[12:39] <kbrooks> Hi!
[12:44] <sivang> hey kbrooks !
[12:44] <sivang> nightly greetins :)
[12:44] <kbrooks> what's up?
[12:45] <sivang> cool, how may I help you my freind?
[12:45] <kbrooks> are all questions welcome? :)
[12:45] <sivang> _all_ of them, given they comply with the CoC
[12:45] <sivang> and somewhat related to documentation &&|| ubuntu
[12:45] <kbrooks> even general questions on ubuntu?
[12:45] <sivang> yes
[12:46] <sivang> however, be adviced that if a proper answer won't be available, you might be offered to write a howto/doc about it :)
[12:46] <kbrooks> ok...lets see...i would like to do something for the team... does the team need any help?
[12:47] <sivang> yes, very much, curretnly, there are few goals for hoary - 
[12:47] <sivang> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamProjects
[12:48] <sivang> all of this require some content contribution :)
[12:48] <sivang> also, we are testing if our new pages for contribution instrcution are any good, so feel free to go through:
[12:48] <sivang> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeam
[12:49] <sivang> on comment on ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com about how good it helped you start contributing,
[12:49] <sivang> sort of a survey in a sense :)
[12:49] <sivang> (you have to subscribe first in http://lists.ubuntu.com)
[12:55] <sivang> kbrooks: are you ok there buddy?
[12:55] <sivang> :)
[12:56] <kbrooks> not really, TBH
[12:56] <sivang> TBH = to be honest?
[12:57] <sivang> well, basically, docs are in the xml docbook format, if you want to contribute but don't want to invest time into reading and learning about it,
[12:57] <sivang> just go add your doc to the wiki,
[12:57] <sivang> then send an email onto the list and there's someone who'd put it there, state your real name so you would get the proper credits.
[12:59] <kbrooks> and yes TBH = to be honest
[12:59] <kbrooks> i am trying to upgrade to hoary and a error appeared
[01:00] <sivang> oh, I thought you were interested in doc doing...:)
[01:00] <kbrooks> but i "fixed" it -- apt-get -f install
[01:01] <kbrooks> i am.
[01:02] <sivang> ah ok, lemme try and upgrade myself
[01:02] <kbrooks> but i want to upgrade to hoary
[01:02] <sivang> well, there's a warty-->hoary upgrade doc
[01:02] <sivang> on the wiki
[01:02] <kbrooks> sivang, i am upgrading to hoary
[01:03] <kbrooks> debian is to sid as ubuntu is to hoary
[01:03] <sivang> I knwo :)
[01:03] <sivang> ok, then what's the problem?
[01:04] <kbrooks> gimp was the problem
[01:04] <kbrooks> now i'm fixing it...brb
[01:05] <sivang> ok, when you're done, just toss your expereicne onto the wiki, and drop a note on the mailing lis t:)
[01:06] <kbrooks> may i type it in here for you to look at?
[01:08] <sivang> it would be better there, but you could also just send a text file to the list
[01:08] <sivang> that would be best , because it could get lost on irc..
[01:08] <sivang> it's pretty easy opening an account on the wiki
[01:09] <kbrooks> OK. I'll type it here (quick) and put it on the wiki.....
[01:10] <sivang> sure cool
[01:10] <sivang> would also get you access to chagne stuff and fix things you see fit
[01:11] <kbrooks> So...here goes:
[01:14] <kbrooks> I wanted to upgrade to hoary, so I  did "sed -e 's/warty/hoary/g' < /etc/apt/sources.list > /etc/apt/sources.list.new", then I copied over sources.list to sources.list.old and sources.list.new to sources.list. (I nearly asked #ubuntu about the command to update your sources, but i quickly remembered it) Then I did apt-get update and apt-get dist-upgrade.
[01:15] <kbrooks> Unfortunaely, for me, dpkg exited and the error message told me exactly what happened.
[01:17] <kbrooks> I reported it in #ubuntu and a solution came up in the form of cding into /var/cache/apt/archives and doing ``dpkg -i --force-overwrite gimp****.deb''. I did so, but then another error message appeared.
[01:18] <kbrooks> Luckily, help came in the form of reading the error message.
[01:18] <kbrooks> i did as directed and successfully got it all fixed.
[01:21] <kbrooks> brb.
[02:39] <kbrooks> back.
[03:23] <sivang> hi enrico !
[03:26] <enrico> hi sivang !
[03:27] <enrico> it's been a while our timezones didnt
[03:27] <enrico> overlap
[03:32] <sivang> yes, I tried going back to GMT
[03:32] <sivang> :)
[03:32] <sivang> but didn't work..
[03:33] <sivang> enrico: what's up? a lot of traffic per day by froud on the mailing list, I can barely keep up :)
[03:33] <sivang> any interesting news bedies the new html doc online?
[03:33] <enrico> bedies?
[03:35] <enrico> sivang: the discussion these days is on the release notes work that trickie is taking care of, and in publishing the HTMLs online
[03:39] <sivang> what are bedies?
[03:39] <enrico> You asked "any interesting news bedies the new html doc online?"
[03:39] <enrico> so I was curious to ask you what are "bedies" :)
[03:55] <sivang> besides :)
[03:55] <sivang> hehe
[04:18] <enrico> The other good news is that Chua is a hero (see the last IRC report)
[04:18] <enrico> And that the DocteamWork wiki page links to lots of useful and nice practical informations
[07:22] <jdub> hey dudes
[07:23] <jdub> yo shaunm 
[07:23] <jdub> enrico: ping
[07:24] <jdub> so shaunm 
[07:24] <jdub> enrico is probably only gone for a moment
[07:24] <shaunm> howdy jdub
[07:24] <shaunm> and the rest of the team
[07:24] <jdub> we were wondering what the status of brandable docs in gnome is
[07:25] <enrico> wow!  Hello shaunm!
[07:25] <jdub> and how we can help
[07:25] <enrico> people have been talking about working with svn vendor drops to ubuntu-brand the gnome docs, but I remember someone talked about possible better solutions
[07:26] <shaunm> so what all do you want to do?
