[06:47] <plovs> morning all
[06:47] <plovs> froud: you're early!
[07:37] <froud> plovs, hi, sorry, yes. School is back so I must take kids.
[07:40] <froud> African greetings
[08:23] <froud> Yo dudes, does anyone other than plovs and I read and respond to messages on the list?
[08:26] <froud> I've been making proposals and requesting comment on a number of issues but people just dont seem to respond. Now some will say silence is consent, but geeze on virtually every item proposed or requested, people dont answer. I wonder if I am part of a comunity project or not :-)
[08:46] <plovs> morning, dropping in during work for a sec
[08:46] <froud> morning plovs
[08:46] <plovs> froud: what do you think for the admin guide, the idea with the boot-disk was small work-scenarios, goal,tools,howto,notes,extra info
[08:47] <plovs> thos  steps as a basic outline, what do you think?
[08:48] <froud> I answered on list. Yes I think it can work as a basic framework
[08:48] <froud> It is short and to the point
[08:48] <froud> something admins like
[08:48] <froud> We will however need to test it on other topics
[08:49] <froud> but in general, YES, VERY GOOD
[08:53] <froud> plovs, do you know which sections you want to do in the books
[08:53] <plovs> whatever, as long as I know what I have to do I can write about it
[08:53] <plovs> let me see ...
[08:54] <froud> Ok well I think it best to decide and mark it as per my proposal
[08:54] <froud> hopefully others will do the same
[08:54] <froud> It would help for the Owners List
[08:54] <plovs> i can start with servers
[08:54] <froud> That's a big section
[08:55] <froud> do you want to be more specific
[08:55] <froud> I suggest taking small parts you want to do
[08:55] <plovs> i'll write basic installation for all the servers, eg apt-get install ...
[08:56] <plovs> then we have a start, for more specific stuff, eg apache + php + etc, we need subtopics, i won't do those
[08:56] <froud> so you are talking only about admin guide now
[08:56] <plovs> yes
[08:56] <plovs> userguide, quick-guide, i don't know what to with them still
[08:57] <froud> OK, this is a general problem I need to work a solution
[08:57] <froud> I will propose shortly
[08:58] <froud> for now please add your authorblurb to the sectX's you will be prepared to do
[08:58] <froud> that will be a start
[08:58] <froud> I will do the same
[08:58] <froud> in some cases we may choose the same items
[08:58] <froud> in these situations we can choose to collaborate
[08:59] <froud> to help one another I suggest we post information about completed its to the list and request people to check them
[08:59] <froud> for this reason I suggest work small and commit often
[09:00] <froud> For example you may take the section "Heterogeneous Networks"
[09:00] <froud> when you have finished it, commit and let it be known on the list
[09:00] <froud> BTW if you feel the need to add subsections just do it
[09:05] <plovs> speaking about authorblurb, where is that located now?
[09:08] <froud> He is an example:
[09:08] <froud> <chapter id="chp-admin-serv-hetnet">
[09:08] <froud>             <title>Heterogeneous Networks</title>
[09:08] <froud>             <authorblurb><para>Your Name</para></authorblurb>
[09:08] <froud>             <para>text</para>
[09:08] <froud>         </chapter>
[09:13] <froud> plovs, there is no authorblurb at present, I am using it as a temp solution for now, just to record who is doing what
[09:13] <froud> However, it is possible for authors to add authorblurbs to the authorgroup
[09:14] <froud> however, authorblurb is depressed by default on most systems and will not show
[09:15] <plovs> maybe it is a good idea to make an external autoblurb? and then include it &autoblurb; ?
