[12:02] <Kamion> ChrisH: which distribution?
[12:04] <ChrisH> Kamion: sid
[12:04] <ChrisH> Kamion: Perhaps pbuilder/debootstrap are just plain broken atm... (?)
[12:06] <Kamion> there's a bug about that, pppoeconf is broken
[12:06] <Kamion> disallowed dependency change in base system
[12:06] <Kamion> (*ahem* *removes Debian RM hat*)
[12:06] <ChrisH> I have problems with bash depending on passwd which is not there. :(
[12:07] <Kamion> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=285496
[12:07] <Kamion> hm, really?
[12:07] <Kamion> oh, warty
[12:07] <ChrisH> Yes, plain Warty with a local Debian mirror.
[12:07] <Kamion> warty is older than sarge/sid, and in general you must have a version of debootstrap at least as new as the version you're trying to bootstrap
[12:07] <Kamion> try with hoary's debootstrap
[12:08] <Kamion> debootstrap (0.2.39.1) unstable; urgency=low
[12:08] <Kamion>   * NMU
[12:08] <Kamion>   * add passwd to sid.buildd,sarge.buildd as bash depends on them
[12:08] <Kamion>  -- Junichi Uekawa <dancer@debian.org>  Fri,  9 Jul 2004 09:07:28 +0900
[12:08] <ChrisH> Is warty too old for that? Shouldn't debootstrap get everything from any debian distribution?
[12:08] <Kamion> debootstrap | 0.2.39ubuntu22 |         warty | source, amd64, i386, powerpc
[12:08] <Kamion> no, doesn't work that way I'm afraid
[12:09] <Kamion> debootstrap has a hardcoded list of base packages which needs to be changed from time to time as the distribution changes
[12:11] <siretart> is hoary's bootstrap beeing held uptodate to install all distributions and versions from both ubuntu and debian? are there any drawbacks with installing hoary's debootstrap in a sarge system?
[12:14] <Kamion> we're merging Debian changes into hoary's debootstrap until upstream version freeze in just the same way as we're doing with any other package.
[12:14] <Kamion> installing hoary's debootstrap on sarge should be fine
[12:16] <siretart> ah, ok. thanks for explanation.
[12:37] <Q-FUNK> really nice to see Ubuntu actively support amd64.
[12:37] <Q-FUNK> it's a nice architecture
[12:45] <bluefoxicy> does the formation of a new group have to be cleared with the Technical Board, or can it be recommended directly on the CommunityCouncilAgenda?
[12:46] <bluefoxicy> I'd imagine there's at least some process for this?
[12:47] <sivang> bluefoxicy: which group?
[12:48] <bluefoxicy> sivang:  I'm recommending on the TechnicalBoardAgenda currently to discuss one of the enhancements on the IdeaPool and clear the formation of the ParentalControlGroup or something
[12:48] <bluefoxicy> sivang:  there was an idea to create a "child-friendly" mode which would "disable web" and such
[12:48] <sivang> bluefoxicy: so basically you want to create a new ubuntu community team?
[12:48] <bluefoxicy> I put a bunch of comments under it on the IdeaPool about Squid and Dan'sGuardian
[12:49] <sivang> bluefoxicy: I've read your stuff there :)
[12:49] <bluefoxicy> sivang:  I . . want a new team to be formed :)
[12:49] <Q-FUNK> how queer. 
[12:49] <sivang> bluefoxicy: ok, so CC is the address if I'm not mistaken - also country teams and others..
[12:49] <sivang> bluefoxicy: (CommunityCouncil)
[12:50] <bluefoxicy> sivang:  alright.  I'll recommend discussion and *potential* creation of a team.
[12:51] <bluefoxicy> "MastersOfTheUniverse team"  XD
[12:51] <bluefoxicy> too much heman
[12:51] <sivang> bluefoxicy: hehe, I think this has been already discussed and ways are searched to see how to take this further.
[01:04] <bluefoxicy> sivang:  :)
[01:08] <ChrisH> Kamion: You were right. pbuilder works perfectly in Hoary. My misconception... I thought debootstrap was a bit too magic. :)
[01:20] <bluefoxicy> sivang: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[01:22] <sivang> bluefoxicy: interesting. I wonder how much this could make ubuntu attractive to school and orgs.
[01:23] <bluefoxicy> sivang:  websense is dog shit.
[01:23] <bluefoxicy> so I'd say fairly attractive.
[01:23] <bluefoxicy> Jessie used to surf porn all day in school, just hit spanish porno sites :P
[01:23] <smurfix> Gah
[01:24] <bluefoxicy> I think DG has various language support, so it should probably be able to filter unexpected URIs in various languages, instead of just what your administrators have located.
[01:24] <Kamion> by the way, to form a team you should have at least a couple of people interested in doing the work
[01:24] <smurfix> Forgive me for being blunt, but whose stupid idea is that?
[01:25] <Kamion> the team-forming process is not a way to recommend that something should be done
[01:25] <Kamion> it's a way of saying "we want to do this thing, please bless it"
[01:25] <bluefoxicy> Kamion:  . . . which is why I was originally aiming at putting that stuff on the tech board agenda page  -.-
[01:25] <bluefoxicy> should i move it?
[01:25] <Kamion> frankly it doesn't really sound appropriate for either body until you have people interested in doing the work
[01:26] <bluefoxicy> Kamion: I'm only suggesting to discuss the idea and determine if it's a worthy endeavor, and if a team should be formed
[01:26] <usual> will gstreamer in hoary support playing dvd's?
[01:26] <Kamion> no, getting interested people is not supposed to be the hard bit
[01:26] <Kamion> do that first
[01:26] <bluefoxicy> I didn't get that part across clear did I?
[01:26] <bluefoxicy> Kamion:  I thought discussing it in CC was how you determined if people were interested in it
[01:27] <Kamion> nope, discussing it in the community at large is how you determine if people are interested in it
[01:27] <Kamion> the CC is only four people
[01:27] <bluefoxicy> smurfix: " A child-friendly option on Ubuntu so parents can turn on/off functionlity + browsing web - LouiseMcCancePrice?"
[01:27] <sivang> Kamion: doesn
[01:27] <bluefoxicy> smurfix:  I'm just supplying half the answers :)
[01:28] <sivang> Kamion: doesn't a "member" considered to have voting rights in the CC?
