[04:52] <fabbione> (sc
[04:52] <fabbione> argh
[04:52] <fabbione> hi *
[04:53] <ajmitch> hello
[04:53] <lamont_r> morning
[04:54] <zul> hey fabbione 
[04:59] <mdz> welcome, everyone
[04:59] <mdz> time to get started
[05:00] <mdz> hmm, we lost sabdfl
[05:00] <Keybuk> heh
[05:00] <Keybuk> quick, let's finish before he gets back! :D
[05:00] <mdz> Riddell: are you here?
[05:00] <Riddell> hi
[05:01] <Riddell> should we wait for sabdfl?
[05:01] <mdz> Riddell: so you are currently  a Member?
[05:02] <ogra> rather commiter
[05:02] <Riddell> mdz: I'm currently a member with special privilages to upload to universe
[05:02] <Kamion> ogra: member's the relevant bit; implies he's passed CC
[05:02] <mdz> ok, so CC signoff already happened
[05:02] <elmo> not for full maintainership
[05:02] <ogra> Kamion: yeah, true
[05:02] <mdz> I don't think we need to go back to CC
[05:03] <mdz> but mako has been slack in documenting the process ;-P
[05:03] <elmo> err, yeah we do
[05:03] <elmo> becoming a universe person requires sign off from only two CC
[05:03] <elmo> becoming a maintainer is meant to require sign off from full CC and TB, AIUI
[05:03] <mdz> Member is a community council vote
[05:04] <sabdfl> hi all
[05:04] <mdz> welcome back
[05:05] <Riddell> I'm working on kubuntu so if kdelibs and other bits go into main it would be useful if I could keep working on them
[05:05] <mdz> we were just arguing about the still-undocumented new membership process
[05:05] <sabdfl> hmm... i spec'd this out and mailed launchpad and mako
[05:05] <sabdfl> happy for it to go onto the wiki for further refinement
[05:05] <sabdfl> what's the question?
[05:05] <ogra> Riddell for main
[05:06] <mdz> it's already in the wiki
[05:06] <mdz> it's been refined, and I think it needs to be properly documented on the main website
[05:06] <mdz> the notes are here: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewDevelopersAndMaintainers
[05:06] <mdz> they do not include the modifications for the accelerated universe-only process
[05:06] <mdz> which Riddell has been through, iirc
[05:06] <sabdfl> neither did my launchpad spec
[05:07] <ogra> wasnt that a one timer (riddell aqnd me for universe) ?
[05:07] <sabdfl> i tihnk we agreed that uploading permission could be component and package
[05:07] <ogra> at least thats how i understood it
[05:07] <Kamion> ogra: no, we were trying to define a longer-term process
[05:07] <sabdfl> so riddell could hapily be given permission to upload to universe *and* specific packages, even if those migrate to main
[05:07] <ogra> ah, ok, so i misunderstood then
[05:07] <sabdfl> of course, i hope riddell would qualify for main uploading soon too
[05:08] <Riddell> (I have been making quite a few mistakes in the packages I've uploaded)
[05:08] <ajmitch> what is the accelerated universe-only process? I'm sure there are plenty of others (like me) who'd like to do that too 
[05:08] <sabdfl> ajmitch: find two TB / CC / MOTU folks to approve you
[05:08] <ajmitch> ok
[05:08] <sabdfl> ajmitch: sign the CoC
[05:09] <amu> sabdfl: i would suggest Riddell and give him some help  
[05:09] <sabdfl> andyou'reoff
[05:09] <ogra> ajmitch: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewDevelopersAndMaintainers
[05:09] <mdz> that wiki page is just a bunch of notes from the BoF
[05:09] <ajmitch> ogra: isn't that for full membership?
[05:09] <mdz> and doesn't document the process as it stands
[05:09] <ogra> mdz: but gives some hints at least
[05:09] <Riddell> ogra: masters of universe is not mentioned there
[05:09] <ogra> true
[05:10] <amu> so i vouch for Riddell :) 
[05:11] <sabdfl> i'll second riddell
[05:11] <ogra> am i allowed to vote ? 
[05:11] <sabdfl> riddell, can you get a signed CoC to elmo please?
[05:11] <Riddell> sabdfl: I sent one to mako last week
[05:11] <elmo> sabdfl: he's sent a signed CoC to mako
[05:11] <ogra> if so +1 for riddell
[05:11] <elmo> sabdfl: he can already upload to universe
[05:11] <elmo> sabdfl: what we're talking about here is full maintainership
[05:11] <sabdfl> ok rock, thank you
[05:11] <sabdfl> ah
[05:12] <elmo> as in, unrestricted uploads to main
[05:12] <ogra> sabdfl: you approved us both last week ;)
[05:12] <sabdfl> Riddell: can we stick with universe + specific packages for a while?
[05:12] <Riddell> sabdfl: sure
[05:12] <sabdfl> cool
[05:12] <mdz> if it comes to a vote today, I'd have to plead insufficient information
[05:12] <sabdfl> can we move on?
[05:12] <Riddell> anything beginning with a k would be fine
[05:12] <ogra> heh
[05:12] <fabbione> Riddell: Kernel?
[05:13] <mdz> sabdfl: I think so
[05:13] <lamont_r> fabbione: starts with an L
[05:13] <Riddell> fabbione: it's called linux in ubuntu
[05:13] <sabdfl> :-)
[05:13] <fabbione> damn.. it didn't work :P
[05:13] <sabdfl> mail storage standardisation
[05:13] <sabdfl> everyone read the proposal?
[05:14] <mdz> who submitted the proposal?
[05:14] <sabdfl> i did
[05:14] <fabbione> sabdfl: this is a religious topic
[05:14] <sabdfl> right now we have no answer
[05:14] <sabdfl> even removing postfix doesn't solve the deeper problem
[05:14] <sabdfl> someone who WANTS mail delivery doesn't get something that Just Works
[05:14] <lamont_r> sabdfl: true.
[05:14] <Kamion> mutt is missing several advanced features when forced to use maildir
[05:14] <sabdfl> it doesn't even Just Work badly
[05:14] <mdz> the informal discussions that we have had on this subject lead to the irrelevance of Unix-style mail in the desktop
[05:14] <pitti> I think we should implement the proposal
[05:14] <lamont_r> mdz++
[05:15] <sabdfl> ubuntu is not jsut for desktops
[05:15] <Kamion> however, the proposal and counter-proposal seem orthogonal to me
[05:15] <lamont_r> sabdfl: and apache2 isn't installed in base
[05:15] <lamont_r> Kamion: I have to agree with you
[05:15] <sabdfl> i have had concerns with postfix since before warty
[05:15] <mdz> it is straightforward to have SMTP and IMAP services Just Work after installing dovecot and postfix
[05:15] <sabdfl> this is orthogonal, as kamion points out
[05:15] <mdz> using a traditional mbox spool
[05:15] <lamont_r> I don't think that a crippled postfix install in base is the right answer
[05:15] <lamont_r> which is what we have in warty
[05:16] <sladen> Even maildir were promoted, I like the naming conventions in the proposal.  But not sure about the wider topic of Maildir vs. mbox
[05:16] <sabdfl> lamont_r: agreed
[05:16] <Kamion> note that shifting to .maildir has implications for NFS-home folks
[05:16] <lamont_r> sabdfl: but uncrippling postfix requires taht it ask questions, which is why we got where we are
[05:16] <sabdfl> there are three scenarios on a typical box:
[05:16] <sabdfl>  - no mail needed locally
[05:16] <mdz> shifting to delivery-into-homedir has impliications for NFS-home folks
[05:16] <Kamion> although I do like having SOME kind of maildir naming conventions
[05:16] <sabdfl>  - basic mail needed locally
[05:16] <sabdfl>  - sophisticated requirements
[05:16] <Kamion> mdz: indeed
[05:17] <sabdfl> at the moment we address none of these
[05:17] <sabdfl> Kamion: nfs automatically promotes you to sophisticated
[05:17] <lamont_r> sabdfl: at the moment, the requirement to not listen on any ports by default gives you only 'no mail needed locally'
[05:17] <sabdfl> anyone who is doing that can setup the configs to suit them
[05:17] <lamont_r> so why do we install a daemon by default?
