[12:05] <sabdfl> whoot! how much is now pre-reboot?
[12:06] <sabdfl> Kamion, mdz: ^?
[12:06] <mdz> sabdfl: everything
[12:07] <mdz> well, all the questions
[12:07] <sabdfl> fantastic
[12:07] <sabdfl> i think that's a big win and worth the effort
[12:07] <sabdfl> thanks guys
[12:07] <mdz> sabdfl: http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/hoary-changes/2005-January/002077.html
[12:08] <sabdfl> that will have a big impact on perceived install time, i think
[12:09] <mdz> we still have the possibility of one question being asked by xserver-xorg if it can't probe the monitor
[12:09] <sabdfl> that's fair enough
[12:09] <mdz> though it should be possible to move that, too, if we want to
[12:09] <sabdfl> does live-cd ask the same questions, if it has to?
[12:09] <mdz> yes, if it has to
[12:10] <mdz> so the infrastructure is already there for the installer to do it pre-reboot as well
[12:10] <mdz> though it would require some X packaging work to get it set up that way
[12:10] <mdz> and unpacking the X server before reboot
[12:11] <sabdfl> i'm happy to keep the x questions post-reboot if needed
[12:11] <sabdfl> because i think the live cd / install interaction is now such that we will get lots more feedback on the x guess-o-magic
[12:11] <sabdfl> and quickly get those routines near perfect
[12:11] <mdz> we've been getting lots of good feedback of that type
[12:12] <sabdfl> super
[12:12] <mdz> over 2000 live CD downloads from bittorrent alone
[12:13] <mdz> powerpc especially got a lot of attention
[12:22] <HrdwrBoB> dejah vu
[12:34] <daniels> elmo: !
[12:34] <elmo> daniels: ?
[12:34] <daniels> elmo: you pinged?
[12:34] <elmo> oh, doesn't matter kamion told me the answer
[12:35] <daniels> phat
[12:46] <elmo> does anyone knwo who runs apt-get.org ?
[12:49] <YokoZar> mdz: ping
[12:50] <YokoZar> ogra: pong
[12:50] <ogra> YokoZar: pong ?
[12:51] <YokoZar> heh.  Anyway let's talk abotu MOTUness
[12:52] <HrdwrBoB> hey ogra, sup
[12:53] <ogra> http://www.grawert.net/hal_cpuinfo.png
[12:53] <pitti> ogra: looks good :-)
[12:53] <pitti> ogra: what does dmidecode do?
[12:53] <sjoerd> ogra: and where in the spec are those fields defined :p
[12:53] <jdub> ogra: heh, rad
[12:54] <ogra> pitti: nothing in the ui yet, but i think i git a solution with the rights...
[12:54] <thully> I wondered how suspend support in hoary is looking - any fix for pressing the "hibernate" button on thinkpads forthcoming?
[12:54] <thully> mjg59: ping
[12:54] <ogra> pitti: -rws--x---  1 root hal 19795 2005-01-31 23:16 hal-dmiwrapper
[12:55] <ogra> pitti: would this be possible ?
[12:55] <sjoerd> ogra: that's the way it's planned to do stuff for hal 0.6 afaik
[12:55] <pitti> ogra: looks good
[12:55] <ogra> yay
[12:55] <pitti> ogra: well, 4751 would even match the Policy :-)
[12:56] <pitti> ogra: i.e. -rws-r-x-r--
[12:56] <thully> does anyone know if new Ubuntu theme(s) are planned?  Human is - well - a bit basic
[12:56] <azeem> what's wrong with Human?
[12:56] <tseng> thully: see ubuntuartwork on the wiki
[12:57] <tseng> or gnome-look.org even
[12:58] <pitti> Hi stub!
[12:58] <ogra> sjoerd: th shot is 0.4.7 on hoary ;) basic dmi data is ready to go in tomorrow 
[12:58] <pitti> hmm, what a short visit...
[12:58] <thully> it's a bit basic - just has no color to it - kind of gives me that "solaris w/CDE" feel
[12:58] <pitti> Hi stub!
[12:59] <sjoerd> ogra: please get those fields in the spec, so they will be the same in 0.6 too :)
[12:59] <pitti> stub: care to stay a little longer now? :-)
[12:59] <sjoerd> ogra: dmi data should be very interesting.. nice
[12:59] <stub> :-P
[12:59] <pitti> stub: FYI, I currently work on PostgreSQL 8.0 packages
[12:59] <pitti> stub: do you guys want 8.0 in the near future?
[12:59] <stub> pitti: Will these be in base, Multiverse or Universe for Hoary?
[01:00] <pitti> stub: I'm not sure whether they will be in hoary at all
[01:00] <pitti> stub: I hope to upload them to experimental soon
[01:00] <pitti> stub: but it's still a lot of work
[01:00] <pitti> stub: since I do a completely new architecture
[01:01] <pitti> stub: If you guys need/want it, I can probably accelerate the pace a bit and put it into universe at least
[01:01] <stub> pitti: I think we will want to move to them as soon as we feel safe with it (wait to see if the early adopters get burnt), but also need it in the current stable distro. I wasn't expecting on moving to the 8.x series until 5.10
[01:01] <elmo> stub: the options are supported or universe, not base or multiverse
[01:01] <stub> So no need to go fast on our account. Mark and me will probably want to play though when it is available :-)
[01:02] <pitti> stub: okay. By the Bendy release it should be well and up :-)
[01:02] <pitti> stub: for playing with it, experimental packages should be enough, right?
[01:03] <stub> pitti: As long as someone tells me what repository to add, I'm fine.
[01:04] <stub> pitti: Provided it coexists with 7.4.x - that might be an issue?
[01:04] <pitti> stub: for Sarge+1 I thought about providing an upgrade path to the multi-version architecture
[01:05] <pitti> stub: i. e. a mostly empty postgresql package which depends on postgresql7.4
[01:05] <pitti> stub: however, without the dummy package, both versions should coexist quite happily
[01:05] <stub> pitti: So you have them listening on different ports?
[01:06] <pitti> stub: since I now manage arbitrarily many clusters/versions in parallel, I do that anyway :-)
[01:06] <stub> pitti: cool :-)
[01:07] <pitti> stub: if you want to play with it and comment on it, feel free to check out the arch head
[01:07] <pitti> stub: however, I will do some first public packages anyway
[01:07] <dholbach> good night everyone - i'm off to bed 
[01:07] <pitti> hmm, good idea; already way after midnight...
[01:09] <pitti> Night everybody!
[01:10] <ogra> hi Alessio
[01:13] <ajmitch> hey ogra  :)
[01:13] <ogra> hi :)
[01:13] <mdz> elmo: isn't that christoph haas?
[01:13] <mdz> oh, no, that's mentors.debian.net
[01:19] <tseng> hi dilinger, any word on as3?
[01:20] <tseng> :D
[01:22] <dilinger> yea, it's all ready, i just need to compile and test it
[01:23] <Alessio> hi
[01:33] <dilinger> (which will happen after i get home)
[01:49] <mdz> haggai: awake?
[02:09] <jdub> should i do this in a <ul> format?
[02:09] <jdub> http://www.gnome.org/~jdub/blog/projects/ubuntu/1107219478
[02:09] <jdub> might be easier for mako to copy
[02:30] <mdz> jdub: what was the outcome of your gnome-bt look-see yesterday?
[02:30] <jba> hi guys, I'm trying to find more information about ubuntu laptop support and this url (http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/teams/laptop/view) said that the laptop guys hang in here?
[02:31] <mdz> jba: that's right
[02:31] <jba> cool, I don't suppose there is a whole wiki section devoted to laptop items ? or even a laptop blog?
[02:31] <mdz> jba: mjg59 heads the laptop team
[02:31] <mdz> there are a number of laptop-related pages in the wiki
[02:31] <mjg59> jba: Not currently, but it's a good idea
[02:32] <mdz> but I don't think there's a central overview
[02:32] <jba> yeah but they seem disparate, and some seem contradictory
[02:32] <mdz> yeah, there ought to be
[02:32] <mdz> jba: this is symptomatic of wikis ;-)
[02:32] <jba> yeah i know, I got excited when i saw there was a laptop team
[02:33] <mdz> if you have the gumption, feel free to straighten out any wrongness in the wiki, and organize things better
[02:33] <jba> thought it mean that you guys where already mega organised, but obviously, in that respect, you guys are getting there.
[02:33] <jba> besides it's probably better to devote resources to hacking right now
[02:33] <mdz> we coordinate here, on the ubuntu-devel mailing list, in the wiki, and in bugzilla
[02:33] <jba> mdz,  the main thing confsing me now is the thing about custom dsdt files being in 2.6.9 kernel, but apparently not in 1.6.10
[02:34] <jba> i mean 2.6.10
[02:34] <jba> and I can't seem to find a reason for this
[02:34] <mjg59> jba: 2.6.10 has support for dsdt files in the initrd
[02:34] <mdz> Ubuntu 2.6.10 does, but not upstream, right?
[02:34] <mjg59> Correct
[02:34] <jba> it does? some people in the mailing list claim it doesn't
[02:34] <jba> mjg59, cool thanks dude
[02:34] <mdz> maybe they are not using Ubuntu kernels
[02:35] <mjg59> jba: On ubuntu-users?
[02:35] <jba> mjg59, i think so, to be honest i googled it yesterday and can't recall
[02:35] <jba> but if it's there, then good
[02:35] <jba> that means all i need to do is dissassemble my dsdt table fix the memory setting, recompile and add it to initrd, correct ?
[02:36] <mjg59> jba: Correct
[02:36] <mjg59> We'll have support in initrd-tools to do this automatically before release
[02:36] <jba> cool, really wasn't looking forward to compiling a kernel though
[02:36] <jba> mjg59, when is "before the release" ?
[02:36] <jba> roughly
[02:36] <mjg59> jba: When either mdz or I write it :)
[02:37] <mjg59> It won't take long, but I'm a bit busy with real-life stuff at the moment
[02:37] <jba> hehe, I didn't mean it like that dude, just trying to get a feel for when
[02:37] <mdz> mjg59: actually, jbailey is the ideal person to do that now
[02:37] <mjg59> mdz: Oh, good point
[02:37] <mjg59> I'll hassle him about it
[02:37] <jba> mjg59, i can imagine dude.
[02:37] <mdz> mjg59: isn't there a bug open already?
[02:37] <mdz> ah, I already gave it to him
[02:37] <jba> as i understand it, the automatic initrd image adding only happens at ubuntu kernel installation time?
[02:37] <mdz> mdz: good thinking
[02:38] <jba> jdub, by the way dude, did you get that link i was talking about yesterday (the nautilus share extension)?
[02:38] <mjg59> jba: Yes, or whenever someone runs mkinitrd
[02:38] <jba> cool
[02:38] <robertj> is hoary still accepting new packages?
[02:39] <jba> did you guys want me to write up my experiences with adding a custom dsdt with 2.6.10 kernels ?
[02:39] <jba> or has someone already done that?
[02:40] <mdz> robertj: in universe, yes
[02:40] <mjg59> jba: If you could write a wiki page on custom DSDTs, that would be great
[02:40] <jba> btw props on includding pptp client 1.5.0 in this ubuntu version
[02:41] <jba> mjg59, i'll give it a shot, but I'm not registered on the wiki yet
[02:41] <robertj> mdz: will wesnoth get updated auotomatically from sid?
[02:41] <mdz> robertj: no, only if requested
[02:41] <jba> oh and, My baby is due to be born any day, so I may not get the chance to finish it too soon (which is why i asked when the automatic stuff would be released)
[02:41] <robertj> is there a form anywhere ;)
[02:42] <mjg59> jba: Only takes a minute :)
[02:42] <mdz> daniels: rock, your new xorg fixes the gl crash on my laptop. good work
[02:42] <jba> mjg59, to write it up yes, to do it and get it working, well that takes a while for me
[02:42] <jba> i'm using a dell lattitude x300
[02:42] <mdz> robertj: no, that particular process is lacking in documentation
[02:42] <robertj> mdz: mail the devel list?
