| === kbrooks [~kyle@kbrooks.user] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| kbrooks | Hi! | 12:39 |
|---|---|---|
| sivang | hey kbrooks ! | 12:44 |
| sivang | nightly greetins :) | 12:44 |
| kbrooks | what's up? | 12:44 |
| sivang | cool, how may I help you my freind? | 12:45 |
| kbrooks | are all questions welcome? :) | 12:45 |
| sivang | _all_ of them, given they comply with the CoC | 12:45 |
| sivang | and somewhat related to documentation &&|| ubuntu | 12:45 |
| kbrooks | even general questions on ubuntu? | 12:45 |
| sivang | yes | 12:45 |
| sivang | however, be adviced that if a proper answer won't be available, you might be offered to write a howto/doc about it :) | 12:46 |
| kbrooks | ok...lets see...i would like to do something for the team... does the team need any help? | 12:46 |
| sivang | yes, very much, curretnly, there are few goals for hoary - | 12:47 |
| sivang | http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamProjects | 12:47 |
| sivang | all of this require some content contribution :) | 12:48 |
| sivang | also, we are testing if our new pages for contribution instrcution are any good, so feel free to go through: | 12:48 |
| sivang | http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeam | 12:48 |
| sivang | on comment on ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com about how good it helped you start contributing, | 12:49 |
| sivang | sort of a survey in a sense :) | 12:49 |
| sivang | (you have to subscribe first in http://lists.ubuntu.com) | 12:49 |
| sivang | kbrooks: are you ok there buddy? | 12:55 |
| sivang | :) | 12:55 |
| kbrooks | not really, TBH | 12:56 |
| sivang | TBH = to be honest? | 12:56 |
| sivang | well, basically, docs are in the xml docbook format, if you want to contribute but don't want to invest time into reading and learning about it, | 12:57 |
| sivang | just go add your doc to the wiki, | 12:57 |
| sivang | then send an email onto the list and there's someone who'd put it there, state your real name so you would get the proper credits. | 12:57 |
| kbrooks | and yes TBH = to be honest | 12:59 |
| kbrooks | i am trying to upgrade to hoary and a error appeared | 12:59 |
| sivang | oh, I thought you were interested in doc doing...:) | 01:00 |
| kbrooks | but i "fixed" it -- apt-get -f install | 01:00 |
| kbrooks | i am. | 01:01 |
| sivang | ah ok, lemme try and upgrade myself | 01:02 |
| kbrooks | but i want to upgrade to hoary | 01:02 |
| sivang | well, there's a warty-->hoary upgrade doc | 01:02 |
| sivang | on the wiki | 01:02 |
| kbrooks | sivang, i am upgrading to hoary | 01:02 |
| kbrooks | debian is to sid as ubuntu is to hoary | 01:03 |
| sivang | I knwo :) | 01:03 |
| sivang | ok, then what's the problem? | 01:03 |
| kbrooks | gimp was the problem | 01:04 |
| kbrooks | now i'm fixing it...brb | 01:04 |
| sivang | ok, when you're done, just toss your expereicne onto the wiki, and drop a note on the mailing lis t:) | 01:05 |
| kbrooks | may i type it in here for you to look at? | 01:06 |
| sivang | it would be better there, but you could also just send a text file to the list | 01:08 |
| sivang | that would be best , because it could get lost on irc.. | 01:08 |
| sivang | it's pretty easy opening an account on the wiki | 01:08 |
| kbrooks | OK. I'll type it here (quick) and put it on the wiki..... | 01:09 |
| sivang | sure cool | 01:10 |
| sivang | would also get you access to chagne stuff and fix things you see fit | 01:10 |
| kbrooks | So...here goes: | 01:11 |
| kbrooks | I wanted to upgrade to hoary, so I did "sed -e 's/warty/hoary/g' < /etc/apt/sources.list > /etc/apt/sources.list.new", then I copied over sources.list to sources.list.old and sources.list.new to sources.list. (I nearly asked #ubuntu about the command to update your sources, but i quickly remembered it) Then I did apt-get update and apt-get dist-upgrade. | 01:14 |
| kbrooks | Unfortunaely, for me, dpkg exited and the error message told me exactly what happened. | 01:15 |
| kbrooks | I reported it in #ubuntu and a solution came up in the form of cding into /var/cache/apt/archives and doing ``dpkg -i --force-overwrite gimp****.deb''. I did so, but then another error message appeared. | 01:17 |
| kbrooks | Luckily, help came in the form of reading the error message. | 01:18 |
| kbrooks | i did as directed and successfully got it all fixed. | 01:18 |
| kbrooks | brb. | 01:21 |
| === kbrooks [~kyle@kbrooks.user] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| kbrooks | back. | 02:39 |
| === enrico [~enrico@enrico.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| sivang | hi enrico ! | 03:23 |
| enrico | hi sivang ! | 03:26 |
| enrico | it's been a while our timezones didnt | 03:27 |
| enrico | overlap | 03:27 |
| sivang | yes, I tried going back to GMT | 03:32 |
| sivang | :) | 03:32 |
| sivang | but didn't work.. | 03:32 |
| sivang | enrico: what's up? a lot of traffic per day by froud on the mailing list, I can barely keep up :) | 03:33 |
| sivang | any interesting news bedies the new html doc online? | 03:33 |
| enrico | bedies? | 03:33 |
| enrico | sivang: the discussion these days is on the release notes work that trickie is taking care of, and in publishing the HTMLs online | 03:35 |
| sivang | what are bedies? | 03:39 |
| enrico | You asked "any interesting news bedies the new html doc online?" | 03:39 |
| enrico | so I was curious to ask you what are "bedies" :) | 03:39 |
| sivang | besides :) | 03:55 |
| sivang | hehe | 03:55 |
| enrico | The other good news is that Chua is a hero (see the last IRC report) | 04:18 |
| enrico | And that the DocteamWork wiki page links to lots of useful and nice practical informations | 04:18 |
| === enrico [~enrico@enrico.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| === jdub [~jdub@home.waugh.id.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| jdub | hey dudes | 07:22 |
| === shaunm [~shaunm@12-221-67-60.client.insightBB.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| jdub | yo shaunm | 07:23 |
| jdub | enrico: ping | 07:23 |
| jdub | so shaunm | 07:24 |
| jdub | enrico is probably only gone for a moment | 07:24 |
| === enrico is back | ||
| shaunm | howdy jdub | 07:24 |
| shaunm | and the rest of the team | 07:24 |
| jdub | we were wondering what the status of brandable docs in gnome is | 07:24 |
| enrico | wow! Hello shaunm! | 07:25 |
| jdub | and how we can help | 07:25 |
| enrico | people have been talking about working with svn vendor drops to ubuntu-brand the gnome docs, but I remember someone talked about possible better solutions | 07:25 |
| shaunm | so what all do you want to do? | 07:26 |
| shaunm | end of the day, things like the user guide are just going to have to be customized by vendors | 07:26 |
| shaunm | or replaced wholesale | 07:26 |
| jdub | shaunm: first priority is not forking the documentation ;) | 07:27 |
| shaunm | sure | 07:27 |
| jdub | bringing relevant vendor branches to the docs seems far more sustainable | 07:27 |
| enrico | I imagine change some bit here and there to account for visible changes made by the ubuntu devels (if any); if there are chapters that try to be distribution-independent, making them ubuntu-specific, things like that | 07:27 |