[05:17] <fabbione> sabdfl: we can't address them in a clean way. as soon as we push one way the other 2 will suffer imho
[05:17] <pitti> What do you think about Keybuk's local-only delivery script? I think that's a nice default installation
[05:17] <sabdfl> once again, this does not solve the problem
[05:17] <sladen> lamont_r: except root messages -> first user
[05:17] <Kamion> sabdfl: yes; but we still have to not gratuitously break things for those folks
[05:17] <lamont_r> pitti: I like that
[05:18] <sabdfl> if i drop three pieces of mail infrastructure down right now it does not just work
[05:18] <pitti> then postfix could install as a full MTA by default
[05:18] <lamont_r> sladen: that's Keybuk's local delivery thing
[05:18] <lamont_r> pitti: yes
[05:18] <sabdfl> and mbox, while it has some advantages for a single app environment, does not work as well when you have multiple apps all sharing the data
[05:18] <sladen> pitti: like that
[05:18] <mdz> sabdfl: why doesn't it work?  is there a problem other than postfix being crippled by default?
[05:18] <sabdfl> Kamion: nothing i'm proposing prevents local configuration to suit a sysadmin
[05:18] <Keybuk> the trouble is, if you want local mail delivery, you almost certainly have an unwavering love of one particular MDA
[05:19] <sabdfl> mdz: yes
[05:19] <mdz> (with dropping the three pieces together)
[05:19] <Kamion> sabdfl: ok
[05:19] <Keybuk> and you're going to want to remove postfix and install that instead
[05:19] <sabdfl> i would like it to work as follows
[05:19] <lamont_r> Keybuk: iff it's different, of course.
[05:19] <pitti> mdz: can we agree to discuss both things separately?
[05:19] <sabdfl>  1. we agree on format and naming
[05:19] <lamont_r> pitti++
[05:19] <mdz> pitti: I'm trying to determine whether they're closely related
[05:20] <sabdfl>  2. we setup ALL our mail components in main (and possibly the bigger ones in universe) to work that way out of the box
[05:20] <pitti> thing 1: default installation; thing 2: make installations work out of the box
[05:20] <sabdfl> this allows someone to remove postfix and install exim and have everything else continue to Work
[05:20] <pitti> mdz: they are completely orthogonal
[05:20] <sabdfl> then remove dovecot and install UW-Imap and have it Just Work
[05:20] <mdz> pitti: not if the only reason it doesn't work out of the box is that postfix is crippled
[05:20] <Keybuk> sabdfl: except if they do that, they have to remove ubuntu-desktop
[05:20] <mdz> because this works in Debian. trivially.
[05:20] <sabdfl> then replace mutt with Evo and have it Just Work
[05:20] <Kamion> Keybuk: ubuntu-base
[05:20] <pitti> sabdfl: ++
[05:20] <Keybuk> sorry, ubuntu-base
[05:21] <sabdfl> i've been digging into this and the trend towards maildir is clear
[05:21] <mdz> Keybuk: which is exactly the right thing, if you think about it
[05:21] <Keybuk> I agree Maildir is better than mailbox, and if we go Maildir we should use $HOME/Maildir
[05:21] <sabdfl> Keybuk: have you read the proposal?
[05:21] <mdz> because if we decide to switch to a different MTA, they don't want it
[05:21] <Keybuk> sabdfl: yes, I did
[05:22] <sabdfl> ~/Maildir is b0rked, because it makes something visible that should not be so
[05:22] <Keybuk> sabdfl: we could ship a default .hidden file so it's not visible in Nautilus
[05:22] <mdz> sabdfl: what about ~/Desktop?
[05:22] <sabdfl> Keybuk: would you like chewing gum with that? <duck>
[05:22] <mdz> ~/public_html...
[05:22] <pitti> The only thing I did not like in the proposal were the dot-file folders
[05:22] <sabdfl> mdz: remember Oxford? i still feel the same way :-)
[05:22] <Keybuk> sabdfl: it's better than changing *every* *single* MTA/MDA and MUA to respect ~/.maildir
[05:23] <sabdfl> Keybuk: trivial changes
[05:23] <sabdfl> i've done it on my own system and it's straightforward
[05:23] <sladen> Keybuk: trivial changes x10 && have everything work Just So   vs.   No changes and have things sometimes work  (I prefer the former)
[05:24] <Keybuk> I'd rather we didn't ship an MDA in base at all
[05:24] <Keybuk> and let people who want local delivery install one
[05:24] <sabdfl> Keybuk: agreed, however, when you install it it should work
[05:24] <pitti> Keybuk: but many packages depend on an mta
[05:24] <Keybuk> sabdfl: oh, most definitely
[05:25] <Keybuk> why doesn't postfix?  I thought Debian policy required both MTAs and MUAs to respect /var/mail/$USER ?
[05:25] <Kamion> if we change MUAs to look in ~/.maildir we should arrange that they still look in ~/Maildir if ~/.maildir isn't there
[05:25] <pitti> cron, for example
[05:25] <sabdfl> Kamion: +1
[05:25] <Keybuk> pitti: trivial to change, make it not mail if there's no sendmail
[05:25] <mdz> if postfix doesn't simply work out of the box, we've broken it, because it works in Debian
[05:25] <Keybuk> it seems to deliver properly here?
[05:25] <lamont_r> mdz: no listening leads to a configuration that most people don't want
[05:26] <sladen> Keybuk: does your local-delivery provide a sendmail -t work a like?
[05:26] <mdz> lamont_r: but local mail delivery works
[05:26] <lamont_r> yes
[05:26] <Keybuk> if I type "mutt", I get a mailbox full of debconf notes
[05:26] <pitti> Keybuk: agreed
[05:26] <mdz> likewise
[05:26] <mdz> and surely dovecot exports /var/mail by default
[05:27] <elmo> dovecot does automagic
[05:27] <elmo> to try and determine what you're doing
[05:27] <mdz> I'd like to consider separately the "make IMAP service just work" and "move to maildir" items
[05:27] <pitti> so does anybody actually want an installed default MTA on a desktop?
[05:27] <mdz> I don't
[05:27] <lamont_r> pitti: no
[05:27] <sladen> no
[05:27] <mvo__> no
[05:28] <lamont_r> local MDA has uses, but no MTA
[05:28] <pitti> so the first step seems to be obvious, right?
[05:28] <pitti> remove postfix from desktop and uncripple it again
[05:28] <Keybuk> mdz: yup (just tried it)
[05:29] <Kamion> removing postfix from base without replacing it with anything means no /usr/sbin/sendmail, which I'm fairly sure will break some things during installation
[05:29] <mdz> so we seem to have three distinct issues:
[05:29] <Kamion> (I might be wrong though)
[05:30] <mdz> 1. Standardize on maildir?, 2. Have no MTA in base?, 3. have mail service just work?
