=== pitti [~martin@195.227.105.180] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pitti [~martin@195.227.105.180] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === Simira [rpGirl@m146i.studby.ntnu.no] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === doko [doko@dsl-082-082-191-140.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pitti [~martin@195.227.105.180] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === fabbione [~fabbione@port49.ds1-van.adsl.cybercity.dk] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === mvo_ [~egon@ip181.135.1511I-CUD12K-01.ish.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === fabbione [~fabbione@port49.ds1-van.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dilinger [dilinger@mouth.voxel.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Keybuk [scott@descent.netsplit.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === johnlevin [~johnlevin@dsl-80-42-106-74.access.uk.tiscali.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mdz [~mdz@69-167-148-207.vnnyca.adelphia.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ogra_ [~ogra@s217-115-139-139.colo.hosteurope.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [04:58] mdz: reading scrollback, looks like someone wants bootfloppy support - maybe for the next TB agenda??? === lamont ducks === seb128 [~seb128@ANancy-151-1-30-146.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [04:59] lamont: see /topic :-P === sivang [sivan@muse.19inch.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:00] Kamion, mako, elmo, sabdfl: time [05:00] here === mvo_ waves [05:00] haven't seen mako yet today [05:01] mdz: lol [05:01] calling mako === sivang waves back [05:02] mako says he is on his way === Kamion sends nudges in the directions of sabdfl and elmo [05:02] hi [05:03] opi's first on the agenda; do we have him [05:03] ? [05:03] no, we don't [05:03] not in #ubuntu either [05:04] do i have to add myself to the agenda, or is approval of new members/maintainers a standard proc for the meeting ? === silbs [~sbsm0084@host217-37-231-28.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:04] ogra_: put yourself on the agenda [05:04] ok :) [05:05] new maintainers are a fairly standard part of the agenda, but please put it there explicitly [05:05] (as in, NM in general) [05:06] so.. sabdfl and elmo === amu [~amu@amu.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:06] I pinged them on #canonical, no reply yet [05:06] 2/4 is a quorum, let's get going [05:06] should i call sabdfl? [05:06] i.e., has anyone else called mark? [05:07] not me [05:07] added :) [05:07] alright. i'm calling [05:07] silbs might be in shouting distance, though, no? [05:09] I'll phone elmo [05:09] he's on his way [05:09] 2 minutes === sabdfl [~mark@host217-37-231-28.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:09] or much less than 2 minutes [05:09] :) [05:09] hi all [05:10] elmo's coming [05:10] hey sabdfl [05:10] hi sabdfl === elmo [~james@83-216-141-215.jamest298.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:10] hi [05:10] 4 for 4 [05:10] ok, quorate [05:10] bam [05:10] leaders! [05:10] of the free world! [05:10] first item is Polish community leader [05:11] is emil here? [05:11] evidently not [05:11] he's "opi" on IRC I believe, but can't see him around [05:11] i've emailed or talked thim almost every day this week, but i can't find him now [05:11] 16:11 -!- opi: No such nick/channel [05:11] we should add a note to the agenda page [05:12] to the effect that if you add an agenda item, you ought to show up to the meeting ;-) [05:12] what do we want to establish before appointing a new country lead [05:12] martijn? smurfix? [05:12] I told people to Be There [05:12] hmm, abelli is missing too, he's the second tpoic... [05:12] mdz: done [05:12] There are a couple of wiki pages about this already. [05:13] Suggestions for improvements welcome [05:13] (notably CountryTeamHowto) [05:13] is it necessary to have the CC approve country team leads? [05:13] mako and smurfix are the nominated contacts in CountryTeam [05:13] or could smurfix just liase with them directly? [05:13] right, i've talked to everyone on the agneda about this [05:14] for new maintainers we generally whip around and say "do we know this person can handle it" [05:14] what's