[12:06] hello [01:24] hey hornbeck , long time :) [01:25] froud: ping [01:47] anybody awake? [01:59] I am around [01:59] hornbeck: how was vegas? [01:59] :) [02:00] vegas was nice [02:00] glad to be home [02:01] how are things for you? [02:08] fine I guess, working alot on the country team stuff, devel, and doc team :) [02:11] sounds like alot [02:12] I wish I had time for Ubuntu stuff right now [02:12] I was busy with work, went on vacation(where I worked alot), now I am back and working alot again [02:14] well I am going back to programming now [02:14] have fun [02:14] what are you programming btw? [04:15] sivang: you still around? === enrico [~enrico@enrico.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:44] Hello! [06:52] enrico: Up early today? ;) [07:18] ChrisH: 14:18 here :) === enrico warns === enrico super warns [07:29] I'm going to do the merge of froud's patches into the svn repository [07:29] Then, I'm going to move everything in the repo inside trunk, and create branch and tags [07:29] I said I'd warn on IRC before doing it [07:29] I assume that most of the people are sleeping now anyway [07:29] ChrisH: BTW, what are you doing awake?~ === enrico loads the smerge gun === enrico shoots [07:50] didn't quite work [07:52] Redoing with plain svn [07:53] DONE [08:02] enrico: Marco was waking up at 4:50 a.m. :( [08:02] enrico: And I couldn't sleep anyway since my dad is in hospital since christmas. Everything is fucked up atm. [08:03] Looks like I have to learn subversion from scratch if I look at all that trunk, head, tag, branch, patch, main stuff. [08:04] What about tags/? Will those snapshots be taken automatically? Or am I supposed to do anything in there? [08:05] branches/ are probably alternatives that could be "merged" somehow if we desire, right? === froud is back (gone 11:43:55) [08:21] African greetings === [froud] [~sean@ndn-165-159-61.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud [~sean@ndn-165-159-61.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:35] African greetings, I'm back had read errors [08:35] Anyone awake [08:38] Only physically... [08:39] In spriit is good [08:40] ChrisH, see my message to the list for help on SVN [08:40] I want to start porting wki to docbook, any idea how to do this [08:41] froud: Ah, thanks for the linx. === enrico lands back here [08:41] no worries [08:41] froud: I only used to run svn without tags and branches because they have scared me always since CVS. :) [08:42] :-) much easier in svn [08:42] ChrisH: oh, with svn is really easy [08:42] froud: I once started a branch in a project (CVS) and no guru could get it merged. [08:42] they're just directories [08:42] see my links in the mail list [08:42] all writers can get training [08:43] The SVN documentation is really very good. I just didn't read everything but only the parts I needed so far. :) [08:43] enrico, I have written to Jane at Canonical to get things moving re hosting [08:44] froud: Had a chance to eval arch/baz? [08:44] ChrisH, try eSvn it makes life sooooo much easier [08:44] yes [08:44] not that difficult [08:44] froud: Better? [08:44] yes and no [08:44] there are +'s and -'s [08:44] froud: oh, ok. Don't stress them too much, though: I'm taking care of that, and maybe they would get bored of having too many requests [08:45] I dont think it will be that hard to get people to port to it [08:45] froud: nothing could be done now as James, the admin of the farm, will be in vacation until the 2nd of January [08:45] enrico, my experience is to push and things will happen [08:45] After the 2nd of January, I'll be back on track [08:45] sure no worries [08:45] we have a working svn now [08:46] froud: your experience has never crossed "pushing James" :) [08:46] thanks to you [08:46] :-) [08:46] Ehi, no problem: John brought it back online, and I just did the reorganization you proposed [08:46] James is cool he gets stuff done if there is a real case for it [08:46] Did you take a look at the changes I made [08:46] Yeah... "pushing" and "James" are not really keywords that fit together. :) [08:47] froud: There is a real case in setting up my DD account after a one-year-waiting-period for him... [08:47] :-) what's the case for it. Is it holding you back on the documents [08:47] although for Canonical related things he is not really so bad [08:48] I like james [08:48] Any suggestions on how to proceed with porting wiki to docbook [08:49] froud: Which parts do you suggest to move? [08:49] WHat stuff do you suggest [08:49] I have only made the userguide valid and well-formed [08:50] the userguide is now ready for working in [08:50] I'm just not sure how much really deserves to be moved to docbook. [08:50] What do you mean? [08:50] It probably does not make sense if we move every piece of information (many wiki pages just consist of a single sentence) into docbook. [08:51] ChrisH, the wiki should only contain stuff about the doc project, how to contribute, where to get source and proposals under consideration, and work to be done [08:51] all other stuff should be in docbook [08:52] wiki is limiting [08:52] hard to revision control [08:52] uhm, wait a sec [08:52] We already discussed that matter on the mailing list some time ago. Just too early to remember what the result was. :) [08:53] The current consensus for the wiki is to make it the platform to which people can dump information with the smallest possible technical barrier [08:53] I propose we work like the GNOME DP [08:53] and how to reuce the load in porting to docbook [08:53] reduce [08:53] wki then db increases overhead [08:54] do the people here know docbook? [08:54] froud: how does the Gnome DP work? [08:54] Everything in svn in docbook [08:54] froud: all the people in the docteam know DocBook, however there's not only the docteam contributing to the Wiki [08:54] Most of the users that use the Wiki have probably not even heard of DocBook yet. [08:55] So, we can affort to have a restricted group of people working on DocBook things, but we can't afford to cut the rest out [08:55] froud: Just remember that most people expect well-formed documents but are not really willing to write some. So it's the job of the Doc Team to get together the bits and pieces and paste everything into meaningful documents. [08:55] Perhaps we can port what there is, then leave a piece where people can dump into wiki and then we will port it asap [08:55] However the task is getting more confusing every day since new people have new ideas, other documents appear that already have done things that it feels like we are redoing everything... [08:56] sure chaos [08:56] that's why you need everything in docbook [08:56] The Wiki will always be a "draft dump". There is not enough manpower to move everything. [08:56] I will decribe the process [08:57] b 4 working on something a writer requests to the list [08:57] froud: I'm a bit scared [08:57] froud: Just look at the recent posts. We have the Newbie guide, the huge user's guide that has been copied together... then our documents. === ChrisH is severely scared [08:57] enrico, ChrisH, no need to be [08:57] we just need a plan [08:57] We've been having so many changes in process, that the last consensus was that no change in process should happen until the moment the first document gets finished [08:58] OK so sections that are finished, we can port them and make them non edit in wiki [08:58] So, it's probably better to postpone new plans to the next planning phase [08:58] froud: Problem is: hardly anything has been accomplished so far. Having big plans is nice... but writers are starting to get desperate because plans tend to get killed every week. [08:58] Current plan is: [08:58] deadline: Hoary [08:59] what's needed: quick guide, "About Ubuntu" [08:59] enrico, remind me what is the deadline for Hoary [08:59] froud: april [08:59] Geeze that is plenty of time [08:59] froud: a bit earlier to allow for translators [08:59] froud: It would be really nice if we could get everybody to work on the DocBook documents. But currently there are mostly people that do the documents "for themselves". So we need a plan that we can handle inside the doc team for now. And we should really try to get everything to sit on the same table. [08:59] No translator will work in tandem [09:00] froud: yes, but we decided to take it easy since the group hasn't produced a single finished document yet :) [09:00] "About Ubuntu" is the page that describes Ubuntu when someone fires up Firefox or Yelp [09:00] Which is not really surprising... [09:00] "QuickGuide" is a 2-page-per-app-with-screenshots intro to all the main applications in Hoary [09:00] We need focus, I am prepared to help [09:00] enrico: Screenshots? I thought we dumped that thought? :) [09:01] ChrisH: oh, did we? I lost that, then [09:01] ChrisH: when has that been discussed? [09:01] ChrisH, they can be used, but In HTML they will not show unless needed [09:01] enrico: I remember we said it's too bad to have english screenshots in a latvian documentation. And the translators can not take new screenshots. [09:01] ChrisH: how annoying :( [09:01] The standard is to reduce the number of screen shots to a minimal [09:02] enrico: I may be wrong though. [09:02] enrico: Translators have probably other things to do then redo screenshots. [09:02] enrico: And look at Hoary currently: since Mataro the menu layout has been changed three times! [09:02] OK we are going in square circles [09:03] ChrisH, change is a good thing [09:03] froud: I don't fear change. [09:03] froud: I just hate doing things one way and then throwing it away. [09:03] The problem is themethods being used [09:03] the methods [09:04] I propose using modular docbook and then creating a driver near the end [09:04] this way we can work and have some degree of abstraction from the changes [09:04] There are a number of methods we can adopt [09:05] 1 [09:05] modular [09:05] 2 [09:05] reuse [09:05] 3 entities [09:05] 4 [09:05] What do you mean by "modular"? Are we writing every piece of information and then include from different xml files? [09:05] collaboration [09:05] yes [09:06] this is correct so no big change [09:06] froud: uhm... [09:06] But the different documents have different focuses. [09:06] 5 profiling [09:06] An