[05:30] <pitti> Kamion: Keybuk's MDA would work for this
[05:30] <mdz> but 3. seems to be a non-issue at present
[05:30] <mdz> Kamion: we would fix those things
[05:30] <pitti> mdz: 3 for bendy?
[05:30] <mdz> the most problematic, I think, is LSB
[05:30] <mdz> LSB requires an MTA
[05:30] <pitti> really?
[05:30] <pitti> not just an MDA?
[05:31] <mdz> lsb Depends: mail-transport-agent
[05:31] <Kamion> pitti: indeed, if it existed :-)
[05:31] <fabbione> Kamion: i am pretty sure a bunch of pkgs will fail to install without an MTA
[05:31] <sabdfl> 3 is an issue
[05:31] <mdz> sabdfl: using the standard spool and installing dovecot seems to work fine
[05:31] <sladen> any idea what Apple did.  They ship Postfix but I've no idea how it's configured
[05:31] <sabdfl> mdz: you only use mutt
[05:31] <pitti> Keybuk: "existed" -> Keybuk's MDA? it does exist, I already saw it
[05:31] <sabdfl> how can we work towards widespread recognition of ubuntu as a mail server if our mail components don't work together?
[05:31] <mdz> sabdfl: meaning that you are considering the case where the system is both a mail server and a desktop system where people read mail?
[05:32] <sabdfl> yes
[05:32] <mdz> rather than a traditional mail server
[05:32] <mdz> is that a case we need to optimize for?
[05:32] <sabdfl> fundamentally, we should make sure that any combination of components has the best chance of working, and working well
[05:32] <sabdfl> of course some experts will have preferences and will customise their systems
[05:32] <Keybuk> sabdfl: have you got any two examples where mail components *don't* work together?  Because it's Debian policy that they must, so if they don't, we've broken it
[05:33] <mdz> Keybuk: I think he's talking about, e.g. evolution not reading the spool
[05:33] <Kamion> Debian policy requires that stuff works together on the inbox, but not on other folders
[05:34] <Keybuk> hmm, that's actually really really hard to do with Evolution
[05:34] <Keybuk> because Evolution doesn't behave like that
[05:34] <Keybuk> the "Local" thing is actually a special thing built-in to evo
[05:34] <sabdfl> evo does do maildir
[05:34] <Keybuk> and you really can't persuade it to read /var/mail/$USER instead, without adding an account
[05:34] <Keybuk> sabdfl: yeah, but *only* if you add an Account
[05:34] <Keybuk> and that has to have things like a real name, and e-mail address associated with it
[05:35] <ogra> and a outgoing mailserver
[05:37] <sladen> Keybuk: could those be created by adduser/useradd when copying skel ?  (GECOS and $USER@localhost)
[05:37] <Keybuk> sladen: meh, it'd involve adding .gconf and stuff
[05:38] <Keybuk> welcome back Lunchpad
[05:38] <sabdfl> ;-)
[05:39] <mdz> sabdfl: should we be considering this in a Hoary context?
[05:39] <sabdfl> any further comments?
[05:39] <sabdfl> mdz: your call, bendy for certain
[05:40] <mdz> if I have a choice in the matter, this would be a bendy feature
[05:40] <mdz> we don't seem to have a consensus yet
[05:40] <mdz> we should have more discussion, and if we can do it for hoary, we will
[05:41] <mdz> but I don't think we can commit to it yet
[05:41] <sabdfl> ok
[05:41] <mdz> I think that maildir is sane
[05:41] <pitti> mdz: hmm, at least the default MTA should be settled for Hoary IMHO
[05:41] <lamont_r> mdz: is this your #1 & 3?
[05:41] <Keybuk> I like the idea of moving from /var/mail/$USER to $HOME/Maildir, I don't like the idea of changing that hugely-standard location (though I can see why people might desire it)
[05:41] <mdz> pitti: agreed
[05:41] <mdz> lamont_r: this is regarding #3
[05:42] <mdz> I have no concrete argument with maildir as a standard mail store
[05:42] <sabdfl> ok. should we move on to ogra?
[05:42] <lamont_r> how about mdz's #2?
[05:42] <mdz> as to whether we should go forth and modify the defaults of all mail software in Ubuntu, that needs to be considered as a release goal in my opinion
[05:42] <sabdfl> mdz: will need quite a bt of testing to make sure we don't break the GoldenRule
[05:42] <mdz> #2 was: should we remove the MTA from base in hoary?
[05:43] <sabdfl> new conf only
[05:43] <lamont_r> yes
[05:43] <mdz> I think we should
[05:43] <lamont_r> mdz: yes it was, and yes we should
[05:43] <mdz> anyone else have an opinion or comment?
[05:43] <sabdfl> Kamion: are you happy we can remove postfix and have the installer still work?
[05:43] <Keybuk> I think no MTA or MDA (not even my bit of Python), fix cron and debconf to only send mail if there's sendmail on the system -- gives server folk free reign to pick an MTA/MDA of choice without conflict
[05:43] <lamont_r> the question that then comes up is: do we provide some thing (ala Keybuk's code), or not?
[05:44] <mdz> Keybuk: to be honest, I think mail is the wrong thing for debconf anyway
[05:44] <sabdfl> Keybuk: does your code have a life outside of birmingham?
[05:44] <mdz> Keybuk: we should turn those into the hooks that mvo and I discussed
[05:44] <Keybuk> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/sendmail.py
[05:44] <sabdfl> in the sense of a community, outside interest, outside use?
[05:44] <pitti> Keybuk: two issues: LSB and how people get notified about failed crons and debconf stuff=
[05:44] <Keybuk> was written in Matar, and I mailed it to -devel when we first had this discussion :)
[05:44] <sabdfl> right
[05:45] <sabdfl> what about nullmail and similar local-only mailers?
[05:45] <Keybuk> pitti: well, the problem there is people don't, because they don't know they even have local mail until they exit ssh or something :p
[05:45] <Kamion> sabdfl: I'd only be confident about that with something else providing /usr/sbin/sendmail in its place
[05:45] <Keybuk> nullmailer is a transfer agent, not a local-delivery agent fwir
[05:45] <sabdfl> ok
[05:45] <mdz> the basis for my opinion about removing it is that having local-only delivery isn't really useful
[05:45] <lamont_r> mdz++++
[05:45] <mdz> sendmail.py doesn't really address that
[05:46] <mdz> for Warty, we considered ourselves to be "stuck" with having local mail, because things like cron, at, debconf, etc. relied on it
[05:46] <lamont_r> well, it provides local-only delviery, which we agreed isn't really useful
[05:46] <mdz> but for hoary, we have the freedom to consider those bugs if needed
[05:46] <lamont_r> bugs
[05:46] <pitti> Keybuk: okay, agreed. But still, LSB cries for sendmail
[05:46] <Kamion> Keybuk: debconf just calls /usr/bin/mail -s, and tolerates it being absent
[05:46] <Keybuk> pitti: LSB cries for RPM too, doesn't it?
