[12:06] <plovs> anybody awake?
[12:06] <froud> yes
[12:07] <plovs> saw your mails, replied as well
[12:07] <froud> thanks
[06:46] <plovs> morning all
[07:52] <froud> African greetings all
[08:29] <plovs> froud: do you know how to connect to svn through proxy with passord?
[08:30] <froud> plovs, I have some idea, but it depends on the proxy, firewall etc.
[08:34] <plovs> squid, 80 blocked at firewall level
[08:34] <plovs> need to go out through proxy
[08:40] <plovs> froud: what kind of an outline did you have in mind?
[08:40] <froud> plovs, you mean for admin
[08:41] <plovs> yes
[08:42] <froud> I am hacking a rough outline for admin guide and will commit soon. This will give us a starting point so we can all collaborate
[08:43] <plovs> ok
[08:49] <froud> Does Ubuntu Server support POSIX ACLs
[08:51] <froud> I kno wthat std's POSIX 1003.1e and 1003.2c were withdrawn but some distros still support them
[08:54] <plovs> grep POSIX_ACL=y /boot/config-`uname -r` will say yes
[08:54] <plovs> i asked it on devel
[08:54] <froud> OK thanks
[08:54] <plovs> for ext2/3/jfs and xfs
[09:09] <plovs> hi enrico
[09:17] <plovs> enrico: heard anything from corey? i hope he did at least something after all the noise
[09:29] <enrico> plovs: the last conversation we had is in the channel: he said he won't be able to work on it, I asked to at least commit or send me his last work, so that it won't be lost
[09:29] <enrico> I'm waiting for a reply to that, but maybe it'll come tomorrow
[09:30] <enrico> I'm finally home with a couple of hours of time
[09:30] <enrico> tons of things to do.  Gotta get things moving
[09:31] <enrico> Is there any breakthrough in the last 2 days of IRC about the Quick Guide and the About Ubuntu document?  Else I can get those moving before doing the IRC report
[09:34] <enrico> froud: around?
[09:34] <froud> yep
[09:35] <enrico> froud: hi!
[09:35] <froud> how r u
[09:35] <enrico> froud: I've been talking with mako about the screenshots, and I'm about to tidy up my IRC log with him and put it up on the wiki.  After I do it (say, in 10 minutes) would you like to have a look?
[09:35] <froud> sure
[09:35] <enrico> froud: I'm great!  Sunny day here, just had a pearl milk tea :)
[09:36] <froud> I stated a section on this in my wiki pages, got as far as TBD :-)
[09:36] <froud> 30 deg in Johannesburg today
[09:36] <froud> same as yesterday
[09:36] <froud> to darn hot
[09:37] <enrico> (Pearl milk tea: http://www.gio.gov.tw/taiwan-website/av/ophoto/photo/b_img/b1_43.jpg  and  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boba_milk_tea)
[09:38] <enrico> (although here it's not called "boba" in any way, but the local name sounds more like "zen zoo")
[09:39] <plovs> enrico: looking forward to your write-up and the quickguide is completely stalled here, so it would be nice to get that into gear
[09:41] <enrico> plovs: in the meantime, can you locate a version of the About Ubuntu page in hoary and commit it in a new directory in the repository?
[09:48] <plovs> enrico: i don't have hoary yet
[09:48] <enrico> froud: I added a "Including screenshots" section in https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/QuickGuide
[09:49] <enrico> froud: please take a look and tell me what you think.  I feel strange about that "python script" part, but the rest seems senseful to me
[09:49] <enrico> plovs: ok.  I'll hammer the devel channel a bit more
[09:52] <froud> enrico, 
[09:52] <froud> may I suggest that people do not need so many screen shots, especially when they are using an online help system
[09:53] <froud> I would limit screenshots to only when required
[09:53] <froud> for example
[09:53] <froud> to show the state of a screen while interating with it
[09:54] <enrico> froud: if I understood correctly, this is mainly targeted as a pocket book, with one or two pages per major application.  It would make sense, in this optics, to have at least one screenshot per featured application
[09:54] <froud> so it will be in print
[09:55] <froud> not electronic
[09:56] <plovs> will we continue using the basic layout of the quickguide as we have it now?
[09:56] <plovs> eg, follow the menu layout
[09:56] <plovs> or will we make it task based etc what do you guys think?
[09:58] <enrico> I understand the idea is making it application-based, like a guided tour of the distro
[09:58] <enrico> In this case, follow the meny layout makes  sense
[10:01] <froud> enrico, so limit each section to a capture of the main screen
[10:03] <froud> enrico, there are some more things to add about screen capts
[10:03] <froud> use a common theme across all
[10:04] <froud> something that uses a color palette that is B/W printer freindly 
[10:04] <enrico> I'd say that using the default theme makes lots of sense
[10:04] <enrico> I also hope that the default theme can be B/W friendly
[10:05] <froud> capture at 72 dpi
[10:05] <enrico> And limiting each section to a capture of the main screen, yes, I think so, although in some cases there may be some big relevant part
[10:05] <enrico> froud: 72, how come not 100?
[10:06] <froud> 72 is good for online raters
[10:06] <froud> rasters
[10:06] <froud> never resize screen capts
[10:07] <froud> decide to use GIF or PNG
[10:07] <froud> for print
[10:07] <froud> we need tif at higher resolution
[10:08] <enrico> PNG
[10:08] <froud> OK
[10:08] <enrico> How do we get a higher resolution TIF easily?
