[12:03] <Riddell> what is the name of the new user friendly application install tool in hoary?
[12:04] <HrdwrBoB> gnome-app-install
[12:04] <Riddell> is it an ubuntu made project?
[12:05] <HrdwrBoB> I beleive so
[12:07] <Riddell> "ImportError: No module named glade" looks like it's missing a dependency there, time to dig up my bugzilla account
[12:07] <jdub> mdz: haha, yeah.
[12:08] <jdub> mdz: i think that means bignose on the cover.
[12:12] <Riddell> "gobject.GError: Icon 'gnome-settings-default-applications' not present in theme" can anyone tell me what package that icon is in?
[12:13] <mjg59> jdub: I found a nice picture of the inside of Cockfosters station
[12:14] <jdub> mjg59: NOOOOOO!
[12:14] <jdub> Riddell: gnome-icon-theme and gnome-accessibility-themes
[12:15] <mjg59> jdub: http://www.charlesholden.com/html/charlesholden_gallery_pages/Cockfosters_1.htm
[12:15] <mjg59> Dig the funky concrete roof
[12:16] <mjg59> Hahaha
[12:17] <mjg59> jdub: If I want to do LCA and the Canonical conference and congratulate you on being a married man, what dates do I need to be in Australia?
[12:18] <HrdwrBoB> LCA is at the most inconvenient time ever
[12:19] <HrdwrBoB> March 23; contract expires. April 18-23 LCA, April 30th my wedding
[12:19] <jdub> mjg59: wedding party is on the 17th, linux.conf.au is 18th-23rd, UbuntuDownUnder will be 25th to 30th.
[12:19] <mjg59> Rock
[12:19] <jdub> HrdwrBoB: haha :)
[12:19] <jdub> HrdwrBoB: our honeymoon is lca ;)
[12:19] <jdub> (not!)
[12:19] <mjg59> jdub: Party in Sydney?
[12:20] <HrdwrBoB> haha :)
[12:20] <jdub> yass (outsiude of canberra)
[12:20] <kent> what is LCA?
[12:21] <HrdwrBoB> linux.conf.au
[12:21] <mjg59> Heh. I guess I'll probably be flying in and out of Sydney
[12:21] <HrdwrBoB> linux conference in canberra Monday April 18 to Saturday April 23, 2005.
[12:23] <thom> UDU is sydney, right?
[12:25] <jdub> yeah
[12:25] <mjg59> Yeah
[12:25] <jdub> most likely
[12:26] <mjg59> It's neat that Ubuntu pretty much just works on the Mac Mini
[12:26] <jdub> mjg59: oh?
[12:26] <mjg59> jdub: According to -usres
[12:26] <mjg59> Someone should write a Wiki page on it and then SELL SELL SELL
[12:27] <mjg59> Hmm. I can get one for 300 quid with educational discount.
[12:28] <jdub> that's fantastic news!
[12:28] <jdub> "48 hours after receiving my Mini I have decided it is not the machine for me. If you would like to purchase my Mini, it is on eBay."
[12:28] <jdub> weird
[12:28] <thom> are the hoary livecds rsyncable now?
[12:29] <thom> jdub: 48 hours seems very short
[12:29] <HrdwrBoB> I'd get a mini if it had a useful 3d card
[12:29] <mdz> mjg59: how do you go about getting the discount?
[12:29] <mdz> thom: yes, they are
[12:29] <mjg59> mdz: I sign a solemn pledge that I'm a student at a university on the Apple discount program
[12:29] <HrdwrBoB> mdz: find a friend/family member who is working for/going to an educational institution and get them to buy it
[12:30] <mjg59> But I can do that online and then order online as well
[12:30] <jdub> thom: yeah, they are
[12:30] <mdz> mjg59: oh, ok.  you don't have to promise that you're a swell guy, or anything like that?
[12:30] <jdub> mdz: dude
[12:30] <jdub> mdz: so how much policy for the rest of the image is defined in the d-i stage?
[12:31] <jdub> mdz: much more than the kernel?
[12:31] <mdz> jdub: meaning what?
[12:31] <jdub> mdz: i'm wondering about using the POWER OF CASPER for booting other system images, such as red hat.
[12:31] <mdz> jdub: I wrote it with such use cases in mind
[12:31] <jdub> obviously the kernel would be an issue, but beyond that, everything else pretty much restarts, right?
[12:32] <mdz> all the stuff that I've added falls back gracefully if things aren't the way it expects
[12:32] <mdz> the bits that come directly from d-i probably need tweaks in that area
[12:32] <mdz> e.g., locale configuration and network configuration
[12:32] <mjg59> mdz: Haha. Nope.
[12:32] <mdz> jdub: the only issue with the kernel is that the modules in the image need to be loadable by the kernel on the CD
[12:33] <mdz> and we could make that a non-issue if we really wanted to
[12:33] <mdz> just costs some space on the CD
[12:33] <mdz> jdub: you should be able to build a live CD with isolinux menu options for Ubuntu, Debian, Fedora, Gentoo, etc. with a small amount of work
[12:33] <jdub> heh -> two kernel monte with a livecd ;)
[12:33] <mdz> s/CD/DVD/
[12:34] <thom> mdz: ok, grabbing all the live cds now; will hopefully be in a position to test i386,ia64,amd64 by morning
[12:34] <mdz> thom: excellent
[12:34] <thom> it's nice having a desk again ;-)
[12:35] <thom> now i just have to work out why grub can't see my sata disks, and i'm laughing
[12:36] <mjg59> 305.50 including delivery
[12:36] <mjg59> I wonder what kind of PM setup it has. Presumbly something very iBookish.
[12:36] <thom> mjg59: yeah, all macs should expose PMU to some degree
[12:38] <mjg59> I need some Mac hardware for PM testing
[12:38] <sivang> thom: what chipset? I have also SATA , wonder if they'd work - ICH5 I think I have..
[12:39] <thom> sivang: can't remember; it's onboard the motherboard i have. i suspect the disks have just come disconnected in the process of moving
[12:39] <mdz> how very IBM
[12:39] <sivang> thom: it's a desktop right?
[12:39] <thom> sivang: yeah
[12:40] <sivang> thom: well, just opend up the cover and check the cables then
[12:41] <thom> sivang: oddly, i just checked windows and disk manager can see the drives
[12:42] <mjg59> Does anyone have the faintest idea what http://groups-beta.google.com/group/uk.comp.os.linux/msg/ab1c6387c8463151?dmode=source is going on about?
[12:43] <tseng> full threaded smp support?
[12:43] <tseng> userspace support for smp, heh
[12:43] <tseng> mjg59: I think its possible that he has a really poor understanding of NPTL/TLS
[12:44] <HrdwrBoB> just another gentoo crazed person
[12:44] <jdub> oh man
[12:44] <jdub> "Ubuntu is worth the install just for the little drum beat that greets you at the login.
[12:45] <jdub> "
[12:45] <jdub> ^ murray cumming
[12:45] <tseng> i smiled at that too, jdub 
[12:45] <tseng> i was thinking about his point on su being unintuative
[12:45] <jdub> "I mean, if I do su then it shouldn't just ask me for a password when there's no possible correct answer."
[12:45] <jdub> ^ good point
[12:45] <jdub> haha, yeah
[12:45] <tseng> that perhaps it could give some more useful info and point to an FAQ
[12:46] <tseng> on failure.
[12:46] <mjg59> Hmm. That's a claim I hadn't heard before - Miguel wanted to take up a job with MS, but ran into INS-related problems.
[12:47] <mjg59> Perhaps unsurprisingly, I can't find any independent corroboration.
[12:47] <thom> i'd heard that before
[12:47] <mjg59> Oh, no, there's an Andrew Orlowski article on The Register which says that
[12:48] <jdub> hah, orlowski.
[12:48] <jdub> 10:46 < mjg59> Hmm. That's a claim I hadn't heard before - Miguel wanted to
[12:48] <jdub>                take up a job with MS, but ran into INS-related problems.
[12:48] <jdub> 10:47 < mjg59> Perhaps unsurprisingly, I can't find any independent
[12:48] <jdub>                corroboration.
[12:48] <jdub> boh
[12:48] <mjg59> You suck
[12:48] <jdub> oh, putty is *SO* ANNOYING
[12:48] <HrdwrBoB> now I've heard the claim twice
[12:49] <mjg59> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/02/05/explain_yourself_miguel_demands_rms/
[12:49] <mjg59> I  RMS
[12:49] <jdub> so /bin/su could do the same thing that sulogin does; checks whether the root password is not set
[12:49] <mjg59> What should it do in response?
[12:49] <thom> and then tells you to use sudo?
[12:50] <thom> but only if it's not being run from sudo, as in sudo su -
[12:50] <jdub> well, then it's already root
[12:51] <jdub> surely this is something upstream would take?
[12:51] <jdub> su is pointless if run as a user with no root password set
[12:52] <jdub> it should return some error - could that error be external to the binary?
[12:52] <jdub> or perhaps configured at build time would make sense
[12:52] <thom> jdub: su - www-data -c foo still has to work, fe
[12:53] <jdub> then you're not su-ing to root ;)
[12:53] <thom> no, but you just said: "su is pointless if run as a user with no root password set"
[12:53] <jdub> well, it could check whether the target account, whatever it may be, has a password set
[12:53] <thom> :P
[12:54] <thom> yeah
[12:54] <mjg59> jdub: Telling someone that there's no root password set is information leakage
[12:54] <jdub> we are talking about the su-to-root use case here ;)
[12:54] <mjg59> On the desktop, I don't think it matters. But I don't seem upstream taking it.
[12:54] <jdub> mmm, and it couldn't just fail, hey?
[12:54] <jdub> same problem
[12:54] <thom> it's not something you'd want on a server, for sure
[12:55] <jdub> hmm.
[12:55] <mjg59> If it's an administrative decision not to have a root password, random users shouldn't be able to find that out
[12:56] <mdz> jdub: su: you don't even have a chance! (exit 1)
[01:10] <robertj> mjg59: i saw that page you pointed to, I think RMS needs to realize that Free software cannot exist in compliance with patent law
[01:11] <mjg59> robertj: Which one?
[01:11] <robertj> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/02/05/explain_yourself_miguel_demands_rms/
[01:11] <mjg59> Oh, right.
[01:11] <robertj> mono & gnome
[01:11] <mjg59> RMS doesn't seem to have strong opinions on patents yet
[01:11] <mjg59> Or, rather, the correct way of dealing with patents and free software
[01:13] <kent> godnight.
[01:42] <ajmitch> hi jordi 
[01:49] <pitti> night, guys!
[02:01] <robertj> Does anyone else find the Desktop Label for the System menu confusing?
[02:02] <sivang> robertj: hmmm, should be "System" ? ;-)
[02:02] <robertj> I mean, most of that stuff isn't on my Desktop
[02:02] <robertj> and what does your desktop have to do with rebooting?
[02:03] <sivang> hehe
[02:03] <sivang> Should be syste, but I don't want to start the gnome menus fights again...
[02:03] <sivang> ;-)
[02:04] <sivang> Desktop maybe should be "places"?
[02:04] <robertj> Is that a Gnome thing or an Ubuntu thing
[02:05] <robertj> I know upstream talks were going on but..
[02:05] <jdz_> sivang: There's already one called "places"
[02:05] <robertj> Computer or System is a much better name
[02:05] <sivang> jdz_: eh right, oops ;-)
[02:05] <jdub> robertj: current layout is both ubuntu and upstream.
[02:06] <robertj> it just doesn't seem intuitive
[02:06] <robertj> why  was System nixed?
[02:06] <tseng> robertj: if you think about it, to alot of people Computer = Desktop
[02:06] <tseng> no?
[02:06] <jdz_> tseng: or laptop, as is my case
[02:06] <jdub> robertj: there's a discussion bug on gnome's bugzilla about this
[02:06] <robertj> tseng: yeah, but to a lot of people Desktop = Desktop
[02:06] <tseng> and what does Computer mean anymore than Desktop does in the context of the stuff in the menu
[02:07] <tseng> About Gnome?
[02:07] <jdz_> I propose we call it "Stuff"
[02:07] <robertj> That's better than Desktop
[02:07] <tseng> i propose that the name is mildly important
[02:07] <robertj> at least Stuff makes you think "here is some various stuff"
[02:07] <robertj> vs. "Here is what is on my desktop"
[02:07] <tseng> robertj: about gnome = version info about my "desktop"
[02:07] <ajmitch> jdz_: you might as well call applications 'stuff', and desktop 'more stuff'
[02:08] <tseng> screenshot is a sshot of my "desktop"
[02:08] <jdz_> ajmitch: very well :)
[02:08] <HrdwrBoB> ajmitch: that sounds like my naming scheme
[02:08] <ajmitch> it's generally how I'd organise things anyway :)
[02:17] <robertj> should dragging a file to a launcher pointing to a folder move the file?
[02:17] <HrdwrBoB> move/copy yes
[02:19] <robertj> "the Gnome Desktop" is different
[02:19] <robertj> but by that logic Gnome would be a better name
[02:32] <ajmitch> looks like I need more packages from sid again..
[02:33] <bob2> which ones?
[02:33] <ajmitch> selinux stuff that I'm working on
[02:34] <ajmitch> thankfully rjc said he'd write some debian policy for udev, so I'll be able to boot my system properly :)
[03:08] <robertj> is it at all possible for usb to be brought online before fsck's run?
[03:14] <sivang> daniels: ping
[03:17] <daniels> pong
[03:17] <jdub> hmm
[03:18] <sivang> daniels: do you remember the module name you told must be in my xorg.conf file for the opensource nv driver to work with higher resolutions then 640x480 ?
[03:18] <sivang> (trying to use standby, must use nv driver)
[03:19] <jdub> hrm
[03:19] <jdub> so /dev/hdc isn't created before hdparm is run at rcS.d/S07
[03:19] <ajmitch> jdub hmm?
[03:19] <ajmitch> udev should be running at S04, right?
[03:19] <jdub> it does indeed
[03:20] <jdub> but probably takes its sweet time
[03:21] <jdub> hrm
[03:21] <jdub> who can i assign an hdparm issue to...
[03:21] <daniels> sivang: er, you just need HorizSync and VertRefresh lines for nv
[03:22] <ajmitch> does udev run in the background while creating the device nodes?
[03:22] <ajmitch> or does everything still block on it?