[09:15] <froud> it does show in Yelp
[09:16] <froud> you mean like one for each author
[09:16] <froud> &blurb-plov; &blurb-froud;
[09:16] <froud> Is this waht you mean
[09:16] <plovs> maybe one for each document, quick, admin, etc
[09:17] <froud> I dont understand
[09:18] <plovs> make it just like &copyright; &disclaimer; &legalnotice; &publisher; 
[09:18] <froud> Oh I c
[09:18] <froud> so then it is better to do that with author
[09:18] <plovs> yeah
[09:19] <froud> like this

[09:19] <froud>                 <firstname>Sean</firstname>
[09:19] <froud>                 <surname>Wheller</surname>
[09:19] <froud>                 <authorblurb>
[09:19] <froud>                     <para>A good tool</para>
[09:19] <froud>                 </authorblurb>
[09:19] <froud>                 <!-- <email>sean@inwords.co.za</email> -->
[09:19] <froud>             </author>
[09:20] <froud> The <authorgroup>&abc; &efg, &hij; </authorgroup>
[09:20] <plovs> yes, and the parts you are working on
[09:20] <froud> This will enable a more modular approach to author management
[09:20] <plovs> i love modular, i dislike code-duplication
[09:20] <froud> Hmm, I see you want to collect information from the doc body and add the list in the authorblurb
[09:21] <froud> that's a good idea, let me see how I can make it dynamic
[09:21] <plovs> btw what did you mean with Heterogeneous networks? installing or administring?
[09:21] <plovs> adminning? what is the real word?
[09:22] <froud> A general intoduction to how Ubuntu works in a Hetrogeneuous network
[09:22] <froud> What can it talk?
[09:22] <froud> what does it have
[09:22] <froud> Samba, AppleTalk
[09:22] <froud> IPX/SPX
[09:22] <froud> etc
[09:24] <plovs> this would be an intro to further explanation later then, how to use ubuntu with: samba active directory etc, do i understand that correctly?
[09:25] <froud> yes it needs an overview to collect it together
[09:25] <froud> for admins we dont need to explain what hetrogeneous networks are
[09:25] <froud> just how Ubuntu fits in
[09:26] <froud> I assume net admins know what hetrogen networks are
[09:26] <froud> I am working on a document spec that will define everything about the admin guide
[09:54] <froud> plovs, do svn up look in admin guide and tell me if this is what you meant
[10:02] <froud> grrr. yelp is a bunch of %$#@
[10:07] <froud> I vote we axe yelp
[10:07] <plovs> froud: voted down, sorry
[10:07] <plovs> :-)
[10:08] <plovs> do you use the latest yelp?
[10:08] <froud> plovs, problem
[10:08] <froud> if you work on multiple books
[10:08] <froud> your authorblurb will have references to each of them
[10:08] <plovs> i actually like chm, but that runs on the wrong platform ;-)
[10:09] <plovs> froud: in svn what do i do with a conflict? i tried to commit, but you committed already
[10:09] <froud> do you have kdiff3
[10:09] <froud> or some other three diff tool
[10:10] <plovs> yes (dif)
[10:10] <froud> just use it to resolve the conflict
[10:10] <froud> 3-way
[10:10] <plovs> so do a dif and patch?