[07:26] <shaunm> end of the day, things like the user guide are just going to have to be customized by vendors
[07:26] <shaunm> or replaced wholesale
[07:27] <jdub> shaunm: first priority is not forking the documentation ;)
[07:27] <shaunm> sure
[07:27] <jdub> bringing relevant vendor branches to the docs seems far more sustainable
[07:27] <enrico> I imagine change some bit here and there to account for visible changes made by the ubuntu devels (if any); if there are chapters that try to be distribution-independent, making them ubuntu-specific, things like that
[07:27] <enrico> maybe adding a chapter about Ubuntu
[07:27] <shaunm> but you get things like changes to the panel menu
[07:28] <shaunm> and those things are so pervasive
[07:28] <jdub> yeah
[07:28] <shaunm> and it would require a lot of conditional rendering
[07:28] <jdub> what do you think about entitising menu locations and so on
[07:28] <jdub> or providing macro-like entities built from gnome-menus?
[07:28] <shaunm> plus maintaining documentation of non-stock stuff in the community docs
[07:29] <jdub> there are quite a few instances where that would work
[07:29] <jdub> pulling info directly from .desktop files, gnome-menus, etc.
[07:29] <shaunm> which could be a real pain if we had multiple distros doing it, each on their own release cycles and such
[07:29] <jdub> shaunm: let's concentrate on gnome's release cycle, and external branches :)
[07:29] <enrico> It could already be of help to know what branding facilities are already in place for us to use
[07:29] <jdub> and centralised changes to the docs that will have positive ripple effects :)
[07:30] <shaunm> the user guide is really the hardest case
[07:31] <shaunm> although
[07:31] <shaunm> just about every app doc says something like " To run Five or More, select Five or More from the Games submenu of the Main Menu"
[07:31] <shaunm> and, you know, if the menu is customized, all those docs are wrong
[07:32] <shaunm> that one's a bad example, because docs ought just to use <menuchoice>
[07:32] <enrico> I sent a mail to Sean Wheller asking him to join us; I hope he's around
[07:32] <jdub> shaunm: could we pull that information from gnome-menus? :)
[07:32] <enrico> shaunm: ah, ok.  I was about to say: we already entitysed menus and we have those things autogenerated for other things
[07:32] <shaunm> jdub: potentially, but then you're locking the documents into yelp
[07:32] <shaunm> what happens when you just run gnome-doc-utils on the file to build html for the web?
[07:33] <jdub> shaunm: could do it at build time; that complicates things though
[07:33] <shaunm> kde uses a docbook customization, and it annoys me
[07:33] <shaunm> it complicated things considerably, yes
[07:34] <shaunm> sigh
[07:34] <shaunm> how I wish docbook profiling weren't so messed up
[07:35] <jdub> hrm, on phone for a bit, sorry :|
[07:36] <enrico> shaunm: so, the best option so far is using vendor drops to change the bits that need changing?
[07:36] <shaunm> at the moment, yes
[07:36] <shaunm> I'm afraid we just don't have the infastructure in place for anything very sophisticated
[07:37] <enrico> Is there something less sophisticated that can be done, besides tweaking entities?
[07:37] <enrico> (I'm trying to ask meaningful questions hoping that someone more knowledgeable than me will join us soon)
[07:39] <shaunm> well, so
[07:39] <shaunm> can we see some specific problems?
[07:39] <shaunm> the real problem with documentation is that everything is free-flowing prose
[07:40] <shaunm> and so if you just do these little replacements here and there, you often end up with very awkward prose
[07:41] <enrico> I see the problem.  Well, I heard of branding efforts being going on and I was wondering, but after this conversation I think we could just go on with vendor drops and then send you some patches sometimes if we improve something you could use
[07:43] <shaunm> well
[07:43] <shaunm> see, I don't really work on any of the distros' stuff
[07:43] <shaunm> and so I don't see the problems as much
[07:44] <shaunm> to get all this stuff right, we need to get representatives from the big gnome distros
[07:44] <shaunm> and lock them all in a room with me
[07:44] <enrico> jdub: can you take care of that? :)
[07:45] <shaunm> and preferably some kde folks as well
[07:45] <enrico> shaunm: so, noone has been branding the User's Manual so far?
[07:45] <shaunm> because a lot of this should happen in a cross-desktop way
[07:45] <shaunm> enrico: no, you guys are the first distro to give a damn
[07:46] <enrico> Ah, ok, cool.  Then we can pioneer the effort and see what happens
[07:46] <shaunm> I've been smacking RH for years now
[07:46] <shaunm> and I still can't get them to put all their docs in scrollkeeper
[07:47] <enrico> Luckily, we have dh_scrollkeeper that does a good part of the job :)
[07:47] <shaunm> oh, what's that?
[07:47] <shaunm> some day, I'll get around to putting together The One True Help System
[07:47] <shaunm> and I'll beat everybody until they switch their systems over to it
[07:47] <shaunm> and the world will rejoice
[07:48] <enrico> A Debianization tool that automatically looks for a OMF file with a standard name and takes care to make it so that the .deb package installs it correctly
[07:48] <enrico> You need at least Two True Help Systems, so that everyone can use something that someone else doesn't use.  The trick is making them compatible :)
[07:48] <shaunm> :)
[07:49] <shaunm> clever
[07:49] <shaunm> maybe I'll make another one under a pseodonym
[07:49] <shaunm> have flame wars with myself
[07:49] <shaunm> finally get the integration work right between the two
[07:50] <enrico> You can make a secret deal with a KDE person
[07:52] <enrico> Ok, froud is evidently not around to ask some more specific questions; I'll post this conversation to the list in tomorrow's IRC report, then we can give a try to packaging the Gnome User's Manual as well
[07:53] <shaunm> oh, froud's asked me *lots* of questions already
[07:53] <shaunm> most of which I haven't had satisfactory answers to
[07:53] <enrico> Ah, ok, you're already in touch with him already
[07:54] <shaunm> he comes into #docs on gimpnet from time to time
[07:55] <shaunm> so anyway
[07:55] <shaunm> getting *really* good vendorified docs involves changing screenshots as well
[07:56] <shaunm> wimp :P
[07:56] <enrico> We tried to address the screenshots as well
[07:56] <enrico> wiki.ubuntu.com/TakingScreenshots
[07:56] <enrico> Froud did quite a good job on that
[07:56] <shaunm> oh very good
[07:56] <enrico> my girlfriend is pulling me by my hair
[07:56] <shaunm> go go go
[07:57] <enrico> I have very long hair, which makes her work easier :)
[07:57] <enrico> shaunm: thanks a lot!  I'll post things in tomorrow's IRC report.  See you!
