=== kbrooks [~kyle@kbrooks.user] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:39] Hi! [12:44] hey kbrooks ! [12:44] nightly greetins :) [12:44] what's up? [12:45] cool, how may I help you my freind? [12:45] are all questions welcome? :) [12:45] _all_ of them, given they comply with the CoC [12:45] and somewhat related to documentation &&|| ubuntu [12:45] even general questions on ubuntu? [12:45] yes [12:46] however, be adviced that if a proper answer won't be available, you might be offered to write a howto/doc about it :) [12:46] ok...lets see...i would like to do something for the team... does the team need any help? [12:47] yes, very much, curretnly, there are few goals for hoary - [12:47] http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamProjects [12:48] all of this require some content contribution :) [12:48] also, we are testing if our new pages for contribution instrcution are any good, so feel free to go through: [12:48] http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeam [12:49] on comment on ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com about how good it helped you start contributing, [12:49] sort of a survey in a sense :) [12:49] (you have to subscribe first in http://lists.ubuntu.com) [12:55] kbrooks: are you ok there buddy? [12:55] :) [12:56] not really, TBH [12:56] TBH = to be honest? [12:57] well, basically, docs are in the xml docbook format, if you want to contribute but don't want to invest time into reading and learning about it, [12:57] just go add your doc to the wiki, [12:57] then send an email onto the list and there's someone who'd put it there, state your real name so you would get the proper credits. [12:59] and yes TBH = to be honest [12:59] i am trying to upgrade to hoary and a error appeared [01:00] oh, I thought you were interested in doc doing...:) [01:00] but i "fixed" it -- apt-get -f install [01:01] i am. [01:02] ah ok, lemme try and upgrade myself [01:02] but i want to upgrade to hoary [01:02] well, there's a warty-->hoary upgrade doc [01:02] on the wiki [01:02] sivang, i am upgrading to hoary [01:03] debian is to sid as ubuntu is to hoary [01:03] I knwo :) [01:03] ok, then what's the problem? [01:04] gimp was the problem [01:04] now i'm fixing it...brb [01:05] ok, when you're done, just toss your expereicne onto the wiki, and drop a note on the mailing lis t:) [01:06] may i type it in here for you to look at? [01:08] it would be better there, but you could also just send a text file to the list [01:08] that would be best , because it could get lost on irc.. [01:08] it's pretty easy opening an account on the wiki [01:09] OK. I'll type it here (quick) and put it on the wiki..... [01:10] sure cool [01:10] would also get you access to chagne stuff and fix things you see fit [01:11] So...here goes: [01:14] I wanted to upgrade to hoary, so I did "sed -e 's/warty/hoary/g' < /etc/apt/sources.list > /etc/apt/sources.list.new", then I copied over sources.list to sources.list.old and sources.list.new to sources.list. (I nearly asked #ubuntu about the command to update your sources, but i quickly remembered it) Then I did apt-get update and apt-get dist-upgrade. [01:15] Unfortunaely, for me, dpkg exited and the error message told me exactly what happened. [01:17] I reported it in #ubuntu and a solution came up in the form of cding into /var/cache/apt/archives and doing ``dpkg -i --force-overwrite gimp****.deb''. I did so, but then another error message appeared. [01:18] Luckily, help came in the form of reading the error message. [01:18] i did as directed and successfully got it all fixed. [01:21] brb. === kbrooks [~kyle@kbrooks.user] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:39] back. === enrico [~enrico@enrico.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:23] hi enrico ! [03:26] hi sivang ! [03:27] it's been a while our timezones didnt [03:27] overlap [03:32] yes, I tried going back to GMT [03:32] :) [03:32] but didn't work.. [03:33] enrico: what's up? a lot of traffic per day by froud on the mailing list, I can barely keep up :) [03:33] any interesting news bedies the new html doc online? [03:33] bedies? [03:35] sivang: the discussion these days is on the release notes work that trickie is taking care of, and in publishing the HTMLs online [03:39] what are bedies? [03:39] You asked "any interesting news bedies the new html doc online?" [03:39] so I was curious to ask you what are "bedies" :) [03:55] besides :) [03:55] hehe [04:18] The other good news is that Chua is a hero (see the last IRC report) [04:18] And that the DocteamWork wiki page links to lots of useful and nice practical informations === enrico [~enrico@enrico.