[10:09] <froud> we need common and constant convention of terms when referecing gui components
[10:09] <froud> enrico, no its a seperate capture
[10:10] <froud> we can use profiling
[10:10] <froud> but yelp does not like it
[10:11] <froud> or does not know what to do with it
[10:11] <enrico> I don't know what is profiling
[10:11] <enrico> But then, I'm not a professional writer, and it makes sense that I don't knwo it :)
[10:11] <froud> so I suggest we transform our profiled documents to another Docbook XML file that way everyting is resolved and only information for that book is loaded so yelp will be quick
[10:12] <froud> enrico, thats ok
[10:12] <froud> example
[10:12] <froud> let s say you want to have a book in print and html formats
[10:13] <froud> you can mark tags with the condition attribute
[10:13] <froud> <phrase condition="html">Go Home</phrase>
[10:13] <froud> <phrase condition="html,pdf">Go Home</phrase>
[10:14] <froud> <phrase condition="pdf">Go Home</phrase>
[10:14] <froud> three conditions
[10:14] <froud> depending on the value of condition the output will or wont be output to the result tree
[10:15] <froud> The downside in our senario is that we will need to do preprocessing
[10:15] <froud> yelp does not like conditions
[10:15] <froud> well yelp does not like many tings
[10:15] <froud> index
[10:15] <froud> glossary
[10:15] <froud> bilio
[10:15] <froud> and more
[10:16] <froud> but yelp has many good things
[10:22] <enrico> Couldn't yelp just ignore all the things it doesn't like?
[10:23] <enrico> Or anyway, we can easily put up an XSL that throws away all things that yelp doesn't know
[10:25] <froud> enrico, why have presentational formats in the repos?
[10:26] <froud> the src should be presentation neutral
[10:26] <froud> we generate presentation formats
[10:27] <enrico> froud: that's the current version, that needs to be converted in DocBook :)
[10:28] <enrico> I'm still going through other things atm (like updating the wiki status pages QuickGuide and AboutUbuntuPage, then I'll be on the IRC report.  If someone has free time to do a conversion and then throw away the .css files, please go on!
[10:30] <plovs> enrico: sorry convert what? aboutubuntu?
[10:30] <enrico> plovs: aboutubuntu, yes
[10:30] <plovs> i'll do it
[10:31] <plovs> or i'll start, mess up the formatting and ask froud to clean up the mess :-)
[10:31] <froud> enrico, its better to point to it so we know it has to be done.
[10:32] <froud> its a rough idea, I am sure with all our brains we will improve it
[10:32] <enrico> Scenario:
[10:32] <enrico> Updating the QuickGuide page with a cheat sheet of commands to check it out, make it, test it with yelp and so on
[10:33] <enrico> Write a "firefox build/quickguide/index.html" line in the page
[10:33] <enrico> go into a terminal, try it out to see if it's ok
[10:33] <enrico> firefox opens the page on top of the Quick Guide editing one
[10:33] <enrico> I click back, the form is reset, I lose all changes
[10:33] <enrico> BAH!
[10:34] <froud> enrico, rather than commit presentational formats can we revert to your other method of placing comment in the xml src
[10:36] <enrico> froud: you mean, you prefer a docbook file which is 100% comments with the HTML in it?
[10:36] <plovs> froud: nice layout
[10:37] <plovs> enrico: how can we put stuff fro docbook source on the ubuntulinux site? i would like to get feedback on faqguide
[10:38] <froud> enrico, better to have link to wiki but if you must copy then just to a copy of the page by draging the pppppppointer down the page selecting it and doing ctrl+c and ctrl+v, then comment that
[10:38] <enrico> plovs: that has still to be discovered by me.  I can embark on the quest, though
[10:38] <froud> plovs, thanks
[10:38] <enrico> plovs: that's not a wiki page: that's the page that is shipped in the ubuntu-artwork package
[10:38] <froud> plovs, enrico , we can transform to HTML and have link to it
[10:39] <plovs> enrico: ubuntu-artwork package???
[10:39] <froud> enrico, I did a commit on about ubuntu just a few days ago
[10:39] <plovs> froud: the html leaves something to be desired still though
[10:40] <froud> plovs, ChrisH has a bugzilla to enhance it
[10:40] <plovs> froud: ok
[10:40] <enrico> froud: [publishing html]  the problem is not converting and linking it, the problem (to me atm) is knowing where to upload it
[10:40] <plovs> why don't we put aboutubuntu.xml in the common folder?
[10:40] <enrico> plovs: yes
[10:40] <froud> surely that should be simple to resolve
[10:41] <froud> plovs, hold on that one
[10:41] <enrico> plovs: I took it from the ubuntu-artwork package sources and I committed it into the wiki
[10:41] <enrico> froud: [commit on about ubuntu]  sorry, I think I lost that one.  What did you commit?
[10:41] <plovs> enrico: ok, got you
[10:42] <froud> see trunk/userguide/about/chap-ubuntu.xml
[10:42] <enrico> plovs: I still don't know how can we give it back into that package, though
[10:42] <froud> Its rough
[10:43] <froud> but if you want to copy paste the text there and comment it I will update and smeld it with the last work I did
[10:43] <froud> plovs, about having aboutubunt as a common object
[10:44] <enrico> froud: it may be that we're talking about two different things.  The "About Ubuntu Page" is described here: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/AboutUbuntuPage  have a look
[10:44] <enrico> froud: the text I've committed is what is currently displayed while clicking on "About Ubuntu" in Ubuntu, not a chapter of a book
[10:47] <froud> ok parts of this will be in the book
[10:47] <froud> we need to integrate it and create a method by which to generate it
[10:47] <froud> this will mean a mark target
[10:48] <froud> essentially I envision just assembling pieces from the books to compile it
[10:48] <enrico> sorry, what is a "mark target" ?
[10:48] <froud> make target
[10:48] <enrico> oh, yes, ok, I'm with you
[10:49] <froud> we will still need a driver file
[10:49] <enrico> it would be really neat to assemble it from other things.  Also, I would avoid having too many ubuntu descriptions around :)
[10:49] <froud> yes there are already to many
[10:49] <froud> in addition, we need to consider a balance in the description between desktop and server
[10:50] <enrico> oh, desktop and server could definitely share the same about ubuntu part
[10:50] <ChrisH> Wow... the mailing list is busier than ubuntu-devel@ :)
[10:50] <froud> hello ChrisH 
[10:51] <ChrisH> froud: Morning. :)
[10:51] <plovs> ChrisH: we know how much you insist on writing all inportant decisions on the mailing-list, so ... especially for you
[10:52] <ChrisH> plovs: Yeah, very friendly. :) Someone please give me a secretary that keeps track of the list and sums it up. :)
[10:52] <ChrisH> enrico: you should write a mailing list summary... :P
[10:52] <enrico> ChrisH: gosh! :)
[10:53] <froud> plovs, enrico, I will take a look at the about ubuntu thing
[10:53] <plovs> enrico: and a summery-summery
[10:54] <froud> Umm is anyone doing bugzilla's for all this
[10:54] <plovs> froud: we try to resolve it before it reaches that stage
[10:57] <froud> plovs,  there is so much to do that we all can forget
[10:57] <froud> put it in the bugz and then it cant be forgotten
[10:58] <froud> I will move the content from aboutubuntu and find a way that we can auto generate this page
[10:59] <enrico> froud: that is cool!