[08:25] <froud> African Greetings
[08:35] <shaunm> and here's froud 
[08:36] <froud> hey dude
[08:37] <froud> just reading th elogs
[08:37] <froud> now finsihed
[08:37] <froud> MOst problems can be managed if the build is static
[08:37] <froud> i.e. X/HTML
[08:37] <shaunm> with sufficient build magic, yes
[08:38] <froud> see Yelp will now support
[08:38] <froud> yes, I would like to reduce the preprocessing
[08:38] <froud> problems such as ghelp:foo
[08:38] <shaunm> yeah, ghelp sucks
[08:38] <froud> these are a problem
[08:38] <froud> olinks?
[08:39] <froud> xrefs for internal
[08:39] <froud> olinks for ext
[08:39] <froud> yelp does not support olinks
[08:39] <froud> and as I said to you the formatting of xrefs is wacked
[08:40] <shaunm> how would you prefer them formatted?
[08:40] <froud> same font as current block
[08:40] <shaunm> yelp doesn't change the font for xrefs
[08:40] <froud> I get a different or larger font size
[08:41] <froud> but then I am not on the last version
[08:41] <froud> perhaps tis fixed
[08:41] <shaunm> what version?
[08:41] <froud> 2.6.1
[08:41] <shaunm> that's odd
[08:41] <shaunm> I've never known that to happen
[08:42] <froud> well it may be fixed in new versions
[08:42] <shaunm> yelp 2.6 doesn't do any font-mangling, iirc, so it might be a gtkhtml2 thing
[08:42] <froud> sure the depend thing is a nightmare
[08:42] <froud> speaking of dependancies
[08:43] <froud> you heard the vendor drops idea
[08:43] <froud> what do you think
[08:44] <froud> essentially we would build user guide as a patchy on your vendor drop
[08:44] <froud> Perhaps we would have to use XPointer extensively
[08:45] <shaunm> I worry about having dozens of vendor drops
[08:45] <froud> yes it is problematic
[08:46] <froud> but essentially we would want to drop in the gnome and later when we have kde, that too
[08:47] <froud> thing is we would need to drop the whole GNOME app and doc source. Is that right?
[08:47] <froud> your docs are kept with each app under C/
[08:48] <froud> so they are not in one place, like docs, is that right?
[08:49] <froud> lots of SGML stuff too I see
[08:50] <shaunm> none of the user docs are in sgml
[08:50] <froud> just an sgml extension then?
[08:50] <shaunm> but yes, generally each app contains its own documentation
[08:50] <shaunm> where do you see sgml?
[08:50] <froud> GIMP
[08:50] <froud> phone call
[08:50] <shaunm> ah, I'm not responsible for gimp
[08:50] <shaunm> they don't even use the gnome help system
[08:52] <plovs> morning guys
[08:52] <shaunm> so does anything actually support olink?
[08:58] <froud> I am back
[08:58] <froud> shaunm, straight docbook transfroms using nwalsh xsl
[08:59] <froud> The main concern at ubuntu is to produce a source that is portable across pointential future desktops
[09:00] <froud> at present we have two upstreams, debian and gnome
[09:00] <froud> in future we may have kde and perhaps other desktops
[09:01] <froud> The most compatible target format is X/HTML
[09:01] <froud> So we need to do things in the db src that will work with the nwalsh transfroms
[09:02] <shaunm> froud: and what does it do with them?
[09:02] <froud> essentially it resolved references between documents
[09:02] <froud> external refs
[09:02] <froud> you need to maintain an olinks database
[09:02] <froud> so preprocessing is required
[09:03] <froud> but at least you can say, "See Chapter X of the Other Guide
[09:04] <froud> I think that olinks is not such a high requirement for now
[09:04] <froud> P4
[09:04] <shaunm> hmm
[09:04] <froud> but eventually will need
[09:04] <froud> xrefs for internal references
[09:05] <froud> I dont like link
[09:05] <froud> ulink for URI
[09:05] <shaunm> link has its advantages
[09:05] <froud> but olinks is complicated for users and apps like yelp
[09:05] <shaunm> olinks are very complicated, yes
[09:06] <froud> not when you may want to do xsl:fo later
[09:06] <shaunm> and their behavior is application-defined
[09:06] <froud> agreed
[09:06] <froud> hence I would hold off on olink
[09:06] <shaunm> and I've already deviated from norm on a number of other application-defined things
[09:06] <shaunm> like xrefstyle
[09:06] <froud> yes I see this
[09:07] <froud> point is people here like yelp
[09:07] <froud> cause they dont have to transform
[09:07] <froud> but yelp has its limits
[09:07] <shaunm> certainly
[09:07] <froud> conformance to yelp in our source can cause locking to yelp
[09:08] <froud> something we wantto avoid
[09:08] <shaunm> of course
[09:08] <froud> so I am thinking the best is xml > X/HTML
[09:08] <froud> the meta stuff from scrollkeep can come later
[09:09] <froud> kde also has its problems
[09:09] <froud> and processing from .desktop files is not going to be a stable solution
[09:10] <froud> in fact I have not seen a standard for .desktop
[09:10] <shaunm> it's on freedesktop.org
[09:10] <shaunm> it's a bit under-specified, imo, but the glib and kde implementations pretty much agree
[09:10] <froud> I think you are right, we need intervention from freedesktop
[09:11] <shaunm> if we ever make a shared help system, it will likely use .desktop files
[09:11] <froud> ok
[09:11] <froud> sounds good, must look for this standard
[09:11] <shaunm> because it's what kde wants, and it's a compromise I'm willing to make
[09:12] <froud> another problem with yelp is that it is hard to custom
[09:12] <shaunm> honestly, I don't think docbook is perfectly suited for application docs in its current form
[09:12] <froud> who has the time to create a new xml app
[09:12] <froud> not me
[09:12] <froud> I think it works
[09:13] <shaunm> it basically works, yeah
[09:13] <shaunm> the semantics are a bit off
[09:13] <froud> sure
[09:13] <shaunm> I wouldn't dream of doing a gnome-only customization though
[09:13] <froud> agreed :-)
[09:13] <shaunm> I'd like to see an official docbook derivative more suited to this sort of thing
[09:13] <shaunm> that kde and gnome and hopefully others would embrace
[09:14] <shaunm> what sort of customizations do you want to do to yelp?
[09:14] <froud> it wont be that easy
[09:14] <froud> well it would be nice to be able to customize the look and feel of the content
[09:14] <shaunm> do you want to cusotmize the look of the rendered documents?
[09:14] <shaunm> or the topics listings?
[09:14] <froud> and include jscripts for special stuff
[09:15] <shaunm> well, any distro can tweak yelp's db2html.xsl
[09:15] <froud> yes, we can but I was thinking more simple
[09:15] <froud> have a file that yelp can load
[09:15] <froud> the file defines the customs
[09:15] <froud> like a docbook custom layer
[09:16] <shaunm> but what would the file contain?