| enrico | maybe adding a chapter about Ubuntu | 07:27 |
| shaunm | but you get things like changes to the panel menu | 07:27 |
| shaunm | and those things are so pervasive | 07:28 |
| jdub | yeah | 07:28 |
| shaunm | and it would require a lot of conditional rendering | 07:28 |
| jdub | what do you think about entitising menu locations and so on | 07:28 |
| jdub | or providing macro-like entities built from gnome-menus? | 07:28 |
| shaunm | plus maintaining documentation of non-stock stuff in the community docs | 07:28 |
| jdub | there are quite a few instances where that would work | 07:29 |
| jdub | pulling info directly from .desktop files, gnome-menus, etc. | 07:29 |
| shaunm | which could be a real pain if we had multiple distros doing it, each on their own release cycles and such | 07:29 |
| jdub | shaunm: let's concentrate on gnome's release cycle, and external branches :) | 07:29 |
| enrico | It could already be of help to know what branding facilities are already in place for us to use | 07:29 |
| jdub | and centralised changes to the docs that will have positive ripple effects :) | 07:29 |
| shaunm | the user guide is really the hardest case | 07:30 |
| shaunm | although | 07:31 |
| shaunm | just about every app doc says something like " To run Five or More, select Five or More from the Games submenu of the Main Menu" | 07:31 |
| shaunm | and, you know, if the menu is customized, all those docs are wrong | 07:31 |
| shaunm | that one's a bad example, because docs ought just to use <menuchoice> | 07:32 |
| enrico | I sent a mail to Sean Wheller asking him to join us; I hope he's around | 07:32 |
| jdub | shaunm: could we pull that information from gnome-menus? :) | 07:32 |
| enrico | shaunm: ah, ok. I was about to say: we already entitysed menus and we have those things autogenerated for other things | 07:32 |
| shaunm | jdub: potentially, but then you're locking the documents into yelp | 07:32 |
| shaunm | what happens when you just run gnome-doc-utils on the file to build html for the web? | 07:32 |
| jdub | shaunm: could do it at build time; that complicates things though | 07:33 |
| shaunm | kde uses a docbook customization, and it annoys me | 07:33 |
| shaunm | it complicated things considerably, yes | 07:33 |
| shaunm | sigh | 07:34 |
| shaunm | how I wish docbook profiling weren't so messed up | 07:34 |
| jdub | hrm, on phone for a bit, sorry :| | 07:35 |
| enrico | shaunm: so, the best option so far is using vendor drops to change the bits that need changing? | 07:36 |
| shaunm | at the moment, yes | 07:36 |
| shaunm | I'm afraid we just don't have the infastructure in place for anything very sophisticated | 07:36 |
| enrico | Is there something less sophisticated that can be done, besides tweaking entities? | 07:37 |
| enrico | (I'm trying to ask meaningful questions hoping that someone more knowledgeable than me will join us soon) | 07:37 |
| shaunm | well, so | 07:39 |
| shaunm | can we see some specific problems? | 07:39 |
| shaunm | the real problem with documentation is that everything is free-flowing prose | 07:39 |
| shaunm | and so if you just do these little replacements here and there, you often end up with very awkward prose | 07:40 |
| enrico | I see the problem. Well, I heard of branding efforts being going on and I was wondering, but after this conversation I think we could just go on with vendor drops and then send you some patches sometimes if we improve something you could use | 07:41 |
| shaunm | well | 07:43 |
| shaunm | see, I don't really work on any of the distros' stuff | 07:43 |
| shaunm | and so I don't see the problems as much | 07:43 |
| shaunm | to get all this stuff right, we need to get representatives from the big gnome distros | 07:44 |
| shaunm | and lock them all in a room with me | 07:44 |
| enrico | jdub: can you take care of that? :) | 07:44 |
| shaunm | and preferably some kde folks as well | 07:45 |
| enrico | shaunm: so, noone has been branding the User's Manual so far? | 07:45 |
| shaunm | because a lot of this should happen in a cross-desktop way | 07:45 |
| shaunm | enrico: no, you guys are the first distro to give a damn | 07:45 |
| enrico | Ah, ok, cool. Then we can pioneer the effort and see what happens | 07:46 |
| shaunm | I've been smacking RH for years now | 07:46 |
| shaunm | and I still can't get them to put all their docs in scrollkeeper | 07:46 |
| enrico | Luckily, we have dh_scrollkeeper that does a good part of the job :) | 07:47 |
| shaunm | oh, what's that? | 07:47 |
| shaunm | some day, I'll get around to putting together The One True Help System | 07:47 |
| shaunm | and I'll beat everybody until they switch their systems over to it | 07:47 |
| shaunm | and the world will rejoice | 07:47 |
| enrico | A Debianization tool that automatically looks for a OMF file with a standard name and takes care to make it so that the .deb package installs it correctly | 07:48 |
| enrico | You need at least Two True Help Systems, so that everyone can use something that someone else doesn't use. The trick is making them compatible :) | 07:48 |
| shaunm | :) | 07:48 |
| shaunm | clever | 07:49 |
| shaunm | maybe I'll make another one under a pseodonym | 07:49 |
| shaunm | have flame wars with myself | 07:49 |
| shaunm | finally get the integration work right between the two | 07:49 |
| enrico | You can make a secret deal with a KDE person | 07:50 |
| enrico | Ok, froud is evidently not around to ask some more specific questions; I'll post this conversation to the list in tomorrow's IRC report, then we can give a try to packaging the Gnome User's Manual as well | 07:52 |
| shaunm | oh, froud's asked me *lots* of questions already | 07:53 |
| shaunm | most of which I haven't had satisfactory answers to | 07:53 |
| enrico | Ah, ok, you're already in touch with him already | 07:53 |
| shaunm | he comes into #docs on gimpnet from time to time | 07:54 |
| shaunm | so anyway | 07:55 |
| shaunm | getting *really* good vendorified docs involves changing screenshots as well | 07:55 |
| === enrico is going out | ||
| shaunm | wimp :P | 07:56 |
| enrico | We tried to address the screenshots as well | 07:56 |
| enrico | wiki.ubuntu.com/TakingScreenshots | 07:56 |
| enrico | Froud did quite a good job on that | 07:56 |
| === enrico needs to go | ||
| shaunm | oh very good | 07:56 |
| enrico | my girlfriend is pulling me by my hair | 07:56 |
| shaunm | go go go | 07:56 |
| enrico | I have very long hair, which makes her work easier :) | 07:57 |
| enrico | shaunm: thanks a lot! I'll post things in tomorrow's IRC report. See you! | 07:57 |
| === froud [~sean@ndn-165-141-101.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| froud | African Greetings | 08:25 |
| shaunm | and here's froud | 08:35 |
| froud | hey dude | 08:36 |
| froud | just reading th elogs | 08:37 |
| froud | now finsihed | 08:37 |
| froud | MOst problems can be managed if the build is static | 08:37 |
| froud | i.e. X/HTML | 08:37 |
| shaunm | with sufficient build magic, yes | 08:37 |