the drill for country team leads? [05:14] country team leads are supposed to be community interfaces/liaisons [05:14] they need to be active in the community [05:14] and in their country [05:15] so I think we at the very least need to know who they are, and ideally arrange that there's no disagreement about who the point of contact is [05:15] they will represent Ubuntu to their locality [05:15] as far as i'm concerned, if there's only one person who is keen, and they haven't done anything that makes me uncomfortable, we should just let 'em run at it [05:15] and they need to have at least run things by smurf [05:15] mako: agreed [05:15] agree [05:15] and we would help to resolve potential problems [05:15] sabdfl: right, this is nothing we can't undo [05:15] also leaders are responsible for domain registration [05:15] (it seems) [05:16] we've discussed pre-registering a common domain set [05:16] ubuntu-CC.de for instance [05:16] that discussion is very active ATM [05:16] s/de/org/ [05:16] duh ;-) [05:16] i thinks it's probably a bit premature to bring up here :) [05:16] for example, if there is a country where many ubuntu community members are unhappy with the team lead, we would need to be willing to get to the root of the issue and sort it out [05:16] mako: that was going to be my next sentence [05:16] realistically, i think in active leads is going to be the biggest problem [05:16] nl.ubuntu.com would be easy for us to setup internally too [05:16] sabdfl: I have asked about this around, I think we need some sort of official master doc in english for people on country teams wanting to approach their govs for investment of time/code/manpower in advancing the ubuntu localization infrastrucutre. most noteable they ask "Who will we get support from? WHat's the official company stand about it?" sort of questions. [05:17] sivang: good points [05:17] sivang: could you draft up such a document? [05:17] sabdfl: yes, I can. [05:17] great! [05:17] Questions were raised about involvement with businesses on the Country Team UK thread (ubuntu-users) as well [05:18] sabdfl: I would need some info back from you at the other end on of this ofcourse :) [05:18] sivang: i'll read and respond to a draft [05:18] sabdfl: k, tnx. === mako wants to try to poke me back in the direction of the agenda [05:18] smurfix: are you happy with abelli and emil? [05:18] sabdfl: thanks [05:18] johnlevin: seeing as there's no language barrier, it seems to me that a useful UK team would be highly involved in local advocacy; but that's later in the agenda [05:19] i'm happy for smurfix basically to approve new country team leads unless he has reservations, then bring those to us [05:19] johnlevin: i'd love to see a uk country team [05:20] sabdfl: I'm more-or-less "not unhappy". I did emphasize that they should show up here though [05:20] I'd suggest to postpone them === sivang notes that there is some frustration among his country team members, mainly due to rosetta not containing the d-i tranlsation po yet. could this be arranged some time soon? also, there's a need to know what's/where's the latest version of transt. in ros is. people noted they don't want to rework a translation already done by the gnome il tems for example. [05:21] mako, elmo, kamion, are you happy to delegate appointment of country team leads to smurfix for cases where he has no reservations? [05:21] no, absolutely not [05:21] mako: ? [05:21] oh wait [05:21] i mean i have no reservations! [05:21] lol [05:22] Heh [05:22] sorry.. i parsed taht wrong [05:22] yes, i am happy [05:22] sorry about that [05:22] and for cases where he does have reservations, it should come to this council, or something else? [05:22] this council [05:22] also, if there is tension or something that needs sorting out he could bring it here [05:23] kamion, elmo? [05:23] sorry, what powahs would the country team leader have? [05:23] collects the beer money... [05:23] sabdfl: hehe [05:23] but basically, no objections from me [05:23] I'd still put them on the CC agenda though, but default to OK [05:24] good point [05:24] yes, that way it's transparent that we are setting up new teams [05:24] smurfix: just to get that documented and archives somehwere.. [05:24] sure [05:24] *archived [05:24] ok cool [05:25] I have no problems with smurfix