[02:38] <enrico> hornbeck: hello!  Aroud?
[02:50] <sivang> enrico: hey
[02:50] <sivang> enrico: it's me
[02:50] <sivang> :)
[02:52] <enrico> Hello sivang !
[02:53] <sivang> hey enrico ! since you went to taiwan we hardly talk :)
[02:53] <sivang> enrico: got my email?
[02:55] <sivang> enrico: I see you've been reworking bits of my wiki pages recently
[02:55] <sivang> :)
[02:58] <enrico> sivang: got your e-mail
[02:59] <enrico> sivang: reworking your wiki pages?  Which ones?  I mainly did lots of reparenting
[03:01] <sivang> enrico: just little additions here and there :) , are we still using them btw?
[03:04] <enrico> sivang: which pages are you mentioning?
[03:06] <sivang> eh right, mostly you are now compiling stuff from those pages into the faq?
[03:09] <enrico> sivang: just taken a bit for the "what is the documentation team"
[03:10] <sivang> enrico: ok, nice btw :) 
[03:43] <enrico> sivang: are you busy now?
[03:43] <enrico> sivang: if you have time, would you like to help me out with the Docteam FAQ?
[03:45] <enrico> Doh!  I hit C+A+Backspace
[03:47] <enrico> sivang: if you replied to me, I lost your answer
[03:48] <sivang> enrico: I will happily, but going to sleep now , almost 24 hours of no sleep..
[03:48] <sivang> tommorow?
[03:49] <sivang> night!
[03:50] <enrico> sivang: 24 hours?  ARGH!
[03:50] <enrico> Sure!  Tomorrow!
[03:50] <enrico> Take a rest by all means!  Good night!
[06:55] <froud> African Greetings
[06:57] <enrico> hello froud!
[06:57] <froud> morning
[06:57] <enrico> good afternoon
[06:58] <froud> 07:51
[06:58] <froud> I see people are doing commits that's good. Now I have conflicks diff3 here I come
[07:00] <enrico> Conflicts with my commit?  I thought I did only really minor things
[07:00] <enrico> Hope nothing too hard
[07:00] <froud> Dunno I must have a look. Never a problem let SVN take care of it
[07:00] <froud> that's why we have svn
[07:00] <froud> :-)
[07:01] <froud> SVN Goooooooood
[07:01] <enrico> SVN is good!
[07:02] <froud> Hmmm yes. "Fortune Favours the Bold"
[07:02] <enrico> Is it possible to hook meld into svn to solve conflicts?
[07:02] <enrico> meld is also really good!
[07:02] <froud> never tried it
[07:03] <enrico> apt-get install meld
[07:03] <enrico> meld filea.txt fileb.txt
[07:04] <enrico> it's really cute.
[07:09] <enrico> http://meld.sourceforge.net/
[07:11] <froud> enrico, should work its just a diff tools
[07:28] <froud> enrico, nice you have puut commnets in with links to possible content
[07:29] <froud> this is a good method, perhaps everyone should use it. I will give people an idea of where they can do things
[07:30] <froud> enrico, did you try' the make'
[07:32] <enrico> Trying make...
[07:32] <enrico> new laptop is missing software.  apt-get install xsltproc...
[07:32] <enrico> warning: failed to load external entity "/usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/xhtml/chunk.xsl"
[07:32] <enrico> let me search for it
[07:33] <froud> this is the problem with the paths I made a bugzilla for
[07:33] <froud> you did not want to apply it caus eit would break build
[07:33] <froud> look in libs/html-cust.xsl
[07:33] <froud> you will find an xsl:import that is commented
[07:34] <froud> uncommnet it and comment the other xsl:import
[07:35] <froud> the problem is that different machines are at different versions so the docbook xsl is in diiiferent places
[07:35] <froud> your machine must be new, cause it uses the new location for the docbook xsl's
[07:35] <froud> I am hoping to fix this with catalogs
[07:36] <enrico> uhm, not necessarily.  It may just be that the new laptop lacks the docbook-xsl package (installing now)
[07:36] <enrico> silly me, it was even listed among the dependencies in debian/control :)
[07:37] <froud> oh dear I assume you have these installed
[07:37] <froud> catalogs will help though
[07:37] <froud> export XML_CATALOG_FILES=file:///tools/catalog.xml
[07:37] <enrico> Now it warns about something that looks like xincludes included twice
[07:37] <froud> each person will just need to export this
[07:37] <froud> yes thisis another bug for xml base
[07:38] <froud> I will patch it
[07:38] <froud> but its not a blocker
[07:38] <enrico> Still going on.  Quite slow, it's probably accessing stuff from Oasis website
[07:38] <froud> is it doing http requests
[07:38] <enrico> netstat confirms
[07:39] <froud> you need to install docbook 4.3
[07:39] <enrico> what's exporting XML_CATALOG_FILES for?  avoiding http requests?
[07:39] <froud> people have docbook dtd and xsl's in various places
[07:39] <froud> with catalogs they can do this and we dont care
[07:39] <enrico> In debian sid, it works without exporting XML_CATALOG_FILES
[07:39] <froud> they just export to their env
[07:40] <froud> you are using sid
[07:40] <froud> now
[07:45] <froud> I have created https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5067 and assigned myself
[07:45] <froud> to use xml catalogs
[07:47] <enrico> It should be possible to just put "XML_CATALOG_FILES=file:///tools/catalog.xml" and make should automatically export it to child processes
[07:47] <froud> well we can do it in the make or people can add it their env
[07:47] <enrico> Uhm, maybe it's the opposite?  Let me check
[07:48] <enrico> it's the opposite.  let's see how to export make vars...
[07:48] <froud> the problem is that the catalog.xml may be in different places
[07:49] <enrico> ok.  Just adding "export <varname>" in the makefile exports it to children
[07:49] <froud> on different systems
[07:49] <enrico> do we have a list of the possible places?
[07:49] <froud> not really
[07:49] <froud> but we can start   by collecting a few catalog files from people
[07:50] <froud> they can add the files as attachment in bugzilla
[07:50] <froud> to https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5067
[07:50] <froud> then I will add their files to our libs/
[07:50] <froud> named per os
[07:50] <froud> distro
[07:51] <froud> that way a person can just export the path to our catalogs
[07:51] <froud> what do you think
[07:51] <enrico> moment.  Toilet then I'll be back with a makefile snippet that tries various locations
[07:51] <froud> even better
[08:08] <enrico> froud: here it is:
[08:08] <enrico> CANDS=\
[08:08] <enrico>         /etc/passwa \
[08:08] <enrico>         /etc/passwb \
[08:08] <enrico>         /etc/passwc \
[08:08] <enrico>         /etc/passwd
[08:08] <enrico> ifexists=$(shell test -e $(file) && echo $(file))
[08:08] <enrico> PASSWD=$(firstword $(foreach file,$(CANDS),$(ifexists)))
[08:08] <enrico> $(warning $(PASSWD))
[08:09] <enrico> export PASSWD if you want children to have that in their environment
[08:10] <enrico> I can add it to the makefile, if you're not working on it at the moment
[08:10] <froud> looks good go for it :-)
[08:10] <enrico> groan... in the meantime, the documentation is still building
[08:10] <enrico> is it possible to make it point to a local copy of those oasis things?
[08:10] <froud> I am writing the stuff for the docbook part of wiki
[08:11] <froud> yes we can inlcude the dtd and xsl in th erepos
[08:11] <froud> but most people should have it installed
[08:11] <froud> yelp does not need this stuff
[08:11] <froud> its only for us to buld html
[08:12] <enrico> Is it this thing that it's being downloaded now all the time? /usr/share/xml/docbook/schema/dtd/4.3/catalog.xml
[08:13] <froud> no its the dtd
[08:13] <froud> xsltproc loads the dtd to get all entities
[08:13] <froud> you can switch this optin off
[08:14] <enrico> ok
[08:14] <froud> see xsltproc --novalid
[08:14] <froud> but then xsltproc will not moan if the files are invalid
[08:15] <enrico> ok.  Now, another question: what default value should use for the catalog search?  I mean, what is the value used for XML_CATALOG_FILES when XML_CATALOG_FILES is not found in the environment?