[10:59] <froud> the css files wil move to libs/
[11:00] <enrico> froud: I'd like to make a TakingScreenshots page for the docteam.  You mentioned you started something similar in your wiki page: do you have a link?
[11:00] <froud> the png will mov to images/
[11:00] <enrico> I could integrate that and what you told me before
[11:00] <froud> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/AboutTheUbuntuCoreDocumentationProject
[11:01] <froud> got as far as TBD
[11:01] <enrico> Ah, ok.  I was looking for a SeanWheller page but I couldn't find it
[11:02] <enrico> Ok, found.  That'll be easy to integrate :)
[11:02] <froud> I have not created a bugz for this. Should I
[11:02] <enrico> I can do it
[11:02] <froud> ok
[11:03] <enrico> froud: do you prefer me to add the part about screenshots in the big AboutTheUbuntuCoreDocumentationProject or in a separate TakingScreenshots page?  I'd prefer the second one, so that it's easy to link to that specific piece of knowledge from many parts of the wiki
[11:06] <froud> enrico, I was trying to consolidate this information for now. Once we have a stable outlook then we can split
[11:06] <froud> my logic was to work in one place
[11:07] <froud> Although I do have the Interchange Protocol in a sperate page as it was to big
[11:07] <froud> my rule of tumb was small peices in /AboutTheUbuntuCoreDocumentationProject
[11:15] <froud> I must go back to paid work c ya later
[11:19] <enrico> froud: ok, so I'll put everything in that page for now
[11:26] <enrico> froud: added to bugzilla: Bug 5244
[11:27] <enrico> AboutTheUbuntuCoreDocumentationProject starts being quite long already
[11:27] <froud> :-( yes I know
[11:28] <froud> but we need to better arrnage the documentation area on wiki before we split it
[11:31] <enrico> Talk with the gardener :)
[11:31] <enrico> How can I help you reorganizing the documentation area?
[11:33] <enrico> froud: about the screenshots, you say for print we need TIFF at higher resolutions.  Which resolution you mean?  Can the 300DPI as the standard for color printing?  And how do we capture screenshots at that resolution?
[11:42] <froud> enrico, point 1 will post a proposal to th elist :-)
[11:44] <enrico> froud: proposal, about what?
[11:44] <enrico> froud: Added the screenshots part to the AboutTheUbuntuCoreDocumentationProject
[11:44] <froud> "How can I help you reorganizing the documentation area"
[11:45] <froud> I will submit an outline and structure for the framework
[11:45] <enrico> Oh, ok.  Sure, do it.
[11:45] <enrico> froud: you can have a look at AboutTheUbuntuCoreDocumentationProject's part about screenshots now if you want
[11:46] <froud> Ok I will need to make explanation about higher resolutions and TIFF
[11:46] <froud> I must go back to paid work.
[11:46] <enrico> And how to take screenshots at resolutions different than the one currently used by X
[11:47] <enrico> sure.  That's in bugzilla, I'll add a note 
[11:47] <enrico> can I assign it to you?
[11:52] <enrico> plovs: still around?  Would you like to make a page similar to the QuickGuide page but about the FAQGuide, and possibly also an entry on the FAQ Guide in the DocumentationTeamFAQ?
[11:55] <froud> yes assign it to me
[11:55] <froud> I suggest we have links to from these Doc Spec pages to the HTML versions
[12:02] <plovs> enrico: let me see ...
[12:04] <froud> lunch
[12:13] <plovs> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FAQGuide [done] 
[12:16] <plovs> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamFAQ [done] 
[12:27] <froud> plovs, I love the Status part
[12:29] <froud> plovs in chap-installremove.xml you added a warning

[12:29] <froud>         <para> I do not have hoary yet so I can not really write a description of the new package
[12:29] <froud>             installer, this is just a draft. </para>
[12:29] <froud>     </warning>
[12:30] <froud> may I suggest it is better to put these types of things into comments like this, so we can find them easily
[12:30] <froud> <!-- FIX ME:  I do not have hoary yet so I can not really write a description of the new package installer, this is just a draft. -->
[12:31] <froud> oh and add your name
[12:32] <froud> <!-- FIX ME:  Alexander: I do not have hoary yet so I can not really write a description of the new package installer, this is just a draft. -->
[12:33] <froud> That way you can find all <!-- FIX ME: or Just <!-- FIX ME: Alexander:
[12:33] <froud> If we put these things in xml they are boun dto be missed and inlcuded in the distribution
[12:36] <plovs> froud: agree, will do next time
[12:36] <plovs> i make many mistakes, but most of them only once :-)
[12:36] <plovs> froud: i'll put the status also  in bugzilla
[12:37] <froud> Ok I have done it for you.
[12:38] <froud> plovs, mistakes are good, the fater you make them the faster you learn
[12:38] <froud> faster
[12:38] <plovs> froud: :-)
[12:39] <plovs> how do i add components to documentation in bugzilla?