[02:42] <mjg59> jba: jdub has identical hardware
[02:43] <mdz> robertj: basically, we need to know the source package name, the version you want, and why
[02:43] <jba> mjg59, no shit ?
[02:43] <mdz> robertj: to ubuntu-devel, yes
[02:43] <mjg59> And working suspend/resume now that he's fixed his dsdt
[02:43] <robertj> oky
[02:43] <mdz> robertj: for main, the 'why' should generally be to fix bugs, but we're a bit more flexible with universe
[02:43] <jba> mjg59, i don't care about suspend/resume, I'm more interest in knowing when to plug power in
[02:44] <mjg59> Haha
[02:44] <mjg59> Yeah, that works too
[02:44] <jba> jdub, do you mind if we exchange war wounds with the x300 and ubuntu ?
[02:44] <jba> mjg59, serious though, that's all I really want from dsdt
[02:44] <jba> my machine has turned off on me in the middle of a crucial mono hack 3 times already cause i forget the power
[02:44] <jba> now i just don't cycle the battery, use power all the time
[02:46] <jba> i might try jdub's blog for more info, but I don't remember seeing anything about it in planet.gnome.org
[02:48] <robertj> mdz: coming at ya
[02:48] <robertj> err if evolution is happy ;)
[02:48] <jba> does jdub work for canonical or just volunteer?
[02:49] <Mithrandir> jba: he's a canonical employee.
[02:49] <Mithrandir> jba: he's the release manager. :)
[02:49] <jba> wow cool
[02:50] <jba> he is in the .au too isn't he?
[02:50] <tseng> yeah, he sleeps all day while i am awake
[02:50] <tseng> pretty wild, eh?
[02:50] <jba> that must mean he has working wifi and alsa sound on his machine too
[02:50] <Mithrandir> jba: not sure, he has a dell. ;)
[02:51] <Mithrandir> unlike the rest of us, who have nice and groovy x40s.
[02:51] <tseng> jba: do you have the irq conflict issue?
[02:51] <jba> Mithrandir, that was my point, we have the same machine
[02:51] <jba> tseng, used to work, before i updated on sunday
[02:51] <jba> used to work, but always boot with volume at 0
[02:51] <jba> now doesm't work at all
[02:51] <tseng> again, irq conflict?
[02:52] <jba> tseng, let me check that
[02:52] <tseng> read dmesg
[02:52] <robertj> is the nvdriver s3 problem a known issue?
[02:52] <tseng> possible around where ipw2x00 is loaded
[02:52] <sladen> mjg59: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-grub/2001-06/msg00141.html  It looks like grub might already have the necessary support to pass it multiple initrd's
[02:52] <jba> faq need to find a power cable
[02:53] <mjg59> sladen: Did that get included?
[02:53] <jba> tseng, one second booting haory now
[02:53] <mjg59> It probably doesn't add the correct magic to demarcate the initrd, though
[02:53] <sladen> mjg59: so might be able to do   initrd={real initrd},  initrd={DSDT HEADER},  initrd={replacement dsdt}
[02:53] <jba> tseng, which dell do you ahve?
[02:53] <tseng> jba: 600m
[02:53] <jba> aah
[02:53] <mjg59> Ah, I see what you mean
[02:53] <mjg59> That would be kind of neat
[02:54] <jba> tseng, what's something to grep dmesg with quickly?
[02:55] <tseng> jba: ipw .. if you have an intel wifi card
[02:55] <tseng> the driver complains if it cant get the irq
[02:55] <sladen> poor update-grub would probably choke
[02:56] <mjg59> update-grub can be dealt with
[02:56] <jba> no ipw in dmesg
[02:56] <jba> apperntly acpi is not finding the dsdt at all too
[02:57] <robertj> sladen: your the usplash guru right?
[02:58] <sladen> robertj: legend has it
[02:58] <robertj> sladen: Any news on that?
[02:59] <sladen> robertj: I'm counting down the days to the feature freeze 
[02:59] <robertj> sladen: so you can slip in naughty bootsplashes meer seconds before the freeze ;)
[03:00] <sladen> robertj: I hope not mere seconds, I'd like at least a few days of testing first
[03:00] <jba> tseng, this would be facilitate a little more by knowing what I'm looking for
[03:01] <jba> hehe] 
[03:01] <tseng> ill give you the bug # your issue is similar to
[03:01] <robertj> sladen: something giving you more trouble than expected?
[03:01] <sladen> robertj: hopefully more than the 15minutes-before-the-31st-January-deadline I allowed for the Tax return this evening
[03:01] <jba> that would be most helpful thanks
[03:02] <sladen> robertj: yes, the bit I'm worried about involves x86 computers.  They are unique in that they come up in something called a 'text console', rather than a framebuffer.  To change to a framebuffer mode, you need to figure that out and set it in the bootloader.  Now what happens if you set a mode the attached monitor can't handle?
[03:03] <tseng> jba: have a look at https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1254
[03:03] <robertj> sladen: they buy a new monitor?
[03:03] <robertj> (very rarely)
[03:03] <tseng> jba: it sounds related based on the very limited info youve given so far. (sound + wifi no worky)
[03:03] <sladen> robertj: X falls back to a text-console to allow you to fix things if it fails;  ...but now you've just made their bootloader unuseable
[03:04] <sladen> anyone know 'Dave Cinege' ?
[03:04] <jba> tseng, thanks for your help dude, I'll take anything I can get, since I didn't even come in here for that :)
[03:04] <robertj> sladen: so the rub is you force the fb from the start things can be unusable
[03:06] <sladen> robertj: I ignore the problem presently, since it is a big headache
[03:07] <sladen> robertj: hence hacking up a semi-equivalent text-based version of the graphics so that it can at least display /something/
[03:07] <robertj> sladen: text-based?
[03:07] <jba> lspci says my lappy is using a braodcom wireless
[03:08] <tseng> oh, nasty
[03:08] <robertj> sladen: how much of the substrate is missing to actually probe the monitor?
[03:08] <jba> yeah, I don't really care about it either, just want my sound back
[03:08] <tseng> jdub: the key is the parport, not the wifi card on this bug
[03:08] <tseng> er, jba 
[03:09] <jba> i don't see irq 7 being assigned anywhere in dmesg
[03:11] <sladen> oh, not /that/ bug
[03:11] <sladen> jba: is it a Dell?
[03:12] <jba> sladen, yeah dude
[03:12] <jba> guys, by the way. I appreciate your help but if you're busy with other stuff I understand
[03:13] <jba> I didn't really come here to fix this but would love to get the inside word :)
[03:14] <sladen> jba: the bug number is 1254, have you tried the things on there?
[03:14] <jba> besides I don't think the x300 comes with a parport
[03:14] <sladen> jba: interesting
[03:14] <jba> sladen, yeah going down the notes now, but I don't think it applies
[03:17] <jba> got sound back, by unloading and relaoding the alsa drivers
[03:18] <mdz> sladen: late night?
[03:18] <jba> anyway guys, thanks for your help so far, I'll try and get that dsdt stuff done and documented in the wiki
[03:19] <tseng> gl jba
[03:20] <jba> jdub, if you ever get a chance, I'd love to have a chat with you about how you have your x300 set up
[03:21] <robertj> sladen: so is usplash86 going to differ from usplash for the otherarchs?
[03:25] <sladen> robertj: no, the actual code is identical.  The unique problem on x86/amd64 is going to be setting grub to pass vga=XXX on the kernel commandline based on what VESA modes where reported as being the closest match to what xresprobe/ddcprobe has found the monitor capable
[03:25] <sladen> mdz: the first of many this week I suspect :)
[03:26] <sladen> robertj: I've done nothing in that respect since it's currently easier to say  ''append vga=791 if you'd like pretty 1024x768 goo''
[03:28] <robertj> sladen: do mac's not have that problem if you don't use video=ofonly?
[03:30] <sladen> robertj: usplash just wants a framebuffer;  doesn't really care how it got there
[03:31] <Riddell> is the wiki broken?  I can't log in
[03:31] <robertj> was just curious ;)
[03:34] <robertj> is the usplash artwork finalized?
[03:37] <sladen> robertj: nope.  I'm build-depending on ubuntu-artwork and pulling in the GNOME background/splash/throbber and whoever is doing the artwork can deal with that
[03:39] <tritium> sladen, so I take it you didn't care for my grub splash image that I emailed you?
[03:39] <sladen> tritium: grub splash is a different thing.
[03:39] <tritium> sladen, I realize that
[03:40] <tritium> you has asked me to submit the image to you, though
[03:40] <wasabi> heh: available updates: test
[03:40] <sladen> tritium: if you read back a bit, you'll see why I'm scared of /automatically/ doing anything graphical at the grub level---eg. you toast their monitor, they can't even select the 'recovery' option and skip it.  However, that doesn't mean I've ignored it or haven't added it to the collection
[03:41] <tritium> I joined too late to see that.
[03:41] <wasabi> How's apple do it?
[03:41] <tritium> okay, glad to hear it.  I just wasn't sure, since I hadn't heard back from you.
[03:42] <sladen> tritium: it's here in fact: http://www.paul.sladen.org/ubuntu/usplash/ideas/tritium/ubuntu-splash-5-colour.xpm
[03:42] <tritium> :)
[03:42] <tritium> thanks, sladen
[03:43] <sladen> wasabi: Apple is not a problem.  OF makes use of all the things like sensing pins and brings it up in the correct mode that fully fills the screen
[03:43] <wasabi> ahh.
[03:43] <wasabi> what about MS?
[03:43] <wasabi> they just do low res don't they though
[03:43] <robertj> wasabi: they changed at some point
[03:44] <robertj> like sp1 maybe
[03:44] <robertj> now on some machines its centered in the middle of the display
[03:44] <tritium> sladen, zenwhen's idea is similar to my second idea (rotating ubuntu logo)
[03:44] <sladen> I think it may even be the 640x400x16 mode until they can probe anything more
[03:45] <wasabi> heh.
[03:45] <robertj> I really like the idea of the rotating ubuntu log
[03:45] <tritium> cool!
[03:45] <wasabi> yeah that sounds slick.
[03:46] <robertj> sladen: I've noticed recently that some fix the resolution properly from the start (usually 1024x768)
[03:46] <tritium> I'm glad you agree :)
[03:46] <robertj> My machine doesn't do it but the ones I have installed from at the Office that are standard Dimensions + Ultrascan Flat panels do
[03:46] <tritium> sometimes there's something to be said for simplicity
[03:46] <wasabi> I've been thinking about this update-manager thing.
[03:47] <robertj> tritium: like the Apple?
[03:47] <wasabi> I love the way it looks... but I wonder if showing stuff like "debconf" as an updateable is worth showing users.
[03:48] <tritium> robertj, I meant the rotating ubuntu logo is simple, yet appealing
[03:48] <robertj> yeah
[03:48] <wasabi> Wonder if there could be some logical grouping to roll up many packages into one big group... like "System Components"... for everything that's built in.
[03:48] <sladen> robertj: interesting.  Some 'what' fix the resolution?
[03:48] <wasabi> and then "PostgreSQL Database Server" for postgres, and all it's component packages, etc etc.
[03:49] <robertj> sladen: certain machines
[03:49] <robertj> running XP
[03:49] <robertj> maybe it trusts the bios to doko DDC probing?
