[04:19] <enrico> good morning!
[04:21] <sm> morning enrico
[04:21] <enrico> morning sm
[04:21] <sivang> enrico: morning
[04:22] <enrico> Thanks for fixing the AllPages thing.  I've always been wondering what was the purpose of that page :)
[04:24] <sm> oh good
[04:24] <sm> it always annoyed me
[04:27] <enrico> I wonder how did it get there in the first place
[04:28] <enrico> I've never done anything about it because I thought there was a reason
[05:07] <sivang> enrico: what's up?
[06:12] <enrico> sivang: hello!
[06:13] <sivang> enrico: wow, that was slow! ;-)
[06:15] <enrico> I was having lunch :)
[06:22] <sm> night all
[06:22] <enrico> sm: night!
[07:40] <sivang> enrico: was it any good?
[07:42] <enrico> burp!  YES!
[07:42] <enrico> let's see if I can spell it
[07:42] <enrico> we started with the rice bowl, which got some special pork sauce on top to make it interesting
[07:42] <enrico> then, we had some chicken with chili and cucumber, nicely flavored with some herb
[07:43] <enrico> really nice beef 
[07:43] <enrico> then dumplings with white wine vegetable (it's a special vegetable here: like the green wine vegetable, but white)
[07:43] <enrico> following, a really good hot-sour soup
[07:44] <enrico> and to finish, a sweet soup with sticky rice balls and dragon eyes
[07:44] <enrico> oh, and also red beans in the sweet soup
[07:46] <enrico> Frout: guava and carambola and apple-plums (or plum-apples)
[07:46] <enrico> s/frout/fruit/
[07:53] <sivang> ahhhhh
[07:53] <sivang> :)
[08:35] <Macbeth> Hey
[08:36] <Macbeth> I am having a problem configuring network settings for ubuntu on my inspiron 8000 laptop. If anyone's not busy, perhaps they could help an ubunu newbie :)
[08:44] <enrico> Uhm... the right channel for that is #ubuntu; if you ask here and you get an answer, then you must to write a wiki page about it :)
[08:45] <Macbeth> Oh, thanks for the info. That helps too
[08:45] <Macbeth> I'm sure i'd write a wiki page relaying the help I got
[08:45] <enrico> Cool!!
[08:46] <enrico> Have you tried asking #ubuntu already?
[08:46] <Macbeth> I am asking right now
[08:46] <Macbeth> they are saying "hmmm"
[08:47] <Macbeth> Speaking of wiki
[08:48] <Macbeth> I read somewhere that you should _NOT_ say "yes" to the question "do you want ubuntu to do automatic internet installation"
[08:48] <Macbeth> Well, i said yes. before reading that.
[08:49] <enrico> sivang: are you around?
[08:50] <sivang> enrico: yep
[08:50] <sivang> 'sup?
[08:54] <enrico> sivang: Macbeth is asking things that I don't know how to answer, but I suspect you do
[08:54] <enrico> sivang: and if we win this game, Macbeth will write a wiki page :)
[08:55] <Macbeth> The wiki page will say how to get networking to work if I hot-plugged my PC lan card into my laptop after i did the installation of ubuntu?
[09:00] <Macbeth> device manager says it is an unknown device. here are my card's drivers http://d-link.com/products/support.asp?pid=132&sec=0#drivers (but they are for windows)
[09:05] <Macbeth> http://support.dlink.com/faq/view.asp?prod_id=1226&question=DFE-690TXD
[09:05] <Macbeth> i found something
[04:07] <enrico> Does someone have a link to the Gnome User's Manual?
[04:13] <enrico> Anyone around?
[04:14] <enrico> I'm trying to understand if there is such a thing as the Gnome User's Manual or if it's just the collection of the documentation of the single applications
[04:14] <enrico> jdub: you're probably the only one awake and in the list that can know this
[04:14] <jdub> www.gnome.org/learn/
[04:16] <enrico> jdub: thanks a lot.  I'm writing an answer to Sean in the list, and I need to check things twice
[04:16] <jdub> i should read doc list, hey?
[04:17] <enrico> jdub: probably not, unless you want a headache
[04:17] <sivang> jdub: and a very strong one...;-/
[04:17] <jdub> heh
[04:17] <sivang> enrico: just read Sean's posts...Cannot cope with such bi amount of text!!!