[12:39] <froud> you have an account
[12:39] <plovs> yes
[12:39] <froud> just add a new bug to the documentation category
[12:39] <froud> assign yourself
[12:39] <froud> or who ever
[12:40] <plovs> on the right of the page it says package, at the moment only general, we should have our four guides there
[12:40] <froud> Umm erico was working on that
[12:40] <froud> enrico, 
[12:41] <froud> at present we dont have a component list
[12:41] <froud> just flat tree
[12:41] <froud> :-)
[12:41] <froud> right back to work
[12:43] <plovs> froud: thanks, we can fix it later when we have more bugs
[12:46] <enrico> back
[12:48] <enrico> Eh.  To add components you should send a mail to jdub asking for it.  I did various days ago, requesting a component for the installation manual maintained by Colin, but I got no answer
[12:48] <enrico> I can ping again
[12:51] <enrico> froud: reassinged the screenshot bug to you.  I'm setting the priority to P1, as screenshots are probably the major thing in the Quick Guide (that is, every section probably starts with an example screenshot of the application and moves from there, so not knowing how to make screenshot is quite a blocker there
[12:51] <enrico> If we can come up with a list of components that we would need, I can send a big batch in a single mail
[12:55] <froud> enrico, components include each document User Guide, FAQ Guide, Quick Guide, Installation Guide, Admin Guide
[12:55] <froud> technically we dont have an installation guide in the repos
[12:56] <froud> but I think Kamion? need it
[12:56] <enrico> Yes, because we can't maintain it as it's now maintained in debian plus patches maintained by Kamion, and we really don't want to mess with that, but we do want to send patches and bugs to Kamion
[12:57] <froud> yes
[12:57] <froud> upstream is larger and faster
[12:57] <enrico> Sending a(nother) mail to jdub
[01:04] <froud> enrico, I have remove dthe folder aboutubuntu/ the content is temp in userguide/about/chap-ubuntu.xml will fix it soon and close bug https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5243
[01:05] <enrico> froud: cool!  In the meantime, I got jdub on ICQ
[01:06] <enrico> Sent him new list of packages for bugzilla and request for wishes for the about page, and asked him to read my mail :)
[01:12] <enrico> plovs: cool the FAQGuide descriptions!
[01:12] <enrico> plovs: I mean, the FAQGuide descriptions are cool! :)
[01:13] <enrico> going out
[02:21] <sivang> hi all
[02:22] <sivang> msg silbs Hi Jan :-)
[02:23] <ChrisH> msg sivang hi... ;)
[02:23] <ChrisH> sivang: Who is silbs? ;)
[02:24] <Kinnison> silbs is Jane Silber. Canonical's uberfantastic organiser amongst her many talents
[02:24] <sivang> Kinnison: hehe :-) Hi Kinnison !
[02:24] <ChrisH> Just teasing Sivan. :)
[02:28] <Kinnison>  
[02:28] <sivang> Kinnison:    
[02:31] <Kinnison> ChrisH: Sorry; should I refrain from hebrew on-channel?
[02:31] <ChrisH> Kinnison: No problem. :) I'm not fast enough to follow froud... so two lines of what I couldn't even understand are very relaxing. ;)
[02:32] <Kinnison> ChrisH: hehe
[02:32] <ChrisH> I merely wonder how you type that...
[02:33] <Kinnison> Hebrew keyboard layout ;-)
[02:33] <plovs> hi all
[02:33] <ChrisH> There are probably more hebrew characters than latin ones.
[02:33] <ChrisH> plovs: Hi! :)
[02:34] <plovs> ChrisH: there are actually less hebrew characters then 26, 22 if i remember correct (correct sivang?)
[02:35] <ChrisH> As long as you don't ask me to write hebrew documentation...
[02:35] <plovs> well now that you mention it...
[02:36] <plovs> how hard is it to create a debian package?
[02:37] <plovs> it would be nice to package faqguide
[02:39] <ChrisH> plovs: It's an art and takes a moment to do it right. :) But it's not magical.
[02:39] <ChrisH> plovs: I could as a Debian Developer to do that. ;)
[02:39] <ChrisH> s/as/ask/
[02:40] <ChrisH> plovs: Seriously... I can create the debian/ structure if you want.
[02:40] <plovs> ChrisH: if you could, then i can maintain it, just the initial start, i looked at the debian new maintainer doc and it is too much reading for now
[02:41] <plovs> i want to learn it one day but not today
[02:41] <ChrisH> plovs: And it's outdated and incomplete, too. :(
[02:41] <ChrisH> plovs: Is there a Makefile already? I don't see one.
[02:42] <plovs> ChrisH: would be nice to have a small doc about it, maybe you can copy your bash_history about what you did and i can do a write-up?
[02:42] <ChrisH> plovs: For this special case?
[02:42] <plovs> ChrisH: for a basic debian package
[02:42] <ChrisH> plovs: Sounds like rewriting the NM guide.
[02:43] <ChrisH> plovs: In fact I have that on my to do list already to write a more complete tutorial on doing single and multiple binary packages because information about that is distributed throughout the web.
[02:43] <plovs> that guide is long and thorough, i would like something like the faq: 1,2,3
[02:43] <plovs> ChrisH: would be great
[02:44] <ChrisH> plovs: What schedule do you think of? My guide will surely not be done before the end of January.
[02:44] <plovs> yesterday?
[02:44] <plovs> no?
[02:44] <plovs> ok
[02:44] <ChrisH> plovs: :)
[02:44] <ChrisH> plovs: Perhaps I start with a template and we maintain it together until the tutorial is done, okay?
[02:45] <plovs> but seriously, it would be great, but for now, if you could package it and send me the history, for me that would be enough
[02:45] <ChrisH> plovs: sure
[02:45] <plovs> ChrisH: that would be great
[02:45] <plovs> that meaning: Perhaps I start with a template and we maintain it together until the tutorial is done, okay?
[02:45] <plovs> :-)
[02:46] <ChrisH> One thing that would help... we should split the Makefile. I need an own Makefile in the traunk/faqguide/Makefile location. We should consider that.
[02:47] <sivang> plovs: in need of packaging? 
[02:47] <sivang> :)
[02:47] <sivang> what is your due date? :)
[02:48] <ChrisH> Although... I could use the main Makefile and make it a multiple source package. Okay, that'll do it.
[02:49] <ChrisH> plovs: Where shall the files be after installation? scrollkeeper? /usr/share/doc/faqguide/html?
[03:16] <sivang> ChrisH: try to register them against the desktop secion in scrollkeeper. :)
[03:17] <ChrisH> sivang: Did you figure out what is there to do to "register" it?
[03:17] <sivang> ChrisH: sort of,
[03:17] <sivang> you create an OMF file describing your file,
[03:17] <sivang> and run dh_scrollkeepr in your rules file,
[03:17] <sivang> then it tries to register it.