[03:50] <robertj> %s/ko//
[03:50] <sladen> robertj: tell me more.  At what point is it flicking to the native panel resolution (not just the panel stretching)
[03:50] <robertj> sladen: bios, blackscreen, then the moving blue bar
[03:51] <robertj> and at the bar its good
[03:51] <sladen> hmm
[03:51] <robertj> but it still does the flicker when you laod into the GUI
[03:52] <mdz> wasabi: there is certainly more that could be done to simplify the interface
[03:53] <robertj> sladen: is it possible to get the monitor's serial number without too much fuss?
[03:53] <wasabi> I'm sitting here trying to think through how one would accomplish something like that. There isn't much of a grouping at all in apt of relating packages.
[03:53] <mdz> wasabi: but given that the only real option was previously synaptic, it's come a long way already :-)
[03:53] <robertj> maybe it just stores the default res in the bootloader
[03:53] <wasabi> yeah, it's amazing.
[03:53] <wasabi> I'll give you that. I think it's a great app.
[03:53] <wasabi> I use it instead of synaptic now heh
[03:53] <mdz> we had discussed one way to group things
[03:53] <mdz> along the same lines as gnome-app-install
[03:53] <wasabi> desktop files?
[03:54] <mdz> applications would be represented as first-class things, and other packages as "system software" etc.
[03:54] <robertj> gnome-update-manager is another option to synaptic in the same way a can-opener is another option to using an axe
[03:54] <wasabi> hahaha
[03:54] <robertj> users could really care less
[03:54] <robertj> securing your computer .... with a countdown timer would make them happy
[03:59] <tritium> Speaking of security, I'm performing the "Sandia Secure Unix/Linux Operating System Certification Tests" to get ubuntu officially approved for use within Sandia National Labs
[04:00] <robertj> sladen: ok, simple theory to explain the correct proportions on the new monitors
[04:01] <robertj> the new monitors are all digital flat panels so it probably just automatically sized down the stuff to keep it from looking horrible
[04:01] <mdz> tritium: what sort of tests are involved? anything meaningful?
[04:01] <robertj> and windows is probably none the wizer
[04:02] <robertj> sladen: more reaosnable sounding?
[04:02] <tritium> mdz, they're pretty simple, actually.  Discretionary access controls and auditing, basically.
[04:02] <robertj> sladen: and the initial bootsplash is 320x400
[04:03] <tritium> mdz, the test plan was written in 1999, and is going to be revised soon.  I assume it'll get more rigorous.
[04:03] <jdub> jba: there?
[04:03] <tritium> So I'm working with another person to get the testing done soon.
[04:04] <jba> jdub, yep
[04:04] <jba> back from lunch
[04:04] <sladen> tritium: wow.  groovy.  Excellent in fact!
[04:04] <mdz> jdub: what was the outcome of your gnome-bt look-see yesterday?
[04:04] <jba> actually had lunch at my desk
[04:04] <jdub> jba: everything in the X300 works, but you need to load a custom DSDT, and i haven't tried the modem
[04:04] <tritium> sladen, I think so too :)
[04:05] <jdub> mdz: didn't get a chance, doing it today
[04:05] <jba> jdub, you're wireless works "off the bat"
[04:05] <jba> and I figured about the dsdt
[04:05] <jdub> jba: ipw2200 in mine, works fine
[04:05] <jba> faq
[04:05] <jba> we don't actually have identical hardware then
[04:06] <jba> cool jdub, thanks for he assistance dude, much appreciated
[04:06] <jdub> despite being a dell, and the DSDT issue, i can happily recommend the X300. lovely little box.
[04:06] <jba> yeah, cept the Fn F8 has issues
[04:06] <jdub> the only other option was an ipw2100, wasn't it?
[04:06] <jba> doesn't even work properly in windows
[04:06] <jba> jdub, i don't know, I didn't buy this machine, was bought by network adming
[04:06] <tritium> You'd laugh at the simplicity of some of the tests.  (e.g., 6.1: Verify that UIDs are associated with all processes on the machine)
[04:07] <jba> i think mine has a broadcom in it
[04:07] <sladen> robertj: 320x400 sounds familier.  When does it stop being 'initial bootsplash' and start becoming the 1024... one
[04:07] <robertj> sladen: i was thinking it was scaling it down but now that I think about it it's probably just the monitor
[04:07] <jdub> jba: lspci?
[04:07] <robertj> :(
[04:07] <jba> jdub, did yo install the ubuntu i855crt or i80?switch from universe ?
[04:07] <jba> jdub 1 sec booting again
[04:07] <jdub> jba: if they did get the broadcom, tell them they're nutters :)
[04:07] <robertj> sladen: thus no secret magic :(
[04:08] <jdub> jba: i use i855crt
[04:08] <tritium> jdub, but Waugh...uh...what is it good for?
[04:08] <jba> it doesn't put that crap band accross the top on return from crt?
[04:08] <jdub> hrm, no
[04:08] <jba> jdub, it was never their intention to get a linux machine. my lappy is a windows machine that I dual booted
[04:08] <jdub> haven't tried for a while, but the worst problem with it atm is lack of mouse cursor
[04:08] <jba> for mono hacking
[04:09] <jba> Fn F2 turns on wifi and blue tooth correct ?
[04:09] <tseng> yep
[04:09] <jdub> jba: roughly
[04:10] <jba> roughly?
[04:10] <jba> do i need to press it twice or something ?
[04:10] <jdub> well, it seems to work and not work depending on the state of acpi and whether it's raining in cleveland
[04:10] <jba> hey also, how come ubuntu install cd dosn't have a rescue mode
[04:10] <jba> jdub, someone posted a way to fix that too, but it needs a kernel recompile
[04:11] <jba> broadcom bcm4036 wireless
[04:11] <mjg59> You lose
[04:12] <jba> hehe
[04:12] <mjg59> More seriously - we have someone working on Broadcom support, but it may not happen for Hoary
[04:12] <jba> double faqers
[04:12] <jba> don't need wireless yet anyhow
[04:12] <jba> just want acpi
[04:12] <jba> and bluetooth would be nice
[04:12] <mjg59> You can get wireless with ndiswrapper
[04:13] <mjg59> bluetooth should just work, really
[04:13] <jba> mjg59, will test when i get my bluetooth phone
[04:13] <jdub> bluetooth just works
[04:13] <jba> i might go ndiswraper then
[04:13] <jba> i really don't want to do a kernel recompile
[04:14] <jba> and no one uses an sd card reader
[04:14] <mjg59> If you need to do a kernel recompile, that means we've messed up
[04:14] <mjg59> There's no support for SD readers yet, unless they're USB-connected
[04:15] <sladen> or PCMCIA connected
[04:15] <jba> i'm a happy camper
[04:15] <marcin_> jdub: hi! Is website contest finished (I'm not sure in which time zone you are)?
[04:15] <mdz> I don't think compiling the kernel helps for bc4036
[04:15] <mdz> note that you don't need to recompile to get ndiswrapper; it's already there
[04:15] <jba> will have working wireless, bluetooth and battery indicator by the end of this week (fingers crossed)
[04:16] <sladen> mdz: thanks
[04:16] <jba> jdub, where you guys standing on shipping mono?
[04:16] <jdub> jba: possibly for the next release
[04:16] <jdub> it's all in universe at the moment, and lots of apps are nicely up to date
[04:17] <jba> 1.1.4 is about to be pushed out in the coming days
[04:17] <jba> that will be the version to push out
[04:17] <jdub> we haven't upgraded beyond 1.0 yet
[04:18] <jdub> it's tempting, but there have been lots of build problems, etc.
[04:18] <jdub> if you, or another mono dude, could update the packages and be sure that they work, that'd really help
[04:18] <jdub> the worst part is the bootstrapping problem
[04:18] <jdub> lamont and thom can probably help out with that
[04:19] <jdub> tseng: i can't get to your site
[04:19] <tseng> jdub: hm?
[04:19] <ajmitch> jdub: build problems were mostly fixed with 1.0.5
[04:19] <ajmitch> which has just gone into sid
[04:19] <jba> jdub, i've never packaged linux (let alone deb) software before, but I'd love to help
[04:19] <tseng> jdub: the admin just ping timeout on irc, not a good sign
[04:19] <tseng> jdub: i can upload elsewhere
[04:20] <jba> I'm just cautious of taking on more than i can swallow in the coming months (baby and all)
[04:21] <lamont> jba: 1.1.4 will need to actually be able to build 1.1.4 before it gets into the archive.
[04:21] <lamont> unlike 1.0.4, which can't build itself (must be built using 1.0.2)
[04:21] <ajmitch> lamont: 1.0.5 can build 1.0.5 - it was a problem with havnig .net 2.0 stuff enabled
[04:21] <lamont> if 1.0.5 can actually build itself, then we have a good chance of having things happy
[04:22] <lamont> jdub: I'll let you ask yourself to approve the sync.. :-)
[04:22] <jba> lamont, didn't know that was the problem, I'm pretty sure 1.1.4 can build itself, 1 sec and I'll check
[04:23] <tseng> jdub: copied to http://smarterits.com/~brandon/tomboy/
[04:24] <jba> from #mono
 hey guys can 1.1.4 build itself?
 This is just a preview I repeat
 jba, yes
[04:24] <jba> its still a preview guys, but it's meant to be the most stable release so far
[04:24] <ajmitch> jba: do you think it is good to put in a devel branch of mono over a stable branch?
[04:24] <jdub> yeah, a number of mono hackers have been urging us to upgrade to 1.1.x because it's better that 1.0
[04:24] <jba> not yet no
[04:25] <jba> i'm just asking about it is all
[04:25] <ajmitch> especially as the upstream version freeze is in place now
[04:25] <jba> aah well, next time 
[04:25] <ajmitch> it's up to the release people here anyway :)
[04:25] <jdub> ajmitch: though we're more relaxed with universe
[04:25] <ajmitch> jdub: yeah, which is a good thing
[04:26] <jba> to be honest, this kind of thing is precisely what upstream version freeze is for
[04:26] <sladen> mdz: just answering that email.  splash=  can stay on the command line, and usplash will happily draw a similar-ish text equivalent.  What should probably be ommitted is that 'video='  or  'vga=' lines
[04:26] <jba> stop upstream packages sneaking in cause they're almost there at release time
[04:27] <tseng> jba: er, not really
[04:27] <tseng> before freeze things are auto synced from sid, thats what needed to be frozen
[04:27] <tseng> as far as manual merges, they can be followed closely
[04:27] <tseng> and reverted at worst case.
[04:28] <jba> well in that case, a quote from miguel
 I strongly suggest 1.1.4 instead of 1.0.x series at this point
 Unless you must remain stable
[04:28] <tseng> jba: note that mono is in universe as well
[04:28] <mako> jdub: that's cool!
[04:29] <jba> tseng, yeah jdub enlightened me to that fact too
[04:29] <jdub> mako: going to do this every morning or so
[04:29] <mako> jdub: rock
[04:29] <jdub> mako: it's now in <ul> so you can copy to traffic :)
[04:29] <jba> jdub, you never got back to me about the smb share extension? am i beating a dead horse without knowing it?
[04:29] <jdub> jba: oh, which one was it?
[04:30] <jba> i'llget linky again
[04:30] <tseng> jdub: tomboy mirror working now?
[04:30] <jdub> tseng: so, you don't need the debian/dirs file
[04:30] <jdub> especially with usr/sbin in it ;)
[04:31] <jba> jdub,  http://gentoo.ovibes.net/nautilus-share/
[04:31] <jba> and http://gentoo.ovibes.net/nautilus-share/ubuntu
[04:31] <jba> it works a treat for sharing folders in smb over a network
[04:31] <jdub> ah, yes, i remember that one
[04:32] <jba> it would be nice to have something similar in ubuntu by default
[04:32] <duncanm> yo yo yo
[04:32] <duncanm> jba: you're here already?