[05:47] <lamont_r> mdz: although I have personal religious issues with all the packages that Depend: exim4 | mail-transport-agent
[05:47] <pitti> Keybuk: we have alien :-)
[05:47] <mdz> Kamion: perfect
[05:47] <pitti> Keybuk: it's installed by default just to satisfy LSB, I think
[05:47] <sabdfl> lamont_r: we can fix 'em ;-)
[05:47] <Kamion> although I think the GNOME frontend might pop up an error dialog box in that case; we'd want to tweak that
[05:47] <mdz> pitti: yes, indirectly
[05:47] <lamont_r> sabdfl: thanks.  I'll quote you on that. :-)
[05:47] <azeem> "use exim4 or a real MTA"
[05:47] <mdz> Kamion: if and when the GNOME frontend becomes viable
[05:48] <sabdfl> mdz: isn't it useful to think that a local mailer allows debconf etc to continue as they currently do, and that if our mail components work together then ANY mail client will immediately see that mail?
[05:48] <mdz> so it sounds like at most, we should only need to fix cron and at
[05:48] <mdz> and possibly sudo
[05:49] <lamont_r> mdz: changing Depends: mta to Recommends: mta???
[05:49] <ogra> is all this easy addressable on upgrades from warty ?
[05:49] <lamont_r> mdz: and then postfix* move from base to ship
[05:50] <mdz> sabdfl: I don't have a use case which isn't better satisfied by other functionality in the system
[05:50] <mdz> debconf notes _should_ be blackholed by default unless a sysadmin has configured mail, because they only confuse users
[05:50] <mdz> ones which are relevant to users should become post-install hooks
[05:50] <mdz> ogra: warty upgrades would retain postfix
[05:50] <mdz> though the release notes would recommend removing it if it's unused
[05:50] <ogra> ah, ok...but that means i get a crippled hoary then
[05:50] <mdz> cron errors _should_ be blackholed unless a sysadmin has configured mail, because those confuse users even more
[05:51] <Kamion> erk, users wouldn't get errors from their crontabs?
[05:51] <Kamion> I think that will be a support burden
[05:51] <sabdfl> Kamion: agreed
[05:51] <Kamion> "where did the errors go?" "uh ... nowhere"
[05:51] <mdz> I think you guys are talking about a different kind of "user"
[05:51] <Keybuk> Kamion: if users are writing crontabs, they're likely to be the kind of user who's installed an mda of their own
[05:51] <lamont_r> ogra: how so?  If you prefer a different MTA, then once you upgrade to hoary, installing it (and removing postfix) would not remove ubuntu-base
[05:51] <mdz> a user who can write crontabs can configure mail, too
[05:51] <Kamion> I think throwing away errors is a bug, period
[05:52] <Kamion> mdz: yes but if they're coming from another system they might not realise that they need to
[05:52] <ogra> erm, dont cron errors already go in syslog 
[05:52] <jbailey> A user who can write crontabs might not have permission to install mail.
[05:52] <Kamion> ogra: news to me if they do
[05:52] <mdz> jbailey: a user without permission is a client on a server, and needs to ask their admin to set things up
[05:52] <mdz> ogra: no, they don't
[05:52] <Kamion> if we're disabling mail, we need to come up with somewhere else to put cron errors
[05:52] <jbailey> Just refering back to the support nightmare.
[05:52] <mdz> Kamion: crontab could emit a warning
[05:52] <Kamion> syslog would be fine
[05:53] <mdz> "If you want to receive errors, install a mail-transport-agent"
[05:53] <Kamion> although potentially an information leak, actually
[05:53] <sabdfl> Kamion, jbailey: agreed, I think a minimal local-delivery-only agent is the answer
[05:53] <mdz> syslog would need to be root-only
[05:53] <Kamion> ugh
[05:53] <Kamion> systems like that are such a pain
[05:53] <Kamion> you can never find out what's going on
[05:53] <sladen> AFAICT, the wording is ''requires /usr/sbin/sendmail *if* the system provides a sendmail compatible MTA'' ... doesn't say anything about /not/ providing a sendmail-compatible
[05:53] <mdz> local unix mail is a wart on our desktop, and an annoyance on our server
[05:53] <Kamion> mdz: crontab emitting a warning would be a reasonable option
[05:53] <lamont_r> crontab emit a warning
[05:54] <jbailey> sladen: Where are you looking?  Chapter 3 seems to say that Table 3-1 lists the Commands and Utilities required to be present on a conforming system.  sendmail is in the list.
[05:54] <sabdfl> mdz: any serious MTA would replace it, right?
[05:54] <sabdfl> this gives us crontab behaviour one would expect
[05:54] <sabdfl> we can improve the debconf msgs so they are less confusing, or hook them as you described
[05:55] <mdz> sabdfl: a serious unix mail user either wants postfix (and is thwarted by our crippled default configuration) or wants something else anyway
[05:55] <sabdfl> thwarted? surely it would be a drop-in replacement?
[05:55] <lamont_r> sabdfl: crontab would only emit the warning if /usr/sbin/sendmail was absent
[05:55] <mdz> the hook stuff, by the way, is: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/InteractiveUpgradeHooks
[05:55] <Kamion> mdz: s/user/admin/; I've never had a need to care what MTA was installed on a system where I was a mere user
[05:55] <lamont_r> sabdfl: they expect the config to work, and the crippled default config confuses the hell out of most of the less expert users
[05:55] <Kamion> well, not beyond knowing where the logs were
[05:55] <mdz> Kamion: agreed
[05:56] <sladen> jbailey: that was FHS, I guess LSB ch.3 supersedes that...
[05:56] <mdz> mail logs aren't generally readable by unprivileged users anyway
[05:56] <Kamion> that's a bug :-)
[05:56] <ogra> from my woody server: /var/log/syslog.0:Jan 18 06:23:01 aleph /USR/SBIN/CRON[24496] : (mail) CMD (  if [ -x /usr/sbin/exim -a -f /etc/exim/exim.conf ] ; then /usr/sbin/exim -q ; fi)
[05:56] <ogra> it obviously is possible
[05:56] <mdz> sabdfl: if they want postfix, postfix is already there (but broken), so they can't just install it
[05:56] <mdz> sabdfl: if they want something else, they need to install it anyway
[05:56] <mdz> so the presence of a crippled postfix in base doesn't satisfy either use case
[05:57] <sabdfl> mdz: i was proposing a simple local-only mta after install, and a proper postfix on request
[05:57] <mdz> so if it isn't relative to a sysadmin, and isn't relevant to a desktop user, I think we should remove it
[05:57] <mdz> sabdfl: that addresses those two problems, yes
[05:57] <sabdfl> local-only being keybuks or similar
[05:57] <mdz> but not the problem of local-only mail in the desktop
[05:57] <mdz> which is that it grows until it consumes the disk
[05:57] <lamont_r> sabdfl: the issue there is that installing _any_ mta would cause ubuntu-base to be removed
[05:58] <sabdfl> hm...
[05:58] <mdz> lamont_r: if that's the only issue, we can address it
[05:58] <lamont_r> mdz: well, one of several, as you note
[05:58] <sabdfl> lamont_r: even if ubuntu-base depends on something provided by both the local-only and postfix / exim / sendmail?
[05:58] <lamont_r> sabdfl: that could work
[05:58] <Kamion> mdz: applet that pops up when /var/mail/$USER is non-empty?
[05:59] <Keybuk> Kamion: what would it give you to read it?
[05:59] <Kamion> you could call it "system events" ;)
[05:59] <Kamion> Keybuk: no idea
[05:59] <Kamion> gnome-terminal -e mail ;)
[05:59] <ogra> hehe
[05:59] <mdz> Kamion: the messages the user would find in there are entirely cryptic to the average user
[05:59] <mdz> meaningless and/or frightening
[05:59] <lamont_r> Kamion: or snarf it into whatever format evo wants it in...