approving [05:25] i think that's consensus [05:25] I don't see a proper web page about country teams; is there one? [05:25] (there should be) [05:25] so smurfix will lead, people can be appointed by him, he'll announce new appointments to the cc on our agenda [05:25] mdz: wiki/CountryTeams [05:25] smurfix: thanks for taking this on, it's going to be a big part of 2005 for us [05:25] Kamion: I think there ought to be a /teams/country/ === mako would move to chua and hikesh to the malaysian team but they're not here either [05:26] wiki pages are invisible to someone who is browsing the site to find information about the project [05:26] mdz: agreed [05:26] also, the new membership process discussed in Mataro needs to be documented [05:26] are the team pages editable or locked? [05:26] we could link to the wiki from /community/teams === jiyuu0 [~jiyuu0@219.95.59.169] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:27] no, mdz is right, new teams are important enough to make the main site [05:27] I think it would be useful to continue to have that on the wiki, since the people doing this stuff usually don't have super website editing powers [05:27] they are all editable as far as I see [05:27] sabdfl: editable [05:27] much of the detail will stay in the wiki where it is more dynamic [05:27] jiyuu0: we're talkinga bout country team and country team leads [05:27] perhaps the top-level teams page should be locked (adding new teams) [05:27] I'm adding some stuff to CTeamLeader atm [05:27] mako, ok [05:27] sabdfl: also, what sort of domain names canonical wants to get a hold of ? for instance, in th .il TLD, ubuntulinux.[org|co] .il are already registered, so is ubuntu.co.il, do we need ubuntu.org.il also? this has come up to me while working out the .il domains... [05:28] jiyuu0: most of the people who were on the agenda today did not show up.. but silbs reminded me that you guys were interested and active in pushing stuff in malaysia [05:28] Kamion: even if the /teams/country/ page links to the wiki for the individual teams, /teams/country/ itself should be a proper part of the top-level nav [05:28] sivang: yes please, and we'll refund any registration costs [05:28] mdz: isnt that enough ? for NM : http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewDevelopersAndMaintainers [05:28] mako, yes... true.. we r currently using ubuntu for our workshops [05:28] Kamion: that's only edited when adding new teams, and will contain information about the process of creating a new team, etc. [05:28] sabdfl: on my way :) [05:28] and promoting it to our students [05:28] mdz: agreed. smurfix could you add a country teams page? [05:29] mdz: alright, that's fine by me certainly === mako nods [05:29] Umm, there are already four pages about various aspects of the country team process [05:29] jiyuu0: would one of you guys like to be a Malaysian country team leader? [05:29] I'm unsure what you think is missing [05:29] smurfix: its location within the structure of the site [05:29] smurfix: hold on, will do it [05:30] mako: what about the membership process? [05:30] sabdfl, yes... my partner has written to mako regarding this [05:30] jiyuu0: great! smurfix is overall leader of the country teams [05:31] mdz: i got distracted by cd numbers yesterday and i didn't finish writing that up :-/ [05:31] mako: the notes at NewDevelopersAndMaintainers should be the basis for a new web page describing the process [05:31] ah, ok [05:31] mdz: i've been working on it [05:31] but it's on your list, great [05:31] mdz: i was trying to get it done for this meeting [05:31] ok, so does that basically deal with the first two agenda items? [05:31] sabdfl, i think smurf should be aware too as we email him regarding our activities and plans [05:31] if so, we can move on [05:32] johnlevin: any firther comment on a uk team? [05:32] further, even [05:32] sure [05:32] The question with the UK-CC is, given that so much of the CC Team tasks are to do with language, translation etc, what would it do? [05:33] advocacy [05:33] beer [05:33] I would prefer a GB team since it's the best geographical fit (someone in northern ireland would be more likely to take part in a irish team) [05:33] as I mentioned above, I think much of its activity ought to be in local advocacy [05:33] Riddell: controversial :-) [05:33] johnlevin: it could organise en-gb translation [05:33] en_GB's not really that interesting except to obsessives :) [05:33] Kamion: hehe [05:34] Another question is with geopolitics - with Ireland, Wales (and Welsh) and Scotland [05:34] Kamion: not just because Debian has a slight history of favouring GB spellings anyway === Riddell obsesses [05:34] en_GB@leeds is more entertaining ;-) [05:34] perhaps an England-CC rather than UK or GB? [05:34] you can have a uk/gb team and someone wants to start a welsh team, that can happen too :) [05:34] (cy_GB) [05:34] johnlevin: which is why with KDE I went with a geographical GB not a political UK [05:34] as a souf efrikan i'm not sure of the politics of the uk [05:34] mako, are there procedures to sign up as the country team? what is expected for country team to do? [05:35] jiyuu0: i think hikesh has actually gone over much of this but there are pages on the wiki [05:35] jiyuu0: i guess you must have not been cc'ed on thos emails [05:35] I'd tend to pick UK and let Northern Irish people work out for themselves where they want to be; we're used to doing that anyway [05:35] issues with UK government are still relevant to people in NI [05:35] #include === jiyuu0 checkin wiki [05:36] if we get a good team lead, those sorts of issues shouldn't be too much of a problem [05:36] a country lead might well be responsible for several sub-projects, different languages etc [05:36] for example, if we had a spanish country lead he would need to be friendly to catalan etc, and probably work across several derivative projects [05:37] but i don't that would necessarily preclude a catalan team either [05:37] so a lot of this is up to the character of the team leader [05:37] mako: agreed [05:37] overlapping teams is OK if it's something people have considered and feel is worth going ahead with [05:37] but in the absence of such a person, we definitely want country team leads that are open minded and easy to get on (with), and not overtly political [05:37] on the "what do country teams do" question, advocacy is a big part. teams can help out with having an ubuntu presence at conferences and other events, also helping to coordinate local press coverage, we would like to encourage teams to be creative in terms of advocacy events/programs, [05:38] they can also work with local magazines [05:38] yes, conferences definitely [05:38] just so people know.. i get people emailing at info@* a lot asking about getting involved what i will often do is (a) email smurf it's in a country we have no team or (b) email the country team lead [05:38] for example if they contact magazines and newspapers, we can provide a good backup for them with access to team leaders for interviews, or cd's for magazine covers etc [05:38] Here's another UK problem - given that Canonical is based in the UK, there would be overlap between the CC and the Company. [05:38] good point, I'll add that to CountryTeams [05:39] no prob [05:39] johnlevin: you're not suggesting the Isle of Man team are you? [05:39] johnlevin: there are only about half a dozen of us actually in the UK though === mako nominates Vic Ferns fo the Isle of Man team [05:39] that, and Canonical isn't based in the UK [05:39] (or something, I forget the current number) [05:39] there is also a difference between Canonical advocacy and community advocacy. In many ways the latter is more powerful [05:39] i'd really like a good local team [05:40] john, are you interested in leading it? [05:40] Good - gives the gb CC something to do. [05:40] a local team would relieve Canonical people in the UK of the task of doing this sort of thing :) [05:40] drinking? [05:40] exactly [05:40] sabdfl: yes, but not until February. [05:40] sabdfl: nono, obtaining beer [05:40] sabdfl: how do you feel about coordination with people like the campaign for digital rights in the uk? [05:40] good stuff [05:41] also patent issues [05:41] crypto issues [05:41] they're not quite on-topic, but share a number of interests [05:41] how to get listed on the wiki as a MalaysiaTeam? [05:41] we're likely to have people on board who understand these things well and can help communicate [05:41] (plus one of the CDR cabal's my best mate and lives down the road from me) [05:41] i think opposition to software patents is quite uncontorverisial