[04:32] <tseng> jdub: gone now.
[04:32] <jdub> yes, but i'd rather not add random things where there are gnome things on their way
[04:32] <jba> duncanm, yeah, been here a while dude
[04:32] <jdub> tseng: you are?
[04:32] <jdub> oh
[04:32] <jdub> dirs
[04:32] <tseng> ya
[04:32] <duncanm> i'm here to promote the use of Mono 1.1.x as the stable Mono to ship
[04:32] <jba> jdub, that's what i was asking you, is there a gnome thing coming?
[04:33] <jdub> tseng: i'd recommend versioning your package '0.3.1-1ubuntu1'
[04:33] <tseng> i havent made a patch yet to force the install into /usr/share/dotnet
[04:33] <jdub> duncanm: i'd like to, we just need someone keen enough to test that 1.1.4 can build, and all the important apps work with it
[04:34] <jdub> tseng: yeah, so i roughly think that's crackish
[04:34] <tseng> jdub: id agree, but its the policy laid forward
[04:34] <tseng> so it should be done at some point.
[04:34] <jdub> tseng: if you're intending to get it into debian, go for it :)
[04:34] <tseng> id like to get a sane pacage into hoary for now
[04:35] <tseng> and conquer debian another day
[04:35] <jdub> yeah
[04:35] <jdub> otherwise it's looking very sane
[04:35] <ajmitch> tseng: what have you been packaging?
[04:35] <jdub> you don't really need DOCS given your rules file
[04:35] <tseng> oh on blam you mentioned an s/libxml/intltool
[04:36] <tseng> does that apply?
[04:36] <tseng> ajmitch: tomboy atm
[04:36] <ajmitch> alright
[04:36] <jdub> tseng: s/libxml-parser-perl/intltool/
[04:36] <tseng> yep
[04:36] <ajmitch> noone has taken up gsf-sharp & evolution-sharp yet?
[04:36] <jdub> yeah, that'd be good too
[04:36] <jdub> ajmitch: no one's said anything
[04:36] <ajmitch> alright
[04:36] <ajmitch> I'll take a look then
[04:37] <tseng> jdub: one question
[04:37] <tseng> jdub: lintian complains about duplicate deps, thats from the ${net:Depends} ${sh:Depends}
[04:38] <tseng> not sure where i pulled that from, but im unsure if net:Depends by itself will get all deps properly
[04:38] <tseng> like libgtkspell
[04:38] <tseng> anyway to spot check that?
[04:39] <ajmitch> ${net:Depends} is from dh_netdeps, iirc
[04:39] <tseng> yes, it is
[04:39] <tseng> but i dont think all the linked code is managed
[04:39] <ajmitch> it says it'll look at the assemblies for info
[04:39] <ajmitch> right
[04:39] <jdub> hrm, i don't seem to have dupe depends
[04:40] <tseng> oh i just have net:Depends atm
[04:40] <jdub> oh
[04:40] <tseng> im thinking that might not catch libgtkspell, however
[04:41] <tseng> try adding sh:Depends
[04:41] <tseng> i put up 1ubuntu1 with your suggestions also.
[04:42] <jdub> with only net:Depends, i have:
[04:42] <jdub>  Depends: mono-jit (>= 1.0.4) | mono-mint (>= 1.0.4), libdbus-cil (>= 0.23-2), libgconf-cil (>= 1.0), libglib-cil (>= 1.0), libglib2.0-0 (>= 2.6.0), libgnome-cil (>= 1.0), libgtk-cil (>= 1.0), libgtkspell0 (>= 2.0.2), libpanel-applet2-0 (>= 2.9.90), mono-assemblies-base (>= 1.0)
[04:42] <jdub> 
[04:42] <tseng> perfect
[04:43] <jdub> interesting though, we should find out more
[04:43] <tseng> id say that makes 1ubuntu1 a winner.
[04:43] <ajmitch> 1ubuntu1 or 0ubuntu1?
[04:43] <jdub> 0ubuntu1
[04:43] <tseng> oh..
[04:43] <jdub> oh, i wrote 1ubuntu1 above, sorry
[04:43] <tseng> will fix
[04:45] <tseng> i missed debian/docs also
[04:46] <tseng> refresh.
[04:46] <jdub> tseng: smarterits again?
[04:46] <tseng> yep.
[04:48] <tseng> jba: still here? whats the take on gkt-sharp2?
[04:48] <jba> works well for me
[04:48] <jdub> tseng: uploading now :)
[04:48] <tseng> jba: its only 1.9.1, but rock solid here.. the muine maintainer has packages up
[04:48] <jba> most of mono in svn at the moment deps on it
[04:48] <tseng> jdub: rock, thanks
[04:48] <tseng> jba: yes i run muine-cvs
[04:49] <jba> tseng, 1 sec i'll ask tberman why the number wasn't bumped
[04:49] <tseng> jba: would love to get a package in when 0.8.1 hits
[04:49] <tseng> which number?
[04:49] <ajmitch> hmm, why does mono-mint appear to be at 0.96?
[04:49] <tseng> ajmitch: thats the minimum version per standards
[04:49] <duncanm> oh, i'd like to advocate not to ship mint, btw
[04:49] <duncanm> we have JITs available on a lot more architectures now
[04:49] <tseng> mint is needs on amd64 in 1.x
[04:50] <jdub> duncanm: we ship mint on !386 !powerpc
[04:50] <tseng> 1.0.x
[04:50] <jba> tseng, most of mono gtk tool sin svn now dep on gtk-sharp 2 anhyhow
[04:50] <jdub> duncanm: amd64?
[04:50] <duncanm> tseng: yeah, but it's no longer the case for 1.1
[04:50] <ajmitch> tseng: yes, but it appears to depend on other 0.96 packages
[04:50] <jdub> duncanm: sparc?
[04:50] <duncanm> we have a JIT for amd64 in 1.1, and also a more stable sparc JIT
[04:50] <jba> including gtkmozembed, monodevelop, gtksourceveiew-sharp and co
[04:50] <duncanm> jdub: we have a sparc JIT
[04:50] <jdub> cool
[04:50] <duncanm> we run regression test suites on it too
[04:50] <duncanm> as we move towards 1.1.x
[04:50] <jdub> would you recommend the option of mint or jit for sparc?
[04:51] <duncanm> and towards the 2.0 framework
[04:51] <tseng> jba: hm, so the consensus is to package it?
[04:51] <duncanm> i think the JIT will work
[04:51] <duncanm> mint will become less and less maintained
[04:51] <duncanm> because all the work on doing .NET generics is happening on the JIT
[04:51] <tseng> jdub: thanks for all your help dude.
[04:51] <jdub> so it's kinda jit-or-die really?
[04:52] <duncanm> and it is unlikely that the interpreter will get generics support
[04:52] <jdub> tseng: no probs, now we just have to get you MOTU love :)
[04:52] <ajmitch> tseng: the debian pkg-mono group don't appear to have 1.1.x stuff packaged at all
[04:52] <duncanm> well, .NET was always envisioned to be JIT'ed
[04:52] <tseng> ajmitch: nope
[04:52] <tseng> ajmitch: the muine maintainer has them in his webspace
[04:52] <ajmitch> ah
[04:52] <ajmitch> lovely
[04:52] <jdub> tseng: aha, handy :)
[04:52] <tseng> ill dig them out
[04:52] <duncanm> it can be interpreted, but that was never a stated goal in its design
[04:53] <jba> ajmitch, what is gsf-sharp ?
[04:53] <tseng> http://www.ilrt.bristol.ac.uk/people/cmdjb/2004/muine/devel/
[04:53] <tseng> muine cvs and gtk-sharp2
[04:54] <duncanm> hrm
[04:54] <ajmitch> jba: package used by beagle for reading office files, iirc
[04:54] <jba> aah that;s right yeah
[04:54] <ajmitch> not that you can tell from the README
[04:55] <jba> by the way guys, duncanm is the guy that does most of the packaging for mono releases, he can be of great assistance here
[04:55] <duncanm> who decides on how Mono is done for ubuntu?
[04:55] <miguelkj> Hey folks
[04:55] <duncanm> from the Mono standpoint, it'd be nice if the package names are all the same
[04:55] <ajmitch> duncanm: as I understand it, no one person yet :)
[04:55] <miguelkj> I wanted to clear up some confussion
[04:55] <duncanm> hey miguel
[04:55] <ajmitch> hello miguel
[04:56] <miguelkj> Mono 1.1.x is a superset of Mono 1.0.x
[04:56] <miguelkj> Hey Dude
[04:56] <mako> miguelkj: hola
[04:56] <miguelkj> Gtk# 2.0 is not a superset of Gtk# 1.0
[04:56] <miguelkj> Is a refactoring and cleanup effort, which *might* break (although we have tried not to)
[04:56] <jdub> morning miguelito
[04:56] <miguelkj> Gtk# 1.9.xxx is still a development version, and its api is likely to keep changing 
[04:56] <tseng> heya miguel
[04:56] <wasabi> So, mono 1.1 + gtk# 1.0 should be compatible?
[04:57] <duncanm> miguelkj: i'm also talking of not shipping 'mint'
[04:57] <miguelkj> For now we are recommending that people use Gtk# 1.0, and if they want to use Gtk# 2.0, that its properly flagged as `unstable'
[04:57] <duncanm> wasabi: they are compatible
[04:57] <miguelkj> mono 1.1 + gtk# 1.0 is just perfect
[04:57] <ajmitch> duncanm: currently the packaging for mono is grabbed straight from debian
[04:57] <wasabi> yes yes, i don't mean with each other
[04:57] <jdub> duncanm: we're following debian mono guidelines for the moment
[04:57] <miguelkj> You can parallel install gtk#1.0 and 1.9, but 1.9 is still under development
[04:57] <duncanm> hrm
[04:57] <duncanm> from the Mono standpoint, it'll be nice if the package names are all the same, it cuts down on the FAQ
[04:57] <tseng> im interested in shipping 1.9, as muine depends on it
[04:58] <duncanm> but i dunno if that's possible
[04:58] <miguelkj> That is fine, but flag the `-devel' packages as `unstable'
[04:58] <miguelkj> Ie, dont encourage people to use it until we are done
[04:58] <tseng> thats how it is here:
[04:58] <miguelkj> (so we can avoid things like missmatches)
[04:58] <tseng> http://www.ilrt.bristol.ac.uk/people/cmdjb/2004/muine/devel/
[04:58] <tseng> the source, anyway, is -unstable
[04:58] <tseng> the bins follow standard naming.
[04:59] <miguelkj> Anyways, if someone has troubling questions, I will be happy to answer them
[04:59] <miguelkj> Maybe I should write a FAQ on this subject
[04:59] <jba> sounds like a good idea
[05:00] <jdub> miguelkj: maybe a "SHIP THIS!" status thingy on the release page :)
[05:01] <miguelkj> Heh
[05:01] <miguelkj> Gtk# 1.0, Mono 1.0 usually
[05:01] <miguelkj> But with 1.1.4 we have crossed the point where the -devel is way better than the -stable
[05:03] <duncanm> tseng: do you guys have a /usr/share/dotnet dir in the Debian packaging?
[05:03] <ajmitch> duncanm: yep :)
[05:03] <tseng> yes.
[05:03] <jdub> (sooo muuuuch craaaack)
[05:03] <tseng> i didnt patch tomboy to follow that yet, i will before pushing to debian
[05:03] <tseng> lest i be mauled
[05:03] <ajmitch> jdub: it cou be worse
[05:03] <duncanm> and that's a rename of /usr/lib/mono ?
[05:03] <ajmitch> s/cou/could/
[05:03] <miguelkj> what lives in share/dotnet?