[03:26] <jdub> init.d/udev runs udevstart
[03:26] <jdub> so nothing really blocks on it
[03:26] <jdub> (it was hotplug that was the big blocker)
[03:26] <ajmitch> yeah, udevstart being a symlink
[03:26] <ajmitch> I've been having some problems with it in the last couple of days when an selinux policy has been loaded by init
[03:26] <ajmitch> trying to get it sorted :)
[03:28] <ajmitch> so I doubt that it'll make feature freeze
[03:33] <robertj> jdub: is there a way to determine if a ps/2 keyboard is connected?
[03:35] <jdub> no idea
[03:35] <robertj> jdub: because back to the fsck issue, not only is it annoying to laptop/home users, its also really annoying to people running servers on macs
[03:36] <jdub> which fsck issue?
[03:36] <robertj> running before usb comes online
[03:36] <robertj> because if it stops and you don't have a live cd you can't tell it to continue
[03:37] <jdub> oh right
[03:37] <robertj> (kinda related to my gripe about the scheduled fscking by default)
[03:38] <robertj> could that be avoided by building in usb stuff?
[03:42] <robertj> ?
[03:59] <mdz> robertj: the usual way to manage that situation is that the BIOS will emulate a PS/2 keyboard if only a USB keyboard is available
[03:59] <mdz> unfortunately, some of them don't
[04:00] <mdz> you can always load the USB drivers in the initrd
[04:00] <daniels> mdz: (or it's configurable, and defaults to not doing so)
[04:00] <mdz> yeah, "USB legacy blahblah" or whatever
[04:02] <robertj_> mdz: didn't knnow that
[04:02] <opi> or, instead of initrd, you can put it into kernel :-)
[04:02] <robertj_> although it doesn't make much sense for a mac to emulate a legacy keyboard
[04:02] <robertj_> ;)
[04:05] <jdub> basic usb key driver in the initrd isn't a terrible idea
[04:05] <robertj_> what sort of problems might it cause?
[04:06] <mdz> opi: "sudo vi /etc/mkinitrd/modules" is much more maintainable than building your own kernels
[04:07] <mdz> jdub: all of hotplug in the initrd isn't a terrible idea
[04:07] <opi> mdz: I guess, I just used to build kernel without help of Debian tools
[04:07] <mdz> at least, storage, input, network
[04:07] <robertj_> mdz: that would make my toaster angry
[04:07] <jdub> mdz: waiting for initramfs :)
[04:08] <mdz> jdub: don't hold your breath
[04:08] <mdz> robertj: how so?
[04:08] <jdub> heh
[04:08] <robertj_> ram limits ;)
[04:08] <opi> ahh, 4:08 Am
[04:08] <opi> I should start packing to work ;)
[04:08] <HrdwrBoB> mdz: that would be good, I didn't move a hard drive to a different controller the other day purely because I didn't want to stuff around with initrd
[04:09] <mdz> the hotplug infrastructure is only a few hundred K uncompressed; shouldn't make the initrd much bigger at all
[04:09] <ogra> opi: hehe, same here
[04:09] <opi> ogra: I'll be first in the office (yet again;-)
[04:10] <ogra> opi: i'm working hadrly on getting fired ;) i'll not be there before 12 :)
[04:10] <opi> ogra: and they say the labor maket is tigth. ;p
[04:10] <robertj_> mdz: but what modules do you load in?
[04:11] <opi> ogra: I'm chasing deadlines, so I have to work 19h per day do get there before end of the month
[04:11] <ogra> opi: maybe, but i cant stand digital tv ...
[04:11] <opi> ogra: I don't even have a TV ;p
[04:11] <robertj_> opi: eek, I hope you get paid well!
[04:11] <ogra> heh
[04:11] <HrdwrBoB> tseng: the initrd has them all already
[04:11] <opi> robertj_: haha, sorry, nope
[04:11] <HrdwrBoB> er robertj_ 
[04:12] <opi> robertj_: I'm just workoholic, I could work for a butter ;p
[04:12] <robertj_> Hrdwr: hrmm, so just sitting around waiting for hotplug to bring the monline eh
[04:12] <opi> and coffeine
[04:12] <mdz> robertj_: the -hcd driver for the controller, and usbhid, should get you a working keyboard
[04:12] <robertj_> opi: eek, I need more challenging work
[04:13] <HrdwrBoB> opi: excellent, come and work for me I will pay you in food scraps and old hardware
[04:13] <mdz> as a matter of fact, this desktop has a BIOS which doesn't give me proper USB emulation, so I've been meaning to do that myself
[04:13] <robertj_> I'm on site like 30 hours a week and work like 10 ;)
[04:14] <opi> HrdwrBoB: sorry, I could give you some spare hardware, too ;))
[04:14] <ogra> jdub.....patch sent :-D
[04:14] <opi> HrdwrBoB: and .au is a bit far ;p
[04:15] <jdub> ogra: rockin :)
[04:16] <ogra> jdub: yay
[04:16] <ajmitch> .au is just a short swim for me..
[04:16] <ajmitch> hi azeem 
[04:22] <HrdwrBoB> hha
[04:40] <opi> grrr. fsck!
[04:40] <opi> damn, stupid Gnome terminal :(
[04:41] <opi> https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5716 -- is there a way to avoid this? Or should I just use XTerm?
[04:42] <HrdwrBoB> use gvim?
[04:42] <tritium> Hi.  Is the "Developer Resources" page on the wiki gone?  I can't find it.
[04:43] <HrdwrBoB> I beleibe it's a screen/gnome-terminal problem
[04:43] <opi> HrdwrBoB: I prefer to SSH to my box at work
[04:43] <mdz> that screenshot does not seem to show vim
[04:43] <HrdwrBoB> opi: ssh -X :)
[04:43] <mdz> ah, the second one does
[04:43] <opi> mdz: it's VIm after screwup
[04:43] <opi> mdz: yeah, I made a mistake ;)
[04:43] <HrdwrBoB> opi: looks like a website to me
[04:43] <opi> HrdwrBoB: second one
[04:43] <opi> GTK file selector fooled me again ;)
[04:43] <opi> HrdwrBoB: tell that to my ISP ;p
[04:44] <tritium> mdz, you mentioned on the devel mailing list that resources to be found on "Develop Resources" wiki page would help track status of openoffice.org 2.0
[04:44] <tritium> mdz, could you please point me to that wiki page?
[04:44] <mdz> tritium: DeveloperResources
[04:44] <opi> tritium: see topic
[04:44] <mdz> is what I wrote in the email, and is also the name of the page
[04:45] <tritium> sorry, I searched for "Developer" and "Resources" on the wiki, and didn't get a hit
[04:45] <jdub> search doesn't find stuff in titles haw haw
[04:45] <tritium> I didn't think to concatenate the two words
[04:46] <tritium> I see.
[04:48] <mdz> tritium: there is a bug where searching for the title of a page doesn't find the page
[04:48] <tritium> mdz, okay, thanks.  And sorry to bother you.
[04:48] <opi> it's not a bug, it's a feature ;0)
[04:49] <opi> like VIm screwup
[04:49] <opi> ;-)
[04:49] <tritium> my whole point of searching for the "resources" you mentioned was to avoid pestering you
[04:49] <opi> tritium: I think mdz is not mad at you :)
[04:50] <tritium> opi, yeah, glad I'm not pummeled like Plone :)
[04:50] <opi> tritium: that would be $50, thank you ;P
[04:50] <mdz> plone has felt my wrath before
[04:50] <tritium> opi, check is in the mail
[04:52] <opi> tritium: I hope it's not made from rubber ;p
[04:52] <opi> tritium: anyway, it should go to mdz 
[04:52] <tritium> oh, it'll bounce
[04:52] <opi> actualy, some newbies fall for that
[04:53] <opi> when a newbie came to #debian.pl and ask for help
[04:53] <opi> someone lead him for hand
[04:53] <opi> and after, when the problem was solved,
[04:53] <opi> he told him: That would be 50 PLN 
[04:53] <tritium> poor newbie
[04:53] <opi> some people was willing to pay, untill we told'em it's a joke around here
[04:54] <opi> person a) hi guys, what's up? b) nothing, that'll be 50 PLN.
[04:54] <tritium> Actually, donations to your paypal account are reasonable, especially since you send out free CDs
[04:54] <opi> we just like helldesks
[04:55] <opi> free CDs are here thanks to Canonical
[04:55] <jdz_> Thanks Canonical!
[04:55] <opi> ;p
[04:55] <tritium> indeed
[04:57] <opi> I hope the Horay CD will be even better designed
[04:57] <opi> or, maybe not, because of that everyone take my Ubuntu CDs away ;)
[04:57] <robertj_> is free shipping going to continue
[04:57] <tritium> I going to pass the Hoary PPC Live CD around Purdue's ECE department.  All the faculty have macs, and are impressed with how I've setup my lab with ubuntu.
[04:57] <opi> from what I read, yes
[04:58] <tritium> I'm going to convert Debian's own birthplace into an ubuntu stronghold.
[04:58] <opi> but I guess you should ask Canonical guys
[04:58] <robertj_> I'd love to get billed $10 per release and get my 10 cds
[04:58] <tritium> I'd pay for CDs as well.
[04:59] <opi> you can get'em free and donate, no? :)
[04:59] <jdz_> Same here.  Actually, what'd be totaly awsome, would be DVDs.  Throw all the supported packages on there.  Good for those of us with limited bandwidth.
[04:59] <robertj_> opi: well lazyness factors in
[04:59] <robertj_> id rather just they show up
[04:59] <opi> jdz_: DVD won't have Universe
[04:59] <opi> jdz_: a) it won't fit b) it's not supported ;p
[04:59] <jdz_> opi: I realise that.  But a DVD with supported would be awsome.
[05:00] <opi> jdz_: DVD will be there, when main will be too big, methinks
[05:00] <opi> jdz_: Ubuntu should be 1-cd-distro
[05:00] <opi> so, next step is DVD
[05:01] <robertj_> I hope next step is cd
[05:07] <opi> I wonder, is there any pager with ability to use escape codes (color in that case)
[05:07] <opi> I did a CGI script for something, that outputs in different colors, depends on success
[05:07] <opi> if I'll log it, less won't show it correctly
[05:30] <mdz> jdz_: a DVD with all of supported is already produced on a weekly basis
[05:31] <mdz> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/weekly-dvd/
[05:31] <jdz_> mdz: oh!  totaly awsome!  thanks :D
[05:31] <mdz> it would benefit from more testing
[05:33] <jdub> mdz: currently only install, right?
[05:40] <mdz> jdub: yes
[05:40] <mdz> jdub: why, do you think a live DVD with all of supported installed would be a good idea?
[05:40] <jdub> mdz: haha
[05:40] <jdub> mdz: livedvd with supported install and normal live image :)
[05:40] <jdub> mdz: i thought that was the goal?
[05:40] <mdz> ah, yes
[05:40] <mdz> we're not quite there yet
[05:41] <jdub> although a livedvd with massive chunks of supported would be an enjoyable idiocy ;)
[05:41] <mdz> opi left, but "less -R" is probably the answer to his question
[05:49] <jdz_> mdz: I was wondering about that too, so thanks for the answer anyways :)
[06:14] <sivang> mdz: it would allow us to reach the netless people that are still out there...
[06:14] <sivang> ;-)
[06:32] <fabbione> morning
[06:33] <fabbione> jdub: 5431
[06:35] <mdz> fabbione: morning
[06:36] <fabbione> morning mdz
[06:37] <jdub> fabbione: thanks
[06:42] <fabbione> jdub: did you try installing hoary on your sparc? or do i need come there and kick your butt around to do that? :P
[06:43] <jdub> haha
[06:43] <jdub> it's installable now?
[06:43] <fabbione> it should be
[06:44] <fabbione> if you don't try you will never know
[06:44] <jdub> with netboot.iso, tftpbooting?
[06:44] <fabbione> sparc.u.c
[06:44] <jdub> ok
[06:44] <jdub> ta
[06:44] <fabbione> yeah that should work
[06:45] <mdz> no iso yet?
[06:45] <fabbione> dists/hoary/main/installer-sparc/current/images/sparc64/netboot/boot.img
[06:45] <fabbione> jdub: ^^
[06:45] <jdub> fabbione: what do you test on?
[06:45] <jdub> elite
[06:45] <fabbione> jdub: netra t1
[06:46] <fabbione> mdz: no, and no ubuntu-meta either...
[06:46] <fabbione> mdz: that's why i asked you to add sparc to germinate/seeds & co. :-)
[06:46] <mdz> fabbione: I don't remember that
[06:47] <mdz> germinate is Kamion's baby, and it should be trivial to include sparc
[06:47] <fabbione> mdz: it was on friday i think, but i also said that there was no rush
[06:47] <mdz> which packages need to be seeded?
[06:47] <mdz> silo?
[06:47] <fabbione> mdz: he was mumbling something about using sparc.u.c since germinate has no concept of multiple archives
[06:47] <mdz> ah, right
[06:47] <mdz> same problem with ubuntu-meta
[06:48] <fabbione> silo, silo-installer, sparc-utils should do...
[06:48] <whiprush> i can help test sparc this week, we have an assortment of them at work.
[06:49] <fabbione> whiprush: that would be cool, but keep in mind i did test only 2 installation
[06:49] <fabbione> and it is not a supported arch yet
[06:49] <fabbione> so if it fails you are kinda on your own ;)
[06:49] <whiprush> heh, it's ok, they're doing nothing but sitting around anyway.
[06:49] <fabbione> and patches to fix problems are more welcome than bugs :-)))
[06:51] <jdub> fabbione: burned.
[06:51] <fabbione> uh?
[06:51] <fabbione> that's tftp boot dude
[06:52] <fabbione> or did you burn the mini.iso?
[06:52] <jdub> hahaha
[06:52] <jdub> no, i mean, machine is burned.
[06:52] <jdub> toasted.
[06:52] <fabbione> */sparc64/NETBOOT/boot/*
[06:52] <fabbione> ah
[06:54] <jdub> serious namespace issues with mr. cdrom
[06:55] <mdz> mumble mumble coopers mumble mumble kangaroos
[06:55] <HrdwrBoB> mumble telstra mumble assgobblers mumble
[06:56] <fabbione> mdz: would you bless a message to announce for the sparc port?
[06:56] <fabbione> or should we wait for ubuntu-meta to be in place?
[06:57] <mdz> fabbione: ubuntu-meta doesn't seem like a prerequisite, no
[06:58] <fabbione> isn't that required to install ubuntu-desktop?
[06:59] <fabbione> ubuntu-base & co...