in the free software world [05:42] jiyuu0: => CountryTeamHowto in the Wiki, it's all there [05:42] we can have ubuntu on press... shouldn't be prob === jiyuu0 checkin [05:42] (... and I'm not typing that information for the umpteenth time ...) [05:42] jiyuu0: coordinate with smurfix + do the wiki. it appears you've just done the frst bit [05:42] There's certainly a lot of digital rights campaigns / organisations in the UK [05:42] didn't we decide that we shouldn't call the country teams "country teams" for geopolitical reasons? [05:42] true [05:42] gar, all the other words are so awkward [05:43] regional teams is about the least bad [05:43] geo team ? [05:43] LOcal COmmunity Teams? === mako would adovcate making teh change if possible [05:43] sivang: local teams is good [05:43] and now is the time to do it [05:43] LoCo? [05:43] hehe [05:43] sabdfl: hehe [05:43] oh god, not country teams, then we'll have the Taiwan thing all over again [05:43] we are ubuntu LoCo's :) [05:43] elmo: the taiwan ____ team is on it's way too [05:44] sabdfl: LoCo sounds a nice acronym to me, also it's a spanish word :) [05:44] Well, I kindof like the term as it is, but OK ;-) [05:44] "neo, this is loco"... [05:44] hehehe [05:44] loco about ubuntu [05:44] ok done [05:44] mdz: exactly [05:44] Do the LoCo motion [05:44] johnlevin: OUCH [05:44] aarrrggh.... [05:44] johnlevin: ah kylie...:) [05:44] sabdfl: your joke just became LAW [05:45] was bendy coming out like this? ;-) [05:45] just say no to bendy [05:45] heheheheh [05:45] most ubuntu names start as jokes [05:45] erm.. .that was keybuk's troll that I took on [05:45] yeah, and I owe him one for it [05:45] (and not the good kind) [05:45] and Malone, is a tribute, to Bugsy Malone right? [05:45] plan on sending monica to birmingham? [05:46] malone is the exception [05:46] or Robert Malone? ;) [05:46] off topic, let's get back [05:46] OK, who'll do a global Country => Loco replacement in the Wiki? [05:46] sabdfl: with a knife in her teeth === mako grins [05:46] smurfix: rename the pages.. put place holders where the old pages were [05:46] smurfix: sounds like your domain ;-) === smurfix can do it [05:46] so agreed, a uk/gb country team would be great === mako nods [05:46] i'm all for it [05:46] johnlevin: would you discuss taking it on post-feb with smurfix? [05:47] mdz: as long as the knife doesn't end up in my back, i'm happy ;-) [05:47] sivang: bugsy [05:47] can we move on [05:47] ? [05:47] MOU [05:47] Masters Of The Universe [05:47] mdz: MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE [05:48] yes [05:48] we really need a free master of the universe clone. It was such a fun game. [05:48] elmo: do we have the ability to allow people to upload to universe only? [05:48] sabdfl: no, but it's a days work [05:48] so, we have solid consensus that we should have a universe maintainer team [05:48] tops === jiyuu0 will create the wiki page... but first time to crash [05:48] Mithrandir: no, we really need a team to think of names that don't start as jokes! :p [05:48] and I'd love to send out an announcement inviting people to join [05:49] jiyuu0: thanks for coming jiyuu0! [05:49] do we need that first? [05:49] Keybuk: hehe [05:49] then we appoint a core team of MOTU, who can approve new maintainers for universe [05:49] but I need a process to tell them about [05:49] without reference to the CC [05:49] night all :) [05:49] will be back [05:49] night jiyuu0 [05:49] "talk to this person" (or "these people") [05:49] night jiyuu0 [05:49] mdz, mako, we can tie the MOTU stuff into the Mataro membership roadmap in time [05:50] I think we need a process for appointing universe maintainers as well -- we don't want universe to decline in quality -- we want it to become better. [05:50] and what about freeze rules and the like - do they apply to the MOTU? === haggai [~halls@i-83-67-20-196.freedom2surf.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:50] Keybuk: *your* jokes in particular? [05:50] other Ubuntu teams have leaders, and I think MOTU should too [05:50] elmo: yes === johnlevin_ [~johnlevin@dsl-80-42-106-115.access.uk.tiscali.