[05:59] <mdz> they should not be presented to the user at all, in my opinion
[05:59] <lamont_r> mdz++
[06:00] <Keybuk> most of the messages we're talking about are really cryptic debconf notes or random output from cron.monthly
[06:00] <mdz> if the man page database isn't being regenerated properly, the user doesn't need to hear about that; we just need to fix it
[06:00] <mdz> Keybuk: exactly
[06:00] <mdz> scrollkeeper blowing up
[06:00] <jbailey> If they're kept but not displayed, they need to be pruned over time.
[06:00] <mdz> debconf saying "if you modified this random configuration file, you need to do X"
[06:00] <mdz> files in /lost+found
[06:00] <mdz> these are the only kinds of mail found in the default install
[06:01] <lamont_r> no mta by default, crontab emits a warning.
[06:01] <mdz> and so it doesn't seem worth the effort of developing tools to help the user see them
[06:01] <Kamion> mdz: we'll never find out that we need to fix it, of course
[06:01] <mdz> Kamion: we will, they won't
[06:01] <Kamion> we won't get bug reports
[06:01] <lamont_r> Kamion: we will from any users that install an mta
[06:01] <mdz> Kamion: we won't get bug reports from most users anyway
[06:01] <lamont_r> which is many
[06:01] <mdz> they would read the message, not understand it, delete it, and move on
[06:02] <lamont_r> and we don't want the bug reports from the rest^U
[06:02] <lamont_r> ok - untrue, and all that
[06:02] <sladen> Kamion: surely debbugs won't function without an MTA :)
[06:02] <lamont_r> sladen: if it hits a web interface it will
[06:02] <lamont_r> or deliveres directly to a named host's smtp port
[06:03] <Kamion> sladen: surely Ubuntu doesn't use debbugs
[06:03] <lamont_r> (yes, either of those is problematic)
[06:03] <lamont_r> not installed on my system...
[06:03] <mdz> if we remove postfix from base, we solve: 1) the religious MTA issue, letting a sysadmin choose the one they want, 2) the huge, under-acknowledged bug of the local mail spool growing without bound, 3) potential local security issues in the default install (though mitigated by postfix's design)
[06:04] <mdz> replacing it with Keybuk's local-only agent solves #3
[06:04] <Kamion> mdz: TBH I'd be interested to see a system where it grows without bound more quickly than the rate of attrition to changelog.gz, but yeah
[06:04] <lamont_r> 4) the number of complaints,etc on #ubuntu about the mta being broken
[06:05] <ogra> mdz: 5) bend all daemons to write to a central log instead of mailing (to not loose the msgs) ?
[06:05] <lamont_r> ogra: that's not something we fix, that's somethign that maybe needs to be done
[06:05] <ogra> ubuntu_desktop.log :)
[06:05] <mdz> ogra: that is a problem to be solved?
[06:05] <Keybuk> cron seems to already syslog when it starts a cron, should be trivial to also log if it fails
[06:05] <Kamion> we could then apply logrotate to those logs
[06:06] <Kamion> and solve the disk-usage problem
[06:06] <ogra> Kamion: thats the idea :)
[06:06] <sabdfl> Keybuk: how confident are you in your code for hoary?
[06:06] <lamont_r> ugh. is pop-con in desktop?
[06:06] <mdz> Keybuk: it could log a message saying "it failed", but not stderr
[06:06] <mdz> which is fairly pointless
[06:06] <mdz> lamont_r: it is, but thom modified it to use HTTP POST
[06:07] <lamont_r> woot
[06:07] <mdz> and it's disabled by default anyawy
[06:07] <lamont_r> I prefer deleted entirely
[06:07] <lamont_r> (mta, not popcon)
[06:07] <mdz> because a) enabling it by default is a privacy issue, and b) we didn't want to ask an extra question
[06:07] <Keybuk> sabdfl: *shrug* it's trivial code, it's mostly just Python's standard modules joined together
[06:07] <sabdfl> ok
[06:08] <fabbione> time to change the pix?
[06:08] <mdz> change its diaper?
[06:08] <ogra> lol
[06:08] <ogra> mdz: its ??
[06:08] <elmo> it's his BT ADSL line that keeps spassing out, not the PIX
[06:09] <lamont_r> we should really set him up a proper nat box you know...
[06:09] <fabbione> time to change ADSL?
[06:09] <Keybuk> fabbione: seems to be a UK-wide problem
[06:09] <Keybuk> mine's been doing it all day too
[06:09] <fabbione> ah ok
[06:09] <lamont_r> time to change countries?
[06:09] <ogra> Keybuk: no cable in the uk ?
[06:09] <Keybuk> Mark is the only other person I know with the same Efficient-based line
[06:10] <lamont_r> wb
[06:10] <sabdfl> erk
[06:10] <sabdfl> connection issues
[06:10] <mdz> I don't have any real problem with moving to Keybuk's MTA as an incremental improvement
[06:10] <mdz> but it only addresses a small portion of the problem in my opinion
[06:10] <sabdfl> my vote is for (1) simple local-only keybuk solution, and (2) MailStorageStandardisation
[06:10] <mdz> and it introduces some new ones
[06:11] <mdz> sabdfl: do you feel that we should present cron errors and debconf notes to the user by default?
[06:11] <mdz> because that would seem to be the result of implementing MailStorageStandardisation without doing something to suppress those
[06:12] <sabdfl> mdz: your call
[06:12] <sabdfl> yes, if we can make them easy to delete
[06:12] <lamont_r> mdz: we could do that for bendy, and ship no-mta for hoary?
[06:12] <mdz> and add a "what is all this confusing crap in my mailbox" entry to the FAQ?
[06:12] <sladen> only if you can also present them with a button that says ''click here to let me fix it for you''
[06:13] <sabdfl> we should review the most common messages for, erm, friendliness
[06:13] <Kamion> it would be easy to merely log debconf notes somewhere rather than shipping them, and I think we should do that
[06:13] <sabdfl> Kamion: +1
[06:13] <Kamion> er, s/shipping/mailing/
[06:13] <lamont_r> Kamion: pruning over time?
[06:13] <Kamion> lamont_r: logrotate
[06:13] <ogra> cron as well....
[06:13] <lamont_r> 'k
[06:13] <mdz> cron is not so straightforward, being multi-user
[06:13] <Kamion> root cron jobs could be logged, and others mailed
[06:13] <mdz> ideally errors would get written to ~user/.cron/log or something
[06:14] <ogra> mdz: as i showed before, on woddy it writes to syslog by default
[06:14] <sladen> lamont_r: would it be possible to never show the same error twice (eg, if they saw it yesterday, don't show it them again today)
[06:14] <Kamion> that would get rid of the "cron.monthly said stuff I don't care about" problem
[06:14] <sabdfl> mdz: this one i'd like to make visible :-)
[06:14] <sivang> or a "system notification" buddy :)
[06:14] <mdz> ogra: show me again?
