=== maskie [~maskie@196-30-108-239.uudial.uunet.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pitti [~martin@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pitti [~martin@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pitti [~martin@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jiyuu0 [~jiyuu0@219.95.210.165] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === maskie [~maskie@196-30-109-144.uudial.uunet.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jiyuu0 [~jiyuu0@219.95.32.148] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ogra_ [~ogra@p508EB646.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Keybuk [scott@descent.netsplit.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === zul [~chuck@zul.developer.gentoo] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jiyuu0 [~jiyuu0@219.95.32.148] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mvo__ [~egon@ip181.135.1511I-CUD12K-01.ish.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ajmitch [~ajmitch@chc11-port78.jetstart.maxnet.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === elmo [~james@83-216-141-215.jamest298.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === lamont_r [~lamont@dsl-140-170.dynamic-dsl.frii.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mdz [~mdz@69-167-148-207.vnnyca.adelphia.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [04:52] (sc [04:52] argh === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz] : Tuesday 25 January 2005 16:00 UTC: Community Council meeting -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda. Tuesday 18 January 2005 1600UTC: Technical Board -- http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda. || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel [04:52] hi * [04:53] hello [04:53] morning === ogra [~ogra@p508EB646.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [04:54] hey fabbione === lamont_r makes a note to not reschedule holidays onto tuesdays ever again. :-( === sabdfl [~mark@host217-37-231-28.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === silbs [~sbsm0084@host217-37-231-28.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === haggai [~halls@i-83-67-20-196.freedom2surf.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === amu [~amu@amu.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === silbs [~sbsm0084@host217-37-231-28.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [04:59] welcome, everyone [04:59] time to get started [05:00] hmm, we lost sabdfl [05:00] heh === jbailey [~jbailey@CPE000ded9d787c-CM014260028338.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:00] quick, let's finish before he gets back! :D [05:00] Riddell: are you here? [05:00] hi [05:01] should we wait for sabdfl? [05:01] Riddell: so you are currently a Member? [05:02] rather commiter [05:02] mdz: I'm currently a member with special privilages to upload to universe [05:02] ogra: member's the relevant bit; implies he's passed CC [05:02] ok, so CC signoff already happened [05:02] not for full maintainership [05:02] Kamion: yeah, true [05:02] I don't think we need to go back to CC [05:03] but mako has been slack in documenting the process ;-P [05:03] err, yeah we do [05:03] becoming a universe person requires sign off from only two CC [05:03] becoming a maintainer is meant to require sign off from full CC and TB, AIUI [05:03] Member is a community council vote === sabdfl [~mark@host217-37-231-28.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:04] hi all [05:04] welcome back [05:05] I'm working on kubuntu so if kdelibs and other bits go into main it would be useful if I could keep working on them [05:05] we were just arguing about the still-undocumented new membership process [05:05] hmm... i spec'd this out and mailed launchpad and mako [05:05] happy for it to go onto the wiki for further refinement [05:05] what's the question? [05:05] Riddell for main [05:06] it's already in the wiki [05:06] it's been refined, and I think it needs to be properly documented on the main website [05:06] the notes are here: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewDevelopersAndMaintainers [05:06] they do not include the modifications for the accelerated universe-only process [05:06] which Riddell has been through, iirc [05:06] neither did my launchpad spec [05:07] wasnt that a one timer (riddell aqnd me for universe) ? [05:07] i tihnk we agreed that uploading permission could be component and package [05:07] at least thats how i understood it [05:07] ogra: no, we were trying to define a longer-term process [05:07] so riddell could hapily be given permission to upload to universe *and* specific packages, even if those migrate to main [05:07] ah, ok, so i misunderstood then [05:07] of course, i hope riddell would qualify for main uploading soon too [05:08] (I have been making quite a few mistakes in the packages I've uploaded) [05:08] what is the accelerated universe-only process? I'm sure there are plenty of others (like me) who'd like to do that too [05:08] ajmitch: find two TB / CC / MOTU folks to approve you [05:08] ok [05:08] ajmitch: sign the CoC [05:09] sabdfl: i would suggest Riddell and give him some help [05:09] andyou'reoff [05:09] ajmitch: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewDevelopersAndMaintainers [05:09] that wiki page is just a bunch of notes from the BoF [05:09] ogra: isn't that for full membership? [05:09] and doesn't document the process as it stands [05:09] mdz: but gives some hints at least [05:09] ogra: masters of universe is not mentioned there [05:09] true [05:10] so i vouch for Riddell :) [05:11] i'll second riddell [05:11] am i allowed to vote ? [05:11] riddell, can you get a signed CoC to elmo please? === fabbione thumbs up [05:11] sabdfl: I sent one to mako last week [05:11] sabdfl: he's sent a signed CoC to mako [05:11] if so +1 for riddell [05:11] sabdfl: he can already upload to universe [05:11] sabdfl: what we're talking about here is full maintainership [05:11] ok rock, thank you [05:11] ah [05:12] as in, unrestricted uploads to main [05:12] sabdfl: you approved us both last week ;) [05:12] Riddell: can we stick with universe + specific packages for a while? [05:12] sabdfl: sure [05:12] cool [05:12] if it comes to a vote today, I'd have to plead insufficient information [05:12] can we move on? [05:12] anything beginning with a k would be fine [05:12] heh [05:12] Riddell: Kernel? [05:13] sabdfl: I think so [05:13] fabbione: starts with an L [05:13] fabbione: it's called linux in ubuntu [05:13] :-) [05:13] damn.. it didn't work :P [05:13] mail storage standardisation [05:13] everyone read the proposal? === lamont_r read it, kind of favors the counter proposal [05:14] who submitted the proposal? [05:14] i did === Kamion also favours the counter-proposal; my local experimentation with maildir didn't endear me to it === sladen reads it two days ago [05:14] sabdfl: this is a religious topic [05:14] right now we have no answer [05:14] even removing postfix doesn't solve the deeper problem [05:14] someone who WANTS mail delivery doesn't get something that Just Works [05:14] sabdfl: true. [05:14] mutt is missing several advanced features when forced to use maildir [05:14] it doesn't even Just Work badly [05:14] the informal discussions that we have had on this subject lead to the irrelevance of Unix-style mail in the desktop [05:14] I think we should implement the proposal [05:14] mdz++ [05:15] ubuntu is not jsut for desktops === pitti votes for proposal _and_ removing postfix from default install [05:15] however, the proposal and counter-proposal seem orthogonal to me [05:15] sabdfl: and apache2 isn't installed in base [05:15] Kamion: I have to agree with you [05:15] i have had concerns with postfix since before warty [05:15] it is straightforward to have SMTP and IMAP services Just Work after installing dovecot and postfix [05:15] this is orthogonal, as kamion points out [05:15] using a traditional mbox spool [05:15] I don't think that a crippled postfix install in base is the right answer [05:15] which is what we have in warty [05:16] Even maildir were promoted, I like the naming conventions in the proposal. But not sure about the wider topic of Maildir vs. mbox [05:16] lamont_r: agreed [05:16] note that shifting to .maildir has implications for NFS-home folks [05:16] sabdfl: but uncrippling postfix requires taht it ask questions, which is why we got where we are [05:16] there are three scenarios on a typical box: [05:16] - no mail needed locally [05:16] shifting to delivery-into-homedir has impliications for NFS-home folks [05:16] although I do like having SOME kind of maildir naming conventions [05:16] - basic mail needed locally [05:16] - sophisticated requirements [05:16] mdz: indeed [05:17] at the moment we address none of these [05:17] Kamion: nfs automatically promotes you to sophisticated [05:17] sabdfl: at the moment, the requirement to not listen on any ports by default gives you only 'no mail needed locally' [05:17] anyone who is doing that can setup the configs to suit them [05:17] so why do we install a daemon by default? [05:17] sabdfl: we can't address