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jdub [~jdub@home.waugh.id.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:22] hey dudes === shaunm [~shaunm@12-221-67-60.client.insightBB.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:23] yo shaunm [07:23] enrico: ping [07:24] so shaunm [07:24] enrico is probably only gone for a moment === enrico is back [07:24] howdy jdub [07:24] and the rest of the team [07:24] we were wondering what the status of brandable docs in gnome is [07:25] wow! Hello shaunm! [07:25] and how we can help [07:25] people have been talking about working with svn vendor drops to ubuntu-brand the gnome docs, but I remember someone talked about possible better solutions [07:26] so what all do you want to do? [07:26] end of the day, things like the user guide are just going to have to be customized by vendors [07:26] or replaced wholesale [07:27] shaunm: first priority is not forking the documentation ;) [07:27] sure [07:27] bringing relevant vendor branches to the docs seems far more sustainable [07:27] I imagine change some bit here and there to account for visible changes made by the ubuntu devels (if any); if there are chapters that try to be distribution-independent, making them ubuntu-specific, things like that [07:27] maybe adding a chapter about Ubuntu [07:27] but you get things like changes to the panel menu [07:28] and those things are so pervasive [07:28] yeah [07:28] and it would require a lot of conditional rendering [07:28] what do you think about entitising menu locations and so on [07:28] or providing macro-like entities built from gnome-menus? [07:28] plus maintaining documentation of non-stock stuff in the community docs [07:29] there are quite a few instances where that would work [07:29] pulling info directly from .desktop files, gnome-menus, etc. [07:29] which could be a real pain if we had multiple distros doing it, each on their own release cycles and such [07:29] shaunm: let's concentrate on gnome's release cycle, and external branches :) [07:29] It could already be of help to know what branding facilities are already in place for us to use [07:29] and centralised changes to the docs that will have positive ripple effects :) [07:30] the user guide is really the hardest case [07:31] although [07:31] just about every app doc says something like " To run Five or More, select Five or More from the Games submenu of the Main Menu" [07:31] and, you know, if the menu is customized, all those docs are wrong [07:32] that one's a bad example, because docs ought just to use [07:32] I sent a mail to Sean Wheller asking him to join us; I hope he's around [07:32] shaunm: could we pull that information from gnome-menus? :) [07:32] shaunm: ah, ok. I was about to say: we already entitysed menus and we have those things autogenerated for other things [07:32] jdub: potentially, but then you're locking the documents into yelp [07:32] what happens when you just run gnome-doc-utils on the file to build html for the web? [07:33] shaunm: could do it at build time; that complicates things though [07:33] kde uses a docbook customization, and it annoys me [07:33] it complicated things considerably, yes [07:34] sigh [07:34] how I wish docbook profiling weren't so messed up [07:35] hrm, on phone for a bit, sorry :| [07:36] shaunm: so, the best option so far is using vendor drops to change the bits that need changing? [07:36] at the moment, yes [07:36] I'm afraid we just don't have the infastructure in place for anything very sophisticated [07:37] Is there something less sophisticated that can be done, besides tweaking entities? [07:37] (I'm trying to ask meaningful questions hoping that someone more knowledgeable than me will join us soon) [07:39] well, so [07:39] can we see some specific problems? [07:39] the real problem with documentation is that everything is free-flowing prose [07:40] and so if you just do these little