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=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz] : Tuesday 25 January 2005 16:00 UTC: Community Council meeting -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda. Tuesday 18 January 2005 1600UTC: Technical Board -- http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda. || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel
fabbionehi *04:52
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zulhey fabbione 04:54
=== lamont_r makes a note to not reschedule holidays onto tuesdays ever again. :-(
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mdzwelcome, everyone04:59
mdztime to get started04:59
mdzhmm, we lost sabdfl05:00
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Keybukquick, let's finish before he gets back! :D05:00
mdzRiddell: are you here?05:00
Riddellshould we wait for sabdfl?05:01
mdzRiddell: so you are currently  a Member?05:01
ograrather commiter05:02
Riddellmdz: I'm currently a member with special privilages to upload to universe05:02
Kamionogra: member's the relevant bit; implies he's passed CC05:02
mdzok, so CC signoff already happened05:02
elmonot for full maintainership05:02
ograKamion: yeah, true05:02
mdzI don't think we need to go back to CC05:02
mdzbut mako has been slack in documenting the process ;-P05:03
elmoerr, yeah we do05:03
elmobecoming a universe person requires sign off from only two CC05:03
elmobecoming a maintainer is meant to require sign off from full CC and TB, AIUI05:03
mdzMember is a community council vote05:03
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sabdflhi all05:04
mdzwelcome back05:04
RiddellI'm working on kubuntu so if kdelibs and other bits go into main it would be useful if I could keep working on them05:05
mdzwe were just arguing about the still-undocumented new membership process05:05
sabdflhmm... i spec'd this out and mailed launchpad and mako05:05
sabdflhappy for it to go onto the wiki for further refinement05:05
sabdflwhat's the question?05:05
ograRiddell for main05:05
mdzit's already in the wiki05:06
mdzit's been refined, and I think it needs to be properly documented on the main website05:06
mdzthe notes are here: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewDevelopersAndMaintainers05:06
mdzthey do not include the modifications for the accelerated universe-only process05:06
mdzwhich Riddell has been through, iirc05:06
sabdflneither did my launchpad spec05:06
ograwasnt that a one timer (riddell aqnd me for universe) ?05:07
sabdfli tihnk we agreed that uploading permission could be component and package05:07
ograat least thats how i understood it05:07
Kamionogra: no, we were trying to define a longer-term process05:07
sabdflso riddell could hapily be given permission to upload to universe *and* specific packages, even if those migrate to main05:07
ograah, ok, so i misunderstood then05:07
sabdflof course, i hope riddell would qualify for main uploading soon too05:07
Riddell(I have been making quite a few mistakes in the packages I've uploaded)05:08
ajmitchwhat is the accelerated universe-only process? I'm sure there are plenty of others (like me) who'd like to do that too 05:08
sabdflajmitch: find two TB / CC / MOTU folks to approve you05:08
sabdflajmitch: sign the CoC05:08
amusabdfl: i would suggest Riddell and give him some help  05:09
ograajmitch: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewDevelopersAndMaintainers05:09
mdzthat wiki page is just a bunch of notes from the BoF05:09
ajmitchogra: isn't that for full membership?05:09
mdzand doesn't document the process as it stands05:09
ogramdz: but gives some hints at least05:09
Riddellogra: masters of universe is not mentioned there05:09
amuso i vouch for Riddell :) 05:10
sabdfli'll second riddell05:11
ograam i allowed to vote ? 05:11
sabdflriddell, can you get a signed CoC to elmo please?05:11
=== fabbione thumbs up
Riddellsabdfl: I sent one to mako last week05:11
elmosabdfl: he's sent a signed CoC to mako05:11
ograif so +1 for riddell05:11
elmosabdfl: he can already upload to universe05:11
elmosabdfl: what we're talking about here is full maintainership05:11
sabdflok rock, thank you05:11
elmoas in, unrestricted uploads to main05:12
ograsabdfl: you approved us both last week ;)05:12
sabdflRiddell: can we stick with universe + specific packages for a while?05:12
Riddellsabdfl: sure05:12
mdzif it comes to a vote today, I'd have to plead insufficient information05:12
sabdflcan we move on?05:12
Riddellanything beginning with a k would be fine05:12
fabbioneRiddell: Kernel?05:12
mdzsabdfl: I think so05:13
lamont_rfabbione: starts with an L05:13
Riddellfabbione: it's called linux in ubuntu05:13
fabbionedamn.. it didn't work :P05:13
sabdflmail storage standardisation05:13
sabdfleveryone read the proposal?05:13
=== lamont_r read it, kind of favors the counter proposal
mdzwho submitted the proposal?05:14
sabdfli did05:14
=== Kamion also favours the counter-proposal; my local experimentation with maildir didn't endear me to it
=== sladen reads it two days ago
fabbionesabdfl: this is a religious topic05:14
sabdflright now we have no answer05:14
sabdfleven removing postfix doesn't solve the deeper problem05:14
sabdflsomeone who WANTS mail delivery doesn't get something that Just Works05:14
lamont_rsabdfl: true.05:14
Kamionmutt is missing several advanced features when forced to use maildir05:14
sabdflit doesn't even Just Work badly05:14
mdzthe informal discussions that we have had on this subject lead to the irrelevance of Unix-style mail in the desktop05:14
pittiI think we should implement the proposal05:14
sabdflubuntu is not jsut for desktops05:15
=== pitti votes for proposal _and_ removing postfix from default install
Kamionhowever, the proposal and counter-proposal seem orthogonal to me05:15
lamont_rsabdfl: and apache2 isn't installed in base05:15
lamont_rKamion: I have to agree with you05:15
sabdfli have had concerns with postfix since before warty05:15
mdzit is straightforward to have SMTP and IMAP services Just Work after installing dovecot and postfix05:15
sabdflthis is orthogonal, as kamion points out05:15
mdzusing a traditional mbox spool05:15
lamont_rI don't think that a crippled postfix install in base is the right answer05:15
lamont_rwhich is what we have in warty05:15