explanation of the "user management" function in one document does not fit into another document at all. [09:06] profiling manages that) [09:07] froud: I really suggest you put up a proposal in a Wiki page so that everyone can see it, then we stick to the current consensus until the first document is finished [09:07] froud: else, there is no reasons in having consensuses, if they keep changing all the time [09:07] enrico, it is a good idea, but can I do it on email [09:07] froud: this is the reason why people are so upset by changes recently, so I'd like to keep this one steady [09:08] enrico, do you agree to adopt GDP process and procedure? [09:08] as a base we can ehnace for our own purposes [09:08] froud: sure, go on with mail. Just please make it clear that you propose that for *after* the first document is finished, to avoid people to run away screaming [09:08] froud: It's not that your ideas are bad somehow. You are just rushing a bit too much. There is no professional doc team with 10 years of repository experience. And writers are confused time and again. :) === ChrisH runs away screaming [09:09] Oh so ltes split the team [09:09] lets [09:09] Yeah, right. :) [09:09] one group on wiki [09:09] another on docbook [09:09] Let's split four people into two times two. :) [09:09] does that inlcude me [09:09] I am 2 people :-) [09:09] We are about 6-8 people IIRC. [09:09] froud: GDP is surely something we should keep looking at. However, we're not a similar team, at least in size: we're few, so we may very well go with something more informal [09:10] enrico, the process also works on smaller projects [09:10] I think we lose the power of others in the community [09:10] many people know the docbook route [09:11] it's tried and testes [09:11] tested [09:11] it works [09:11] yet I understand what the problem is [09:11] so I propose a middle route [09:11] is it possible to id things done and finished in wiki [09:11] if yes, I will port them [09:12] they will be made read only in wiki [09:12] all new work will move be done in docbook [09:12] thus we have a handover [09:12] no stop in the work [09:12] those who know dcbook will use it [09:12] those that dont will use wiki [09:13] at some point we will have everything in docbook [09:13] by then people will have had enough time to get familiar with docbook [09:13] froud: no, really, listen to me a sec [09:13] the wiki has to remain === ChrisH ties froud to a chair [09:14] the wiki is to allow anyone from the ubuntu-user list to dump things for the others [09:14] no replacing the wiki at all [09:14] the docteam is a different beast [09:14] the docteam handles svn and docbook [09:14] Our job is mainly to produce readable output for the end-users who are not willing to look up things in the Wiki. They need something they could even print out. [09:15] enrico, the eventual aim is to replace the documents in wiki, I said we should keep wiki as a dump for people who are not technical [09:15] we are agreed [09:15] froud: however, the documents in the docteam are not necessarily a docbook version of the wiki: they have aims and targets [09:15] So, not necessarily everything from the wiki fits in the repository [09:15] froud: Why don't we just leave the wiki like it is and perhaps just tidy up some things. And otoh have a well-formed readable well-maintained document that we ship with Hoary? [09:15] OK [09:16] The wiki is good for taking material, but just when it makes sense for the currently edited documents [09:16] OK but current documents are empty [09:16] froud: Guess why. :) [09:16] everything sits in wiki [09:16] why [09:16] froud: almost empty, yes. That's because most people proposed process changes instead of writing some contents into them [09:17] froud: Because whenever people started to write something the concepts have been moved around. [09:17] And that's why we decided to take a break with process changes and just focus on writing [09:17] OK I am focused on one thing only [09:17] I want a book with Hoary [09:17] that's my goal [09:17] QuickGuide [09:17] that's the easy target [09:17] I hope it is the teams to [09:17] User's Guide is the less easy target [09:17] OK qg [09:18] actually to me its the same thing [09:18] froud: I'm looking up for a better description of the quick guide [09:18] froud: hang on a sec [09:18] enrico, not in label (name) [09:19] let me explain [09:19] The quick guide should be derived from selected sources already inthe user guide [09:19] froud: wait. [09:19] froud: listen to me [09:19] froud: the quick guide has been designed during the docteam meeting at the conf [09:20] froud: I'm looking up the mail that describes it [09:20] yes that is fine I am not proposong any change to it [09:20] froud: The quick guide is something *completely* different than the user's guide. [09:20] enrico, ChrisH, I have a way to kill 2 birds with one stone [09:21] belive me I am not sitting here burning my fingers without having given this some thought :-) [09:21] bare with me [09:21] I know I am pushing hard [09:22] it is difficult to convey these things on irc [09:22] froud: http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2004-December/000736.html [09:22] but I wantto discuss before I submit a proposal to the list [09:22] Please read that mail (although it's not on the Quick Guide) [09:23] Ok, I just read it [09:23] it does not change what I am saying [09:23] think technical [09:23] dont think in terms of books etc [09:24] think XML [09:24] There is an amount of overlap between all books [09:24] they all are centered on the same subject [09:24] ubuntu [09:24] agreed [09:24] ? [09:25] Nope. [09:25] They all talk about Ubuntu, yes, and they will probably overlap in the "What is the meaning of Ubuntu" part, but not in much more [09:25] Ok [09:25] I see something different [09:26] hold let me show you an example of a profile [09:26] Yep. [09:26] froud: ..we..already..have..a..damn..idea..on..the..contents..of..those..books.. [09:26] Wait... I'll paste that into the channel. :) [09:26] However, that said, please go on [09:27] Good we have the irclog. [09:27] I'll send Mark a link to our conversation. That will get us all fired. :) [09:27] [09:27] qg - quick guide [09:27] ug = user guide [09:28] the chapter introduction is marked for inclusion in the ug and qg [09:28] take ug out and it will only be inlcuded in the qg [09:29] This example for images [09:29] an html and pdf file for each target [09:29] [09:29] [09:29] [09:29] [09:29] [09:29] [09:29] [09:29] [09:29] [09:29] [09:29] note [09:29] [09:29] fo = xsl:fo [09:29] short = short version of a book [09:30] end [09:30] I can have multiple books in a single set of files [09:30] I can derive each book in multiple formats from those files [09:31] Theefectis that all books are worked at the same time [09:31] the dev cycle is reduced [09:31] you can put priority on any book you like [09:32] end === froud shuts up :-) [09:33] I see [09:34] I don't think we have a need for that now [09:34] But it's worth saving the idea [09:34] Might be useful for later on, when the set of documents we manage will be more complex [09:35] I suggest you wrap that up in a proposal and add it to https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamWishList [09:36] After the first document finally gets finished, we can go through that list and take the good ideas to improve our way of doing things [09:37] Before that, we should just do things, so that we can see if and how our way of doing things actually works, and where it needs to be changed [09:37] Ok [09:38] so how do we know what can go into docbook and what cannot === froud is focused on putting stuff into docbook, will not add to the confusion on wiki [09:40] are there sections that can move to docbook? [09:41] enrico, what we do in docbook has little baring on what's happening in wiki, right [09:42] I see a few nice sections on wiki that IMHO are ready to be used [09:42] Something under http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ApplicationHowTos can probably be recycled for the QuickGuide, but paying lots of attention at the change in nature [09:43] Those are Howtos, the Quick Guide is a short intro [09:43] To give you an example of the Quick Guide, take the "wget" manpage: you want to download an entire website, and someone tells you to use wget, right? [09:44] Ok, that's good I will make quick guide xml valid and well-formed [09:44] then you do "man wget" and you see all sort of options. You get to the end of the manpage, and you still don't know how to download a website, although you know tons of ways to tweak the process [09:44] yes I know wget :-) [09:45] so you are saying that the howtos can be ported? [09:45] If the quick guide had 2 pages on wget, it would say: "Wget is the tool to download websites. To download a full website with wget, use wget --no-parent -l0 -r . If you want to browse it locally, add "-k" [09:46] ok [09:46] This is the idea. Every howto can be mined for useful information, but the howtos are usually not laid out in that way [09:46] So, probably few of them can be ported as they are. But they can indeed be used for inspiration [09:46] yes, they are designed for the mmore technical :-) [09:46] man pages I mean [09:47] Ok next question [09:47] how to get the wiki sources in one go so I can labor :-) [09:48] ALL of the wiki? Uhm... dunno if that is at all possible :( [09:48] Hope you understand, the documents on this url are individual files do I have to manually copy paste [09:49] Yes, I understand what you mean. [09:49] once I have the files I will have to find a parser that can help me in transforming this stuff to xml [09:49] Probably, the best option is to just start writing, keeping related wiki pages on one side just for referencing and inspiration [09:50] writing? It's already written I preffer to automate a port and then edit [09:51] You'll probably find one or two wiki pages that are really ok without almost rewriting them, so it'll probably be faster to go on and write [09:51] Im missing something [09:52] you want to hack out all the stuff and have just small snippets left [09:52] yo, no wonder nothing is finished :-) [09:53] How do you propose to make short http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/SSHHowto [09:53] uhm... what many people are probably missing is that the main goal of the team is writing, not programming :( === enrico loads ssh howto [09:53] fine but somebody must do the programming [09:54] What is there to be programmed? [09:54] The docbook application :-) [09:54] froud: we don't necessarily need programming at all: we're writing documentation, after all :) [09:54] Doing the framework and Makefiles can be done as we go. [09:54] Docbook is an XML application === ChrisH dreams of having all available documentation (from the chinese guy... can't remember the name) into a single document [09:55] its not trivial to do it right, otherwise everyone woul dbe doing it [09:55] froud: You probably would like to screw DocBook/XML and write an own UbuntuBook/XML, right? :) [09:55] no [09:55] Docbook is the standard for OSS [09:56] Well, our idea is to just take DocBook as it is and put contents between the [09:56] the community knows docbook [09:56] Someone else is taking care of improving DocBook for us right now as we speak, and we don't want to interfere :) [09:56] DocBook is as much standard for OSS as Microsoft Word is for letters. [09:56] can I have visability into this [09:56] de-facto... but still people are free to use what they like [09:57] seems everyone is doing something but but there is little or no visability. Contrary to OSS [09:58] froud: what do you intend for visibility here? [09:58] you say somebody is doing something on docbook where can I see it [10:01] froud: in the DocBook developers websites :) [10:01] enrico how did you apply my patch. there are files missing [10:02] global.ent and xinclude.mod [10:02] these files are dependancies for the valid docs [10:02] I'll check [10:03] they should be in / [10:05] froud: I forgot to svn add them after applying the patch: I've just committed them in [10:05] do an svn update and you'll find them [10:06] Ok thanks === froud is away: Off doing something else === froud is back (gone 00:12:32) === ChrisH is still here (just so that everyone knows) === Cturtle [~Cturtle@a213-84-50-38.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:54] Hello Cturtle! [10:55] enrico, the about section of the user guide and quick guide are going to be the same right? [10:55] Uh, not necessarily. I imagine that the Quick Guide one will be much shorter [10:56] They have the same files and outlines at present, at least in the xml [10:56] However, for the user's guide things you should ask Hornbeck, and for the quick guide things you should ask plovs [10:57] Yes, they have the same files because the quickguide has been started as a fork of the user's guide. but the contents are not going to be the same [10:57] ok I will leave it as is [11:36] I'm here for a while, 'sup people? === enrico goes making sushi [11:38] Then it's dinnertime [11:40] sivang, shalom [11:41] See you later! [11:41] froud: Boker tov froud :) [11:43] I am heading towards the kitchen to grab something to eat, be back later.. [11:49] Hmm all this talk about food is making me hungry [11:55] back :) [11:55] It's hot I think I will have a swim after lunch [12:02] sivang: reshalom [12:02] I've just been to our cantina. No longer hungry. :( === froud sinks teeth into turkey sandwhich [12:14] ChrisH: how's your dad? [12:15] I was terribly upset to hear what you told me last night..I hope he's ok now [12:15] sivang: No news yet. I hope the doctors tell soemthing useful today. [12:15] sivang: Well... he can't feel half of his body. I wonder why the hospital staff waited until today. Idiots. === sid77 [~sid77@ppp-143-162.30-151.libero.it] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:16] hi [12:16] ChrisH: I just recently was shocked to find out, that doctors are not what I depicted when I was a child... [12:17] ChrisH: the basically don't know shit, and can only probe with trial and error , recalling all the tests I've done and still feeling bad, they say "dunno" [12:17] ChrisH: at this advnaced times when you have network packaets flowing on the airwaves you would think that they something with all this dvanced gear they have, but nada. === froud is away: Off doing something else === cenerentola [~cenerento@84.222.38.7] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:59] sivang: in these advanced times with network packets flowing, programmers still fix bugs by trial and errors as well, and they end up in saying "dunno" :( [01:00] enrico_dinner: hmm right...so guss dox should be no exception..:-( [01:00] that's also what physics do [01:00] going out. see you later [01:03] laterz === froud is back (gone 00:53:06) === jiyuu0 [~jiyuu0@219.95.243.59] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:13] enrico_out, kawabunga!!! when you get back please apply my patches for bugs 5008 [https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5008] and 5012 [https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5012] . Thanks [02:16] froud: yo [02:16] froud: There is some problem with the user guide, [02:16] sivang: morning [02:16] it won't open in yelp [02:16] hornbeck: hey john, 'sup buddy? [02:16] working [02:16]