[06:14] <sabdfl> ~/cron.log
[06:14] <ogra> /var/log/syslog.0:Jan 18 06:25:01 aleph /USR/SBIN/CRON[24665] : (root) CMD (test -e /usr/sbin/anacron || run-parts --report /etc/cron.daily)
[06:14] <sabdfl> when it's created, put a baner at the top with instructions
[06:14] <mdz> ogra: that is not what we are talking about
[06:14] <Kamion> ogra: I think that's logging the job that got run, not its stderr output
[06:14] <mdz> ogra: we are talking about when a command fails and outputs an error
[06:15] <mdz> currently, those are sent via email
[06:15] <sabdfl> mdz: the reason being, it's something we want the user to notice and are happy for him to delete
[06:15] <ogra> ahh, ok...so bend stdout to /var/log/syslog then
[06:15] <Kamion> mdz: it might also be worth getting rid of the "add initial user to /etc/aliases" thing
[06:15] <mdz> ogra: we discussed some time earlier why that isn't feasible (security)
[06:15] <ogra> ok
[06:15] <sladen> what about a panel-applet that is installed but not enabled by default---right-click + add if required
[06:15] <mdz> Kamion: leave root mail in root's box?
[06:15] <sivang> sladen: my thought exactly
[06:15] <Kamion> mdz: yes, you've already made it pretty clear that you don't want the user bothered by it
[06:16] <Kamion> and the disk space thing is no worse that way
[06:16] <Kamion> plus it's more clearly separated
[06:16] <mdz> it's just shuffling the cruft around
[06:16] <ogra> configuring logrotate to rotate /var/mail/root ?
[06:16] <Kamion> sure but I think it's a better place for the cruft pending us fixing it
[06:16] <Kamion> and easier to find the cruft
[06:16] <mdz> ogra: please, be serious :-P
[06:16] <ogra> :)
[06:17] <sladen> I suspect they only message the user is bothered about is ''excessive IDE TimeOuts detected, your disk is shagged''---and that's something that's not reported at the moment anyway
[06:17] <mdz> I maintain that there is nothing currently sent via email in the default install that a user (not a sysadmin) should see
[06:18] <sabdfl> ok
[06:18] <Kamion> hence let's remove the alias as a simple one-stop guarantee of that, first off
[06:18] <mdz> Kamion: both root's spool and the user's spool are equally invisible in the desktop
[06:18] <sabdfl> mdz: if that's the case let's go with kamion's loggin proposal for debconf notes
[06:19] <mdz> we'd need to educate sysadmins to read that log
[06:19] <sivang> sladen: so a special "admin only applet" to collect all of those msgs out of the mail spool file...
[06:20] <Keybuk> meh, a mail client panel applet ?!
[06:20] <sabdfl> sivang, mdz: we could expose that log through Desktop -> Administration -> Logs
[06:20] <mdz> considering this from a hoary perspective, the biggest bang/buck we get is by removing postfix from base
[06:20] <Keybuk> sabdfl: we already have Applications -> System Tools -> System Log Viewer
[06:20] <lamont_r> mdz: all else sounds rather bendy-timeframe
[06:20] <sabdfl> Keybuk: right, the debconf stuff could link into that?
[06:21] <ogra> sabdfl: any log could
[06:21] <Keybuk> sabdfl: yeah, we make debconf and cron spit to syslog so they appear there
[06:21] <sabdfl> mdz: i'd like to do the MailStorageStandardisation for at least core apps
[06:21] <mdz> Keybuk: the one which helpfully shows only auth.log?
[06:21] <sladen> Keybuk: sudo csplit '^From ' /var/mail/root | tail -1
[06:21] <Keybuk> mdz: that's just a silly default
[06:21] <ogra> which should be changed :)
[06:21] <Kamion> I don't think that syslog is a good place for debconf notes
[06:22] <mdz> it's an application in search of a use case
[06:22] <sabdfl> Keybuk: syslog isn't the right place for that though
[06:22] <sabdfl> we need something else
[06:22] <sabdfl> system events?
[06:22] <Keybuk> why isn't syslog the right place?
[06:22] <Kamion> they have a much longer lifetime of potential interest than most stuff in syslog, and are generated much less often
[06:22] <sladen> System Log Viewer can probably be taught to read other logs by just passing them on the command line?
[06:22] <sabdfl> also, they are messages, not lines
[06:22] <Kamion> my syslog is full of junk, debconf notes are only generated on upgrades
[06:22] <mdz> we're running long on time here; is there a reason we need to discuss this during the TB meeting rather than on ubuntu-devel?
[06:22] <sabdfl> nope
[06:22] <Kamion> I want to be able to go back to the last few upgrades
[06:22] <mdz> we'll get wider feedback there
[06:23] <Keybuk> sladen: it has a File -> Open menu item
[06:23] <sabdfl> let's go on to ogra's proposal
[06:23] <mdz> agreed
[06:23] <lamont_r> mdz: is concensus then that we remove postfix from base?  and do we have consensus on whether or not to provide a default mda?
[06:24] <mdz> the question seems to be, should universe uploaders be able to add new packages to universe?
[06:24] <mdz> ogra: is that an accurate characterization?
[06:24] <ogra> non debian packages
[06:24] <Keybuk> don't non-debian packages go into multiverse?
[06:24] <ogra> selfmade or foreign packaged ones that are not in debian yet
[06:24] <Keybuk> or am I confused?
[06:24] <lamont_r> Keybuk: no
[06:24] <pitti> yeah, dbus-1 :-)
[06:24] <mdz> Keybuk: no, non-ubuntu-license-compliant packages go there
[06:24] <pitti> pop up a dialog on a debconf note?
[06:24] <sladen> Keybuk: I was under the impression  multiverse  was just non-free stuff
[06:25] <mdz> ogra: I don't think it's relevant where the packages originate
[06:25] <mdz> besides, new packages from Debian are automatically added anyway
[06:25] <ogra> as an example i have the graveman package since some weeks on my server, i would like to upload it to have a gtk burning app....
[06:25] <mdz> I think that universe uploaders should absolutely be able to upload new packages
[06:25] <ogra> ...but currently it would involve agreement of jdum or mdz
[06:25] <mdz> they should of course be reviewed before being accepted
[06:26] <ogra> jdub even
[06:26] <Riddell> I have already added one new package to universe and have another one awaiting review
[06:26] <ogra> so i think there should be a written policy
[06:26] <ogra> that also prevents us from someone loading up a "nazi shooter" for instance
[06:26] <mdz> ogra: what would the policy cover?
[06:26] <sabdfl> reviewed by?
[06:27] <mdz> sabdfl: currently, elmo
[06:27] <sabdfl> ok
[06:27] <mdz> with appeal to others where appropriate
[06:27] <jbailey> What happens when a new universe package conflicts a new Debian package?
[06:27] <sabdfl> let elmo make the licence call on universe vs multiverse, for one
[06:27] <mdz> (security review by pitti, etc.)
[06:27] <ogra> i would like to have it in a way that only critical things steal your time mdz
[06:27] <ogra> or the others...
[06:27] <mdz> ogra: my position is that anyone with upload privileges should be able to submit new packages for review
[06:27] <sabdfl> how can we reduce the impact on pitti/mdz/elmo?
[06:28] <ogra> thts my point sabdfl :)
[06:28] <mdz> I don't think I need to be involved at all
[06:28] <pitti> well, we talk about universe packages, right?
[06:28] <elmo> mdz: i think we should concentrate on security reviewing main first?
[06:28] <ogra> pitti: yup
[06:28] <mdz> elmo: yes
[06:28] <pitti> so I don't think we need an overly extensive review
[06:28] <mdz> elmo: I meant in the context of "this looks fishy to me, pitti should look at it first"
[06:28] <elmo> ok
[06:29] <mdz> elmo: you'll shout if you're inundated with packages and we need to distribute that duty more, right?