| froud | see Yelp will now support | 08:38 |
| froud | yes, I would like to reduce the preprocessing | 08:38 |
| froud | problems such as ghelp:foo | 08:38 |
| shaunm | yeah, ghelp sucks | 08:38 |
| froud | these are a problem | 08:38 |
| froud | olinks? | 08:38 |
| froud | xrefs for internal | 08:39 |
| froud | olinks for ext | 08:39 |
| froud | yelp does not support olinks | 08:39 |
| froud | and as I said to you the formatting of xrefs is wacked | 08:39 |
| shaunm | how would you prefer them formatted? | 08:40 |
| froud | same font as current block | 08:40 |
| shaunm | yelp doesn't change the font for xrefs | 08:40 |
| froud | I get a different or larger font size | 08:40 |
| froud | but then I am not on the last version | 08:41 |
| froud | perhaps tis fixed | 08:41 |
| shaunm | what version? | 08:41 |
| froud | 2.6.1 | 08:41 |
| shaunm | that's odd | 08:41 |
| shaunm | I've never known that to happen | 08:41 |
| froud | well it may be fixed in new versions | 08:42 |
| shaunm | yelp 2.6 doesn't do any font-mangling, iirc, so it might be a gtkhtml2 thing | 08:42 |
| froud | sure the depend thing is a nightmare | 08:42 |
| froud | speaking of dependancies | 08:42 |
| froud | you heard the vendor drops idea | 08:43 |
| froud | what do you think | 08:43 |
| froud | essentially we would build user guide as a patchy on your vendor drop | 08:44 |
| froud | Perhaps we would have to use XPointer extensively | 08:44 |
| shaunm | I worry about having dozens of vendor drops | 08:45 |
| froud | yes it is problematic | 08:45 |
| froud | but essentially we would want to drop in the gnome and later when we have kde, that too | 08:46 |
| froud | thing is we would need to drop the whole GNOME app and doc source. Is that right? | 08:47 |
| === falco [~Jail@a81-84-137-51.netcabo.pt] has joined #Ubuntu-doc | ||
| froud | your docs are kept with each app under C/ | 08:47 |
| froud | so they are not in one place, like docs, is that right? | 08:48 |
| froud | lots of SGML stuff too I see | 08:49 |
| shaunm | none of the user docs are in sgml | 08:50 |
| froud | just an sgml extension then? | 08:50 |
| shaunm | but yes, generally each app contains its own documentation | 08:50 |
| shaunm | where do you see sgml? | 08:50 |
| froud | GIMP | 08:50 |
| froud | phone call | 08:50 |
| shaunm | ah, I'm not responsible for gimp | 08:50 |
| shaunm | they don't even use the gnome help system | 08:50 |
| plovs | morning guys | 08:52 |
| shaunm | so does anything actually support olink? | 08:52 |
| froud | I am back | 08:58 |
| froud | shaunm, straight docbook transfroms using nwalsh xsl | 08:58 |
| === falco [~Jail@a81-84-137-51.netcabo.pt] has joined #Ubuntu-doc | ||
| froud | The main concern at ubuntu is to produce a source that is portable across pointential future desktops | 08:59 |
| froud | at present we have two upstreams, debian and gnome | 09:00 |
| froud | in future we may have kde and perhaps other desktops | 09:00 |
| froud | The most compatible target format is X/HTML | 09:01 |
| froud | So we need to do things in the db src that will work with the nwalsh transfroms | 09:01 |
| shaunm | froud: and what does it do with them? | 09:02 |
| froud | essentially it resolved references between documents | 09:02 |
| froud | external refs | 09:02 |
| froud | you need to maintain an olinks database | 09:02 |
| froud | so preprocessing is required | 09:02 |
| froud | but at least you can say, "See Chapter X of the Other Guide | 09:03 |
| froud | I think that olinks is not such a high requirement for now | 09:04 |
| froud | P4 | 09:04 |
| shaunm | hmm | 09:04 |
| froud | but eventually will need | 09:04 |
| froud | xrefs for internal references | 09:04 |
| froud | I dont like link | 09:05 |
| froud | ulink for URI | 09:05 |
| shaunm | link has its advantages | 09:05 |
| froud | but olinks is complicated for users and apps like yelp | 09:05 |
| shaunm | olinks are very complicated, yes | 09:05 |
| froud | not when you may want to do xsl:fo later | 09:06 |
| shaunm | and their behavior is application-defined | 09:06 |
| froud | agreed | 09:06 |
| froud | hence I would hold off on olink | 09:06 |
| shaunm | and I've already deviated from norm on a number of other application-defined things | 09:06 |
| shaunm | like xrefstyle | 09:06 |
| froud | yes I see this | 09:06 |
| === plovs_work [~plovs@195.13.248.84] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| froud | point is people here like yelp | 09:07 |
| froud | cause they dont have to transform | 09:07 |
| froud | but yelp has its limits | 09:07 |
| shaunm | certainly | 09:07 |
| froud | conformance to yelp in our source can cause locking to yelp | 09:07 |
| froud | something we wantto avoid | 09:08 |
| shaunm | of course | 09:08 |
| froud | so I am thinking the best is xml > X/HTML | 09:08 |
| froud | the meta stuff from scrollkeep can come later | 09:08 |
| froud | kde also has its problems | 09:09 |
| froud | and processing from .desktop files is not going to be a stable solution | 09:09 |
| froud | in fact I have not seen a standard for .desktop | 09:10 |
| shaunm | it's on freedesktop.org | 09:10 |
| shaunm | it's a bit under-specified, imo, but the glib and kde implementations pretty much agree | 09:10 |
| froud | I think you are right, we need intervention from freedesktop | 09:10 |
| shaunm | if we ever make a shared help system, it will likely use .desktop files | 09:11 |
| froud | ok | 09:11 |
| froud | sounds good, must look for this standard | 09:11 |
| shaunm | because it's what kde wants, and it's a compromise I'm willing to make | 09:11 |
| froud | another problem with yelp is that it is hard to custom | 09:12 |
| shaunm | honestly, I don't think docbook is perfectly suited for application docs in its current form | 09:12 |
| froud | who has the time to create a new xml app | 09:12 |
| froud | not me | 09:12 |
| froud | I think it works | 09:12 |
| shaunm | it basically works, yeah | 09:13 |
| shaunm | the semantics are a bit off | 09:13 |
| froud | sure | 09:13 |
| shaunm | I wouldn't dream of doing a gnome-only customization though | 09:13 |
| froud | agreed :-) | 09:13 |
| shaunm | I'd like to see an official docbook derivative more suited to this sort of thing | 09:13 |
| shaunm | that kde and gnome and hopefully others would embrace | 09:13 |
| shaunm | what sort of customizations do you want to do to yelp? | 09:14 |
| froud | it wont be that easy | 09:14 |
| froud | well it would be nice to be able to customize the look and feel of the content | 09:14 |
| shaunm | do you want to cusotmize the look of the rendered documents? | 09:14 |
| shaunm | or the topics listings? | 09:14 |
| froud | and include jscripts for special stuff | 09:14 |
| shaunm | well, any distro can tweak yelp's db2html.xsl | 09:15 |
| froud | yes, we can but I was thinking more simple | 09:15 |
| froud | have a file that yelp can load | 09:15 |
| froud | the file defines the customs | 09:15 |
| froud | like a docbook custom layer | 09:15 |
| shaunm | but what would the file contain? | 09:16 |
| froud | much what a db cust layer does today | 09:16 |
| froud | things like are captions before or after images | 09:16 |
