[12:48] <Kamion> Keybuk: s/pedant/build-essential-maint/
[12:51] <mjg59> Kamion: Damn you for getting back before me
[12:59] <Keybuk> *sigh* weather applet has gone into a cyclone of hate
[01:04] <Kamion> mjg59: and I even had time for a glass of orange juice to absorb the BEER
[01:04] <Kamion> and it just took me three goes to type "absorb"
[01:05] <Keybuk> drunk :o)
[01:21] <daniels> Kamion: the orange juice didn't contain vodka, did it?
[01:21] <daniels> that can certainly negatively impact your ability to type 'absorb'
[01:21] <Keybuk> mmm... vodka
[01:22] <Keybuk> heh, alright for some.  none for us from Spain
[01:22] <Kamion> daniels: negatively impact your ability to absorb, for that matter
[01:23] <daniels> Kamion: (how many goes?)
[01:24] <Kamion> just the one that time
[01:25] <daniels> Kamion: i'll smack you if hoary-changes (amusingly, I typoed both 'changes' and 'typoed', quite badly [and 'badly'] ), I'll smack you
[01:26] <daniels> er
[01:26] <daniels> that sentence reads like it's I that's just come back from the pub.  so let's just pretend this never happened, I'll go back to GTA:SA, and we can all move on. :)
[01:26] <Kamion> was there going to be a point to that sentence? :)
[01:27] <daniels> Kamion: if hoary-changes lights up with your name, I'll smack you ;)
[01:27] <Kamion> ah
[01:27] <daniels> public service
[01:27] <daniels> that was the point I was lamely attempting to convey
[01:27] <Kamion> fortunately I uploaded python2.4 before leaving for the pub
[01:27] <daniels> heh
[01:27] <Kamion> no, I'm just surreptitiously poking at cdimage behind the scenes. that can do no harm at all, can it? :)
[01:31] <Kamion> little things like the cdimage signing key
[01:33] <daniels> heh
[01:34] <daniels> at least elmo will know where to look ;)
[02:06] <Keybuk> it's when he starts fiddling with germinate you have to worry
[02:10] <Kamion> Keybuk: yeah, only FREAKS work on germinate
[02:11] <Kamion> basic regular expressions suck. no '+'?!
[02:11] <Kamion> (not surprised, just discover new dimensions of hate every time I run into that lack-of-feature)
[02:12] <daniels> the kamion cyclone of hate
[02:14] <Kamion> beer-powered cyclone
[02:20] <Kamion> unfortunately it's sed, and busybox sed doesn't have -r
[02:21] <Keybuk> aww
[02:31] <davyd> bug report for the latest installer image
[02:31] <davyd> you are depending on the python module UserDict
[02:31] <davyd> which you don't have
[02:32] <Kamion> davyd: fixed earlier today
[02:32] <davyd> Kamion: are the CD images rsyncable ?
[02:32] <Kamion> yes
[02:33] <davyd> excellent, is there an appropriate URL ?
[02:33] <Kamion> there isn't a new CD image with that fix yet though, wait 9 hours or so
[02:33] <davyd> aah right
[02:33] <davyd> I'm already going to not have a working system when I go to work... ;)
[02:33] <Kamion> rsync://cdimage.ubuntulinux.org/cdimage/daily/current/
[02:33] <davyd> the fix, it's quick and nasty, is to netcat it off another Ubuntu machine
[02:34] <davyd> or I guess python installation in general
[02:34] <Kamion> I just moved UserDict into python2.4-minimal, that's the correct fix
[02:34] <davyd> Kamion: doesn't help if all you have is a bad CD image though ;)
[02:34] <Kamion> since os.py depends on it
[02:34] <Kamion> shouldn't use dailies if you need something that works :)
[02:35] <davyd> Kamion: I know that, but it seemed like the fastest way to get Hoary
[02:35] <Kamion> that's what the Array CD series is for
[02:35] <davyd> array series?
[02:35] <Kamion> the installer in the dailies might be arbitrarily broken
[02:35] <Kamion> search for "Subject: Array CD 2" in ubuntu-users
[02:36] <Kamion> hm, I can roll a new CD image now if it'd help, but it'll take an hour or so
[02:36] <davyd> nah, I got it installed
[02:36] <Kamion> ok
[02:36] <davyd> like I said, I copied the module across via netcat
[02:36] <Kamion> heh. could also have extracted it from python2.4_*.deb, which is on the CD
[02:37] <davyd> Kamion: yeah, I had wondered about that, but I just wasn't sure of the specifics
[02:37] <davyd> why is it done with a minimal and the real thing?
[02:37] <Kamion> or indeed an easier fix, 'nano /usr/lib/debootstrap/scripts/hoary' and add 'python python2.4 libbz2-1.0 libdb4.2 libssl0.9.7' to the end of the required= line
[02:37] <Kamion> because we have a goal for hoary to put python into Essential, i.e. the minimal set of stuff required for the packaging system to work
[02:38] <davyd> also, there really needs to be a simple netinst CD that will suck all these packages off the net for me, is there any chance of ever seeing one?
[02:38] <davyd> Kamion: aah, I see
[02:38] <Kamion> there's a netboot image
[02:39] <davyd> I couldn't find it, so maybe it's nicely hidden
[02:39] <Kamion> yep
[02:39] <Kamion> http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/hoary/main/installer-i386/current/images/netboot/mini.iso
[02:39] <davyd> not just a little hidden, really very hidden ;)
[02:39] <Kamion> not hugely keen on advertising it too widely at the moment because it isn't well-tested, and particularly in the development branch it's very fragile
[02:40] <davyd> Kamion: *nod*
[02:40] <Kamion> but you're right, we should probably advertise it more widely for the hoary release
[02:40] <Kamion> not to mention making it work better
[02:41] <davyd> oh well, hopefully I can at least rsync my home directory back onto this machine before I have to go to work
[02:41] <davyd> then I can finish setting it up at work ;)
[02:41] <davyd> that's not pretty
[02:42] <davyd> filesystem type unknown 0x7
[02:47] <davyd> hmm, grub had decided that all partitions were on /dev/hda1
[02:48] <Kamion> you may need to do this in /boot/grub/menu.lst:
[02:48] <Kamion> map (hd0) (hd1)
[02:48] <Kamion> map (hd1) (hd0)
[02:48] <Kamion> (in the Windows chainloader section)
[02:48] <Kamion> I'd make that happen automatically if I had a clue how to detect the systems where it's needed
[02:49] <Keybuk> isn't it needed wherever Windows is on a different drive?