[01:28] <Kamion> no, only voting rights to *appoint* the CC
[01:29] <bluefoxicy> Kamion:  should i take this to #ubuntu-users or #ubuntu-devel?
[01:29] <bluefoxicy> or both
[01:29] <Kamion> "Community Council meetings are open to all interested parties, but the Council seeks only to find consensus amongst Council members and representatives from the Team that submitted the proposal."
[01:29] <Kamion> #ubuntu-devel's fine
[01:29] <smurfix> Turning off web browsing is a bit different from implementing a content filter
[01:29] <Kamion> oh, the proposal? I'd suggest posting it on ubuntu-devel@lists and finding people who are interested in working on it
[01:30] <smurfix> The latter, frankly, is NOT something I'd want Ubuntu to have.
[01:30] <sivang> Kamion: ok, so, since I was agreed to become a memebr last CC meeting as per my contribs, what does this entails me?
[01:30] <Kamion> sivang: members elect the community council
[01:30] <sivang> Kamion: ah ok :)
[01:31] <Kamion> there might occasionally be other votes, but (a) I'd hope that would be rare and we can work on the IETF principle of rough consensus and working code and (b) we haven't really laid that down yet
[01:33] <Kamion> bluefoxicy: once you have a set of people interested, you can turn to the CC to make it an official team (which basically means you get to call it "Ubuntu <blah>", and get a bit more credibility in that section of the codebase)
[01:34] <Kamion> bluefoxicy: if there's a technical dispute, or if you think the technical direction of Ubuntu as a whole needs to be modified, you can make a representation to the TB
[01:34] <Kamion> the TB will consult teams if/when issues relevant to those teams come up
[01:34] <bluefoxicy> Kamion:  it's modular
[01:35] <bluefoxicy> you could develop this stuff and install Ubuntu with or without it.
[01:35] <Kamion> right, so shouldn't involve a change of technical direction
[01:35] <bluefoxicy> things like the security stuff is more for the TB
[01:35] <bluefoxicy> since that requires major examination and touches everything in the system
[01:36] <Kamion> the TB is also responsible for packaging standards, release goals, and package selection
[01:36] <bluefoxicy> cool
[01:36] <Kamion> although the last of those tends to be handled more informally by the mdz/jdub diumvirate
[01:36] <bluefoxicy> diuwtf/
[01:36] <bluefoxicy> use real words plzkthx
[01:36] <bluefoxicy> :)
[01:36] <Kamion> actually duumvirate
[01:36] <Kamion> see dict
[01:37] <bluefoxicy> "The union of two men"
[01:37] <Kamion> triumvirate is a more common word, for three people in the same office
[01:37] <bluefoxicy> . . . dude stop XD
[01:37] <bluefoxicy> heh
[01:45] <daniels> jdub: ping
[01:45] <daniels> or, even better, Kamion
[01:45] <Kamion> daniels: yep?
 Turning off web browsing is a bit different from implementing a content filter <smurfix> The latter, frankly, is NOT something I'd want Ubuntu to have.
[01:47] <bluefoxicy> smurfix:  you'd prefer filter=* instead of filter=*slut*?
[01:48] <bluefoxicy> smurfix:  tihs isn't big brother coming to sodomize your ass for having an opinion of your own and liking naked genetalia rubbing together.  It's simple policy.
[01:48] <Kamion> ah, scunthorpe
[01:50] <smurfix> Even hard AI isn't good enough to find out whether any particular parent is going to think a site'd be "harmful" to their kids
[01:50] <Kamion> did PICS basically entirely stop being useful, or what?
[01:50] <smurfix> Teaching responsible internet usage isn't going to be accomplishable with a content filter.
[01:51] <Kamion> (or was it ever useful?)
[01:51] <lifeless> PICS is entirely useful
[01:51] <smurfix> Kamion: Lots of sites don't bother
[01:51] <Kamion> smurfix: personally I think content filters are stupid, but local policy often requires them, and it can be a barrier to acceptance
[01:51] <lifeless> but... the spam-funding|funded sites don't categorise themselves
[01:53] <lifeless> also the referrer-revenue sites, where income != return custom, and is rather based on how many popups they can drive
[01:54] <bluefoxicy> smurfix:  i've hit a few issues with DG, but it's really good.
[01:54] <bluefoxicy> i've had it let me into a porn site, but not onto a page that had any questionable content
[01:55] <bluefoxicy> I surfed into a gallery and it was like "WTF NO"
[01:55] <lifeless> does it let you into a breast cancer site ?
[01:55] <smurfix> My issue is that _I_ am responsible for educating my kids how to use the Internet
[01:55] <bluefoxicy> lifeless:  maybe?
[01:55] <Kamion> yeah, false positives are often more the issue than false negatives
[01:55] <bluefoxicy> smurfix:  then don't enable the content filtering.
[01:55] <Kamion> or anything to do with sex education
[01:55] <smurfix> I am not going to fend that off to some sort of program, and neither am I willing to facilitate anybody else to do so, because I think it's ultimately harmful.
[01:55] <bluefoxicy> lifeless:  find me a breast cancer site
[01:56] <Kamion> or, as previously mentioned, Scunthorpe :-)
[01:56] <smurfix> bluefoxicy: google for it.
[01:56] <lifeless> bluefoxicy: you so should be able to find that yourself.
[01:56] <bluefoxicy> smurfix:  you don't just tell children not to look at porno
[01:56] <bluefoxicy> they get curious
[01:56] <Kamion> smurfix: bluefoxicy has said that he was opposed to it being on by default ...
[01:56] <lifeless> I mean, imagine you are in school, studying cancer.
[01:56] <smurfix> bluefoxicy: So what?
[01:56] <bluefoxicy> smurfix:  "My 9 year old daughter ordered a double ended anal probe from cumfucking.com"
[01:57] <Kamion> bluefoxicy: (they can do the same thing without using the internet, if they find a dodgy magazine under dad's bed)
[01:58] <bluefoxicy> yeah
[01:58] <lifeless> bluefoxicy: and ? - see Kamions answer, and the fact they won't have a clue what it really is - or if they do have a clue, the internet is /not/ the problem.
[01:58] <bluefoxicy> but dad usually locks those in the closet
[01:58] <bluefoxicy> lifeless:  I got most of my clues from the internet
[01:58] <bluefoxicy> :)
[01:58] <smurfix> bluefoxicy: Nice of her. Explain to her that she shouldn't do that on multiple grounds, none of which have anything to do with sex, and take away net access for a few.