| shaunm | oh, so just parameter setting? | 09:16 |
| froud | glossary.collection | 09:16 |
| froud | and template customs too | 09:17 |
| froud | support for index on////off | 09:17 |
| shaunm | well, at that level you just have to write xslt anyway | 09:17 |
| froud | on/off | 09:17 |
| shaunm | hmm | 09:17 |
| shaunm | why would you want to turn indexes off? | 09:17 |
| froud | yes but just the custom layer not the source cxsl | 09:17 |
| shaunm | (ignoring the fact that they don't work right now) | 09:17 |
| froud | some people do want it | 09:18 |
| froud | sometimes the doc is not indexed | 09:18 |
| shaunm | well, right, but that's easily detected | 09:18 |
| froud | in custlayer can also specify css | 09:19 |
| froud | and javascript | 09:19 |
| froud | for example on task | 09:19 |
| froud | to have topic with intro | 09:19 |
| froud | and gather associated tasks via javascript | 09:19 |
| froud | pick list | 09:19 |
| froud | expand and collapse | 09:19 |
| froud | etc | 09:20 |
| froud | an dthis gem | 09:20 |
| froud | to be able to add notes to docs under yelp | 09:20 |
| froud | user custom | 09:20 |
| shaunm | ok, hold on a minute | 09:20 |
| shaunm | most of these are features, features I've thought about before, and damn cool features | 09:20 |
| froud | user writes note, is saved local and displays when the topic is loaded | 09:20 |
| shaunm | why don't you just implement and send upstream? | 09:20 |
| froud | I am a writer not a coder :-( | 09:21 |
| shaunm | and wow, somebody besides me thought of notes | 09:21 |
| shaunm | well, yeah, but who's going to do all these customizations for ubuntu? | 09:21 |
| froud | I do the docbook | 09:21 |
| froud | and xsl | 09:21 |
| shaunm | because that person should just start hacking yelp | 09:21 |
| froud | if you dont mind giving me guidedance | 09:22 |
| froud | I see notes on two levels | 09:22 |
| froud | user and admin | 09:22 |
| froud | user on localhost | 09:22 |
| froud | admin on server | 09:22 |
| shaunm | would be nice for admins to be able to push notes to users | 09:22 |
| froud | yes, exactly | 09:23 |
| froud | and for admins to collect notes | 09:23 |
| froud | and push to GNOME or whoever | 09:23 |
| froud | user / admin feedback | 09:23 |
| froud | help pages are too static | 09:24 |
| froud | they need to live | 09:24 |
| froud | expand/collapse of lists etc | 09:25 |
| froud | can help | 09:25 |
| froud | and notes | 09:25 |
| froud | no more one col top to bottom | 09:25 |
| froud | click next to proceed | 09:25 |
| froud | we need links in body text and in sidebars | 09:26 |
| froud | I have a javascript to do this. I wrote it for a customer | 09:26 |
| froud | The each topic collects related tasks | 09:27 |
| froud | the list is expand and collapse | 09:27 |
| shaunm | I've talked about submitting notes and such up to bugzilla through yelp | 09:27 |
| froud | I have notes too, but did not impliment is | 09:27 |
| shaunm | which would be nice | 09:27 |
| froud | The customer has a custom browser that captures the notes | 09:28 |
| shaunm | definitely if there were some sort of note thing, it would be good to be able to send up the notes | 09:28 |
| froud | trap | 09:28 |
| froud | agreed | 09:28 |
| shaunm | I absolutely want expanding/collapsing sections | 09:28 |
| froud | yes, we dont do that, but on groups of task we collect them under a heading that can be expanded | 09:29 |
| shaunm | sure | 09:29 |
| shaunm | but it's the same bit of javascript | 09:29 |
| froud | for example the task of formatting has many tasks | 09:29 |
| froud | yes | 09:29 |
| froud | the notes is something else | 09:29 |
| shaunm | yes | 09:29 |
| froud | problem is I can't release it GPL | 09:29 |
| shaunm | they'd be most useful if they could be anchored to a particular place in the page | 09:29 |
| froud | it belongs to the customer now | 09:30 |
| froud | we're working on that :-) | 09:30 |
| froud | essentially our aim is to allow the user to optimize the help screen real-estate to their requirement | 09:30 |
| froud | that inlcudes inside topics | 09:30 |
| froud | I would like to see the same for OSS help, starting with Ubuntu | 09:31 |
| froud | there are many challenges at Ubuntu | 09:31 |
| froud | but we are we are willing | 09:31 |
| froud | the good thing is we are at the start | 09:32 |
| froud | we can mold and shape things | 09:32 |
| froud | on most projects you cant | 09:32 |
| froud | the legacy does not permit it | 09:32 |
| === froud points to GNOME and KDE :-) | ||
| shaunm | right | 09:33 |
| froud | so how do you think we can get traction on this | 09:33 |
| shaunm | a big problem I've faced with designing a new help system is that it must maintain backwards compatibility to both scrollkeeper and kde's help system | 09:33 |
| froud | I mean all the points discussed | 09:33 |
| froud | 1. vendor drops 2. improvement on yelp | 09:34 |
| shaunm | oh hold on | 09:34 |
| shaunm | I just bit my tongue really hard | 09:34 |
| froud | ouch! | 09:34 |
| plovs_work | shaunm, where do you want to put the notes? some wiki-like backend? | 09:35 |
| plovs_work | i meant, froud off-course | 09:36 |
| shaunm | man, that really hurts | 09:36 |
| froud | no wiki | 09:36 |
| froud | wiki is messy | 09:36 |
| shaunm | froud++ | 09:37 |
| plovs_work | froud, personal notes, or uploadable, and uploadable to where? | 09:37 |
| === plovs_work likes wiki | ||
| froud | in client server? | 09:37 |
| froud | on the server with help loaded from server | 09:37 |
| froud | that is in Remote X | 09:37 |
| shaunm | I wouldn't want to require net connectivity to use notes | 09:37 |
| froud | on local host under .notes | 09:38 |
| froud | or something | 09:38 |
| shaunm | if I'm on my laptop on an airplane, I should be able to write a little note to myself | 09:38 |
| shaunm | I should be able to write notes that are just *mine* | 09:38 |
| froud | used something like iFolder for sync | 09:38 |
| shaunm | I don't think notes should be pushed to others without an explicit action | 09:38 |
| froud | yes, that is like iFolder | 09:38 |
| plovs_work | and maybe uploadable to bugzilla so good notes don't get lost | 09:38 |
| shaunm | yes, totally | 09:39 |
| froud | yes eventual integration | 09:39 |
| froud | what about a web service | 09:39 |
| froud | pass notes as xml | 09:39 |
| froud | to web service | 09:39 |
| shaunm | well, bugzilla talking is likely to come in 2.12 | 09:39 |
| froud | but web services can be added to bgz | 09:40 |
| shaunm | they hopefully will be | 09:40 |
| plovs_work | shaunm, can/will yelp be able to show html? | 09:40 |
| shaunm | it's been talked about a lot | 09:40 |
| shaunm | plovs_work: it can | 09:41 |
| froud | of course the xml-instance trasmitted must be in a valid format for bgz | 09:41 |
| froud | plovs, it will | 09:41 |
| shaunm | always has been able to | 09:41 |
| shaunm | except for about the last two weeks, because I accidentally broke it | 09:41 |
| plovs_work | shaunm, so we could write our docs in xml, convert it to html and then show it with yelp? | 09:41 |
| shaunm | but it's fixed now | 09:41 |
| shaunm | yes | 09:42 |