sladenEven maildir were promoted, I like the naming conventions in the proposal.  But not sure about the wider topic of Maildir vs. mbox05:16
sabdfllamont_r: agreed05:16
Kamionnote that shifting to .maildir has implications for NFS-home folks05:16
lamont_rsabdfl: but uncrippling postfix requires taht it ask questions, which is why we got where we are05:16
sabdflthere are three scenarios on a typical box:05:16
sabdfl - no mail needed locally05:16
mdzshifting to delivery-into-homedir has impliications for NFS-home folks05:16
Kamionalthough I do like having SOME kind of maildir naming conventions05:16
sabdfl - basic mail needed locally05:16
sabdfl - sophisticated requirements05:16
Kamionmdz: indeed05:16
sabdflat the moment we address none of these05:17
sabdflKamion: nfs automatically promotes you to sophisticated05:17
lamont_rsabdfl: at the moment, the requirement to not listen on any ports by default gives you only 'no mail needed locally'05:17
sabdflanyone who is doing that can setup the configs to suit them05:17
lamont_rso why do we install a daemon by default?05:17
fabbionesabdfl: we can't address them in a clean way. as soon as we push one way the other 2 will suffer imho05:17
pittiWhat do you think about Keybuk's local-only delivery script? I think that's a nice default installation05:17
sabdflonce again, this does not solve the problem05:17
sladenlamont_r: except root messages -> first user05:17
Kamionsabdfl: yes; but we still have to not gratuitously break things for those folks05:17
lamont_rpitti: I like that05:17
sabdflif i drop three pieces of mail infrastructure down right now it does not just work05:18
pittithen postfix could install as a full MTA by default05:18
lamont_rsladen: that's Keybuk's local delivery thing05:18
lamont_rpitti: yes05:18
sabdfland mbox, while it has some advantages for a single app environment, does not work as well when you have multiple apps all sharing the data05:18
sladenpitti: like that05:18
mdzsabdfl: why doesn't it work?  is there a problem other than postfix being crippled by default?05:18
sabdflKamion: nothing i'm proposing prevents local configuration to suit a sysadmin05:18
Keybukthe trouble is, if you want local mail delivery, you almost certainly have an unwavering love of one particular MDA05:18
sabdflmdz: yes05:19
mdz(with dropping the three pieces together)05:19
Kamionsabdfl: ok05:19
Keybukand you're going to want to remove postfix and install that instead05:19
sabdfli would like it to work as follows05:19
lamont_rKeybuk: iff it's different, of course.05:19
pittimdz: can we agree to discuss both things separately?05:19
sabdfl 1. we agree on format and naming05:19
mdzpitti: I'm trying to determine whether they're closely related05:19
sabdfl 2. we setup ALL our mail components in main (and possibly the bigger ones in universe) to work that way out of the box05:20
pittithing 1: default installation; thing 2: make installations work out of the box05:20
sabdflthis allows someone to remove postfix and install exim and have everything else continue to Work05:20
pittimdz: they are completely orthogonal05:20
sabdflthen remove dovecot and install UW-Imap and have it Just Work05:20
mdzpitti: not if the only reason it doesn't work out of the box is that postfix is crippled05:20
Keybuksabdfl: except if they do that, they have to remove ubuntu-desktop05:20
mdzbecause this works in Debian. trivially.05:20
sabdflthen replace mutt with Evo and have it Just Work05:20
KamionKeybuk: ubuntu-base05:20
pittisabdfl: ++05:20
Keybuksorry, ubuntu-base05:20
sabdfli've been digging into this and the trend towards maildir is clear05:21
mdzKeybuk: which is exactly the right thing, if you think about it05:21
KeybukI agree Maildir is better than mailbox, and if we go Maildir we should use $HOME/Maildir05:21
sabdflKeybuk: have you read the proposal?05:21
mdzbecause if we decide to switch to a different MTA, they don't want it05:21
Keybuksabdfl: yes, I did05:21
sabdfl~/Maildir is b0rked, because it makes something visible that should not be so05:22
Keybuksabdfl: we could ship a default .hidden file so it's not visible in Nautilus05:22
mdzsabdfl: what about ~/Desktop?05:22
sabdflKeybuk: would you like chewing gum with that? <duck>05:22
pittiThe only thing I did not like in the proposal were the dot-file folders05:22
sabdflmdz: remember Oxford? i still feel the same way :-)05:22
Keybuksabdfl: it's better than changing *every* *single* MTA/MDA and MUA to respect ~/.maildir05:22
sabdflKeybuk: trivial changes05:23
sabdfli've done it on my own system and it's straightforward05:23
sladenKeybuk: trivial changes x10 && have everything work Just So   vs.   No changes and have things sometimes work  (I prefer the former)05:23
KeybukI'd rather we didn't ship an MDA in base at all05:24
Keybukand let people who want local delivery install one05:24
sabdflKeybuk: agreed, however, when you install it it should work05:24
pittiKeybuk: but many packages depend on an mta05:24
Keybuksabdfl: oh, most definitely05:24
Keybukwhy doesn't postfix?  I thought Debian policy required both MTAs and MUAs to respect /var/mail/$USER ?05:25
Kamionif we change MUAs to look in ~/.maildir we should arrange that they still look in ~/Maildir if ~/.maildir isn't there05:25
pitticron, for example05:25
sabdflKamion: +105:25
Keybukpitti: trivial to change, make it not mail if there's no sendmail05:25
mdzif postfix doesn't simply work out of the box, we've broken it, because it works in Debian05:25
Keybukit seems to deliver properly here?05:25
lamont_rmdz: no listening leads to a configuration that most people don't want05:25
sladenKeybuk: does your local-delivery provide a sendmail -t work a like?05:26
mdzlamont_r: but local mail delivery works05:26
Keybukif I type "mutt", I get a mailbox full of debconf notes05:26
pittiKeybuk: agreed05:26
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mdzand surely dovecot exports /var/mail by default05:26
elmodovecot does automagic05:27
elmoto try and determine what you're doing05:27
mdzI'd like to consider separately the "make IMAP service just work" and "move to maildir" items05:27
pittiso does anybody actually want an installed default MTA on a desktop?05:27
mdzI don't05:27
lamont_rpitti: no05:27
lamont_rlocal MDA has uses, but no MTA05:28
pittiso the first step seems to be obvious, right?05:28
