/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2005/01/22/#ubuntu-doc.txt

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plovsmorning all06:47
plovsfroud: you're early!06:47
froudplovs, hi, sorry, yes. School is back so I must take kids.07:37
froudAfrican greetings07:40
=== froud steps out for awhile. I'll be back.
froudYo dudes, does anyone other than plovs and I read and respond to messages on the list?08:23
froudI've been making proposals and requesting comment on a number of issues but people just dont seem to respond. Now some will say silence is consent, but geeze on virtually every item proposed or requested, people dont answer. I wonder if I am part of a comunity project or not :-)08:26
plovsmorning, dropping in during work for a sec08:46
froudmorning plovs08:46
plovsfroud: what do you think for the admin guide, the idea with the boot-disk was small work-scenarios, goal,tools,howto,notes,extra info08:46
plovsthos  steps as a basic outline, what do you think?08:47
froudI answered on list. Yes I think it can work as a basic framework08:48
froudIt is short and to the point08:48
froudsomething admins like08:48
froudWe will however need to test it on other topics08:48
froudbut in general, YES, VERY GOOD08:49
froudplovs, do you know which sections you want to do in the books08:53
plovswhatever, as long as I know what I have to do I can write about it08:53
plovslet me see ...08:53
froudOk well I think it best to decide and mark it as per my proposal08:54
froudhopefully others will do the same08:54
froudIt would help for the Owners List08:54
plovsi can start with servers08:54
froudThat's a big section08:54
frouddo you want to be more specific08:55
froudI suggest taking small parts you want to do08:55
plovsi'll write basic installation for all the servers, eg apt-get install ...08:55
plovsthen we have a start, for more specific stuff, eg apache + php + etc, we need subtopics, i won't do those08:56
froudso you are talking only about admin guide now08:56
plovsyes08:56
plovsuserguide, quick-guide, i don't know what to with them still08:56
froudOK, this is a general problem I need to work a solution08:57
froudI will propose shortly08:57
froudfor now please add your authorblurb to the sectX's you will be prepared to do08:58
froudthat will be a start08:58
froudI will do the same08:58
froudin some cases we may choose the same items08:58
froudin these situations we can choose to collaborate08:58
froudto help one another I suggest we post information about completed its to the list and request people to check them08:59
froudfor this reason I suggest work small and commit often08:59
froudFor example you may take the section "Heterogeneous Networks"09:00
froudwhen you have finished it, commit and let it be known on the list09:00
froudBTW if you feel the need to add subsections just do it09:00
plovsspeaking about authorblurb, where is that located now?09:05
froudHe is an example:09:08
froud<chapter id="chp-admin-serv-hetnet">09:08
froud            <title>Heterogeneous Networks</title>09:08
froud            <authorblurb><para>Your Name</para></authorblurb>09:08
froud            <para>text</para>09:08
froud        </chapter>09:08
froudplovs, there is no authorblurb at present, I am using it as a temp solution for now, just to record who is doing what09:13
froudHowever, it is possible for authors to add authorblurbs to the authorgroup09:13
froudhowever, authorblurb is depressed by default on most systems and will not show09:14
plovsmaybe it is a good idea to make an external autoblurb? and then include it &autoblurb; ?09:15
froudit does show in Yelp09:15
froudyou mean like one for each author09:16
froud&blurb-plov; &blurb-froud;09:16
froudIs this waht you mean09:16
plovsmaybe one for each document, quick, admin, etc09:16
froudI dont understand09:17
plovsmake it just like &copyright; &disclaimer; &legalnotice; &publisher; 09:18
froudOh I c09:18
froudso then it is better to do that with author09:18
plovsyeah09:18
froudlike this09:19
froud<author>09:19
froud                <firstname>Sean</firstname>09:19
froud                <surname>Wheller</surname>09:19
froud                <authorblurb>09:19
froud                    <para>A good tool</para>09:19
froud                </authorblurb>09:19
froud                <!-- <email>sean@inwords.co.za</email> -->09:19
froud            </author>09:19
froudThe <authorgroup>&abc; &efg, &hij; </authorgroup>09:20
plovsyes, and the parts you are working on09:20
froudThis will enable a more modular approach to author management09:20
plovsi love modular, i dislike code-duplication09:20
froudHmm, I see you want to collect information from the doc body and add the list in the authorblurb09:20
froudthat's a good idea, let me see how I can make it dynamic09:21
plovsbtw what did you mean with Heterogeneous networks? installing or administring?09:21
plovsadminning? what is the real word?09:21
froudA general intoduction to how Ubuntu works in a Hetrogeneuous network09:22
froudWhat can it talk?09:22