[01:58] <bluefoxicy> the whole bdsm-s&m thing you know
[01:58] <lifeless> bluefoxicy: what does a d-e-a-p have to do with bdsm/s&m ?
[01:58] <bluefoxicy> you think I know what a buttplug is or what clover clips are or what a ring gag was designed for because they had those in school?
[01:59] <bluefoxicy> d-e-a-p?
[01:59] <lifeless> double-ended...
[01:59] <bluefoxicy> oh
[01:59] <bluefoxicy> nothing
[01:59] <Kamion> I think good parenting is kind of orthogonal to whether some people will demand content filtering regardless of whether it's a good idea or not, TBH
[01:59] <bluefoxicy> it was something from something else
[01:59] <smurfix> Kamion: The problem is that too many people are willing to use one as a substitute for the other.
[02:00] <Kamion> and I'm not sure Ubuntu is necessarily in the business of deciding what good parenting is
[02:00] <bluefoxicy> ok DG won't let me google breast cancer
[02:00] <bluefoxicy> smurfix:  yeah but look on the other end
[02:00] <smurfix> ... and I don't want to facilitate that.
[02:00] <lifeless> (old man mode) - when I was in school, there was no internet, but buttplugs & ring gags were openly discussed by the students.
[02:00] <bluefoxicy> you wouldn't use it even if it was there
[02:00] <bluefoxicy> but most parents who would use it already have a problem
[02:00] <bluefoxicy> either A) They're too lazy to deal with their kids, or B) they simply don't have time, or C) they don't know how.
[02:00] <lifeless> and TBH, with enough ignorance and stupidity, *more* education would have been a Good Thing.
[02:00] <Kamion> if it's there, at least you can file bugs on the filtering to make it less stupid
[02:00] <bluefoxicy> in any of those cases or any combination thereof, they'd let them get whatever the hell they want
[02:01] <bluefoxicy> you don't think that I'm gonna do my work just because you don't give me a way to push it off on someone else do you?
[02:01] <Kamion> and it's better than having people resort to a closed-source filter, where the company filters out sites run by people they don't like and won't tell you why.
[02:01] <bluefoxicy> I just won't do it.
[02:01] <lifeless> far too much is blamed on the net these days.
[02:01] <bluefoxicy> and
[02:01] <lifeless> Kamion: penguinfeet.org
[02:01] <bluefoxicy> there are other reasons beyond parenting.
[02:02] <bluefoxicy> It's not your place to decide that "What most people think is inappropriate should be up to the child to avoid" etc etc for one
[02:02] <bluefoxicy> schools for example must follow a certain metric
[02:02] <Kamion> lifeless: indeed, but if we select the least bad then we can try to keep it the least bad and have it be the thing people pick first, *if* they decide that they want something like that
[02:02] <bluefoxicy> a 6 year old can surf porno when he gets home if his parents don't do anything about it; but if the school lets him do it, and the parents don't approve, BAM
[02:02] <bluefoxicy> $50,000,000 lawsuit
[02:02] <bluefoxicy> taxpayers' money out the ass
[02:02] <Kamion> it's not so much making the world better as trying to stave off the worst of the crap that's going to be flowing in anyway
[02:02] <bluefoxicy> taxes go up
[02:02] <bluefoxicy> school quality goes down
[02:03] <lifeless> bluefoxicy: the parents chose a bad school.
[02:03] <bluefoxicy> next generation becomes stupider than this one.
[02:03] <bluefoxicy> lifeless:  and who chose to not give the school the tools they need to make themselves a good school?
[02:04] <lifeless> Kamion: not arguing against cf/domain blocking. Swelltech sell filtering to school, and did before I became fulltime @ Canonical.
[02:04] <lifeless> *schools*
[02:04] <bluefoxicy> then there's businesses
[02:04] <bluefoxicy> ever seen someone sue a business for stupd reasons?
[02:04] <bluefoxicy> . . . "Eenie meenie moinie moe" . .  . . . 
[02:05] <bluefoxicy> how much you wanna bet what's on the next coworker's screen can get your business sued for several hundred thousand if not a few milion?
[02:05] <lifeless> there is a big difference between collaborative database based blocking - which penguinfeet.org enables - or cerberian - and heuristic AI filtering such as dansguardian.
[02:05] <lifeless> bluefoxicy: how did you go with your breast cancer search ?
[02:05] <smurfix> lifeless: I agree
[02:06] <bluefoxicy> lifeless:  google got blocked.  :/
[02:06] <Kamion> lifeless: (razor versus spamassassin? :-))
[02:06] <Kamion> or maybe razor versus bogofilter
[02:06] <lifeless> Kamion: in a nutshell, yes. tried to get a email-report on viagra past spamassassin ?
[02:06] <bluefoxicy> lifeless:  yeah, colaborative database based blocking is inadequate and reacts to "uh oh somebody got something they shouldn't have, 'damage' done"
[02:06] <Kamion> nope, but I can imagine
[02:06] <lifeless> bluefoxicy: you just missed the point.
[02:06] <bluefoxicy> while DG and heuristics react to "oops.  Well that's stupid.  I'll unfilter that."
[02:06] <bluefoxicy> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.devel/2840
[02:07] <Kamion> lifeless: on the other hand I've been on the receiving end of a server being inappropriately blocked by RBLs *shrug*
[02:07] <bluefoxicy> lifeless:  No, I don't think I did.
[02:07] <bluefoxicy> you're complaining about filtering things that are harmless
[02:07] <bluefoxicy> which is a "fail-unsafe"
[02:07] <lifeless> Kamion: is razor a single-report blocker? or do they need confirmation/review ?
[02:07] <bluefoxicy> while I'm complaining about failing to filter things that are indeed against policy
[02:08] <bluefoxicy> er.
[02:08] <bluefoxicy> that's a fail-unsafe
[02:08] <Kamion> uh, I don't think it was razor as such, and I don't remember what razor's policy is
[02:08] <bluefoxicy> the other is a fail-safe
[02:08] <lifeless> Kamion: ok.
[02:08] <Kamion> bluefoxicy: um, that depends what "unsafe" means; as lifeless' cancer example demonstrates, the desired failure mode is variable
[02:08] <bluefoxicy> if you can easily correct the situation with no lasting effects it's a fail safe.  If policy is violated in an irrevocable way it's a fail-unsafe.