[03:18] <ChrisH> I assume the package would need to put the XML files somewhere, install an OMF file and run the scrollkeeper reindexing?
[03:19] <sivang> ChrisH: you need to copy the xml file to the xml files "repo" of scrollkeepr, which is nothing more then a directiry structure in /var/share or /usr/share/scrollkeeper something.
[03:19] <sivang> shame I didn't take notes from when I managed to install the handbook on my private test of yelp...[hides] 
[03:20] <ChrisH> sivang: Are you actively working on the debian/ stuff?
[03:20] <sivang> ChrisH: why? Not touched it in a while..
[03:20] <ChrisH> sivang: Because that's what plovs asked for. And before screwing your work I though I'd better ask. :)
[03:21] <sivang> ChrisH: postinst you should have a call to scrollkeepr_update or somethig like that,
[03:21] <sivang> ChrisH: please copy the current fiels and move some other place before chanign, so I will know where I Started :)
[03:25] <ChrisH> sivang: yes, sir
[03:38] <froud> sivang, Kinnison, shalom gevre
[03:39] <froud> sivang, you got the scrollkeep stuff sorted?
[03:39] <froud> I have a bugzilla against my name for this, can I assign it to you?
[03:41] <froud> sivang, if you want a working example of how scrollkeeper works there is one in the GNOME CVS
[03:42] <sivang> froud,ChrisH there is also a very good one when doing apt-get source doc-base
[03:43] <froud> ok, so you have it covered. Can I assign the bugz to you
[03:43] <froud> ChrisH, if you want to split the make then please do so, but see the scrollkeeper stuff for ideas
[03:44] <froud> sivang, I understand you will make a seperate OMF for each doc
[03:44] <froud> and so a seperate series ID
[03:45] <sivang> froud: you need to from what I understood.
[03:45] <froud> or do you propose a single OMF
[03:45] <froud> no you can do a single OMF
[03:45] <froud> just add multiple resources
[03:46] <froud> but if ChrisH needs to have seperate makefiles then its makes sense to do seperate OMFs
[03:49] <ChrisH> froud: It's merely a matter of whether every trunk subdirectory (aka "project") is going to become a .deb package or not
[03:49] <ChrisH> froud: If everything is packaged then we can keep the Makefile where it is.
[03:50] <ChrisH> froud: After all scrollkeeper/yelp will probably only need the XML files anyway.
[03:55] <froud> ChrisH, yes. I was not about to get information about the packaging intentions. I assume they will all be packaged in the dist and therefore did not see a need to have multiple make files and OMFs.
[03:55] <froud> Is this correct
[03:55] <sivang> froud: from what I've seen in GNOME usually there are seperate OMFs
[03:56] <sivang> ChrisH: true
[03:56] <froud> sivang, yes each application has its own OMF
[03:56] <sivang> ChrisH: it only cares about the xml files to be where it expects it when you run "scrollkeeper_update"
[03:56] <froud> However a the specification does provide for a single OMF
[03:56] <sivang> froud: let's have seperate ones.
[03:57] <froud> accroding to the DTD resource can be one or more
[03:57] <sivang> froud: yes, but I Want us to have seperate ones as GNOME does.
[03:57] <froud> why
[03:57] <froud> we are creating a series
[03:57] <sivang> froud: would be more easy to take only parts of them and use in seperate places.
[03:58] <froud> I am not so sure about that
[03:58] <sivang> froud: trust me.
[03:58] <froud> hey you go for it
[03:58] <sivang> froud: We want to follow GNOME guidelines also
[03:58] <sivang> :)
[03:58] <sivang> treat each resepctful doc, as an app :)
[03:58] <froud> The guidelines are not set by GNOME
[03:59] <sivang> suppose a derivative wants to use only 1 work from us, they have a sperate omf they can already use,
[03:59] <froud> they are set by the scrollkeeper project at SF
[03:59] <sivang> better, the intelligent package manager or launchpad infrast. would be able to automatically create speerate packages.
[03:59] <froud> OK do speak to plov he is implimenting ghelp:app-name calls inthe docs
[04:01] <froud> which means if downstream creates a package and does not inlcude the other packages, the links are broken
[04:02] <froud> ChrisH, if sivand does seperate OMFs will you break the makefile and also create a main make in root
[04:03] <froud> sivang, BTW if follow GNOME are you thinking we need the english version of docs in C/
[04:03] <ChrisH> froud: I think I won't even need the Makefiles.
[04:03] <ChrisH> froud: After all we just need the XML for scrollkeeper, right?
[04:04] <froud> I am concerned about making things to GNOME specific and when KDE comes we will be in a corner
[04:04] <froud> ChrisH, no we will need them
[04:04] <froud> The make files will need to autocreate certain files
[04:04] <ChrisH> froud: But probably not for a debian package. Or do you think there should be precompiled HTML files somewhere like in /usr/share/doc/faqguide?
[04:05] <froud> ChrisH, both methods have ='s and -'s
[04:05] <froud> Yelp is nice,  but limited
[04:05] <ChrisH> I wouldn't mind having both formats in the package.
[04:05] <froud> Static means we need to process
[04:06] <froud> Problem is when we reach KDE
[04:06] <froud> KDE does not use scrollkeeper or yelp
[04:06] <froud> I would like, if possible, to avoid to much lockin to KDE
[04:06] <ChrisH> froud: do you know which files scrollkeeper would need?
[04:07] <froud> ChrisH, I suggest reading http://scrollkeeper.sourceforge.net/documentation/writing_scrollkeeper_omf_files/index.html
[04:08] <ChrisH> froud: oki doki
[04:08] <froud> The do a checkout of :pserver:anonymous@anoncvs.gnome.org:/cvs/gnome/gnome-docu
[04:09] <ChrisH> froud: so the OMFs are the control files for scrollkeeper... I see.
[04:09] <froud> yes
[04:09] <froud> the problem I have is what category to use
[04:09] <ChrisH> froud: do we have them already?