[06:59] <mdz> only if you try to apt-get install ubuntu-desktop or whatever
[07:00] <mdz> d-i uses the Task: header instead
[07:00] <fabbione> ok
[07:00] <fabbione> mdz: i am going to send a mail to you for itaglish proof reading :)
[07:01] <mdz> you should have an Itaglish project in Rosetta
[07:01] <mdz> and then I could translate
[07:01] <fabbione> eehhe
[07:01] <daniels> mdz: what's that, it_EN?
[07:02] <mdz> it_FABIO
[07:02] <fabbione> ahah
[07:05] <opi> with my Engrish, I deserve to have my own Rosetta place
[07:05] <opi> pl_OPI or something ;)
[07:06] <jdub> fabbione: kernel panic, couldn't find libc :)
[07:06] <jdub> fabbione: on mini.iso
[07:06] <jdub> 'attempt to access beyond end of device'
[07:07] <fabbione> jdub: that's a mini.iso boot parameter that might be wrong
[07:07] <fabbione> you can try to increase the ram size for the initrd
[07:08] <jdub> from silo?
[07:08] <fabbione> it's a kernel parameter
[07:08] <fabbione> wait a sec...
[07:09] <fabbione>         append vga=normal initrd=debian-installer/i386/initrd.gz ramdisk_size=12358 root=/dev/rd/0 rw  --
[07:09] <fabbione> this is what is added to i386 pxeboot
[07:10] <fabbione> so you need to twick the ramdisk_size
[07:10] <jdub> tops, that worked
[07:11] <jdub> now at language screen
[07:14] <daniels> http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/24/0515248&tid=90&tid=163&tid=106
[07:14] <fabbione> daniels: hey. install your sparc kid!
[07:14] <jdub> fabbione: ok, after the language/location/keymap questions, it loops clearing the screen
[07:15] <jdub> fabbione: debian-installer/framebuffer in the ps output
[07:15] <daniels> fabbione: give me an archive to mirror off :)
[07:15] <fabbione> daniels: sparc.u.c :-)
[07:15] <jdub> fabbione: which is stopping and starting
[07:15] <fabbione> jdub: hmm that's clearly a d-i bug
[07:16] <daniels> fabbione: rsyncable?
[07:16] <fabbione> jdub: you can switch to vty2 and change the script on the fly to avoid restarting
[07:16] <fabbione> daniels: yeps
[07:16] <jdub> actually, it's debian-installer itself that keeps restarting
[07:16] <fabbione> i probably didn't see this problem because i am on console only mode
[07:18] <fabbione> we will have to ask Kamion about it.
[07:18] <fabbione> i am not sure how much he changed in the fb section recently
[07:31] <fabbione> jdub: can you try to use the older installer?
[07:31] <fabbione> there are 2 versions hanging on sparc.u.v
[07:31] <fabbione> hem .c
[07:33] <jdub> 20041227ubuntu5?
[07:33] <fabbione> yup
[07:33] <jdub> on its way
[07:34] <fabbione> i have older ones in the morgue but it will be easier to ask Kamion when he is back
[07:36] <ajmitch> fabbione: kernel options checked out
[07:36] <fabbione> ajmitch: good
[07:41] <fabbione> mdz: you got mail :-)
[07:41] <fabbione> mdz: if you can proof read it and change what you think should be changes, it would be great
[07:41] <mdz> fabbione: I always od
[07:41] <mdz> do
[07:41] <fabbione> mdz: you don't always get mails from me :-)
[07:42] <mdz> I got mail from Lisa Clayton about online IT courses
[07:44] <fabbione> wow.. that'd be cool
[07:44] <fabbione> i never get mails from Lisa :-)
[07:45] <sivang> mdz: who's Lisa? ;-)
[07:45] <mdz> she mails me all the time
[07:45] <fabbione> bah people must stop filing bugs with url to the forums
[07:45] <fabbione> mdz: lucky you
[07:45] <mdz> sometimes about viagra, sometimes about IT education, sometimes about discounted copies of MS Windows
[07:45] <fabbione> i would take the latter :P
[07:45] <sivang> mdz: hehehe i get mine from caroline bedford...
[07:45] <sivang> intersting..
[07:45] <sivang> ;-)
[07:46] <sivang> I even get urge requests to allow some .za millonare to put all his money in my account until he can take it back..when he comes back there..It amazing how much variation of this email are out there.
[07:47] <daniels> i gave my bank details to a .za millionaire
[07:47] <daniels> my balance even went up a bit after that
[07:47] <sivang> daniels: heheh
[07:48] <sivang> daniels: sure, if it was him, I'd give him my bank account before he could say "Eureeka" ;-)
[07:52] <daniels> mdz: the message hasn't come to me, but we actually have a driver for that specific wireless kill switch in hoary -- fsam7400
[07:53] <mdz> message?
[07:53] <daniels> mdz: the mailing list message about wireless kill switches
[07:56] <bob2> daniels: does hotplug load your bluetooth modules?
[07:58] <daniels> i think so, yeah
[08:05] <mdz> daniels: you have bluetooth devices?
[08:05] <daniels> mdz: my phone has bluetooth love
[08:05] <mdz> Mark made a request for better bluetooth integration in Hoary
[08:05] <mdz> what are we missing?
[08:05] <daniels> i don't know as to things other than phones; all i use is gnome-bluetooth and gnome-phone-manager
[08:06] <daniels> basically for sending the photos i take with my camera phone to my computer
[08:06] <daniels> i never did get syncing to work; that would be absolutely killer in general
[08:07] <mdz> bob2: Ubuntu loves all
[08:08] <daniels> even those who didn't buy IBM laptops
[08:08] <jdub> mdz: i've got some build fixes to do
[08:08] <jdub> mdz: then some input testing
[08:08] <mdz> daniels: there are laptops which aren't made by IBM?
[08:09] <crimsun> jdub: how far along is the polypaudio transition, and what can I do to assist?
[08:09] <bob2> gnome-bluetooth doesn't seem to be installable atm
[08:09] <daniels> mdz: apparently there's an 'x300' or some shit.  sounds like a cheap ripoff of the x40.
[08:10] <jdub> crimsun: we should do it straight away
[08:10] <jdub> i think
[08:10] <bob2> I hear some fruit company is making laptops now too
[08:10] <bob2> jdub: fix gnome-bluetooth
[08:10] <jdub> bob2: see above
[08:11] <bob2> jdub: oh
[08:11] <bob2> jdub: well then :)
[08:11] <chrisa> bob2: I hear those laptops break a lot
[08:12] <bob2> chrisa: only when used to beat jealous non-believers
[08:12] <chrisa> bob2: The one in my backpack was never used for such beatings
[08:22] <fabbione> ajmitch: so is there any other CONFIG option i need to change or TMPFS_XATTR is the last one?
[08:44] <fabbione> mdz: 5749, any idea?
[08:45] <fabbione> could it be related to the new alsa changes?
[08:53] <crimsun> fabbione: I doubt it
[08:58] <crimsun> fabbione: 5749 needs to attach lsmod output for 2.6.10-1 and 2.6.10-2
[08:58] <crimsun> fabbione: reads like an irq issue or the secondary codec
[08:59] <fabbione> crimsun: can you just ask for it?
[08:59] <fabbione> i am in the middle of a build orgy :-)
[09:00] <crimsun> fabbione: I'll do that.
[09:01] <enrico> Hello.  Is there a collective e-mail for the sysadmin team?
[09:02] <enrico> I mean, sysadmins for the Canonical server farm
[09:03] <jdub> 'james.troup@canonical.com'
[09:04] <enrico> Ok.  I thought there was a team with more than one person
[09:04] <fabbione> crimsun: thanks
[09:04] <fabbione> jdub: meh! there is also thombot!
[09:04] <fabbione> ciao enrico
[09:04] <enrico> fabbione: ciao!
[09:05] <daniels> admins@admins.warthogs.hbd.com IIRC
[09:05] <enrico> daniels: thanks!
[09:07] <pitti> Morning!
[09:07] <fabbione> hey dude :-)
[09:08] <pitti> fabbione: no reason to, I don't have new kernel vulns :-)
[09:08] <fabbione> ah that sounds cool
[09:10] <opi> I need to wake up
[09:11] <pitti> I should go to bed earlier...
[09:19] <opi> I shouldn't get up around 2:00 am ;)
[09:19] <pitti> elmo: please sync awstats
[09:56] <fabbione> edd: ping
[09:59] <daniels> keybuk!
[10:02] <Keybuk> ello
[10:02] <jdub> morning
[10:03] <fabbione> bella Scott1
[10:05] <daniels> Keybuk: so.  automake.  libtool.
[10:06] <jdub> seb128: ping
[10:07] <seb128> jdub: pong
[10:07] <jdub> yo!
[10:07] <jdub> morning
[10:07] <jdub> does your nautilus-sendto work with gaim?
[10:07] <seb128> hey hey :)
[10:07] <seb128> afaik yep
[10:07] <daniels> seb128: how's that keyboard bug going? :)
[10:07] <jdub> hmm
[10:07] <jdub> i only get evo in the little menu
[10:07] <Keybuk> daniels: right?
[10:07] <seb128> at least here it works if I active the plugin in gaim
[10:07] <jdub> oh!
[10:08] <jdub> aha :)
[10:08] <seb128> apparently you have not :p
[10:08] <daniels> Keybuk: see my unimpressed face
[10:08] <seb128> evince 0.1.1 uploaded :)
[10:08] <jdub> seems a bit bong that you have to turn on a gaim plugin :|
[10:09] <seb128> agreed
[10:09] <daniels> Keybuk: the common code has some power management symbols, which are used for back-and-forth references with os-specific code
[10:09] <jdub> FIE ON GAIM
[10:09] <seb128> jdub: perhaps there is a way to turn the default for the plugin ?
[10:09] <jdub> (i almost typed gamin)
[10:09] <jdub> seb128: probably in gaim pref defaults -> ick
[10:09] <daniels> Keybuk: once I solved the fact that those got cleaned up automatically (having a libcommon_a_WHOLESOURCES for --whole-archive would be nice), I ran into the awful static interdependency thing
[10:09] <jdub> ooh
[10:10] <daniels> Keybuk: so I made a shared archive, but libtool won't make shared archives for noinst
[10:10] <sivang> seb128,pitti,others : morning
[10:10] <jdub> sendto is great
[10:10] <seb128> :)
[10:10] <pitti> Hi sivang!
[10:10] <daniels> jdub: a pox on gaim, eh
[10:10] <HrdwrBoB> a pox on gamin too, while we're at it
[10:10] <sivang> pitti: How are you ?
[10:10] <HrdwrBoB> why not be thorough
[10:10] <Keybuk> daniels: yeah, Libtool does; noinst_LTLIBRARIES gives you a "convenience library"
[10:10] <pitti> sivang: fine, thanks! I made good progress with postgresql 8 yesterday :-)
[10:11] <sivang> pitti: ah cool, you may want maybe to add something about it to wiki/ServerTeam ?
[10:11] <daniels> Keybuk: in the end I disabled power management in order to think about it later, so the OS-specific code didn't call back into common in that regard, but ugh
[10:12] <daniels> Keybuk: just seems a bit wack that how your library's built depends on the install process
[10:12] <fabbione> elmo: ping
[10:12] <pitti> sivang: hmm, what shall I add there?
[10:14] <jdub> seb128: haha, you can't get files, can you?
[10:14] <jdub> FIE ON GOSSIP
[10:15] <jdub> seb128: hrmph.
[10:15] <jdub> seb128: evince... hrmph.
[10:15] <seb128> jdub: you sent a file ?
[10:15] <jdub> seb128: yeah ;)
[10:15] <seb128> jdub: I thought than file transferts were only working for msn accounts
[10:15] <jdub> gaim seems to think it can send
[10:16] <seb128> can you send from gaim ?
[10:16] <seb128> or only with nautilus-sendto ?
[10:16] <jdub> both
[10:16] <seb128> hum
[10:18] <sivang> pitti: maybe something on support it has under ubunut, actually it may be only some info mainly for "marketing" the fact ubuntu is very suitable at being for example, or a suggestion how a pakcage can be made to make ubuntu with single apt-get a prefect out-of-the-box sql server? ;-) 
[10:19] <pitti> sivang: hmm, currently I do postgresql in my spare time, and usually maintain it through Debian
[10:20] <sivang> pitti: ah right..
[10:20] <pitti> sivang: I did not yet talk with sabdfl/mdz about a particular Ubuntu PostgreSQL support
[10:28] <sivang> pitti: ok, cool, I was just thinking we should start maybe working towards wiping the "desktop distro" thing, I think one thing that could be done as a starters is making meta packages that pull some sever + a gui controller app for it, so admin would get a working environemtn (if not optimised yet) by one apt-get install. one of the ideas I had wrt that.
[10:29] <daniels> Kamion: ping
[10:35] <seb128> Keybuk: just commented on  #5562 for you
[10:38] <fabbione> daniels:
[10:38] <fabbione>  dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg
[10:38] <fabbione>  /var/lib/dpkg/info/xserver-xorg.postinst: line 1075: [: : integer expression expected
[10:38] <daniels> fabbione: PENDINGUPLOAD :)
[10:38] <fabbione> daniels: ok
[10:38] <fabbione> let me guess...
[10:38] <daniels> fabbione: (happens if you don't have a recent-enough xresprobe; I bumped the Suggests to >= 0.4.13, but we don't Depend on it)
[10:38] <fabbione> it's related to Horiz and Vert sync/rate
[10:39] <daniels> fabbione: yeah
[10:39] <daniels> fabbione: when $DISPTYPE is empty (i.e. xresprobe didn't tell us)
[10:39] <daniels> there's a -n $DISPTYPE on it now
[10:39] <fabbione> daniels: i have 0.4.13 installed
[10:39] <Keybuk> seb128: yeah, I just replied
[10:40] <daniels> fabbione: bong
[10:40] <daniels> unreproducible
[10:40] <daniels> let me check it out later
[10:41] <daniels> i have an xorg upload in the queue here, as well as dbus
[10:41] <daniels> and I have to eat too :)
[10:41] <fabbione> i am checking it now
[10:42] <daniels> thanks
[10:42] <daniels> but yeah, IIRC that's an empty $DISPTYPE
[10:42] <Mithrandir> more likely an empty NRES
[10:42] <Mithrandir> since it's not assigned to at line 1075
[10:42] <daniels> oh, right
[10:42] <daniels> yes, I've fixed that locally also :)
[10:42] <Mithrandir> that's assigned like 20 lines later.