[08:15] <froud> hold
[08:21] <froud> enrico, its different on systems
[08:21] <froud> let me see if there is a standard approach somewhere
[08:26] <froud> enrico, I have /usr/share/sgml/docbook/dtd/4.3/catalog.xml
[08:26] <froud> if you hav ethe same then its good
[08:58] <enrico> froud: hello back.  I have it in a different location, but in my system it works anyway.  I committed a makefile that searches both locations
[08:59] <froud> OK will test it in awhile I want to finish the docbook wiki docs
[08:59] <enrico> However, I fear I'm breaking more than I solve, as it seems that distributions have a way of properly configuring the lookup path for the catalogs
[08:59] <enrico> sure
[08:59] <froud> yes we need a constant method
[09:00] <froud> I will look into it
[09:33] <froud> enrico, what was the command for commiters to do a first time checkout from svn?
[09:35] <ChrisH> froud: should have been "svn co http://69.155.172.150/faq/trunk"
[09:38] <ChrisH> enrico: Ah, very good, sir. The change is for you.
[09:39] <froud> ChrisH, hi. I mean for commiters
[09:39] <froud> commiters
[09:39] <froud> http://user.name@69.155.172.150/faq/trunk
[09:40] <ChrisH> froud: nope... you should get asked for the username and password during your first commit IIRC
[09:40] <abelli> enrico: hot, creamy cappuccino in Taiwan?
[09:40] <abelli> good morning everyone
[09:40] <froud> morning
[09:41] <froud> ChrisH, not sure about that
[09:41] <enrico> abelli: you'd be surprised
[09:42] <ChrisH> The taiwanese cappu can't be any worse than what I have on my desk.
[09:42] <abelli> enrico: well...
[09:42] <froud> is it not better to do svn co http://username@69.155.172.150/faq/trunk and then enter user and pass when prompted on first checkout
[09:42] <ChrisH> . o O ( if only the machines wouldn't be so expensive ) O o .
[09:42] <ChrisH> froud: I didn't need it. The repository is readable for everyone anyway. And the check-in prompt automatically.
[09:43] <enrico> Turns out one of the guys at the local LUG is a coffee fanatic
[09:43] <abelli> enrico
[09:43] <froud> ChrisH, OK
[09:48] <enrico> http://lento.uncasino.it/enrico/store/ProfessionalToni.jpg
[09:48] <enrico> For people who don't believe me
[09:52] <abelli> ...im off ciao
[10:48] <sivang> morning alll
[10:48] <enrico> Morning sivang !
[10:48] <froud> boker
[10:48] <sivang> morning froud  :) 
[10:48] <sivang> morning enrico!
[10:49] <sivang> any news?
[10:49] <abelli> ciao
[10:49] <froud> working ;-)
[10:49] <enrico> sivang: ehi, I posted like 10 messages in the list, and you ask me "any news?" :)
[10:49] <froud> abelli, going so soon
[10:50] <sivang> hehe
[10:50] <sivang> enrico: ok, I'll fire up mutt. I pretty used to it although using only "q" arrows and enter, m and y and d 
[10:50] <sivang> :)
[10:51] <sivang> enrico: but it makes you much more productive then when using evo or mozmail
[10:51] <sivang> :)
[10:52] <enrico> eh.  Now you have to learn how to use 'l'
[10:52] <enrico> 'l' and 'o' ROCK!
[10:52] <sivang> what does l and o do?
[10:52] <sivang> enrico: btw, youre muttrc rocks!
[10:53] <sivang> easy color , navigation 
[10:53] <enrico> 'l' is 'limit'.  It allows you to filter messages.  For example, l enrico  shows you only messages having to do with me
[10:53] <abelli> hey ppl... daniels didnt sleep for some night to get x.org working..
[10:53] <abelli> why not thunderbird
[10:53] <abelli> it's so... so... graphical..
[10:53] <sivang> abelli: when you get used to mutt, you'll understand :)
[10:53] <enrico> Then you can use modifiers: "l ~f enrico" shows messages FROM me; "l ~b Sivan" shows messages that talk about you, and so on
[10:53] <ChrisH> Outlook 2003 is also very graphical. :P
[10:54] <sivang> ChrisH: ;-)
[10:54] <abelli> well.. why not pine then?
[10:54] <enrico> ~h header, ~t "to".  Then you do "l ~=" to see duplicated messages and "l ~F" to see messages you flagged important
[10:54] <ChrisH> License issues. :)
[10:54] <abelli> or just an mta
[10:54] <sivang> enrico: lemme try those :)
[10:54] <enrico> Important: "l ." to remove the filter
[10:54] <sivang> enrico: if I have an ssh key, i need just to copy it to the host machine and it will grant me access?
[10:55] <sivang> enrico: I am alrady using this pub ssh key to access 2 other machines..
[10:55] <enrico> sivang: yes (the public key part, obviously).  You can use ssh-copy-id for it: it's much easier and less error-prone
[10:55] <sivang> enrico: why thank you yet for another piece of unix knowhow!
[10:56] <sivang> btw people, enrico's traffic summaries are superb.
[10:56] <ChrisH> ...and dangerous...
[10:56] <enrico> ChrisH: ehi, you were a hero in yesterday's one!
[10:57] <ChrisH> enrico: Because I did a simple commit of a few lines in the README? :)
[10:57] <sivang> hehe, what could you ask for more? there's some comedy, moral, tips, tricks and well, important stuff we tend to forget now and then.
[10:57] <sivang> it's like the perfect sequal for the family to watch on holidays
[10:58] <ChrisH> sivang: Is there a TV channel for the Doc Team already? :)
[10:58] <enrico> I'm mounting the transmitter antenna now as I speak :)
[10:58] <ChrisH> enrico: I'm happy if the first sentence is not "ChrisH complained..." :)
[10:58] <enrico> ChrisH: come on.  Let me find it for you
[10:59] <enrico> ChrisH: http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2004-December/000824.html look for "ChrisH answered in detail"
[11:01] <sivang> "..many people have been talking to
[11:01] <sivang> 	  screw everything that has been worked on and do it
[11:01] <sivang> 	  differently
[11:01] <sivang> "
[11:01] <sivang> :)
[11:01] <sivang> very good :
[11:01] <sivang> Wiki is more a draft place or a place to organise. I think
[11:01] <sivang>           it's okay for that purpose
[11:01] <sivang> I think this should be quoted for future generation so they'll know what mistakes to avoid.
[11:03] <sivang> and I like this also :"
[11:03] <sivang> Let's be open-minded. If it's nice, let's use it. Some aspects
[11:03] <sivang>           are pretty neat.
[11:05] <ChrisH> enrico: Okay, I'm convinced. :)
[11:06] <abelli> can someone suggest a free antivirus for win32?
[11:06] <enrico> abelli: Ubuntu
[11:06] <abelli> ...dont swear... just remind the meaning of ubuntu :)
[11:07] <abelli> enrico: i know.. that.. im just installing it.. with my brand new fatx module..
[11:07] <abelli> but the owner of the computer has many visual c++ programs..
[11:07] <enrico> abelli: install ubuntu into a vmware box and stop using windoes :)
[11:08] <abelli> and win32 will be around until the porting under unix will be finished..
[11:08] <abelli> enrico: im sorry im win32 free since september 2002
[11:09] <abelli> never ever handled a ms product until sunday
[11:10] <sivang> abelli: fatx module?
