Heterogeneous Networks

=== du2br [nobody@du2br.user] has joined #ubuntu-doc === du2br [nobody@du2br.user] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jiyuu0 [~jiyuu0@203.106.27.1] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud [~sean@ndn-165-132-43.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:47] morning all [06:47] froud: you're early! [07:37] plovs, hi, sorry, yes. School is back so I must take kids. [07:40] African greetings === froud steps out for awhile. I'll be back. [08:23] Yo dudes, does anyone other than plovs and I read and respond to messages on the list? [08:26] I've been making proposals and requesting comment on a number of issues but people just dont seem to respond. Now some will say silence is consent, but geeze on virtually every item proposed or requested, people dont answer. I wonder if I am part of a comunity project or not :-) [08:46] morning, dropping in during work for a sec [08:46] morning plovs [08:46] froud: what do you think for the admin guide, the idea with the boot-disk was small work-scenarios, goal,tools,howto,notes,extra info [08:47] thos steps as a basic outline, what do you think? [08:48] I answered on list. Yes I think it can work as a basic framework [08:48] It is short and to the point [08:48] something admins like [08:48] We will however need to test it on other topics [08:49] but in general, YES, VERY GOOD [08:53] plovs, do you know which sections you want to do in the books [08:53] whatever, as long as I know what I have to do I can write about it [08:53] let me see ... [08:54] Ok well I think it best to decide and mark it as per my proposal [08:54] hopefully others will do the same [08:54] It would help for the Owners List [08:54] i can start with servers [08:54] That's a big section [08:55] do you want to be more specific [08:55] I suggest taking small parts you want to do [08:55] i'll write basic installation for all the servers, eg apt-get install ... [08:56] then we have a start, for more specific stuff, eg apache + php + etc, we need subtopics, i won't do those [08:56] so you are talking only about admin guide now [08:56] yes [08:56] userguide, quick-guide, i don't know what to with them still [08:57] OK, this is a general problem I need to work a solution [08:57] I will propose shortly [08:58] for now please add your authorblurb to the sectX's you will be prepared to do [08:58] that will be a start [08:58] I will do the same [08:58] in some cases we may choose the same items [08:58] in these situations we can choose to collaborate [08:59] to help one another I suggest we post information about completed its to the list and request people to check them [08:59] for this reason I suggest work small and commit often [09:00] For example you may take the section "Heterogeneous Networks" [09:00] when you have finished it, commit and let it be known on the list [09:00] BTW if you feel the need to add subsections just do it [09:05] speaking about authorblurb, where is that located now? [09:08] He is an example: [09:08] [09:08] Heterogeneous Networks [09:08] Your Name [09:08] text [09:08] [09:13] plovs, there is no authorblurb at present, I am using it as a temp solution for now, just to record who is doing what [09:13] However, it is possible for authors to add authorblurbs to the authorgroup [09:14] however, authorblurb is depressed by default on most systems and will not show [09:15] maybe it is a good idea to make an external autoblurb? and then include it &autoblurb; ? [09:15] it does show in Yelp [09:16] you mean like one for each author [09:16] &blurb-plov; &blurb-froud; [09:16] Is this waht you mean [09:16] maybe one for each document, quick, admin, etc [09:17] I dont understand [09:18] make it just like ©right; &disclaimer; &legalnotice; &publisher; [09:18] Oh I c [09:18] so then it is better to do that with author [09:18] yeah [09:19] like this [09:19] [09:19] Sean [09:19] Wheller [09:19] [09:19] A good tool [09:19] [09:19] [09:19] [09:20] The &abc; &efg, &hij; [09:20] yes, and the parts you are working on [09:20] This will enable a more modular approach to author management [09:20] i love modular, i dislike code-duplication [09:20] Hmm, I see you want to collect information from the doc body and add the list in the authorblurb [09:21] that's a good idea, let me see how I can make it dynamic [09:21] btw what did you mean with Heterogeneous networks? installing or administring? [09:21] adminning? what is the real word? [09:22] A general intoduction to how Ubuntu works in a Hetrogeneuous network [09:22] What can it talk? [09:22] what does it have [09:22] Samba, AppleTalk [09:22] IPX/SPX [09:22] etc [09:24] this would be an intro to further explanation later then, how to use ubuntu with: samba active directory etc, do i understand that correctly? [09:25] yes it needs an overview to collect it together [09:25] for admins we dont need to explain what hetrogeneous networks are [09:25] just how Ubuntu fits in [09:26] I assume