replacements here and there, you often end up with very awkward prose [07:41] I see the problem. Well, I heard of branding efforts being going on and I was wondering, but after this conversation I think we could just go on with vendor drops and then send you some patches sometimes if we improve something you could use [07:43] well [07:43] see, I don't really work on any of the distros' stuff [07:43] and so I don't see the problems as much [07:44] to get all this stuff right, we need to get representatives from the big gnome distros [07:44] and lock them all in a room with me [07:44] jdub: can you take care of that? :) [07:45] and preferably some kde folks as well [07:45] shaunm: so, noone has been branding the User's Manual so far? [07:45] because a lot of this should happen in a cross-desktop way [07:45] enrico: no, you guys are the first distro to give a damn [07:46] Ah, ok, cool. Then we can pioneer the effort and see what happens [07:46] I've been smacking RH for years now [07:46] and I still can't get them to put all their docs in scrollkeeper [07:47] Luckily, we have dh_scrollkeeper that does a good part of the job :) [07:47] oh, what's that? [07:47] some day, I'll get around to putting together The One True Help System [07:47] and I'll beat everybody until they switch their systems over to it [07:47] and the world will rejoice [07:48] A Debianization tool that automatically looks for a OMF file with a standard name and takes care to make it so that the .deb package installs it correctly [07:48] You need at least Two True Help Systems, so that everyone can use something that someone else doesn't use. The trick is making them compatible :) [07:48] :) [07:49] clever [07:49] maybe I'll make another one under a pseodonym [07:49] have flame wars with myself [07:49] finally get the integration work right between the two [07:50] You can make a secret deal with a KDE person [07:52] Ok, froud is evidently not around to ask some more specific questions; I'll post this conversation to the list in tomorrow's IRC report, then we can give a try to packaging the Gnome User's Manual as well [07:53] oh, froud's asked me *lots* of questions already [07:53] most of which I haven't had satisfactory answers to [07:53] Ah, ok, you're already in touch with him already [07:54] he comes into #docs on gimpnet from time to time [07:55] so anyway [07:55] getting *really* good vendorified docs involves changing screenshots as well === enrico is going out [07:56] wimp :P [07:56] We tried to address the screenshots as well [07:56] wiki.ubuntu.com/TakingScreenshots [07:56] Froud did quite a good job on that === enrico needs to go [07:56] oh very good [07:56] my girlfriend is pulling me by my hair [07:56] go go go [07:57] I have very long hair, which makes her work easier :) [07:57] shaunm: thanks a lot! I'll post things in tomorrow's IRC report. See you! === froud [~sean@ndn-165-141-101.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:25] African Greetings [08:35] and here's froud [08:36] hey dude [08:37] just reading th elogs [08:37] now finsihed [08:37] MOst problems can be managed if the build is static [08:37] i.e. X/HTML [08:37] with sufficient build magic, yes [08:38] see Yelp will now support [08:38] yes, I would like to reduce the preprocessing [08:38] problems such as ghelp:foo [08:38] yeah, ghelp sucks [08:38] these are a problem [08:38] olinks? [08:39] xrefs for internal [08:39] olinks for ext [08:39] yelp does not support olinks [08:39] and as I said to you the formatting of xrefs is wacked [08:40] how would you prefer them formatted? [08:40] same font as current block [08:40] yelp doesn't change the font for xrefs [08:40] I get a different or larger font size [08:41] but then I am not on the last version [08:41] perhaps tis fixed [08:41] what version? [08:41] 2.6.1 [08:41] that's odd [08:41] I've never known that to happen [08:42] well it may be fixed in new versions [08:42] yelp 2.6 doesn't do any font-mangling, iirc, so it might be a gtkhtml2 thing [08:42] sure the depend thing is a nightmare [08:42] speaking of dependancies [08:43] you heard the vendor drops idea [08:43] what do you think [08:44] essentially we would build user guide as a patchy on your vendor drop [08:44] Perhaps we would have to use XPointer extensively [08:45] I worry