[09:16] <froud> much what a db cust layer does today
[09:16] <froud> things like are captions before or after images
[09:16] <shaunm> oh, so just parameter setting?
[09:16] <froud> glossary.collection
[09:17] <froud> and template customs too
[09:17] <froud> support for index on////off
[09:17] <shaunm> well, at that level you just have to write xslt anyway
[09:17] <froud> on/off
[09:17] <shaunm> hmm
[09:17] <shaunm> why would you want to turn indexes off?
[09:17] <froud> yes but just the custom layer not the source cxsl
[09:17] <shaunm> (ignoring the fact that they don't work right now)
[09:18] <froud> some people do want it
[09:18] <froud> sometimes the doc is not indexed
[09:18] <shaunm> well, right, but that's easily detected
[09:19] <froud> in custlayer can also specify css
[09:19] <froud> and javascript
[09:19] <froud> for example on task
[09:19] <froud> to have topic with intro
[09:19] <froud> and gather associated tasks via javascript
[09:19] <froud> pick list
[09:19] <froud> expand and collapse
[09:20] <froud> etc
[09:20] <froud> an dthis gem
[09:20] <froud> to be able to add notes to docs under yelp
[09:20] <froud> user custom
[09:20] <shaunm> ok, hold on a minute
[09:20] <shaunm> most of these are features, features I've thought about before, and damn cool features
[09:20] <froud> user writes note, is saved local and displays when the topic is loaded
[09:20] <shaunm> why don't you just implement and send upstream?
[09:21] <froud> I am a writer not a coder :-(
[09:21] <shaunm> and wow, somebody besides me thought of notes
[09:21] <shaunm> well, yeah, but who's going to do all these customizations for ubuntu?
[09:21] <froud> I do the docbook
[09:21] <froud> and xsl
[09:21] <shaunm> because that person should just start hacking yelp
[09:22] <froud> if you dont mind giving me guidedance
[09:22] <froud> I see notes on two levels
[09:22] <froud> user and admin
[09:22] <froud> user on localhost
[09:22] <froud> admin on server
[09:22] <shaunm> would be nice for admins to be able to push notes to users
[09:23] <froud> yes, exactly
[09:23] <froud> and for admins to collect notes
[09:23] <froud> and push to GNOME or whoever
[09:23] <froud> user / admin feedback
[09:24] <froud> help pages are too static
[09:24] <froud> they need to live
[09:25] <froud> expand/collapse of lists etc
[09:25] <froud> can help
[09:25] <froud> and notes
[09:25] <froud> no more one col top to bottom
[09:25] <froud> click next to proceed
[09:26] <froud> we need links in body text and in sidebars
[09:26] <froud> I have a javascript to do this. I wrote it for a customer
[09:27] <froud> The each topic collects related tasks
[09:27] <froud> the list is expand and collapse
[09:27] <shaunm> I've talked about submitting notes and such up to bugzilla through yelp
[09:27] <froud> I have notes too, but did not impliment is
[09:27] <shaunm> which would be nice
[09:28] <froud> The customer has a custom browser that captures the notes
[09:28] <shaunm> definitely if there were some sort of note thing, it would be good to be able to send up the notes
[09:28] <froud> trap
[09:28] <froud> agreed
[09:28] <shaunm> I absolutely want expanding/collapsing sections
[09:29] <froud> yes, we dont do that, but on groups of task we collect them under a heading that can be expanded
[09:29] <shaunm> sure
[09:29] <shaunm> but it's the same bit of javascript
[09:29] <froud> for example the task of formatting has many tasks
[09:29] <froud> yes
[09:29] <froud> the notes is something else
[09:29] <shaunm> yes
[09:29] <froud> problem is I can't release it GPL
[09:29] <shaunm> they'd be most useful if they could be anchored to a particular place in the page
[09:30] <froud> it belongs to the customer now
[09:30] <froud> we're working on that :-)
[09:30] <froud> essentially our aim is to allow the user to optimize the help screen real-estate to their requirement
[09:30] <froud> that inlcudes inside topics
[09:31] <froud> I would like to see the same for OSS help, starting with Ubuntu
[09:31] <froud> there are many challenges at Ubuntu
[09:31] <froud> but we are we are willing
[09:32] <froud> the good thing is we are at the start
[09:32] <froud> we can mold and shape things
[09:32] <froud> on most projects you cant
[09:32] <froud> the legacy does not permit it
[09:33] <shaunm> right
[09:33] <froud> so how do you think we can get traction on this
[09:33] <shaunm> a big problem I've faced with designing a new help system is that it must maintain backwards compatibility to both scrollkeeper and kde's help system
[09:33] <froud> I mean all the points discussed
[09:34] <froud> 1. vendor drops 2. improvement on yelp
[09:34] <shaunm> oh hold on
[09:34] <shaunm> I just bit my tongue really hard
[09:34] <froud> ouch!
[09:35] <plovs_work> shaunm, where do you want to put the notes? some wiki-like backend?
[09:36] <plovs_work> i meant, froud off-course
[09:36] <shaunm> man, that really hurts
[09:36] <froud> no wiki
[09:36] <froud> wiki is messy
[09:37] <shaunm> froud++
[09:37] <plovs_work> froud, personal notes, or uploadable, and uploadable to where?
[09:37] <froud> in client server?
[09:37] <froud> on the server with help loaded from server
[09:37] <froud> that is in Remote X
[09:37] <shaunm> I wouldn't want to require net connectivity to use notes
[09:38] <froud> on local host under .notes
[09:38] <froud> or something
[09:38] <shaunm> if I'm on my laptop on an airplane, I should be able to write a little note to myself
[09:38] <shaunm> I should be able to write notes that are just *mine*
[09:38] <froud> used something like iFolder for sync
[09:38] <shaunm> I don't think notes should be pushed to others without an explicit action
[09:38] <froud> yes, that is like iFolder
[09:38] <plovs_work> and maybe uploadable to bugzilla so good notes don't get lost
[09:39] <shaunm> yes, totally
[09:39] <froud> yes eventual integration
[09:39] <froud> what about a web service
[09:39] <froud> pass notes as xml
[09:39] <froud> to web service
[09:39] <shaunm> well, bugzilla talking is likely to come in 2.12
[09:40] <froud> but web services can be added to bgz
[09:40] <shaunm> they hopefully will be
[09:40] <plovs_work> shaunm, can/will yelp be able to show html?
