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| plovs | morning all | 06:47 |
|---|---|---|
| plovs | froud: you're early! | 06:47 |
| froud | plovs, hi, sorry, yes. School is back so I must take kids. | 07:37 |
| froud | African greetings | 07:40 |
| === froud steps out for awhile. I'll be back. | ||
| froud | Yo dudes, does anyone other than plovs and I read and respond to messages on the list? | 08:23 |
| froud | I've been making proposals and requesting comment on a number of issues but people just dont seem to respond. Now some will say silence is consent, but geeze on virtually every item proposed or requested, people dont answer. I wonder if I am part of a comunity project or not :-) | 08:26 |
| plovs | morning, dropping in during work for a sec | 08:46 |
| froud | morning plovs | 08:46 |
| plovs | froud: what do you think for the admin guide, the idea with the boot-disk was small work-scenarios, goal,tools,howto,notes,extra info | 08:46 |
| plovs | thos steps as a basic outline, what do you think? | 08:47 |
| froud | I answered on list. Yes I think it can work as a basic framework | 08:48 |
| froud | It is short and to the point | 08:48 |
| froud | something admins like | 08:48 |
| froud | We will however need to test it on other topics | 08:48 |
| froud | but in general, YES, VERY GOOD | 08:49 |
| froud | plovs, do you know which sections you want to do in the books | 08:53 |
| plovs | whatever, as long as I know what I have to do I can write about it | 08:53 |
| plovs | let me see ... | 08:53 |
| froud | Ok well I think it best to decide and mark it as per my proposal | 08:54 |
| froud | hopefully others will do the same | 08:54 |
| froud | It would help for the Owners List | 08:54 |
| plovs | i can start with servers | 08:54 |
| froud | That's a big section | 08:54 |
| froud | do you want to be more specific | 08:55 |
| froud | I suggest taking small parts you want to do | 08:55 |
| plovs | i'll write basic installation for all the servers, eg apt-get install ... | 08:55 |
| plovs | then we have a start, for more specific stuff, eg apache + php + etc, we need subtopics, i won't do those | 08:56 |
| froud | so you are talking only about admin guide now | 08:56 |
| plovs | yes | 08:56 |
| plovs | userguide, quick-guide, i don't know what to with them still | 08:56 |
| froud | OK, this is a general problem I need to work a solution | 08:57 |
| froud | I will propose shortly | 08:57 |
| froud | for now please add your authorblurb to the sectX's you will be prepared to do | 08:58 |
| froud | that will be a start | 08:58 |
| froud | I will do the same | 08:58 |
| froud | in some cases we may choose the same items | 08:58 |
| froud | in these situations we can choose to collaborate | 08:58 |
| froud | to help one another I suggest we post information about completed its to the list and request people to check them | 08:59 |
| froud | for this reason I suggest work small and commit often | 08:59 |
| froud | For example you may take the section "Heterogeneous Networks" | 09:00 |
| froud | when you have finished it, commit and let it be known on the list | 09:00 |
| froud | BTW if you feel the need to add subsections just do it | 09:00 |
| plovs | speaking about authorblurb, where is that located now? | 09:05 |
| froud | He is an example: | 09:08 |
| froud | <chapter id="chp-admin-serv-hetnet"> | 09:08 |
| froud | <title>Heterogeneous Networks</title> | 09:08 |
| froud | <authorblurb><para>Your Name</para></authorblurb> | 09:08 |
| froud | <para>text</para> | 09:08 |
| froud | </chapter> | 09:08 |
| froud | plovs, there is no authorblurb at present, I am using it as a temp solution for now, just to record who is doing what | 09:13 |
| froud | However, it is possible for authors to add authorblurbs to the authorgroup | 09:13 |
| froud | however, authorblurb is depressed by default on most systems and will not show | 09:14 |
| plovs | maybe it is a good idea to make an external autoblurb? and then include it &autoblurb; ? | 09:15 |
| froud | it does show in Yelp | 09:15 |
| froud | you mean like one for each author | 09:16 |
| froud | &blurb-plov; &blurb-froud; | 09:16 |
| froud | Is this waht you mean | 09:16 |
| plovs | maybe one for each document, quick, admin, etc | 09:16 |
| froud | I dont understand | 09:17 |
| plovs | make it just like ©right; &disclaimer; &legalnotice; &publisher; | 09:18 |