[06:29] <elmo> sure
[06:29] <mdz> but I think it'll be a trickle for some time yet
[06:29] <pitti> would it be possible to put new packages into a public queue?
[06:29] <pitti> so that anybody can review it?
[06:30] <ogra> or ist it probably a job for the MOTU master ?
[06:30] <sladen> universe-staging?
[06:30] <pitti> as soon as two members/motus give thumbs up, it's approved to universe?
[06:30] <mdz> pitti: mentors.debian.net-a-like
[06:30] <pitti> right
[06:30] <mdz> I think that's a good idea, but there's no pressing need for it yet
[06:30] <elmo> longer term launchpad solves this
[06:31] <mdz> good point
[06:31] <pitti> mdz: I think looking at the list of files shipped in the debs (correct paths, no setuid etc.) would be a good first and quick test
[06:31] <elmo> I don't think we should invest any energy into solving this until the number of NEW packages becomes a problem for me
[06:31] <mdz> ogra: are you satisfied with the solution that has been described?
[06:31] <mdz> elmo++
[06:31] <ogra> yup :)
[06:31] <sabdfl> is christoph haas around?
[06:31] <ogra> nope
[06:31] <mdz> doesn't seem to be
[06:32] <mdz> he's ChrisH I believe
[06:32] <ogra> i pinged him in -de
[06:32] <sivang> I've called on him let's see if he responds
[06:32] <sabdfl> elmo: can i ask you to ping us if you aren't able to approve / decline a package within two working days?
[06:32] <mdz> yes, we did decide to make that type of commitment in Mataro
[06:32] <sabdfl> we should promise the MOTU that level of service
[06:33] <elmo> *shrug* k
[06:33] <sabdfl> if we can't it's a bug on our processes, and we'll need to decentralise further
[06:33] <mdz> but if someone unknown uploads a huge and complex package, there is no guarantee that we will be able to devote resources to the review within that time
[06:33] <ogra> sabdfl: i think MOTU should bother canonical as less as it can...
[06:33] <sabdfl> i'd like universe / multiverse to be relatively liberal
[06:33] <sabdfl> ogra: agreed
[06:33] <sabdfl> perhaps if two MOTU have approved the package it goes straight in?
[06:34] <sabdfl> barring CoC issues ("nazi shooters")
[06:34] <elmo> and license issues
[06:34] <sabdfl> elmo: +1
[06:34] <sabdfl> mdz: that's reasonable, yes
[06:34] <sabdfl> ok ogra I think that's an answer for your question
[06:35] <ogra> yup...
[06:36] <mdz> sladen: are you applying for member status or maintainer/uploader status?
[06:36] <ogra> the prob is that we currently are only two MOTUs ..... 
[06:36] <ogra> ahh, kdz was faster again :)
[06:36] <ogra> mdz
[06:36] <sabdfl> sladen: or MOTU status :-)
[06:36] <sladen> mdz: I think member, (immediately followed by committer/maintainer) ?
[06:36] <mdz> ogra: that will provide incentive for you to recruit new MOTU ;-)
[06:36] <ogra> yay !
[06:37] <mdz> members need a CC vote according to the wiki process
[06:37] <sabdfl> i think we have cc present
[06:37] <sabdfl> mako? elmo? kamion?
[06:37] <elmo> sorry what are we voting on?  universe only, or everything?
[06:37] <mdz> we have 3/4
[06:38] <sladen> I think I'm going to need sysvinit, mkinitrd-tools, initrd-tools, grub(?), $xorg_resolution_detect, gdm, usplash-*, in the next couple of weeks (all of which are in main)
[06:38] <sabdfl> for sladen, membership
[06:38] <sabdfl> tb will do upload
[06:38] <elmo> uh
[06:38] <sivang> people who get approved by CC are eligable for voting afterwards in CC meetings?
[06:38] <sabdfl> sivang: vote to confirm CC appointments
[06:38] <ogra> sabdfl: we are in TB...so you could do both ;)
[06:39] <sivang> sabdfl: ok.
[06:39] <mdz> ogra: we will
[06:39] <sabdfl> yes
[06:39] <elmo> I wish these damn procedures would stabilize, they seem to change everytime I blink
[06:39] <sabdfl> elmo, kamion?
[06:39] <sivang> elmo: I get that feeling also ;-)
[06:39] <sabdfl> membership for sladen. recognises a "significant and ongoing contribution"
[06:39] <mdz> A person who wants to become a member should:
[06:39] <mdz>       Be contributing. Very wide definition of contributing: Coding, writing, art-work, etc. Everybody can be pa rt of the community. Contributions should be significant.
[06:39] <mdz>       Have good testimonials / recommendations from others in the community.
[06:39] <mdz>       Have a wiki-page with stuff he is working in / has worked on.
[06:39] <mdz>       Community Council votes whether a person can become a member.
[06:39] <haggai> elmo: stop blinking so slowly then :)
[06:40] <Kamion> sorry, just a sec
[06:40] <sabdfl> thpecial
[06:40] <mdz> I can speak for sladen's contributions to date being significant
[06:40] <elmo> sabdfl: does that mean CC no longer have any say on whether a person can upload to main?
[06:40] <sabdfl> elmo: yes
[06:40] <sabdfl> cc is membership, which votes on cc appointments and procedural amendments etc
[06:40] <sabdfl> tb is upload, and votes on tb appointments
[06:41] <Kamion> I'm fine with membership for sladen on the basis of ongoing usplash work and other contributions
[06:41] <mdz> wiki page is present and linked from the agenda
[06:41] <sabdfl> possibly also votes on technical items
[06:41] <sabdfl> elmo?
[06:41] <elmo> *shrug* fine
[06:41] <ogra> ahh, which answers my question from the beginning...
[06:41] <sabdfl> sladen gets my vote too, welcome aboard
[06:41] <sivang> do we have a list of the wiki of CC members already
[06:41] <sivang> ?
[06:42] <mdz> sladen: congratulations
[06:42] <sivang> s/of/on
[06:42] <sabdfl> sivang: no, we should have, could you create that please?
[06:42] <ogra> yay, hi sladenMOTU
[06:42] <sivang> sladen: congerts.
[06:42] <sabdfl> we have a spec which the launchpad team will implement
[06:42] <sabdfl> that will publish the membership list on launchpad.ubuntu.com
[06:42] <sabdfl> Ubuntites unite!
[06:42] <mdz> sivang: CC members, or Ubuntu members?
[06:42] <mdz> CC members are on the website
[06:43] <sivang> mdz: link?
[06:43] <mdz> sivang: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/council
[06:43] <mdz> but I think you're talking about Ubuntu members
[06:43] <mdz> since there is no list that I know of
[06:43] <sabdfl> ok, i think we are done with the agenda
[06:43] <mdz> and there definitely should be!
[06:43] <sabdfl> any other business?
[06:43] <mdz> sabdfl: not quite
[06:43] <sivang> yes,
[06:43] <sladen> sladen upload?
[06:43] <mdz> sladen applied for upload privileges
[06:43] <sabdfl> true
[06:43] <ogra> sladen: go 
[06:43] <sivang> I was adviced by mako and jdub and now pitti, to request a package for hebrew fonts to get in main,
[06:43] <sivang> namel culmus.