[09:40] <shaunm> it's been talked about a lot
[09:41] <shaunm> plovs_work: it can
[09:41] <froud> of course the xml-instance trasmitted must be in a valid format for bgz
[09:41] <froud> plovs, it will
[09:41] <shaunm> always has been able to
[09:41] <shaunm> except for about the last two weeks, because I accidentally broke it
[09:41] <plovs_work> shaunm, so we could write our docs in xml, convert it to html and then show it with yelp?
[09:41] <shaunm> but it's fixed now
[09:42] <shaunm> yes
[09:42] <shaunm> you won't get the fancy sidebar or some other niceties, but they'll display
[09:42] <plovs_work> shaunm, can I make a sidebar with css or tables?
[09:42] <shaunm> well
[09:43] <shaunm> you can put whatever you want into your html, within reason
[09:43] <shaunm> the sidebar in yelp, though, is seperate from the page
[09:43] <shaunm> there's really no way to get one of those for html files
[09:43] <plovs_work> :-) within reason sounds nice ...
[09:43] <shaunm> at the moment
[09:43] <shaunm> well
[09:44] <shaunm> "within reason": frames are known not to work, and I make no guarantees about javascript
[09:44] <shaunm> it's a help program, not a web browser
[09:44] <froud> shaunm, xml > nwalsh htmlhelp > yelp
[09:45] <froud> Jirka would love that :-)
[09:46] <shaunm> big fan of htmlhelp?
[09:46] <froud> shaunm, the problem is that yelp is young
[09:46] <froud> but not enough coders to work on it
[09:46] <shaunm> well, it's really quite old
[09:47] <shaunm> I mean, except for the fact that the current yelp has almost nothing to do with the old yelp
[09:47] <froud> we writers may have all the dreams, but we need coders
[09:47] <shaunm> and I'm pretty much the only regular yelp developer
[09:47] <froud> old yelp is dead
[09:47] <froud> the way forward is with the new yelp
[09:47] <shaunm> Yelp is dead!  Long live Yelp!
[09:47] <plovs_work> shaunm, i like the one in hoary, it is a lot nicer then the one in warty, better graphics, stuff lines up etc
[09:47] <froud> :-)
[09:47] <shaunm> which one is in hoary?
[09:48] <plovs_work> 2.9.2?
[09:48] <shaunm> 2.9?
[09:48] <froud> 2.9.?
[09:48] <plovs_work> i use warty here
[09:48] <froud> may be 10
[09:48] <shaunm> yeah, I'm mostly pleased with the new formatting
[09:48] <plovs_work> just a sec
[09:48] <shaunm> using gecko has helped a lot
[09:49] <shaunm> I envy ubuntu
[09:49] <froud> gecko - a small lizard that loses it tail when it gets a fright
[09:49] <froud> so join us :-)
[09:49] <shaunm> you guys have such an active and eager docs community
[09:49] <shaunm> the gnome docs community kind of died, for various reasons
[09:49] <froud> really that's why the docs are empty
[09:49] <shaunm> and I've been trying to pull it back together
[09:49] <plovs_work> shaunm, and it's not close to as active as we would like
[09:50] <froud> point is its new and we can do what we like
[09:50] <plovs_work> shaunm, but if you join us, we need to work on gnome docs as well :-)
[09:50] <shaunm> the fedora docs community seemed to explode with interest at first
[09:50] <froud> shaunm, documentation is a go-to-market strategy
[09:50] <plovs_work> the plus of ubuntu is that the docs-team is part of the developers group, more or less, we went to mataro as well for example
[09:50] <froud> make a business case for writers and it will work
[09:51] <shaunm> but then it turned out to be a bunch of geeks writing stuff like "Bastardizing your fedora system to behave like gentoo for your uber-leet pr0n server"
[09:51] <plovs_work> shaunm, we're a little older then that :-)
[09:52] <shaunm> as well she should
[09:52] <shaunm> ximian/novell set up a couple
[09:52] <shaunm> in their "gnome" bounties
[09:52] <shaunm> god did that ever piss me off
[09:52] <froud> yes, :-)
[09:53] <froud> I work on SuSE
[09:53] <shaunm> they were all evolution-related, and hardly my top priority for the gnome docs team
[09:53] <froud> mostly with Novell South Africa
[09:53] <shaunm> but they were presented as if they were what the community wanted
[09:53] <shaunm> I mean, if Novell wants to put up money for stuff like that, that's cool.  I'm all for it.  But don't make it sound like it's coming from me.
[09:54] <froud> no that was not right
[09:54] <froud> did you speak to them
[09:54] <froud> they are a good bunch to work wit
[09:54] <froud> if not speak to Nat
[09:55] <plovs_work> froud, there *are* documentation bounties
[09:55] <froud> plovs_work, where?
[09:56] <plovs_work> 50/50 up front and i'll tell ya!
[09:56] <plovs_work> ok, ok, let me find it...
[09:56] <froud> on ubuntu?
[09:56] <plovs_work> yes
[09:56] <froud> share :-)
[09:57] <froud> they are not here http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/bounties
[09:58] <froud> shaunm, so you with us?
[09:58] <froud> great good to have you onboard
[09:58] <froud> :-)
[09:58] <froud> now we need to get you a commiter access
[09:58] <froud> :-)
[09:58] <froud> anyting else you need?/
[09:58] <plovs_work> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryGoals
[09:59] <plovs_work> hmm, no there was one more page
[10:00] <froud> plovs_work, I looked high and low on ubuntu, there are none
[10:00] <plovs_work> there used to be though
[10:01] <shaunm> froud: I did raise my objections, as did others.  Nat said it would be addressed, and it wasn't.
[10:01] <froud> plovs_work, Nah! not in my time
[10:01] <froud> shaunm, that figures
[10:01] <shaunm> well, so far, I've gotten on bad terms with Red Hat's documentation team, Novell's documentation team, and Sun's documentation team.
[10:02] <shaunm> *especially* Sun's documentation team
[10:02] <froud> yes, I felt the sun one :-)
[10:03] <froud> all three have their problems
[10:03] <froud> I manage to work well with them,      but dont stick it out to far
[10:04] <froud> I may lose a limb:-)
[10:04] <froud> OK, I am back to work. I would like to see how we get traction on this discussion and how we get confirmation from shaunm to join us.:-)
[10:04] <shaunm> I can't commit to any distro, really.  I have my hands full with gnome.