[05:04] <ajmitch> the GAC
[05:04] <miguelkj> Oh, that is not right
[05:04] <ajmitch> on my sid box I don't have /usr/lib/mono
[05:04] <miguelkj> it should be lib/dotnet
[05:04] <miguelkj> because there are certain per-architecture .dlls
[05:04] <ajmitch> the argument was made that since they are meant to be arch-independent, they should be in share
[05:04] <lamont> jdub: wrt mono, if we decide that we don't want 1.1 because of UVF, we should really take 1.0.5 instead
[05:04] <ajmitch> that's what I assumed
[05:04] <miguelkj> Someone did not know better
[05:04] <duncanm> lamont: what's UVF?
[05:05] <tseng> duncanm: upstream version freeze
[05:05] <lamont> upstream version freeze
[05:05] <miguelkj> I can tell you right now that its broken ;-)
[05:05] <lamont> 1.0.4 violates holy principles
[05:05] <tseng> miguelkj: ironically, they argue in ignorance of your point that lib is for arch specific libs
[05:05] <duncanm> who's the debian packager for Mono?
[05:05] <ajmitch> the numbers don't add to a multiple of 3?
[05:05] <tseng> miguelkj: if there are arch-specific dlls, their case falls apart.
[05:05] <miguelkj> yes, and some of our dlls are arch specific
[05:05] <ajmitch> duncanm: pkg-mono.alioth.debian.org
[05:06] <miguelkj> oh well ;-)
[05:06] <miguelkj> Its not like anyone seriously splits share and lib anyways
[05:06] <miguelkj> Nowadays nobody has any of those nfs setups
[05:06] <jdub> lamont: yeah, agree
[05:06] <jdub> lamont: perhaps we should just sync that, and see if 1.1.4 happens
[05:06] <lamont> jdub: anyway, I await y'all's decision on it...
[05:07] <miguelkj> Also, at least for Mono assemblies, you should use $prefix/lib/mono, not $prefix/lib/dotnet
[05:07] <tseng> 1.0.5 isnt in sid yet.. still on alioth
[05:07] <miguelkj> To begin with, we are not dotnet ;-)
[05:07] <lamont> if 1.0.5 syncs and someone tells me, I'll bootstrap it on whichever architectures it likes
[05:07] <jdub> ajmitch: ah, no wonder you keep mentioning pnet. no one else thinks it's relevant. :)
[05:07] <miguelkj> And to continue, that is also where we place precompiled object (ahead-of-time-compiled code)
[05:07] <jdub> miguelkj: unfortunately the conventions wiki page is b0rked atm
[05:07] <miguelkj> Maybe I should speak with the upstream maintainer of Mono
[05:07] <lamont> tseng: mono won't be in sarge until 1.0.5...
[05:07] <jdub> would be good to get some comments on it
[05:07] <miguelkj> (the mono package)
[05:08] <miguelkj> Sure
[05:08] <lamont> since it has critical bugs against it...
[05:08] <tseng> jdub: its in /usr/share/doc/mono-utils
[05:08] <lamont> s/critical/serious/
[05:08] <miguelkj> I wonder who came up with the idea of renaming the directory
[05:08] <tseng> jdub: er, no
[05:08] <miguelkj> we worked so hard to eliminate the notion of `dotnet', just to get it slapped right back 
[05:08] <jdub> miguelkj: are you running ubuntu on one of your machines yet? :)
[05:08] <ajmitch> jdub: I actually heard of one person using it the other day ;)
[05:08] <miguelkj> Yes, in my other t40
[05:08] <miguelkj> we really worked hard on that ecma/non-ecma split
[05:09] <miguelkj> Our Gtk# is not touching any non-ecma for that reason (which everyone wants to)
[05:09] <tseng> jdub: miguelkj http://smarterits.com/~brandon/README.Debian.gz
[05:09] <miguelkj> So puting `dotnet' on the string is just flame material
[05:09] <tseng> ^ crack
[05:09] <jdub> miguelkj: ^ pull that file :)
[05:09] <jdub> tseng: thanks
[05:09] <tseng> nps
[05:10] <miguelkj> uh oh
[05:10] <tseng> if you beat them senseless over it, jdub and I would be two happy dudes
[05:10] <tseng> patching every mono app to install there is crack
[05:11] <miguelkj> oh my
[05:11] <miguelkj> this is horrible
[05:11] <miguelkj>  /usr/bin/cli  chooses between mint and mono
[05:11] <miguelkj> There is no need for an extra wrapper
[05:11] <miguelkj> Not to mention that the command line args are incompatible
[05:11] <ajmitch> it should be a symlink
[05:11] <ajmitch> well, it should have been in the past
[05:11] <miguelkj> ilx, mono and mint all use different arguments
[05:11] <ajmitch> lovely
[05:12] <miguelkj> Patching every mono app sounds like a painful process
[05:12] <miguelkj> It seems that the document was written by someone who barely knew Mono sadly
[05:12] <tseng> this was written pre-beta
[05:13] <miguelkj> Debian people are famous for being hard to convince
[05:13] <tseng> but its still in play for some reason
[05:13] <miguelkj> Is it that still the case?
[05:13] <miguelkj> See, some of the cases discussed there we have taken care of upstream
[05:14] <ajmitch> there are only 3 or so in the mono packaging group
[05:14] <ajmitch> it shouldn't be too hard to convince them
[05:14] <miguelkj> Will talk to them
[05:14] <miguelkj> What are their email addresses?
[05:15] <tseng> http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/pkg-mono-devel is the list
[05:15] <miguelkj> Thanks Tseng
[05:16] <miguelkj> Will go watch the daily show now
[05:16] <miguelkj> Be back afterwards
[05:16] <tseng> no, thank you.
[05:16] <duncanm> haha
[05:22] <bluefoxicy> tseng:  yo
[05:23] <bluefoxicy> is XSS a bug or an exploit?
[05:23] <tseng> hi blue
[05:23] <tseng> cross site scripting?
[05:23] <bluefoxicy> I say it's a bug because . . . it looks like a bug . . . and leads to infoleak or privesc
[05:23] <bluefoxicy> yeah
[05:23] <tseng> it depends
[05:23] <bluefoxicy> but infoleak can lead to privesc o.o
[05:23] <tseng> some XSS is more malicious than others, no?
[05:24] <bluefoxicy> yeah but-- *sigh*
[05:24] <bluefoxicy> tseng:  http://usrbac.sourceforge.net/misc/www/security.html
[05:24] <bluefoxicy> tseng:  more of my toys
[05:24] <bluefoxicy> I have no idea what I'm doing
[05:26] <tseng> nite lamont
[05:26] <bluefoxicy> hmm.  OK, since XSS can be "fixed" and has no "bug" behind it I'm going to call it a bug?  (I don't know how XSS happens)
[05:26] <tseng> sure, call it a bug.. can you do this in the other chan?
[05:27] <bluefoxicy> I've been +q'd for like 4 days or something
[05:27] <bluefoxicy> I think they made it permenant
[05:27] <tseng> oh.
[05:37] <thully> any developers here?  if there is, I have a local.conf that may possibly work for enabling autohinter only at large point sizes
[05:43] <tseng> jdub: =/
[05:44] <tseng> jdub: configure: error: Library requirements (libpanelapplet-2.0) not met;
[05:45] <tseng> missed that one, part of the applet switchover
[06:09] <aj> daniels: around?
[06:12] <jdub> tseng: oof, it's an applet now?
[06:12] <tseng> jdub: yes
[06:12] <tseng> jdub: but the notification is still there.
[06:12] <jdub> oh
[06:12] <jdub> weird
[06:12] <tseng> if you prefer
[06:12] <jdub> how does that work?
[06:12] <jdub> oh
[06:12] <jdub> ok
[06:12] <tseng> its a command line switch
[06:12] <tseng> i have a new package, unless you want to just fix locally and reupload
[06:13] <jdub> shell-init: error retrieving current directory: getcwd: cannot access parent directories: No such file or directory
[06:13] <jdub> ^ getting a lot of that during upgrade
[06:13] <jdub> tseng: 0ubuntu2?
[06:13] <tseng> yes
[06:14] <tseng> upgrade of tomboy there?
[06:15] <jdub> uploaded
[06:15] <tseng> thanks
[06:16] <daniels> aj: what up
[06:16] <aj> daniels: i have logs/conf; where you want them?
[06:17] <daniels> aj: daniel.stone@ubuntu.com
[06:19] <mdz> jdub: that'll happen if you run the upgrade from a nonexistent directory :-P
[06:19] <aj> oh, hrm, do you want debconf stuff too?
[06:19] <jdub> mdz: ... bong! i am too ;)
[06:19] <mdz> aj: he doesn't, typically
[06:25] <daniels> aj: nah, it should be fine, thanks
[06:25] <daniels> mdz: the last of my amd64 bits are arriving tomorrow, so I'm going to tackle ddcprobe-on-amd64
[06:26] <fabbione> can anybody explain to 2124 submitter the meaning of WONTFIX?
[06:26] <mdz> nice
[06:27] <fabbione> (morning btw :-))
[06:28] <daniels> mdz: ironically, the x850 xt pe is on order (not that I'll be able to afford it until next payday, which is when it rolls in, anyway), so I'm going to be using a PCI video card in there for a while ;)
[06:28] <mdz> x850 xt pe?
[06:28] <aj> daniels: on its way
[06:29] <daniels> mdz: the best radeon money can buy
[06:29] <daniels> mdz: pcie
[06:29] <mdz> ah
[06:29] <daniels> aj: thanks
[06:29] <mdz> drivers?
[06:29] <daniels> mdz: 2d
[06:29] <daniels> mdz: (and fglrx)
[06:29] <daniels> mdz: but yeah, i believe it will be faster to run a shadow framebuffer in system memory with the cpu doing all the operations than to use pci
[06:30] <jdub> wjpa
[06:32] <daniels> aj: oh right, *that* bug
[06:34] <jdub> whoa
[06:34] <jdub> gregkh@novell.com
[06:35] <fabbione> good
[06:36] <fabbione> inotify sparc64 support is upstream as 3 minutes ago
[06:36] <jdub> woo :)
[06:36] <daniels> jdub: woah
[06:37] <tseng> g'nite dudes
[06:47] <aj> daniels: would've been much less of a problem if i'd actually noticed xorg.conf hiding, rather than saying "hrm, /etc/X11/X*... nope, nothing XOrgish, there, must be reusing the config file..."
[06:56] <jba> thanks for your help today guys
[06:56] <jba> gotta head off now
[06:56] <daniels> heh :) i wanted to punt it to /etc/xorg.conf; /etc/X11/xorg.conf was the compromise
[06:56] <jba> see you all later
[07:45] <sivang> morning all
[07:52] <sivang> hmm, am I too early? ;-)
[07:53] <zenrox> hep
[07:53] <zenrox> yep
[07:54] <sivang> zenrox: heh, hi , 'sup?
[07:54] <zenrox> not much
[07:55] <zenrox> just listing to lugradio
[07:55] <sivang> eh, what's on now?
[07:56] <zenrox> go get it and listen to it and find out
[08:02] <sivang> zenrox: do you know the episode which contains the interview with sabdfl?
[08:02] <infinity> daniels : You're building a PCIe amd64?.. Which motherboard did you get?
[08:03] <HrdwrBoB> nforce :(
[08:03] <zenrox> sivang, 2 ep 17 for the conical guy and 2 ep 18 for some other guy  invoulved with ubuntu
[08:04] <infinity> HrdwrBoB : Ick.  I was looking at the Abit AX8 when I was shopping, but PCIe video cards were so hard to come by (and priced higher, to boot), that I settled on the AGP version of the same.
[08:06] <HrdwrBoB> yeah
[08:06] <HrdwrBoB> now PCIe is easy/cheap (ish)
[08:08] <infinity> I dunno.