[02:50] <Kamion> non-hda/sda you mean? how do you tell which of IDE and SCSI is first if both are present?
[02:50] <tseng> only if windows isnt on the first master drive
[02:50] <davyd> also, why does it want to run aptitude?
[02:50] <romspaceni> is unbutu like debian?
[02:51] <Kamion> davyd: the full aptitude UI? probably because the ubuntu-desktop task was uninstallable in the image you downloaded
[02:51] <davyd> Kamion: nice
[02:51] <Kamion> which http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily/current/report.html would tend to support
[02:51] <davyd> can I installed it and get it to finish the config process?
[02:51] <Kamion> yes, go down to tasks, drill down 'til you see ubuntu-desktop, install that, ignore broken stuff
[02:52] <Keybuk> yeah, current hoary is uninstallable
[02:52] <Keybuk> elmo sucks and hasn't processed NEW
[02:52] <Kamion> romspaceni: "Ubuntu"; in many ways yes, in some ways not, depends what you're asking about :)
[02:52] <Kamion> I thought he had, I saw stuff in my hoary seed diff mail
[02:52] <davyd> perhaps I should have installed warty and dist-upgraded
[02:52] <Keybuk> davyd: same problem
[02:52] <Keybuk> install of ubuntu-desktop's deps except evolution
[02:53] <Keybuk> The following packages have been kept back:
[02:53] <Keybuk>   evolution evolution-data-server libebook1.2-0 libedataserverui1.2-0
[02:55] <davyd> oh right, I can build evo debs
[02:55] <davyd> work time though
[02:55] <davyd> later all
[02:55] <Kamion> Keybuk: what's it waiting for?
[02:56] <Keybuk> not sure, some evo dep
[02:57] <Keybuk> evolution-exchange hasn't been updated yet, so probably something under that
[02:57] <Keybuk> ask seb
[02:57] <Keybuk> in fact, it looks to me like seb was mistaken and he hasn't uploaded evolution-exchange
[03:01] <Kamion> maybe I should just create a zoneinfo-udeb
[03:02] <Kamion> it would be kind of nice if the timezone question came right after language and country, but that's Hard
[03:12] <daniels> elmo: I have so much respect that I can now run a three-man gang.
[03:30] <mjg59> daniels: Haha
[03:30] <mjg59> How long have you had it?
[04:04] <lamont> daniels: you around>?
[04:47] <daniels> lamont: got your email
[04:47] <daniels> mjg59: two days
[04:47] <lamont> daniels: cool
[04:53] <moquist> is there a mailing list I can query about finding a mentor so I can learn to create ubuntu packages?
[04:54] <moquist> (I think I saw one mentioned here once)
[05:02] <tseng> moquist: actually, you should know a good bit before you try and get a mentor
[05:02] <tseng> start reading the new maintainer handbook and the deb policy
[05:02] <tseng> http://www.debian.org/doc/maint-guide/
[05:11] <moquist> tseng: I've been through much of the deb policy doc.  The deb maint-guide looks great; I'm still looking for the new maint handbook.  Thanks for your help, btw.
[05:11] <tseng> that is the new maint guide
[05:11] <moquist> tseng: Oh; I assumed it was an ubuntu doc.
[05:11] <tseng> it covers almost everything around package creation + maintainence
[05:12] <tseng> ubuntu does a few things a little different on the backend of things, but i dont think there is a comprehensive doc
[05:12] <moquist> tseng: btw, the package I'm interested in is the LTSP.  Do you know if anyone is already working on it?  I know it's on Mark's list of things to do for Hoary.  (It could be done for all I know - I've been on vacation for a week and haven't checked.  ;)
[05:12] <tseng> there is a debian page of packages on the wishlist
[05:13] <tseng> its mentioned in the new maint guide, i believe
[05:14] <sivang> moquist: there isn't such, at least not yet.
[05:14] <moquist> sivang: k; thx.
[05:15] <sivang> moquist: there are plans to extend the ubuntu set of new maint docs, but there is a new page on the wiki with some starters for interested people.
[05:15] <moquist> sivang: that's where I found myself while looking for a new Ubuntu maintainer handbook.
[05:16] <moquist> sivang: it's already helping.  :)
[05:17] <sivang> moquist: eh ok :) great, the doc team intends to invest some effort into that matter eventually :)
[05:19] <tseng> moquist: oh also
[05:19] <tseng> install and read the docs for cdbs
[05:24] <moquist> tseng: am doing.  thx.
[05:24] <sivang> tseng: there are docs now? :)
[05:24] <tseng> sivang: enough to get started at least
[05:25] <sivang> tseng: what's the pkg name?
[05:25] <sivang> tseng: (for docs)
[05:26] <tseng> cdbs
[05:26] <sivang> eh :0
[05:26] <sivang> :)
[05:26] <sivang> k, thanks
[05:26] <tseng> i dont recall if they were packaged or on the site
[05:27] <tseng> https://wiki.duckcorp.org/DebianPackagingTutorial_2fCDBS
[05:27] <sivang> tseng: I can't see no doc dir , probably on the wiki..
[05:38] <jbailey> Err, did I fail to include the docs in the package?
[05:38] <sivang> jbailey: if you would, it would have appeared under /usr/share/cdbs/doc  no?