pittiremove postfix from desktop and uncripple it again05:28
Keybukmdz: yup (just tried it)05:28
Kamionremoving postfix from base without replacing it with anything means no /usr/sbin/sendmail, which I'm fairly sure will break some things during installation05:29
mdzso we seem to have three distinct issues:05:29
Kamion(I might be wrong though)05:29
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mdz1. Standardize on maildir?, 2. Have no MTA in base?, 3. have mail service just work?05:30
pittiKamion: Keybuk's MDA would work for this05:30
mdzbut 3. seems to be a non-issue at present05:30
mdzKamion: we would fix those things05:30
pittimdz: 3 for bendy?05:30
mdzthe most problematic, I think, is LSB05:30
mdzLSB requires an MTA05:30
pittinot just an MDA?05:30
mdzlsb Depends: mail-transport-agent05:31
Kamionpitti: indeed, if it existed :-)05:31
fabbioneKamion: i am pretty sure a bunch of pkgs will fail to install without an MTA05:31
sabdfl3 is an issue05:31
mdzsabdfl: using the standard spool and installing dovecot seems to work fine05:31
sladenany idea what Apple did.  They ship Postfix but I've no idea how it's configured05:31
sabdflmdz: you only use mutt05:31
pittiKeybuk: "existed" -> Keybuk's MDA? it does exist, I already saw it05:31
sabdflhow can we work towards widespread recognition of ubuntu as a mail server if our mail components don't work together?05:31
mdzsabdfl: meaning that you are considering the case where the system is both a mail server and a desktop system where people read mail?05:31
mdzrather than a traditional mail server05:32
mdzis that a case we need to optimize for?05:32
sabdflfundamentally, we should make sure that any combination of components has the best chance of working, and working well05:32
sabdflof course some experts will have preferences and will customise their systems05:32
Keybuksabdfl: have you got any two examples where mail components *don't* work together?  Because it's Debian policy that they must, so if they don't, we've broken it05:32
mdzKeybuk: I think he's talking about, e.g. evolution not reading the spool05:33
KamionDebian policy requires that stuff works together on the inbox, but not on other folders05:33
Keybukhmm, that's actually really really hard to do with Evolution05:34
Keybukbecause Evolution doesn't behave like that05:34
Keybukthe "Local" thing is actually a special thing built-in to evo05:34
sabdflevo does do maildir05:34
Keybukand you really can't persuade it to read /var/mail/$USER instead, without adding an account05:34
Keybuksabdfl: yeah, but *only* if you add an Account05:34
Keybukand that has to have things like a real name, and e-mail address associated with it05:34
ograand a outgoing mailserver05:35
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sladenKeybuk: could those be created by adduser/useradd when copying skel ?  (GECOS and $USER@localhost)05:37
Keybuksladen: meh, it'd involve adding .gconf and stuff05:37
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Keybukwelcome back Lunchpad05:38
mdzsabdfl: should we be considering this in a Hoary context?05:39
sabdflany further comments?05:39
sabdflmdz: your call, bendy for certain05:39
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mdzif I have a choice in the matter, this would be a bendy feature05:40
mdzwe don't seem to have a consensus yet05:40
mdzwe should have more discussion, and if we can do it for hoary, we will05:40
mdzbut I don't think we can commit to it yet05:41
mdzI think that maildir is sane05:41
pittimdz: hmm, at least the default MTA should be settled for Hoary IMHO05:41
lamont_rmdz: is this your #1 & 3?05:41
KeybukI like the idea of moving from /var/mail/$USER to $HOME/Maildir, I don't like the idea of changing that hugely-standard location (though I can see why people might desire it)05:41
mdzpitti: agreed05:41
mdzlamont_r: this is regarding #305:41
mdzI have no concrete argument with maildir as a standard mail store05:42
sabdflok. should we move on to ogra?05:42
lamont_rhow about mdz's #2?05:42
mdzas to whether we should go forth and modify the defaults of all mail software in Ubuntu, that needs to be considered as a release goal in my opinion05:42
sabdflmdz: will need quite a bt of testing to make sure we don't break the GoldenRule05:42
mdz#2 was: should we remove the MTA from base in hoary?05:42
sabdflnew conf only05:43
mdzI think we should05:43
lamont_rmdz: yes it was, and yes we should05:43
mdzanyone else have an opinion or comment?05:43
sabdflKamion: are you happy we can remove postfix and have the installer still work?05:43
KeybukI think no MTA or MDA (not even my bit of Python), fix cron and debconf to only send mail if there's sendmail on the system -- gives server folk free reign to pick an MTA/MDA of choice without conflict05:43
lamont_rthe question that then comes up is: do we provide some thing (ala Keybuk's code), or not?05:43
mdzKeybuk: to be honest, I think mail is the wrong thing for debconf anyway05:44
sabdflKeybuk: does your code have a life outside of birmingham?05:44
mdzKeybuk: we should turn those into the hooks that mvo and I discussed05:44
sabdflin the sense of a community, outside interest, outside use?05:44
pittiKeybuk: two issues: LSB and how people get notified about failed crons and debconf stuff=05:44
Keybukwas written in Matar, and I mailed it to -devel when we first had this discussion :)05:44
sabdflwhat about nullmail and similar local-only mailers?05:45
Keybukpitti: well, the problem there is people don't, because they don't know they even have local mail until they exit ssh or something :p05:45
Kamionsabdfl: I'd only be confident about that with something else providing /usr/sbin/sendmail in its place05:45
Keybuknullmailer is a transfer agent, not a local-delivery agent fwir05:45
mdzthe basis for my opinion about removing it is that having local-only delivery isn't really useful05:45
mdzsendmail.py doesn't really address that05:45
mdzfor Warty, we considered ourselves to be "stuck" with having local mail, because things like cron, at, debconf, etc. relied on it05:46
lamont_rwell, it provides local-only delviery, which we agreed isn't really useful05:46
mdzbut for hoary, we have the freedom to consider those bugs if needed05:46
pittiKeybuk: okay, agreed. But still, LSB cries for sendmail05:46