[08:08] <infinity> PCIe video cards still seem to carry a premium price over their AGP counterparts.
[08:08] <HrdwrBoB> a 6600GT is the best bang/buck atm and is in PCIe everywhere
[08:08] <HrdwrBoB> not really
[08:08] <infinity> I bought a 6800GT.
[08:08] <HrdwrBoB> the native PCIe stuff is cheaper in some cases
[08:08] <infinity> The PCIe ones seem scarce.
[08:09] <infinity> Despite the fact that the entire 6xxx line is native PCIe, with a PCIe->AGP bridge on the AGP cards.
[08:09] <infinity> Either way, I'm not really concerned.  It'll be a long time before I find something that needs that much bandwidth to the card.
[08:09] <infinity> And when I do, it'll probably be upgrade time again anyway.
[08:11] <HrdwrBoB> currently (at the price list I'm looking at) a 6600GT PCIe is $20AU cheaper than an AGP
[08:11] <HrdwrBoB> but eh
[08:11] <HrdwrBoB> not really a big deal
[08:13] <sivang> zenrox: this is a live radio? I mean, do they broadcast all the time?
[08:13] <zenrox> no
[08:14] <zenrox> prerecorded then thay release
[08:19] <sivang> zenrox: woo, they have some very high upstream
[08:19] <zenrox> ya
[08:19] <fabbione> mjg59: i just saw a huge acpi update in bk... is it something interesting to look at?
[08:19] <sivang> 500Kb/s
[08:19] <sivang> fabbione: morning, how do you feel today?
[08:19] <fabbione> sivang: much better thanks...
[08:22] <sivang> fabbione: great, I'm glad to hear that :)
[08:22] <fabbione> so am i :)
[08:22] <sivang> zenrox: also very high quality stream
[08:22] <zenrox> the oggs are much better
[08:22] <sivang> zenrox: I am only using the oggs :)
[08:23] <zenrox> ya the high quailty oggs are great
[08:23] <zenrox> but its killing my cpu
[08:23] <sivang> zenrox: ah, I have a 2.6G HT machine...
[08:24] <zenrox> 2ghz celron no ht
[08:24] <sivang> zenrox: I'll try to compile gnome-system-tools in the background :)
[08:24] <zenrox> lol
[08:25] <sivang> zenrox: I also designated this machine to be a development system, so got 512MB of ram..which is the minimum for such a system, but the best I could efford :)
[08:26] <zenrox> i have 516 in mine ddrpc 2100
[08:27] <sivang> dholbach: morning!
[08:27] <dholbach> good morning everyone
[08:27] <dholbach> hi sivan!
[08:30] <dholbach> jdub: still there?
[08:30] <sivang> dholbach: 'sup?
[08:30] <dholbach> sivang: guess i need some coffee first :-)
[08:35] <ajmitch> hi dholbach 
[08:36] <dholbach> hi ajmitch
[08:41] <pitti> Morning
[08:41] <ajmitch> morning pitti 
[08:43] <sivang> pitti: morning
[08:44] <pitti> fabbione: do you feel better now?
[08:44] <fabbione> pitti: check your inbox ;)
[08:44] <fabbione> and yes.. i am almost 100%
[08:45] <pitti> nice to hear
[08:45] <pitti> fabbione: btw, no can for the broken sendcmsg compat syscall fixes
[08:45] <fabbione> ok
[08:46] <pitti> fabbione: as I already said in the meeting, I can care for kernel security updates during your honeymoon :-)
[08:46] <pitti> fabbione: that mail was just to inform you about it
[08:47] <sivang> was there a CC meeting yesterday?
[08:47] <sivang> (or TB)
[08:47] <ajmitch> sivang: tomorrow, I think
[08:47] <ajmitch> well, in a few hours
[08:48] <sivang> I recall there was some talks in having a different time for the meeting each time, for benefit of all timezones.
[08:48] <ajmitch> I'd like that
[08:48] <ajmitch> since the meetings are scheduled for 5AM NZ time :)
[08:49] <sivang> yeah, jdub also suffers from that :)
[08:50] <ajmitch> 3am isn't quite so bad
[08:58] <zenrox> ya but 3am is bad if you got to go to work at 5am
[09:00] <infinity> If you go to work at 5am, you need a new job.
[09:04] <zenrox> i am jsut glad i dont need to work
[09:17] <infinity> Oh, hey, neat.  I just converted a friend to Ubuntu.
[09:17] <sivang> infinity: cool
[09:18] <infinity> I like this quote: "This is the first Debian install I've
[09:18] <infinity> actually gotten to work with X at all, so that's something.  I don't
[09:18] <infinity> think that I'VE gotten any smarter in the last few months :)"
[09:19] <infinity> Well, there was also: "It's very... brown."
[09:20] <fabbione> hmmmm
[09:24] <fabbione> elmo, Kamion: ping
[09:55] <fabbione> elmo: please sync silo-installer 1.00 from Debian
[09:55] <magnon> wow, ubuntu-users is larger than my spam folder
[09:56] <magnon> that has never happened for a list
[09:56] <magnon> after checking neither for a week
[10:01] <elmo> fabbione: violates UVF, please mail jdub & mdz, cc me.
[10:02] <fabbione> elmo: it's only for sparc.. unreleased arch.. unofficial arch, but yes i will even if Kamion agreed on the changes
[10:03] <elmo> fabbione: i realise that, but I've been told not to make assumptions on this kind of thing
[10:03] <fabbione> elmo: no problem at all
[10:04] <Mithrandir> hi fabio, gotten well again?
[10:04] <fabbione> Mithrandir: much better thanks
[10:06] <elmo> fabbione: kernel-latest-2.4-sparc is in NEW - do we actually want it?
[10:07] <fabbione> elmo: it's nothing more than a copy of linux-meta
[10:07] <fabbione> i think we should let it in.. it's harmless for us
[10:20] <Kamion> elmo: veto silo-installer
[10:20] <Kamion> it has Ubuntu branding, it should be merged not synced
[10:20] <fabbione> Kamion: did you read my comment in the mail?
[10:20] <Kamion> oh, haven't read mail yet
[10:21] <fabbione> Kamion: it makes more sence to just sync it and rebranding
[10:21] <fabbione> rebrand it
[10:21] <Kamion> no it doesn't, I'll merge in the way I do everything else
[10:21] <fabbione> Kamion: if you prefer that way, is ok with me
[10:22] <Kamion> yes, I definitely do
[10:22] <fabbione> than it is more than fine for me
[10:22] <fabbione> elmo: don't sync please :)
[10:22] <Kamion> I'll do the merge once I've caught up on mail
[10:23] <fabbione> no rush
[10:23] <fabbione> did the kernel work btw?
[10:23] <fabbione> (mad64)
[10:23] <Kamion> I've only just woken up, give me a minute :-)
[10:23] <fabbione> sure
[10:24] <fabbione> even one hour
[10:27] <elmo> fabbione: #6057 is bogus - I've already reported bugs against nagios-plugins and cyrus-sasl, the bug is in them and they need fixed
[10:28] <fabbione> elmo: i already had one on cyrus-sasl
[10:28] <fabbione> i wasn't sure if germinate missed the b-d
[10:28] <ogra> morning
[10:28] <dholbach> hai ogra
[10:29] <elmo> fabbione: nope, I chose to ignore germinate
[10:29] <fabbione> ok
[10:30] <Kamion> fabbione: germinate is responsible for *saying* that something should be in main, but not for actually causing it to be in main - that last step is manual
[10:32] <Kamion> and for the record:
[10:32] <Kamion> <cjwatson@cairhien ~/src/ubuntu/germinate/hoary>$ grep libradius1-dev supported+build-depends
[10:32] <Kamion> libradius1-dev                            | radiusclient                    | nagios-plugins (Build-Depend)            | Turbo Fredriksson <turbo@debian.org>                                      |           29402 |             116
[10:40] <fabbione> roger :-)
[10:41] <dholbach> good morning seb128 :-)
[10:41] <Kamion> I've just made http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/germinate-hoary-output/ look at universe and multiverse as well, so that people can see what's going on without having to run germinate themselves
[10:41] <fabbione> sweet
[10:42] <seb128> morning
[10:43] <seb128> m'rning
[10:43] <Kamion> /sbin/grub-install: line 516:  9593 Segmentation fault      $grub_shell --batch $no_floppy --device-map=$device_map  >$log_file <<EOF
[10:43] <Kamion> fabbione: bzzt
[10:43] <Mithrandir> Kamion: kernel thingythangy?
[10:43] <fabbione> Kamion: is that with -13?
[10:43] <Kamion> ii  linux-image-2.6.10-2-amd64-generic      2.6.10-13     Linux kernel image for version 2.6.10 on x86_64.
[10:43] <Kamion> Linux cittagazze 2.6.10-2-amd64-generic #1 Mon Jan 31 06:52:49 UTC 2005 x86_64 GNU/Linux
[10:44] <fabbione> FUCK FUCK FUCK
[10:44] <Mithrandir> Kamion: it was the noexec flag?
[10:44] <Kamion> Mithrandir: noexec=off works around it
[10:44] <Kamion> but isn't a good long-term solution
[10:45] <Mithrandir> agreed.
[10:45] <fabbione> FIX
[10:45] <fabbione> i can't type
[10:46] <elmo> not being funny, but have you tried a newer grub?
[10:46] <Kamion> I was surprised when you said it was fixed upstream, since there's been no reply to my post on linux-kernel
[10:46] <Kamion> elmo: it's not grub's fault, I've investigated a fair bit
[10:47] <Kamion> elmo: you can chroot into the exact same userspace from an old kernel and get no segfault; the reason for the segfault is that the amd64 kernel isn't honouring the exec-stack bit on ia32 binaries, or something along those lines
[10:47] <Mithrandir> elmo: it's support for the NX bit which makes nested static functions fall over, or something.
[10:47] <Kamion> right
[10:48] <Kamion> nested functions need an executable stack trampoline in order to access local variables of the outer function
[10:48] <Kamion> grub uses those, so unless large bits of it have been totally rewritten not to, a newer version won't help
[10:49] <elmo> you mean it's not respecting PT_GNU_STACK on ia32 binaries?  how are RH, SuSE etc. not seeing this?
[10:49] <Kamion> exactly, and I have no idea, but Debian people are seeing it too
[10:49] <Kamion> and I can reproduce it with stock kernels
[10:49] <Mithrandir> does RH, SuSE ship 2.6.10?
[10:50] <elmo> do they ship ia32 grub?
[10:50] <Mithrandir> elmo: this is a recent change -- 2.6.9-bk2 or something.
[10:50] <Mithrandir> if they want it to fly on amd64, pretty sure.
[10:50] <elmo> Mithrandir: FC4 at least must (not ship, but use)
[10:50] <Mithrandir> elmo: do you happen to know if they use lilo or grub by default?
[10:51] <Kamion> 2.6.9-bk2 was the first release that set noexec=on by default
[10:51] <elmo> nah, I've never even seen a FC install - thom's the fedora fanboy
[10:51] <elmo> Kamion: was it you that pointed me to that cleanup patch related to the PT_GNU_STACK handling?
[10:52] <elmo> 'cos I know exactly which patch you mean, but I don't know if that's 'cos you told me about it, or 'cos I read it on lkml because it involved PT_GNU_STACK
[10:53] <Kamion> elmo: I did mention a patch here that cleaned up noexec kernel parameter handling
[10:56] <fabbione> Kamion: do you have the patch changeset handy again?
[10:56] <fabbione> i want to check some other bits around it
[10:58] <Kamion> fabbione: not at the moment I'm afraid; grep for gnupatch in the logs of this channel maybe?