[04:09] <froud> there is no category for ubuntu
[04:09] <froud> we have never had one
[04:10] <ChrisH> is there no "private" section? :)
[04:11] <froud> see file:/usr/share/scrollkeeper/Templates/C/
[04:11] <froud> there is the controlled list
[04:12] <ChrisH> How has it been done before? After all we have a "help" function already.
[04:12] <froud> as I see it we should be in General|GeneralLinux|GeneralLinuxDistributionsUbuntu
[04:13] <froud> dunno I asked on devel, but did not get much joy
[04:13] <froud> perhaps you know where to ask
[04:13] <ChrisH> Nope.
[04:13] <froud> sivang, what about you
[04:14] <froud> oh he's away
[04:14] <ChrisH> Can't we provide our own scrollkeeper stuff if we don't provide OMFs? After all there has been a way before.
[04:14] <froud> No 
[04:15] <froud> I think people just called yelp filename.xml
[04:15] <froud> to work well integration to scrollkeeper is good
[04:15] <froud> for example, plovs wants to link between FAQ and User Guide
[04:16] <froud> to do this he needs to use ghelp:userguide from faq
[04:17] <froud> anyway I will leave it with you guys if you and sivang want it. But then I want to reassign the bugz against my name
[04:17] <froud> no point all of us doing it
[04:19] <froud> ChrisH, what is a good way to decribe the properties of the default ubuntu theme?
[04:19] <froud> for example in KDE we use
[04:19] <froud> Window decoration: Keramik (but take screenshots without window decoration if possible)
[04:19] <froud>       Widget style: Plastik
[04:19] <froud>       Colors: KDE Default
[04:19] <froud>       Background: Flat color - Color must be white
[04:19] <froud> Do you know of a way to do this for GNOME
[04:20] <Kinnison> "Use the Ubuntu default theme"
[04:20] <Kinnison> describes 100% of the look
[04:20] <Kinnison> If you edit the theme; it gets a new name
[04:20] <froud> Kinnison, ok where can I find a description of the properties
[04:20] <Kinnison> In the theme dialog
[04:20] <froud> right that is why I want to specifu its properties
[04:21] <froud> yes, I am looking for a short way to decribe it like above
[04:22] <Kinnison> Why?
[04:25] <froud> So people can rest to the default and verify their settings
[04:27] <froud> Kinnison, see the taking screeshots section in https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/AboutTheUbuntuCoreDocumentationProject
[04:28] <Kinnison> froud: The theme which calls itself the ubuntu default theme *is* the right grouping
[04:28] <Kinnison> if you change from the defaults; it creates a new theme
[04:28] <Kinnison> implicitly
[04:28] <froud> Yes
[04:28] <froud> this is why I want people to have exact settings so they can adjust
[04:29] <froud> the idea is that everyone will use the same look/feel and specs for taking screen capts
[04:29] <froud> This adds consitancy and enhances the look and feel
[04:29] <Kinnison> I'm still failing to understand why "Ubuntu Default Theme" is less than 100% of what you need to say to people in order to enforce that look/feel?
[04:30] <froud> what is the person changed from default? How do they get back
[04:31] <froud> I also still have to test Ubuntu Default for B/W print outputs
[04:31] <ChrisH> froud: looks like the /usr/share/yelp/toc.xml is invoked when running "yelp" without arguments... so that's probably why they don't need OMF files
[04:31] <froud> I think it will be ok 
[04:32] <froud> Yes
[04:32] <froud> They just called yelp /usr/share/yelp/toc.xml
[04:32] <froud> If we want to use scrollkeeper then we need to register
[04:32] <froud> I dont mind wich way
[04:33] <froud> its just that sivang and plovs wante dto do it
[04:33] <Kinnison> froud: by going to the theme dialog and chosing the default theme again
[04:33] <froud> Kinnison, yes, now what if that theme was modified and overwritten
[04:33] <froud> Lik eI did :-)
[04:34] <froud> Actually I know what the Ubuntu default looked like
[04:34] <Kinnison> froud: You fucked with the theme directly? On disk?
[04:34] <froud> but not how it was specified
[04:34] <froud> :-) sucker for toys
[04:34] <froud> what can I say
[04:35] <froud> I play with lot sof things on the disk
[04:35] <froud> just to see how they work
[04:35] <froud> and to explain stuff
[04:35] <Kinnison> So you went and messed with the ubuntu-artwork provided files
[04:35] <froud> yes
[04:35] <froud> I am sur eyou have dne this no
[04:36] <Kinnison> So say "The theme called 'Ubuntu Default Theme' as provided in the ubuntu-artwork package"
[04:36] <froud> OK, that's a great idea
[04:36] <froud> thanks
[04:36] <Kinnison> froud: I don't mess with them because then I lose my tweaks if I upgrade the package
[04:36] <froud> I have two boxes
[04:37] <froud> one I can trash the other I am gentle with :-)
[04:47] <plovs> the adminguide crashes my yelp
[04:47] <froud> Hmm
[04:48] <froud> Its not yelp ready
[04:48] <froud> no id attributes
[04:48] <froud> yet
[04:48] <froud> was going to insert them once we have a stable outline
[04:48] <plovs> ah, ok
[04:48] <froud> transform to html with oxygen
[04:48] <froud> :-)
[04:48] <plovs> no problem
[04:48] <froud> BTW hows it going with Oxygen
[04:49] <plovs> i do most of my work through ssh, so only in the evening i sometimes use it, it is nice but big, i can't find my way around yet
[04:50] <froud> ok
[05:19] <froud> enrico, 
[05:21] <froud> I have done some investigation into the screencaptures. I think that if we use 120ppi we can use a single PNG image for dual purpose
[05:23] <enrico> you mean dpi, isn't it?
[05:24] <enrico> How come 120?  Sounds large for an HTML page, and not much for printing (I know default dpi for colour pictures in magazines is 300)
[05:25] <ChrisH> I probably missed it... are we going the graphical way again? Didn't the translators complain that they didn't want to take screenshots for every version and every language?
[05:28] <enrico> ChrisH: have a look at QuickGuide, I added the result of a conversation with mako about translated screenshots
[05:29] <plovs> froud: svn up look at creating boot disks in adminguide what do you think as basic layout? how to make stuff bold and headerlike?