[10:05] <froud> even if it achieves GNOME goals?
[10:07] <shaunm> are you guys going to work on gnome docs?
[10:07] <froud> if we have GNOME vendor drop, which I am testing
[10:07] <froud> we will push back to GNOME
[10:07] <froud> and some of us may, join GNOME DOCssssss
[10:08] <shaunm> right now, I'm both the yelp maintainer and the chief tech writer for gnome
[10:08] <shaunm> which is more than I can handle
[10:08] <froud> if we see that the app has no docs and will be in ubuntu
[10:09] <froud> shaunm, I am chief technical writer on comercial projects and a number of OSS ones. It's all to much sigh, sob, sob.
[10:09] <froud> OK, well let's stay in contact
[10:09] <froud> you on the ubuntu docs list?
[10:10] <plovs_work> froud, why don't you make a write-up of what we miss in yelp, what would make our life easier?
[10:10] <froud> plovs, I can
[10:10] <plovs_work> shaunm, fell free to drop by as often as you want, you'll notice we're the nicest doc-team in town :-)
[10:10] <froud> perhaps documentthe grand vision we have set before ourselves today :-)
[10:11] <plovs_work> froud, :-)
[10:11] <froud> plovs_work, but would it help. I mean we need traction.
[10:11] <froud> I am trying to test evndor drops
[10:11] <froud> vendor drops
[10:12] <froud> well trying to do it in a way that makes it easy for us
[10:12] <froud> My poor hardisk is loaded 
[10:13] <froud> shaunm, I need a way to checkout just the docs
[10:13] <froud> doing checkout of apps + docs is toooooooo much
[10:13] <shaunm> bah svn
[10:14] <froud> careful I am having an affair with SVN at the moment. She is very nice to me
[10:14] <plovs_work> shaunm, ok, now you've done it, now you've gotten on bad terms with Red Hat's documentation team, Novell's documentation team, and Sun's documentation team *and* the Ubuntu doc-team
[10:14] <shaunm> well, so there's no single command you can do to get all the docs
[10:14] <froud> OK lets have a baz war
[10:14] <shaunm> but the location of each doc is given on http://live.gnome.org/DocumentationProject/DocTable2.10
[10:15] <shaunm> plovs_work: yeah, I'm good at that
[10:15] <shaunm> *most* of the application docs are <module>/help
[10:15] <shaunm> but not all
[10:15] <shaunm> if I had my way, all user documentation would always use <module>/help/<docname>
[10:16] <shaunm> oh, I have something for you then
[10:16] <shaunm> if I still have it
[10:19] <froud> plovs_work, do svn up and take a peek at the XSL I hacked to create the DocOwner/Maintainer Status Reports
[10:19] <shaunm> hmm, the listing is out of date
[10:20] <froud> plovs_work, test it on adminguide/adminguide.xml
[10:20] <froud> shaunm, that's why I am starting to automate the ubuntu one
[10:20] <froud> plovs, we need to run it on each doc
[10:21] <froud> next step is to create the make file to do so
[10:22] <froud> then enrico and mako can cron it and upload to some place that we can link to from Wiki [http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStatus] 
[10:22] <shaunm> well, anyway
[10:22] <shaunm> http://www.gnome.org/~shaunm/doctable/
[10:22] <shaunm> grab doaproll.rdf and cvsup
[10:22] <shaunm> the listing isn't perfectly up to date, but it's most of everything
[10:23] <froud> cool that will help
[10:23] <froud> thanks
[10:23] <shaunm> oh, actually
[10:23] <froud> you just saved me hours
[10:23] <shaunm> that checks out everything
[10:23] <shaunm> at any rate, doaproll.rdf is machine-readable, so you should be able to do whatever you want with it
[10:23] <shaunm> oh!
[10:23] <shaunm> and you'll have to install xml starlet to run that script
[10:24] <shaunm> which you should install anyway.  it's a godsend
[10:24] <froud> send xml starlet url so I can learn more
[10:25] <froud> got it
[10:25] <shaunm> it's the grep, sed, and awk of xml
[10:25] <froud> hoooo ha, the docteam r gonna luv this
[10:25] <froud> that's a gem
[10:26] <froud> enrico, I see another wiki page comming
[10:26] <shaunm> I'm listed on the developers page, but I've never submitted a single line of code. :/
[10:26] <froud> somebody loves you afterall :-)
[10:26] <enrico> froud: hey!
[10:26] <enrico> froud, shaum: have you been talking since I got out?
[10:26] <froud> enrico, do svn up and take a look in housekeep at the xsl
[10:26] <shaunm> well, so I had been developing a similar tool and using it for my own stuff
[10:26] <froud> yes
[10:27] <shaunm> and I'd meant to package it up for others to use
[10:27] <froud> and so where is it
[10:27] <froud> give it to us!
[10:27] <shaunm> then this posted to the libxml2 list announcing xml starlet, and he was already much farther along than I was
[10:27] <enrico> froud: COOL!  The autostatus thing!
[10:28] <froud> enrico, the basic xsl yes
[10:28] <shaunm> so I threw my code away and wholly endorsed his
[10:28] <froud> now need script to make the files uplaod ready
[10:28] <shaunm> oh, actually, looks like Mikhail has removed me from the developer list
[10:28] <froud> shaunm, fair enough
[10:28] <shaunm> yeah
[10:29] <froud> enrico, you can test it on adminguide
[10:29] <enrico> cool cool cool
[10:29] <froud> it makes a docbook article type
[10:29] <froud> you can read it in yelp
[10:30] <froud> and can be transformed using nwalsh stylesheets to HTML
[10:30] <enrico> did you make a make target for it?
[10:30] <froud> that's next
[10:30] <froud> do you think it should be in the main makefile
[10:30] <froud> or have its own
[10:32] <enrico> I'd say main makefile.  Like a make status that creates a status article in build/ involving status from all documents
[10:33] <froud> enrico, ok, now you just need to get the authors to insert authorblurbs on items
[10:33] <froud> then we need a script to remove them prior to version release
[10:33] <plovs_work> froud, how does it work?