| shaunm | you won't get the fancy sidebar or some other niceties, but they'll display | 09:42 |
| plovs_work | shaunm, can I make a sidebar with css or tables? | 09:42 |
| shaunm | well | 09:42 |
| shaunm | you can put whatever you want into your html, within reason | 09:43 |
| shaunm | the sidebar in yelp, though, is seperate from the page | 09:43 |
| shaunm | there's really no way to get one of those for html files | 09:43 |
| plovs_work | :-) within reason sounds nice ... | 09:43 |
| shaunm | at the moment | 09:43 |
| shaunm | well | 09:43 |
| shaunm | "within reason": frames are known not to work, and I make no guarantees about javascript | 09:44 |
| shaunm | it's a help program, not a web browser | 09:44 |
| froud | shaunm, xml > nwalsh htmlhelp > yelp | 09:44 |
| froud | Jirka would love that :-) | 09:45 |
| shaunm | big fan of htmlhelp? | 09:46 |
| froud | shaunm, the problem is that yelp is young | 09:46 |
| froud | but not enough coders to work on it | 09:46 |
| shaunm | well, it's really quite old | 09:46 |
| shaunm | I mean, except for the fact that the current yelp has almost nothing to do with the old yelp | 09:47 |
| froud | we writers may have all the dreams, but we need coders | 09:47 |
| shaunm | and I'm pretty much the only regular yelp developer | 09:47 |
| froud | old yelp is dead | 09:47 |
| froud | the way forward is with the new yelp | 09:47 |
| shaunm | Yelp is dead! Long live Yelp! | 09:47 |
| plovs_work | shaunm, i like the one in hoary, it is a lot nicer then the one in warty, better graphics, stuff lines up etc | 09:47 |
| froud | :-) | 09:47 |
| shaunm | which one is in hoary? | 09:47 |
| plovs_work | 2.9.2? | 09:48 |
| shaunm | 2.9? | 09:48 |
| froud | 2.9.? | 09:48 |
| plovs_work | i use warty here | 09:48 |
| froud | may be 10 | 09:48 |
| shaunm | yeah, I'm mostly pleased with the new formatting | 09:48 |
| plovs_work | just a sec | 09:48 |
| shaunm | using gecko has helped a lot | 09:48 |
| shaunm | I envy ubuntu | 09:49 |
| froud | gecko - a small lizard that loses it tail when it gets a fright | 09:49 |
| froud | so join us :-) | 09:49 |
| shaunm | you guys have such an active and eager docs community | 09:49 |
| shaunm | the gnome docs community kind of died, for various reasons | 09:49 |
| froud | really that's why the docs are empty | 09:49 |
| shaunm | and I've been trying to pull it back together | 09:49 |
| plovs_work | shaunm, and it's not close to as active as we would like | 09:49 |
| froud | point is its new and we can do what we like | 09:50 |
| plovs_work | shaunm, but if you join us, we need to work on gnome docs as well :-) | 09:50 |
| shaunm | the fedora docs community seemed to explode with interest at first | 09:50 |
| froud | shaunm, documentation is a go-to-market strategy | 09:50 |
| plovs_work | the plus of ubuntu is that the docs-team is part of the developers group, more or less, we went to mataro as well for example | 09:50 |
| froud | make a business case for writers and it will work | 09:50 |
| shaunm | but then it turned out to be a bunch of geeks writing stuff like "Bastardizing your fedora system to behave like gentoo for your uber-leet pr0n server" | 09:51 |
| plovs_work | shaunm, we're a little older then that :-) | 09:51 |
| === plovs_work just *knows* his wife would kill him if he wrote something like that | ||
| shaunm | as well she should | 09:52 |
| === froud thinks we need documentation bounties. Canonical R U LISTENING!!! | ||
| shaunm | ximian/novell set up a couple | 09:52 |
| shaunm | in their "gnome" bounties | 09:52 |
| shaunm | god did that ever piss me off | 09:52 |
| froud | yes, :-) | 09:52 |
| froud | I work on SuSE | 09:53 |
| shaunm | they were all evolution-related, and hardly my top priority for the gnome docs team | 09:53 |
| froud | mostly with Novell South Africa | 09:53 |
| shaunm | but they were presented as if they were what the community wanted | 09:53 |
| shaunm | I mean, if Novell wants to put up money for stuff like that, that's cool. I'm all for it. But don't make it sound like it's coming from me. | 09:53 |
| froud | no that was not right | 09:54 |
| froud | did you speak to them | 09:54 |
| froud | they are a good bunch to work wit | 09:54 |
| froud | if not speak to Nat | 09:54 |
| === froud point to http://www.nat.org | ||
| plovs_work | froud, there *are* documentation bounties | 09:55 |
| froud | plovs_work, where? | 09:55 |
| plovs_work | 50/50 up front and i'll tell ya! | 09:56 |
| plovs_work | ok, ok, let me find it... | 09:56 |
| froud | on ubuntu? | 09:56 |
| plovs_work | yes | 09:56 |
| froud | share :-) | 09:56 |
| froud | they are not here http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/bounties | 09:57 |
| === froud waits... the suspense is killing | ||
| froud | shaunm, so you with us? | 09:58 |
| froud | great good to have you onboard | 09:58 |
| froud | :-) | 09:58 |
| froud | now we need to get you a commiter access | 09:58 |
| froud | :-) | 09:58 |
| froud | anyting else you need?/ | 09:58 |
| plovs_work | https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryGoals | 09:58 |
| === froud cringes as he just made a total mess of a vendor drop | ||
| plovs_work | hmm, no there was one more page | 09:59 |
| froud | plovs_work, I looked high and low on ubuntu, there are none | 10:00 |
| plovs_work | there used to be though | 10:00 |
| shaunm | froud: I did raise my objections, as did others. Nat said it would be addressed, and it wasn't. | 10:01 |
| froud | plovs_work, Nah! not in my time | 10:01 |
| froud | shaunm, that figures | 10:01 |
| shaunm | well, so far, I've gotten on bad terms with Red Hat's documentation team, Novell's documentation team, and Sun's documentation team. | 10:01 |
| shaunm | *especially* Sun's documentation team | 10:02 |
| froud | yes, I felt the sun one :-) | 10:02 |
| froud | all three have their problems | 10:03 |
| froud | I manage to work well with them, but dont stick it out to far | 10:03 |
| froud | I may lose a limb:-) | 10:04 |
| froud | OK, I am back to work. I would like to see how we get traction on this discussion and how we get confirmation from shaunm to join us.:-) | 10:04 |
| shaunm | I can't commit to any distro, really. I have my hands full with gnome. | 10:04 |
| froud | even if it achieves GNOME goals? | 10:05 |
| shaunm | are you guys going to work on gnome docs? | 10:07 |
| froud | if we have GNOME vendor drop, which I am testing | 10:07 |
| froud | we will push back to GNOME | 10:07 |
| froud | and some of us may, join GNOME DOCssssss | 10:07 |
| shaunm | right now, I'm both the yelp maintainer and the chief tech writer for gnome | 10:08 |
| shaunm | which is more than I can handle | 10:08 |
| froud | if we see that the app has no docs and will be in ubuntu | 10:08 |
| froud | shaunm, I am chief technical writer on comercial projects and a number of OSS ones. It's all to much sigh, sob, sob. | 10:09 |
| === froud puts his head on shaunm s' shoulder | ||
| froud | OK, well let's stay in contact | 10:09 |
| froud | you on the ubuntu docs list? | 10:09 |
| plovs_work | froud, why don't you make a write-up of what we miss in yelp, what would make our life easier? | 10:10 |
