[06:57] <hornbeck> anyone around?
[08:43] <[froud] > African greetinsg
[09:05] <maskie> morning froud from a fellow s-african and all the best for 2005
[09:05] <froud> African greetings
[09:05] <froud> where in RSA are you
[09:06] <maskie> just outside cape town ... northern side
[09:06] <froud> OK, Johannesburg for me, North
[09:07] <maskie> ok
[09:08] <froud> I see you are on uunet
[09:08] <froud> how's thier dsl, any good?
[09:10] <maskie> froud: got no idea since am not using dsl --- currently using isdn ....
[09:11] <froud> Hmmm, your host has been connected for ages. Your phone bill will be huge
[09:13] <maskie> i have this R7 thingy so mostly only am on at home during call-more time --- my monthly bill still lower than adsl 
[09:14] <froud> R7 thing, how does that work?
[09:15] <maskie> max cost of a call during call-more is R7 --- ie from friday 7pm till monday 7am only cost R7 
[09:15] <froud> Oh, so you're connected 24/7 over weekends only
[09:16] <maskie> yes and after 7pm in the week -- not really at home during the day so it suits me at the moment
[09:17] <froud> but the dsl is not that expensive. For business I know my overall cost is +-R1000 including ISP and I took the dsl router over six months
[09:18] <froud> it should be less for personal
[09:20] <maskie> think the dsl384 is around R700 including ISP ... nice thing about ISDN is no cap and no shaping 
[09:21] <froud> he he, yes that is true. But I use 512 and only once have I ever gone over the 3GB cap.
[09:22] <maskie> so i assume you do not download big stuff ... diff between us software guys and you tech writers :)
[09:24] <froud> Not true. I have to do lots of downloading and I have to sync with cvs and svn repo's. I just keep everything updated as much possible so I dont need to do it in one go
[09:25] <froud> mostly I build from working copy of cvs or svn so that helps
[09:25] <maskie>  yes it does ....
[09:25] <froud> If I need a distro, I get a copy from one of the lugs
[09:26] <froud> ok, not quite as much as developers
[09:27] <maskie> am starting to do more and more work from home so will probably get dsl in the next month or so ... can do with the increased speed 
[09:27] <froud> :-) so are you helping with the docs
[09:28] <maskie> not much... just keeping an eye on what you guys are doing ... not much of a writer ....
[09:29] <maskie> might be getting involved in some translation work into afrikaans if there is really a need ...
[09:29] <froud> Good idea
[09:29] <froud> what about all 11 official languages ?
[09:30] <maskie> except english and afrikaans ... the rest might be a bit of a strech
[09:31] <froud> He he :-)
[09:32] <froud> Im new to this project, so I am stil trying to find out how things work.
[09:32] <froud> I've been focused on getting the Docbook application is a stable shape
[09:33] <froud> made a number of repository changes and made documents valid/well-formed
[09:33] <maskie> have been using ubuntu since just after the warty release but have been mostly lurking 
[09:33] <froud> just finishing off a make file
[09:33] <maskie> yes have seen most of them and think you did a great job ...
[09:34] <froud> any ideas for improvements
[09:35] <maskie> not at the moment ... 
[09:35] <froud> Oh well, if you think of something, let me know
[09:36] <maskie> will do ... 
[09:36] <froud> Well, I am off to the Rosebank Flee market today
[09:36] <maskie> yes and i might be off to go watch some cricket .... 
[09:36] <froud> It's a hot, hot morning, I expect it to be an even hotter day
[09:37] <froud> cricket, who is playing
[09:37] <maskie> at least we can go to the beach ... SA vs England at Newlands
[09:37] <froud> well we know who will win that one :-)
[09:37] <froud> Beach, ouch
[09:38] <froud> I grew up in Durbs
[09:38] <froud> One thing I miss is the beach
[09:38] <maskie> that is why i love cpt ... beach and the mountain
[09:38] <froud> you just found my soft spot :-) 
[09:38] <froud> I have never been to CT
[09:39] <froud> I left ZA about 15 years ago and only been back just over a year
[09:39] <froud> I have yet to visit
[09:39] <maskie> oh no .... great place to visit and even better place to stay ....
[09:39] <froud> they say feb/Mar is a good time of the year
[09:40] <froud> so I plan a trip this year Mar
[09:40] <froud> but to windy
[09:40] <maskie> yes it is ... then all the holiday visitors ha sgone back ....
[09:40] <froud> and you capies are like heeeeey duuuuuuude, chiilllll
[09:40] <maskie> you get used to the wind ... march should not be that bad
[09:41] <froud> hope not
[09:41] <maskie> some of us yes .... not all
[09:41] <froud> an us vallies are like "I can like to love you stukkent"
[09:42] <froud> well b c'ing ya
[09:42] <maskie> he he :)
[09:42] <maskie> c ya
[07:33] <sivang> hey people
[07:38] <abelli> ciao
[07:39] <ChrisH> chow
[08:50] <froud> Who should actually hold copyright over the documentation?
[09:14] <sivang> froud: the ubuntu documentation project
[09:14] <sivang> Hi again people.
[09:15] <froud> hi you're still marked away
[09:15] <sivang> check again
[09:15] <sivang> I just removed the mark
[09:15] <froud> you sure, should it be UDP or Canonical?