[11:12] <abelli> yep.. fatx is the fs used by xbox
[11:12] <abelli> its part of the project RULE... Run Ubuntu Linux Everywhere
[11:13] <sivang> abelli: wowo cooool
[11:13] <sivang> so you have an xbox running ubuntu?
[11:13] <abelli> yes nice...
[11:13] <abelli> sivang: absolutely not.. 
[11:13] <enrico> abelli: You should publish something about that, like a Wiki page or something like that
[11:13] <abelli> enrico: don't worry.. it's not ready.
[11:14] <abelli> it's the first module ever written by me..
[11:14] <abelli> i changed my nick... only because i used "abelli" in it... 
[11:14] <abelli> and when i released it to testers...
[11:14] <abelli> it was too late..
[11:15] <abelli> to change. in some weeks it'll be public.
[11:16] <abelli> im also waiting for mako approval.. RULE is a bit temporary as name
[11:18] <abelli> what about clamav?
[11:25] <sivang> abelli: so you know how to hack kernel modules code....
[11:25] <abelli> sivang: it's the first module.
[11:25] <abelli> sivang: im far away from ppl like fabbione, mjg
[11:25] <sivang> abelli: I'd settle for this, believe me.
[11:26] <sivang> does RULE has a website yet?
[11:27] <abelli> actually is just a groupware at ubuntuitalia.org/gware or sth like that..
[11:27] <sivang> abelli: when was the project started?
[11:27] <abelli> a week before mataro'
[11:28] <sivang> abelli: where do you learn to hack kernel modules?
[11:29] <abelli> don't use hack.. im far before that point:
[11:29] <sivang> abelli: hey! an Idea! why to use M$'s crappy fs, and not plain ext3/xfs/reiser whatever linux support?
[11:29] <abelli> starting with k&R the c programming language, The Linux Kernel, 2.4 Kernel Internals,
[11:30] <abelli> and a bit of embedding linux di hollabaugh
[11:30] <sivang> abelli: don't get modest on me! A guy who enjoyes sovling descrete math problem, kernel hacking is nothing big to him :))
[11:30] <sivang> abelli: I tried sometime ago to read 2.4, but if you use 2.6, how does it help you? or not much has changed?
[11:31] <abelli> well.. i need to get into the mood of something..
[11:31] <abelli> just consider i never used c before..
[11:31] <abelli> it was like "divide et impera" [or whatever it is..:)] 
[11:31] <sivang> abelli: that's exactly what I was talking about :)
[11:32] <sivang> abelli: devide and conquer?
[11:32] <abelli> yes...ok... let's leave apart compliments when i'll marry 
[11:32] <abelli> Cat Zeta Jones
[11:33] <sivang> abelli: heheheh :)
[11:34] <sivang> abelli: I'd prefer Jessica Alba, Cameron Diaz, Mel lisboa? :)
[11:34] <abelli> Cameron is WonderFul..
[11:34] <abelli> but let's be productive...
[11:35] <abelli> otherwise enrico'll get crossed.. 
[11:35] <sivang> abelli: right :)
[11:35] <abelli> and we don't want enrico to get crossed right ;)
[11:35] <sivang> abelli: ofcourse not!
[11:35] <sivang> enrico: how do I set mutt to use my ssh keys?
[11:37] <sivang> froud: ping
[11:39] <enrico> sivang: mutt to use ssh?  To do what?
[11:39] <sivang> enrico: do impas using the ssh keys
[11:40] <sivang> enrico: instead of asking me the password everytime
[11:40] <enrico> sivang: ah, oh, yes.  Uhm... look for "preauth" in mutt's documentation
[11:41] <enrico> tunnel="ssh -q mailhost.net /usr/local/libexec/imapd"
[11:41] <enrico> "preauth" is a good search key in mutt's documentation
[11:42] <sivang> not in the man page..
[11:42] <sivang> going to the web docs
[11:42] <enrico> sivang: /usr/share/doc/mutt/manual.txt.gz
[11:46] <froud> Uh Humm
[11:46] <froud> enrico
[11:46] <froud> ChrisH, 
[11:47] <enrico> froud: yes?
[11:47] <froud> sivang, 
[11:47] <froud> OK I have my document ready
[11:47] <froud> need to discuss
[11:47] <sivang> froud: here
[11:47] <froud> ChrisH, wanted me to fix https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocBook
[11:47] <froud> me thinks my document replaces most of this 
[11:47] <sivang> enrico: looks it doesn't care to explain much how to use it, just add this to the mutrrc file?
[11:48] <froud> do I add a new page or do I modify the exiting one 
[11:48] <enrico> sivang: should just need to add that, yes
[11:48] <froud> my doc replaces about 90%
[11:49] <enrico> froud: You can rename the current page to OldDocBook and make a new DocBook; then link OldDocBook in it
[11:49] <froud> Hmm link old docbook to it
[11:49] <froud> maybe the other way around
[11:50] <froud> no matter well sort it
[12:00] <sivang> froud: we should port the tsf's learn linux admin guide to ubuntu from debian 3.0 :)
[12:01] <froud> do you know ho wto create a debian spec file
[12:02] <sivang> froud: spec file? I am not sure..
[12:02] <enrico> I'm sorry I'm ignorant with rpm packaging
[12:02] <froud> what about deb
[12:06] <enrico> I do debs :)
[12:09] <ChrisH> froud: Does it replace most of it really? I think we need something which is customised for the doc team work.
[12:32] <froud> ChrisH, see https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/AboutTheUbuntuCoreDocumentationProject
[12:32] <froud> draft in progress
[12:32] <froud> btw does anyone want to fomat it I dont know the Z wki stuff
[12:32] <froud> :-)
[12:33] <froud> enrico, I want to packaged the project at http://learnlinux.tsf.org.za. Perhaps you can make a deb spec and create the package
[12:37] <froud> how to markup headings ?
[12:38] <froud> ah ha,  I see said the blind man to the deaf mute
[12:41] <froud> Hmm not good. How to make sub headings
[12:42] <froud> ah ha,  I see said the blind man to the deaf mute
[12:44] <froud> much beetter
[12:52] <sivang> froud: please use moin markup
[12:52] <sivang> we already agreed about it
[12:52] <sivang> if you use rest markup, some people wouldn't be able to modifiy your pages if they need to.
[12:56] <sivang> froud: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/AboutTheUbuntuCoreDocumentationProject must be abbrivated before it can be really used, we shouldn't force our contributor to read so long pages..they will have to suffer enough with the docbook and other core utils guides..
[12:56] <froud> wont my formatting help ?
[12:57] <sivang> froud: I feel that we need to create a DocteamProcedures page, just like the HoaryProcedures page, and seperate the technicalities from the description of the project goals aims and responsibility.
[12:58] <sivang> froud: this is what I was trying to do with my first pages, so we got the /UDP page and /HowDoc from where we could probably link to technical instructions and prequisities IMHO
[12:58] <sivang> enrico?
[12:58] <sivang> ChrisH: ?
[12:58] <sivang> (oppinions)
[12:58] <froud> Well that's is good, but for now I dont have a big picture, so am juts putting it here. 
[12:58] <sivang> froud: ok, maybe we can afterwards devide and conquer
[12:59] <froud> sure I put this page here so long cause people wnated something like this. The content is there now. We can use it as we please.
[01:00] <sivang> froud: :)
[01:01] <froud> I still need to add things like how the repos is structured, how to make, what is globale.ent etc. But I think this is another page
[01:03] <sivang> froud: yes sure, this could be the docteam procedures overview page.
[01:03] <sivang> ideally, I would opt for pages that are as big as this : https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocBook
[01:04] <sivang> and try to give as much useful info in as must less size, so we won't loose pople on account of reading long articles,
[01:04] <sivang> wiki is good for some very _specific_ uses,
[01:04] <sivang> for all the others,
[01:04] <sivang> it sucks badly.