[02:09] <lifeless> well, can I suggest that if a content reviewing team is being established, that it works with an existing team - such as penguinfeet.org - rather than inventing a wheel from scratch.
[02:09] <bluefoxicy> Kamion:  Yes and i believe that the desired failure mode for most people who would actually enable this stuff is going to be fail-safe, i.e. block things that shouldn't be blocked
[02:09] <Kamion> bluefoxicy: that sounds like a coded way of saying "false positives don't matter"
[02:09] <bluefoxicy> Kamion:  no, false positives matter, but can be corrected
[02:09] <smurfix> bluefoxicy: Unblocking isn't always that easy.
[02:09] <bluefoxicy> false negatives however expose content which you wanted filtered, which you can't undo
[02:10] <bluefoxicy> once you've seen it you can't un-see it.
[02:10] <bluefoxicy> for example, you hit goatse.cx
[02:10] <bluefoxicy> and decide that that should be filtered.
[02:10] <lifeless> bluefoxicy: fail-safe == 'I failed my assignment because I couldn't look up X' or fail-safe == 'my daughter saw a page which meant nothing to her, once'.
[02:10] <Kamion> I think any content reviewing team ought to conduct a survey of the available technologies and pick either one or a combination of the most appropriate
[02:10] <bluefoxicy> now how do you clense the image of this guy's wide open ass from your brain.
[02:10] <Kamion> I certainly don't think they should be writing a content filter from scratch; that's been done
[02:11] <Kamion> they might want to optionally glue a couple together, and work with the relevant upstreams
[02:11] <bluefoxicy> lifeless:  "My daughter saw a page with some girl sucking som eguy's dick. . . jimmy's mom called me up the next day. . . uhhh. . . "
[02:11] <lifeless> Kamion: of course not.. but I'm not talking technology.
[02:11] <bluefoxicy> "I explained it to her and told her not to until she was like, older. . . but she didn't listen. . . "
[02:11] <Kamion> bluefoxicy: although images != text to some extent here
[02:11] <bluefoxicy> Kamion:  true, but normally images are associated with text
[02:12] <bluefoxicy> you'd expect to find porno on a porn site yes?  :)
[02:12] <smurfix> Trying to solve social problems with technology is no fun.
[02:12] <bluefoxicy> smurfix:  of course it isn't.
[02:12] <lifeless> bluefoxicy: my god, you've got a low opinion of your daughter. in one shot, you're saying that shes sexually promiscuous, knows enough of whats going on that seeing a photo of a blowjob is all it takes to tip her over the edge..!!
[02:12] <Kamion> lifeless: a content filtering team needs to talk technology though, and the people they choose to work with will be selected depending on what seems to be best
[02:12] <bluefoxicy> smurfix:  but then again, you can't really explain a social problem can you :)
[02:12] <smurfix> ... and I'd rather not start down that road in the first place.
[02:12] <bluefoxicy> lifeless:  I don't have a daughter.
[02:13] <smurfix> Well, I do. (More than one, in fact.)
[02:13] <bluefoxicy> lifeless:  I'm just saying children are curious and do not have a full grasp on these things
[02:13] <lifeless> bluefoxicy: you can't have it both ways.
[02:13] <bluefoxicy> and most parents I don't expect to actually go through this with their kids.
[02:13] <bluefoxicy> I understand cause and effect fairly well, considering I find it thrilling when i can manipulate somebody's thoughts and actions just by nudging them around
[02:14] <smurfix> bluefoxicy: "cause and effect" is not nearly as simple
[02:14] <Kamion> children are naturally sexually curious with or without the internet (if it weren't that, it'd be playground talk and swapped magazines), it's just a matter of what people blame
[02:14] <lifeless> bluefoxicy: well, in your 'fail safe' mode, standard spammer tactics will get past text, and from what I recall image recognition is still pretty hit and miss. I'm damn sure I can make pages that you'd consider 'unsafe' that dansguardian will miss.
[02:14] <smurfix> Young people *have* on occasion been looking at rotten.com with no lasting ill effect
[02:15] <bluefoxicy> lifeless:  yeah, intentionally I bet you can
[02:15] <Kamion> I think we need to recognise that content filters have no chance whatsoever of saving the world or children's souls; they're filling a demand, pure and simple.
[02:15] <bluefoxicy> Kamion:  yes
[02:15] <Kamion> And talk about how dreadful life would be without content filters inevitably misses the point.
[02:15] <bluefoxicy> which is primarily my concern in the first place, why the hell am i arguing about children
[02:15] <lifeless> bluefoxicy: if many folk use dansguardian, the folk that are a problem (that is primarily non-PICS advertising based sites) will resort to such tactics to get their sites past the filters.
[02:15] <bluefoxicy> I've never used a damn content filter seriously, just poked with 'em.
[02:15] <smurfix> bluefoxicy: you started it ... you explain it
[02:16] <lifeless> the same as happens with spam.
[02:16] <bluefoxicy> smurfix:  i'm confused already
[02:16] <lifeless> Kamion: full ack.
[02:16] <bluefoxicy> I didn't enter this conversation with a constructed argument
[02:16] <smurfix> bluefoxicy: Good for you.
[02:16] <Kamion> anyway, night all
[02:16] <bluefoxicy> not about children anyway
[02:16] <bluefoxicy> more about business
[02:16] <lifeless> Kamion: night.
[02:16] <bluefoxicy> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.devel/2840
[02:17] <lifeless> bluefoxicy: you posted that before.
[02:17] <bluefoxicy> did you read it?
[02:17] <lifeless> yes.
[02:17] <bluefoxicy> ok then
[02:17] <lifeless> its largely orthogonal to the discussion here.
[02:17] <bluefoxicy> be.cause that's about all I intended to say.
[02:17] <bluefoxicy> orthagonal
[02:18] <bluefoxicy> orthogonal
[02:18] <bluefoxicy> what the hell does geometry have to do with coherant thought
[02:18] <bluefoxicy> ugh
[02:19] <bluefoxicy> I told dad to get me beef lo mein
[02:19] <bluefoxicy> and he got me beef and vegetable lo mein or something
[02:19] <bluefoxicy> my stomach hurts  x.x
[02:32] <crimsun> bluefoxicy: the other major definition of 'orthogonal' :)
[02:53] <bluefoxicy> lifeless:  <@MadMethod> or... say that part of teaching responcibilty is keeping tabs on your children so that you can punish them thusly when they disobey.. dansguardian is capable of only logging naughty sites and not expliticly blocking
[02:54] <bluefoxicy> lifeless:  does that work for you then?  :o
[06:03] <thully> hi - does anyone know if Ubuntu does any special detection during the install to enable subpixel for LCDs?