[09:15] <sivang> UDP
[09:15] <sivang> IMHO,
[09:15] <froud> OK
[09:16] <sivang> maybe we should ask jdub
[09:16] <sivang> lemme check
[09:25] <sivang> well , no answer yet.
[09:25] <sivang> maybe we _should_ appoint canonical with the copyright as they would be able to go to court when someone violates the licsense..
[09:25] <sivang> oppinion people?
[09:26] <froud> yes, hence my questions?
[09:27] <froud> at present it is assigned to ChrisH and Nick
[09:27] <froud> not good IMHO
[09:28] <froud> for the reasons you mentioned
[09:28] <ChrisH> Is it a problem of the copyright or the license? I thought the copyright holders are the writers themselves?
[09:29] <froud> In this case the writers do not have a single legal body
[09:29] <froud> when I work on commercial work for a publisher
[09:29] <ChrisH> Hmmm.
[09:30] <froud> and it is in a team
[09:30] <froud> the team gives the publisher copyright
[09:30] <froud> the rights return to the writers after X years
[09:30] <froud> normally when the work is OOP
[09:31] <ChrisH> But is Canonical the publisher? I understand that they could fight at court. But IMHO canonical is still the sponsor - not the boss.
[09:31] <froud> Unless the writers ban together and create a company, it becomes very difficult for them to enforce their copyright
[09:32] <froud> As I see it Canonical is the holding company
[09:32] <ChrisH> Hmmm.
[09:33] <froud> ubuntu is a project of the holding company
[09:34] <ChrisH> Ubuntu is a community project. Isn't it?
[09:34] <froud> Dunno what we will do here. At SuSE I now use Novell Inc.
[09:34] <froud> Is it?
[09:34] <froud> really?
[09:34] <ChrisH> Sponsorship by Canonical
[09:34] <ChrisH> The Ubuntu Project is a community project with participation from many volunteers, sponsored by Canonical Ltd.
[09:34] <ChrisH> (from the main page)
[09:36] <ChrisH> The situation of some people getting money where others are working voluntarily is complicated enough. I don't assume many people would work for Ubuntu if it wouldn't be a 99% community thing.
[09:36] <froud> how far does the sponsorship stretch
[09:37] <ChrisH> Philosophical question. :) Marketing, printing CDs, getting money back for support contracts.
[09:37] <froud> ChrisH, we have different views of how OSS works :-)
[09:37] <froud> yeah
[09:37] <froud> OK ChrisH r you prepared to back the copyright?
[09:38] <froud> Is Nick
[09:38] <froud> or anyone on the team?
[09:38] <ChrisH> IMHO Canonical is already far too much involved to have ubuntu really be a community project. Still its community is much better than Debian's. Although the principles in Debian are easier.
[09:38] <froud> agreed
[09:39] <froud> If I put the UDP.... who is the UDP?
[09:40] <froud> can a copyright be attributed to a community of loosely connected individuals?
[09:40] <froud> who aaare those individuals?
[09:41] <froud> can anyone just come along and say ... hey, what the hell I will under write the copyright?
[09:41] <froud> If so then I will have one of my companies do it
[09:42] <froud> Since I am in contribution, I have copyright. As do each of the contributors
[09:44] <froud> Hence the importance of the license. Which I dont think people actually have a clue about.
[09:45] <froud> The arguments for a hybrid are pretty flimsy if you ask me
[09:46] <froud> who is legal council here
[09:48] <ChrisH> What's that gonna mean?
[10:13] <hornbeck> froud: what does,  Let me know when you people r serious, mean?
[10:15] <ChrisH> hornbeck: froud has stormed out
[10:15] <hornbeck> I am really tired of the in fighting
[10:15] <hornbeck> :-)
[10:20] <hornbeck> has any real work been done on docs?
[10:20] <hornbeck> I am just curious?
[10:21] <ChrisH> I'm working on the sysadmin stuff currently. But very little seems to be done currently.
[10:21] <hornbeck> thats what I thought
[10:21] <hornbeck> man I just don't have time
[10:22] <hornbeck> well keep up with the work your doing ChrisH, its very needed
[10:22] <ChrisH> Thanks. :)
[10:22] <hornbeck> yeah, I just wish I could do more
[10:22] <ChrisH> I've started to ignore most of the chat here, all the politic talks, all the flooding on the mailing list. We seem to be talking the whole project to death.
[10:23] <hornbeck> yeah
[10:23] <hornbeck> the time I do have it seems to be used listening to arguments
[10:23] <ChrisH> And although I really value what froud it doing technically he's just the dozenth details that kept everyone from writing.
[10:23] <hornbeck> I wrote some the other day but that was the first in awhile
[10:24] <hornbeck> you have kids right?
[10:24] <ChrisH> Yes, Sir.
[10:24] <hornbeck> you work full time?
[10:25] <hornbeck> do you go to school at all?
[10:25] <hornbeck> I work 40-50, have two kids/wife, and go to school full time
[10:25] <hornbeck> when I started with Ubuntu I did not work full time or go to school
[10:25] <hornbeck> all the sudden I have no time for dosc
[10:25] <hornbeck> docs
[10:25] <ChrisH> Nah, I've a job as a security admin guy at an online store.
[10:26] <hornbeck> I am a sysadmin for a computer firm
[10:26] <hornbeck> we have over 200 clients that we administer