[04:17] <sivang> (unless it's gtk code)
[04:18] <sivang> ;-)
[04:23] <enrico> It
[04:23] <enrico> It's not the text that is a problem, is the heat in the discussion
[04:23] <enrico> (to me)
[04:23] <enrico> I already have headaches in talking with the admins.  Having Sean shouting all the time doesn't really help me.
[04:24] <enrico> Oh, well, I'll be on an airplane the next two days anyway
[04:28] <ChrisH> enrico: Sounds you have long time not read debian-devel. :)
[04:28] <enrico> jdub: another question: if we work on vendor drops of appname/C/help, do we clash with the arch import the devels are working on?
[04:28] <enrico> that is, is that documentation also imported in hoary arch?
[04:28] <enrico> ChrisH: you're right, I haven't~
[04:29] <ChrisH> enrico: But it's true... I also needed a personal secretary to filter out important parts from -doc
[04:30] <ChrisH> enrico: Looks like everyone else is just too slow for him.
[04:33] <enrico> Ok, people.  Please someone check the last mail I sent to the list: it's short
[04:33] <enrico> If that's true, we solved everything
[04:34] <ChrisH> reading...
[04:35] <ChrisH> We solved the redundant work double-write problem with the vendor drops which in turn require that we have a 1.1.2 subversion archive. That one?
[04:36] <ChrisH> (from your report of the 23rd)
[04:40] <enrico> No: a reply to the "Canonical are you serious?"
[04:41] <enrico> I'll post a link to the archives
[04:41] <ChrisH> found it
[04:41] <enrico> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-January/001063.html
[04:41] <enrico> jdub: could you please have a read at http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-January/001063.html ?
[04:42] <enrico> jdub: if that is true, we solved all the problems
[04:42] <ChrisH> enrico: didn't 
[04:42] <enrico> ChrisH: didn't?
[04:43] <ChrisH> enrico: didn't Sean say that symlinks are mandatory for having any kind of vendor drops?
[04:43] <ChrisH> (the enter key was in the way :) )
[04:44] <enrico> AFAIK that's required to pull in the docs from all the applications, then merge everything together
[04:46] <enrico> But I may have gotten something wrong
[04:46] <ChrisH> I'm confused, too. I thought it would be complicated enough already with SVN.
[04:47] <sivang> I persoanlly don't have much problem to continue slow...take things one at the time,
[04:47] <ChrisH> If I had no idea of vendor drops and didn't feel like writing huge workarounds I had probably just linked to the gnome user's manual instead of branding/using it
[04:47] <sivang> let's even postpone stable docs for grumpy if canonical is busy with benefit bringing, more important stuff.
[04:47] <sivang> I don't mind.
[04:48] <enrico> ChrisH: the idea is that who wants to do it does it; the rest, can work on the QuickGuide (http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepQuickGuide) or packaging the documentation or something simple like that
[04:48] <sivang> maybe after hoary is out, we would get some more resources and attention from people currently too busy for this - and it's _perfectly understandable.
[04:49] <sivang> as Matt noted on his email, a new project, invloves many operations, we cannot expect everything to be perfect without some pains ;-)
[04:49] <ChrisH> enrico: I was stuck a little waiting for the vendor drops thingy being resolved or dropped. Perhaps I should rather commit to the other documents.
[04:50] <ChrisH> sivang: especially if 1.1.1 is what we get then why don't we just use that...
[04:50] <enrico> well, it would help if someone stepped up and said "ehi, I'm working on <x> and I'm happy, if we get <x> and <y> done we're lucky, let's think about that later"
[04:50] <enrico> ChrisH: warty has 1.0.6
[04:50] <ChrisH> enrico: oops
[04:53] <enrico> Question is: who's active at the moment, and doing what?  I've been trying to push work on the QuickGuide but with no result (and I can't understand why).  Commits come from Sean and Plovs.  The only person with a clear responsibility is trickie working on the release notes
[04:54] <enrico> How come noone's working at the QuickGuide?  Are there still problems?
[04:54] <jdub> enrico: i don't quite get the question, but:
[04:54] <jdub> - gnome cvs will be mirrored in arch
[04:55] <jdub> - the right way to manage changes is to create a branch off those
[04:55] <enrico> you mean a branch off the arch mirror?