[06:04] <chrisa> By that do you mean subpixel rendering?
[06:04] <thully> yes
[06:05] <thully> I wondered what exactly it did to get the fonts how they are - hoary in particular, as for some reason hoary's fonts are superior to warty's
[06:11] <crimsun> thully: X.Org's truetype module is more current; fontconfig is also configured differently, I presume.
[06:11] <thully> so, is subpixel being enabled by default?  If so, for all machines or for only a few?
[06:12] <crimsun> I haven't looked at the dexconf logic; daniels probably knows better.
[06:15] <thully> IS this Ubuntu-specific, or is it in debian as well?
[06:18] <crimsun> I presume it's currently matched for Ubuntu but easily set for Debian.
[06:23] <daniels> xtt is deprecated in favour of freetype2
[06:23] <crimsun> daniels: so just load "freetype", correct?
[06:26] <daniels> crimsun: yeah
[06:26] <thully> I'm wondering specifically if subpixel rendering is ever used in Ubuntu, and if so what triggers it's use
[06:26] <crimsun> daniels: thanks.
[06:28] <chrisa> thully: dpkg-reconfigure fontconfig, or check /etc/fonts/fonts.conf
[06:28] <chrisa> make that local.conf
[06:29] <thully> I've looked there - see nothing of subpixel being used under any circumstances - is it ever used in Ubuntu
[06:30] <thully> when? under what circumstances?
[06:34] <crimsun> give me 3 minutes to walk to another lab and I'll see.
[06:38] <crimsun> well, upon inspection of local.conf on a machine that was upgraded from warty->hoary, neither subpixel nor autohinting are enabled
[06:39] <crimsun> thully: did you upgrade to or install hoary directly?
[06:39] <bluefoxicy> mmm autohinting
[06:39] <thully> no - I installed hoary directly
[06:40] <bluefoxicy> 5/3 3 5|
[06:40] <bluefoxicy> nice.
[06:40] <crimsun> welp, I suppose that leaves us with "it's enabled if the user runs dpkg-reconfigure"
[06:40] <thully> so, in other words - it's not enabled by default?
[06:41] <crimsun> not that I can see on my upgraded machines
[06:41] <thully> Because, I installed hoary clean on a laptop and had clean fonts with no miscoloring by defaultn 
[06:42] <daniels> i believe sub-pixel hinting is enabled per default
[06:43] <daniels> on laptops
[06:43] <daniels> but I could be wrong.
[06:43] <thully> I wonder how it is done, though?
[06:43] <daniels> what do you mean?
[06:43] <fabbione> morning 
[06:43] <thully> how is it detected
[06:44] <daniels> thully: laptop-detect
[06:44] <thully> I wonder if it is 1)run laptop-detect 2) if is a laptop is true, install local.conf w/subpixel, etc 3) if laptop is not true, do nothing
[06:44] <daniels> that's certainly how it used to work
[06:44] <thully> how does it work now?
[06:45] <daniels> yes, that is exactly how it still works
[06:46] <thully> OK - thanks
[06:47] <thully> One more question - I think I'm not going to continue running hoary, but I've reported some bugs involving hoary.  How do I make it clear on these bugs that I can't provide further feedback?
[06:47] <fabbione> daniels: back in au?
[06:54] <daniels> fabbione: yo dude, yeah
[06:54] <daniels> fabbione: how's things?
[06:54] <fabbione> daniels: could be better
[06:55] <crimsun> feeling better, fabbione?
[06:55] <fabbione> crimsun: yeah
[06:55] <crimsun> excellent.
[06:55] <fabbione> i think i am just getting older
[06:55] <fabbione> yesterday i woke up that i couldn't move my neck at all
[06:55] <crimsun> damn
[06:55] <fabbione> today is a bit better
[06:56] <crimsun> :)  let's hope for a speed recovery
[06:56] <fabbione> well yeah
[06:56] <fabbione> i am tired of spending my time in bed
[06:57] <crimsun> I can imagine that would become old rather quickly
[06:57] <crimsun> got wireless?
[06:57] <fabbione> yeah
[06:57] <daniels> fabbione: ugh :\ yeah, hope you get better soon
[06:57] <fabbione> daniels: it sucks to be me :-)
[07:18] <fabbione> daniels: are you up to prepare a new l-k-r-m for 2.6.10 (tomorrow.. not now ;))
[07:20] <daniels> fabbione: yeah, sure
[07:21] <fabbione> afaik 6629 from nvidia doesn't build on 2.6.10
[07:21] <fabbione> so they will never be done ;)
[07:21] <fabbione> ops
[07:24] <crimsun> this url is useful then: http://sh.nu/t/5hucy
[07:24] <crimsun> (RE: Nvidia & 2.6.10)
[07:41] <daniels> heh
[07:41] <daniels> cheers :)
[07:41] <crimsun> :)
[02:00] <daniels> seeeeeebbbbbbbb
[02:11] <sjoerd> poor seb
[02:17] <Treenaks> sjoerd: he deserves it ;)
[02:18] <sjoerd> watch out of you might deserve the ``wrath of seb'' in the future :)
[02:38] <fabbione> don't even think about touching our seb!
[02:38] <fabbione> or you will be damned forever
[02:41] <daniels> i just want to bitch at him about gtk :)
[02:41] <fabbione> oh you mean that kernel core dump?
[02:41] <fabbione> yeah it has to be a gtk bug
[02:41] <daniels> clearly :)
[02:41] <fabbione> actually
[02:42] <fabbione> there is a gtk bug in the kernel :-)
[02:42] <fabbione> #5029
[02:42] <fabbione> = segfault
[03:08] <mjg59> daniels: Is there any sane way to hook xresconf into the thing that munges the video BIOS for i855 systems with weird layouts?
[03:18] <fabbione> hey mjg59 
[03:20] <mjg59> Hi
[04:38] <daniels> mjg59: 855patch/855wrap/whatever?  dunno
[04:40] <mjg59> daniels: What happens if you run xresprobe on one of those machines?