KamionKeybuk: debconf just calls /usr/bin/mail -s, and tolerates it being absent05:46
Keybukpitti: LSB cries for RPM too, doesn't it?05:46
lamont_rmdz: although I have personal religious issues with all the packages that Depend: exim4 | mail-transport-agent05:47
pittiKeybuk: we have alien :-)05:47
mdzKamion: perfect05:47
pittiKeybuk: it's installed by default just to satisfy LSB, I think05:47
sabdfllamont_r: we can fix 'em ;-)05:47
Kamionalthough I think the GNOME frontend might pop up an error dialog box in that case; we'd want to tweak that05:47
mdzpitti: yes, indirectly05:47
lamont_rsabdfl: thanks.  I'll quote you on that. :-)05:47
azeem"use exim4 or a real MTA"05:47
mdzKamion: if and when the GNOME frontend becomes viable05:47
sabdflmdz: isn't it useful to think that a local mailer allows debconf etc to continue as they currently do, and that if our mail components work together then ANY mail client will immediately see that mail?05:48
mdzso it sounds like at most, we should only need to fix cron and at05:48
mdzand possibly sudo05:48
lamont_rmdz: changing Depends: mta to Recommends: mta???05:49
ograis all this easy addressable on upgrades from warty ?05:49
lamont_rmdz: and then postfix* move from base to ship05:49
mdzsabdfl: I don't have a use case which isn't better satisfied by other functionality in the system05:50
mdzdebconf notes _should_ be blackholed by default unless a sysadmin has configured mail, because they only confuse users05:50
mdzones which are relevant to users should become post-install hooks05:50
mdzogra: warty upgrades would retain postfix05:50
mdzthough the release notes would recommend removing it if it's unused05:50
ograah, ok...but that means i get a crippled hoary then05:50
mdzcron errors _should_ be blackholed unless a sysadmin has configured mail, because those confuse users even more05:50
Kamionerk, users wouldn't get errors from their crontabs?05:51
KamionI think that will be a support burden05:51
sabdflKamion: agreed05:51
Kamion"where did the errors go?" "uh ... nowhere"05:51
mdzI think you guys are talking about a different kind of "user"05:51
KeybukKamion: if users are writing crontabs, they're likely to be the kind of user who's installed an mda of their own05:51
lamont_rogra: how so?  If you prefer a different MTA, then once you upgrade to hoary, installing it (and removing postfix) would not remove ubuntu-base05:51
mdza user who can write crontabs can configure mail, too05:51
KamionI think throwing away errors is a bug, period05:51
Kamionmdz: yes but if they're coming from another system they might not realise that they need to05:52
ograerm, dont cron errors already go in syslog 05:52
jbaileyA user who can write crontabs might not have permission to install mail.05:52
Kamionogra: news to me if they do05:52
mdzjbailey: a user without permission is a client on a server, and needs to ask their admin to set things up05:52
mdzogra: no, they don't05:52
Kamionif we're disabling mail, we need to come up with somewhere else to put cron errors05:52
jbaileyJust refering back to the support nightmare.05:52
mdzKamion: crontab could emit a warning05:52
Kamionsyslog would be fine05:52
mdz"If you want to receive errors, install a mail-transport-agent"05:53
Kamionalthough potentially an information leak, actually05:53
sabdflKamion, jbailey: agreed, I think a minimal local-delivery-only agent is the answer05:53
mdzsyslog would need to be root-only05:53
Kamionsystems like that are such a pain05:53
Kamionyou can never find out what's going on05:53
sladenAFAICT, the wording is ''requires /usr/sbin/sendmail *if* the system provides a sendmail compatible MTA'' ... doesn't say anything about /not/ providing a sendmail-compatible05:53
mdzlocal unix mail is a wart on our desktop, and an annoyance on our server05:53
Kamionmdz: crontab emitting a warning would be a reasonable option05:53
lamont_rcrontab emit a warning05:53
jbaileysladen: Where are you looking?  Chapter 3 seems to say that Table 3-1 lists the Commands and Utilities required to be present on a conforming system.  sendmail is in the list.05:54
sabdflmdz: any serious MTA would replace it, right?05:54
sabdflthis gives us crontab behaviour one would expect05:54
sabdflwe can improve the debconf msgs so they are less confusing, or hook them as you described05:54
mdzsabdfl: a serious unix mail user either wants postfix (and is thwarted by our crippled default configuration) or wants something else anyway05:55
sabdflthwarted? surely it would be a drop-in replacement?05:55
lamont_rsabdfl: crontab would only emit the warning if /usr/sbin/sendmail was absent05:55
mdzthe hook stuff, by the way, is: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/InteractiveUpgradeHooks05:55
Kamionmdz: s/user/admin/; I've never had a need to care what MTA was installed on a system where I was a mere user05:55
lamont_rsabdfl: they expect the config to work, and the crippled default config confuses the hell out of most of the less expert users05:55
Kamionwell, not beyond knowing where the logs were05:55
mdzKamion: agreed05:55
sladenjbailey: that was FHS, I guess LSB ch.3 supersedes that...05:56
mdzmail logs aren't generally readable by unprivileged users anyway05:56
Kamionthat's a bug :-)05:56
ografrom my woody server: /var/log/syslog.0:Jan 18 06:23:01 aleph /USR/SBIN/CRON[24496] : (mail) CMD (  if [ -x /usr/sbin/exim -a -f /etc/exim/exim.conf ] ; then /usr/sbin/exim -q ; fi)05:56
ograit obviously is possible05:56
mdzsabdfl: if they want postfix, postfix is already there (but broken), so they can't just install it05:56
mdzsabdfl: if they want something else, they need to install it anyway05:56
mdzso the presence of a crippled postfix in base doesn't satisfy either use case05:56
sabdflmdz: i was proposing a simple local-only mta after install, and a proper postfix on request05:57
mdzso if it isn't relative to a sysadmin, and isn't relevant to a desktop user, I think we should remove it05:57
mdzsabdfl: that addresses those two problems, yes05:57
sabdfllocal-only being keybuks or similar05:57
mdzbut not the problem of local-only mail in the desktop05:57
mdzwhich is that it grows until it consumes the disk05:57
lamont_rsabdfl: the issue there is that installing _any_ mta would cause ubuntu-base to be removed05:57
mdzlamont_r: if that's the only issue, we can address it05:58