[05:38] <jbailey> I know we generate some basic docs.
[05:38] <jbailey> /usr/share/doc/cdbs, but yeah.
[05:39] <sivang> jbailey: eh ok :) it's there.
[05:39] <sivang> my abd
[05:39] <sivang> *bad
[05:41] <daniels> jbailey: hey dude.  good somewhere-other-than-work period?
[05:42] <jbailey> daniels: Nope, still working evenings.  This should be the last one.  If you /msg, I'll answer but a bit lagged.
[05:42] <daniels> jbailey: Ah, nice one.
[05:42] <jbailey> sivang: While I'm around, I'll try to answer cdbs questions.
[05:43] <sivang> jbailey: eh nice , I have one for you!
[05:43] <sivang> :)
[05:44] <sivang> jbailey: I have a couple of docs files I want to register against docbase or scrollkeeper (well, mostly scrollkeeper as I want them to appear in yelp) how can I use cdbs to do that?
[05:44] <sivang> jbailey: so after I install the pacakge, I would have the docs viewable from yelp. those are DocBook XML sources.
[05:46] <jbailey> I think there's a debhelper module for that, no?
[05:46] <jbailey> The best bet when there's a debhelper module is to set those files up and just use debhelper.mk
[05:49] <sivang> jbailey: ok, I have tried setting them up and called debhelper class - guess my omf is not complete or wrong. tnx anyway.
[06:11] <srbaker> anyone know where i can get ant and other jakarta utils packaged for ubuntu?
[06:19] <sivang> jbailey: from the man pages of the dh_scrollkeeper command, I don't quite understand where it exepcts the files to be, could you toss a hint here?
[06:28] <jbailey> Oh, oy.  I haven't used dh_scrollkeeper.  Might best ask some gnome hackers.
[06:33] <crimsun> sivang: debian/$package/var/... if you're using dh_scrollkeeper
[06:33] <crimsun> gnome.mk calls it
[06:45] <sivang> crimsun: could you offer a better way then using the gnome build class? it exepcts autotools and others, which I can include int he docs pkg but would prefer to pass, or is it compulsory for registering dobook docs using cdbs?
[06:47] <crimsun> sivang: afaik it's the preferred method. seb128 would be the one to ask.
[06:51] <sivang> crimsun: tnx
[06:53] <crimsun> np
[08:43] <davyd> arrg, ubuntu-desktop is still uninstallable
[08:50] <Treenaks> davyd: gnome-related brokenness?
[08:50] <davyd> Treenaks: evolution-exchange is uninstallabe
[08:50] <Treenaks> blame seb128 :)
[08:50] <Treenaks> we do
[08:51] <davyd> I can do that
[08:51] <davyd> Kahn!!!^WSeb!!!
[08:52] <davyd> I'm trying to work out how to work around the missing dependancy
[08:52] <Treenaks> apt-get -f install?
[08:53] <Treenaks> or recompile ubuntu-meta ?
[09:24] <davyd> someone should upgrade the kernel to include Orinoco 0.15, rather then 0.13e
[09:24] <davyd> magic will happen, like working AP scanning
[09:31] <Treenaks> davyd: poke fabbione 
[09:31] <davyd> heh
[09:31] <davyd> I might have a swing at packaging it later, although I suspect this will require some magic, like perhaps learning how to do diversions
[09:32] <davyd> since I'll want to install using filenames already in the tree
[09:32] <Treenaks> fabbione updated loads of drivers for 2.6.10
[09:32] <davyd> is that packaged now?
[09:32] <crimsun> hm. I'm thinking bittorrent* in hoary needs to be recompiled against current python2.4
[09:32] <Treenaks> I think so
[09:33] <davyd> quick question, what's the incantation ubuntu uses for wireless cards?
[09:34] <davyd> I saw it earlier
[09:34] <davyd> but this time I installed off ethernet
[09:37] <Treenaks> uh isn't it all in /etc/network/interfaces ?
[09:37] <Treenaks> iface eth0 inet dhcp
[09:37] <Treenaks>         name Wireless LAN card
[09:37] <Treenaks>         wireless_essid youressid
[09:37] <Treenaks>         wireless_key yourwepkey
[09:40] <davyd> Treenaks: it didn't write it there for me
[09:40] <davyd> there is a whacky mappings section too
[09:40] <davyd> which is what I'm vague on
[09:40] <Treenaks> oh I have that too :)
[09:40] <Treenaks> it's there so when you hotplug the card it gets ifupped
[09:41] <Treenaks> mapping hotplug
[09:41] <Treenaks>         script grep
[09:41] <Treenaks>         map eth0
[09:41] <davyd> it has similar sections for ethernet as well?
[09:42] <Treenaks> ppp0 in my case, but yes
[09:42] <Treenaks> but I don't hotplug my ppp connections ;)
[09:50] <abelli> kamion: ping
[10:21] <fabbione> morning
[10:21] <abelli> ciao
[10:22] <fabbione> ciao
[10:23] <Treenaks> fabbione: you've been poked by davyd 
[10:24] <davyd> morning fabbione 
[10:24] <davyd> I was wondering if you were going to package Orinoco 0.15 with your kernels any time soon?