[06:44] <sivang> *namely
[06:44] <mdz> I have authenticated sladen's gpg key myself, if I'm not mistaken, so I'm satisfied with that requirement
[06:44] <ogra> culmus was also requested in ubuntu-devel ML
[06:44] <mdz> we don't have a lot of guidelines for upload status at this point
[06:45] <sabdfl> mdz, keybuk, upload for sladen to universe plus sysvinit, mkinitrd-tools, initrd-tools, grub(?), $xorg_resolution_detect, gdm, usplash-*
[06:45] <Keybuk> I don't have any problem with sladen
[06:45] <mdz> or simply unlimited?
[06:45] <elmo> guys, this "per package" thing is completely out of left-field
[06:45] <Keybuk> (in general)
[06:45] <mdz> I think having a huge list of packages is a bit silly
[06:45] <elmo> no one told me about it --> katie has no support for it
[06:45] <sabdfl> elmo: don't worry, we'll manage it socially for the moment
[06:45] <sivang> mdz: if I Was approved by the CC , am I on the CC , or and Ubuntu member? :)
[06:45] <sabdfl> soyuz will automate it
[06:46] <mdz> if we trust someone to upload an essential package, we trust them to upload anything
[06:46] <mdz> sivang: you are an Ubuntu member
[06:46] <mdz> sivang: sabdfl appoints new CC members
[06:46] <sabdfl> nominates
[06:46] <sivang> mdz: ah ok :) now that made clea some stuff :)
[06:46] <elmo> sabdfl: I'd really rather we didn't
[06:46] <sabdfl> sivang votes to confirm :-)
[06:46] <mdz> sabdfl: website says appoints
[06:46] <sivang> sabdfl: hehe , cool.
[06:46] <sabdfl> ok, i should change it
[06:47] <sabdfl> can't appoint till its confirmed :-)
[06:47] <sabdfl> we need a *picture* not another document
[06:47] <mdz> ok, so the matter at hand
[06:47] <mdz> as I said, there aren't any guidelines in place for us regarding confirmation of upload status
[06:47] <sivang> sabdfl: nominates sounds more prestigues...;-)
[06:47] <sabdfl> is just awaiting keybuk's vote
[06:47] <ogra> cant sladen just agree he limits his uploads to the named packages and we all belive him ?
[06:47] <sabdfl> yes
[06:47] <mdz> but in my opinion, it's a matter of trusting the person not to exceed their limits
[06:48] <Keybuk> sabdfl: sorry, which?  (having slight connectivity problems and getting things in bursts)
[06:48] <sabdfl> mdz: in future we will automate this, for now, it's just social
[06:48] <sabdfl> sladen, upload to universe plus a bunch of break-my-ubuntu packages ;-)
 I don't have any problem with sladen
[06:48] <Keybuk> :p
[06:48] <mdz> I don't think it's sensible to saddle sladen with a list of packages in main that he is allowed to upload
[06:48] <mdz> because it means revisiting the issue when that list changes with his work
[06:49] <mdz> Keybuk: unrestricted main?
[06:49] <Keybuk> mdz: I don't have a problem with main in general
[06:49] <mdz> based on his participation so far, my feeling is that he won't do anything silly in main
[06:49] <sladen> granted.  It would be inconvient---there maybe some others than come into play.  I'm happy to ping socially before doing so
[06:50] <sabdfl> great
[06:50] <ogra> mdz: else we wll find out where he lives :p
[06:50] <Keybuk> ogra: oh, it's easy to find sladen ... just say the words "free bar", and he mysteriously turns up <g>
[06:50] <ogra> lol
[06:50] <mdz> and on that basis I have no problem with him uploading packages in main
[06:50] <sladen> ogra: other side of town from sabdfl.  I'm sure it'll pop on the Victoria Line and bring the Heavies if needed
[06:51] <sladen> he'll
[06:51] <ogra> *g*
[06:51] <mdz> sabdfl: you voted?
[06:51] <sabdfl> yes, +1 to sladen, unlimited
 is just awaiting keybuk's vote
[06:52] <mdz> ok, sounds like we're done
[06:52] <sabdfl> sladen, congrats and thanks
[06:52] <ogra> err, one last question....
[06:52] <sivang> anybody saw my fonts package question? ;)
[06:52] <ogra> what turned out with the MOTU Master ?
[06:52] <ogra> do we have one ?
[06:52] <mdz> sivang: on the agenda?
[06:53] <mdz> ogra: that's a CC matter
[06:53] <ogra> ok
[06:53] <sivang> mdz: hrm no, I was away for quite some time and pitti noted this to me only when the meeting was one hour in.
[06:53] <mdz> ogra: and I thought it was decided at the CC meeting
[06:53] <sabdfl> thans everybody
[06:53] <ogra> mdz: i thought there was no answer from either haggai or ChrisH
[06:54] <mdz> sivang: we have been here two hours; add it to the agenda for the next meeting
[06:54] <sivang> mdz: sure, no prob, and I apologize.
[06:54] <mdz> ogra: I think they were appointed, pending their approval of themselves ;-)
[06:54] <mdz> thanks, everyone
[06:54] <ChrisH> ogra: No public answer at least. :)
[06:54] <mdz> adjourned
[06:54] <sabdfl> i will get the current version of our membership / upload / commit permissions up on a wiki today
[06:54] <haggai> mdz: I wrote to mako & sabdfl last week
[06:55] <ogra> yup...ChrisH, but since i'm a MOTU now i'd like to know it
[06:55] <sivang> sabdfl: does somebody has a list of already ubuntu members?
[06:55] <ChrisH> ogra: haggai agreed to do it. I don't have the time currently. Already talked with him about it.
[06:56] <mdz> sivang: it could at least be found in the CC transcripts
[06:56] <ogra> a, k
[06:56] <sabdfl> sivang: put up the wiki page with your best recollection, then well ask members to correct it
[06:56] <sladen> sabdfl: would it be add a repositary of ''signed CoC's'' I think it would be a useful (and public) "role call" to have
[06:56] <sivang> sabdfl: ok, sure.
[06:56] <sabdfl> sladen: yes, elmo has them
[06:56] <elmo> no I don't
[06:56] <sabdfl> ?
[06:56] <sladen> make does
[06:56] <sabdfl> mako?
[06:56] <elmo> that was another random change - they all got sent to mako instead
[06:56] <sivang> lol
[06:56] <ogra> regarding the CoC, there should be a text file for download to easily sign it
[06:57] <sabdfl> elmo: sorry, my mistake, you should be getting them
[06:57] <sabdfl> ogra: could you produce that?
[06:57] <ogra> yup
[06:57] <sabdfl> put a version on it, because we will need to rev it over time
[06:57] <ogra> (since i already have one i signed)
[06:59] <ogra> hmm, who is allowed to change that website ?
[06:59] <Treenaks> ogra: oh you fixed it?
[06:59] <Treenaks> ogra: I just signed a w3m -dump :)
[06:59] <mdz> sladen: yes, that was the plan, to post them publicly
[06:59] <ogra> Treenaks: i made a ps and used ps2txt ;)
[06:59] <Treenaks> ogra: hmmm.. :)
[07:00] <ogra> Treenaks: so you will _finally_ join MOTU....thats great news :)
[07:00] <sivang> ogra: are you the new MOTU leader?
[07:00] <Treenaks> MOTU?
[07:00] <ogra> sivang: it appears that haggai is :)
[07:00] <sladen> Masters Of The Universe
[07:00] <Treenaks> oh wait yes
[07:17] <mako> sabdfl: i'm here