[10:58] <fabbione> oh right.. and i even have the logs here
[10:58] <Kamion> aha, there it is
[10:58] <Kamion> http://linux.bkbits.net:8080/linux-2.6/gnupatch@41752e4eX1Y99rE-GhfPoRzKlwh85g
[10:59] <fabbione> ah nice
[11:00] <elmo> Kamion: and reverting that does/doesn't fix it?
[11:06] <elmo> boggle
[11:06] <elmo> that patch says noexec=off was default for ia32 bins on amd64 anyway?
[11:06] <carlos> pitti: hi, around?
[11:06] <fabbione> elmo: exactly...
[11:07] <Simira> carlos: morning
[11:08] <carlos> morning
[11:08] <pitti> carlos: yes, hi
[11:08] <Simira> hey
[11:08] <Simira> carlos: care to fix some language-issue on Rosetta? There are too many Norwegian alternatives ;)
[11:09] <Simira> Mithrandir: behave
[11:09] <carlos> Simira: need to finish the import task first :-(
[11:10] <Simira> carlos: ok. Is it possible to put some kind of note to it, that "Norwegian" is not valid for translations, or something?
[11:10] <thom> fedora fanboy indeed
[11:10] <carlos> Simira: we don't have a way to do it atm
[11:11] <Simira> carlos: ok then. I'm reporting a few other bugs as well, now.
[11:11] <elmo> giggle
[11:11] <carlos> Simira: perfect, thanks
[11:11] <Mithrandir> Simira: it ought to be possible to update translations which are there already, though.  And migrate no -> {nb,nn} easily.
[11:12] <Mithrandir> thom: do you know what boot loader FC uses on amd64?
[11:12] <thom> grub afaik
[11:12] <thom> in 32bit mode
[11:12] <Mithrandir> ook
[11:15] <Kamion> elmo: used to be the default; it's noexec=on now
[11:15] <Kamion> elmo: reverting that does fix it, but is badness
[11:15] <Kamion> sivang: say I've got a Hebrew .po file mentioning "" (should be "Debian" from context I think); how would I replace that with "Ubuntu"?
[11:16] <elmo> Kamion: no, if you just revert the whole patch, we'd have working grub and could patch noexec (not noexec32) to be forcibly on
[11:17] <elmo> IYSWIM
[11:17] <sivang> Kamion: 
[11:17] <sivang> Kamion: got that? :)
[11:17] <Kamion> elmo: er, hmm, kinda unconvinced, noexec32 is a good thing and I'd rather fix it to work properly if possible
[11:18] <Kamion> sivang: I can read it - in right-to-left display, is "" the rightmost letter?
[11:18] <sivang> Kamion: yes
[11:18] <Kamion> sivang: ok, cool, thanks a lot
[11:18] <sivang> Kamion: no prob! where is this going to? do you need help with hebrew trans?
[11:19] <Kamion> -"  SILO       ,   - "
[11:19] <Mithrandir> Kamion: noexec32 isn't really important -- nobody sane will run 32 bit stuff anyhow. :)
[11:19] <Kamion> +"  SILO       ,   - "
[11:19] <Kamion> except I think pasting might have done something totally wacky to the RTLness of that
[11:20] <Xof> it looks pretty in iso-8859-1, too
[11:20] <sivang> smurfix: true, I am reading hebrew left to right on IRSSI :) (got used to that already)
[11:20] <sivang> Kamion: yes, the beginning and end
[11:20] <Kamion> my God, it's kind of swapped bits around the word "SILO"
[11:20] <Kamion> looks right in vim/pterm though
[11:21] <elmo> boggle - that looks REALLY ba din irssi
[11:21] <Kamion> sivang: it's in d-i branding in general - basically once I have a rule for converting "Debian" to "Ubuntu" I can apply it everywhere and not have to bother you again. :-) There aren't going to be any funky word-endings or anything?
[11:21] <amu> moins 
[11:22] <sivang> Kamion: not as I can tell, what do you mean funky? ;-)
[11:22] <Kamion> well, like Czech says "Debianu" sometimes
[11:22] <Kamion> is wiki login broken at the moment?
[11:23] <sivang> Kamion: not, hebrew is plain straight for most of it.
[11:23] <Kamion> ok, cool
[11:23] <sivang> Kamion: howevr, thre is somethign there strange like "You system can do" where do is mentioned as in a male addressing, where as system is a female in hebrew
[11:23] <sivang> Kamion: maybe this was cut due to pasting?
[11:24] <sivang> Kamion:    ==<   
[11:24] <Kamion> sivang: hm, looks fine in the editor, I think it's a paste bug
[11:25] <sivang> Kamion: I should finish some of Kinnison's courseware I want to write for him, then you coould join him and study ;-)
[11:25] <Treenaks> sivang: put it online somewhere, so the whole world can learn :)
[11:25] <Kamion> sivang: http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/silo-installer-hebrew.png is how it really looks
[11:26] <sivang> Kamion: cool, notice the "" there? it makes the word "do" in hebrew from male to female addressing. Cool!
[11:26] <sivang> Kamion: so it's fine.
[11:27] <sivang> Treenaks:I will :)
[11:27] <Treenaks> sivang: cool :)
[11:28] <Treenaks> sivang: or you could add to http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Hebrew
[11:29] <sivang> hmm, nice
[11:30] <sivang> wikipedia is phenomenal
[11:30] <dholbach> have a pleasant day - i'm off
[11:30] <sivang> dholbach: bye!
[11:30] <dholbach> bye sivang :-)
[11:32] <Treenaks> too bad only the first chapter really explains something though :(
[11:32] <Treenaks> and not really detailed either
[11:33] <Kamion> incidentally if anyone around here knows how to translate "Debianu" in Czech and/or Slovak, that'd be good too
[11:33] <Kamion> er, translate => change it to be referring to Ubuntu
[11:33] <aj> Ubuntuu? :)
[11:34] <Kamion> "Debiana" in Polish too
[11:34] <Mithrandir> aj: that'd be finnish. :)
[11:34] <Kamion> aj: I considered that briefly and rejected it as improbable, but who knows :)
[11:34] <Treenaks> Kamion: no strange Dutch transformations?
[11:36] <Kamion> Treenaks: not as far as I can tell, I've just got stuff like "Debian-opstartpartitie" => "Ubuntu-opstartpartitie"
[11:36] <Treenaks> Kamion: looks right
[11:41] <Simira> daf, carlos: so, there you go, six bug reports for Rosetta. You won't be bored in a little while, then. :)
[11:41] <daf> gosh!
[11:41] <daf> thanks :)
[11:41] <carlos> Simira: thanks!
[11:41] <carlos> :-D
[11:42] <Kamion> sivang: I've got one string that says "" instead of "" - is that a male/female thing again, and does it apply to "" in the same way?
[11:42] <sivang> Kamion: no, it's like "the debian"
[11:42] <sivang> Kamion: the "" is in the front this time
[11:43] <sivang> Kamion: not sure how you would tranlsat that, could you show me the contexT?
[11:43] <Kamion> " , /boot     ${PARTTYPE}.     , "
[11:43] <Kamion> "        SILO."
[11:43] <Kamion> with the usual inversion crap around ASCII letters
[11:44] <Kamion> right-to-left HURTS MY BRAIN
[11:44] <sivang> Kamion: am reading it LTR ;-)
[11:45] <sivang> Kamion: ok, you can use "" it's the same meaing :)_
[11:45] <sivang> Kamion: which would mean "you will not be able to boot your ubuntu system", in hebrew it's like
[11:45] <Kamion> yeah, that's the English text, thanks
[11:46] <sivang> "you will not be able to boot the ubuntu system of yours" in a hebrew arrangemtns translation..
[11:46] <Kamion> operating vim in RTL is even more confusing, if that's possible
[11:46] <sivang> there are suportive packages, I need to speak tp pitti to include them in the langpack
[11:46] <Kamion> oh it works, it's just weird
[11:47] <sivang> Kamion:, k cool, for anything ping here or in msg :)
[11:47] <Kamion> ta
[11:47] <daniels> Kamion: christ, I could imagine that would screw you up
[11:47] <Kamion> elmo: wiki login doesn't love me at all - I just reset my password and it's still not accepting it
[11:48] <smurfix> Kamion, elmo: Mine doesn't work either
[11:51] <thom> Kamion: by way of a stupid question, could I hack round the usb keyboard problem with some preseeding action? Given the current cd, could i get to the point of having a working sshd?
[11:51] <elmo> Kamion: mmk, one sec
[11:51] <Kamion> thom: preseeding only works if there's a debconf question to preseed
[11:52] <thom> Kamion: i was thinking about the language choices
[11:52] <thom> oh well
[11:52] <thom> i'll try redownloading array 3 and hope that the internet is less broken today
[11:53] <Kamion> thom: oh, yeah
[11:53] <daniels> thom: you can visit here if you want -- i have working internet
[11:53] <Kamion> thom: what kind of system?
[11:53] <daniels> thom: ever thought of moving somewhere with actual bandwidth?
[11:54] <Treenaks> daniels: like Australia?
[11:54] <daniels> fo'sho
[11:54] <pitti> sivang: just tell me the package and I will crank up my langpack-o-matic go generate a new support package :-)
[11:55] <Kamion> thom: if it's a Mac, try booting with 'install preseed/locale=en_GB console-keymaps-usb/keymap=mac-usb-uk'
[11:55] <thom> Kamion: dual G4 mac
[11:55] <thom> Kamion: righto
[11:55] <abelli> fabbione: ding
[11:55] <thom> daniels: shuttit, level3 were just being crap
[11:56] <fabbione> abelli: dong, dang
[11:57] <elmo> thom: err?
[11:59] <thom> elmo: they broke their bgp sessions for a while yesterday
[11:59] <thom> Kamion: right, nice. i have a working keyboard now :-)
[12:00] <Kamion> thom: bonus. would like to see /var/log/*, lspci, lspci -n, maybe lsusb
[12:00] <thom> righto
[12:02] <elmo> Kamion/smurfix: fixed - the lunchpadders br0ke it
[12:02] <elmo> (and fixed it, to be fair ;)
[12:02] <smurfix> thanks
[12:02] <Kamion> heh, ok, thanks
[12:10] <daniels> Kamion: ooi, have you still got xserver-xorg (or xserver-common, preferably) 6.8.1-1ubuntu11 kicking around?
[12:10] <daniels> or anyone?
[12:11] <elmo> ugh, anyone know how to make irssi make the line you're typing be per-window?
[12:12] <Treenaks> elmo: yes, there's a scritp for that
[12:12] <Treenaks> elmo: let me look it up
[12:12] <Kamion> daniels: yes, installed on cittagazze
[12:13] <Kamion> (amd64)
[12:15] <Kamion> oh wow, irssi/screen/pterm reverses the digits in the datestamp when somebody types something involving RTL text
[12:17] <daniels> Kamion: could you please look at line 83?
[12:17] <daniels> if [ $? -ne 0 ] ; then
[12:17] <daniels>     bomb "error while getting options; use \"$PROGNAME --help\" for help"
[12:17] <daniels> fi
[12:18] <Kamion> daniels: of which file?
[12:18] <daniels> 81-83 should look like that; unfortunately a cat/younger sibling attacked that just before ubuntu12, and vim appears to have turned that into 'sudo di' (instead of fi)
[12:18] <daniels> Kamion: ah, sorry, dexconf
[12:18] <Kamion> daniels: looks fine here
[12:19] <elmo> decko: please disable that public away or whatever it is
[12:19] <daniels> Kamion: so it says fi?  thanks
[12:19] <Kamion> daniels: yep
[12:19] <daniels> Kamion: debian/rules now runs dexconf through validate-posix-sh ;)
[12:20] <Kamion> heh
[12:20] <Treenaks> elmo: hm, can't find it..