[10:24] <fabbione> guys i am really sick today
[10:24] <fabbione> i am not working since yesterday
[10:24] <fabbione> just checking emergency emails before crashing again
[10:25] <davyd> that's cool
[10:25] <Treenaks> fabbione: well, good luck then
[10:25] <fabbione> davyd: please send me all the details of the driver including upstream url and stuff like that
[10:25] <fabbione> this wlan stuff should die
[10:25] <davyd> fabbione: ok, I'll get around to it once I unfuck my laptop
[10:25] <fabbione> they don't deserve all this attention
[10:26] <davyd> it might have been merged into 2.6.10... I haven't checked
[10:27] <fabbione> please do
[11:15] <fabbione> humpf
[11:15] <fabbione> there is a big regression in 2.6.10
[11:15] <fabbione> pcmcia_core has been renamed to pcmcia
[11:16] <Treenaks> urgh
[11:18] <mvo> 2.6.10 has some problems with my system ... I got two hangs at startup so far
[11:19] <Treenaks> I had a nice one with my Via X driver.. it starts fine, but as soon as the first windows needs to be filled X crashes with "Inappropriate ioctl for device"  (this is Debian sid)
[11:19] <fabbione> mvo: 2.6.10 isn't the best we could get from upstream
[11:19] <mvo> yeah :/
[11:20] <fabbione> uh yeah
[11:20] <fabbione> pcmcia udebs are cracked
[11:48] <lupusBE> jdub: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162414 what do you think :)
[11:59] <fabbione> hmmm no
[11:59] <fabbione> pcmcia_core is still there
[11:59] <fabbione> these gratuitos CONFIG_* rename are really a pain in the ass
[01:13] <pitti> Hi folks
[01:14] <Treenaks> hey pitti
[01:14] <sjoerd> pitti: morning
[01:18] <ogra> hi pitti
[01:19] <lupusBE> daniels: how is xcb doing?
[01:25] <Kamion> abelli: pings should include content :)
[01:31] <abelli> Kamion: ping foreach (hoary's grub-instal)  do-es (break grub)
[01:31] <Kamion> well, if you know how to fix it ... :)
[01:31] <Kamion> it's been working for me
[01:32] <abelli> Kamion: i tried to install array-2 hoary and then at reboot-time it prints the word "GRUB" endlessly
[01:33] <abelli> Kamion(it's been working... ;): im happy for you :)
[01:34] <Kamion> you'll need to (a) file a bug rather than doing this on IRC (b) dig down a bit into what grub-installer is doing
[01:34] <abelli> Kamion: i'd love to... may be can you tell me how?
[01:35] <Kamion> normal shell tracing tools, 'set -x', then look at how it's calling grub and do that by hand, etc.
[01:36] <Kamion> I can't teach you how to debug, though :)
[01:36] <abelli> Kamion: why not Her Professor ;)?
[01:37] <Kamion> (that would be "Herr")
[01:37] <abelli> oops.. sorry 
[01:38] <abelli> like miyagi and daniel san
[01:39] <abelli> :) you teach.. i "wax on".. "wax off" :)
[01:39] <Kamion> we really need somebody else on the team who's better at dealing with bootloader problems
[01:39] <Kamion> no, I simply can't teach how to debug, it's like teaching how to walk or something :)
[01:39] <abelli> well birds follow other birds to learn how to fly..
[01:39] <abelli> ;) can i follow you ?
[01:40] <Kamion> bit hard considering you're not in the same place
[01:40] <Kamion> the only way to learn is to try
[01:41] <Treenaks> abelli: just compile something with debugging symbols and run it in gcc
[01:41] <Treenaks> abelli: uh gdb
[01:41] <Treenaks> abelli: then get out the gdb manual and start poking around :)
[01:41] <Kamion> (grub-installer is shell so doesn't need debugging symbols)
[01:41] <abelli> Kamion: that's what i was talkin about
[01:41] <Treenaks> Kamion: oh wait.. it's shell..
[01:53] <abelli> Treenaks: Perl Debugger power ;)
[01:53] <Treenaks> abelli: perl debugger is scary.. I debug perl with warn()s
[01:53] <Treenaks> abelli: and I debug XS modules using gdb :)
[01:53] <Kamion> abelli: anyway, regardless, please file a bug about bugs rather than asking me about them on IRC, thanks. :)
[01:54] <abelli> Kamion: ups sorry i just thought this was the 2nd part of the discussion we had...mmm... yesterday
[02:34] <fabbione> hey Kamion 
[02:36] <davyd> can someone paste the magic -mapping- lines from /etc/network/interfaces please?
[02:38] <Treenaks> davyd: again? :)
[02:39] <Treenaks> mapping hotplug   
[02:39] <Treenaks>         script grep
[02:39] <Treenaks>         map eth0
[02:39] <davyd> Treenaks: I kinda lost it ;)
[02:40] <davyd> perhaps I suck ;)
[02:40] <Treenaks> davyd: "DOH" :)
[02:41] <fabbione> does anybody know if ipw2200 firmwares require any special naming?
[02:41] <fabbione> apparently they have been renamed recently and i would kinda like to avoid to break
[03:08] <mjg59> fabbione: Ok, I haven't managed to break 2.6.10 yet
[03:14] <fabbione> mjg59: good for you :-)))
[03:15] <fabbione> pcmcia is broken because of pcmcia_core being compiled in instead of module
[03:39] <mjg59> fabbione: Oh. Whoops.
[03:39] <mjg59> Anyone here running on the vesa framebuffer?
[04:08] <davyd> gah, where is the SSL in Evolution gone?
[04:08] <Treenaks> davyd: #5093
[04:08] <Treenaks> davyd: and http://bugzilla.ximian.com/show_bug.cgi?id=70895
[04:22] <davyd> interesting
[04:22] <davyd> and here I was blaming Ubuntu
[04:23] <davyd> although, I'm still tempted to, I think it might be fixed in cVS
[04:23] <lupusBE> if the bugreport is set to fixed
[04:23] <lupusBE> it is in cvs
[04:25] <davyd> good point
[04:25] <lupusBE> :)
[04:25] <davyd> I'll rephrase
[04:26] <davyd> when building CVS, I did not notice that
[04:26] <robtaylor_> hmm, is the fastbootup stuff in hoary now?
[04:52] <davyd> hmm, seb was complaining recently about the AC adapter not sendings events properly
[04:52] <davyd> now that I'm running Ubuntu on the same hardware... this is a damned Ubuntu bug
[04:52] <davyd> only I don't know where
[05:06] <shaya> anyone using evolution w/ ssl?