froudwhat does it have09:22
froudSamba, AppleTalk09:22
froudIPX/SPX09:22
froudetc09:22
plovsthis would be an intro to further explanation later then, how to use ubuntu with: samba active directory etc, do i understand that correctly?09:24
froudyes it needs an overview to collect it together09:25
froudfor admins we dont need to explain what hetrogeneous networks are09:25
froudjust how Ubuntu fits in09:25
froudI assume net admins know what hetrogen networks are09:26
froudI am working on a document spec that will define everything about the admin guide09:26
froudplovs, do svn up look in admin guide and tell me if this is what you meant09:54
froudgrrr. yelp is a bunch of %$#@10:02
froudI vote we axe yelp10:07
plovsfroud: voted down, sorry10:07
plovs:-)10:07
plovsdo you use the latest yelp?10:08
froudplovs, problem10:08
froudif you work on multiple books10:08
froudyour authorblurb will have references to each of them10:08
plovsi actually like chm, but that runs on the wrong platform ;-)10:08
plovsfroud: in svn what do i do with a conflict? i tried to commit, but you committed already10:09
frouddo you have kdiff310:09
froudor some other three diff tool10:09
plovsyes (dif)10:10
froudjust use it to resolve the conflict10:10
froud3-way10:10
plovsso do a dif and patch?10:10
froudno10:10
froudyou need to examine my changes and yours10:10
froudresolve the conflict and then commit10:11
plovswhat i did before is mv <myfile>, svn up, dif <yourfile> <myfile> > guide.dif, patch <yourfile> < guide.dif10:11
plovsbut that's a lot of steps, for something really basic10:12
froudok that's lots of steps10:12
froudyou under gui now10:12
froudinstall a 3-way diff10:12
froudand eSvn10:12
froudanyway if your method resolves it then no problem10:13
froudyelp is so limiting10:13
plovsinstalling10:14
plovsnot so many people have tried to push the limits of yelp, if we write a good manual and then complain, we will be able to get the yelp people to add features10:15
froudI speak to Shaum about it on regular basis10:16
froudbut they face problems10:16
froudthey need buy-in from distros and author groups10:16
froudonly then can they satndardize certain functions10:16
frouduntil then its broke10:17
froudthe problem is that docbook is not gnome specific10:17
froudbut yelp is10:17
froudin implimenting docbook under yelp the gnome project induced yelp and gnome specific features10:18
plovsthey need to figure out what they want, a docbook viewer is not rocket-science10:18
froudnot good10:18
plovsbtw your adminguide doesn't work in yelp10:18
froudIt works in mine :-010:19
froudwhat errors do you get10:19
frouddo an svn up and try it again10:20
froud" docbook viewer is not rocket-science" actually it is10:20
froudtell me the errors you yet10:21
=== froud notes that Oracle could layoff 6000 people. WOW http://www.forbes.com/home/markets/2005/01/10/0110automarketscan11.html
plovsmust have been a sun-flare, now it works10:23
froudOk now look under title page10:24
froudlook under my name10:24
froudhow doeees the formatting look10:24
frouddo you see "How to use this book" in BIG LETTERS10:25
froudeven simple xref's present a problem for yelp10:26
froudgrrrr10:26
plovshmmm, not to upset you even more but I see neither a title-page nor your name anywhare10:27
plovsbrb10:27
froudon what version r you10:27
=== froud notes "IBM Offers 500 Patents for Open-Source Use"
froudYelp is just to erratic10:28
=== froud thinks good old chunked HTML/XHTML is better
froudmore flexible and less lockin10:29
froudplovs, ?10:31
froudlook under contents, and click "About this book"10:32
plovsok, back10:34
froudread above10:35
plovsyelp 2.9.2, the one with bookmarks10:35
froudgreat toy, but does not help10:35
plovsUnmatched element: simpara and index10:37
froudyes yelp does not support many elements10:38
froudindexes, glossary and biliographies dont work10:38
froudlook under contents and click "About this book"10:38
plovsso all the seious stuff is not (yet) there10:38
froudwhich mean it is not yet mature enough for serious production environments10:39
plovsThe Uniform Resource Identifier file:///home/plovs/SVN/faq/trunk/adminguide/x-yelp-titlepage is invalid or does not point to an actual file.10:39
froudbut you do have this in the document10:40
froudand I see it on earlier versions10:40
froudhow can one be expected to work with a tool that depeciates stuff like this10:41
froudIMHO it would be better to focus on plain old HTML/XHTML that way it stays stable10:41
froudand remain compatible with all desktops Ubuntu may ship inthe furture10:44
plovsnot using yelp seems rather sad, then we might just as well remove the whole app if the documentation does not use it10:45
froudwhile I appreciate that Ubuntu is at present using a GNOME desktop, I dont think it wise for the doc team to assume this will be the norm forever. I am certain we will have a number of desktops.10:46
froudmaintaining nuances between them in the documents will become a big overhead unless we remain neutral in our base src10:47