[10:34] <enrico> froud: me and you do it.  If plovs does it as well, then it's 100% of the committers at the moment :)
[10:34] <enrico> plovs_work: this is an easy and cool one: 
[10:35] <froud> plovs_work,  xsltproc userguide/test.xml userguide/usersguide.xml
[10:35] <froud> then transform that to html
[10:35] <enrico> plovs_work: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamWork  (see "Marking what you do")
[10:35] <froud> plovs_work,  xsltproc userguide/test.html userguide/test.xml
[10:35] <enrico> plovs_work: you do that, and Sean's autocoolthing will generate a cool status page
[10:36] <enrico> plovs_work: minimum effort, maximum win
[10:36] <froud> enrico, its rough and basic but does the job. We can always improve
[10:37] <enrico> froud: I like it because it's simple and quite convenient to use
[10:37] <froud> yikes I must get back to work, production deadlines today. Gotta go to the printer and arts guy etc.
[10:37] <enrico> froud: wow!  Good work!
[10:38] <froud> shaunm, that's will be in touch. r u on the mailing list
[10:38] <enrico> plovs_work: did you see how it works?
[10:39] <plovs_work> just trying, work is hectic today
[10:40] <froud> plovs_work,  dont forget you need to pass the stylesheet in the transform process
[10:41] <plovs_work> installing xsltproc again (clean hoary install)
[10:42] <froud> plovs_work, then cd housekeep
[10:42] <froud> do
[10:42] <froud> xsltproc -o test.xml writeOwnerStatus.xsl ../adminguide/adminguide.xml
[10:43] <froud> then do yelp test.xml
[10:45] <plovs_work> COOL!
[10:45] <froud> on the mainboard or between the keyboard and the seat?
[10:45] <plovs_work> between the keyboard and the seat is outdated, no more upgrades available
[10:46] <froud> :-)
[10:46] <froud> ok, so this needs to be run on each doc in the projects list
[10:46] <plovs_work> running quickguide
[10:46] <froud> I will out to base.dir build/status
[10:47] <froud> so plovs_work you just add authorblurbs to what you will be doing
[10:47] <froud> I'll take care of the make for this
[10:47] <froud> enrico, will take care of cronjob and upload
[10:47] <enrico> I will
[10:48] <froud> Next lady for a shave ?
[10:48] <enrico> We can decide that everything in build/ will end up in http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~mako/docteam/ and whatever the alias is going to be
[10:49] <froud> ok, goo
[10:49] <froud> good
[10:49] <froud> so you want to use make dist and give tar.gz
[10:49] <froud> to mako
[10:50] <froud> make dist outs to ubuntu-docs/
[10:50] <froud> I suggest we run make all
[10:50] <froud> and make status
[10:51] <froud> both out to build/
[10:51] <mako> enrico, froud: hey there
[10:51] <froud> mako, speak of the devel
[10:51] <froud> devil
[10:51] <froud> :-)
[10:51] <mako> devel too :)
[10:52] <froud> mako, svn up
[10:52] <froud> check xsl in housekeep
[10:52] <froud> creates owner/status list
[10:52] <froud> as db xml article
[10:52] <mako> i'll check it out first thing tomorrow
[10:52] <mako> i took today off
[10:52] <froud> no time for sleep now dude
[10:52] <mako> (mostly)
[10:52] <enrico> mako: and read my mail :)
[10:52] <froud> we're on a role
[10:52] <mako> awesome
[10:53] <mako> enrico: i'm downloading mail right now
[10:53] <froud> Ok and while you are at it we need coffee. Black two sugars fro me. thanks
[10:53] <enrico> simple proposal: if xltproc and all the rest are installed on people, you can cron the build and upload
[10:53] <enrico> to avoid us feeding you binary code, you make a snapshot of a makefile, and you copy it back after a svn update
[10:53] <enrico> s/binary/arbitrary/
[10:54] <enrico> this is it.  That'd be very simple for everyone
[10:54] <mako> enrico: are you guys distributing the xslt though?
[10:54] <mako> that's the problem
[10:54] <enrico> You mean the docbook xslt?
[10:54] <mako> i've actually filed patches that fix security bugs in the debian *default* xslt db stylesheets
[10:54] <mako> (the slide stylesheets granted, but still)
[10:55] <mako> they were automatically downloadin, including and processing xslt from the web
[10:55] <enrico> We distribute at least the xslt to create the stats
[10:55] <mako> xslt is a full language
[10:55] <mako> it's not just a matter of the makefile
[10:55] <enrico> I see.  Too bad.
[10:55] <mako> i mean, i'm happy to do it
[10:56] <mako> but i think we should ask elmo/'thom first
[10:56] <mako> they've been very very conservative in the past
[10:56] <mako> they've said no to me in the past a few times.. so i'm a little skepitical
[10:56] <mako> they talk about setting up some uml or chroot syste.. which would be perfect
[10:56] <mako> but it's not around....
[10:57] <enrico> well, we can always cron the download and extract of a tarball I generate
[10:57] <mako> yes, absolutely
[10:57] <mako> i was thinking about maybe building on a machine of my own even
[10:57] <enrico> mako: about Elmo, it's 2 days I chase him for the svn migration thing
[10:57] <mako> or even better(!)
[10:57] <enrico> he told me he'd get back to me on tuesday, eh
[10:57] <mako> no wait.. hmm
[10:58] <mako> he sends me messages like "mako!" and then doesn't reply for a day too
[10:58] <mako> simple admin things are very easy to fix
[10:58] <mako> usually super quick turnaround
[10:58] <mako> but "set up this new thing or make this decision about a new piece of software" are always kind of lower on the list it seems
[10:59] <mako> and i understand why this is, but it's quite annoying sometimes
[10:59] <froud> dudes, just move svn. forget the baz etc
[10:59] <froud> mako give me ssh access
[10:59] <froud> done by tonight :-)
[10:59] <mako> froud: nobody without a contract gets ssh access *period* inside the protected network
[11:00] <mako> :-/
[11:01] <mako> enrico: i'm gonna read your email and then go to sleep :)
[11:01] <enrico> mako: ok.  Good night!
[11:01] <froud> me off 2. serious thi stime. read it in logs or better on the list
[11:01] <froud> chow
[11:06] <mako> plovs_work: hey there! :)
[11:06] <plovs_work> hi!
[11:06] <mako> plovs_work: well. i'm off too but we can talk again soon
[11:07] <plovs_work> ok :-)
[11:13] <enrico> just change sources.list and go?
[11:58] <plovs_work> enrico, dist-upgrade and lots of patience
[01:21] <jiyuu0> enrico, some girls registering http://www.livejournal.com/users/jiyuu0/22951.html
[01:22] <jiyuu0> today's recruitment... 35/80 girls
[03:04] <enrico> jiyuu0: still quite a high average
[03:10] <enrico> jiyuu0: it is to be seen how to go from that high average to have women hackers
[06:38] <froud> African greetings
[06:39] <froud> tester wanted
[06:39] <froud> anyone up 
[06:44] <Kinnison> tester?