[10:10] <froud> no
[10:10] <froud> you need to examine my changes and yours
[10:11] <froud> resolve the conflict and then commit
[10:11] <plovs> what i did before is mv <myfile>, svn up, dif <yourfile> <myfile> > guide.dif, patch <yourfile> < guide.dif
[10:12] <plovs> but that's a lot of steps, for something really basic
[10:12] <froud> ok that's lots of steps
[10:12] <froud> you under gui now
[10:12] <froud> install a 3-way diff
[10:12] <froud> and eSvn
[10:13] <froud> anyway if your method resolves it then no problem
[10:13] <froud> yelp is so limiting
[10:14] <plovs> installing
[10:15] <plovs> not so many people have tried to push the limits of yelp, if we write a good manual and then complain, we will be able to get the yelp people to add features
[10:16] <froud> I speak to Shaum about it on regular basis
[10:16] <froud> but they face problems
[10:16] <froud> they need buy-in from distros and author groups
[10:16] <froud> only then can they satndardize certain functions
[10:17] <froud> until then its broke
[10:17] <froud> the problem is that docbook is not gnome specific
[10:17] <froud> but yelp is
[10:18] <froud> in implimenting docbook under yelp the gnome project induced yelp and gnome specific features
[10:18] <plovs> they need to figure out what they want, a docbook viewer is not rocket-science
[10:18] <froud> not good
[10:18] <plovs> btw your adminguide doesn't work in yelp
[10:19] <froud> It works in mine :-0
[10:19] <froud> what errors do you get
[10:20] <froud> do an svn up and try it again
[10:20] <froud> " docbook viewer is not rocket-science" actually it is
[10:21] <froud> tell me the errors you yet
[10:23] <plovs> must have been a sun-flare, now it works
[10:24] <froud> Ok now look under title page
[10:24] <froud> look under my name
[10:24] <froud> how doeees the formatting look
[10:25] <froud> do you see "How to use this book" in BIG LETTERS
[10:26] <froud> even simple xref's present a problem for yelp
[10:26] <froud> grrrr
[10:27] <plovs> hmmm, not to upset you even more but I see neither a title-page nor your name anywhare
[10:27] <plovs> brb
[10:27] <froud> on what version r you
[10:28] <froud> Yelp is just to erratic
[10:29] <froud> more flexible and less lockin
[10:31] <froud> plovs, ?
[10:32] <froud> look under contents, and click "About this book"
[10:34] <plovs> ok, back
[10:35] <froud> read above
[10:35] <plovs> yelp 2.9.2, the one with bookmarks
[10:35] <froud> great toy, but does not help
[10:37] <plovs> Unmatched element: simpara and index
[10:38] <froud> yes yelp does not support many elements
[10:38] <froud> indexes, glossary and biliographies dont work
[10:38] <froud> look under contents and click "About this book"
[10:38] <plovs> so all the seious stuff is not (yet) there
[10:39] <froud> which mean it is not yet mature enough for serious production environments
[10:39] <plovs> The Uniform Resource Identifier file:///home/plovs/SVN/faq/trunk/adminguide/x-yelp-titlepage is invalid or does not point to an actual file.
[10:40] <froud> but you do have this in the document
[10:40] <froud> and I see it on earlier versions
[10:41] <froud> how can one be expected to work with a tool that depeciates stuff like this
[10:41] <froud> IMHO it would be better to focus on plain old HTML/XHTML that way it stays stable
[10:44] <froud> and remain compatible with all desktops Ubuntu may ship inthe furture
[10:45] <plovs> not using yelp seems rather sad, then we might just as well remove the whole app if the documentation does not use it
[10:46] <froud> while I appreciate that Ubuntu is at present using a GNOME desktop, I dont think it wise for the doc team to assume this will be the norm forever. I am certain we will have a number of desktops.
[10:47] <froud> maintaining nuances between them in the documents will become a big overhead unless we remain neutral in our base src
[10:47] <froud> I ask myself the following questions in this dilema
[10:48] <froud> 1. What is the purpose of the docs?
[10:48] <plovs> i suppose yelp will catch up, we just need to make good docs that need those features
[10:48] <froud> 2. Does the audience really care how it is presented with what tool?
[10:49] <froud> I think people just want docs that are accessible with their desktop of choice
[10:49] <froud> they dont care about yelp or KHelpCenter
[10:50] <froud> for all they care you can use the default system web browser
[10:50] <froud> doe any of this make sense to you?
[10:50] <froud> or am I just in my own world as usual?