[01:04] <sivang> :)
[01:05] <sivang> when someone is enough interested int he UDP, he should probably read the docbook guide to the docteam
[01:05] <sivang> :)
[01:05] <sivang> using the wiki for organization and plannig is actually pretty ok IMHO
[01:07] <sivang> Now that I know that (from you) this doc is not the most accurate that I can find for using docbook, but it set me up starting early , and made me enthusiastic about docbook
[01:13] <froud> ok dudes, that's it for me for today. I must do some paying work :-)
[01:13] <froud> b c'ing ya
[01:14] <sivang> froud: katerz
[01:14] <sivang> eh, laterz
[01:17] <enrico> froud: I can create the debian/directory for the http://learnlinux.tsf.org.za if you want: just send me the released tarball
[01:18] <enrico> sivang: I would avoid to create yet another page for now, and maybe just use the FAQ until an entry becomes so long that it spins off
[01:18] <sivang> enrico: do man install-docs ---> this _is_ what we were loooking for _all_ our rigsteration needs.
[01:19] <sivang> enrico: that is , against scrollkeeper, doc-base, whtever
[01:19] <sivang> :)
[01:19] <enrico> cool!
[01:20] <sivang> yes :) it's amazing what a "go install doc-base source" instruction can teach yoiu :)
[01:20] <enrico> so cold there?
[01:21] <sivang> actually, it's 20C outside,
[01:21] <sivang> but the house is like _frozen
[01:21] <sivang> we can't seem to let the heat from the inside get in,
[01:21] <sivang> which is a plus on summer time.
[01:22] <sivang> enrico: this depend line should also be added to facilitate for install-docs
[01:22] <sivang>  ${perl:Depends}, scrollkeeper, libunicode-string-perl
[01:25] <sivang> however the rules file, I would have to read the whole make manual to understand
[01:53] <enrico> sivang: you tell me what you want the rules file to do and I can try and tell you how to do it
[01:53] <enrico> (but then, it's always good to read the whole make manual anyway)
[01:54] <sivang> enrico: I'll read the manual, I want to know how to make pure debian build script that , really rulez :)
[01:57] <sivang> enrico: that doesn't use cryptic cddbs :)
[01:58] <enrico> sivang: you're welcome to use debhelper
[01:58] <enrico> sivang: maybe it's better to start with debhelper and then see
[01:59] <enrico> cdbs is a great tool, but maybe it's great only when you know well what's happening
[01:59] <ChrisH> Perhaps one should only start to use cdbs when it's clear what debhelper does. :)
[02:00] <sivang> enrico: sounds like it , yes.
[03:40] <froud> under what license do we release documentation?
[03:45] <froud> FDL or Creative Common ShareAlike 2.0 ?
[03:47] <hornbeck> I think they where talking CC
[03:48] <froud> anyone second that?
[03:50] <froud> Is it not better to use FDL for our purpose?
[03:50] <hornbeck> in all honesty, I could care less about license
[03:50] <hornbeck> as long as it is free for others to use
[03:50] <froud> I want to add the LICENSE file to root of trunk
[03:50] <hornbeck> right
[03:51] <sivang> froud: gfdl
[03:51] <hornbeck> sivang: really?
[03:52] <sivang> froud: canonical wants GFDL basically, but each writer can decided per his doc
[03:52] <sivang> hornbeck: yes :)
[03:52] <hornbeck> I thought Enrico sent a email saying we where using CC
[03:52] <sivang> hornbeck: hmm
[03:52] <hornbeck> let me check the mail log
[03:52] <froud> please thanks
[03:52] <sivang> This is what I recall from the c0nference
[03:52] <sivang> :)
[03:52] <sivang> Mark also said that I think.
[03:52] <froud> sivang, we need to decide on one lic
[03:53] <froud> two is just a way to problems
[03:53] <froud> IMHO GFDL is better for our purpose
[03:53] <sivang> froud: this is something also longly discussed before you joined us :) They said each writer can use his own license on docs he's creating it, by they'd prefer GFDL
[03:53] <froud> Dont get me wrong I like CC SA but I dont think it is right in this case
[03:53] <sivang> GFDL present obvious barriers for debian if they want to use our works..
[03:54] <hornbeck> I am not finding it
[03:54] <froud> What barriers
[03:54] <froud> Ubuntu is under GPL right?
[03:54] <froud> or is it lesser
[03:55] <hornbeck> gpl
[03:55] <froud> so GFDL compliment GPL
[03:55] <enrico> hornbeck: sivang does not read e-mail, it's widely known :)
[03:55] <froud> http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html
[03:55] <hornbeck> I guess :-)
[03:56] <froud> I see no obsticalss for Debian to use this lic
[03:56] <enrico> sivang: http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2004-December/000759.html
[03:58] <enrico> It's been much more time than "before Christmas" as well
[03:58] <enrico> (I have to grab mako for changes to propagate into website documentation)
[03:59] <sivang> enrico: what changes? we can edit some areas of the website.
[04:00] <enrico> sivang: like writing what the license is, possibly even in the wiki edit page
[04:00] <froud> enrico,  I am going to place both lics into the LICENSE FILE this way people can edit it under svn
[04:00] <sivang> enrico: was this decided over in the Mataro sessions? with lulu and freinds?
[04:00] <sivang> enrico: yes :)
[04:01] <enrico> sivang: mako has been talking with sabdfl during the conf, and that is the outcome
[04:01] <froud> guys focus please
[04:01] <sivang> eh great. I should have an RSS feed from my mailboxes..
[04:01] <froud> enrico,  I dont see a bugzilla for this task
[04:01] <enrico> froud: you're right
[04:02] <enrico> I hate bugzilla so much that I can never reach it
[04:02] <froud> do you want to open it or shall I
[04:02] <enrico> I'll give it a try now
[04:02] <froud> please assign to mako and inlcude the link to the message above. thanks
[04:03] <froud> enrico, is the second person that does not like bugzilla
[04:03] <froud> if people dont like it why not change it
[04:03] <froud> but until then please use bugzilla people
[04:04] <sivang> froud: we must be more forgiving by means of our communication and report, or else we would drive away alot of prospective contributors.
[04:04] <froud> its the only way for us to track stuff
[04:04] <sivang> froud: we are awaiting the bug dawn of Malone
[04:04] <sivang> :)
[04:04] <ChrisH> Who hugs me? :)
[04:05] <froud> sivang, no everyone must use bugzilla
[04:05] <sivang> froud: I cannot ask this from people who are interested in contributing,
[04:05] <froud> sivang, you'll thank me when it ocmes near to release date
[04:05] <enrico> froud: well, the idea is that bugzilla will be replaced with malone
[04:05] <sivang> I am allowing them the adjustment time
[04:06] <sivang> ChrisH: where is the gnome-love mumble docteam topic?
[04:06] <froud> If when then, promises
[04:06] <enrico> froud: I hope it happens soon.  In the meantime yes, who can should use mozilla; who can't should as others to use it for them
[04:06] <sivang> ChrisH: we should put it back...:)
[04:06] <enrico> So, if some of you really can't use mozilla, you can drop me a note and I'll do things for you
[04:06] <froud> I dont care how stuff get sthere it just must
[04:06] <sivang> enrico: good
[04:07] <froud> sivang, at this moment nobody knows what who is doing and what who is not doing. There are things nobody is doing
[04:07] <enrico> While I'm here, I'll dump my todo-list into bugzilla
[04:08] <froud> Now you are talking that way we can take a look and see if we can take ownership
[04:08] <froud> for som eof the stuff
[04:08] <froud> team work people, team work
[04:08] <froud> soap
[04:08] <sivang> froud: team work means also catering for the less technically able people :)
[04:09] <froud> sivang, as enrico said ifthey cant then they can ask for help and I am sure we will help +1 to help enrico 
[04:10] <sivang> froud: sure :) sorry for repeating myself.