[04:54] <bob2`> apache2 sucks because it gets very confused by large files
[04:54] <bob2`> that is all
[05:01] <daniels> mjg59: it will report the size of the panel
[05:01] <daniels> mjg59: afaik
[05:01] <daniels> mjg59: or maybe it will just report 1024x768
[05:01] <daniels> i actually don't know
[05:01] <daniels> does anyone here own a machine with one of the wacky 16:9 LCDs?
[05:03] <mjg59> edd has one
[05:04] <mjg59> It needs to be one of the ones without the native resolution in the BIOS, though
[05:04] <bob2`> does the livecd have whatever tool you need said 16:9 owner to run?
[05:07] <daniels> mjg59: yeah
[05:07] <daniels> bob2: nope, just xresprobe; it's an install system thing
[05:09] <bob2`> ah, dang
[05:09] <mjg59> Problem is, we need to run the 855resolution thing on resume
[05:10] <mjg59> And it would be nice if it could be run in install, too
[05:10] <bob2`> hrm, evolution doesn't actually seem to let you specify a port for an imap server
[05:11] <mjg59> Put :foo after the hostname
[05:11] <bob2`> tried that, seems to not be able to connect
[05:11] <mjg59> Hrm. Weird.
[05:13] <bob2`> ah, my fault
[05:30] <trulux> hey pitti
[05:32] <daniels> mjg59: oh christ
[05:32] <daniels> mjg59: this is why I hate 855*
[05:33] <daniels> mjg59: problem is, which one to run and with which options is utterly indeterminate
[05:33] <pitti> Hi trulux 
[05:34] <pitti> trulux: btw, I'm currently compiling 2.6.10-grsecurity :-)
[05:36] <trulux> pitti, nice
[05:44] <sladen> Riddell: libretto...  mmm, 
[05:45] <sladen> Riddell: 800x480, trouble is, the in-chipset magic describes the LCD as being 800x600
[05:47] <daniels> sladen: oooh.  so xresprobe i810 reports it being as 800x600?
[05:48] <sladen> it's a neomagic.  Haven't tried it recently---it's in London and I'm in Nottingham
[05:48] <daniels> ahr, neomagic
[05:49] <sladen> daniels: lack of anything except PCMCIA and no PXE makes installing Ubuntu somewhat fun
[05:49] <daniels> heh, whoops.
[05:49] <sladen> daniels: what happened to your leet bootspeed magic.  I'm playing with ACPI and the continual rebooting-after-lockup could do with a speed boost
[05:50] <daniels> sladen: the xorg stuff is in there, gdm is waiting for me to return from holiday
[05:50] <daniels> anyway, got to run now
[05:50] <daniels> bbl
[05:55] <mjg59> daniels: The alternative is to package 855resolution, add a config file somewhere, get users to configure it manually and then use that on the resume pathway
[05:55] <daniels> mjg59: true.  i could do that.
[05:56] <daniels> maybe I could package it with vbetool ;)
[05:56] <Treenaks> #2312 even
[05:57] <mjg59> Treenaks: Are you sure the card supports channel 13?
[05:57] <mjg59> Sounds like a firmware issue rather than a driver one
[05:57] <Treenaks> mjg59: yes
[05:57] <Treenaks> mjg59: in windows the same card works fine (someone else's machine)
[05:58] <Treenaks> mjg59: also, it shows up on scans
[05:58] <mjg59> Ah. Possibly the included firmware won't work on channel 13?
[05:58] <Treenaks> US vs EU firmware?
[05:58] <mjg59> It could be european firmware
[05:58] <mjg59> Yeah
[05:58] <Treenaks> hm
[05:58] <Treenaks> that'd suck :)
[05:58] <Keybuk> isn't EU firmware the one that works on more channels?
[05:58] <mjg59> It might be possible to extract the firmware from the windows drivers
[05:59] <Treenaks> Keybuk: EU has 2 more channels (12, 13)
[05:59] <Treenaks> it works fine on my other (atmel_cs) card
[05:59] <Treenaks> (by that card needs an iwpriv call)
[05:59] <Keybuk> yeah, sounds right; I remember a friend having an EU AP and wondering why his card couldn't see it (wrong channel)
[05:59] <Treenaks> by=but
[06:01] <Treenaks> yay.. more people with the bug: http://prism54.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=652
[06:21] <mako> jdub: for you: http://mako.yukidoke.org/copyrighteous/reflections/20050102-00
[06:47] <sladen> mjg59: can you add to your wishlist, turning the fans up to maximum during hibernate (to get rid of excess heat)
[06:51] <Keybuk> any particular reason?
[07:01] <pitti> seb128: Hi, happy new year 2005!
[07:01] <seb128> hey ! Happy new year :)
[07:01] <pitti> seb128: btw, do you have any idea why the clock applet crashes and doesn't start any more?
[07:02] <seb128> could you start /usr/lib/gnome-panel/clock-applet in a gt
[07:02] <seb128> then add the applet to the panel
[07:02] <seb128> and look on the log in the gt
[07:02] <pitti> ah
[07:02] <pitti> /usr/lib/gnome-panel/clock-applet: error while loading shared libraries: libplds4.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
[07:02] <seb128> that's it :)
[07:02] <pitti> seb128: a dependency problem?
[07:02] <seb128> mozilla-firefox: /usr/lib/mozilla-firefox/libplds4.so
[07:02] <seb128> hum
[07:03] <seb128> WTF
[07:03] <pitti> /usr/lib/openoffice/program/libplds4.so
[07:03] <seb128> libnspr4: /usr/lib/libplds4.so
[07:03] <_rene_> and mozilla should have too
[07:03] <pitti> seb128: I don't have this package
[07:03] <seb128> install libnspr4 ?
[07:03] <pitti> seb128: that should be a dependency then
[07:03] <seb128> yep
[07:03] <pitti> seb128: I use to keep my system clean with deborphan :-)
[07:04] <seb128> dunno why it's not automagically added
[07:04] <pitti> seb128: shall I file a bug?
[07:04] <_rene_> because it has no shlibs beacause its versioning is broken I guess
[07:04] <seb128> $ ldd /usr/lib/gnome-panel/clock-applet | grep libplds4
[07:04] <seb128>         libplds4.so => /usr/lib/libplds4.so (0xb72e2000)
[07:05] <pitti> seb128: btw, what does it do with the netscape library anyway? sounds a bit odd...