[10:42] <daniels> maybe that's why I couldn't reproduce it
[10:43] <Mithrandir> heh
[10:43] <daniels> yeah, that test is now below the NRES thing
[10:43] <Mithrandir>     NRES=0
[10:43] <Mithrandir>     for i in $RESOLUTIONS; do
[10:43] <Mithrandir>       NRES=$(expr $NRES + 1)
[10:43] <Mithrandir>     done
[10:43] <Mithrandir> dude, you know about $#, don't you?
[10:43] <fabbione> uh? no
[10:43] <fabbione> i remember i wrote that
[10:43] <Mithrandir> actually ${#RESOLUTIONS}
[10:44] <fabbione> ugly but effective
[10:44] <Mithrandir> at least if $RESOUTIONS is an array
[10:44] <fabbione> no it's not..
[10:44] <fabbione> it's a list in a string i get from xresprobe
[10:44] <Mithrandir> yeah, it can't be an array.  posix sh sucks.
[10:45] <Mithrandir> and ${#RES} would be the string length.
[10:52] <pitti> elmo: please sync enscript
[10:53] <daniels> alternately, we could use NRES=$(echo $RESOLUTIONS | wc -w)
[11:12] <Kamion> daniels: yes?
[11:12] <Kamion> geez, about a million people were looking for me this weekend
[11:12] <jdub> did you get a strange sms? :)
[11:13] <thom> jdub: you better not have filed a duplicate bug about hdparm :P
[11:14] <jdub> it was not clearly duplicate :)
[11:15] <thom> not duplicate on "hdparm: run too early"? ;-)
[11:16] <Kamion> jdub: phone out of battery at the moment, will no doubt get it eventually ;)
[11:16] <jdub> heh
[11:19] <thom> right, lets see how this live cd goes
[11:20] <fabbione> hey Kamion 
[11:22] <fabbione> Kamion: can you read the scrollback when you have time? jdub did a test install on sparc, but apparently something in d-i broke fb between ubuntu5 and ubuntu6
[11:22] <jdub> elmo: ping
[11:22] <jdub> fabbione: reminds me... ;)
[11:22] <eruin> any chance of getting updates for linux-restricted-modules for 2.6.8 (k7) ? 2.6.9 incorporates a change in ptrace that breaks cedega/copy protection, while 2.6.10 won't boot due to bug#5582
[11:23] <fabbione> jdub: wasn't the loop that d-i was restarting?
[11:24] <eruin> I can't use nvidia-glx since the linux-restricted-modules I have for 2.6.8 is nvidia6111, and for some reason I have to reinstall the official drivers on every boot to fix a memory segment fault...
[11:25] <eruin> oh so sorry if this comes across as whine ;)
[11:30] <Kamion> fabbione: I saw that in scrollback, but it doesn't mean I know what's going on
[11:30] <Kamion> fabbione: and, you know better. ubuntu5 and ubuntu6 of what?
[11:30] <thom-live> hrm, this live cd thang is pretty sweet
[11:30] <fabbione> Kamion: d-i
[11:30] <Kamion> the debian-installer source package just assembles the output of other packages
[11:30] <fabbione> Kamion: perhaps jdub can give you more info :-)
[11:30] <thom-live> basically the only problem is the lack of monitor probing on amd64...
[11:31] <Kamion> fabbione: anyway the only likely candidate for change there is the kernel
[11:31] <fabbione> Kamion: right... the lists should be on sparc.u.c
[11:31] <Kamion> it's your port, you get to debug it :)
[11:32] <Kamion> diff the initrd.list files
[11:32] <fabbione> Kamion: i know. but it's unlike that i  know all the bits of all the code out there :-)
[11:33] <Kamion> rootskel didn't change, busybox changed but not in a way that's interesting for that, and nothing else but the kernel is liable to be relevant
[11:33] <Kamion> ah, no, busybox actually didn't change
[11:33] <fabbione> jdub: where was the installer hanging or looping?
[11:37] <jdub> fabbione: seemed to be on initialising or configuring the fb
[11:37] <jdub> /dev/fb0 existed
[11:37] <jdub> /proc/fb existed (nothing in it)
[11:38] <Kamion> /dev/fb/0 surely
[11:38] <jdub> yeah, sorry
[11:38] <jdub> seb128: no gnomemeeting 1.2.0?
[11:39] <seb128> jdub: ups, that's because it's in experimental and nobody as asked a sync ...
[11:39] <seb128> jdub: and they have not released for ages so I've forgotten about it
[11:39] <jdub> ;)
[11:39] <seb128> I'll update it :)
[11:42] <jdub> hrm, got a few here
[11:42] <jdub> some are recent, some are not
[11:44] <eruin> http://209.96.136.140/images/Screenshot.png
[11:44] <eruin> are you guys tracking fedora patches like that?
[11:44] <thom> gack. Need to get 464MB/465MB of archives
[11:45] <thom> eruin: ym the gtk filechooser?
[11:45] <thom> eruin: yeah, will be
[11:45] <eruin> yeah
[11:45] <eruin> ok :)
[11:53] <fabbione> jdub: is there something relevant in /var/log/ ?
[11:54] <fabbione> iirc d-i stores all its logging bit somewhere there
[11:54] <Kamion> /var/log/ before reboot, /var/log/debian-installer/ after reboot
[11:55] <jdub> i'll have to try it again in a while
[11:56] <fabbione> Kamion: accoring to the diff on the list there are plenty of udebs that are changed :-P
[11:56] <fabbione> according even
[11:57] <fabbione> Kamion: http://www.fabbione.net/udiff <- anything that rings a bell?
[12:02] <seb128> elmo: pwlib sync from experimental please
[12:04] <Kamion> fabbione: yes, I already looked at that list myself
[12:06] <Kamion> fabbione: anna doesn't run until later. casper-check's irrelevant. cdebconf hasn't started yet. di-utils is irrelevant. file-preseed is irrelevant. hotplug-udeb is a possibility I suppose, but you get to check that. initrd-preseed's irrelevant. kbd-chooser runs later. libdebconfclient0-udeb hasn't started yet. libnss-dns-udeb's irrelevant. localechooser and main-menu run later. preseed-common, rescue-check are irrele
[12:06] <Kamion> fabbione: the only possibility I see is hotplug; porting that is your job. :-)
[12:06] <Kamion> seriously I can't afford to give debugging time to unofficial ports at the moment; if unofficial means anything, then it must mean that ...
[12:08] <fabbione> Kamion: yes i understand. i didn't ask for a fix, but for the right direction to look at. and i posted the diff because i didn't get that you already looked at it
[12:09] <fabbione> thanks for your time anyway
[12:12] <Kamion> pitti: is language-pack-* guaranteed to depend only on stuff in base, or is it allowed to depend on things in desktop?
[12:12] <Kamion> pitti: and what should server installations do?
[12:13] <pitti> Kamion: language-pack-[update]  only depends on a recent libc6
[12:13] <pitti> Kamion: so, yes, only base
[12:13] <pitti> Kamion: the bigger problem is language-support
[12:13] <Kamion> would it make sense to install language-pack-* in the first stage?
[12:13] <Kamion> or should it be a second-stage thing?
[12:13] <pitti> Kamion: these packages depend on packages in supported, not only in shipped
[12:13] <Kamion> that's not a problem
[12:13] <pitti> Kamion: I would favor second
[12:13] <Kamion> well, not a soluble one
[12:14] <Kamion> not all the language packs will fit on the CD so they can't all be shipped anyway
[12:14] <pitti> Kamion: would it be possible to try to --dry-run the installation of language-support before actually doing it?
[12:14] <Kamion> no we'll just try to install them and ignore failures
[12:14] <pitti> Kamion: then the installer would not install the support package if no network is present
[12:14] <Kamion> not necessary
[12:14] <pitti> Kamion: okay, same effect
[12:15] <pitti> Kamion: so the support package is installed if dependencies can be fulfilled on CD (or from network), and not installed otherwise?
[12:15] <Kamion> yes
[12:15] <pitti> cool
[12:15] <pitti> Kamion: server installations should not install support
[12:15] <pitti> Kamion: however, they should probably install language-pack
[12:15] <Kamion> if its dependencies can't be fulfilled then germinate will not allow it to be on the CD anyway
[12:15] <Kamion> ok
[12:16] <pitti> Kamion: btw, what do you think about moving locale generation from package "locales" to language-pack-XX?
[12:16] <Kamion> see my mail to the list
[12:16] <pitti> Kamion: then we don't need the first debconf question any more
[12:16] <Kamion> I don't think it's appropriate to *move* it
[12:16] <pitti> do in addition?
[12:16] <Kamion> yeah
[12:16] <Kamion> pitti: which first debconf question?
[12:17] <pitti> Kamion: the locales question of which locales to support
[12:17] <pitti> (not shown usually, though)
[12:17] <Kamion> some people were saying some very scary and wrong things in scrollback about having the keyboard selector thing imply a locale
[12:17] <Kamion> pitti: that's a useful question to have for experts, it shouldn't be removed
[12:17] <pitti> okay
[12:17] <pitti> so l-pack would just add its locales (if not already present) to /etc/locale.gen and call locale-gen
[12:17] <Kamion> (keyboard selection can't imply a locale; they're totally orthogonal things ...)
[12:18] <Kamion> yeah
[12:18] <Kamion> and depend on locales, if it doesn't already
[12:18] <pitti> it doesn't already
[12:18] <Kamion> ok, will need to
[12:18] <pitti> sure
[12:19] <pitti> cool, so array 4 could already have a full language pack support installer?
[12:19] <Kamion> I'm working on the base-config changes, they're kind of tied in with better kickstart support
[12:19] <Kamion> yeah
[12:19] <pitti> neat, then I will see to add the locale generation stuff soon
[12:19] <Kamion> need to decide which language packs to put on the CD though
[12:19] <pitti> ^ probably a tb item?
[12:19] <Kamion> probably
[12:20] <pitti> I remember sabdfl saying something about 10 to 15 supported languages
[12:20] <pitti> right now all the langpacks don't use much more space than before
[12:20] <Kamion> disk space on CD may trump sabdfl ;)
[12:20] <pitti> since the same files now get stripped from the application debs
[12:20] <Kamion> sabdfl < laws of physics < baby jesus
[12:20] <pitti> but in the long run, and with Rosetta, translations will grow :-)
[12:21] <pitti> lol
[12:22] <Kamion> hm, have you seen the languagelist file in localechooser?
[12:23] <Kamion> it has a list of fallback locales for each language
[12:23] <pitti> no, I did not see it
[12:23] <Kamion> I'm wondering if we should install all the language packs matching locales listed as fallbacks
[12:24] <Kamion> that would mean most languages would get language-pack-en which is probably a useful thing, and e.g. Norwegian would get Danish and Swedish too as fallbacks
[12:24] <Kamion> or Galician would get Spanish
[12:24] <pitti> hmm, sounds as if it would make sense
[12:25] <pitti> I now have the list on my screen
[12:25] <pitti> however, why should German folks use en_GB?
[12:25] <mvo_> seb128: is there already a open bug that nautilus-cd-burner does not allow blanking a RW?
[12:25] <Kamion> *shrug* that doesn't matter, it'll map to language-pack-en
[12:25] <Kamion> it's just a fallback, it has to be a full locale but it's not very important which it is
[12:25] <pitti> Kamion: right, but en is the fallback to most/all languages
[12:26] <Kamion> yes, that's good :)
[12:26] <seb128> mvo_: correct
[12:26] <mvo_> seb128: a word from upstream when it will get fixed :) ?
[12:26] <seb128> mvo_: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=164352
[12:26] <pitti> Kamion: well, e. g. es as a fallback to Galician makes sense
[12:26] <seb128> mvo_: no, no reply at all
[12:26] <Kamion> this means we can ask for some English locale while debugging
[12:26] <seb128> mvo_: but if you umount it or try again it works
[12:26] <pitti> Kamion: but installing en everywhere seems a bit too much...
[12:26] <Mithrandir> Kamion: I'm a bit reluctant with having other nearby languages as fallbacks, actually.  Having a UI with Norwegian and English is a lot less cluttered and confusing than Norwegian Bokml, Norwegian Nynorsk, Swedish, Danish and English.
[12:26] <Kamion> hmm] 
[12:27] <Kamion> ok, let's just have the native one for now then
[12:27] <pitti> Kamion: in any case I would only install the main support package with no fallbacks
[12:27] <Kamion> it'll actually be Norwegian and C, not Norwegian and English ;)
[12:27] <Kamion> pitti: sure
[12:27] <Mithrandir> (this is a gripe of mine currently as well, though)
[12:28] <pitti> Kamion: since with no langpack you get C (so, usually English) anyway, is there really a need for l-p-en?
[12:28] <Kamion> pitti: English != C
[12:28] <Kamion> pitti: it makes a difference for en_GB sometimes
[12:28] <pitti> right, but approx. :-)
[12:28] <Kamion> please don't kill l-p-en
[12:28] <pitti> should be good enough for debugging output
[12:28] <mvo_> seb128: it looks like n-c-b should just ummount (or ask for it) ?
[12:28] <pitti> Kamion: no, I won't kill l-p-en
[12:29] <Kamion> 11:27 < Kamion> ok, let's just have the native one for now then
[12:29] <pitti> Kamion: for British/American folks, it really makes sense
[12:29] <seb128> mvo_: it's supposed to do, and that was working with the previous version ...
[12:29] <pitti> ack
[12:29] <mvo_> seb128: ah ... thanks!
[12:29] <jdub> MMMMMMM!
[12:29] <jdub> you guys can wait until april :)
[12:30] <thom> jdub: bastardo!
[12:31] <thom> jdub: oh, tesco sells timtams here now
[12:31] <fabbione> thom: since when you speak italian? ;)
[12:31] <thom> fabbione: since jeff eats kangaroo
[12:31] <thom> ;-)
[12:31] <fabbione> haha
[12:32] <jdub> thom: no way!
[12:32] <thom> yeah, coffeee just got better ;-)
[12:32] <jdub> haha
[12:32] <jdub> tea drinking pansy
[12:33] <jdub> where is Keybuk anyway?
[12:33] <thom> pfft, hot drinks rights activist
[12:33] <jdub> haha
[12:33] <ajmitch> mm, kangaroo..
[12:41] <thom> seb128: we should close #980, right?
[12:43] <seb128> thom: correct
[12:44] <seb128> thom: BTW are you going to fix #3042, I don't remember what you said about it
[12:44] <seb128> (and #3044)
[12:45] <mjg59> fabbione: You have crack
[12:45] <mjg59> (mail)
[12:45] <fabbione> ARGH
[12:45] <fabbione> Uploading via ftp linux-source-2.6.10_2.6.10-11.diff.gz: exiting due to user interrupt.