lamont_rmdz: well, one of several, as you note05:58
sabdfllamont_r: even if ubuntu-base depends on something provided by both the local-only and postfix / exim / sendmail?05:58
lamont_rsabdfl: that could work05:58
Kamionmdz: applet that pops up when /var/mail/$USER is non-empty?05:58
KeybukKamion: what would it give you to read it?05:59
Kamionyou could call it "system events" ;)05:59
KamionKeybuk: no idea05:59
Kamiongnome-terminal -e mail ;)05:59
mdzKamion: the messages the user would find in there are entirely cryptic to the average user05:59
=== Keybuk beats Kamion with a spoon
mdzmeaningless and/or frightening05:59
lamont_rKamion: or snarf it into whatever format evo wants it in...05:59
mdzthey should not be presented to the user at all, in my opinion05:59
Keybukmost of the messages we're talking about are really cryptic debconf notes or random output from cron.monthly06:00
mdzif the man page database isn't being regenerated properly, the user doesn't need to hear about that; we just need to fix it06:00
mdzKeybuk: exactly06:00
mdzscrollkeeper blowing up06:00
jbaileyIf they're kept but not displayed, they need to be pruned over time.06:00
mdzdebconf saying "if you modified this random configuration file, you need to do X"06:00
mdzfiles in /lost+found06:00
mdzthese are the only kinds of mail found in the default install06:00
lamont_rno mta by default, crontab emits a warning.06:01
mdzand so it doesn't seem worth the effort of developing tools to help the user see them06:01
Kamionmdz: we'll never find out that we need to fix it, of course06:01
mdzKamion: we will, they won't06:01
Kamionwe won't get bug reports06:01
lamont_rKamion: we will from any users that install an mta06:01
mdzKamion: we won't get bug reports from most users anyway06:01
lamont_rwhich is many06:01
mdzthey would read the message, not understand it, delete it, and move on06:01
lamont_rand we don't want the bug reports from the rest^U06:02
lamont_rok - untrue, and all that06:02
sladenKamion: surely debbugs won't function without an MTA :)06:02
lamont_rsladen: if it hits a web interface it will06:02
lamont_ror deliveres directly to a named host's smtp port06:02
Kamionsladen: surely Ubuntu doesn't use debbugs06:03
lamont_r(yes, either of those is problematic)06:03
lamont_rnot installed on my system...06:03
mdzif we remove postfix from base, we solve: 1) the religious MTA issue, letting a sysadmin choose the one they want, 2) the huge, under-acknowledged bug of the local mail spool growing without bound, 3) potential local security issues in the default install (though mitigated by postfix's design)06:03
=== lamont_r accepts mdz's bone in #3
mdzreplacing it with Keybuk's local-only agent solves #306:04
Kamionmdz: TBH I'd be interested to see a system where it grows without bound more quickly than the rate of attrition to changelog.gz, but yeah06:04
lamont_r4) the number of complaints,etc on #ubuntu about the mta being broken06:04
ogramdz: 5) bend all daemons to write to a central log instead of mailing (to not loose the msgs) ?06:05
lamont_rogra: that's not something we fix, that's somethign that maybe needs to be done06:05
ograubuntu_desktop.log :)06:05
mdzogra: that is a problem to be solved?06:05
Keybukcron seems to already syslog when it starts a cron, should be trivial to also log if it fails06:05
Kamionwe could then apply logrotate to those logs06:05
=== silbs [~sbsm0084@host217-37-231-28.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
Kamionand solve the disk-usage problem06:06
ograKamion: thats the idea :)06:06
sabdflKeybuk: how confident are you in your code for hoary?06:06
=== sivang [~sivang@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
lamont_rugh. is pop-con in desktop?06:06
mdzKeybuk: it could log a message saying "it failed", but not stderr06:06
mdzwhich is fairly pointless06:06
mdzlamont_r: it is, but thom modified it to use HTTP POST06:06
mdzand it's disabled by default anyawy06:07
lamont_rI prefer deleted entirely06:07
lamont_r(mta, not popcon)06:07
mdzbecause a) enabling it by default is a privacy issue, and b) we didn't want to ask an extra question06:07
Keybuksabdfl: *shrug* it's trivial code, it's mostly just Python's standard modules joined together06:07
fabbionetime to change the pix?06:08
mdzchange its diaper?06:08
=== lamont_r thinks he clicked on the wrong spot
ogramdz: its ??06:08
elmoit's his BT ADSL line that keeps spassing out, not the PIX06:08
lamont_rwe should really set him up a proper nat box you know...06:09
fabbionetime to change ADSL?06:09
Keybukfabbione: seems to be a UK-wide problem06:09
Keybukmine's been doing it all day too06:09
fabbioneah ok06:09
lamont_rtime to change countries?06:09
ograKeybuk: no cable in the uk ?06:09
KeybukMark is the only other person I know with the same Efficient-based line06:09
=== sabdfl [~mark@host217-37-231-28.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
sabdflconnection issues06:10
mdzI don't have any real problem with moving to Keybuk's MTA as an incremental improvement06:10
mdzbut it only addresses a small portion of the problem in my opinion06:10
sabdflmy vote is for (1) simple local-only keybuk solution, and (2) MailStorageStandardisation06:10
mdzand it introduces some new ones06:10
mdzsabdfl: do you feel that we should present cron errors and debconf notes to the user by default?06:11
mdzbecause that would seem to be the result of implementing MailStorageStandardisation without doing something to suppress those06:11
sabdflmdz: your call06:12
sabdflyes, if we can make them easy to delete06:12
lamont_rmdz: we could do that for bendy, and ship no-mta for hoary?06:12
mdzand add a "what is all this confusing crap in my mailbox" entry to the FAQ?06:12
sladenonly if you can also present them with a button that says ''click here to let me fix it for you''06:12
sabdflwe should review the most common messages for, erm, friendliness06:13
Kamionit would be easy to merely log debconf notes somewhere rather than shipping them, and I think we should do that06:13
sabdflKamion: +106:13
Kamioner, s/shipping/mailing/06:13
lamont_rKamion: pruning over time?06:13
Kamionlamont_r: logrotate06:13
ogracron as well....06:13
mdzcron is not so straightforward, being multi-user06:13
Kamionroot cron jobs could be logged, and others mailed06:13