[05:07] <davyd> shaya: it's broken
[05:07] <davyd> I've already complained about it
[05:07] <lupusBE>  XInternAtom
[05:07] <lupusBE> davyd: and http://bugzilla.ximian.com/show_bug.cgi?id=70895
[05:07] <lupusBE> copy paste :)
[05:08] <shaya> sigh
[05:13] <shaya> fsck
[05:13] <shaya> downgraded and now it crashes on startup
[05:15] <davyd> shaya: evolution-data-server will need downgrading too
[05:16] <davyd> I should downgrade, but I'm not sure I can arsed
[05:20] <shaya> I did
[05:20] <davyd> and restarting?
[05:20] <shaya> Version: 1.1.1-0ubuntu1
[05:20] <shaya> yes
[05:20] <shaya> slay'd me
[05:20] <shaya> restarted d-bus
[05:21] <davyd> ok, apparently Ubuntu sucks ;)
[05:21] <shaya> what I dont get is why in the world do package upgrades require me to restart
[05:22] <davyd> because you can't replacing running shared libraries easily?
[05:23] <shaya> breaking out thunderbird
[05:33] <siretart> shaya: ah, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one with that problem :)
[05:47] <pitti> mvo: can I tell apt-get to ignore failed signatures? I would like to install some packages from woody (for upgrading tests)
[05:52] <fabbione> pitti: it's almost the end of 2004
[05:53] <pitti> fabbione: indeed
[05:53] <fabbione> you are supposed to be out getting drunk and having fun
[05:53] <pitti> fabbione: I go to our party in about an hour
[05:53] <davyd> 2004 was like an hour ago
[05:53] <pitti> davyd: happy new year!
[05:53] <fabbione> davyd: 2005 is a few hours ahead here
[05:53] <fabbione> ;)
[05:53] <pitti> fabbione: what about you, when you will leave?
[05:53] <fabbione> pitti: i won't
[05:53] <fabbione> <- doesn't feel good
[05:53] <pitti> oh?
[05:54] <fabbione> i will have some quiet dinner here at home
[05:54] <fabbione> that's it
[05:54] <pitti> fabbione: I wish you a nice evening anyway!
[05:54] <fabbione> pitti: nah don't worry
[05:55] <pitti> and everybody else, too
[05:55] <fabbione> i hate all these holidays anyway
[05:55] <fabbione> ;)
[05:55] <fabbione> have fun man
[05:55] <pitti> I will
[05:55] <fabbione> and see you next year
[05:55] <ogra> pitti: guten rutsch ;)
[05:55] <fabbione> ehhe
[05:55] <pitti> .. and I prepared lots of food
[05:55] <pitti> ogra: Dir auch!
[05:55] <fabbione> fooood.. hmmm
[05:55] <fabbione> i am hungry
[05:56] <pitti> fabbione: I prepared fish with vegetables and potatoes, salad and chocolate pudding with vanilla sauce
[05:56] <fabbione> hmmmm
[05:56] <fabbione> not bad
[05:56] <fabbione> i am going to have "fondue"
[05:56] <fabbione> basically it's a big pot of boiling oil
[05:56] <pitti> fabbione: oh, I like fondue, too
[05:57] <fabbione> ah ok.. so you know what it is
[05:57] <fabbione> with salad, vegetables
[05:57] <fabbione> and garlic bread
[05:57] <pitti> hmmm
[05:57] <fabbione> + some kind of sweets
[05:57] <fabbione> i still have to decide which ones
[05:57] <pitti> fabbione: just take all :-)
[05:57] <fabbione> thanks god i only have some fever
[05:57] <fabbione> and i didn't lost appetite :PO
[05:57] <pitti> fabbione: if you are still hungry, that's a good sign
[05:57] <fabbione> pitti: yeah i know
[05:58] <fabbione> but i never loose my appetite
[05:58] <fabbione> even with 40 of fever
[05:58] <pitti> so long, I wish everybody a happy evening! See you next year!
[05:58] <fabbione> cya pitti!
[05:58] <ogra> ciao
[05:58] <fabbione> happy new root hole
[05:58] <pitti> ciao
[05:58] <fabbione> ogra: have fun too
[05:58] <davyd> * pitti cares for his gf now and goes to party :-)
 happy new root hole
[05:58] <davyd> mmm, context
[05:59] <fabbione> davyd: pitti is our security release guy ;)
[05:59] <ogra> fabbione: you too ;) have a nice silent one
[05:59] <fabbione> the one that does the USN :-)
[06:00] <davyd> it occurs to me, it's probably only funny if you're Australian
[06:00] <davyd> never mind
[06:00] <ogra> *g*
[06:00] <Treenaks> fabbione: kernel souls? ;)
[06:00] <fabbione> Treenaks: SOULS
[06:00] <davyd> oh, I think my laptop boots
[06:00] <fabbione> all our users souls
[06:00] <davyd> I only had to rebuild the kernel exporting symbols I shouldn't
[06:00] <Treenaks> fabbione: KERNEL SOULS?
[06:00] <davyd> and build a 10 month old nvidia driver
[06:00] <fabbione> USERS SOULS
[06:01] <Treenaks> fabbione: even better :)
[06:01] <fabbione> ehehhe
[06:01] <fabbione> including your
[06:01] <fabbione> Uha UHA UHA
[06:01] <Treenaks> fabbione: I'm a UBUNTITE
[06:01] <Treenaks> (or something)
[06:02] <fabbione> Treenaks: something :-)=
[06:02] <fabbione> the queen is talking on the radio
[06:02] <fabbione> boring
[06:02] <Treenaks> fabbione: queen of what?
[06:02] <fabbione> Denmark
[06:03] <Treenaks> they have a queen there?
[06:03] <Treenaks> hm.
[06:03] <fabbione> yeah they do
[06:05] <davyd> is she Australian?
[06:05] <davyd> or is that the princess
[06:05] <davyd> or is that the Dutch?