[04:10] <froud> subject voting system
[04:10] <sivang> voting system?
[04:11] <sivang> politics?!?!
[04:11] <froud> people need to vote on issue
[04:11] <froud> in th email messages it is hard to see who said they will be helping with what
[04:11] <sivang> ok, the wiki is _excellent_ for that.
[04:12] <sivang> it also enables anonymous botes
[04:12] <froud> Short for "I will help" = +1
[04:12] <sivang> votes.
[04:12] <froud> Dont agree -1
[04:12] <froud> Dont care 0
[04:12] <froud> Helps keep messages terse
[04:13] <sivang> ok, prequisitie = must write your name next to you vote,
[04:13] <sivang> to prevent duplicate votes.
[04:14] <froud> Hmm why
[04:14] <froud> you are replying to the message
[04:14] <sivang> OH
[04:14] <sivang> I though if usiung the wikiu for it
[04:14] <froud> email dude email yes that means you must read it :-)
[04:15] <sivang> froud: I'm reding it, just not in the mornings :)
[04:15] <sivang> usually after I finish some stuff
[04:15] <sivang> enrico: noted.
[04:15] <froud> Yep must be in bugzilla
[04:15] <sivang> enrico: you should have an anti docteam underground and process changes sniffer scrript
[04:15] <sivang> :)
[04:16] <froud> enrico, No need for DocumentationTeamWishList when you have bugzilla
[04:16] <ChrisH> sivang: Feel free to change the /topic - it's not fixed here.
[04:17] <sivang> ChrisH: do you have it saved somehwhere? I don't recall the exact words..
[04:18] <sivang> enrico: added voting process to docteamwishlist
[04:18] <ChrisH> sivang: Uh. not really. :(
[04:19] <hornbeck> you guys are confusing
[04:20] <sivang> ChrisH: never mind, I'll fix it - I have it on my docs.
[04:20] <sivang> docs=logs
[04:20] <enrico> froud: in this case, it's needed to avoid people thinking that this is something that people agreed to do
[04:20] <enrico> froud: we're still in times of process change alergy (and I wonder what will plovs say of the recent reorganizations when he'll come back)
[04:20] <sivang> enrico: true. we shjould have a way to show that a certain process or system has not yet been adopted intil a proper discussion is done about it.
[04:20] <froud> enrico, let just agree to agree
[04:20] <sivang> enrico: I hope plovs doesn't leave the project :)
[04:21] <froud> talk to much do to little
[04:21] <sivang> enrico: you recall sparks angry split out :)
[04:21] <hornbeck> sivang: sparkes was my fault
[04:21] <enrico> froud: I quite agree.  Lots of text lands outside of <para> tags (or even outside of the repository itself)
[04:22] <froud> enrico, things need to be fater
[04:22] <froud> faster
[04:22] <sivang> hornbeck: I am not sure, if would have followed the Ubuntu CoC, he should hae known the mistakes happen, and misunderstanding also :) and take it less harsh.
[04:22] <hornbeck> sivang: he felt that I was taking his ideas as my own
[04:23] <hornbeck> because I was looking at Debian docs
[04:23] <sivang> hornbeck: well that's over now.
[04:23] <hornbeck> yeah
[04:24] <ChrisH> Faster? How fast can things go? Am I the only here who has does doc team work in his spare time because he has a job?
[04:25] <hornbeck> I only do it in spare time
[04:25] <hornbeck> I work all the time, than family
[04:25] <hornbeck> than docs
[04:25] <sivang> sure, we are only voulenteers.
[04:25] <sivang> nothing bad with it, IMHO
[04:25] <hornbeck> I see nothing wrong with it
[04:25] <hornbeck> I wish I had more time to do it
[04:26] <froud> ChrisH, not true
[04:26] <hornbeck> when I started I had all the time in the world
[04:26] <froud> ChrisH, not true
[04:26] <hornbeck> I think alittle push is needed, because we are not really doing much 
[04:26] <sivang> ok, but we've had some pushing, now let's see what comes out.
[04:26] <froud> I do ubuntu in my spare time :-)
[04:26] <ChrisH> We are doing a whole lot - just not anything that is visible to anyone outside the Chaos Team.
[04:26] <hornbeck> I have felt motivated by froud, seeing him do alot has made me want to really get working again
[04:27] <froud> ChrisH, It is becaus eof this that I need to maximize my spare tuime.
[04:27] <froud> I find myslef holding on stuff for more than a day
[04:27] <ChrisH> froud: Ah, you mean I better not be online during your spare time. ;)
[04:27] <froud> ChrisH, no
[04:27] <sivang> Let us put aside the planning for a sec, 
[04:28] <sivang> get a list of content crying tags in the sources,
[04:28] <sivang> and write.
[04:28] <froud> ChrisH, I am saying that decision need to be fast
[04:28] <sivang> froud: could you provide some?
[04:28] <froud> cause we have only spare time
[04:28] <ChrisH> froud: Sure.
[04:28] <froud> I have found that I could not do some things in this time cause of no decision
[04:29] <ChrisH> froud: Although you will probably admit that you don't really lack freedom here.
[04:29] <froud> Normally decisions should take about 24 hours
[04:29] <enrico> svn is in place, accounts are there, book layout has been defined
[04:30] <enrico> The repository has even been cleaned up recently, thanks to froud
[04:30] <ChrisH> froud: I just feel that we are fine-tuning a car that has never been driving a mile.
[04:30] <froud> yes but I make proposal on list and nobody answers
[04:30] <enrico> I don't see anything missing for people to just go and write paragraphs
[04:30] <froud> so I just have to go ahead
[04:30] <ChrisH> froud: Which does not mean that I don't value your work. It's great. Just that it's not visible yet.
[04:30] <enrico> froud: I work around that by setting a deadline on proposals: if noone answers, after the deadline I do it
[04:31] <enrico> It saves lots of frustration
[04:31] <ChrisH> froud: If you make 10 proposals on the list during one day it's really hard to determine what is important and what is just information to keep the team on topic.
[04:31] <froud> OK that's fine by me
[04:31] <ChrisH> enrico: You better not recommend that to froud. Or we will have a 5 second timeout until decisions are done automagically. ;)
[04:31] <froud> [Proposal] 
[04:31] <enrico> froud: just use a reasonable deadline :)
[04:31] <froud> [Warning] 
[04:31] <froud> [Announce] 
[04:31] <froud> [OT] 
[04:32] <sivang> froud: and keep one proposal per week.
[04:32] <sivang> :)
[04:32] <froud> enrico, what's a reasonable time
[04:32] <enrico> There's also to be said that various people are kind of in christmas vacations at the moment
[04:32] <froud> :-)
[04:32] <enrico> froud: My rule of thumb is something reasonable for people in various timezones to get the message in the morning and answer to it in the evening
[04:33] <froud> OK I got the idea. Seems fair
[04:33] <ChrisH> froud: Is most of the restructuring done already? So I can enter my contents without having to fear they become useless? All entities set? All structures in final position?
[04:33] <enrico> froud: and then I'd put in some more days if I think the question is non-trivial
[04:33] <froud> Chrish you just hack away let SVN do the work
[04:33] <froud> ChrisH, trust it
[04:33] <enrico> ChrisH: yes!  Go! Go! GO!
[04:34] <ChrisH> My point is: I don't care how the icon looks or when CSSs are finished. The problem was that the framework changed every now and then. This must be avoided.
[04:34] <ChrisH> enrico: Sir, yes, Sir.