mdzideally errors would get written to ~user/.cron/log or something06:13
ogramdz: as i showed before, on woddy it writes to syslog by default06:14
sladenlamont_r: would it be possible to never show the same error twice (eg, if they saw it yesterday, don't show it them again today)06:14
Kamionthat would get rid of the "cron.monthly said stuff I don't care about" problem06:14
sabdflmdz: this one i'd like to make visible :-)06:14
sivangor a "system notification" buddy :)06:14
mdzogra: show me again?06:14
=== mdz gapes
ogra/var/log/syslog.0:Jan 18 06:25:01 aleph /USR/SBIN/CRON[24665] : (root) CMD (test -e /usr/sbin/anacron || run-parts --report /etc/cron.daily)06:14
sabdflwhen it's created, put a baner at the top with instructions06:14
mdzogra: that is not what we are talking about06:14
Kamionogra: I think that's logging the job that got run, not its stderr output06:14
mdzogra: we are talking about when a command fails and outputs an error06:14
mdzcurrently, those are sent via email06:15
sabdflmdz: the reason being, it's something we want the user to notice and are happy for him to delete06:15
ograahh, ok...so bend stdout to /var/log/syslog then06:15
Kamionmdz: it might also be worth getting rid of the "add initial user to /etc/aliases" thing06:15
mdzogra: we discussed some time earlier why that isn't feasible (security)06:15
sladenwhat about a panel-applet that is installed but not enabled by default---right-click + add if required06:15
mdzKamion: leave root mail in root's box?06:15
sivangsladen: my thought exactly06:15
Kamionmdz: yes, you've already made it pretty clear that you don't want the user bothered by it06:15
Kamionand the disk space thing is no worse that way06:16
Kamionplus it's more clearly separated06:16
mdzit's just shuffling the cruft around06:16
ograconfiguring logrotate to rotate /var/mail/root ?06:16
Kamionsure but I think it's a better place for the cruft pending us fixing it06:16
Kamionand easier to find the cruft06:16
mdzogra: please, be serious :-P06:16
sladenI suspect they only message the user is bothered about is ''excessive IDE TimeOuts detected, your disk is shagged''---and that's something that's not reported at the moment anyway06:17
mdzI maintain that there is nothing currently sent via email in the default install that a user (not a sysadmin) should see06:17
Kamionhence let's remove the alias as a simple one-stop guarantee of that, first off06:18
mdzKamion: both root's spool and the user's spool are equally invisible in the desktop06:18
sabdflmdz: if that's the case let's go with kamion's loggin proposal for debconf notes06:18
mdzwe'd need to educate sysadmins to read that log06:19
sivangsladen: so a special "admin only applet" to collect all of those msgs out of the mail spool file...06:19
Keybukmeh, a mail client panel applet ?!06:20
=== Keybuk flees the insanity :p
sabdflsivang, mdz: we could expose that log through Desktop -> Administration -> Logs06:20
mdzconsidering this from a hoary perspective, the biggest bang/buck we get is by removing postfix from base06:20
Keybuksabdfl: we already have Applications -> System Tools -> System Log Viewer06:20
lamont_rmdz: all else sounds rather bendy-timeframe06:20
sabdflKeybuk: right, the debconf stuff could link into that?06:20
ograsabdfl: any log could06:21
Keybuksabdfl: yeah, we make debconf and cron spit to syslog so they appear there06:21
sabdflmdz: i'd like to do the MailStorageStandardisation for at least core apps06:21
mdzKeybuk: the one which helpfully shows only auth.log?06:21
sladenKeybuk: sudo csplit '^From ' /var/mail/root | tail -106:21
Keybukmdz: that's just a silly default06:21
ograwhich should be changed :)06:21
KamionI don't think that syslog is a good place for debconf notes06:21
mdzit's an application in search of a use case06:22
sabdflKeybuk: syslog isn't the right place for that though06:22
sabdflwe need something else06:22
sabdflsystem events?06:22
Keybukwhy isn't syslog the right place?06:22
Kamionthey have a much longer lifetime of potential interest than most stuff in syslog, and are generated much less often06:22
sladenSystem Log Viewer can probably be taught to read other logs by just passing them on the command line?06:22
sabdflalso, they are messages, not lines06:22
Kamionmy syslog is full of junk, debconf notes are only generated on upgrades06:22
mdzwe're running long on time here; is there a reason we need to discuss this during the TB meeting rather than on ubuntu-devel?06:22
KamionI want to be able to go back to the last few upgrades06:22
mdzwe'll get wider feedback there06:22
Keybuksladen: it has a File -> Open menu item06:23
sabdfllet's go on to ogra's proposal06:23
lamont_rmdz: is concensus then that we remove postfix from base?  and do we have consensus on whether or not to provide a default mda?06:23
mdzthe question seems to be, should universe uploaders be able to add new packages to universe?06:24
mdzogra: is that an accurate characterization?06:24
ogranon debian packages06:24
Keybukdon't non-debian packages go into multiverse?06:24
ograselfmade or foreign packaged ones that are not in debian yet06:24
Keybukor am I confused?06:24
lamont_rKeybuk: no06:24
pittiyeah, dbus-1 :-)06:24
mdzKeybuk: no, non-ubuntu-license-compliant packages go there06:24
pittipop up a dialog on a debconf note?06:24
sladenKeybuk: I was under the impression  multiverse  was just non-free stuff06:24
mdzogra: I don't think it's relevant where the packages originate06:25
mdzbesides, new packages from Debian are automatically added anyway06:25
ograas an example i have the graveman package since some weeks on my server, i would like to upload it to have a gtk burning app....06:25
mdzI think that universe uploaders should absolutely be able to upload new packages06:25
ogra...but currently it would involve agreement of jdum or mdz06:25
mdzthey should of course be reviewed before being accepted06:25
ograjdub even06:26
RiddellI have already added one new package to universe and have another one awaiting review06:26
ograso i think there should be a written policy06:26
ograthat also prevents us from someone loading up a "nazi shooter" for instance06:26
mdzogra: what would the policy cover?06:26
sabdflreviewed by?06:26
mdzsabdfl: currently, elmo06:27
mdzwith appeal to others where appropriate06:27
jbaileyWhat happens when a new universe package conflicts a new Debian package?06:27