| froud | Oh I c | 09:18 |
| froud | so then it is better to do that with author | 09:18 |
| plovs | yeah | 09:18 |
| froud | like this | 09:19 |
| froud | <author> | 09:19 |
| froud | <firstname>Sean</firstname> | 09:19 |
| froud | <surname>Wheller</surname> | 09:19 |
| froud | <authorblurb> | 09:19 |
| froud | <para>A good tool</para> | 09:19 |
| froud | </authorblurb> | 09:19 |
| froud | <!-- <email>sean@inwords.co.za</email> --> | 09:19 |
| froud | </author> | 09:19 |
| froud | The <authorgroup>&abc; &efg, &hij; </authorgroup> | 09:20 |
| plovs | yes, and the parts you are working on | 09:20 |
| froud | This will enable a more modular approach to author management | 09:20 |
| plovs | i love modular, i dislike code-duplication | 09:20 |
| froud | Hmm, I see you want to collect information from the doc body and add the list in the authorblurb | 09:20 |
| froud | that's a good idea, let me see how I can make it dynamic | 09:21 |
| plovs | btw what did you mean with Heterogeneous networks? installing or administring? | 09:21 |
| plovs | adminning? what is the real word? | 09:21 |
| froud | A general intoduction to how Ubuntu works in a Hetrogeneuous network | 09:22 |
| froud | What can it talk? | 09:22 |
| froud | what does it have | 09:22 |
| froud | Samba, AppleTalk | 09:22 |
| froud | IPX/SPX | 09:22 |
| froud | etc | 09:22 |
| plovs | this would be an intro to further explanation later then, how to use ubuntu with: samba active directory etc, do i understand that correctly? | 09:24 |
| froud | yes it needs an overview to collect it together | 09:25 |
| froud | for admins we dont need to explain what hetrogeneous networks are | 09:25 |
| froud | just how Ubuntu fits in | 09:25 |
| froud | I assume net admins know what hetrogen networks are | 09:26 |
| froud | I am working on a document spec that will define everything about the admin guide | 09:26 |
| froud | plovs, do svn up look in admin guide and tell me if this is what you meant | 09:54 |
| froud | grrr. yelp is a bunch of %$#@ | 10:02 |
| froud | I vote we axe yelp | 10:07 |
| plovs | froud: voted down, sorry | 10:07 |
| plovs | :-) | 10:07 |
| plovs | do you use the latest yelp? | 10:08 |
| froud | plovs, problem | 10:08 |
| froud | if you work on multiple books | 10:08 |
| froud | your authorblurb will have references to each of them | 10:08 |
| plovs | i actually like chm, but that runs on the wrong platform ;-) | 10:08 |
| plovs | froud: in svn what do i do with a conflict? i tried to commit, but you committed already | 10:09 |
| froud | do you have kdiff3 | 10:09 |
| froud | or some other three diff tool | 10:09 |
| plovs | yes (dif) | 10:10 |
| froud | just use it to resolve the conflict | 10:10 |
| froud | 3-way | 10:10 |
| plovs | so do a dif and patch? | 10:10 |
| froud | no | 10:10 |
| froud | you need to examine my changes and yours | 10:10 |
| froud | resolve the conflict and then commit | 10:11 |
| plovs | what i did before is mv <myfile>, svn up, dif <yourfile> <myfile> > guide.dif, patch <yourfile> < guide.dif | 10:11 |
| plovs | but that's a lot of steps, for something really basic | 10:12 |
| froud | ok that's lots of steps | 10:12 |
| froud | you under gui now | 10:12 |
| froud | install a 3-way diff | 10:12 |
| froud | and eSvn | 10:12 |
| froud | anyway if your method resolves it then no problem | 10:13 |
| froud | yelp is so limiting | 10:13 |
| plovs | installing | 10:14 |
| plovs | not so many people have tried to push the limits of yelp, if we write a good manual and then complain, we will be able to get the yelp people to add features | 10:15 |
| froud | I speak to Shaum about it on regular basis | 10:16 |
| froud | but they face problems | 10:16 |
| froud | they need buy-in from distros and author groups | 10:16 |
| froud | only then can they satndardize certain functions | 10:16 |
| froud | until then its broke | 10:17 |
| froud | the problem is that docbook is not gnome specific | 10:17 |
| froud | but yelp is | 10:17 |
| froud | in implimenting docbook under yelp the gnome project induced yelp and gnome specific features | 10:18 |
| plovs | they need to figure out what they want, a docbook viewer is not rocket-science | 10:18 |
| froud | not good | 10:18 |
| plovs | btw your adminguide doesn't work in yelp | 10:18 |
| froud | It works in mine :-0 | 10:19 |