them in a clean way. as soon as we push one way the other 2 will suffer imho [05:17] What do you think about Keybuk's local-only delivery script? I think that's a nice default installation [05:17] once again, this does not solve the problem [05:17] lamont_r: except root messages -> first user [05:17] sabdfl: yes; but we still have to not gratuitously break things for those folks [05:17] pitti: I like that [05:18] if i drop three pieces of mail infrastructure down right now it does not just work [05:18] then postfix could install as a full MTA by default [05:18] sladen: that's Keybuk's local delivery thing [05:18] pitti: yes [05:18] and mbox, while it has some advantages for a single app environment, does not work as well when you have multiple apps all sharing the data [05:18] pitti: like that [05:18] sabdfl: why doesn't it work? is there a problem other than postfix being crippled by default? [05:18] Kamion: nothing i'm proposing prevents local configuration to suit a sysadmin [05:18] the trouble is, if you want local mail delivery, you almost certainly have an unwavering love of one particular MDA [05:19] mdz: yes [05:19] (with dropping the three pieces together) [05:19] sabdfl: ok [05:19] and you're going to want to remove postfix and install that instead [05:19] i would like it to work as follows [05:19] Keybuk: iff it's different, of course. [05:19] mdz: can we agree to discuss both things separately? [05:19] 1. we agree on format and naming [05:19] pitti++ [05:19] pitti: I'm trying to determine whether they're closely related [05:20] 2. we setup ALL our mail components in main (and possibly the bigger ones in universe) to work that way out of the box [05:20] thing 1: default installation; thing 2: make installations work out of the box [05:20] this allows someone to remove postfix and install exim and have everything else continue to Work [05:20] mdz: they are completely orthogonal [05:20] then remove dovecot and install UW-Imap and have it Just Work [05:20] pitti: not if the only reason it doesn't work out of the box is that postfix is crippled [05:20] sabdfl: except if they do that, they have to remove ubuntu-desktop [05:20] because this works in Debian. trivially. [05:20] then replace mutt with Evo and have it Just Work [05:20] Keybuk: ubuntu-base [05:20] sabdfl: ++ [05:20] sorry, ubuntu-base [05:21] i've been digging into this and the trend towards maildir is clear [05:21] Keybuk: which is exactly the right thing, if you think about it [05:21] I agree Maildir is better than mailbox, and if we go Maildir we should use $HOME/Maildir [05:21] Keybuk: have you read the proposal? [05:21] because if we decide to switch to a different MTA, they don't want it [05:21] sabdfl: yes, I did [05:22] ~/Maildir is b0rked, because it makes something visible that should not be so [05:22] sabdfl: we could ship a default .hidden file so it's not visible in Nautilus [05:22] sabdfl: what about ~/Desktop? [05:22] Keybuk: would you like chewing gum with that? [05:22] ~/public_html... [05:22] The only thing I did not like in the proposal were the dot-file folders [05:22] mdz: remember Oxford? i still feel the same way :-) [05:22] sabdfl: it's better than changing *every* *single* MTA/MDA and MUA to respect ~/.maildir [05:23] Keybuk: trivial changes [05:23] i've done it on my own system and it's straightforward [05:23] Keybuk: trivial changes x10 && have everything work Just So vs. No changes and have things sometimes work (I prefer the former) [05:24] I'd rather we didn't ship an MDA in base at all [05:24] and let people who want local delivery install one [05:24] Keybuk: agreed, however, when you install it it should work [05:24] Keybuk: but many packages depend on an mta [05:24] sabdfl: oh, most definitely [05:25] why doesn't postfix? I thought Debian policy required both MTAs and MUAs to respect /var/mail/$USER ? [05:25] if we change MUAs to look in ~/.maildir we should arrange that they still look in ~/Maildir if ~/.maildir isn't there [05:25] cron, for example [05:25] Kamion: +1 [05:25] pitti: trivial to change, make it not mail if there's no sendmail [05:25] if postfix doesn't simply work out of the box, we've broken it, because it works in Debian [05:25] it seems to deliver properly here? [05:25] mdz: no listening leads to a configuration that most people don't want [05:26] Keybuk: does your local-delivery provide a sendmail -t work a like? [05:26] lamont_r: but local mail delivery works [05:26] yes [05:26] if I type "mutt", I get a mailbox full of debconf notes [05:26] Keybuk: agreed [05:26] likewise === seb128 [~seb128@ANancy-151-1-28-86.