sabdfllet elmo make the licence call on universe vs multiverse, for one06:27
mdz(security review by pitti, etc.)06:27
ograi would like to have it in a way that only critical things steal your time mdz06:27
ograor the others...06:27
mdzogra: my position is that anyone with upload privileges should be able to submit new packages for review06:27
sabdflhow can we reduce the impact on pitti/mdz/elmo?06:27
ograthts my point sabdfl :)06:28
mdzI don't think I need to be involved at all06:28
pittiwell, we talk about universe packages, right?06:28
elmomdz: i think we should concentrate on security reviewing main first?06:28
ograpitti: yup06:28
mdzelmo: yes06:28
pittiso I don't think we need an overly extensive review06:28
mdzelmo: I meant in the context of "this looks fishy to me, pitti should look at it first"06:28
mdzelmo: you'll shout if you're inundated with packages and we need to distribute that duty more, right?06:29
mdzbut I think it'll be a trickle for some time yet06:29
pittiwould it be possible to put new packages into a public queue?06:29
pittiso that anybody can review it?06:29
ograor ist it probably a job for the MOTU master ?06:30
pittias soon as two members/motus give thumbs up, it's approved to universe?06:30
mdzpitti: mentors.debian.net-a-like06:30
mdzI think that's a good idea, but there's no pressing need for it yet06:30
elmolonger term launchpad solves this06:30
mdzgood point06:31
pittimdz: I think looking at the list of files shipped in the debs (correct paths, no setuid etc.) would be a good first and quick test06:31
elmoI don't think we should invest any energy into solving this until the number of NEW packages becomes a problem for me06:31
mdzogra: are you satisfied with the solution that has been described?06:31
ograyup :)06:31
sabdflis christoph haas around?06:31
mdzdoesn't seem to be06:31
mdzhe's ChrisH I believe06:32
ograi pinged him in -de06:32
sivangI've called on him let's see if he responds06:32
sabdflelmo: can i ask you to ping us if you aren't able to approve / decline a package within two working days?06:32
mdzyes, we did decide to make that type of commitment in Mataro06:32
sabdflwe should promise the MOTU that level of service06:32
elmo*shrug* k06:33
sabdflif we can't it's a bug on our processes, and we'll need to decentralise further06:33
mdzbut if someone unknown uploads a huge and complex package, there is no guarantee that we will be able to devote resources to the review within that time06:33
ograsabdfl: i think MOTU should bother canonical as less as it can...06:33
sabdfli'd like universe / multiverse to be relatively liberal06:33
sabdflogra: agreed06:33
sabdflperhaps if two MOTU have approved the package it goes straight in?06:33
sabdflbarring CoC issues ("nazi shooters")06:34
elmoand license issues06:34
sabdflelmo: +106:34
sabdflmdz: that's reasonable, yes06:34
sabdflok ogra I think that's an answer for your question06:34
mdzsladen: are you applying for member status or maintainer/uploader status?06:36
ograthe prob is that we currently are only two MOTUs ..... 06:36
ograahh, kdz was faster again :)06:36
sabdflsladen: or MOTU status :-)06:36
sladenmdz: I think member, (immediately followed by committer/maintainer) ?06:36
mdzogra: that will provide incentive for you to recruit new MOTU ;-)06:36
ograyay !06:36
mdzmembers need a CC vote according to the wiki process06:37
sabdfli think we have cc present06:37
sabdflmako? elmo? kamion?06:37
elmosorry what are we voting on?  universe only, or everything?06:37
mdzwe have 3/406:37
sladenI think I'm going to need sysvinit, mkinitrd-tools, initrd-tools, grub(?), $xorg_resolution_detect, gdm, usplash-*, in the next couple of weeks (all of which are in main)06:38
sabdflfor sladen, membership06:38
sabdfltb will do upload06:38
sivangpeople who get approved by CC are eligable for voting afterwards in CC meetings?06:38
sabdflsivang: vote to confirm CC appointments06:38
ograsabdfl: we are in TB...so you could do both ;)06:38
sivangsabdfl: ok.06:39
mdzogra: we will06:39
elmoI wish these damn procedures would stabilize, they seem to change everytime I blink06:39
sabdflelmo, kamion?06:39
sivangelmo: I get that feeling also ;-)06:39
sabdflmembership for sladen. recognises a "significant and ongoing contribution"06:39
mdzA person who wants to become a member should:06:39
mdz      Be contributing. Very wide definition of contributing: Coding, writing, art-work, etc. Everybody can be pa rt of the community. Contributions should be significant.06:39
mdz      Have good testimonials / recommendations from others in the community.06:39
mdz      Have a wiki-page with stuff he is working in / has worked on.06:39
mdz      Community Council votes whether a person can become a member.06:39
haggaielmo: stop blinking so slowly then :)06:39
Kamionsorry, just a sec06:40
mdzI can speak for sladen's contributions to date being significant06:40
elmosabdfl: does that mean CC no longer have any say on whether a person can upload to main?06:40
sabdflelmo: yes06:40
sabdflcc is membership, which votes on cc appointments and procedural amendments etc06:40
sabdfltb is upload, and votes on tb appointments06:40
KamionI'm fine with membership for sladen on the basis of ongoing usplash work and other contributions06:41
mdzwiki page is present and linked from the agenda06:41
sabdflpossibly also votes on technical items06:41
elmo*shrug* fine06:41
ograahh, which answers my question from the beginning...06:41
sabdflsladen gets my vote too, welcome aboard06:41
sivangdo we have a list of the wiki of CC members already06:41
mdzsladen: congratulations06:42
=== sladen gives nods of Thanks all round
sabdflsivang: no, we should have, could you create that please?06:42
ograyay, hi sladenMOTU06:42
sivangsladen: congerts.06:42
sabdflwe have a spec which the launchpad team will implement06:42
sabdflthat will publish the membership list on launchpad.ubuntu.com06:42
sabdflUbuntites unite!06:42
mdzsivang: CC members, or Ubuntu members?06:42
mdzCC members are on the website06:42
sivangmdz: link?06:43
mdzsivang: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/council06:43
mdzbut I think you're talking about Ubuntu members06:43
mdzsince there is no list that I know of06:43
sabdflok, i think we are done with the agenda06:43
mdzand there definitely should be!06:43