| froud | plovs, I can | 10:10 |
| plovs_work | shaunm, fell free to drop by as often as you want, you'll notice we're the nicest doc-team in town :-) | 10:10 |
| froud | perhaps documentthe grand vision we have set before ourselves today :-) | 10:10 |
| plovs_work | froud, :-) | 10:11 |
| froud | plovs_work, but would it help. I mean we need traction. | 10:11 |
| froud | I am trying to test evndor drops | 10:11 |
| froud | vendor drops | 10:11 |
| froud | well trying to do it in a way that makes it easy for us | 10:12 |
| === froud wishes GNOME used SVN | ||
| froud | My poor hardisk is loaded | 10:12 |
| froud | shaunm, I need a way to checkout just the docs | 10:13 |
| froud | doing checkout of apps + docs is toooooooo much | 10:13 |
| shaunm | bah svn | 10:13 |
| froud | careful I am having an affair with SVN at the moment. She is very nice to me | 10:14 |
| === shaunm fanboys arch | ||
| plovs_work | shaunm, ok, now you've done it, now you've gotten on bad terms with Red Hat's documentation team, Novell's documentation team, and Sun's documentation team *and* the Ubuntu doc-team | 10:14 |
| shaunm | well, so there's no single command you can do to get all the docs | 10:14 |
| froud | OK lets have a baz war | 10:14 |
| shaunm | but the location of each doc is given on http://live.gnome.org/DocumentationProject/DocTable2.10 | 10:14 |
| shaunm | plovs_work: yeah, I'm good at that | 10:15 |
| shaunm | *most* of the application docs are <module>/help | 10:15 |
| shaunm | but not all | 10:15 |
| shaunm | if I had my way, all user documentation would always use <module>/help/<docname> | 10:15 |
| === froud thinks he needs to script this | ||
| shaunm | oh, I have something for you then | 10:16 |
| shaunm | if I still have it | 10:16 |
| === froud looks on panting, pant, pant | ||
| froud | plovs_work, do svn up and take a peek at the XSL I hacked to create the DocOwner/Maintainer Status Reports | 10:19 |
| shaunm | hmm, the listing is out of date | 10:19 |
| froud | plovs_work, test it on adminguide/adminguide.xml | 10:20 |
| froud | shaunm, that's why I am starting to automate the ubuntu one | 10:20 |
| froud | plovs, we need to run it on each doc | 10:20 |
| froud | next step is to create the make file to do so | 10:21 |
| froud | then enrico and mako can cron it and upload to some place that we can link to from Wiki [http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStatus] | 10:22 |
| shaunm | well, anyway | 10:22 |
| shaunm | http://www.gnome.org/~shaunm/doctable/ | 10:22 |
| shaunm | grab doaproll.rdf and cvsup | 10:22 |
| shaunm | the listing isn't perfectly up to date, but it's most of everything | 10:22 |
| froud | cool that will help | 10:23 |
| froud | thanks | 10:23 |
| shaunm | oh, actually | 10:23 |
| froud | you just saved me hours | 10:23 |
| shaunm | that checks out everything | 10:23 |
| shaunm | at any rate, doaproll.rdf is machine-readable, so you should be able to do whatever you want with it | 10:23 |
| shaunm | oh! | 10:23 |
| shaunm | and you'll have to install xml starlet to run that script | 10:23 |
| shaunm | which you should install anyway. it's a godsend | 10:24 |
| froud | send xml starlet url so I can learn more | 10:24 |
| === enrico_ [~enrico@enrico.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| froud | got it | 10:25 |
| shaunm | it's the grep, sed, and awk of xml | 10:25 |
| froud | hoooo ha, the docteam r gonna luv this | 10:25 |
| froud | that's a gem | 10:25 |
| froud | enrico, I see another wiki page comming | 10:26 |
| shaunm | I'm listed on the developers page, but I've never submitted a single line of code. :/ | 10:26 |
| froud | somebody loves you afterall :-) | 10:26 |
| enrico | froud: hey! | 10:26 |
| enrico | froud, shaum: have you been talking since I got out? | 10:26 |
| froud | enrico, do svn up and take a look in housekeep at the xsl | 10:26 |
| === enrico fears | ||
| shaunm | well, so I had been developing a similar tool and using it for my own stuff | 10:26 |
| froud | yes | 10:26 |
| shaunm | and I'd meant to package it up for others to use | 10:27 |
| froud | and so where is it | 10:27 |
| froud | give it to us! | 10:27 |
| shaunm | then this posted to the libxml2 list announcing xml starlet, and he was already much farther along than I was | 10:27 |
| enrico | froud: COOL! The autostatus thing! | 10:27 |
| froud | enrico, the basic xsl yes | 10:28 |
| shaunm | so I threw my code away and wholly endorsed his | 10:28 |
| froud | now need script to make the files uplaod ready | 10:28 |
| shaunm | oh, actually, looks like Mikhail has removed me from the developer list | 10:28 |
| froud | shaunm, fair enough | 10:28 |
| shaunm | yeah | 10:28 |
| froud | enrico, you can test it on adminguide | 10:29 |
| enrico | cool cool cool | 10:29 |
| froud | it makes a docbook article type | 10:29 |
| froud | you can read it in yelp | 10:29 |
| froud | and can be transformed using nwalsh stylesheets to HTML | 10:30 |
| enrico | did you make a make target for it? | 10:30 |
| froud | that's next | 10:30 |
| froud | do you think it should be in the main makefile | 10:30 |
| froud | or have its own | 10:30 |
| enrico | I'd say main makefile. Like a make status that creates a status article in build/ involving status from all documents | 10:32 |
| === froud has not done any large commits of late. Been closing the production on a new book just finished writing | ||
| froud | enrico, ok, now you just need to get the authors to insert authorblurbs on items | 10:33 |
| froud | then we need a script to remove them prior to version release | 10:33 |
| plovs_work | froud, how does it work? | 10:33 |
| enrico | froud: me and you do it. If plovs does it as well, then it's 100% of the committers at the moment :) | 10:34 |
| enrico | plovs_work: this is an easy and cool one: | 10:34 |
| === enrico looks for a url | ||
| froud | plovs_work, xsltproc userguide/test.xml userguide/usersguide.xml | 10:35 |
| froud | then transform that to html | 10:35 |
| enrico | plovs_work: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamWork (see "Marking what you do") | 10:35 |
| froud | plovs_work, xsltproc userguide/test.html userguide/test.xml | 10:35 |
| enrico | plovs_work: you do that, and Sean's autocoolthing will generate a cool status page | 10:35 |
| enrico | plovs_work: minimum effort, maximum win | 10:36 |
| froud | enrico, its rough and basic but does the job. We can always improve | 10:36 |
| enrico | froud: I like it because it's simple and quite convenient to use | 10:37 |
| froud | yikes I must get back to work, production deadlines today. Gotta go to the printer and arts guy etc. | 10:37 |
| enrico | froud: wow! Good work! | 10:37 |
| froud | shaunm, that's will be in touch. r u on the mailing list | 10:38 |
| enrico | plovs_work: did you see how it works? | 10:38 |
| plovs_work | just trying, work is hectic today | 10:39 |
| froud | plovs_work, dont forget you need to pass the stylesheet in the transform process | 10:40 |
| plovs_work | installing xsltproc again (clean hoary install) | 10:41 |
| froud | plovs_work, then cd housekeep | 10:42 |