| froud | what errors do you get | 10:19 |
| froud | do an svn up and try it again | 10:20 |
| froud | " docbook viewer is not rocket-science" actually it is | 10:20 |
| froud | tell me the errors you yet | 10:21 |
| === froud notes that Oracle could layoff 6000 people. WOW http://www.forbes.com/home/markets/2005/01/10/0110automarketscan11.html | ||
| plovs | must have been a sun-flare, now it works | 10:23 |
| froud | Ok now look under title page | 10:24 |
| froud | look under my name | 10:24 |
| froud | how doeees the formatting look | 10:24 |
| froud | do you see "How to use this book" in BIG LETTERS | 10:25 |
| froud | even simple xref's present a problem for yelp | 10:26 |
| froud | grrrr | 10:26 |
| plovs | hmmm, not to upset you even more but I see neither a title-page nor your name anywhare | 10:27 |
| plovs | brb | 10:27 |
| froud | on what version r you | 10:27 |
| === froud notes "IBM Offers 500 Patents for Open-Source Use" | ||
| froud | Yelp is just to erratic | 10:28 |
| === froud thinks good old chunked HTML/XHTML is better | ||
| froud | more flexible and less lockin | 10:29 |
| froud | plovs, ? | 10:31 |
| froud | look under contents, and click "About this book" | 10:32 |
| plovs | ok, back | 10:34 |
| froud | read above | 10:35 |
| plovs | yelp 2.9.2, the one with bookmarks | 10:35 |
| froud | great toy, but does not help | 10:35 |
| plovs | Unmatched element: simpara and index | 10:37 |
| froud | yes yelp does not support many elements | 10:38 |
| froud | indexes, glossary and biliographies dont work | 10:38 |
| froud | look under contents and click "About this book" | 10:38 |
| plovs | so all the seious stuff is not (yet) there | 10:38 |
| froud | which mean it is not yet mature enough for serious production environments | 10:39 |
| plovs | The Uniform Resource Identifier file:///home/plovs/SVN/faq/trunk/adminguide/x-yelp-titlepage is invalid or does not point to an actual file. | 10:39 |
| froud | but you do have this in the document | 10:40 |
| froud | and I see it on earlier versions | 10:40 |
| froud | how can one be expected to work with a tool that depeciates stuff like this | 10:41 |
| froud | IMHO it would be better to focus on plain old HTML/XHTML that way it stays stable | 10:41 |
| froud | and remain compatible with all desktops Ubuntu may ship inthe furture | 10:44 |
| plovs | not using yelp seems rather sad, then we might just as well remove the whole app if the documentation does not use it | 10:45 |
| froud | while I appreciate that Ubuntu is at present using a GNOME desktop, I dont think it wise for the doc team to assume this will be the norm forever. I am certain we will have a number of desktops. | 10:46 |
| froud | maintaining nuances between them in the documents will become a big overhead unless we remain neutral in our base src | 10:47 |
| froud | I ask myself the following questions in this dilema | 10:47 |
| froud | 1. What is the purpose of the docs? | 10:48 |
| plovs | i suppose yelp will catch up, we just need to make good docs that need those features | 10:48 |
| froud | 2. Does the audience really care how it is presented with what tool? | 10:48 |
| froud | I think people just want docs that are accessible with their desktop of choice | 10:49 |
| froud | they dont care about yelp or KHelpCenter | 10:49 |
| froud | for all they care you can use the default system web browser | 10:50 |
| froud | doe any of this make sense to you? | 10:50 |
| froud | or am I just in my own world as usual? | 10:50 |
| plovs | yes, i just like the idea of a good help system | 10:50 |
| plovs | and i like the idea of yelp | 10:50 |
| plovs | better then using a browser | 10:51 |
| froud | yelp does not make or break the help system | 10:51 |
| froud | the content and its organization is what makes a good help system | 10:51 |
| froud | underneath yelp is firefox | 10:52 |
| plovs | i still think you should either use the help system or dump it having two (or more) help-systems is bad imho | 10:53 |
| plovs | either use a browser for verything or for nothing | 10:53 |
| froud | well we cant mandate that for vendors | 10:54 |
| plovs | a small local web-server that serves man-pages would already do | 10:54 |
| froud | yes | 10:54 |
| froud | put it on a port | 10:54 |
| froud | use dig for search etc | 10:55 |