[07:05] <seb128> _rene_: ? I thought it was doing a ldd and a query on each dep to know the Depends
[07:05] <_rene_> seb128: yes, and what does it do when there's no .shlibs?
[07:05] <_rene_> seb128: just add it?
[07:05] <pitti> I think it uses shlibs files
[07:05] <seb128> pitti: good question, let me ask
[07:06] <seb128> _rene_: why does it need a shlibs ? I mean ldd, dpkg -S ... no need of a shlib to get this 
[07:06] <_rene_> dpkg-shlibdeps gets its infos from .shlibs
[07:06] <_rene_> no idea what it does if there isn't one
[07:07] <pitti> seb128: installing the package helps btw, clock works again. thanks
[07:07] <_rene_> and since libnspr4 is a mozilla library it is broken
[07:07] <_rene_> not correctly versioned, yada, yada
[07:07] <pitti> seb128, _rene_: it uses shlibs file to get the package version dependency right
[07:07] <pitti> seb128, _rene_: ldd does not tell you which version of a library package you have to depend on
[07:08] <seb128> yeah, but no version should -> no versionned depends
[07:08] <seb128> but still a depends
[07:09] <seb128> BTW that's probably a depends due to evolution-data-server
[07:10] <seb128> pitti: please fill a bug as reminder, thanks
[07:11] <pitti> seb128: I'll do
[07:14] <pitti> seb128: #5135
[07:14] <seb128> ok
[09:21] <sivang> we are polishing some build and source files so it would be good to know...
[10:50] <wasabi_> So, I was pondering ways to deploy do corporate deployment of updates with Ubuntu... in a nice, UI, PHB friendly manner.
[10:50] <wasabi_> s/do//
[10:50] <wasabi_> actually that entire sentence sucks.
[10:51] <wasabi_> Do most people just make their own archive mirror, and copy packages from main over into it as they are 'tested'?
[10:51] <wasabi_> Sounds like a waste of space. =(
[10:53] <trulux> pitti, SELinux is now updated for 2.4.28
[10:53] <trulux> i've backported it
[10:53] <trulux> ;-)
[10:54] <wasabi> so who knows a lot about apt authentication?
[10:55] <pitti> wasabi: mvo
[10:55] <pitti> wasabi: and mdz
[10:56] <pitti> trulux: nice
[10:56] <pitti> trulux: so you enhanced your kernel hack skills now? :-)
[10:56] <trulux> pitti, seems working out-the-box
[10:56] <trulux> a bit ;D
[10:56] <pitti> trulux: I still compile my third grsec attempt
[10:56] <trulux> what's up with it?
[10:56] <pitti> trulux: my previous package does not work really good
[10:56] <trulux> tell me about it
[10:57] <pitti> trulux: I compiled in chroot restrictions, but that gives a lot of errors
[10:57] <pitti> trulux: I think that it clashes with the initrd
[10:57] <pitti> trulux: because the initrd chroots the actual system (I suppose)
[10:57] <pitti> trulux: I get a lot of "linking foo to bar denied" errors
[10:58] <pitti> trulux: and the framebuffer does not work (normal vga works, however)
[10:58] <trulux> umm, have you enabled linking restrictions? fifo restrictions? symlink-hardlink restrictions?
[10:59] <trulux> pitti, tell me the steps to reproduce it
[10:59] <trulux> i would try to test my new skills ;)
[10:59] <pitti> I disabled linking restrictions again in the 2nd attempt, but that did not help
[10:59] <pitti> I still have fifo
[11:00] <pitti> now I completely disabled chroot restrictions for testing
[11:00] <pitti> if that still does not work, I will cry out for help :-)
[11:00] <trulux> ok
[11:00] <pitti> probably I will just drop the initrd, I don't like initrds anyway
[11:00] <trulux> i'm preparing the tissues
[11:00] <trulux> initrd sux
[11:01] <pitti> my very first custom kernel (without initrd) works perfectly
[11:01] <pitti> even with linking restrictions
[11:01] <wasabi> am i the only one who thinks initrd is badass?
[11:01] <pitti> so I suppose the initrd's chrooting makes trouble
[11:01] <tseng> there are issues with the currecnt 2.6.10 pax rcs and smp
[11:01] <pitti> wasabi: no, I don't like it either
[11:01] <crimsun> wasabi: I like them. I used to despise them.
[11:01] <wasabi> bad ass = good
[11:02] <pitti> wasabi: oh, sorry
[11:02] <tseng> just fyi.
[11:02] <trulux> pitti, it's quite possible
[11:02] <pitti> wasabi: what is good about an initrd?
[11:02] <wasabi> I think it's a very elegant way to solve the problem... actually.
[11:02] <pitti> wasabi: which problem?
[11:02] <wasabi> dynamic kernel modules for automatically detected devices.
[11:02] <wasabi> like, my raid card.
[11:02] <trulux> tseng, like openbsd smp ones?
[11:03] <tseng> trulux: ...
[11:03] <trulux> i was kjust joking
[11:03] <trulux> no net-offense
[11:03] <trulux> :D
[11:03] <tseng> tere is a pax bug with kernexec on smp in the 2.6.10 patches, has 0 to do with openbsd or their immature smp support
[11:04] <wasabi> pitti, it allows for the (not yet used apparently) scenario of third party ISV's distributing kernel modules for impoirtant boot devices (raid cards) without recompiling the kernel.
[11:04] <pitti> wasabi: hmm, okay
[11:04] <pitti> wasabi: for me it only loads the relevant root fs driver
[11:04] <wasabi> What if your root fs driver wasn't in Linus' tree
[11:05] <pitti> wasabi: but root fs drivers (including raid) can just be compiled in statically, not?
[11:05] <pitti> wasabi: yes, that's a point
[11:05] <wasabi> Well, that's the scenario I just laid out. WHen you can't compile it in.
[11:05] <wasabi> Like, you know, every other OS in the world.
[11:05] <wasabi> Windows, OS X, etc.
[11:05] <wasabi> We've done pretty well not worrying about that so far though.
[11:08] <wasabi> Anyway, the ISV simply has to package his module up, provide a .deb for it, that rebuilds the initrd.