froudI ask myself the following questions in this dilema10:47
froud1. What is the purpose of the docs?10:48
plovsi suppose yelp will catch up, we just need to make good docs that need those features10:48
froud2. Does the audience really care how it is presented with what tool?10:48
froudI think people just want docs that are accessible with their desktop of choice10:49
froudthey dont care about yelp or KHelpCenter10:49
froudfor all they care you can use the default system web browser10:50
frouddoe any of this make sense to you?10:50
froudor am I just in my own world as usual?10:50
plovsyes, i just like the idea of a good help system10:50
plovsand i like the idea of yelp10:50
plovsbetter then using a browser10:51
froudyelp does not make or break the help system10:51
froudthe content and its organization is what makes a good help system10:51
froudunderneath yelp is firefox10:52
plovsi still think you should either use the help system or dump it having two (or more) help-systems is bad imho10:53
plovseither use a browser for verything or for nothing10:53
froudwell we cant mandate that for vendors10:54
plovsa small local web-server that serves man-pages would already do10:54
froudyes10:54
froudput it on a port10:54
frouduse dig for search etc10:55
froudyou can still have a tree nav toc on the right10:55
froudor left10:55
froudmy thinking is that the help system should be a web application under which you can easily plug in docs10:56
froudyou can deploy it on the localhost or on a central server in the organization10:57
plovsthat might not be a popular idea as it dumps the whole gnome-framework10:57
froudwhat do you mean10:57
plovsi personally just want something that works (tm)10:57
froudyes,    but we have to maintain it10:58
plovsit would mean dumping yelp and the underlying system10:58
froudfor it to "Just Work"10:58
froudis that a big loss10:58
plovsit's good we work in docbook, at least we are ok, no matter what10:58
plovsok, my wife pulls me away from the computer, brb10:58
froudwill people still have access to the docs10:58
froudAh ha know the problem10:59
froudc ya10:59
plovsok, back from lunch11:48
plovsfroud: this shaun does he do irc?11:50
plovswe might ask him about the plans for yelp and what is and what isn't supported11:51
froudHe is on the GNOME docs channel11:52
froudbut he does not have solutions to all our problems11:52
froudwhat I prose is to use HTML/XHTML for now since this does not exclude ffffffuture use of yelp, when it is able to handle the capabilities we want and need.11:53
froudSee my latest written works in the mailing list :-)11:53
plovsok, readin list ...11:54
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plovscu11:58
plovsok, back01:21
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plovshi guys01:32
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skyriderhi guys01:57
skyriderI've already asked this question few days ago but nobody replied since then so I'll repeat my question.02:00
skyriderWhat is the reason to have two pages in wiki about Hoary release shedule?02:00
skyriderI'm talking about http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryReleaseSchedule and http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryHedgehogReleaseSchedule02:01
skyriderHoaryHedgehogReleaseSchedule looks like obsolete version of HoaryReleaseSchedule page02:01
skyriderwhy it still don't deleted?02:02
plovsskyrider: let me take a look02:09
skyriderplovs: ok02:10
plovsskyrider: ok, i asked the owner of the pages02:12
skyriderplovs: ok. thanks!02:13
plovsskyrider: np02:13
=== enrico says hi to people
enricoI'm in Taipei at the moment, will be back in a couple of days02:28
enricoI hoped to have network more often here02:29
enricojust gave a talk about custom debians02:29
sivangenrico: hi!!!02:33
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hornbeckenrico: you around?02:53
enricohornbeck: yes03:01
hornbeckhey, there you are03:02
hornbeckI just sent you a email03:02
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enricohornbeck: checking mail now03:05
hornbeckok03:05
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enricohornbeck: writing to elmo over IRC now03:08
hornbeckok03:09
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enricohornbeck: we agreed that in a couple of days we'll plan a move with a scheduled downtime advertised with one or two days advance03:13
hornbeckok03:13
hornbeckthat sounds good to me03:13
enricohornbeck: I'm in Taipei at the moment, I'll get back to my gf house in a couple of days, that's why the 2 days03:13
hornbeckthats fine03:13
hornbeckI just don't want anything I do to affect you guys03:14
enricoHope we'll manage quickly03:14
enricoWell, you have your life after all03:14
hornbeckI am sure we will03:14
hornbeck:-)03:14
enricotime is over now.  Disconnecting....03:14
hornbeckme to03:14
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sivanghey froud 11:40

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