| froud | you can still have a tree nav toc on the right | 10:55 |
| froud | or left | 10:55 |
| froud | my thinking is that the help system should be a web application under which you can easily plug in docs | 10:56 |
| froud | you can deploy it on the localhost or on a central server in the organization | 10:57 |
| plovs | that might not be a popular idea as it dumps the whole gnome-framework | 10:57 |
| froud | what do you mean | 10:57 |
| plovs | i personally just want something that works (tm) | 10:57 |
| froud | yes, but we have to maintain it | 10:58 |
| plovs | it would mean dumping yelp and the underlying system | 10:58 |
| froud | for it to "Just Work" | 10:58 |
| froud | is that a big loss | 10:58 |
| plovs | it's good we work in docbook, at least we are ok, no matter what | 10:58 |
| plovs | ok, my wife pulls me away from the computer, brb | 10:58 |
| froud | will people still have access to the docs | 10:58 |
| froud | Ah ha know the problem | 10:59 |
| froud | c ya | 10:59 |
| plovs | ok, back from lunch | 11:48 |
| plovs | froud: this shaun does he do irc? | 11:50 |
| plovs | we might ask him about the plans for yelp and what is and what isn't supported | 11:51 |
| froud | He is on the GNOME docs channel | 11:52 |
| froud | but he does not have solutions to all our problems | 11:52 |
| froud | what I prose is to use HTML/XHTML for now since this does not exclude ffffffuture use of yelp, when it is able to handle the capabilities we want and need. | 11:53 |
| froud | See my latest written works in the mailing list :-) | 11:53 |
| plovs | ok, readin list ... | 11:54 |
| === froud has to collect a freind from the airport. c u l8tr. | ||
| plovs | cu | 11:58 |
| plovs | ok, back | 01:21 |
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| plovs | hi guys | 01:32 |
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| skyrider | hi guys | 01:57 |
| skyrider | I've already asked this question few days ago but nobody replied since then so I'll repeat my question. | 02:00 |
| skyrider | What is the reason to have two pages in wiki about Hoary release shedule? | 02:00 |
| skyrider | I'm talking about http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryReleaseSchedule and http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryHedgehogReleaseSchedule | 02:01 |
| skyrider | HoaryHedgehogReleaseSchedule looks like obsolete version of HoaryReleaseSchedule page | 02:01 |
| skyrider | why it still don't deleted? | 02:02 |
| plovs | skyrider: let me take a look | 02:09 |
| skyrider | plovs: ok | 02:10 |
| plovs | skyrider: ok, i asked the owner of the pages | 02:12 |
| skyrider | plovs: ok. thanks! | 02:13 |
| plovs | skyrider: np | 02:13 |
| === enrico says hi to people | ||
| enrico | I'm in Taipei at the moment, will be back in a couple of days | 02:28 |
| enrico | I hoped to have network more often here | 02:29 |
| enrico | just gave a talk about custom debians | 02:29 |
| sivang | enrico: hi!!! | 02:33 |
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| hornbeck | enrico: you around? | 02:53 |
| enrico | hornbeck: yes | 03:01 |
| hornbeck | hey, there you are | 03:02 |
| hornbeck | I just sent you a email | 03:02 |
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| enrico | hornbeck: checking mail now | 03:05 |
| hornbeck | ok | 03:05 |
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| enrico | hornbeck: writing to elmo over IRC now | 03:08 |
| hornbeck | ok | 03:09 |
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| enrico | hornbeck: we agreed that in a couple of days we'll plan a move with a scheduled downtime advertised with one or two days advance | 03:13 |
| hornbeck | ok | 03:13 |
| hornbeck | that sounds good to me | 03:13 |
| enrico | hornbeck: I'm in Taipei at the moment, I'll get back to my gf house in a couple of days, that's why the 2 days | 03:13 |
| hornbeck | thats fine | 03:13 |
| hornbeck | I just don't want anything I do to affect you guys | 03:14 |
| enrico | Hope we'll manage quickly | 03:14 |
| enrico | Well, you have your life after all | 03:14 |
| hornbeck | I am sure we will | 03:14 |
| hornbeck | :-) | 03:14 |
| enrico | time is over now. Disconnecting.... | 03:14 |
| hornbeck | me to | 03:14 |
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| sivang | hey froud | 11:40 |
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