[06:06] <fabbione> the princess is from australia
[06:06] <fabbione> the big fat wedding was like in Aug
[06:06] <fabbione> or something like that
[06:08] <Treenaks> davyd: no, the Dutch crown prince married Argentinian woman.. daughter of a minister from $oppressinggovernment..
[06:08] <Treenaks> +an
[06:09] <fabbione> bah it's all the same crap
[06:09] <fabbione> they just eat and live with our money (taxes)
[06:10] <fabbione> and don't tell me they do something important more than a few speeches here and there
[06:10] <fabbione> because i really find them useless
[06:12] <fabbione> i am off guys
[06:12] <ogra> ciao
[06:12] <fabbione> for you lifeless creatures that will stay on the net....
[06:12] <fabbione> 2.6.10-2 is on the way and it should fix some regressions
[06:12] <fabbione> have fun
[06:12] <fabbione> ciao ogra 
[06:13] <ogra> :)
[06:16] <Treenaks> yay.. Walking Bookmark Repository strikes again (ubuntu-users@)
[06:18] <ogra> Treenaks: Walking Bookmark Repository ?
[06:18] <Treenaks> ogra: see my mail on -users (about shell scripts ;))
[06:18] <Treenaks> ogra: people sometimes  call me a walking bookmark repository
[06:19] <Treenaks> ogra: because of the URLs I keep shouting at them :)
[06:19] <ogra> ah, not here yet ;)
[06:19] <ogra> did you send a abs-howto link ;)
[06:19] <Treenaks> ogra: not quite
[06:19] <Treenaks> Message-ID: <20041231171436.GB24291@facecrime.net>                              
[06:23] <sladen> okay.  looks like o#ubuntu we have a widely found issue of the GDM panels starting but nothing more getting loaded
[06:24] <sladen> only fix seems to be reboot;  but with me it's currently 100% failure rate.  Any GNOME people want to give me a hand in what to hunt down?
[06:25] <Treenaks> sladen: killing gnome-vfs-daemon and blocking programs also fixes it 50% of the time for me
[06:26] <sladen> blocking programs?
[06:26] <Treenaks> sladen: programs that hang
[06:27] <Treenaks> sladen: the panel, nautilus etc.
[06:27] <ogra> sladen: it often happens for people that ran nautilus as root....
[06:27] <Treenaks> ogra: I didn't do that, it still happens
[06:28] <ogra> Treenaks: i didnt say you did that, and i assume you got hoary anyway.....
[06:28] <sladen> ogra: okay, we can discount that theory then
[06:28] <Treenaks> ogra: oh this is a warty thing?
[06:28] <ogra> Treenaks: afaik a chown -r can solve it on warty
[06:29] <sladen> I (think) I've had it under Warty.  However it'd been getting worse (1 in 6 say) and now with a full dist-upgrade 1 hour ago it's 100% (so far) failure
[06:29] <Treenaks> ogra: oh that's the ICEAuthority thing? from running K3B as root?
[06:30] <ogra> Treenaks: nope, thats running nautilus as root for editing the "system" app menu.....
[06:30] <Treenaks> ah ok
[06:30] <ogra> which is kind of nonsense
[06:31] <sladen> interesting.  Left it five minutes.  Reappeared at the GDM login screen (presumbley a watchdog).  Loged in again and it came up immediately
[06:31] <Treenaks> yikes.. ruby looks like the evil mutant child of perl and python
[06:31] <sladen> Treenaks: correct :-)
[06:32] <ogra> sladen: anything in ~/.xsession-errors ?
[06:33] <sladen> gnome_execute_async_with_env_fds = -1
[06:33] <sladen> wonder if it's related to session handling.  Lets try and break it again
[06:34] <sladen> progressive.  Background *and* show-all-windows applet
[06:36] <ogra> sladen: tried with a fresh user ?
[06:37] <trulux> hi!
[06:37] <sladen> ogra: interesting idea
[06:38] <ogra> sladen: ...to divide between config and program errors
[06:38] <Treenaks> ogra: unless the program writes b0rken config files
[06:39] <ogra> Treenaks: true :)
[06:39] <sladen> fresh new user comes up great with only an error 'no volume control elements or devices found', which I presume is Audio rather than Disk related
[06:40] <ogra> sladen: a group thing, new users have less group permissions
[06:40] <sladen> logout, login as me again == failure
[06:40] <ogra> sladen: so i assume its something in your config
[06:42] <sladen> gdm restart && login as 'fred flintstone' brings up ''I've detected a panel already running and will now exit''
[06:42] <sladen> leaving poor 'fred' with nothing but a background
[06:42] <ogra> sladen: thats a known one...kill the running panel.....
[06:43] <sladen> sudo pkill -u fred
[06:43] <ogra> yep....
[06:44] <davyd> woo! it only too a custom kernel, 8 month old graphics drivers, and a magic xorg config
[06:44] <davyd> but I think I have my laptop basically working again
[06:44] <sladen> login again as 'fred'  and failure (show-all-windows and background only)
[06:45] <davyd> hmm, it likes to spend time configuring network interfaces, which I think it a little silly
[06:46] <ogra> sladen: looks like Treenaks is at the right track....
[06:47] <Treenaks> or it is just plain random hanging.. i.e. a race condition somewhere
[06:47] <sladen> ogra: I'm inclined to agree
[06:48] <sladen> what's puzzling me is that sometimes zero, one or two of  (show-all-windows applet and background come up)
[06:48] <ogra> Treenaks: but it works the first time fine.....
[06:48] <sladen> are they just the first two items in the load order
[06:48] <Treenaks> ogra: always? or sometimes?
[06:48] <ogra> Treenaks: good question.... i was guessing....
[06:49] <sladen> sudo -u fred rm -r /home/fred/.gnome*  && it works again
[06:50] <sladen> logout, login, okay
[06:52] <Treenaks> why is mutt "stuttering" when I browse my mail over IMAP?