[04:34] <froud> ChrisH, this does notstop commits
[04:34] <ChrisH> enrico: Since all my hardware is running again and Marco has finished getting his second tooth I'm about to get my pen wet today. :)
[04:34] <froud> as I said let SVN do the work
[04:34] <froud> As a practice I always do svn up before commits
[04:34] <ChrisH> froud: Letting svn do the work let to a couple of ".rej" files lately because it couldn't merge my changes if I didn't commit instantly.
[04:35] <froud> Always to svn up before commit
[04:35] <froud> then do svn status
[04:35] <ChrisH> Does that really help? Can it resolve conflicts?
[04:35] <froud> No you can see problems
[04:35] <froud> better
[04:36] <enrico> Well, ideally now the only big changes happening in the repository are about content anyway
[04:36] <enrico> It seems to me that we are done with moving directories and the like
[04:36] <froud> enrico, yes this is true
[04:37] <ChrisH> enrico: Your daily posting on what has been done is really nice to see the progress. And at least it motivates me into doing stuff. :)
[04:37] <froud> I have a few files tomove to libs
[04:37] <enrico> ChrisH: thanks!  It's sweet music for me to read that!
[04:37] <froud> but no maj structure changes
[04:38] <enrico> Thanks!!
[04:38] <ChrisH> enrico: Just wanted to tell you that your existence is not entirely useless. :)
[04:38] <froud> ok later
[04:38] <enrico> froud: later!
[04:45] <enrico> But I now have nice numbers all around my personal TODO list
[04:45] <enrico> And I start appreciating the thought of being able to reassign some of those things to other people :)
[04:47] <mako> enrico: i think i just got one of them :)
What is a "catalog"?</stupid>
[04:53] <enrico> froud: oh, that patch worked then
[04:53] <enrico> cool!
[04:53] <froud> So far now we need that XSL to work with catalogs
[04:54] <froud> but must do some other stuff on wiki first
[04:55] <ChrisH> froud: I'll digest that later... thanks for the link.
[04:57] <froud> enrico, https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=4284 This is not in the current documents in svn
[04:57] <froud> The Ubuntu Installation Guide, chapter 2.1. Supported Hardware contains phrases:
[04:57] <froud> "Debian 4.10 supports ...", "Debian 4.10 ships with ..."
[04:57] <froud> For example:
[04:57] <froud> http://archive.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/dists/warty/main/installer-i386/current/doc/manual/en/ch02s01.html
[04:57] <froud> It is confusing.
[04:59] <mako> it's also incorrect
[04:59] <froud> ok this is from the debian docs
[04:59] <froud> are we patching debian docs too
[05:00] <abelli> BUON GIORNO MAKO, RE DEI BABBARI
[05:01] <mako> heh :)
[05:01] <mako> abelli: ciao babbaro
[05:02] <mako> froud: it's incorrect for either ubuntu or debian
[05:02] <mako> it's either Debain 3.x or Ubuntu 4.10
[05:04] <froud> Ok but we dont have a tree of Debian documents in svn
[05:04] <froud> so why is it our bugzilla?
[05:04] <froud> do we also patch the debian tree
[05:05] <froud> if so then we should have debian docs in our repository and patch back our patches to debian
[05:05] <froud> mako, right or wrong?
[05:05] <mako> eh..
[05:05] <mako> ok..
[05:05] <mako> so the installation manual is taken from debian
[05:05] <mako> and then rebranded basically
[05:06] <mako> colin, who did those docs
[05:06] <mako> did not add anything significant that would need to pushed back to debian
[05:06] <mako> additionally, he didn't do a perfect job of patching/rebranding the documentation
[05:06] <froud> OK, fine its a custom layer
[05:06] <mako> so he got the version number but left lots of mention of debian.. including some incohrent stuff
[05:06] <froud> do we take care of this?
[05:07] <mako> referring to versions of debian that don't exist
[05:07] <mako> it's a bug
[05:07] <froud> ok so where are the sources now?
[05:08] <mako> i don't *exactly* know but perhap sin the installer source package
[05:08] <mako> kamion will know
[05:08] <mako> let me ask
[05:08] <froud> ok, me thinks they should be moved to docs svn
[05:09] <froud> We just need a pristine of their HEAD for that doc
[05:09] <mako> froud: this might create a slightly insane situation :)
[05:09] <mako> because we already have it in two different version control systems
[05:09] <froud> yikes!!!!
[05:10] <mako> and as you know
[05:10] <mako> which, if this were baz or bitkeeper or even svk, might be fine
[05:10] <mako> but...
[05:10] <mako> this is not really svn's strong point
[05:10] <mako> branches in seperate repos
[05:11] <froud> svn does this fine
[05:11] <mako> froud: seperate repositories?!
[05:11] <froud> yes it can be done :-)
[05:11] <mako> dude, it's a centralized VCS model.. there is no inter-repository merging
[05:12] <froud> tips an dtricks it can be done
[05:12] <mako> svk was written specifically because it doesn't :)
[05:12] <froud> but I think since it is a doc it should be managed in our repos
[05:13] <mako> if it's already in a source package in the archive
[05:13] <mako> it might be nice to simply branch within that VCS
[05:13] <froud> me points mako to http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.0/svn-book.html#svn-ch-7-sect-4
[05:14] <froud> mako, " branch within that VCS" and we have little or no control for our applicatin level
[05:16] <mako> froud: i'm familiar with vendor branches.. it is not the same thing as decentralized VCS
[05:16] <mako> froud: CVS has vendor branches (sort of)
[05:17] <froud> ok, but why hav eit over there?
[05:17] <mako> enrico: good night! :)
[05:17] <froud> chow
[05:17] <enrico> Bye!
[05:17] <abelli> enrico..
[05:17] <mako> we're not going to go through every package and take out every piece of documentation and customize it
[05:18] <mako> we can't extract every manpage, etc and put in the respoitory and then track differences over time
[05:18] <mako> right now, the debian-installer maintaer is doing a (Relatively) good job of
[05:19] <mako> keeping the documentation in sync with debian
[05:19] <mako> because he's active upstream
[05:19] <froud> ok so we have to track diifferent repositories
[05:19] <mako> we are *already* tracking two
[05:19] <mako> well, colin is
[05:19] <froud> which ones
[05:19] <mako> upstream DI
[05:19] <mako> ubuntu DI
[05:20] <mako> and now doc-team
[05:20] <froud> ok
[05:20] <mako> i asked colin to pop over here
[05:21] <froud> do you have the uri for upstream
[05:21] <Kamion> I hear there's some talk about the installation manual?
[05:21] <froud> yes
[05:21] <mako> Kamion: so, there are few open bugs against the installation manual.. and the doc team is willing to take them on
[05:21] <froud> hello
[05:21] <Kamion> are there? where?
[05:21] <mako> https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=4284
[05:21] <mako> not bad ones
[05:22] <mako> that's purely branding
[05:22] <Kamion> TBH those are much easier for me to fix; I did all the branding work on that manual, I probably just missed a bit
[05:22] <froud> Sure
[05:22] <mako> alright
[05:23] <Kamion> also fixing it involves a debian-installer upload :)
[05:23] <froud> Kamion, hav eyou taken a lok at the coc repos lately
[05:23] <Kamion> coc?
[05:23] <froud> doc
[05:23] <mako> Kamion: do you d-i in svn?
[05:23] <Kamion> froud: no
[05:23] <Kamion> mako: no
[05:23] <mako> upstream is svn, no?
[05:23] <froud> Pleas edo sometime
[05:23] <mako> tla^W^Wbaz?