[05:30] <froud> ok
[05:30] <froud> just recovering from driving my box into a wall
[05:32] <enrico> plovs: hello.  In the WikiWishlist page, you said that "attachments/pictures somewhat works, just a pain to use".  However, I found no way to make them work.  How do you show a picture in a Moin page in Zwiki?
[05:34] <froud> plovs, nice I particularly like <ulink type="help" url="ghelp:mkboot">man-page</ulink>
[05:34] <plovs> enrico: that was a note from the ReST days
[05:35] <enrico> plovs: so, in Moin it just doesn't work?
[05:35] <plovs> enrico: how shall i say it positively? maybe in the future it will
[05:35] <plovs> froud: something like that should work in the latest yelp
[05:36] <ChrisH> enrico: should I find any screenshots in the quickguide already?
[05:36] <froud> plovs, did you test it
[05:37] <enrico> ChrisH: not afaik, as we still haven't formalised how the screenshots would exactly fit there
[05:37] <plovs> froud: no, adminguide crashes yelp
[05:37] <ChrisH> enrico: what exactly did you mean I should look at?
[05:37] <froud> enrico, I am closing a doc on screencaptures
[05:37] <enrico> froud: talking about that, where did the 120dpi number come from?  And how do I run an application at 120dpi to take a screenshot of it?
[05:38] <froud> enrico, 120ppi
[05:38] <froud> not dpi
[05:38] <enrico> oh... what's the difference between a dot and a point?
[05:38] <plovs> those italians...
[05:38] <enrico> ChrisH: wiki.ubuntu.com/QuickGuide, go down the page, there are some words on screenshots
[05:38] <froud> ok, long story
[05:39] <enrico> froud: uhm... you can skip it if you want] 
[05:39] <enrico> froud: but in change for skipping it, you should disclose how to take a screenshot of an application at 120ppi :)
[05:39] <froud> but if we use 120 ppi we can have a single image for both print and html
[05:39] <froud> yes,        trying to do this with GIMP
[05:40] <froud> is everyone OK using GIMP?
[05:40] <ChrisH> enrico: okay... 
[05:40] <plovs> corey had some really nice stuff with svg as well, btw
[05:40] <plovs> but gimp is fine with me
[05:41] <froud> yes svg is an option, but Yelp screams blue murder with SG
[05:41] <plovs> yelp does support svg
[05:41] <froud> SVG
[05:41] <froud> :-)
[05:41] <froud> so many pro's and con's wish there was just a standard for it
[05:42] <plovs> maybe we should settle for fast and simple for now
[05:42] <froud> fast and simple now, not so good in long run :-)
[05:42] <plovs> ok, let's rephrase that to lean and mean
[05:42] <froud> take the time now you dont want to redo 100's of screen capts later
[05:43] <froud> :-)
[05:43] <froud> enrico, 
[05:43] <froud> PNG capture for multi-output captures a screen at an 8-bit optimized indexed color depth and 120 ppi, which is well suited for printing to a 600-dpi laser printer and for color display to the screen.
[05:43] <plovs> wont thos pics become really big?
[05:43] <enrico> How big would those images be?
[05:43] <froud> I am documenting the method for GIMP
[05:43] <froud> as small as possible
[05:43] <froud> ?
[05:43] <froud> :-)
[05:44] <froud> they are larger
[05:44] <froud> but we gain by having dual use
[05:44] <enrico> Yes, but knowing a bit of the order of magnitude would help
[05:44] <froud> 6 of this, half a dozen of the other
[05:44] <froud> not much bigger
[05:45] <froud> if varies according to the screen size being captured
[05:45] <enrico> Order of magnitude 6 means 100000bytes per images?
[05:45] <froud> so what do you want
[05:45] <froud> two images
[05:45] <froud> 1 low res
[05:46] <froud> and 1 high
[05:46] <froud> this takes you well paste this point :-)
[05:46] <plovs> are we talking 15kb vs 18kb or 15kb vs 1.2mb ?
[05:46] <froud> I am trying to find the best comprise from all sides
[05:46] <froud> +-20KB
[05:47] <froud> PNG at 120 ppi
[05:47] <froud> is much bigger
[05:48] <enrico> froud: have you taken a screenshot at 120ppi?  If yes, could you please tell the dimensions in pixels of the application, and the file size?
[05:49] <froud> Ok you will see. Hold da horses
[06:04] <enrico> BTW, I read in the logs that yesterday you wondered how to register things with scrollkeeper.  It's actually done automatically by Debian tools in the Debian packaging, so we don't have to worry about that.  Sivan is taking care of the Debian packaging, promised some nice things recently, but hasn't moved yet
[06:07] <sivang> enrico: I will be swamped until the 10th so ChrisH is going to fill in in the meanwhile.
[06:08] <sivang> enrico: GNOME FF
[06:08] <sivang> enrico: feature freeze..
[06:09] <enrico> sivang: ok, cool!
[06:12] <mako> enrico: ciao
[06:12] <enrico> mako: ciao!
[06:12] <sivang> mako: hey mako
[06:12] <enrico> mako: we're making advances with screenshots
[06:13] <mako> enrico: *great*
[06:13] <mako> sivang, everyone: hey there
[06:13] <enrico> mako: we're now discussing ppis, file formats and specific docbook inclusion technicques
[06:13] <mako> enrico: so quick question about the wiki
[06:13] <enrico> mako: printed version, screen version and so on
[06:13] <enrico> mako: please ask
[06:14] <sivang> mako: do you know how to idents makred code blocks in emacs? :)
[06:14] <sivang> mako: if you could tell me the shipment or box number of my cd box set, that would be good, as I will try tracking them down using your courier or my mail service.
[06:14] <mako> sivang: hold up bud :)
[06:14] <mako> enrico: so, all these links to files were broken in the wiki transition.. some are still broken
[06:15] <sivang> mako: no prob :) sorry for bombarding.
[06:15] <mako> enrico: files that wre uploaded
[06:15] <mako> enrico: i need some of those files now and might as well link them up to the wiki while i'm at it
[06:15] <mako> enrico: there is one example http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UbuntuArtwork
[06:16] <enrico> mako: eh, good question.  I recently added to WikiWishlist a request for how to link images with Moin format
[06:16] <mako> enrico: even i can just *get* the files.. non-linked.. it would be good
[06:16] <enrico> mako: we can't figure out how to do that with the Zwiki moin implementation.