[06:52] <Treenaks> sladen: I really think it's race thing, as it happens here 50% of the time
[06:55] <Treenaks> (because mail_check == 5)
[06:57] <sladen> cya?
[07:03] <sladen> Treenaks: what's because mail_check == 5 ?
[07:03] <ogra> sladen: <Treenaks> why is mutt "stuttering"
[07:03] <Treenaks> sladen: what ogra says :)
[07:04] <sladen> okay.  Just got excited there for a moment
[07:05] <davyd> who here cares about power management in Ubuntu
[07:05] <davyd> besides seb
[07:06] <Treenaks> all laptop owners :)
[07:06] <Treenaks> mjg59 too
[07:06] <davyd> I mean from a dev point of view
[07:06] <Treenaks> mjg59 then
[07:06] <davyd> I think I've solved Seb's problem of never receiving ac_adapter events
[07:07] <davyd> the script is too long, so the event arrives about 30 seconds late
[07:07] <davyd> or sometimes it seems, not at all
[07:07] <ogra> 30 second ? lol
[07:08] <mjg59> Eww
[07:09] <mjg59> How does it do that?
[07:09] <davyd> mjg59: events aren't forwarded on the socket until after the script has done processing on them
[07:09] <davyd> I think it's so you can jam them
[07:09] <davyd> and do other things
[07:09] <davyd> your script takes forever and a day to execute
[07:10] <davyd> I managed to improve interactivity by wrapping it in power_script() { }
[07:10] <davyd> and going power_script & at the end
[07:10] <davyd> this at least causes things like the battery applet to update immediately
[07:10] <davyd> however, the script does execute too slow
[07:11] <davyd> so other things I'm doing, like changing LCD brightness happen much after I expect them
[07:11] <mjg59> davyd: Hrm. Where is it actually taking the time?
[07:12] <mjg59> Adding a set -x to the top and tail -f /var/log/acpi.log ought to show you that
[07:12] <davyd> mjg59: hang on, I'm just changing other things
[07:12] <davyd> you are able to use, if on_ac_power; then
[07:13] <davyd> on_ac_power is a program provided by something or other
[07:13] <davyd> should be quicker then grepping I feel...
[07:13] <shaya> yay
[07:13] <shaya> evolution works
[07:13] <mjg59> davyd: It's a shell script that greps :)
[07:13] <shaya> davyd: it's been fixed
[07:13] <mjg59> on_ac_power actually does /more/ greps than power.sh
[07:14] <davyd> mjg59: does it?
[07:14] <davyd> what else is it doing?
[07:16] <mjg59> Which? on_ac_power?
[07:16] <mjg59> It greaps for on-line and then greps again for off-line
[07:16] <mjg59> No idea why
[07:18] <davyd> interesting...
[07:18] <mjg59> davyd: Sometimes the xscreensaver stuff seems to take some time if the user isn't logged in
[07:19] <davyd> mjg59: I've taken that out, it's still slow
[07:19] <mjg59> Very odd.
[07:20] <mjg59> If you could try set -xing it and then tailing the output, that would help a great deal
[07:20] <davyd> I'm playing with that now
[07:21] <davyd> there is an f-ing sleep 5 in there...
[07:21] <davyd> I wonder what that is meant to do?
[07:22] <mjg59> Yeah, that was to work around an acpi bug where the status wasn't always updated the moment the event appeared
[07:22] <mjg59> (IIRC)
[07:22] <davyd> nice...
[07:23] <davyd> ok, well I'm removing that, and a lot of other cruft
[07:23] <davyd> I recommend that you wrap the entire script in a function() { }
[07:23] <davyd> and call function & at the end
[07:23] <davyd> to stop it blocking events
[07:24] <davyd> that should unfuck things like battstat
[07:24] <mjg59> Yeah, but it'd be nice to know /why/ it's blocking events
[07:24] <davyd> mjg59: because acpid is a POS?
[07:24] <mjg59> Ah, sorry, not that - I know that it serialises everything
[07:24] <davyd> you can probably use exit codes to eat events or somesuch
[07:24] <mjg59> But why the script is taking so long
[07:24] <davyd> mjg59: the sleep 5 can't help ;)
[07:24] <davyd> I've taken that out, and the X probing stuff and the x screensaver stuff
[07:24] <davyd> and now it's nice
[07:25] <mjg59> The X stuff is fairly necessary, until we get HAL love
[07:25] <davyd> I don't need any of those things anyway ;)
[07:27] <mjg59> Was someone working on battery support for HAL?
[07:27] <davyd> sergey I think
[07:27] <Treenaks> that would rock
[07:30] <mjg59> Hrm. We tended to find that powernowd behaved a lot better.
[07:31] <davyd> many people have said so
[07:31] <davyd> I haven't managed a lot of joy with it
[07:32] <davyd> I hate them both
[07:32] <davyd> mjg59: http://live.gnome.org/PowerManager
[07:33] <mjg59> davyd: Yeah, that sort of thing
[07:33] <davyd> mjg59: that's my grand vision
[07:33] <mjg59> Mm. Nice.
[07:33] <davyd> as soon as HAL gets it's act together I'm writing it
[07:34] <davyd> along with weather.gnome.org
[07:34] <davyd> which we should have reading for 2.12
[07:34] <Treenaks> davyd: as long as PowerManager doesn't become the useless bloated PoS that NetworkManager is becoming...
[07:34] <davyd> Treenaks: I haven't got that working yet
[07:34] <davyd> is it in Hoary now?
[07:34] <Treenaks> davyd: ask Thom about it
[07:35] <mjg59> NetworkManager /was/ going to be the default in Hoary
[07:35] <davyd> but?
[07:35] <Treenaks> mjg59: until the authors smoked some BAD crack
[07:35] <mjg59> It, uh, doesn't really work
[07:35] <davyd> aah
[07:35] <mjg59> It's a mess of scary race conditions internally
[07:35] <davyd> nice...