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:26] and surely dovecot exports /var/mail by default [05:27] dovecot does automagic [05:27] to try and determine what you're doing [05:27] I'd like to consider separately the "make IMAP service just work" and "move to maildir" items [05:27] so does anybody actually want an installed default MTA on a desktop? [05:27] I don't [05:27] pitti: no [05:27] no [05:27] no [05:28] local MDA has uses, but no MTA [05:28] so the first step seems to be obvious, right? [05:28] remove postfix from desktop and uncripple it again [05:28] mdz: yup (just tried it) [05:29] removing postfix from base without replacing it with anything means no /usr/sbin/sendmail, which I'm fairly sure will break some things during installation [05:29] so we seem to have three distinct issues: [05:29] (I might be wrong though) === doko [~doko___@dsl-082-082-208-171.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:30] 1. Standardize on maildir?, 2. Have no MTA in base?, 3. have mail service just work? [05:30] Kamion: Keybuk's MDA would work for this [05:30] but 3. seems to be a non-issue at present [05:30] Kamion: we would fix those things [05:30] mdz: 3 for bendy? [05:30] the most problematic, I think, is LSB [05:30] LSB requires an MTA [05:30] really? [05:30] not just an MDA? [05:31] lsb Depends: mail-transport-agent [05:31] pitti: indeed, if it existed :-) [05:31] Kamion: i am pretty sure a bunch of pkgs will fail to install without an MTA [05:31] 3 is an issue [05:31] sabdfl: using the standard spool and installing dovecot seems to work fine [05:31] any idea what Apple did. They ship Postfix but I've no idea how it's configured [05:31] mdz: you only use mutt [05:31] Keybuk: "existed" -> Keybuk's MDA? it does exist, I already saw it [05:31] how can we work towards widespread recognition of ubuntu as a mail server if our mail components don't work together? [05:31] sabdfl: meaning that you are considering the case where the system is both a mail server and a desktop system where people read mail? [05:32] yes [05:32] rather than a traditional mail server [05:32] is that a case we need to optimize for? [05:32] fundamentally, we should make sure that any combination of components has the best chance of working, and working well [05:32] of course some experts will have preferences and will customise their systems [05:32] sabdfl: have you got any two examples where mail components *don't* work together? Because it's Debian policy that they must, so if they don't, we've broken it [05:33] Keybuk: I think he's talking about, e.g. evolution not reading the spool [05:33] Debian policy requires that stuff works together on the inbox, but not on other folders [05:34] hmm, that's actually really really hard to do with Evolution [05:34] because Evolution doesn't behave like that [05:34] the "Local" thing is actually a special thing built-in to evo [05:34] evo does do maildir [05:34] and you really can't persuade it to read /var/mail/$USER instead, without adding an account [05:34] sabdfl: yeah, but *only* if you add an Account [05:34] and that has to have things like a real name, and e-mail address associated with it [05:35] and a outgoing mailserver === silbs [~sbsm0084@host217-37-231-28.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:37] Keybuk: could those be created by adduser/useradd when copying skel ? (GECOS and $USER@localhost) [05:37] sladen: meh, it'd involve adding .gconf and stuff === sabdfl [~mark@host217-37-231-28.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:38] welcome back Lunchpad [05:38] ;-) [05:39] sabdfl: should we be considering this in a Hoary context? [05:39] any further comments? [05:39] mdz: your call, bendy for certain === jiyuu0 [~jiyuu0@219.95.215.221] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:40] if I have a choice in the matter, this would be a bendy feature [05:40] we don't seem to have a consensus yet [05:40] we should have more discussion, and if we can do it for hoary, we will [05:41] but I don't think we can commit to it yet [05:41] ok [05:41] I think that maildir is sane [05:41] mdz: hmm, at least the default MTA should be settled for Hoary IMHO [05:41] mdz: is this your #1 & 3? [05:41] I like the idea of moving from /var/mail/$USER to $HOME/Maildir, I don't like the idea of changing that hugely-standard location (though I can see why people might desire it) [05:41] pitti: agreed [05:41] lamont_r: this is regarding #3 [05:42] I have no concrete argument with maildir as a standard mail store [05:42] ok. should we move