[11:09] <wasabi> Of course, that's impossible for other reasons. :0  (no stable module interface)
[11:23] <pitti> Hi mdz_!
[11:24] <trulux> hey mdz_
[11:29] <mdz_> good morning
[11:30] <seb128> hello mdz
[11:30] <lifeless> morning y'all
[11:33] <wasabi> i think i found my killer mono app. muhaha.
[11:36] <pitti> lifeless: buhuu! Do you have a minute to help me with a baz problem?
[11:37] <pitti> $ baz commit
[11:37] <pitti> arch_commit: unable to acquire revision lock (internal error in archive-pfs.c(pfs_lock_revision))
[11:37] <pitti> $ baz lock-revision -b pkg-postgresql-private@lists.alioth.debian.org--2005/postgresql--devel--8.0--patch-2
[11:37] <pitti> lock-revision: illegal lock state for pkg-postgresql-private@lists.alioth.debian.org--2005/postgresql--devel--8.0--patch-2
[11:37] <pitti>   consult an admin or arch expert (this shouldn't happen)
[11:37] <lifeless> funky cool.
[11:38] <lifeless> try
[11:38] <pitti> lifeless: there is no ++lock-revision directory in the archive
[11:38] <lifeless> oh, someone was fiddling then.
[11:38] <lifeless> probably someone committed a patch 3 and manually removed it.
[11:38] <pitti> only a directory ++revision-lock-held--patch-2--martin@piware.de--2dade7a66e1cd in the version directory (not in a patch-XX dir)
[11:38] <Keybuk> right, I've had a bottle of nice wine, time to play with dpkg :o)
[11:38] <lifeless> oh, ok thats alright then.
[11:39] <lifeless> still unusual.
[11:39] <Keybuk> wasabi: which?
[11:39] <lifeless> mv  ++revision-lock-held--patch-2--martin@piware.de--2dade7a66e1cd to patch-2/++revision-lock
[11:39] <wasabi> Keybuk, making it.
[11:39] <pitti> lifeless: done; now: arch_commit: unable to acquire revision lock (lock held or revision already committed)
[11:40] <wasabi> Keybuk, an XSP application to partially mirror an apt repository, allowing the admin to approve or disprove specific updates.
[11:40] <pitti> lifeless: again, this ++revision-lock-held--patch2... dir was created again
[11:40] <wasabi> With a pretty interface and stuff.
[11:40] <lifeless> pitti: check the permissions
[11:40] <lifeless> do you have the ability to mkdir patch-3 ?
[11:40] <Keybuk> wasabi: oh right; mine's tomboy
[11:40] <pitti> lifeless: the moved dir in patch-2 was removed entirely
[11:41] <mdz_> mjg59: what is supposed to happen with the clock when restoring from swsusp?
[11:41] <pitti> lifeless: yes
[11:41] <mdz_> on my T42 it seems to be the same as when it went to sleep, and needs to be reset
[11:41] <lifeless> pitti: actually it was renamed into the ++revision-held--...
[11:41] <lifeless> pitti: ok, lets clean this up to be 100% sure.
[11:41] <lifeless> remove the ++revision-lock-held dir tree
[11:41] <pitti> I removed patch-3 again
[11:41] <pitti> done
[11:42] <lifeless> mkdir a ++revision-lock dir under patch-2, mod 755
[11:42] <lifeless> under that, make a +contents dir, mod 755
[11:43] <pitti> done
[11:43] <lifeless> is this local or on alioth ?
[11:43] <pitti> costa :-)
[11:43] <pitti> yes, alioth
[11:43] <lifeless> yah yah.
[11:43] <lifeless> ok, so you have an sftp registration for the archive ...
[11:44] <pitti> yep
[11:44] <lifeless> do you have a revision library? and do you have an arch cache ?
[11:44] <pitti> neither
[11:44] <lifeless> ok.
[11:44] <lifeless> in your working tree, ls {arch}/++pristine-trees
[11:44] <pitti> I just committed into the 7.4 archive, that worked fine, bTW
[11:44] <pitti> this is the 8.0 branch
[11:44] <pitti> martin@donald:~/debian/psql8$ ls \{arch\}/++pristine-trees/
[11:44] <pitti> unlocked
[11:45] <lifeless> ls unlocked
[11:45] <pitti> $ ls \{arch\}/++pristine-trees/unlocked/postgresql/postgresql--devel/postgresql--devel--8.0/pkg-postgresql-private@lists.alioth.debian.org--2005/postgresql--devel--8.0--patch-2/
[11:45] <pitti> {arch}  postgresql8.0-7.9+8.0.0rc2
[11:45] <pitti> (always just one dir below unlocked and further)
[11:46] <lifeless> ok.
[11:46] <lifeless> try the commit again.
[11:47] <pitti> lifeless: worked fine now
[11:47] <pitti> lifeless: now patch-3 exists and has a ++revisoin-lock subdir
[11:48] <pitti> lifeless: so somehow it used the other lock directory method?
[11:48] <lifeless> would love to know how it got wedged
[11:48] <lifeless> there is no other lock directory method..
[11:48] <pitti> I did not touch the repo recently
[11:48] <lifeless> pitti: I believe you.
[11:48] <pitti> and there is no sign that oliver did
[11:49] <pitti> however, I recently moved around some stuff
[11:49] <pitti> well, if I ever encounter it again, I tar it up
[11:49] <lifeless> that would be great.
[11:49] <pitti> cool, thanks
[11:49] <pitti> I will test my new grsec kernel now and go to bed then
[11:50] <pitti> Have a good night everybody!
[11:50] <lifeless> np. have fun
[11:50] <zul> night pitti
[11:54] <trulux> pitti, it's urgent for me to find a good docbook wysiwyg editor, any idea?
[11:54] <pitti> no idea
[11:54] <lifeless> conglomerate
[11:55] <zul> trulux: http://wiki.docbook.org/topic/DocBookAuthoringTools
[11:56] <trulux> zul, thanks
[11:56] <zul> np
[11:59] <trulux> zul, Lyx looks weird on my ubuntu warty
[11:59] <zul> trulux: havent tried it
[12:00] <zul> been fighting to re-install my system all weekend
[12:01] <trulux> :( sounds worst than having weird-looking fonts in Latex docs
[12:01] <trulux> i'm installing a few xft fonts for lyx
[12:02] <zul> yeah gave wife old hard drive bought shiny new hard drive for me