[06:17] <mako> enrico: that's *very* annoying
[06:17] <enrico> mako: if you want to retrieve those, you can try making a page in ReST linking htem
[06:17] <mako> enrico: but ok
[06:17] <enrico> mako: very annoying
[06:17] <mako> enrico: so.. are those attachments loaded into the zwiki?
[06:17] <mako> enrico: or should they be?
[06:18] <mako> enrico: my bigger problem.. is that i don't even know how to find those old files
[06:18] <mako> they were in the old wiki. but i can't get to the old wiki anymore!
[06:20] <mako> hah
[06:20] <mako> i found it
[06:20] <enrico> I think they should be: pages in ReST, for example reference and show attached images correctly
[06:20] <mako> get ready... 
[06:20] <mako> https://www.ubuntu.com/FrontPage
[06:20] <enrico> Nice certificate mismatch!
[06:20] <mako> 18:20 < Kamion> mako: I found it by way of a bug
[06:22] <enrico> mako: that's however wiki.ubuntu.com/FrontPage, or www.ubuntu.com/wiki/FrontPage
[06:22] <enrico> mako: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FrontPage is also ok
[06:22] <enrico> mako: ah, ok, you get it from the old wiki
[06:23] <mako> i need the old wiki
[06:23] <mako> because not all of the attachments were uploaded
[06:24] <enrico> mako: oh, cool
[06:24] <mako> so i'm going to fix up the artwork page.. which , evidently, will mean changing the format
[06:24] <enrico> so it seems.  Do we have someone that is around to improve zwiki in some reliable way?
[06:24] <enrico> froud: hello again!
[06:24] <mako> enrico: yeah.. we're looking to hire someone to do that i think
[06:24] <sivang> mako: already did it , dozen of times :-/
[06:24] <enrico> froud: I had a look at the "Taking Screen Captures" section and I'm quite puzzled
[06:25] <enrico> ehm... gotta repeat that later
[06:25] <enrico> mako: oh, that'd be nice.  Wanna know another problem with zwiki?
[06:26] <mako> sivang: dude, it's so done :)
[06:27] <mako> sivang: there's been one since we've had zwiki.. 
[06:27] <mako> sivang: if we'd known better, we would have had one BEFORE we had zwiki
[06:27] <enrico> Every page is no-cache-no-cache.  So, if you're editing a page and for some reason firefox shows another page (either "firefox xx.html" is run by something else or you click on a link by mistake, or you hit backspace when the focus is not on the edit area), then you hit "back" or "forward" and your form is fucking completely reset
[06:27] <enrico> sivang: try WikiWishlist
[06:27] <mako> enrico: right.. i remember that one
[06:28] <enrico> mako: happened again when trying one of the commands I was inputing: it was "firefox foo/bar/baz.html"
[06:28] <enrico> It just showed up instead of the page I was editing, not in a new tab
[06:28] <enrico> (annoying problem of firefox, I guess)
[06:31] <enrico> gosh, froud seems to be gone
[06:33] <mako> enrico: i've been having weird mozilla problems lately
[06:33] <mako> enrico: really annoying ones
[06:33] <sivang> mako: yeah :)
[06:33] <mako> hard to pin down and produce.. but it keeps thinking urls, even links, are local paths
[06:38] <enrico> mako: there's another issue to be solved sooner or later: we're writing DocBook, and we can package things in a .deb file.  However, DocBook makes HTML, and it's cool to put our docs online and link them from the wiki pages and so on.  But where can we put those static HTML pages online?
[06:38] <enrico> None of us can upload things in any part of ubuntu web space
[06:39] <sivang> enrico: I think plone allows that
[06:39] <enrico> sivang: it's not one page.  It's a huge pile of html pages and images
[06:39] <sivang> enrico: eh true
[06:40] <sivang> issues of dynamically controlled CMSs...
[06:40] <sivang> :)
[06:40] <enrico> so, the issue is still open
[06:41] <enrico> mako: I anticipate this here because I have no clue on how to work that out.  Having some names to ask to would get me started on the quest
[07:02] <froud> shikes Sax2 kill me in a bad way
[07:14] <froud> what happend to enrico?
[07:17] <froud> plovs, you want lean and mean, how about command line graphics capture
[07:17] <froud> http://www.inwords.co.za/test.png
[07:21] <plovs> froud: checking it out
[07:23] <plovs> froud: enrico went to bed
[07:23] <froud> oh no
[07:23] <plovs> jet lag
[07:24] <froud> I was fiddling with SaX2 and it blew me out bad
[07:24] <froud> could not recover in time
[07:24] <plovs> aj, that's bad
[07:24] <froud> Do you have image magic insalled
[07:24] <plovs> i could
[07:24] <froud> do it
[07:24] <froud> then run
[07:24] <froud> import -depth 8 -dither test.png
[07:25] <froud> This file will not be that small. but read on
[07:25] <froud> open the png in GIMP and select Image > Flatten
[07:25] <froud> Then save and recheck the file size
[07:27] <froud> if you want to capture the frame then do import -frame -depth 8 -dither test.png
[07:28] <plovs> ok, that's ok
[07:29] <froud> my capts still look a bit fuzzy caus eof my SaX settings
[07:29] <froud> Is that simple enough you think
[07:29] <froud> quick and does the job
[07:30] <froud> Do you have a laser printer near by
[07:30] <froud> print it I think it looks ok
[07:30] <froud> which means we can have single files for dual purposes
[07:31] <froud> I am adding it all to wiki now
[07:31] <plovs> yes, looks ok on 600dpi
[07:31] <plovs> got to bring back dvd's be right back
[07:32] <froud> is it fuzzy for you, on my HP 600 it look good clear
[07:32] <froud> ok
[07:32] <plovs> froud: looks ok on hp 6l as well
[07:32] <froud> ok good
[09:13] <abelli> ciao
[09:13] <froud> chow
[10:15] <abelli> ciao