[05:24] <Kamion> sure, I don't do Ubuntu stuff there though
[05:24] <froud> That's the thing we have docs everywhere
[05:24] <Kamion> froud: my goal for the installation manual is to stay close to the upstream installation manual and feed changes back to them
[05:24] <Kamion> froud: I'm FAR more interested in upstream's repository than in yours, I'm afraid ;)
[05:24] <Kamion> mako: no imports, blame lifeless :P
[05:24] <froud> Fine just thought to help
[05:25] <mako> Kamion: i was already blaming lifeless :)
[05:25] <mako> froud: alright, sounds like a bit of a non-issue then
[05:25] <mako> Kamion: so, if folks want to help out with the installation manual, how should it happen?
[05:25] <mako> lets say, non-branding work
[05:26] <mako> email you? :)
[05:26] <mako> and then you figure it out
[05:26] <Kamion> mako: if it doesn't include the string "Ubuntu", it would be ideal for it to happen upstream
[05:26] <Kamion> i.e. if it's not specific to us
[05:27] <Kamion> failing that, the best I can offer for the moment is to e-mail me, yeah
[05:27] <froud> Kamion, I have been doing some major changes in our svn
[05:28] <froud> new structures and abilities ofr profiling etc
[05:28] <Kamion> froud: do you have the installation manual in your repository?
[05:28] <froud> I have also added a level of indirection to the docs that averts problelms such as that in the inst doc
[05:29] <froud> no 
[05:29] <mako> Kamion: that is the question that started this conversation :)
[05:29] <Kamion> good :)
[05:29] <mako> Kamion: that was basically my answer :)
[05:29] <Kamion> froud: I'm working with debian-installer-manual upstream to get that improved
[05:29] <Kamion> but there are obvious fundamental translation issues
[05:30] <froud> can we do a vendor branch in our svn
[05:30] <mako> froud: with responsive maintainers/upstreams that care a lot about docs and keeping them in sync (like we have for d-i). it's great to have the code and the docs tightly linked from a source management perspective
[05:31] <Kamion> froud: debian-installer-manual is part of the debian-installer source package which is the installer build system. I really don't want it off in a separate repository.
[05:31] <Kamion> I respect what the doc team's doing, but please don't fork
[05:32] <Kamion> ok, missing branding fixed now I think
[05:33] <mako> cool
[05:33] <mako> i was trying to reassing that bug to you but i can't log in
[05:33] <Kamion> grabbing the bug now
[05:33] <froud> Kamion, ok. Do take a look at some of the DocBook application level stuff were have started to do in our repos. You may find it useful
[05:34] <mako> froud: URI?
[05:34] <Kamion> froud: I'm not the person who needs to look at this :)
[05:34] <Kamion> that would be fjp upstream
[05:34] <Kamion> I strongly suggest talking to him to see if you guys can cooperate on branding infrastructure; that would be very useful
[05:35] <Kamion> can there be a doc component in bugzilla for the installation manual, so I get those bugs?
[05:35] <froud> mako, http://69.155.172.150/faq/trunk
[05:35] <mako> wait.. who is fjp?
[05:35] <Kamion> Frans Pop
[05:35] <mako> i don't know frans pop
[05:35] <froud> Kamion, asking me
[05:36] <Kamion> froud: whoever cares :)
[05:36] <Kamion> mako: Dutch d-i translator, does various manual infrastructure and localisation hacking
[05:36] <froud> I will make proposal to split bugs into the various manuals
[05:37] <mako> froud: having a d-i upstream install manaual, one in the source package, and one in the doc-team repos would be unmanagable
[05:37] <froud> mako, fine, no worries
[05:37] <mako> froud: as would any other similar situations with other manuals
[05:38] <mako> froud: if everyone was using baz, it would make it easier, but still probably unmanagable
[05:38] <Kamion> particularly with regard to merging new changes; svn isn't good enough at merging for that to work with a vendor branch or whatever
[05:38] <Kamion> it would be fine for taking a snapshot and thenceforth ignoring upstream, but we're not in that business :)
[05:38] <froud> Ok
[05:38] <mako> you'll find that vender branches are a not-so-great tecyhnical solution to not so technical problem
[05:39] <mako> Kamion: have you played with svk?
[05:39] <froud> Really I think our changes would be small
[05:39] <froud> ok going to eat c ya later
[05:39] <mako> Kamion: it looks cool.. but, alas, i'm committed to the Church of Baz :)
[05:39] <mako> froud: cool. ttys
[05:39] <froud> Thanks mako thanks Kamion 
[05:40] <Kamion> mako: not personally, I've seen a fair amount of talk about it
[05:41] <Kamion> froud: unfortunately I have to say from experience that the changes to the installation manual are substantial and hard to merge.
[05:42] <mako> source-level VCS are not optimised for dealing with changes to documentations.. diffs and merging are easier with code
[06:25] <jiyuu0> mako, thanks in advance for arranging the CDs :)
[06:28] <mako> jiyuu0: hey no problem.. it's been send to the factory as a high prioty order already
[06:28] <mako> jiyuu0: i suspect you should get them by early next week
[06:28] <jiyuu0> mako, thank u very much... as next week wed we are recruiting members
[06:33] <mako> that's great
[06:34] <mako> jiyuu0: i hope you can guys can help lead up a malaysian country team :)
[06:34] <mako> it sounds very exciting
[06:34] <jiyuu0> we are very keen... hitesh is handling that
[06:34] <jiyuu0> \
[06:39] <sivang> mako: what about my cds? :)
[06:51] <froud> mako, and mine. I ordered via the web site weeks ago
[06:52] <froud> 20 copies to distribute through the lugs here
[06:52] <mako> froud: it takes 4-6 weeks
[06:52] <mako> froud: i sent a list to the shipment folks yesterday though so it was probably in there
[06:52] <froud> sivang, read the email
[06:52] <froud> ok cool
[06:52] <mako> froud: along with 14,000 other people :)
[06:52] <froud> he he :-)
[06:53] <sivang> froud: doc list email?
[06:53] <froud> yes
[06:53] <sivang> mako: what is the apporoach for translated docs?
[06:53] <mako> *silence*
[06:53] <mako> that's kind of like saying you have cancer
[06:54] <sivang> froud: what do you think? should we tell local teams to wait until frist english docs are released?
[06:54] <mako> sivang: yes, there needs to be a documentation freeze before the release
[06:54] <mako> sivang: it can be at the same time as the gnome string freeze if you like
[06:54] <sivang> mako: now this is one process which is urgent to decide of, IMHO
[06:55] <sivang> mako: when is the gnome string freeze?
[06:55] <mako> sivang: i don't have the gnome release schedule memorized but i'm sure you can fiund it
[06:55] <mako> :)
[06:55] <sivang> mako: yes I can :)
[06:55] <froud> sivang, I thought our target was April
[06:56] <sivang> froud: april is release
[06:56] <sivang> we need to freeze to english docs _before_
[06:56] <sivang> so to let time for the professional companies,
[06:56] <froud> hold i will check when gnome freezes
[06:56] <sivang> and the local teams.
[06:56] <mako> listen, you can start auditing or finishing documentaton at the gnome UI freeze
[06:57] <mako> and then you finalizing english docs at the string freeze
[06:57] <sivang> mako: ok, I'll cehck that date.
[06:57] <mako> feature freeze
[06:57] <mako> they're all future freezes :)
[06:57] <sivang> so we have tog et something doen till the 10th?
[06:57] <froud> The 10th of what?
[06:57] <mako> january
[06:58] <sivang> mako:can anybody provide a time frame that will be needed to translations?
[06:58] <froud> ha hah ha
[06:58] <mako> froud: what's so funny
[06:58] <sivang> ok, we need some text going.
[06:58] <froud> that's what
[06:58] <froud> I just joined the team a few days ago
[06:58] <mako> the feature freeze was supposed to be this week but was postponed because the whole distro team is away
[06:58] <froud> I found svn very empty
[06:59] <sivang> mako: could you ask adi or mark or whoever when do the professional translators want stable english docs?