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:50] sabdfl: yes [05:50] haggai: thanks for coming [05:50] sabdfl: Masters Of The Universe was yours/mdz ... I'm *not* taking responsibility for it [05:50] sorry - connection dropped [05:50] i had two potential leaders in mind, chris halls (haggai) and christoph haas, because of his mentoring background === mako be very happy with both of them [05:51] I emailed christoph haas, but admittedly not very far in advance, about coming to the meeting [05:51] I wasn't able to reach him in time [05:51] Keybuk: that was my disaster [05:51] mdz: I think he woudl lvoe [05:51] one cocern i have is that we have someone involved with close ties to debian [05:51] mdz: that [05:51] because it's going to involve coordination with debian quite a bit [05:52] both chris and christoph qualify there, I think [05:52] I think it goes without saying that this person should not be a Canonical employee [05:52] both chris and christoph have that i think [05:52] Kamion: right [05:52] Kamion: agreed [05:52] Kamion +1 [05:52] so let's start with them [05:53] perhaps they could easily share the load... [05:53] +1 [05:53] perhaps we should ask them if they want the job? ;-) [05:53] haggai: how do you feel about this? [05:53] yes, this is not a one person job.. universe is "sorta big" === haggai trying to work out what is involves [05:53] it will take 5 or 6 core people just to keep track of maintainers i imagine [05:54] haggai: basically lead universe [05:54] haggai: organizing a group of people to maintain universe, essentially [05:54] - approve uploaders (maintainers) [05:54] - when in freeze, perhaps approve uploads [05:54] that's it for the moment i think, but it's potentially a lot of work [05:55] haggai: there are changes in main that require sweeping changes in universe, sometimes [05:55] yes, seems to be quite a bit of work [05:55] like the python2.4 transition [05:55] and the libflac transition [05:55] both of which are incomplete in universe at this moment [05:55] also merges in universe [05:55] perhaps we should try to gather a larger team to take this on [05:55] it might be daunting for two people :-) [05:55] sabdfl: seems sane [05:55] yes, I don't think I have the time to take on that sort of load [05:56] I think it could easily be the job of haggai/chrish (if they accepted) to put together a team of people big enough to take this on [05:56] OOo and Kubuntu ..and universe? shudder [05:56] I don't think they should be trying to do the whole job themselves; it's at least full-time for two people [05:56] haggai: ouch [05:56] haggai: there will be a lot of overlap between Kubuntu and universe, I imagine [05:56] Kamion: agreed [05:56] but we desperately need a starting point [05:56] so far we have nothing [05:56] i agree with mdz that it would be best if the leader was not a canonical employee, but it might be difficult to get someone to take on the task without some compensation for the time [05:57] haggai: it doesn't require getting the WHOLE of universe right [05:57] just appointing people who care about pieces of it, and getting THOSE right [05:57] the community will expect this, though [05:57] Kubuntu is a big chunk of it [05:57] sabdfl: yes, understood [05:58] how about some bounty or compensation for handling it -- can be difficult to measure success, though. [05:58] haggai: the assumption is that there is a wealth of labour available in the community which needs primarily to be organized and enabled [05:58] azeem: you want in? === mako smells fresh blood [05:58] hell no [05:58] Mithrandir: i don't mind offering some basic compensation for a few hours per day for someone who is reliable and consistently present, and well trusted by the community [05:58] this is a suicide mission :) [05:59] azeem: heh :) [05:59] Just checked log - confirm I'll discuss LoCo GB with Smurfix in Feb [05:59] even if it is a flight to some distant exotic location :-) [05:59] johnlevin_: cool thanks [05:59] sabdfl: hehe [05:59] sabdfl: it would need to be fairly transparent that we are doing it, but I guess that wouldn't be a problem. [05:59] sabdfl: does that include space? ;) [06:00] its mainly just having a fast process for approving unproven maintainers and unleashing them on universe [06:00] fabbione: damn, that was a good call ;-) [06:00] fabbione: moon ? [06:00] Mithrandir: agreed [06:00] ehhe [06:01] it's a little unclear where we have ended up [06:01] to me [06:01] i.e., the person writing the summary [06:01]