sabdflany other business?06:43
mdzsabdfl: not quite06:43
sladensladen upload?06:43
mdzsladen applied for upload privileges06:43
ograsladen: go 06:43
sivangI was adviced by mako and jdub and now pitti, to request a package for hebrew fonts to get in main,06:43
sivangnamel culmus.06:43
mdzI have authenticated sladen's gpg key myself, if I'm not mistaken, so I'm satisfied with that requirement06:44
=== sladen wonders if he should /part #ubuntu-meeting
ograculmus was also requested in ubuntu-devel ML06:44
mdzwe don't have a lot of guidelines for upload status at this point06:44
sabdflmdz, keybuk, upload for sladen to universe plus sysvinit, mkinitrd-tools, initrd-tools, grub(?), $xorg_resolution_detect, gdm, usplash-*06:45
KeybukI don't have any problem with sladen06:45
mdzor simply unlimited?06:45
elmoguys, this "per package" thing is completely out of left-field06:45
Keybuk(in general)06:45
mdzI think having a huge list of packages is a bit silly06:45
elmono one told me about it --> katie has no support for it06:45
sabdflelmo: don't worry, we'll manage it socially for the moment06:45
sivangmdz: if I Was approved by the CC , am I on the CC , or and Ubuntu member? :)06:45
sabdflsoyuz will automate it06:45
mdzif we trust someone to upload an essential package, we trust them to upload anything06:46
mdzsivang: you are an Ubuntu member06:46
mdzsivang: sabdfl appoints new CC members06:46
sivangmdz: ah ok :) now that made clea some stuff :)06:46
elmosabdfl: I'd really rather we didn't06:46
sabdflsivang votes to confirm :-)06:46
mdzsabdfl: website says appoints06:46
sivangsabdfl: hehe , cool.06:46
sabdflok, i should change it06:46
sabdflcan't appoint till its confirmed :-)06:47
sabdflwe need a *picture* not another document06:47
mdzok, so the matter at hand06:47
mdzas I said, there aren't any guidelines in place for us regarding confirmation of upload status06:47
sivangsabdfl: nominates sounds more prestigues...;-)06:47
sabdflis just awaiting keybuk's vote06:47
ogracant sladen just agree he limits his uploads to the named packages and we all belive him ?06:47
mdzbut in my opinion, it's a matter of trusting the person not to exceed their limits06:47
Keybuksabdfl: sorry, which?  (having slight connectivity problems and getting things in bursts)06:48
sabdflmdz: in future we will automate this, for now, it's just social06:48
sabdflsladen, upload to universe plus a bunch of break-my-ubuntu packages ;-)06:48
Keybuk<Keybuk> I don't have any problem with sladen06:48
mdzI don't think it's sensible to saddle sladen with a list of packages in main that he is allowed to upload06:48
=== ChrisH [~chaas@gw.workaround.org] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
mdzbecause it means revisiting the issue when that list changes with his work06:48
mdzKeybuk: unrestricted main?06:49
Keybukmdz: I don't have a problem with main in general06:49
mdzbased on his participation so far, my feeling is that he won't do anything silly in main06:49
sladengranted.  It would be inconvient---there maybe some others than come into play.  I'm happy to ping socially before doing so06:49
ogramdz: else we wll find out where he lives :p06:50
Keybukogra: oh, it's easy to find sladen ... just say the words "free bar", and he mysteriously turns up <g>06:50
mdzand on that basis I have no problem with him uploading packages in main06:50
sladenogra: other side of town from sabdfl.  I'm sure it'll pop on the Victoria Line and bring the Heavies if needed06:50
mdzsabdfl: you voted?06:51
sabdflyes, +1 to sladen, unlimited06:51
ogra<sabdfl> is just awaiting keybuk's vote06:52
mdzok, sounds like we're done06:52
sabdflsladen, congrats and thanks06:52
ograerr, one last question....06:52
sivanganybody saw my fonts package question? ;)06:52
ograwhat turned out with the MOTU Master ?06:52
ogrado we have one ?06:52
mdzsivang: on the agenda?06:52
mdzogra: that's a CC matter06:53
sivangmdz: hrm no, I was away for quite some time and pitti noted this to me only when the meeting was one hour in.06:53
mdzogra: and I thought it was decided at the CC meeting06:53
sabdflthans everybody06:53
ogramdz: i thought there was no answer from either haggai or ChrisH06:53
mdzsivang: we have been here two hours; add it to the agenda for the next meeting06:54
sivangmdz: sure, no prob, and I apologize.06:54
mdzogra: I think they were appointed, pending their approval of themselves ;-)06:54
mdzthanks, everyone06:54
ChrisHogra: No public answer at least. :)06:54
sabdfli will get the current version of our membership / upload / commit permissions up on a wiki today06:54
haggaimdz: I wrote to mako & sabdfl last week06:54
ograyup...ChrisH, but since i'm a MOTU now i'd like to know it06:55
sivangsabdfl: does somebody has a list of already ubuntu members?06:55
ChrisHogra: haggai agreed to do it. I don't have the time currently. Already talked with him about it.06:55
mdzsivang: it could at least be found in the CC transcripts06:56
ograa, k06:56
sabdflsivang: put up the wiki page with your best recollection, then well ask members to correct it06:56
sladensabdfl: would it be add a repositary of ''signed CoC's'' I think it would be a useful (and public) "role call" to have06:56
sivangsabdfl: ok, sure.06:56
sabdflsladen: yes, elmo has them06:56
elmono I don't06:56
sladenmake does06:56
elmothat was another random change - they all got sent to mako instead06:56
ograregarding the CoC, there should be a text file for download to easily sign it06:56
sabdflelmo: sorry, my mistake, you should be getting them06:57
sabdflogra: could you produce that?06:57
sabdflput a version on it, because we will need to rev it over time06:57
ogra(since i already have one i signed)06:57
ograhmm, who is allowed to change that website ?06:59
Treenaksogra: oh you fixed it?06:59
Treenaksogra: I just signed a w3m -dump :)06:59
mdzsladen: yes, that was the plan, to post them publicly06:59
ograTreenaks: i made a ps and used ps2txt ;)06:59
Treenaksogra: hmmm.. :)06:59
ograTreenaks: so you will _finally_ join MOTU....thats great news :)07:00
sivangogra: are you the new MOTU leader?07:00
ograsivang: it appears that haggai is :)07:00
sladenMasters Of The Universe07:00
Treenaksoh wait yes07:00
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makosabdfl: i'm here07:17
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