about having dozens of vendor drops [08:45] yes it is problematic [08:46] but essentially we would want to drop in the gnome and later when we have kde, that too [08:47] thing is we would need to drop the whole GNOME app and doc source. Is that right? === falco [~Jail@a81-84-137-51.netcabo.pt] has joined #Ubuntu-doc [08:47] your docs are kept with each app under C/ [08:48] so they are not in one place, like docs, is that right? [08:49] lots of SGML stuff too I see [08:50] none of the user docs are in sgml [08:50] just an sgml extension then? [08:50] but yes, generally each app contains its own documentation [08:50] where do you see sgml? [08:50] GIMP [08:50] phone call [08:50] ah, I'm not responsible for gimp [08:50] they don't even use the gnome help system [08:52] morning guys [08:52] so does anything actually support olink? [08:58] I am back [08:58] shaunm, straight docbook transfroms using nwalsh xsl === falco [~Jail@a81-84-137-51.netcabo.pt] has joined #Ubuntu-doc [08:59] The main concern at ubuntu is to produce a source that is portable across pointential future desktops [09:00] at present we have two upstreams, debian and gnome [09:00] in future we may have kde and perhaps other desktops [09:01] The most compatible target format is X/HTML [09:01] So we need to do things in the db src that will work with the nwalsh transfroms [09:02] froud: and what does it do with them? [09:02] essentially it resolved references between documents [09:02] external refs [09:02] you need to maintain an olinks database [09:02] so preprocessing is required [09:03] but at least you can say, "See Chapter X of the Other Guide [09:04] I think that olinks is not such a high requirement for now [09:04] P4 [09:04] hmm [09:04] but eventually will need [09:04] xrefs for internal references [09:05] I dont like link [09:05] ulink for URI [09:05] link has its advantages [09:05] but olinks is complicated for users and apps like yelp [09:05] olinks are very complicated, yes [09:06] not when you may want to do xsl:fo later [09:06] and their behavior is application-defined [09:06] agreed [09:06] hence I would hold off on olink [09:06] and I've already deviated from norm on a number of other application-defined things [09:06] like xrefstyle [09:06] yes I see this === plovs_work [~plovs@195.13.248.84] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:07] point is people here like yelp [09:07] cause they dont have to transform [09:07] but yelp has its limits [09:07] certainly [09:07] conformance to yelp in our source can cause locking to yelp [09:08] something we wantto avoid [09:08] of course [09:08] so I am thinking the best is xml > X/HTML [09:08] the meta stuff from scrollkeep can come later [09:09] kde also has its problems [09:09] and processing from .desktop files is not going to be a stable solution [09:10] in fact I have not seen a standard for .desktop [09:10] it's on freedesktop.org [09:10] it's a bit under-specified, imo, but the glib and kde implementations pretty much agree [09:10] I think you are right, we need intervention from freedesktop [09:11] if we ever make a shared help system, it will likely use .desktop files [09:11] ok [09:11] sounds good, must look for this standard [09:11] because it's what kde wants, and it's a compromise I'm willing to make [09:12] another problem with yelp is that it is hard to custom [09:12] honestly, I don't think docbook is perfectly suited for application docs in its current form [09:12] who has the time to create a new xml app [09:12] not me [09:12] I think it works [09:13] it basically works, yeah [09:13] the semantics are a bit off [09:13] sure [09:13] I wouldn't dream of doing a gnome-only customization though [09:13] agreed :-) [09:13] I'd like to see an official docbook derivative more suited to this sort of thing [09:13] that kde and gnome and hopefully others would embrace [09:14] what sort of customizations do you want to do to yelp? [09:14] it wont be that easy [09:14] well it would be nice to be able to customize the look and feel of the content [09:14] do you want to cusotmize the look of the rendered documents? [09:14] or the topics listings? [09:14] and include jscripts for special stuff [09:15] well, any distro can tweak yelp's db2html.xsl [09:15] yes, we can but I was thinking more simple [09:15] have a file that yelp can load [09:15] the file defines the customs [09:15] like a docbook custom layer [09:16] but what would the file contain? [09:16] much what a db cust layer does today [09:16] things like are captions before or after images [09:16] oh, so just parameter setting? [09:16] glossary.collection [09:17] and template customs too [09:17] support for index on////off [09:17] well, at that level you just have to write xslt anyway [09:17] on/off [09:17] hmm [09:17] why would you want to turn indexes off? [09:17] yes but just the custom layer not the source cxsl [09:17] (ignoring the fact that they don't work right now) [09:18] some people do want it [09:18] sometimes the doc is not indexed [09:18] well, right, but that's easily detected [09:19] in custlayer can also specify css [09:19] and javascript [09:19] for example on task [09:19] to have topic with intro [09:19] and gather associated tasks via javascript [09:19] pick list [09:19] expand and collapse [09:20] etc [09:20] an dthis gem [09:20] to be able to add notes to docs under yelp [09:20] user custom [09:20] ok, hold on a minute [09:20] most of these are features, features I've thought about before, and damn cool features [09:20] user writes note, is saved local and displays when the topic is loaded [09:20] why don't you just implement and send upstream? [09:21] I am a writer not a coder :-( [09:21] and wow, somebody besides me thought of notes [09:21] well, yeah, but who's going to do all these customizations for ubuntu? [09:21] I do the docbook [09:21] and xsl [09:21] because that person should just start hacking yelp [09:22] if you dont mind giving me guidedance [09:22] I see notes on two levels [09:22] user and admin [09:22] user on localhost [09:22] admin on server [09:22] would be nice for admins to be able to push notes to users [09:23] yes, exactly [09:23] and for admins to collect notes [09:23] and push to GNOME or whoever [09:23] user / admin feedback [09:24] help pages are too static [09:24] they need to live [09:25] expand/collapse of lists etc [09:25] can help [09:25] and notes [09:25] no more one col top to bottom [09:25] click next to proceed [09:26] we need links in body text and in sidebars [09:26] I have a javascript to do this. I wrote it for a customer [09:27] The each topic collects related tasks [09:27] the list is expand and collapse [09:27] I've talked about submitting notes and such up to bugzilla through yelp [09:27] I have notes too, but did not impliment is [09:27] which would be nice [09:28] The customer has a custom browser that captures the notes [09:28] definitely if there were some sort of note thing, it would be good to be able to send up the notes [09:28] trap [09:28] agreed [09:28] I absolutely want expanding/collapsing sections [09:29] yes, we dont do that, but on groups of task we collect them under a heading that can be expanded [09:29] sure [09:29] but it's the same bit of javascript [09:29] for example the task of formatting has many tasks [09:29] yes [09:29] the notes is something else [09:29] yes [09:29] problem is I can't release it GPL [09:29] they'd be most useful if they could be anchored to a particular place in the page [09:30] it belongs to the customer now [09:30] we're working on that :-) [09:30] essentially our aim is to allow the user to optimize the help screen real-estate to their requirement [09:30] that inlcudes inside topics [09:31] I would like to see the same for OSS help, starting with Ubuntu [09:31] there are many challenges at Ubuntu [09:31] but we are we are willing [09:32] the good thing is we are at the start [09:32] we can mold and shape things [09:32] on most projects you cant [09:32] the legacy does not permit it === froud points to GNOME and KDE :-) [09:33] right [09:33] so how do you think we can get traction on this [09:33] a big problem I've faced with designing a new help system is that it must maintain backwards compatibility to both scrollkeeper and kde's help system [09:33] I mean all the points discussed [09:34] 1. vendor drops 2. improvement on yelp [09:34] oh hold on [09:34] I just bit my tongue really hard [09:34] ouch! [09:35] shaunm, where do you want to put the notes? some wiki-like backend? [09:36] i meant, froud off-course [09:36] man, that really hurts [09:36] no wiki [09:36]