[12:45] <seb128> mjg59: have you planned to update dasher in debian ?
[12:45] <mjg59> Hahaha
[12:45] <mjg59> seb128: I will do - there's currently a crasher bug in the latest tarball
[12:45] <seb128> ok
[12:45] <thom> seb128: oh, right
[12:45] <thom> yeah
[12:45] <seb128> so I'll wait :)
[12:46] <seb128> thom: cool, thanks :)
[12:46] <fabbione> mjg59: still nothing in my inbox...
[12:46] <mjg59> fabbione: #5807
[12:46] <mjg59> Fix for ACPI regression
[12:47] <fabbione> i see
[12:47] <fabbione> dude.. can you reduce that patch to what is really needed?
[12:48] <fabbione> bah i guess i can apply all of it
[12:49] <mjg59> The other big bit of code is useful anyway - it makes things work with a slightly wider range of broken DSDTs
[12:53] <fabbione>   * More Matthew Garrett crack:
[12:53] <fabbione>     - Add patch stolen-from-head_acpi_fix_regression.dpatch.
[12:53] <fabbione>     (Closes: #5807)
[12:53] <fabbione> you get also mentioned in the changelog!
[12:53] <fabbione> isn't that cool?
[12:53] <fabbione> :P
[12:57] <fabbione> food time
[12:57] <mjg59> Haha
[01:15] <fabbione> ajmitch: are you around?
[01:15] <ajmitch> yes
[01:15] <ajmitch> sorry about the late info
[01:15] <fabbione> CONFIG_AUDITSYSCALL is not portable to all the arches
[01:15] <ajmitch> ok
[01:15] <fabbione> i am going to keep it off for now
[01:15] <ajmitch> I haven't seen it being used yet
[01:15] <fabbione> ok
[01:16] <thom> fabbione: is the additional speedstep centrino support patch already in hoary, or is that part of todays upload? (just so i know to ping some bugs or not)
[01:21] <fabbione> thom: you mean the dothan_p4 fix?
[01:24] <thom> yeah
[01:24] <fabbione> today upload
[01:24] <fabbione> -11
[01:24] <thom> cool
[01:24] <fabbione> :)
[01:25] <thom> fabbione: is it worth setting the default elevator to "cfq"?
[01:26] <fabbione> thom: i dunno.. mjg59 is the person to ask
[01:26] <thom> i think it makes a lot of sense for desktop/laptop systems
[01:27] <mjg59> Do any other distributions use it by default?
[01:27] <thom> not that i know of
[01:27] <thom> suse might
[01:29] <fabbione> does that require me to change something in the kernel?
[01:29] <fabbione> if so you have less than 10 days to test and let me know :P
[01:31] <thom> heh
[01:33] <fabbione> ok a bit more serious now.. do i need to change something in the kernel?
[01:34] <fabbione> thom: i don't mind "breaking" it now
[01:34] <fabbione> but later might hurt more
[01:34] <fabbione> (getting closer to my honeymoon and stuff like that)
[01:35] <mjg59> It can be done through the bootloader
[01:35] <mjg59> I've no idea what needs to be done to make it the default
[01:35] <thom> fabbione: i can't remember the magic, it's a .config change - we already build and ship cfq, i'd just like to change to using it by default
[01:35] <thom> i'll look in a minute
[01:35] <fabbione> ok let me check too
[01:35] <thom> and, as matthew says, you can enable in in your bootloader with "elevator=cfq"
[01:36] <fabbione> we build and ship all the elevators
[01:37] <fabbione> but no idea which one is set by default
[01:37] <ajmitch> anticipatory io scheduler, isn't it?
[01:38] <Mithrandir> iirc, yes
[01:38] <thom> yes, anticipatory is default
[01:39] <thom> coo, the dist-upgrade of destiny is done
[01:39] <pitti> seb128: ping
[01:40] <fabbione> thom: there are some documentation bits in Documentation/block/
[01:40] <fabbione> some of them a bit scary
[01:43] <seb128> pitti: pong
[01:44] <fabbione> thom: mind to clean the incoming queue on jackass from the linux-source bits i was uploading before?
[01:45] <thom> 'spose i can
[01:45] <fabbione> do you want the centrino speedstep fixes?
[01:45] <abelli> fabbione: after a dist-upgrade on a k7, apt's asking for linux-386, why?
[01:45] <thom> fabbione: heh
[01:46] <fabbione> abelli: no idea.. that's for sure not a kernel problem
[01:46] <fabbione> abelli: you need to see what is pulling in linux-386
[01:46] <thom> rm linux-source-2.6.10_2.6.10-11.dsc
[01:47] <fabbione> there should be also a piece of diff.gz
[01:47] <thom> fabbione: you should be good to go
[01:47] <thom> nope
[01:47] <fabbione> ok cool
[01:47] <fabbione> Uploading via ftp linux-source-2.6.10_2.6.10-11.diff.gz: 
[01:48] <fabbione> on the way sir
[01:48] <fabbione> mjg59: your patch is in
[01:48] <fabbione> including the new 31337 DRI drivers
[01:51] <abelli> well aptitude wants them, but if he tries apt-get/synaptic it doesnt seem to be required
[01:52] <fabbione> abelli: you need to see what depends/reccomends it
[01:53] <abelli> it seems nothing, since apt-get doesnt say anything about it
[01:53] <fabbione> apt-cache rdepends linux-386
[01:53] <abelli> already tried :)
[01:54] <elmo> amu: ?
[01:54] <fabbione> hey elmo
[01:54] <fabbione> elmo: when you have time, mind to add the Release files to sparc.u.c? otherwise d-i can't validate the archive
[01:55] <elmo> pitti: done
[01:55] <elmo> uh
[01:55] <pitti> elmo: thanks. both?
[01:55] <elmo> pitti: yeah
[01:55] <fabbione> elmo: dists/hoary/Release
[01:55] <elmo> seb128: that's one heck of a jump - does that come under your gnome-exemption ?
[01:55] <mvo_> abelli: a recommends? aptitude installs recommends by default, apt/synaptic does not
[01:56] <elmo> [Updating]  pwlib (1.6.6.4-5.1 [ubuntu]  < 1.8.3-2 [debian] )
[01:56] <seb128> elmo: yep, gnomemeeting is a part of the GNOME desktop and 1.2 needs this pwlib
[01:56] <abelli> mvo_: no is not recommended..
[01:57] <elmo> seb128: ok, done
[01:57] <abelli> is "packages (new) that will be installed"
[01:58] <elmo> fabbione: ok, one sec, I need to clear NEW, and it's far too early in the morning to be breaking my brain with rsync's include/exclude madness
[01:58] <fabbione> elmo: "when you have time please"
[01:58] <fabbione> i don't need it right awat
[01:58] <fabbione> away even
[02:00] <mjg59> fabbione: Rock
[02:02] <fabbione> SteveA: patch-2.6.10-mh2.gz <- is this the release you are talking about?
[02:02] <SteveA> fabbione: not sure.  where do they hide their changelogs?
[02:02] <fabbione> i am on bluez.org
[02:03] <SteveA> http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:AHgKuJBSS30J:www.zaurususergroup.com/forums/index.php%3Fshowtopic%3D9995%26view%3Dgetlastpost+ambicom+bt2000c+bluez&hl=en&client=firefox
[02:03] <SteveA> can you get to that google cache page?
[02:04] <SteveA> this is an annoucement of a binary packaging of bluez for the zaurus
[02:04] <fabbione> yes i can see it
[02:04] <SteveA> but, it mentions support for the BT2000C CF card
[02:04] <fabbione> Ambicom BT2000C Support. Thanks to tetron for spotting this had been included in the latest drivers
[02:04] <SteveA> so, i'm trying to find out what version of bluez includes that support
[02:04] <SteveA> and then request that that version is in hoary
[02:04] <fabbione> 22.01.2005
[02:04] <fabbione> Bluetooth kernel patch 2.6.10-mh2 available -<
[02:04] <fabbione> the one before is older than the post...
[02:04] <daniels> thom: i know, it's on my TODO
[02:05] <fabbione> so there is not that much difference
[02:05] <fabbione> i am checking the patch
[02:06] <SteveA> dude, if you can get this going, i owe you several beers in canberra
[02:06] <seb128> thom: new version broken ?
[02:06] <fabbione> SteveA: i am checking how intrusive is the patch
[02:06] <fabbione> SteveA: remember we are going to commit to support it for 18 months :-)
[02:07] <SteveA> the whole issue stinks, actually.
[02:07] <thom> seb128: seems pretty unhappy
[02:07] <SteveA> ambicom had their BT2000 card, with ericson chipset
[02:07] <SteveA> well supported by the kernel
[02:08] <SteveA> then, they released another BT2000 card, essentially the same model number
[02:08] <SteveA> sold interchangably by amazon, retail stores etc.
[02:08] <SteveA> but with different chipet, not supported.  and stopped selling the old card
[02:08] <seb128> thom: like ?
[02:08] <SteveA> so, many people looked into the ambicom BT2000, saw that bluez supported it, and received a *different* kind of BT2000
[02:08] <thom> seb128: when i change workspace, i see every window i have open for a second
[02:09] <elmo> fabbione: done
[02:09] <seb128> thom: we call that a crash :p
[02:09] <Mithrandir> SteveA: it'll be interesting when they can't pull off such stunts, since they will then be misleading the customer.
[02:09] <seb128> thom: could you attach it in gdb and give a bt on #5823 ?
[02:09] <fabbione> elmo: rocking!
[02:10] <thom> seb128: sure
[02:11] <fabbione> SteveA: i don't see anything in that patch that is related to that interface
[02:11] <thom> seb128: it's segfaulting every time i change workspace, yeah
[02:11] <fabbione> i guess i will have to give a bk check..
[02:12] <SteveA> fabbione: iirc, the card was already providing some kind of serial interface via bluez.  it needed hooking up in some way or other.  at least, that was one option to get it working. 
[02:12] <mjg59> fabbione: Good thing you don't work for a company producing an RCS, isn't it?
[02:13] <fabbione> SteveA: hmm ok.. what if i cook up a kernel for you and test it for me?
[02:13] <fabbione> mjg59: Good thing i am not part of THAT team :P
[02:13] <fabbione> SteveA: what kernel do you need? k7 ? 686? ppc?
[02:14] <SteveA> steve@zeus3 ~ $ uname -a
[02:14] <SteveA> Linux zeus3 2.6.10-1-686 #1 Tue Jan 11 03:24:24 UTC 2005 i686 GNU/Linux
[02:14] <fabbione> SteveA: ok.. that's an easy one :-)
[02:14] <fabbione> stay tuned for the next 20 minutes....
[02:14] <SteveA> okay
[02:21] <fabbione> SteveA: in the meanwhile download a copy of linux-image-2.6.10-2-686_2.6.10-10_i386.deb
[02:21] <fabbione> and  keep it handy for recovery...
[02:21] <fabbione> nothing should be THAT bad
[02:21] <fabbione> but it's good to have
[02:23] <SteveA> i have linux-image-2.6.10-2-686_2.6.10-9_i386.deb in /var/cache/apt/archives/
[02:23] <SteveA> will that do?
[02:23] <fabbione> yes.. just copy it  somewhere
[02:24] <fabbione> it's building now :-)
[02:26] <SteveA> fabbione: i have a cdrom and ubuntu / knoppix cds for if it goes horribly wrong ;-)
[02:26] <no0tic> hi, I've upgraded metacity now and it gives me problems
[02:27] <fabbione> SteveA: ehehe ok
[02:27] <no0tic> when I try to move windows borders and title bar disappear and window remains where it is
[02:28] <fabbione> no0tic: please file a bug with all the details
[02:28] <no0tic> it's rather unusable 
[02:28] <fabbione> put it as a major problem
[02:28] <no0tic> it seems like it crashes and restart every time
[02:31] <thom> no0tic: bug already filed
[02:31] <thom> no0tic: #5823
[02:32] <thom> aargh, i've forgotten all my fluxbox foo
[02:32] <seb128> everybody else than me get this crash ?
[02:33] <thom> seb128: looks like
[02:33] <seb128> thom: could you rebuild the package on your box without debian/patches ?
[02:33] <thom> sure
[02:34] <pitti> elmo: is it possible to install baz on rookery?
[02:36] <elmo> pitti: done
[02:36] <pitti> elmo: thanks
[02:38] <pitti> sivang: I will now alter l-s-il to depend on culmus
[02:38] <pitti> sivang: any other dependencies?
[02:38] <no0tic> I updated metacity bug
[02:39] <seb128> and I still don't get it :/
[02:39] <seb128> are you guys using an amd64 ? i386 ?
[02:39] <thom> i'm on amd64
[02:39] <no0tic> x86
[02:39] <no0tic> k7 
[02:39] <thom> brb with unpatched metacity
[02:39] <seb128> thom: killall metacity, no need to brb :)
[02:40] <no0tic> I started metacity from tty1 to display :0
[02:40] <seb128> do you have a backtrace ?
[02:40] <thom> seb128: i was running ion ;P
[02:40] <no0tic> every time I try to do something with windows, it crashes Segmentation Fault
[02:40] <seb128> get a backtrace !
[02:40] <no0tic> how?
[02:41] <seb128> ps ax | grep metacity
[02:41] <thom> seb128: anyway, still happens without patches (i disabled simple-patchsys in d/rules
[02:41] <seb128> gdb -p <pid>
[02:41] <seb128> thom: ok, so I can bother upstreams if needed :p
[02:41] <thom> it is needed :P
[02:41] <seb128> thom: remove libglib2.0-0-dbg which is bugged and DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS="nostrip noopt" debuild
[02:42] <seb128> for metacity
[02:42] <seb128> get a full bt and I'll kick upstreams :)
[02:42] <seb128> how many workspaces do you have guys ?
[02:42] <thom> 8
[02:42] <jdub> 4
[02:43] <seb128> jdub: you get the crash too ?
[02:43] <jdub> haven't upgraded yet ;)
[02:43] <seb128> so no need to give your workspaces :p
[02:45] <seb128> thom, no0tic: theme used ?