net admins know what hetrogen networks are [09:26] I am working on a document spec that will define everything about the admin guide [09:54] plovs, do svn up look in admin guide and tell me if this is what you meant [10:02] grrr. yelp is a bunch of %$#@ [10:07] I vote we axe yelp [10:07] froud: voted down, sorry [10:07] :-) [10:08] do you use the latest yelp? [10:08] plovs, problem [10:08] if you work on multiple books [10:08] your authorblurb will have references to each of them [10:08] i actually like chm, but that runs on the wrong platform ;-) [10:09] froud: in svn what do i do with a conflict? i tried to commit, but you committed already [10:09] do you have kdiff3 [10:09] or some other three diff tool [10:10] yes (dif) [10:10] just use it to resolve the conflict [10:10] 3-way [10:10] so do a dif and patch? [10:10] no [10:10] you need to examine my changes and yours [10:11] resolve the conflict and then commit [10:11] what i did before is mv , svn up, dif > guide.dif, patch < guide.dif [10:12] but that's a lot of steps, for something really basic [10:12] ok that's lots of steps [10:12] you under gui now [10:12] install a 3-way diff [10:12] and eSvn [10:13] anyway if your method resolves it then no problem [10:13] yelp is so limiting [10:14] installing [10:15] not so many people have tried to push the limits of yelp, if we write a good manual and then complain, we will be able to get the yelp people to add features [10:16] I speak to Shaum about it on regular basis [10:16] but they face problems [10:16] they need buy-in from distros and author groups [10:16] only then can they satndardize certain functions [10:17] until then its broke [10:17] the problem is that docbook is not gnome specific [10:17] but yelp is [10:18] in implimenting docbook under yelp the gnome project induced yelp and gnome specific features [10:18] they need to figure out what they want, a docbook viewer is not rocket-science [10:18] not good [10:18] btw your adminguide doesn't work in yelp [10:19] It works in mine :-0 [10:19] what errors do you get [10:20] do an svn up and try it again [10:20] " docbook viewer is not rocket-science" actually it is [10:21] tell me the errors you yet === froud notes that Oracle could layoff 6000 people. WOW http://www.forbes.com/home/markets/2005/01/10/0110automarketscan11.html [10:23] must have been a sun-flare, now it works [10:24] Ok now look under title page [10:24] look under my name [10:24] how doeees the formatting look [10:25] do you see "How to use this book" in BIG LETTERS [10:26] even simple xref's present a problem for yelp [10:26] grrrr [10:27] hmmm, not to upset you even more but I see neither a title-page nor your name anywhare [10:27] brb [10:27] on what version r you === froud notes "IBM Offers 500 Patents for Open-Source Use" [10:28] Yelp is just to erratic === froud thinks good old chunked HTML/XHTML is better [10:29] more flexible and less lockin [10:31] plovs, ? [10:32] look under contents, and click "About this book" [10:34] ok, back [10:35] read above [10:35] yelp 2.9.2, the one with bookmarks [10:35] great toy, but does not help [10:37] Unmatched element: simpara and index [10:38] yes yelp does not support many elements [10:38] indexes, glossary and biliographies dont work [10:38] look under contents and click "About this book" [10:38] so all the seious stuff is not (yet) there [10:39] which mean it is not yet mature enough for serious production environments [10:39] The Uniform Resource Identifier file:///home/plovs/SVN/faq/trunk/adminguide/x-yelp-titlepage is invalid or does not point to an actual file. [10:40] but you do have this in the document [10:40] and I see it on earlier versions [10:41] how can one be expected to work with a tool that depeciates stuff like this [10:41] IMHO it would be better to focus on plain old HTML/XHTML that way it stays stable [10:44] and remain compatible with all desktops Ubuntu may ship inthe furture [10:45] not using yelp seems rather sad, then we might just as well remove the whole app if the documentation does not use it [10:46] while I appreciate that Ubuntu is at present using a GNOME desktop, I dont think it wise for the doc team to assume this will be the norm forever. I am certain we will have a number of desktops. [10:47] maintaining nuances between them in the documents will become a big overhead unless we remain neutral in our base src [10:47] I ask myself the following questions in this dilema [10:48] 1. What is the purpose of the docs? [10:48] i suppose yelp will catch up, we just need to make good docs that need those features [10:48] 2. Does the audience really care how it is presented with what tool? [10:49] I think people just want docs that are accessible with their desktop of choice [10:49] they dont care about yelp or KHelpCenter [10:50] for all they care you can use the default system web browser [10:50] doe any of this make sense to you? [10:50] or am I just in my own world as usual? [10:50] yes, i just