| froud | do | 10:42 |
| froud | xsltproc -o test.xml writeOwnerStatus.xsl ../adminguide/adminguide.xml | 10:42 |
| froud | then do yelp test.xml | 10:43 |
| === plovs_work needs a faster computer | ||
| plovs_work | COOL! | 10:45 |
| froud | on the mainboard or between the keyboard and the seat? | 10:45 |
| plovs_work | between the keyboard and the seat is outdated, no more upgrades available | 10:45 |
| froud | :-) | 10:46 |
| froud | ok, so this needs to be run on each doc in the projects list | 10:46 |
| plovs_work | running quickguide | 10:46 |
| froud | I will out to base.dir build/status | 10:46 |
| froud | so plovs_work you just add authorblurbs to what you will be doing | 10:47 |
| froud | I'll take care of the make for this | 10:47 |
| froud | enrico, will take care of cronjob and upload | 10:47 |
| enrico | I will | 10:47 |
| froud | Next lady for a shave ? | 10:48 |
| enrico | We can decide that everything in build/ will end up in http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~mako/docteam/ and whatever the alias is going to be | 10:48 |
| froud | ok, goo | 10:49 |
| froud | good | 10:49 |
| froud | so you want to use make dist and give tar.gz | 10:49 |
| froud | to mako | 10:49 |
| froud | make dist outs to ubuntu-docs/ | 10:50 |
| froud | I suggest we run make all | 10:50 |
| froud | and make status | 10:50 |
| froud | both out to build/ | 10:51 |
| mako | enrico, froud: hey there | 10:51 |
| froud | mako, speak of the devel | 10:51 |
| froud | devil | 10:51 |
| froud | :-) | 10:51 |
| mako | devel too :) | 10:51 |
| froud | mako, svn up | 10:52 |
| froud | check xsl in housekeep | 10:52 |
| froud | creates owner/status list | 10:52 |
| froud | as db xml article | 10:52 |
| === mako was *just* about to go to sleep :) | ||
| mako | i'll check it out first thing tomorrow | 10:52 |
| mako | i took today off | 10:52 |
| froud | no time for sleep now dude | 10:52 |
| mako | (mostly) | 10:52 |
| enrico | mako: and read my mail :) | 10:52 |
| froud | we're on a role | 10:52 |
| mako | awesome | 10:52 |
| mako | enrico: i'm downloading mail right now | 10:53 |
| froud | Ok and while you are at it we need coffee. Black two sugars fro me. thanks | 10:53 |
| enrico | simple proposal: if xltproc and all the rest are installed on people, you can cron the build and upload | 10:53 |
| enrico | to avoid us feeding you binary code, you make a snapshot of a makefile, and you copy it back after a svn update | 10:53 |
| enrico | s/binary/arbitrary/ | 10:53 |
| enrico | this is it. That'd be very simple for everyone | 10:54 |
| mako | enrico: are you guys distributing the xslt though? | 10:54 |
| mako | that's the problem | 10:54 |
| enrico | You mean the docbook xslt? | 10:54 |
| mako | i've actually filed patches that fix security bugs in the debian *default* xslt db stylesheets | 10:54 |
| mako | (the slide stylesheets granted, but still) | 10:54 |
| mako | they were automatically downloadin, including and processing xslt from the web | 10:55 |
| enrico | We distribute at least the xslt to create the stats | 10:55 |
| mako | xslt is a full language | 10:55 |
| mako | it's not just a matter of the makefile | 10:55 |
| enrico | I see. Too bad. | 10:55 |
| mako | i mean, i'm happy to do it | 10:55 |
| mako | but i think we should ask elmo/'thom first | 10:56 |
| mako | they've been very very conservative in the past | 10:56 |
| mako | they've said no to me in the past a few times.. so i'm a little skepitical | 10:56 |
| mako | they talk about setting up some uml or chroot syste.. which would be perfect | 10:56 |
| mako | but it's not around.... | 10:56 |
| enrico | well, we can always cron the download and extract of a tarball I generate | 10:57 |
| mako | yes, absolutely | 10:57 |
| mako | i was thinking about maybe building on a machine of my own even | 10:57 |
| enrico | mako: about Elmo, it's 2 days I chase him for the svn migration thing | 10:57 |
| mako | or even better(!) | 10:57 |
| enrico | he told me he'd get back to me on tuesday, eh | 10:57 |
| mako | no wait.. hmm | 10:57 |
| === enrico always has to chase people | ||
| mako | he sends me messages like "mako!" and then doesn't reply for a day too | 10:58 |
| === froud waits for coffee | ||
| mako | simple admin things are very easy to fix | 10:58 |
| mako | usually super quick turnaround | 10:58 |
| mako | but "set up this new thing or make this decision about a new piece of software" are always kind of lower on the list it seems | 10:58 |
| mako | and i understand why this is, but it's quite annoying sometimes | 10:59 |
| froud | dudes, just move svn. forget the baz etc | 10:59 |
| froud | mako give me ssh access | 10:59 |
| froud | done by tonight :-) | 10:59 |
| === froud will send the bill :-) | ||
| mako | froud: nobody without a contract gets ssh access *period* inside the protected network | 10:59 |
| mako | :-/ | 11:00 |
| === froud puts on his miners hard hat | ||
| === froud looks down the tunnel and switches on the head lamp | ||
| mako | enrico: i'm gonna read your email and then go to sleep :) | 11:01 |
| enrico | mako: ok. Good night! | 11:01 |
| froud | me off 2. serious thi stime. read it in logs or better on the list | 11:01 |
| froud | chow | 11:01 |
| === froud [~sean@ndn-165-141-101.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Leaving"] | ||
| === plovs_work feeding-time | ||
| mako | plovs_work: hey there! :) | 11:06 |
| plovs_work | hi! | 11:06 |
| mako | plovs_work: well. i'm off too but we can talk again soon | 11:06 |
| plovs_work | ok :-) | 11:07 |
| === enrico upgrades his warty image to hoary | ||
| enrico | just change sources.list and go? | 11:13 |
| plovs_work | enrico, dist-upgrade and lots of patience | 11:58 |
| === maskie [~maskie@196-30-108-153.uudial.uunet.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| === jiyuu0 [~jiyuu0@219.95.208.193] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| jiyuu0 | enrico, some girls registering http://www.livejournal.com/users/jiyuu0/22951.html | 01:21 |
| jiyuu0 | today's recruitment... 35/80 girls | 01:22 |
| enrico | jiyuu0: still quite a high average | 03:04 |
| enrico | jiyuu0: it is to be seen how to go from that high average to have women hackers | 03:10 |
| === enrico [~enrico@enrico.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| === enrico [~enrico@enrico.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| === froud [~sean@ndn-165-141-101.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| froud | African greetings | 06:38 |
| froud | tester wanted | 06:39 |
| froud | anyone up | 06:39 |
| Kinnison | tester? | 06:44 |
| Kinnison | what for? | 06:44 |
| froud | make status | 06:45 |
| froud | do svn up | 06:45 |
| froud | in trunk runmake status | 06:45 |
| froud | see if it builds the status pages in build/status | 06:45 |
| froud | build/status/ | 06:45 |
| Kinnison | svn url? | 06:45 |
| froud | the docs url | 06:46 |
| Kinnison | which is? | 06:46 |
| froud | http://69.155.172.150/faq | 06:46 |
| === Kinnison does svn co | ||
| Kinnison | what do i need to install to test? | 06:47 |