[07:35] <Treenaks> it doesn't save its state to /etc/network/interfaces. it doesn't use /etc/network/interfaces to READ state
[07:36] <Treenaks> it doesn't use ifup/ifdown, but re-implements everything
[07:36] <davyd> Treenaks: that's by design
[07:36] <mjg59> netapplet is entirely and utterly the wrong answer, but has the side effect of working
[07:36] <davyd> although it should wrap ifup and ifdown
[07:36] <Treenaks> davyd: it doesn't.. they implented their own DHCP client
[07:37] <Treenaks> (and we know how well RedHat DHCP clients work *cough*pump*cough*)
[07:37] <davyd> heh
[07:38] <davyd> the basis behind not using everyones network config system is a good idea
[07:38] <davyd> non of them work well in the desktop space
[07:38] <Treenaks> davyd: /etc/network/interfaces + mapping would
[07:38] <davyd> network/interfaces is great for machines that never change IPs
[07:38] <davyd> and fantastic for things with routers
[07:38] <davyd> and sysconfig is simply not good for anything
[07:38] <Treenaks> davyd: maybe a /etc/network/interfaces.d with a file for each network (by name)
[07:39] <davyd> Treenaks: or maybe not trying to hack a solution together ;)
[07:39] <davyd> and instead let users control it
[07:39] <Kamion> /etc/network/interfaces is the thing that installers understand, though, and everything else in the distribution
[07:39] <Treenaks> davyd: yes, read the BOF notes from the conference
[07:39] <Treenaks> davyd: this was discussed there :)
[07:39] <Kamion> if you don't give a damn about integration with distributions, NM's approach makes sense; unfortunately integration is kind of important if you happen to be the distribution
[07:39] <mjg59> Having two methods for working with network configuration is pain
[07:39] <davyd> I mean, the idea behind PowerManager is to get rid of those hokillion daemons
[07:40] <davyd> and the config crack
[07:40] <davyd> and have no more random shell scripts
[07:40] <mjg59> davyd: Yeah, that makes sense
[07:40] <davyd> and just have an applications, with some nice plugins, that knows ALL the state
[07:40] <davyd> no unix sockets, not constantly polling proc and blocking the kernel up
[07:40] <davyd> beautiful and clean
[07:40] <davyd> and dbus
[07:40] <Treenaks> davyd: that's different.. power has a set amount of states and configuration is broken atm. networks already have a configuration interface
[07:40] <mjg59> Abstracting at that level is the right thing to do
[07:41] <davyd> lots of dbus
[07:41] <mjg59> But network interfaces are already abstracted at about that level
[07:41] <Treenaks> davyd: unless PowerManager is going to aim to replace acpid, then I'll personally kill the devs
[07:41] <davyd> Treenaks: that's part of the plan yes
[07:41] <davyd> acpid is a piece of shit
[07:41] <Treenaks> davyd: as long as I don't need f'ing gconf to configure it I won't mind too much
[07:42] <davyd> Treenaks: nah, that sounds painful
[07:42] <davyd> although users might have gconf settings they feed to it via dbus
[07:42] <Treenaks> davyd: that's the case with NM if you're not running X
[07:42] <mjg59> Per-user config probably ought to have stuff in gconf
[07:42] <davyd> mjg59: indeed
[07:42] <mjg59> But really, what you want is:
[07:42] <davyd> need to think of a way to do global config sanely
[07:43] <mjg59> 1) a daemon that listens for events and propagates them
[07:43] <mjg59> 2) a system-wide client that is small and does important stuff
[07:43] <mjg59> 3) a per-user client that integrates nicely with their desktop
[07:43] <davyd> problem with 3 is permissions of course
[07:43] <mjg59> Yeah. 
[07:44] <davyd> in my current sketch
[07:44] <mjg59> We need a good way of figuring out who is actually physically in front of the machine
[07:44] <davyd> 3 would receive dbus events from the daemon
[07:44] <davyd> and then send back requests
[07:44] <davyd> and assuming the permissions model allows it
[07:44] <mjg59> Because currently, all solutions suck
[07:44] <davyd> will complete them
[07:44] <davyd> mjg59: we're too damned multi user ;)
[07:44] <davyd> perhaps we should just run in single user mode ;)
[07:45] <mjg59> Haha
[07:45] <mjg59> lindows has it easy
[07:45] <mjg59> But this is a problem when it comes to things like scanner access, too
[07:45] <davyd> we have some terminal server clients that run in single user mode or something vaguely like it
[07:45] <davyd> they work nicely
[07:45] <mjg59> Actually, it's not /too/ hard to figure out who's at the console
[07:45] <mjg59> PAM can do that for you
[07:45] <davyd> mjg59: I thought there were issues with that module?
[07:46] <mjg59> davyd: The issue isn't that you have no idea who's at the console at this moment in time
[07:46] <mjg59> The issue is that the last person at the console potentially still has open filehandles
[07:46] <davyd> evil hack of the day... installing CVS gnome-applets into /opt and then convincing bonobo to use them
[07:46] <davyd> so Ubuntu can give me development GNOME
[07:46] <davyd> and I can have the bleeding edge applet-love I crave
[07:47] <mjg59> If the kernel had a revoke() call, this would be much easier
[07:48] <davyd> Treenaks: you kinda should run CVS when you're the maintainer
[07:48] <davyd> not that I've been much of a maintainer lately
[07:49] <Treenaks> davyd: that sounds like a valid reason :)
[07:49] <Treenaks> davyd: I'm not a maintainer though ;)
[07:49] <ogra_dinner> Treenaks: yet ? :)
[07:50] <Treenaks> ogra_dinner: not gnome upstream.. PLEASE NOT GNOME UPSTREAM
[07:50] <Treenaks> ;)
[07:50] <ogra_dinner> heh