on to ogra? [05:42] how about mdz's #2? [05:42] as to whether we should go forth and modify the defaults of all mail software in Ubuntu, that needs to be considered as a release goal in my opinion [05:42] mdz: will need quite a bt of testing to make sure we don't break the GoldenRule [05:42] #2 was: should we remove the MTA from base in hoary? [05:43] new conf only [05:43] yes [05:43] I think we should [05:43] mdz: yes it was, and yes we should [05:43] anyone else have an opinion or comment? [05:43] Kamion: are you happy we can remove postfix and have the installer still work? [05:43] I think no MTA or MDA (not even my bit of Python), fix cron and debconf to only send mail if there's sendmail on the system -- gives server folk free reign to pick an MTA/MDA of choice without conflict [05:43] the question that then comes up is: do we provide some thing (ala Keybuk's code), or not? [05:44] Keybuk: to be honest, I think mail is the wrong thing for debconf anyway [05:44] Keybuk: does your code have a life outside of birmingham? [05:44] Keybuk: we should turn those into the hooks that mvo and I discussed [05:44] http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/sendmail.py [05:44] in the sense of a community, outside interest, outside use? [05:44] Keybuk: two issues: LSB and how people get notified about failed crons and debconf stuff= [05:44] was written in Matar, and I mailed it to -devel when we first had this discussion :) [05:44] right [05:45] what about nullmail and similar local-only mailers? [05:45] pitti: well, the problem there is people don't, because they don't know they even have local mail until they exit ssh or something :p [05:45] sabdfl: I'd only be confident about that with something else providing /usr/sbin/sendmail in its place [05:45] nullmailer is a transfer agent, not a local-delivery agent fwir [05:45] ok [05:45] the basis for my opinion about removing it is that having local-only delivery isn't really useful [05:45] mdz++++ [05:45] sendmail.py doesn't really address that [05:46] for Warty, we considered ourselves to be "stuck" with having local mail, because things like cron, at, debconf, etc. relied on it [05:46] well, it provides local-only delviery, which we agreed isn't really useful [05:46] but for hoary, we have the freedom to consider those bugs if needed [05:46] bugs [05:46] Keybuk: okay, agreed. But still, LSB cries for sendmail [05:46] Keybuk: debconf just calls /usr/bin/mail -s, and tolerates it being absent [05:46] pitti: LSB cries for RPM too, doesn't it? [05:47] mdz: although I have personal religious issues with all the packages that Depend: exim4 | mail-transport-agent [05:47] Keybuk: we have alien :-) [05:47] Kamion: perfect [05:47] Keybuk: it's installed by default just to satisfy LSB, I think [05:47] lamont_r: we can fix 'em ;-) [05:47] although I think the GNOME frontend might pop up an error dialog box in that case; we'd want to tweak that [05:47] pitti: yes, indirectly [05:47] sabdfl: thanks. I'll quote you on that. :-) [05:47] "use exim4 or a real MTA" [05:47] Kamion: if and when the GNOME frontend becomes viable [05:48] mdz: isn't it useful to think that a local mailer allows debconf etc to continue as they currently do, and that if our mail components work together then ANY mail client will immediately see that mail? [05:48] so it sounds like at most, we should only need to fix cron and at [05:48] and possibly sudo [05:49] mdz: changing Depends: mta to Recommends: mta??? [05:49] is all this easy addressable on upgrades from warty ? [05:49] mdz: and then postfix* move from base to ship [05:50] sabdfl: I don't have a use case which isn't better satisfied by other functionality in the system [05:50] debconf notes _should_ be blackholed by default unless a sysadmin has configured mail, because they only confuse users [05:50] ones which are relevant to users should become post-install hooks [05:50] ogra: warty upgrades would retain postfix [05:50] though the release notes would recommend removing it if it's unused [05:50] ah, ok...but that means i get a crippled hoary then [05:50] cron errors _should_ be blackholed unless a sysadmin has configured mail, because those confuse users even more [05:51] erk, users wouldn't get errors from their crontabs? [05:51] I think that will be a support burden [05:51] Kamion: agreed [05:51] "where did the errors go?" "uh ... nowhere" [05:51] I think you guys are talking about a different kind of "user" [05:51] Kamion: if users are writing crontabs, they're likely to be the kind of user who's installed an mda of their own [05:51] ogra: how so? If you prefer a different MTA, then once you upgrade to hoary, installing it (and removing postfix) would not remove ubuntu-base [05:51] a user who can write crontabs can configure mail, too [05:51] I think throwing away errors is a bug, period [05:52] mdz: yes but if they're coming from another system they might not realise that they need to [05:52] erm, dont cron errors already go in syslog [05:52] A user who can write crontabs might not have permission to install mail. [05:52] ogra: news to me if they do [05:52] jbailey: a user without permission is a client on a server, and needs to ask their admin to set things up [05:52] ogra: no, they don't [05:52] if we're disabling mail, we need to come up with somewhere else to put cron errors [05:52] Just refering back to the support nightmare. [05:52] Kamion: crontab could emit a warning [05:52] syslog would be fine [05:53] "If you want to receive errors, install a mail-transport-agent" [05:53] although potentially an information leak, actually [05:53] Kamion, jbailey: agreed, I think a minimal local-delivery-only agent is the answer [05:53] syslog would need to be root-only [05:53] ugh [05:53] systems like that are such a pain [05:53] you can never find out what's going on [05:53] AFAICT, the wording is ''requires /usr/sbin/sendmail *if* the system provides a sendmail compatible MTA'' ... doesn't say anything about /not/ providing a sendmail-compatible [05:53] local unix mail is a wart on our desktop, and an annoyance on our server [05:53] mdz: crontab emitting a warning would be a reasonable option [05:53] crontab emit a warning [05:54] sladen: Where are you looking? Chapter 3 seems to say that Table 3-1 lists the Commands and Utilities required to be present on a conforming system. sendmail is in the list. [05:54] mdz: any serious MTA would replace it, right? [05:54] this gives us crontab behaviour one would expect [05:54] we can improve the debconf msgs so they are less confusing, or hook them as you described [05:55] sabdfl: a serious unix mail user either wants postfix (and is thwarted by our crippled default configuration) or wants something else anyway [05:55] thwarted? surely it would be a drop-in replacement? [05:55] sabdfl: crontab would only emit the warning if /usr/sbin/sendmail was absent [05:55] the hook stuff, by the way, is: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/InteractiveUpgradeHooks [05:55] mdz: s/user/admin/; I've never had a need to care what MTA was installed on a system where I was a mere user [05:55] sabdfl: they expect the config to work, and the crippled default config confuses the hell out of most of the less expert users [05:55] well, not beyond knowing where the logs were [05:55] Kamion: agreed [05:56] jbailey: that was FHS, I guess LSB ch.3 supersedes that... [05:56] mail logs aren't generally readable by unprivileged users anyway [05:56] that's a bug :-) [05:56] from my woody server: /var/log/syslog.0:Jan 18 06:23:01 aleph /USR/SBIN/CRON[24496] : (mail) CMD ( if [ -x /usr/sbin/exim -a -f /etc/exim/exim.conf ] ; then /usr/sbin/exim -q ; fi) [05:56] it obviously is possible [05:56] sabdfl: if they want postfix, postfix is already there (but broken), so they can't just install it [05:56] sabdfl: if they want something else, they need to install it anyway [05:56] so the presence of a crippled postfix in base doesn't satisfy either use case [05:57] mdz: i was proposing a simple local-only mta after install, and a proper postfix on request [05:57] so if it isn't relative to a sysadmin, and isn't relevant to a desktop user, I think we should remove it [05:57] sabdfl: that addresses those two problems, yes [05:57] local-only being keybuks or similar [05:57] but not the problem of local-only mail in the desktop [05:57] which is that it grows until it consumes the disk [05:57] sabdfl: the issue there is that installing _any_ mta would cause ubuntu-base to be removed [05:58] hm... [05:58] lamont_r: if that's the only issue, we can address it [05:58] mdz: well, one of several, as you note [05:58] lamont_r: even if ubuntu-base depends on something provided by both the local-only and postfix / exim / sendmail? [05:58] sabdfl: that could work [05:58] mdz: applet that pops up when /var/mail/$USER is non-empty? [05:59] Kamion: what would it give you to read it? [05:59] you could call it "system events" ;) [05:59] Keybuk: no idea [05:59] gnome-terminal -e mail ;) [05:59] hehe [05:59] Kamion: the messages the user would find in there are entirely cryptic to the average user === Keybuk beats Kamion with a spoon [05:59]