like the idea of a good help system [10:50] and i like the idea of yelp [10:51] better then using a browser [10:51] yelp does not make or break the help system [10:51] the content and its organization is what makes a good help system [10:52] underneath yelp is firefox [10:53] i still think you should either use the help system or dump it having two (or more) help-systems is bad imho [10:53] either use a browser for verything or for nothing [10:54] well we cant mandate that for vendors [10:54] a small local web-server that serves man-pages would already do [10:54] yes [10:54] put it on a port [10:55] use dig for search etc [10:55] you can still have a tree nav toc on the right [10:55] or left [10:56] my thinking is that the help system should be a web application under which you can easily plug in docs [10:57] you can deploy it on the localhost or on a central server in the organization [10:57] that might not be a popular idea as it dumps the whole gnome-framework [10:57] what do you mean [10:57] i personally just want something that works (tm) [10:58] yes, but we have to maintain it [10:58] it would mean dumping yelp and the underlying system [10:58] for it to "Just Work" [10:58] is that a big loss [10:58] it's good we work in docbook, at least we are ok, no matter what [10:58] ok, my wife pulls me away from the computer, brb [10:58] will people still have access to the docs [10:59] Ah ha know the problem [10:59] c ya [11:48] ok, back from lunch [11:50] froud: this shaun does he do irc? [11:51] we might ask him about the plans for yelp and what is and what isn't supported [11:52] He is on the GNOME docs channel [11:52] but he does not have solutions to all our problems [11:53] what I prose is to use HTML/XHTML for now since this does not exclude ffffffuture use of yelp, when it is able to handle the capabilities we want and need. [11:53] See my latest written works in the mailing list :-) [11:54] ok, readin list ... === froud has to collect a freind from the airport. c u l8tr. [11:58] cu [01:21] ok, back === plovs [~plovs@62.84.21.44] has joined #ubuntu-doc === enrico [~enrico@enrico.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-doc === skyrider [~skyrider@195.128.178.150] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:32] hi guys === skyrider [~skyrider@195.128.178.150] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:57] hi guys [02:00] I've already asked this question few days ago but nobody replied since then so I'll repeat my question. [02:00] What is the reason to have two pages in wiki about Hoary release shedule? [02:01] I'm talking about http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryReleaseSchedule and http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryHedgehogReleaseSchedule [02:01] HoaryHedgehogReleaseSchedule looks like obsolete version of HoaryReleaseSchedule page [02:02] why it still don't deleted? [02:09] skyrider: let me take a look [02:10] plovs: ok [02:12] skyrider: ok, i asked the owner of the pages [02:13] plovs: ok. thanks! [02:13] skyrider: np === enrico says hi to people [02:28] I'm in Taipei at the moment, will be back in a couple of days [02:29] I hoped to have network more often here [02:29] just gave a talk about custom debians [02:33] enrico: hi!!! === hornbeck [~hornbeck@adsl-69-155-172-150.dsl.okcyok.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:53] enrico: you around? [03:01] hornbeck: yes [03:02] hey, there you are [03:02] I just sent you a email === sivang [~sivang@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:05] hornbeck: checking mail now [03:05] ok === sivang [sivan@muse.19inch.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:08] hornbeck: writing to elmo over IRC now [03:09] ok === sivang [sivan@muse.19inch.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:13] hornbeck: we agreed that in a couple of days we'll plan a move with a scheduled downtime advertised with one or two days advance [03:13] ok [03:13] that sounds good to me [03:13] hornbeck: I'm in Taipei at the moment, I'll get back to my gf house in a couple of days, that's why the 2 days [03:13] thats fine [03:14] I just don't want anything I do to affect you guys [03:14] Hope we'll manage quickly [03:14] Well, you have your life after all [03:14] I am sure we will [03:14] :-) [03:14] time is over now. Disconnecting.... [03:14] me to === jiyuu0 [~jiyuu0@219.95.59.169] has joined #ubuntu-doc === johnlevin_ [~johnlevin@dsl-80-42-106-115.access.uk.tiscali.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === plovs [~plovs@62.84.21.44] has joined #ubuntu-doc === sivang [sivan@muse.19inch.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mako [mako@micha.hampshire.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jiyuu0 [~jiyuu0@219.95.59.169] has joined #ubuntu-doc === sivang [~sivang@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud [~sean@ndn-165-132-43.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:40] hey froud