[02:47] <mvo_> Kamion: the /casper dir is only on the live-cd, not on the install cd? (I need a way to not detect the live-cd as a ubuntu-cd)
[02:48] <no0tic> seb128: it blocked X completly now, I wasn't able to switch to console
[02:49] <seb128> I got this too while attaching in gdb :/
[02:50] <fabbione> hem you might want to attach gdb from console and let it run
[02:50] <no0tic> I was attaching to gdb too
[02:50] <no0tic> s/to/in
[02:51] <fabbione> yes but attacching gdb will stop the process from running
[02:51] <fabbione> you need to write run or something
[02:51] <fabbione> to resume all the operations
[02:51] <fabbione> SteveA: uploading the new kernel.. 
[02:51] <Kamion> mvo_: yes, but it will be on the combination install/live DVD so I recommend against that approach
[02:52] <Kamion> mvo_: if I figured out how to get rid of /dists/hoary/main/binary-* from the live CD, would that do the job?
[02:53] <Kamion> is anyone else noticing grub-install segfaulting on amd64?
[02:53] <Mithrandir> Kamion: hm?
[02:53] <mvo_> Kamion: probably, yes. I use apt-cdrom ident to check for a valid cd. 
[02:53] <seb128> no0tic, thom: what keymap are you using ?
[02:53] <Kamion> /sbin/grub-install: line 516: 21053 Segmentation fault      $grub_shell --batch $no_floppy --device-map=$device_map  >$log_file <<EOF
[02:53] <Kamion> root $root_drive
[02:53] <fabbione> SteveA: http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~fabbione/linux-image-2.6.10-2-686_2.6.10-12_i386.deb
[02:53] <Kamion> setup $force_lba --stage2=$grubdir/stage2 --prefix=$grub_prefix $install_drive
[02:53] <Kamion> quit
[02:54] <mvo_> Kamion: live-cd of today worked perfectly on my test-machine btw. contracts :)
[02:54] <fabbione> SteveA: please test and let me know.. if it works i will add the patch to the final -12 release, but in the meanwhile please roll back to -10/-11
[02:54] <no0tic> seb128: it
[02:54] <Kamion> mvo_: congratulations should go to mdz for most of this stuff
[02:55] <Mithrandir> Kamion: Due to a bug in xfs_freeze, the following command might produce a segmentation
[02:55] <SteveA> fabbione: so, you want me to install this kernel image, see how the BT card goes, report on it, and then go back to the regular hoary one?
[02:55] <Mithrandir> fault when /boot/grub is not in an XFS filesystem. This error is harmless and
[02:55] <Mithrandir> can be ignored.
[02:55] <Kamion> Mithrandir: yes, it's not that though
[02:55] <fabbione> SteveA: correct
[02:55] <Mithrandir> Kamion: ok
[02:55] <SteveA> okay.  downloading the .deb
[02:55] <Kamion> Mithrandir: /sbin/grub is segfaulting, not xfs_freeze
[02:55] <Mithrandir> Kamion: then "worksforme".
[02:55] <Kamion> I can reproduce it, it's the 'setup' command
[02:56] <Mithrandir> Kamion: b0rken device.map?
[02:56] <thom> seb128: theme: mist; keymap: uk
[02:56] <fabbione> SteveA: cool
[02:56] <Kamion> Mithrandir: just '(hd0) /dev/sda', it's worked for ages and it's only recently that it's started breaking
[02:57] <Kamion> strace won't trace /sbin/grub, annoyingly
[02:57] <Mithrandir> Kamion: grab a 32 bit strace
[02:57] <fabbione> Kamion: is that on a sata disk?
[02:57] <Mithrandir> since grub is a 32 bit binary.
[02:57] <Kamion> fabbione: yes
[02:57] <no0tic> seb128: unfortunately I must go now...
[02:58] <Mithrandir> Kamion: I tried on a sata drive as well, fwiw.
[02:58] <seb128> no0tic: ok, I think thom will track the bug with me so that's fine, thanks
[02:58] <Kamion> amd64 strace tries, and does report that it's running in 32-bit mode, but falls over with 'ptrace: umoven: Input/output error'
[02:58] <seb128> thom: hum ... so how is that nostrip build going ? :)
[02:59] <Mithrandir> Kamion: yes, try with 32 bit strace.  That's normal for 64 bit strace.
[02:59] <no0tic> seb128: from gdb output: /usr/lib/pango/1.4.0/modules/pango-basic-fc.so  0xffffe410 in ??
[03:00] <Kamion> Mithrandir: ok
[03:00] <thom> seb128: wait a second :-)
[03:01] <thom> ok
[03:01] <thom> lets see what happens
[03:02] <Kamion> Mithrandir: 32-bit gdb needed too?
[03:03] <thom> seb128: new bt up
[03:03] <seb128> cool, thanks
[03:03] <Mithrandir> Kamion: I don't know.
[03:04] <Kamion> argh, no libreadline in ia32-libs
[03:04] <thom> seb128: i have that gdb session open if you need anything
[03:05] <seb128> thom: no real idea on it for the moment, no, thanks
[03:05] <thom> k
[03:06] <seb128> thom: what keybinding are you using to switch workspaces ?
[03:06] <zul> most likely :)
[03:06] <Mithrandir> fabbione: you can reassign it further to gtk
[03:06] <thom> seb128: ctrl+alt+{left,right} arrow
[03:06] <fabbione> i need to find something else than GTK
[03:07] <seb128> thom: ok, definitively working here :/
[03:07] <thom> fabbione: firefox
[03:07] <fabbione> thom: RIGHT!
[03:07] <thom> i just got my "all bugs but firefox" query sorted, so i don't care ;-)
[03:07] <fabbione> Kamion: if grub doesn't work.. it's a firefox problem..
[03:07] <Kamion> it makes no sense to me, grub hasn't changed
[03:08] <fabbione> Kamion: when you try to run grub, does anything show up in dmesg?
[03:08] <fabbione> like I/O error related to the hardware...
[03:08] <Kamion> Jan 24 14:00:24 localhost kernel: grub[21053] : segfault at 00000000555bcb30 rip
[03:08] <Kamion> 00000000555bcb30 rsp 00000000555bc9fc error 15
[03:09] <Kamion> nothing else that I can see
[03:09] <fabbione> Kamion: is it writing the boot record on a plain disk or is it like a raid of somekind?
[03:10] <Mithrandir> Kamion: that's just a normal segfault, which the amd64 kernel logs per default
[03:10] <Kamion> ordinary partition, no funkiness at all
[03:10] <Kamion> like I say it's worked before
[03:10] <Kamion> a lot
[03:10] <Mithrandir> weird.
[03:10] <fabbione> i know lilo crashes if i try to write a mbr and one of the disks in the raid is not spinning...
[03:10] <Mithrandir> I can test on a couple of boxes more.
[03:10] <Kamion> it's one of my primary test systems, I've been using it since before warty with complete success
[03:10] <Mithrandir> M-t
[03:11] <fabbione> Kamion: what about trying to use an old kernel and see immediatly that i am at fault for some obscure reasons? :P
[03:11] <Mithrandir> Kamion: what kind of hw do you have in the box?
[03:11] <Kamion> fabbione: I would if I could actually boot anything else
[03:11] <fabbione> Kamion: a warty install?
[03:12] <Kamion> well I don't have a functional grub :P
[03:12] <fabbione> Kamion: but you can still boot from CD
[03:12] <fabbione> can't you?
[03:12] <Kamion> I'll fish out a warty/amd64 CD in a minute
[03:12] <fabbione> or pxe
[03:12] <Kamion> Mithrandir: via
[03:12] <fabbione> i need to go and renew the vaccination from Brazil
[03:12] <fabbione> later guys
[03:12] <Mithrandir> Kamion: same as I have -- EpoX 8HDA3+ is the mobo.
[03:15] <seb128> thom: ok, I get the crash in a flexiserver ... I'm away for a moment and work on that when I get back, thanks for the help
[03:16] <thom> k, cool
[03:17] <tritium> this apparent metacity bug makes me again think we need something like apt-listbugs working with ubuntu's bugzilla
[03:19] <Kamion> apt-listbugs is pretty bogus in Debian though; lack of version tracking makes it difficult for users to see what bugs are in their version, and the upshot is that we end up with a lot of confused users thinking that stuff is fatally buggy when it really isn't
[03:19] <Kamion> fabbione: chrooting from a warty/amd64 CD works fine
[03:19] <Kamion> I therefore conclude that it's a kernel bug :P
[03:20] <Kamion> fabbione: oh, note that I saw the segfault while chrooted into a Debian amd64 system too
[03:23] <fabbione> Kamion: we have the same patch sets. so i think the problem is upstream, if you and Mithrandir can verify you are using the same hardware and what drivers (blabla) i can check if there is something on bk
[03:23] <fabbione> i need to leave now.. i will be back either later or tomorrow
[03:24] <tritium> Kamion, you're right about apt-listbugs, but a similar tool merits some consideration
[03:26] <trey3> Someone want to add something about the metacity bug to user channel topic please?
[03:35] <SteveA> fabbione: i've booted into the kernel you made
[03:37] <SteveA> when I plug a usb BT adapter into the machine, i get a bunch of spew in /var/log/messages and it maps io ports and loads useful hci stuff
[03:37] <SteveA> when i insert the CF BT card in questions, nothing extra appears in /var/log/messages 
[03:38] <SteveA> fabbione: anything you want me to try out before i go back to standard hoary kernel?
[03:47] <Kamion> fabbione: *chrooted* into a Debian amd64 system> Debian kernel not relevant.
[03:48] <daniels> Mithrandir: heh :)
[03:50] <Mithrandir> (not that I speak spanish, but I can imagine the destruction)
[03:50] <Mithrandir> Kamion: what kernel can you reproduce it with?
[03:50] <Mithrandir> Linux golem 2.6.10-2-amd64-k8 #1 Wed Jan 19 17:21:54 UTC 2005 x86_64 GNU/Linux
[03:54] <jdub> haha: "The behavior itself isn't really a bug though, is it? The bug is not having a GUI to control the behavior." -- http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5763
[03:54] <Kamion> Mithrandir: kernel-image-2.6.10-2-amd64-generic-di version 2.6.10-10 on this here live CD
[03:56] <Treenaks> jdub: try unchecking the "per window" stuff in the gnome keyboard layout manager app
[03:56] <Mithrandir> Kamion: and that segfaults?
[03:56] <Treenaks> jdub: that "fixes" it for me
[03:56] <Kamion> Mithrandir: yes
[03:57] <Treenaks> jdub: ("separate group for each window")
[03:57] <Mithrandir> Kamion: weird; try with a non-di and k8?
[03:58] <Kamion> Mithrandir: I'm going to iterate; will take a while
[03:58] <Kamion> Mithrandir: what package version is yours?
[03:59] <Mithrandir> linux-image-2.6.10-2-amd64-k8                                         2.6.10-10
[03:59] <daniels> Treenaks: you're fucking shitting me
[03:59] <Kamion> Mithrandir: hmm
[03:59] <daniels> that is the most ludicrously ridiculous thing.  ever.
[04:00] <Treenaks> daniels: well, it does something to remembering per-window state..
[04:00] <Mithrandir> Treenaks: not here.
[04:00] <daniels> that is absolute crack
[04:00] <Mithrandir> Treenaks: but I'm using openbox.
[04:00] <Treenaks> daniels: must be some other part of my settings then
[04:01] <Treenaks> daniels: but if I turn that flag on (per-window groups), all "lock" states are remembered per-window..
[04:01] <Treenaks> not just the group
[04:01] <Mithrandir> Treenaks: I can reproduce it regardless of per-window groups.
[04:01] <daniels> EZ GTK BOOG
[04:01] <Treenaks> Mithrandir: then it's somthing else
[04:01] <daniels> Mithrandir: turning per-window groups off fixes it for me also
[04:01] <jdub> that's insane
[04:02] <daniels> Mithrandir: maybe gnome-keyboard-applet or whatever fails to set it when not in gnome?
[04:02] <Mithrandir> daniels: I'm using gnome, but I'm not using metacity.
[04:02] <daniels> hm
[04:02] <Mithrandir> and it certainly manages to set such stuff as keyboard repeat rate.
[04:03] <daniels> bong
[04:04] <pitti> Kamion: I now created two scripts install-language-locales and remove-language-locales
[04:04] <pitti> Kamion: I think I rather stuff them into 'locale' instead of duplicating them into all lang packs, right?
[04:04] <pitti> Kamion: s/locale/locales/
[04:06] <Kamion> yeah
[04:07] <Kamion> pitti: base-config should install language packs now
[04:07] <pitti> cool
[04:07] <sivang> Kamion: yay!
[04:12] <thom> Mithrandir: you're a chunderbird user, right?
[04:13] <Mithrandir> yes
[04:13] <thom> can you reproduce #4249?
[04:15] <tritium> thom, I just swiched my preferred mail app to thunderbird, and I do get a new Compose window
[04:16] <thom> can you comment it works for you then, please?
[04:16] <Mithrandir> thom: worksforme.
[04:17] <tritium> curious - if thunderbird is already open, however, it opens the profile chooser
[04:17] <tritium> rather than a new compose window
[04:18] <Mithrandir> yeah, that's a tb bug
[04:18] <thom> ok, cool
[04:18] <thom> thanks guys
[04:19] <tritium> sure
[04:19] <Kamion> upgrading from linux-image-2.6.10-2-amd64-generic 2.6.10-9 to 2.6.10-10 
[04:19] <Kamion> is enough to trigger that bug
[04:20] <seb128> daniels: here ?
[04:20] <Mithrandir> Kamion: but it's not in -k8?
[04:20] <Kamion> Mithrandir: haven't tried yet
[04:20] <Kamion> about to
[04:20] <Mithrandir> ook
[04:20] <daniels> seb128: wassup
[04:21] <seb128> daniels: kind of bug flooded a lot, do you have time to figure what wrong with the xkb stuff ? 
[04:22] <daniels> seb128: did you upload a new gnome-keyboard-manager or whatever lately?
[04:22] <seb128> daniels: gnome-applets and control-center handle the xkb stuff and both have had a lot of changes recently
[04:22] <rcaskey_> I've got a list of directories and I'm looking for a way to match up the device icon with the directory, what's the best way to go about doing that with python?