[10:50] <plovs> yes, i just like the idea of a good help system
[10:50] <plovs> and i like the idea of yelp
[10:51] <plovs> better then using a browser
[10:51] <froud> yelp does not make or break the help system
[10:51] <froud> the content and its organization is what makes a good help system
[10:52] <froud> underneath yelp is firefox
[10:53] <plovs> i still think you should either use the help system or dump it having two (or more) help-systems is bad imho
[10:53] <plovs> either use a browser for verything or for nothing
[10:54] <froud> well we cant mandate that for vendors
[10:54] <plovs> a small local web-server that serves man-pages would already do
[10:54] <froud> yes
[10:54] <froud> put it on a port
[10:55] <froud> use dig for search etc
[10:55] <froud> you can still have a tree nav toc on the right
[10:55] <froud> or left
[10:56] <froud> my thinking is that the help system should be a web application under which you can easily plug in docs
[10:57] <froud> you can deploy it on the localhost or on a central server in the organization
[10:57] <plovs> that might not be a popular idea as it dumps the whole gnome-framework
[10:57] <froud> what do you mean
[10:57] <plovs> i personally just want something that works (tm)
[10:58] <froud> yes,    but we have to maintain it
[10:58] <plovs> it would mean dumping yelp and the underlying system
[10:58] <froud> for it to "Just Work"
[10:58] <froud> is that a big loss
[10:58] <plovs> it's good we work in docbook, at least we are ok, no matter what
[10:58] <plovs> ok, my wife pulls me away from the computer, brb
[10:58] <froud> will people still have access to the docs
[10:59] <froud> Ah ha know the problem
[10:59] <froud> c ya
[11:48] <plovs> ok, back from lunch
[11:50] <plovs> froud: this shaun does he do irc?
[11:51] <plovs> we might ask him about the plans for yelp and what is and what isn't supported
[11:52] <froud> He is on the GNOME docs channel
[11:52] <froud> but he does not have solutions to all our problems
[11:53] <froud> what I prose is to use HTML/XHTML for now since this does not exclude ffffffuture use of yelp, when it is able to handle the capabilities we want and need.
[11:53] <froud> See my latest written works in the mailing list :-)
[11:54] <plovs> ok, readin list ...
[11:58] <plovs> cu
[01:21] <plovs> ok, back
[01:32] <plovs> hi guys
[01:57] <skyrider> hi guys
[02:00] <skyrider> I've already asked this question few days ago but nobody replied since then so I'll repeat my question.
[02:00] <skyrider> What is the reason to have two pages in wiki about Hoary release shedule?
[02:01] <skyrider> I'm talking about http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryReleaseSchedule and http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryHedgehogReleaseSchedule
[02:01] <skyrider> HoaryHedgehogReleaseSchedule looks like obsolete version of HoaryReleaseSchedule page
[02:02] <skyrider> why it still don't deleted?
[02:09] <plovs> skyrider: let me take a look
[02:10] <skyrider> plovs: ok
[02:12] <plovs> skyrider: ok, i asked the owner of the pages
[02:13] <skyrider> plovs: ok. thanks!
[02:13] <plovs> skyrider: np
[02:28] <enrico> I'm in Taipei at the moment, will be back in a couple of days
[02:29] <enrico> I hoped to have network more often here
[02:29] <enrico> just gave a talk about custom debians
[02:33] <sivang> enrico: hi!!!
[02:53] <hornbeck> enrico: you around?
[03:01] <enrico> hornbeck: yes
[03:02] <hornbeck> hey, there you are
[03:02] <hornbeck> I just sent you a email
[03:05] <enrico> hornbeck: checking mail now
[03:05] <hornbeck> ok
[03:08] <enrico> hornbeck: writing to elmo over IRC now
[03:09] <hornbeck> ok
[03:13] <enrico> hornbeck: we agreed that in a couple of days we'll plan a move with a scheduled downtime advertised with one or two days advance
[03:13] <hornbeck> ok
[03:13] <hornbeck> that sounds good to me
[03:13] <enrico> hornbeck: I'm in Taipei at the moment, I'll get back to my gf house in a couple of days, that's why the 2 days
[03:13] <hornbeck> thats fine
[03:14] <hornbeck> I just don't want anything I do to affect you guys
[03:14] <enrico> Hope we'll manage quickly
[03:14] <enrico> Well, you have your life after all
[03:14] <hornbeck> I am sure we will
[03:14] <hornbeck> :-)
[03:14] <enrico> time is over now.  Disconnecting....
[03:14] <hornbeck> me to
[11:40] <sivang> hey froud