[06:44] <Kinnison> what for?
[06:45] <froud> make status
[06:45] <froud> do svn up
[06:45] <froud> in trunk runmake status
[06:45] <froud> see if it builds the status pages in build/status
[06:45] <froud> build/status/
[06:45] <Kinnison> svn url?
[06:46] <froud> the docs url
[06:46] <Kinnison> which is?
[06:46] <froud> http://69.155.172.150/faq
[06:47] <Kinnison> what do i need to install to test?
[06:48] <Kinnison> well, I apparently have xsltproc already so that's a start
[06:48] <froud> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ForTheHasty
[06:48] <Kinnison> it is sitting resolving stuff over and over
[06:48] <Kinnison> and connecting to 209.222.168.105
[06:49] <froud> you dont have everything installed
[06:49] <froud> and catalog is not working
[06:50] <froud> do you have the other parts installed
[06:51] <Kinnison> that is right isn't it?
[06:51] <Kinnison> I have xsltproc
[06:51] <Kinnison> what else do I need?
[06:51] <Kinnison> that page wasn't very helpful
[06:51] <froud> you need the dtd and xsl from docbook
[06:51] <Kinnison> I have docbook-xsl installed
[06:51] <froud> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamWork
[06:52] <Kinnison> That still doesn't say exactly what packages I have to install
[06:52] <Kinnison> for a doc team; this is very poorly documented
[06:52] <froud> For the hasty say it all, but you need the DTD and XSL
[06:53] <froud> xsltproc should look for your catalof default in etc/xml/
[06:53] <froud> Kinnison, xsltproc, docbook dtd and xsl
[06:53] <froud> you most likely have GNU Make right?
[06:54] <Kinnison> E: Couldn't find package dtd
[06:54] <froud> I will say ONCE MORE install the Docbook DTD
[06:54] <Kinnison> if you can't tell me the package name then what am I supposed to do? guess?
[06:54] <froud> Kinnison, r u working on docs?
[06:54] <Kinnison> No
[06:55] <froud> Ok will I dont know what they cal the package for Docbook on Ubuntu
[06:56] <Kinnison> Oh
[06:56] <froud> well its basic to doc people
[06:56] <froud> but perhaps we should doc the install in wiki
[06:57] <froud> use pin
[06:57] <froud> pin docbook
[06:57] <Kinnison> -bash: pin: command not found
[06:57] <Kinnison> http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.3/dbnotnx.mod appears to be one of the things I'm lacking
[06:57] <froud> Hmmm, what a pitty now theres a gem tool
[06:58] <froud> then there is something wrong with the docbook DTD isstall on your machine
[06:58] <froud> if no local docbook is found then it will default to the network
[06:59] <froud> if your connection is slow it may result in problems
[06:59] <Kinnison> well considering I've never done anything for it so far I assume I'm simply missing some package or something
[06:59] <froud> search for it in aptitude
[07:01] <froud> Heh heh, nothing beats good old YaST
[07:02] <Kinnison> well apparently I have dbnotnx.mod version 4.3 installed
[07:02] <Kinnison> but it's not working
[07:02] <Kinnison> do I need some kind of catalogue tool?
[07:03] <froud> there should be a catalog in etc/xml/
[07:03] <froud> your xsltproc should default to that
[07:04] <Kinnison> it finds /usr/share/xml/docbook/schema/dtd/4.3/catalog.xml
[07:04] <froud> if its not wacked in the distro, it should Just Work
[07:04] <Kinnison> and then it tries to stat() random http urls
[07:04] <froud> that will do
[07:04] <Kinnison> which is really freaky
[07:05] <froud> Hmm the catalog should be using rewriteURI
[07:05] <froud> something is really wrong. you on Hoary?
[07:06] <Kinnison> warty
[07:06] <froud> Hmm we know it to work on warty
[07:06] <Kinnison> I must simply be missing some critical package I can't work out
[07:07] <froud> hold to get you the package
[07:09] <froud> http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.3/
[07:09] <froud> should be able to get want you need there
[07:09] <Kinnison> I have all the files on disk
[07:09] <froud> so what does it say is missing
[07:10] <Kinnison> it doesn't say anything is missing
[07:10] <Kinnison> it just goes to the 'net instead of reading off disc
[07:10] <Kinnison> can I tell xsltproc not to do that?
[07:10] <froud> ok set -nonet
[07:10] <Kinnison> I'll try that and see what it says
[07:11] <Kinnison> I/O error : Attempt to load network entity http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.3/docbookx.dtd
[07:11] <Kinnison> quickguide/quickguide.xml:8: warning: failed to load external entity "http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.3/docbookx.dtd"
[07:11] <Kinnison> ] >
[07:11] <Kinnison>   ^
[07:12] <froud> aftr -nonet
[07:12] <Kinnison> without --nonet it works (slowly as it goes to the net)
[07:12] <froud> ok let it run the problem is your catlogs are not working
[07:13] <froud> let me find that piece you can export to the env
[07:13] <Kinnison> it doesn't honour http_proxy which doesn't help
[07:14] <froud> export XML_CATALOG_FILES to your env with the value /usr/share/xml/docbook/schema/dtd/4.3/catalog.xml
[07:15] <Kinnison> seems faster
[07:15] <froud> Something is strange on Ubuntu's setup of libxml2
[07:15] <Kinnison> okay; that runs to completion
[07:16] <Kinnison> with no errors
[07:16] <Kinnison> (make status)
[07:16] <froud> ok cd build/status
[07:16] <froud> you should have xml and html files
[07:16] <Kinnison> dsilvers@petitemort:~/dev-svn/ubuntu-doc/trunk/build/status$ ls
[07:16] <Kinnison> faq-report.html  qg-report.html  rn-report.html  ug-report.html
[07:16] <Kinnison> faq-report.xml   qg-report.xml   rn-report.xml   ug-report.xml
[07:16] <Kinnison> that's the lot
[07:16] <froud> good
[07:16] <froud> ok so it works
[07:17] <Kinnison> so something is wrong with the catalog on my system but that's not the docteam's problem
[07:17] <froud> its the basis for doing automated status reporting on the doc projects
[07:17] <froud> very thanks for your patience :-)
[07:17] <Kinnison> no probs
[07:18] <froud> l8tr
[07:18] <Kinnison> cya
[10:59] <kbrooks> Hey.
[10:59] <kbrooks> brb.