[04:56] <jdub> yes
[04:56] <jdub> that's what arch is all about :)
[04:56] <sivang> jdub: but svn and cvs also do branches right?
[04:56] <enrico> So, if we want to fiddle with the documentation of the various applications, we need to branch off the development arch repo
[04:56] <jdub> i guess i should get on -docs and sort this all out
[04:57] <sivang> (what so special about it)
[04:57] <enrico> jdub: that would help
[04:57] <jdub> sivang: sure, but everything will be in arch
[04:57] <enrico> is the Gnome User's Manual also in arch?
[04:57] <sivang> jdub: ofcourse ;-)
[04:57] <jdub> not yet
[04:57] <enrico> s/Manual/Guide/
[04:57] <enrico> jdub: ok, so we can make a vendor drop with the User's Guide and manage the rest (docs and manpages) in arch
[04:57] <jdub> but we can prioritise it for you guys to test with
[04:59] <enrico> jdub: cool.  This is what I was trying to say in that mail.  If you could step into it and confirm / clear things out, you'd do a really great thing
[04:59] <enrico> like, really great.
[05:00] <enrico> jdub: I was considering replying to myself posting these last 20 lines of log; if you're going to reply anyway, I won't do that
[05:01] <jdub> not on the list yet, happy for you to do that
[05:02] <enrico> jdub: I'll do it, then you see if you want to add something (please do)
[05:03] <jdub> ok
[05:04] <enrico> jdub: also, I'll post the log until "< enrico> jdub: ok, so we can make a vendor drop with the User's Guide and manage the
[05:04] <enrico>                 rest (docs and manpages) in arch"
[05:05] <enrico> since I imagine that you wrote "but we can prioritise it for you guys to test with" before I sent that line
[05:11] <enrico> ChrisH, sivang: Do you have any idea why noone's working at the QuickGuide?
[05:12] <ChrisH> enrico: You know my frequent complaints... I can hardly follow Sean...
[05:13] <ChrisH> enrico: But currently I'm in bed with a flue and can't really do much that requires my brain. :)
[05:13] <enrico> ChrisH: but Sean's not working at the QuickGuide at all.  That's been stabilized long ago: everything is known about it (http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepQuickGuide), and nothing's going to change about how to edit it.
[05:14] <enrico> ChrisH: ah, ok
[05:14] <ChrisH> enrico: I'm trying to get myself back in and understand everything.
[05:14] <enrico> ChrisH: when you get better, if you have nothing to do, you can have a look at that: it's the last main thing on our original list of things to do for Hoary
[05:15] <ChrisH> enrico: so the quick guide has prio? no problem. I'll focus on that.
[05:15] <enrico> That is: FAQGuide is finished and only needs packaging; About Ubuntu only needs a makefile target and Sean promised to do it; that's all we planned for Hoary...  Release notes are also taken care of.
[05:15] <enrico> That, and the QuickGuide.  At least, that's what we thought at the BOF
[05:16] <enrico> ChrisH: cool, thanks!
[05:16] <enrico> I'll be on a plane for a couple of days and jetlagged the next day, so I'm trying to make sure that there are not big problems in what were the original goals set at the BOF
[05:18] <sivang> enrico: I'll work with ChrisH to see what we can achive on that.
[05:18] <sivang> enrico: FAQuide only needs pacakgin?
[05:18] <sivang> enrico: and be registered under yelp?
[05:18] <ChrisH> enrico: I thought that the UG needed to be finished in time, too
[05:18] <sivang> (scorllkeeper)
[05:19] <enrico> ChrisH: UG was not really on target AFAIK
[05:19] <enrico> sivang: yes: FAQGuide, About ubuntu,  QuickGuide and release notes need packaging
[05:20] <sivang> enrico: Ok, I might find some time to try and package those, after some refreshment for my omf and scrollkeeper knowledge.