| Kinnison | well, I apparently have xsltproc already so that's a start | 06:48 |
| froud | http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ForTheHasty | 06:48 |
| Kinnison | it is sitting resolving stuff over and over | 06:48 |
| Kinnison | and connecting to 209.222.168.105 | 06:48 |
| froud | you dont have everything installed | 06:49 |
| froud | and catalog is not working | 06:49 |
| === Kinnison installs xt-catalog | ||
| froud | do you have the other parts installed | 06:50 |
| Kinnison | that is right isn't it? | 06:51 |
| Kinnison | I have xsltproc | 06:51 |
| Kinnison | what else do I need? | 06:51 |
| Kinnison | that page wasn't very helpful | 06:51 |
| froud | you need the dtd and xsl from docbook | 06:51 |
| Kinnison | I have docbook-xsl installed | 06:51 |
| froud | http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamWork | 06:51 |
| Kinnison | That still doesn't say exactly what packages I have to install | 06:52 |
| Kinnison | for a doc team; this is very poorly documented | 06:52 |
| froud | For the hasty say it all, but you need the DTD and XSL | 06:52 |
| === Kinnison will say exactly once more... *WHAT PACKAGES SHOULD I INSTALL* | ||
| froud | xsltproc should look for your catalof default in etc/xml/ | 06:53 |
| froud | Kinnison, xsltproc, docbook dtd and xsl | 06:53 |
| froud | you most likely have GNU Make right? | 06:53 |
| Kinnison | E: Couldn't find package dtd | 06:54 |
| froud | I will say ONCE MORE install the Docbook DTD | 06:54 |
| === Kinnison gives up | ||
| Kinnison | if you can't tell me the package name then what am I supposed to do? guess? | 06:54 |
| froud | Kinnison, r u working on docs? | 06:54 |
| Kinnison | No | 06:54 |
| === Kinnison merely offered to try and help you out | ||
| === Kinnison is not a documentation person | ||
| froud | Ok will I dont know what they cal the package for Docbook on Ubuntu | 06:55 |
| Kinnison | Oh | 06:56 |
| === Kinnison spanks the docteam for not having this info written down anywhere obvious | ||
| froud | well its basic to doc people | 06:56 |
| froud | but perhaps we should doc the install in wiki | 06:56 |
| froud | use pin | 06:57 |
| froud | pin docbook | 06:57 |
| Kinnison | -bash: pin: command not found | 06:57 |
| Kinnison | http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.3/dbnotnx.mod appears to be one of the things I'm lacking | 06:57 |
| froud | Hmmm, what a pitty now theres a gem tool | 06:57 |
| froud | then there is something wrong with the docbook DTD isstall on your machine | 06:58 |
| froud | if no local docbook is found then it will default to the network | 06:58 |
| froud | if your connection is slow it may result in problems | 06:59 |
| Kinnison | well considering I've never done anything for it so far I assume I'm simply missing some package or something | 06:59 |
| froud | search for it in aptitude | 06:59 |
| === Kinnison fetches the contents file to look in that | ||
| froud | Heh heh, nothing beats good old YaST | 07:01 |
| Kinnison | well apparently I have dbnotnx.mod version 4.3 installed | 07:02 |
| Kinnison | but it's not working | 07:02 |
| Kinnison | do I need some kind of catalogue tool? | 07:02 |
| froud | there should be a catalog in etc/xml/ | 07:03 |
| froud | your xsltproc should default to that | 07:03 |
| Kinnison | it finds /usr/share/xml/docbook/schema/dtd/4.3/catalog.xml | 07:04 |
| froud | if its not wacked in the distro, it should Just Work | 07:04 |
| Kinnison | and then it tries to stat() random http urls | 07:04 |
| froud | that will do | 07:04 |
| Kinnison | which is really freaky | 07:04 |
| froud | Hmm the catalog should be using rewriteURI | 07:05 |
| froud | something is really wrong. you on Hoary? | 07:05 |
| Kinnison | warty | 07:06 |
| froud | Hmm we know it to work on warty | 07:06 |
| Kinnison | I must simply be missing some critical package I can't work out | 07:06 |
| froud | hold to get you the package | 07:07 |
| froud | http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.3/ | 07:09 |
| froud | should be able to get want you need there | 07:09 |
| Kinnison | I have all the files on disk | 07:09 |
| froud | so what does it say is missing | 07:09 |
| Kinnison | it doesn't say anything is missing | 07:10 |
| Kinnison | it just goes to the 'net instead of reading off disc | 07:10 |
| Kinnison | can I tell xsltproc not to do that? | 07:10 |
| froud | ok set -nonet | 07:10 |
| Kinnison | I'll try that and see what it says | 07:10 |
| Kinnison | I/O error : Attempt to load network entity http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.3/docbookx.dtd | 07:11 |
| Kinnison | quickguide/quickguide.xml:8: warning: failed to load external entity "http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.3/docbookx.dtd" | 07:11 |
| Kinnison | ] > | 07:11 |
| Kinnison | ^ | 07:11 |
| froud | aftr -nonet | 07:12 |
| Kinnison | without --nonet it works (slowly as it goes to the net) | 07:12 |
| froud | ok let it run the problem is your catlogs are not working | 07:12 |
| froud | let me find that piece you can export to the env | 07:13 |
| === Kinnison lets it run | ||
| Kinnison | it doesn't honour http_proxy which doesn't help | 07:13 |
| froud | export XML_CATALOG_FILES to your env with the value /usr/share/xml/docbook/schema/dtd/4.3/catalog.xml | 07:14 |
| Kinnison | seems faster | 07:15 |
| froud | Something is strange on Ubuntu's setup of libxml2 | 07:15 |
| Kinnison | okay; that runs to completion | 07:15 |
| Kinnison | with no errors | 07:16 |
| Kinnison | (make status) | 07:16 |
| froud | ok cd build/status | 07:16 |
| froud | you should have xml and html files | 07:16 |
| Kinnison | dsilvers@petitemort:~/dev-svn/ubuntu-doc/trunk/build/status$ ls | 07:16 |
| Kinnison | faq-report.html qg-report.html rn-report.html ug-report.html | 07:16 |
| Kinnison | faq-report.xml qg-report.xml rn-report.xml ug-report.xml | 07:16 |
| Kinnison | that's the lot | 07:16 |
| froud | good | 07:16 |
| froud | ok so it works | 07:16 |
| Kinnison | so something is wrong with the catalog on my system but that's not the docteam's problem | 07:17 |
| === Kinnison hopes that was helpful to you | ||
| froud | its the basis for doing automated status reporting on the doc projects | 07:17 |
| froud | very thanks for your patience :-) | 07:17 |
| Kinnison | no probs | 07:17 |
| froud | l8tr | 07:18 |
| Kinnison | cya | 07:18 |
| === maskie [~maskie@196-30-109-38.uudial.uunet.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| === warthylog [~warthylog@port49.ds1-van.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| === Topic for #ubuntu-doc: Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://irclog.workaround.org | This channel tries to follow the tradition of the #gnome-love channel on irc.gimp.net, all new comers and questions are welcomed, as long as you follow the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct first. | ||
| === Topic (#ubuntu-doc): set by sivang at Sat Jan 1 20:48:30 2005 | ||
| === kbrooks [~kyle@kbrooks.user] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| kbrooks | Hey. | 10:59 |
| kbrooks | brb. | 10:59 |
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