[04:22] <trey3> Treenaks, possible metacity bug workaround (keyboard > layouts > uncheck "Seperate group for each window") didn't stop occurances here... (told I should say something)
[04:22] <daniels> seb128: bbbbbbbllllllllleeeeeeeeggggggghhhhhhhh
[04:23] <daniels> seb128: sort of, but especially wednesday's a holiday, won't get to it until thursday/friday myself
[04:24] <seb128> daniels: svu upstream is quite responsive and know that code, if you have a good description of the problem that's probably enough
[04:24] <seb128> daniels: ie: a way to reproduce and an idea of what's wrong ... so I can ping him with it
[04:24] <jdub> seb128: svu is responsive because he's paid by the russian mafia. that's not the kind of responsive we want to get involved with. :)
[04:24] <seb128> jdub: ahahah :)
[04:25] <seb128> (bah daniels probably doesn't fear the mafia :p)
[04:25] <jdub> that's because he's a rentboy
[04:26] <daniels> seb128: yeah, I'll have a chat to svu if you like
[04:26] <daniels> jdub: i am not thom
[04:28] <rcaskey_> is there a channel that would be a good choice for hal/python questiosn?
[04:28] <daniels> rcaskey_: #freedesktop
[04:29] <rcaskey_> thanks
[04:33] <Kamion> Mithrandir: segfault with -k8 too
[04:33] <Mithrandir> Kamion: weird, I can't reproduce that.
[04:34] <seb128> daniels: thanks
[04:34] <daniels> seb128: no worries
[04:34] <daniels> seb128: tell me when you aren't drowning in bugs, and I'll reassign you some more ;)
[04:35] <seb128> ah ah
[04:36] <thom> daniels: stop distracting him from fixing metacity
[04:36] <daniels> seb128: #1842 and #4343 are clearly gnome bugs
[04:36] <seb128> I've 'only' got 130 mails in my "my bugs" box this WE :p
[04:36] <daniels> thom: worksforme (i haven't dist-upgraded today)
[04:36] <zul> i would say you guys are swamped :)
[04:37] <seb128> daniels: everything is gnome bug, I know :p
[04:37] <thom> it's an experience
[04:37] <daniels> thom: i hear good things about phluid
[04:38] <mjg59> daniels: Oh, I spoke to benh - he thinks it might need more doing than just setting the device to D3
[04:38] <thom> daniels: phluid is k-l33t
[04:38] <daniels> seb128: it looks like all this stuff can be traced back to new svu crack, which is kind of a relief for me
[04:38] <daniels> mjg59: oh?
[04:38] <mjg59> It seems that what the chip does when it's put into D3 depends on the register state beforehand
[04:38] <daniels> christing shit
[04:38] <mjg59> He's got some whacked-out shit that ATI told him to do, and no real idea what it's doing
[04:38] <seb128> daniels: yeah, for me too
[04:39] <no0tic> seb128: metacity bug?
[04:39] <seb128> daniels: have you read his blog ?
[04:39] <mjg59> So I need to get my hands on a T42 again. I might be able to get one for a bit next week.
[04:39] <daniels> mjg59: unfortunately the only Mobility documentation I have around is M6; all my other spec sheets are for desktop chipsets
[04:39] <seb128> no0tic: nothing I can real do about it, I've pinged upstreams with a full bt (thanks thom), downgrade if needed of wait for a fix (that's a devel branch that happens...)
[04:40] <daniels> seb128: anything in particular?
[04:40] <mjg59> daniels: Worst case, I just rip all the suspend code out of radeonfb
[04:40] <seb128> daniels: IIRC he described all the xkb changes in his blog
[04:40] <no0tic> seb128: can you give me some hints on how to downgrade?
[04:41] <seb128> no0tic: get a old deb (perhaps in /var/cache/apt/archives/) and dpkg -i
[04:41] <no0tic> seb128: I've only the new deb in there
[04:41] <no0tic> seb128: :(
[04:41] <seb128> ok, so find somebody with the previous deb
[04:42] <no0tic> seb128: I'm feeling lucky ;)
[04:42] <seb128> no0tic: I'm sorry but I don't have any obvious fix atm, don't use hoary if you don't want to face some issues ...
[04:43] <no0tic> seb128: I like these issues :)
[04:44] <tritium> no0tic, if the previous version was 2.9.3-0, I can get you the old .debs
[04:44] <tritium> it was, I just checked the changelogs
[04:44] <no0tic> tritium: thanks!
[04:45] <tritium> hold on, I'll put them on a website for you
[04:45] <tritium> they're out of the pool already, I guess?
[04:45] <no0tic> tritium: you're fantastic!
[04:46] <tritium> no0tic, actually - looks like they're still in the pool
[04:46] <tritium> http://ftp.cs.umn.edu/pub/ubuntu/pool/main/m/metacity/
[04:46] <tritium> at least on some mirrors
[04:47] <no0tic> tritium: pool dir doesn't exist
[04:47] <tritium> no0tic, I'm browsing it right now
[04:48] <Kamion> old debs> morgue.ubuntu.com
[04:48] <Kamion> you need to know when the package was removed
[04:48] <tritium> thanks, Kamion 
[04:49] <no0tic> thanks Kamion 
[04:51] <trey3> Kamion, 2.9.3 is still in repo...
[04:51] <trey3> (working fine with rest of 2.9.5)
[04:51] <tritium> no0tic, did you find it?
[04:53] <no0tic> tritium: no
[04:55] <pitti> amu: no worries, if all the konversation CVEs were handled, then it's okay. I just wanted to know whether they were handled at all :-)
[04:55] <trey3> ps, just to confirm (cuz I did it) ... metacity is issue... libmetacity 2.9.5 is still installed, but issue is gone...
[05:03] <no0tic> solved
[05:04] <Kamion> trey3: I didn't check, merely noting a useful resource
[05:05] <srbaker> is it possible to completely disable OSS in warty?
[05:08] <OddAbe19> not to be rude or interupt or anything... but there are plenty of complaints in the Hoary forum about the Numlock key turning on and off (application based), is this going to be fixed for the hoary release?
[05:08] <OddAbe19> or taken away would probably be a proper term
[05:08] <daniels> OddAbe19: yes, but this is probably more appropriate for #ubuntu
[05:09] <daniels> in the meantime, desktop->preferences->keyboard preferences->layouts->separate group for each window being unchecked seems to fix it
[05:09] <OddAbe19> i understand, i was just interested in hearing it from developers though, to besure
[05:09] <OddAbe19> thanks daniels
[05:09] <daniels> developers lurk in #ubuntu too :)
[05:10] <OddAbe19> thanks again
[05:10] <Kamion> there are many bugs in hoary which will be fixed for release. :-)
[05:10] <OddAbe19> i know that... it just seemed to be more of a feature
[05:10] <daniels> a very, very, very misguided feature
[05:10] <OddAbe19> that got a few people confused
[05:10] <OddAbe19> lol
[05:11] <thom> and there it goes
[05:12] <trey3> thom, that soo better be amd64 or something... I'll cry if firefox on i386 is broken  :(
[05:12] <daniels> thom: boom
[05:15] <thom> trey3: nah, it's just libpr0n blowing up on a corrupt png
[05:16] <trey3> thom, thats bad too damnit  :(   can't sleep out pr0n  :o
[05:16] <thom> trey3: libpr0n is mozilla's image rendering  library, so yes it's bad
[05:17] <trey3> ahh... thats a real library name?
[05:17] <trey3> haha  *goes back to #ubuntu quietly*
[05:19] <lamont_r> pitti: buildds are stripping translations
[05:19] <ericf> Problem: `gksudo ls & gksudo ls & gksudo` makes my system hang... At least X. I kill it in tty1, problem solved. Weird command of course, but... double/triple clicking the update-notifier applet causes a similar situation. Maybe gksudo should prevent this interfering with itself?
[05:19] <lamont_r> now I just need to get the aggregator written..
[05:19] <jdub> thom: mind if i upload a gecko-cil package that depends on firefox instead of mozilla?
[05:23] <thom> jdub: gfi
[05:24] <jdub> get f*cked idiot? thanks a lot!
[05:24] <thom> heh
[05:24] <jdub> done
[05:24] <thom> if you wanna read it that way go for it :P
[05:24] <jdub> that'll make beagle happier when it turns up
[05:24] <thom> now fix metacity 
[05:24] <jdub> i'm totally not going anywhere near metacity ;)
[05:25] <thom> before i decide i like pwm enough not to switch back
[05:25] <lamont_r> thom: what did metacity do now, besides exist?
[05:26] <thom> lamont_r: don't upgrade today if you want to ahve a working system
[05:26] <lamont_r> thom: right
[05:26] <thom> lamont_r: crashes when you switch window or workspace
[05:26] <lamont_r> lol
[05:27] <mjg59> daniels: Thanks for your help - I think I have a pretty good idea how to approach this now
[05:27] <daniels> mjg59: no worries, dude :)
[05:27] <trey3> jdub, chicken  >: |
[05:27] <Kamion> trey3: well volunteered to fix it
[05:28] <trey3> jdub, @ 'i'm totally not going anywhere near metacity ;)'
[05:28] <lamont_r> does that mean that grabbing a livecd today is also a bad idea?
[05:29] <jdub> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/beta/
[05:30] <daniels> nice interface
[05:31] <Kamion> seems to be just a bit of a redesign; what's so much better?
[05:31] <daniels> Kamion: very clean to look at
[05:34] <jdub> small, incremental improvements to bugzilla tend to make a big difference ;)
[05:35] <haggai> elmo: please can you allow python2.4-bsddb3 into universe
[05:35] <thom> thom     13440  0.7  0.0      0     0 pts/2    Zl   16:31   0:01 [firefox-bin]  <defunct>
[05:35] <thom> thanks, firefox
[05:36] <sivang> jdub: feh, that looks neat.
[05:36] <sivang> :)
[05:36] <sivang> it eases on the eyes..
[05:49] <pitti> lamont_r: nice! But http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/translations is still 404 ??
[05:50] <lamont_r> pitti: like I said - the build's are stripping.  today is 'write the aggregator' day
[05:50] <lamont_r> (the thing that aggregates 12 buildd's into that url.
[05:50] <pitti> aha
[05:58] <elmo> haggai: huh?
[06:00] <lamont_r> elmo: you saw that partimage should be PaS on amd64 (and removed from the archive)?
[06:00] <lamont_r> 1
[06:00] <elmo> lamont: err, no?
[06:01] <lamont_r> elmo: yeah - it's PaS on all 64-bit arch in debian - I added amd64 last week or so
[06:01] <lamont_r> it's belief that sizeof(long)==4 is rather ubiquitous.
[06:02] <lamont_r> so when you run partimage on amd64, it dies with a complaint that sizeof(DWORD) !=4, built with incompatible gcc or some such
[06:03] <lamont_r> then again, given the archive/release model, it doesn't _really_ need to be removed from the archive... it can live on broken. :-)
[06:04] <srbaker> muwahaha.  it wouldn't be a work day if someone wasn't bitching about my choice of music
[06:05] <mdz> morning
[06:05] <daniels> yo mdz
[06:05] <tseng> odd, latest blam binary is 1.4.1, but source is 1.6.0
[06:05] <elmo> lamont: is it rdepend clean?
[06:06] <haggai> elmo: I uploaded python-bsddb3 fixed to build on python-2.4 but heard nothing and assumed it was because of the new package name.  Is there no evidence of it arriving?
[06:07] <lamont_r> elmo: dunno, didn't look at that
[06:07] <lamont_r> it's in universe in anycase
[06:08] <elmo> Rejected: no source found for python-bsddb3 3.3.0-6ubuntu1 (python-bsddb3-doc_3.3.0-6ubuntu1_i386.deb).
[06:08] <elmo> Rejected: binary uploads are not allowed - please only upload source.
[06:08] <elmo> Rejected: python-bsddb3_3.3.0-6ubuntu1_i386.changes: upload is signed by 0xBE88B4B38D1F6639580FCCEE7B199D131997E7CF but is not i
[06:08] <elmo> n the Binary Uploads keyring.
[06:08] <haggai> elmo: gah sorry.
[06:09] <Kamion> hm, it looks to me as if grub is segfaulting when it tries to call disk_read_savesect_func(), which is part of install_func()
[06:10] <Kamion> the only reason I can think of for that to happen on a kernel upgrade is that the kernel is scribbling over user memory
[06:10] <seb128> thom: ?
[06:12] <Kamion> grub does this weird thing with functions defined inside other functions that I don't understand
[06:14] <daniels> with the unichrome and i810 drivers coming entirely from HEAD of their respective development, we're still managing to keep our patchset against 6.8.2 under 100,000 lines
[06:15] <daniels> (of about 90,000 lines, about 50,000 is patches from X.Org HEAD, unichrome.sf.net HEAD, and linuxwacom.sf.net)
[06:17] <thom> seb128: sup?
[06:19] <seb128> thom: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=36473&action=view
[06:19] <seb128> thom: should fix the metacity crasher ... feedback welcome
[06:22] <thom> seb128: righto, will look in a second
[06:22] <seb128> thom: don't bother, I'll update it in the archive, that works here
[06:23] <thom> fair enough
[06:26] <tritium> thanks seb128
[06:28] <seb128> tritium: np
[06:29] <mdz> thom: did you get my mail about fixing the text on bugzilla.ubuntu.com?
[06:32] <thom> mdz: i saw your mail, and asked the MOTU folk for some suggested text, not seen a response yet
[06:32] <elmo> mdz: shall I file the rest of the uninstallablle bugs?  I stopped after doing two
[06:33] <mdz> elmo: how many are there?
[06:33] <mdz> thom: hmm.  options I see are: create a new Bugzilla product (ugly, but easy), use a mailing list, or start using Malone
[06:33] <elmo> mdz: at least 10, related to the lang pack stuff
[06:34] <mdz> haggai, ogra, etc.: would it be useful to have a mailing list specifically for MOTU stuff?
[06:34] <mdz> elmo: yeah, sure
[06:34] <Kamion> do we want to start putting language packs onto the CD?
[06:34] <mdz> at this point, it would probably be nice to start mailing diffs of britney output to ubuntu-devel
[06:35] <mdz> since stuff needs to be installable
[06:35] <haggai> mdz: yeah, might be a good iodea
[06:35] <elmo> you'll pick  up temporary buildd stuff, if you do that, tho
[06:35] <elmo> less if you only do it once a day or so, I guess
[06:35] <mdz> ideally we would get notified if something stays uninstallable for a day or something, but that sounds like work
[06:37] <jdub> mdz: can we keep motu on -devel until there's enough to push it off?
[06:38] <mdz> I suppose
[06:38] <mdz> there is a significant amount of stuff at this point where we need an "answer" from the MOTU team on something, though
[06:38] <mdz> and a dedicated mailing list is better for that kind of thing
[06:38] <haggai> yes I agree
[06:38] <jdub> mdz: as in, "can we get blah updated", or...?