[05:20] <ChrisH> enrico: if I am still supposed to help doing the package I still need to get/research information about OMF and scrollkeeper
[05:20] <ChrisH> sivang: :)
[05:20] <enrico> sivang: for the build, have a look at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamBuildingDocumentation
[05:21] <enrico> sivang: there's a workaround for building in Hoary and Debian without having xsltproc try to download stuff from the net
[05:21] <enrico> ChrisH: dh_installscrollkeeper
[05:21] <enrico> ChrisH: and sivang knows everything about it :)
[05:21] <sivang> hehe, ChrisH : almost :)
[05:22] <enrico> ChrisH: sorry: dh_scrollkeeper
[05:22] <enrico> dh_scrollkeeper and dh_installdocs
[05:22] <ChrisH> sivang: you got the job, sir, welcome on board :)
[05:22] <sivang> enrico: can't we build without downloading stuff from the net? a package building requiring stuff from the net doesn't sound all *too* good to me
[05:23] <sivang> ChrisH: I need help in understanding paclkages, first, I have been unable to follow this until some days ago..so we can work together? O:-)
[05:23] <enrico> sivang: sure we can: have a look at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamBuildingDocumentation
[05:23] <ChrisH> sivang: good
[05:23] <sivang> enrico: hey, but it's under 15000 word doc..;-)
[05:24] <enrico> sivang: yes, it's a short page!  And to the point!
[05:24] <enrico> I think we recently did a really cool job in the wiki
[05:24] <sivang> enrico: amazing, we've been lacking those in the short live of the docteam.
[05:25] <sivang> enrico: could you ask Seam to keep it that way? People don't/cannot afford to time to read __long__ docs..
[05:25] <sivang> it's unhealthy for the eyes :)
[05:25] <enrico> sivang: I'm also very proud of http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepQuickGuide : have a look!
[05:25] <enrico> sivang: I try to ensure that every page that comes out is short and to the point, and I must say that Sean did a pretty good job in most of those already
[05:26] <enrico> And if you still see scary pages, mail me and I'll fix them
[05:26] <sivang> enrico: ok, thanks :)
[05:27] <sivang> I got scary by the new ,that kicked my pages, DocumentationTeam, and some child pages of it that were rewritten by sean :)
[05:27] <sivang> it jumped from like 100wrds per page --> 1000 wrds per page..I'll mail you about those that still scare me, on the quick list:
[05:30] <sivang> enrico: amazing
[05:30] <sivang> enrico: you did a hell of a job, all the former scary pages are gone now.
[05:30] <sivang> including the application exchange protocol ro something
[05:31] <ChrisH> Yes, enrico has proven that a Wiki is not necessarily an eruption of information hell. :)
[05:31] <sivang> I also liek that you removed the "there are several things and skills you must be proficient with before you can start working with the docteam"
[05:32] <sivang> I am really glad to see that line vanished 
[05:32] <sivang> I was starting to think I am not good enough for the docteam anymore...;-)
[05:32] <sivang> I am sorry to abrupt like this, but I have held it for some time now...goot to let it go.
[05:34] <sivang> and I also mean no offense to Sean, he has very good intentions, but the heat was too high.
[05:37] <enrico> well, the cool news is that we seem to be getting on a nice track
[05:37] <enrico> well, until last night :)
[05:38] <enrico> But hopefully this last outburst is limited to Gnome things that one can choose not to hack on, and is going to be solved soon anyway
[05:42] <sivang> actually I would be interested in hacking on the gnome manual, but then I'd have to get together with baz, which might not be that bad :)
[05:42] <ChrisH> Sean qualifies for a DD. :) Technically brilliant... just that some other aspects may come short. :)
[05:43] <sivang> so working on the g-u-g would seem something appropriate, given the time and space :)
[05:44] <enrico> let's see how that job turns out to be.  Sean has been really good in making complex tasks simple with really good quality (like the status tracking, or taking screenshots)
[05:44] <enrico> So it's possible that once a way is settled with the rest of the developers, we can come out with a step by step guide that makes the thing manageable
[05:45] <enrico> But that comes later.  For now, you're welcome to use the QuickGuide to jump back on the game!
[05:46] <enrico> See you in a couple of days!
[05:46] <sivang> enrico: bon voyage!
[05:46] <ChrisH> enrico: good flights
[05:46] <enrico> Thanks!!
[06:28] <ChrisH> btw... if 1.1.1 is nice to have for vendor drops... why can't we continue to use John's server for the next half year and update it to 1.1.1?