[06:59] <sivang> or expect at least..
[06:59] <mako> froud: well it's a feature freeze.. meaning that the distro team has until jan to redefine the *features* that will be shipped
[06:59] <sivang> so to get an idea,
[06:59] <mako> froud: so it's not the end of the world
[06:59] <froud> no
[06:59] <sivang> froud: but if you're trying to implement a simple gui interface for enable cinternet connection sharing in gnome syste tools, then you are in  abig problem :)
[07:00] <mako> sivang: in terms of translatable strings, those will be in mition up until string freeze in gnome
[07:00] <mako> sivang: so lets work with that date in mind at the moment
[07:00] <froud> who maintains a wall chart for us
[07:00] <sivang> mako: I was more talking in terms of documentation strings..
[07:00] <mako> sivang: i understand
[07:00] <froud> I was look for it but foun zero
[07:00] <mako> sivang: did you find the gnome string freeze
[07:01] <mako> http://www.gnome.org/start/2.9/
[07:01] <mako> string freeze: February 7th
[07:01] <mako> ui freeze: January 24th
[07:02] <mako> now, we are one month behind gnome
[07:02] <sivang> mako: Feb 7th
[07:02] <mako> and i think it's fine if we do a preview release w/o all of the translated docs
[07:02] <froud> mako, do you guys build from GNOME CVS
[07:02] <froud> I mean the doc team
[07:02] <mako> froud: yes
[07:03] <sivang> mako: you mean translat_able docs
[07:03] <sivang> :)
[07:03] <froud> you and who else
[07:03] <mako> froud: well, i thinke we build from the development tarballs
[07:03] <abelli> do you need translation?
[07:03] <froud> OK so its not that autoconf stuff
[07:03] <sivang> froud: autoconf?
[07:04] <sivang> what does it have to do with autoconf?
[07:04] <mako> froud: i don't think i undrestand your question
[07:04] <mako> sivang: listen would march 7th work fine for you?
[07:04] <mako> that gives us 5 weeks to do translations
[07:04] <sivang> mako: hmmm...let's start that as a thread on the mailing list,.
[07:04] <sivang> I want to see what people think
[07:04] <sivang> and how availalbe they think they can be
[07:04] <froud> Some people build directly from CVS
[07:04] <sivang> so I'll get and idea
[07:05] <sivang> froud: I have a gnome CVS HEAD Install on my system.
[07:05] <mako> froud: the tarballs are taken from CVS
[07:05] <sivang> froud: gogole for jhbuild
[07:06] <sivang> mako: I think we should push it a bit ealier, so to allow more time for translations.
[07:06] <sivang> but I will write on the maling list see what can we get ready
[07:06] <mako> sivang: if you push it too early, you're not going to have very much to translate :)
[07:06] <sivang> mako: but I don't want it also to happen the other way around,
[07:07] <sivang> having too much to translate, and the translation teams waiting too much so they sprung their own unstramlined translations..
[07:07] <sivang> this has already happend on rosetta
[07:08] <sivang> mako: ask jordi about the cataln translation for d-i :)
[07:40] <froud> mako, https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5072 relates only to  Web Site?
[07:41] <froud> Hmm yes said the blind man
[07:50] <abelli> ..mmm.. do you need translational-forces?
[07:56] <mako> froud: well the bug only relates to the website
[07:56] <mako> froud: the licensing status will also relate to canonical sponsored documentation AFAIK
[07:56] <mako> i mean, it's up to the docteam
[07:56] <mako> we'd like people payed to work on docs to able to do it with our volunteers.
[07:57] <mako> volunteers can, of course, choose to license their own documentation as they please
[07:57] <mako> canonical can't (or won't at least) force people to use a certain license
[08:10] <abelli> ifyouarelistening: ive got some ppl that would be very pleased to help translating
[08:12] <sivang> mako: canonical is going to be paying people to do docs?
[08:13] <abelli> sivang: not you..
[08:13] <abelli> sivang: only italians..
[08:13] <abelli> sivang: because they do it better ;)
[08:13] <sivang> abelli: I know that's not me, just curious :)
[08:13] <abelli> sivang: sorry it was just a joke..
[08:13] <sivang> abelli: I know andrea! No offense takes
[08:14] <abelli> sivang: italians.. do it better.. it's a stupid joke..
[08:14] <abelli> sorry
[08:14] <sivang> abelli: Italian sure know to cook better then isralis !
[08:14] <abelli> sivang: ...no... it wasn't about cooking.. but its over now.
[08:15] <sivang> abelli: no worries buddy :)
[08:27] <sivang> mako: I mean, professional translations?
[08:35] <froud> mako, OK thanks
[08:42] <mako> sivang: i'm not really sure about that.. i didn't even know adi was involved until i met her mataro
[08:42] <sivang> mako: ah ok :)
[08:43] <sivang> mako: so that makes our all convo about deadline pre translation redundent until we _would_ know anything for sure.
[09:01] <mako> sivang: to some degree, setting these documentation team deadlines are up to use. i think 5 weeks for translations is reasonable.. especially it's only a bit over 5 weeks to write what we have by then
[09:01] <mako> sivang: if it's unreasonable, we can deal with that
[09:36] <sivang> mako: ok
[10:13] <Burgundavia_> hey all
[10:15] <sivang> hey Burgundavia_ 
[10:15] <sivang> got some baz news for us?
[10:16] <Burgundavia_> not much
[10:16] <Burgundavia_> I currently have no internet access at my home
[10:16] <Burgundavia_> Still on my laptop, but at the library
[10:16] <sivang> Burgundavia_: eh
[10:17] <Burgundavia_> My plan for tonight is to really knuckle down and work on that baz stuff
[10:18] <ChrisH> Yeah, let's screw the subversion archive and start baz! Someone give me a padded room. ;)
[10:19] <Burgundavia_> hey, did I say that?
[10:19] <ChrisH> Nah. :)
[10:20] <Burgundavia_> I am merely creating documentation so that we can
[10:20] <ChrisH> And that's good. I'm actually interested to see if baz really kicks lower backs.
[10:20] <Burgundavia_> Baz does look very cool
[10:21] <Burgundavia_> I have had a hell of a week, so I haven't really been doing much
[10:21] <ChrisH> Just ask...
[10:23] <sivang> let's switch to it now, and if we all like it - port all the repo to it
[10:55] <sivang> :)
[11:02] <abelli> sivang: i think that the point is not if you like it.. you just have to do it. cozh it iz fhairly betther than shvhn;)
[11:03] <sivang> abelli: I was joking, This kind of stuff need full approval by the doc contributors :)
[11:03] <ChrisH> I vote against it - just for the sake of additional chaos. :)
[11:04] <abelli> ChrisH: zut up and execute the Word..
[11:04] <abelli> :)
[11:04] <ChrisH> abelli: hey, you are the one with the redmond affinity :)
[11:05] <abelli> development development development... actually im more ballmore-style
[11:05] <abelli> :0
[11:05] <ChrisH> abelli: Shouldn't you wear a funny tie then?
[11:06] <abelli> i do actually.. chrish do you have "tabu'" sweet up there?
[11:06] <sivang> our show is own,
[11:06] <sivang> and we have some guests today
[11:07] <ChrisH> sivang: I'm the monkey drummer tonight.
[11:07] <abelli> III WANNA ROCK N ROLL ALL NITE..
[11:08] <abelli> something like russian death metal..
[11:08] <ChrisH> [This channel has been brought to you by: SCO UNIX] 
[11:08] <abelli> && win 2003 server ed.
[11:27] <ChrisH> abelli: Okay, you are fired.
[11:33] <abelli> ChrisH: good night..
[11:33] <abelli> and thanks for the FIREworks