[06:40] <mdz> jdub: as in, "how do you want to manage bug tracking for universe?"
[06:41] <mdz> what resources do you need, etc.
[06:41] <mdz> have to run, back later
[06:41] <jdub> now there's a question we're supposed to have an answer for :)
[06:42] <haggai> jdub: how are the kubuntu lists? brewing nicely?
[06:43] <jdub> haggai: will do tomorrow
[06:43] <haggai> thankx
[06:54] <thom> seb128: where's metacity?!
[06:54] <thom> ;-)
[06:55] <seb128> thom: upstream rolling a release, I don't want to patch to repackage the new version 10 mins after that :p
[06:55] <thom> slacker ;-)
[06:55] <seb128> thom: BTW I've i386 packages on alioth if you want :p
[07:01] <elmo> mdz: is there any chance of getting the bugzilla component list updated to match hoary or is that beyond our bugzilla-fu?
[07:04] <elmo> some of these mozilla lang packs depend on like 1.2 or 1.6 of mozilla
[07:11] <elmo> seb128: you going to fix openh323?
[07:12] <seb128> elmo: I didn't know that it was broken, under a pile of GNOME releases atm, but I'll check that
[07:13] <elmo> seb128: the pwlib sync broke it
[07:13] <elmo> I can just file a bug, in case someone who isn't playing one-man-gnome-army wants to fix it?
[07:14] <Treenaks> seb128: "one-man gnome army".. you need new business cards ;)
[07:14] <daniels> elmo: -uk vs -gb?
[07:14] <elmo> daniels: yeah
[07:15] <elmo> -ca vs godknowswhat too
[07:15] <zul> seb128: i attached a patch to the gnome-panel buglet for #5822
[07:16] <Kamion> maybe it'll magically disappear with the next kernel revision the same way it magically appeared with this one
[07:16] <elmo> daniels: do I need to whine at you about lrm?
[07:16] <seb128> daniels: don't bother I'll fix it
[07:17] <Kamion> elmo: I thought 2.6.9 was being multiversed
[07:17] <seb128> zul: I've get the mail thanks, I've pinged an upstream about it, will be fixed in the CVS today
[07:17] <daniels> elmo: you're going to say something involving the words nvidia_minor, ati_minor, etc, aren't you?
[07:17] <daniels> seb128: fix which?
[07:17] <zul> seb128: sounds good
[07:17] <elmo> daniels: good guess
[07:17] <daniels> elmo: head -> desk
[07:17] <Kamion> oh, that l-r-m
[07:17] <seb128> daniels: s/daniels/elmo/
[07:18] <elmo> seb128: k
[07:18] <daniels> seb128: i'd need to get a haircut
[07:18] <daniels> well, grow my hair
[07:18] <daniels> and lose about 90% of my wardrobe
[07:18] <seb128> :)
[07:19] <elmo> Kamion: is there any reason to not just drop it?
[07:20] <Kamion> elmo: don't care; if we drop it we should probably drop linux-source-2.6.9 too
[07:20] <elmo> mdz: ?
[07:22] <daniels> elmo: there you go
[07:22] <elmo> daniels: seriously, I think that needs fixed permanently
[07:22] <daniels> elmo: for bonus points, hack katie to remember the last *_minor and write a new girl to cause a fist to leap out of my monitor and beat the crap out of me when I forget
[07:22] <elmo> at least to break at source-build time
[07:22] <daniels> elmo: yes.  ideas?
[07:22] <elmo> I've no idea - I don't want to look at the source package to see why it's doing that :)
[07:23] <elmo> but like you said, couldn't you record the last *_minor in a file and just abort if it hasn't been manually updated?
[07:23] <daniels> well, fglrx and nvidia have their own versions
[07:23] <daniels> and in the case of nvidia-glx, at least, we have namespace collision
[07:23] <daniels> but knowing the major versions is *exceedingly* useful, not to mention more or less necessary for sane dependencies
[07:23] <daniels> mmm, I suppose that's true
[07:24] <daniels> or at least having to touch YES-I-HAVE-BUMPED-THE-REVISIONS to source-build, and always cleaning that file
[07:26] <Kamion> can't it work out the ubuntuN from the source version?
[07:26] <daniels> Kamion: no
[07:26] <Kamion> i.e. generate N based on the -M at the end
[07:26] <Kamion> why not?
[07:27] <daniels> because we revved nvidia to 1.0.6629 at l-r-m 2.6.8.1
[07:27] <Kamion> every time we increment -M, we also bump ubuntuN by the same amount
[07:27] <Kamion> so?
[07:27] <Kamion> I'm not saying that the first part should be autogenerated
[07:27] <daniels> oh, hm
[07:27] <daniels> but then you fall down with new upstream versions, no?
[07:27] <Kamion> new upstreams would require something to be manually tweaked
[07:27] <daniels> e.g. if we get a new version of nvidia-glx, the first release of that upstream version is 1.0.6743-0ubuntu237
[07:28] <daniels> mmm, ok.  interesting idea.
[07:28] <daniels> bonus points if you can come up with a patch while I'm asleep :)
[07:28] <Kamion> either no problem, or you have REVISION-236 as ubuntuN
[07:28] <Kamion> IIRC gcc-defaults has something like that
[07:29] <Kamion> # gcc-defaults 1.19 is the first version with 3.3.5 support.
[07:29] <Kamion> REL_NO_335      := $(shell expr $(REL_NO) - 18)
[07:35] <elmo> Kamion: what do you do on little WRT bittorrent-ing?  and how much would care if it moved to a new host?
[08:00] <elmo> Kamion: oh,and you might like to trash 'ftp.bak' at some point
[08:18] <Kamion> elmo: I don't do anything WRT bittorrenting, I sort of assume somebody else will take care of it at some point :-/
[08:18] <Kamion> elmo: yeah, waiting 'til I get round to reviewing/committing the anonftpsync changes
[08:19] <elmo> Kamion: err, nothing at all??
[08:20] <Kamion> elmo: I don't generate .torrents for dailies any more, since they weren't all that useful; for releases I pester thom
[08:20] <thom> and then i cry
[08:21] <elmo> sweet
[08:21] <elmo> well, we can't do torrents for dailies anymore anyway, since torrent's moving to a machine without space for them
[08:21] <elmo> so thom only gets to cry at/near release time ;-)
[08:22] <thom> excellent
[08:23] <thom> any more than that and the floods of tears would reach leeds
[08:23] <Mithrandir> thom: we could hook you up to a hydropower plant
[08:23] <thom> heh
[08:51] <pitti> Hi sivang
[08:51] <pitti> sivang: I had to reboot my server (new kernel), sorry for the lack of notice
[08:51] <sivang> pitti: no prob, when did this happen?
[08:53] <pitti> sivang: about two hours ago
[08:54] <sivang> pitti: oj
[08:54] <sivang> pitti: ok
[09:34] <seb128> elmo: around ?
[09:35] <elmo> seb128: yah
[09:35] <seb128> elmo: do you know what's going on with metacity 2.9.8 ?
[09:36] <seb128> it's built for 2 hours according to the logs and not in the archive
[09:36] <elmo>   metacity | 1:2.9.8-0ubuntu1 |         hoary | source, amd64, i386, ia64, powerpc
[09:36] <elmo> ?
[09:36] <seb128> http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/m/metacity/ doesn't list it here
[09:36] <elmo> it's on mirnyy
[09:36] <elmo> sigh, auckland is so hosed
[09:37] <seb128> in fact the current 2.9.5 "just crashes" for many people, so would be nice to get the update
[09:37] <seb128> oh ok, I was looking in archive ... I thought it was the first place to get the debs
[09:37] <seb128> thanks
[09:37] <elmo> both mirnyy and auckland get synced at the same time
[09:38] <elmo> the problem is auckland is at load 40 24/7 atm, I'm in the process of dumping services off there as fast as I can to try and help
[09:38] <seb128> ok
[09:40] <seb128> elmo: and glib2.0 2.6.1-3 sync (dunno if that's already on the mirrors) please
[09:49] <Simira> seb128: after this yesterdays update, the Gnome-problem has reappeared. Just now it seems like the menus shows up, only it takes incredibly long time
[09:49] <seb128> Simira: which one ?
[09:50] <seb128> Simira: there is like 400 GNOME problems in bugzilla
[09:50] <Treenaks> seb128: itsm the panel-doesn't-fill one
[09:50] <seb128> Treenaks: itsm ?
[09:51] <Treenaks> I think she means
[09:51] <seb128> Treenaks: the nautilus/vfs/panel lock ?
[09:51] <Treenaks> seb128: might be?
[09:51] <ogra> seb128: pick the right one and win a prize ;-P
[09:51] <elmo>  20:51:24 up 10 days,  9:03,  1 user,  load average: 225.56, 227.69, 226.11
[09:51] <elmo> ok, so maybe not 40
[09:51] <ogra> woah
[09:51] <seb128> Treenaks: I really hope it's not, gnomevfs is patched for this for a few days and nobody complained about it since
[09:51] <Treenaks> seb128: hm ok
[09:51] <seb128> Treenaks: if this patch doesn't work :/
[09:51] <Treenaks> seb128: now everyone's complaining about metacity? :)P
[09:52] <seb128> elmo: urg
[09:52] <seb128> Treenaks: yep :p
[09:54] <Simira> seb128: the Gnome panel won't start problem ;p
[09:55] <seb128> Simira: nautilus too ?
[09:55] <seb128> you are uptodate ?
[09:55] <trey3> seb128, panel not dieing bug is fixed too today?
[09:56] <Simira> seb128: yes
[09:56] <seb128> Simira: nautilus too ?
[09:57] <seb128> oh damn, if this is the lock in gnomevfs not fixed :(((((((
[10:08] <tritium> what's this about metacity 2.9.8?
[10:08] <tritium> I thought the fix was in 2.9.5-0ubuntu2
[10:09] <trey3> tritium, knew upstream version for RC1
[10:09] <trey3> tritium, read link in bug report
[10:09] <tritium> all right
[10:33] <pitti> Hi dilinger!
[10:33] <pitti> how are you?
[10:33] <dilinger> hi :)
[10:33] <dilinger> good, you?
[10:34] <pitti> same :-)
[10:37] <elmo> seb128: auckland's back and up2date, FWIW
[10:41] <seb128> elmo: cool, thanks
[10:41] <seb128> elmo: BTW have you synced glib2.0 ?
[10:42] <jdz_> seb128: some of the gnome applets don't become transparent.  are these bugs?
[10:42] <seb128> yep
[10:44] <jdz_> seb128: upstream?
[10:45] <seb128> sure
[10:45] <seb128> the distro only package
[10:45] <seb128> hum, not only, but most of the code is from upstreams I mean
[10:55] <elmo> seb128: it hasn't hit ftp.uk yet, I'll sync it when it does
[10:56] <seb128> ok, thanks
[10:56] <elmo> uh, nm, it has.. done
[10:57] <seb128> cool :)
[10:58] <seb128> elmo: could you sync easytag too ?
[10:58] <elmo> done
[10:58] <seb128> thanks
[11:23] <mdz> elmo: ?
[11:23] <mdz> elmo: re: bugzilla, I'm planning to update the component list today
[11:23] <sladen> tritium: ping
[11:23] <dilinger> ubuntu strips out kernel firmware, same as debian, right?
[11:24] <sladen> dilinger: and sticks it in a separate 'restricted modules' package
[11:24] <thom> mdz: amd64 live cd worked like a charm barring the obvious Xorg not being able to probe screen res, which daniel is working on AIUI
[11:25] <dilinger> sladen: is the firmware in userspace, or is it compiled into the kernel modules?
[11:25] <mdz> thom: I had the same problem, but my KVM seems to prevent DDC from working, so it always does that
[11:25] <mdz> dilinger: no, we ship firmware with our kernel
[11:26] <mdz> dilinger: not built in, but in the same package, loaded by hotplug
[11:26] <thom> mdz: ddcprobe uses real mode iirc; i ended up having to stub it ages ago so we could build ddcprobe on amd64 at all
[11:26] <dilinger> mdz: alright
[11:30] <sladen> dilinger: yup.  I defer to fabbione/mdz.  They actually know what they're talking about
[11:31] <dilinger> heh
[11:42] <tseng> jdub: ping. didnt mean to put you off about tomboy, but ive realized it has very poor QA and needs some fixing.. i was also looking at blam, new version uses gecko-sharp
[11:43] <tseng> jdub: you just uploaded gecko-sharp to build againt firefox, blam needs a bump to build-dep mozilla-firefox-dev as well
[11:43] <tseng> jdub: i can send you the source for that if youd like.
[11:45] <ajmitch> dilinger: do you know if anyone else is working on getting php5 debs?
[11:46] <thom> infinity is planning to look at doing it at some point in the not too distant, so he was saying earlier
[11:46] <ajmitch> alright
[11:46] <dilinger> yea, i thought infinity already did some work on them
[11:47] <ajmitch> I'm just looking at the debs on dotdeb.org, they need a lot of work if they were to be used
[11:47] <thom> are they the yada afflicted ones?
[11:47] <ajmitch> not sure, but debian/rules still has dh_make comments 
[11:47] <dilinger> i no longer use php, so it's not any sort of priority for me
[11:48] <ajmitch> I'm going to need php5 for a server soon, so I thought I'd take a look
[11:48] <thom> dilinger: are you jobless now or doing your notice period?
[11:49] <dilinger> i've got 4 more days left (after today)
[11:50] <ajmitch> bbl, lunch
[11:56] <mjg59> sladen: I've got a lead on the Thinkpad power consumption issues
[11:56] <dilinger> mjg59: is this the sleep issue?
[11:57] <elmo> mdz: cool, thanks.  the other thing was 2.6.9; are we planning to support it in hoary?
[11:57] <elmo> or rather, it's already in universe, but could we just drop it entirely?
[11:57] <mjg59> dilinger: Yeah, using too much power while asleep
[11:58] <mjg59> There's some registers that need setting to make it actually shut itself down
[11:58] <mdz> elmo: definitely not going to support it, if fabbione is OK with dropping it entirely, then let's do it
[11:58] <elmo> ok, will ask
[11:58] <dilinger> yep.  is there a spec sheet available for the card?
[11:59] <mjg59> dilinger: Nope.
[11:59] <dilinger> ah.  fun.
[11:59] <mjg59> Not publically, at least
[11:59] <mjg59> There's actually code in radeonfb to do this, but (a) that only works on PPC at the moment, and (b) we don't want to require people to use radeonfb
[11:59] <mjg59> So I need to write a small driver...