[12:20] <daniels> mdz: 
[12:20] <daniels>   * Rewrite Debconf logic to write a new xorg.conf if it doesn't exist, and
[12:20] <daniels>     default to using xresprobe (use XORG_FORCE_PROBE=no to disable this
[12:20] <daniels>     behaviour).
[12:20] <elmo> Treenaks: ok, not to worry, I'll have a look myself later.. thanks
[12:23] <elmo> hmm, what's the sanest/cleanest way to get multiple apaches running on different ports and with different configs with our packages?
[12:26] <fabbione> elmo: why multiple apaches?
[12:26] <fabbione> (just curious.. there is no really a sane way to do it)
[12:26] <elmo> fabbione: I want to run a subversion webdav apache, and a 'everything-else' apache server
[12:26] <elmo> 'cos I don't want to chown www-data the subverson repo
[12:27] <elmo> and am quite happy to tell svn folks to use a different port/ip
[12:27] <daniels> you allow commits over webdav?
[12:27] <thom> different config, different init script, and the -f flag
[12:27] <elmo> mmph, ok
[12:27] <thom> daniels: why on earth wouldn't you?
[12:27] <elmo> daniels: err, yes?
[12:28] <daniels> *boggle*
[12:28] <thom> fabbione: how is that not sane?
[12:28] <thom> :-)
[12:28] <daniels> not even fd.o allows that :P
[12:28] <thom> dude, no login accounts. heaven
[12:28] <daniels> true dat
[12:28] <Kamion> uh ... you shouldn't have to chown www-data the repository with subversion 1.1 and fsfs
[12:28] <daniels> i just dislike the idea of web server compromise -> your source is fucked
[12:28] <elmo> Kamion: which so isn't in warty :P
[12:28] <daniels> Kamion: you still will if you need to write to it, no?
[12:28] <Kamion> oh, well, if you're using webdav you do have to
[12:28] <Kamion> svnserve is so much saner though
[12:29] <fabbione> thom: you still need to "replicate" the init script and adapt it to use the -f
[12:29] <elmo> Kamion: requires logins..
[12:29] <HrdwrBoB> elmo: wouldn't you be better off using a different MPM
[12:29] <fabbione> thom: perhaps we can write a better init to look in /etc/apache/sessions.d or something...
[12:29] <HrdwrBoB> and running another user with taht
[12:29] <fabbione> thom: it's not that uncommon to run more than one apache
[12:29] <HrdwrBoB> for the SVN webdav stuff
[12:29] <thom> HrdwrBoB: eh?
[12:29] <fabbione> elmo: make sense
[12:30] <elmo> plus, this has a requirement to replicate an existing setup which is already using webdav, so it's moot
[12:30] <Kamion> elmo: could be restricted to svnserve?
[12:30] <Kamion> bleh, ok
[12:31] <decko> elmo, Sorry, it's not a public away or whatever...
[12:31] <elmo> god damn it.  first cup of tea -> 30 mins.  second cup of tea -> 1 hour.  this is a distrubing pattern of how long I keep forgetting about my tea
[12:31] <daniels> elmo: i think you need a longer attention span
[12:32] <HrdwrBoB> thom: sorry, still a pipe dream, apache2 has a 'perchild' mpm which in theory allows different users to run different virtualhosts, but it has never been released in any usable form
[12:32] <thom> HrdwrBoB: it's probably useable for svn, but i wouldn't trust it
[12:34] <sivang> pitti: sure cool
[12:34] <HrdwrBoB> I'm just a little bitter, it makes apache look like a toy compared to IIS (which does what perchild would do)
[12:37] <elmo> I love when people say things like that
[12:37] <elmo> it may be a toy, but it's a you n (for ridiculously high versions of n) % of the internet's websites run on
[12:38] <Treenaks> HrdwrBoB: I want threadpool + perchild!
[12:38] <Treenaks> HrdwrBoB: with working php!
[12:39] <HrdwrBoB> elmo: I know, this was in a mixed environment in a hosting company. when you have several hundred websites on a machine securing them from each other gets to be pretty important
[12:39] <Mithrandir> thom: the metux mpm ought to work, don't you think?
[12:39] <HrdwrBoB> Treenaks: yes, heaven!
[12:40] <thom> Mithrandir: from what i've seen that lot look insanely incompetent
[12:41] <thom> Treenaks: threadpool is less performant than worker these days
[12:41] <thom> and that's basically what perchild is, yes
[12:42] <Mithrandir> thom: oh?
[12:42] <HrdwrBoB> http://www.metux.de/mpm/en/?patpage=download <- that says it all for metux
[12:42] <Treenaks> thom: oh I'm running worker now.. but that's PHPless
[12:42] <HrdwrBoB> Treenaks: I have used suexec and binfmt with php registered with some success (though obviously it doesn't work for everything)
[12:44] <elmo> fabbione/thom: an $OPTIONS in the init script would be useful
[12:45] <elmo> and, umm, what do I do about the invocations of apache2ctl?
[12:45] <daniels> apache2ctl takes -f as well, IIRC.
[12:50] <elmo> daniels: oh, that's not clear from the manapage
[12:51] <daniels>   -d directory      : specify an alternate initial ServerRoot
[12:51] <daniels>   -f file           : specify an alternate ServerConfigFile
[12:52] <elmo> uh?
[12:52] <elmo> that's not in the apache2ctl manpage dude
[12:52] <daniels> gleaned from apache2ctl -h
[12:52] <elmo>        apache2ctl command [...] 
[12:52] <elmo> and no mention that a) options are accepted, or b) passed onto apache
[12:53] <daniels> wow, that manpage is spondonically shit
[12:54] <rburton> daniels: as bad as the X manpages?
[12:54] <daniels> hah
[12:54] <rburton> surely not!
[12:54] <rburton> i started a list of X manpage crackrot before i gave up with them totally
[12:54] <rburton> i should file lots of bugs
[12:54] <daniels> yeah, don't bother
[12:55] <daniels> well, file lots of bugs if you want
[12:55] <daniels> but don't bother documenting crackrot
[12:55] <daniels> 'clusterfuck' is a good summation
[12:55] <rburton> some of the problems are silly things like typos and missing newlines
[12:55] <rburton> which just make the man page a nightmare to read
[12:55] <daniels> the newlines stuff is pretty much imake being absolutely screwed, and we can't do anything about it
[12:56] <daniels> branden wrote a patch for it, which not only didn't fix the problem, but totally broke utf-8 locales
[12:56] <daniels> i don't think it's fixable without work enough to be roughly equivalent to the time needed to throw imake away
[12:58] <daniels> Kamion: kaping
[01:01] <Kamion> daniels: kapong
[01:01] <Mithrandir> you know it's good when you have gcc command lines which are long enough to fill a 1024x768 pixel pterm window
[01:02] <daniels> Kamion: so, dvorak in d-i ...
[01:02] <daniels> Kamion: any ideas?
[01:02] <daniels> Kamion: looking at #5894
[01:03] <daniels> jbailey: 'morning
[01:03] <sivang> jbailey: morning
[01:03] <Kamion> daniels: console-data contains all those maps
[01:03] <daniels> Kamion: cheers
[01:03] <jbailey> Hey'all. =)
[01:03] <seb128> hello jbailey 
[01:03] <Kamion> daniels: you need to look at both the dvorak and mac-usb-dvorak keymaps, probably
[01:04] <sivang> seb128: hi :)
[01:04] <elmo> daniels: and btw, -f doesn't work with apache2ctl, at leasst not for configtest
[01:04] <daniels> elmo: wack
[01:04] <daniels> Kamion: ok, thanks
[01:05] <fabbione> Kamion: thanks for silo-installer
[01:09] <elmo> dear god
[01:09] <elmo> apache2's init script uses pidof, you evil evil evil people
[01:09] <Kamion> fabbione: np
[01:10] <elmo> "lala, kill apache2 any apache2, absolutely anything that has the name apache2, who cares if it's mine??"
[01:10] <Mithrandir> elmo: p4tch3z accepted.
[01:11] <jbailey> elmo: You have to admit, that thought it tempting sometimes. =)
[01:12] <ajmitch> morning jbailey :)
[01:12] <infinity> elmo : Blame thom.
[01:12] <elmo> infinity: that's my default state
[01:12] <infinity> elmo : Alternately, blame me, if you want it fixed.  But I didn't write it.
[01:13] <daniels> I didn't write it, either.
[01:13] <infinity> elmo : The last bit is the only thing that needs to go.
[01:14] <infinity> elmo : Initially, it compares pidof against the pid file, and then tries to kill if they match (which seems sane)... The last bit where it gives up and says "fuck it, just kill em all" is decidedly less safe looknig.
[01:15] <infinity> elmo : Shall I queue that up for my apache2 upload this week?
[01:16] <elmo> infinity: it'd be nice, IMO, no particular urgency
[01:17] <elmo> I'm never sure about that, daemons exiting with non-zero status are right up there in the "top 5 ways to sideways screw a buildd", but OTOH, it's clearly the right thing todo, esp. if you have a sane-by-default config and it won't error out simply because no apache ever actually started
[01:18] <infinity> If there's no apache running, but it's properly configured, it won't error out.
[01:18] <infinity> If there's none running and it's broken, that's where problems come in.
[01:18] <infinity> I'm undecided on the proper outcome.
[01:18] <infinity> I could exit 0, but echo a warning... A half compromise.
[01:20] <pitti> Hi ogra
[01:21] <infinity> "There were [n]  processes running named 'apache2', however none were killed, as they didn't match your PID file, you may want to examine this situation manually.", or some such.
[01:21] <ogra> hi pitti
[01:21] <infinity> elmo : Does something evilly verbose like that (with an exit 0, to not fuck buildds) seem a reasonable compromise?
[01:21] <jbailey> fabbione: There?
[01:22] <fabbione> jbailey: yup
[01:22] <Kamion> mdz: today's ISO works with no questions in the second stage
[01:22] <jbailey> fabbione: Can you shed some light on why this patch: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=acpi4linux&m=107448387831707&w=2 wouldn't have made it into the kernel?  It seems so clearly like the right thing for early userspace ACPI work.
[01:22] <fabbione> humpf.. new inotify patch breaks the abi
[01:23] <elmo> infinity: does to me
[01:23] <Kamion> mdz: the chief remaining bug is that there's an enormous delay after the apt configuration question when nothing's displayed while it downloads Packages files to test the new sources.list; I need to add a progress bar there somehow
[01:23] <fabbione> jbailey: reading...
[01:24] <infinity> elmo : Alright.  Consider it done.
[01:25] <fabbione> jbailey: i dunno.. the best person to ask is mjg59 
[01:26] <jbailey> fabbione: Cool, thanks.  
[01:26] <fabbione> we need to get some 4cp1 love anyway
[01:27] <fabbione> 2.6.10 isn't the state of the art
[01:27] <jbailey> Dude, 2.6.10 is the suck. =(  2.6.9 worked wondefully on my laptop, 2.6.10 can't tell that I have a battery or an AC adapter.
[01:29] <fabbione> jbailey: patches are welcome :)
[01:30] <jbailey> fabbione: Of course. =)  I only discovered it a week ago when I bumped my laptop to 2.6.10.  I've been working my way through the ,9 -< ,10 changelog to understand where to look but the bloody thing is *long* =)
[01:30] <fabbione> jbailey: not only.. we have a few tons of patches in our tree
[01:31] <fabbione> including a big acpi update
[01:37] <elmo> meh, I can't  use apache2ctl with -f for reload either. I'll have to clone a apache2-svnctl or something
[01:40] <Kamion> has anyone got any further with that udev-forkbomb problem?
[01:41] <Kamion> or whatever it is that's causing the desktop to be unusable for a minute or so after logging in at a fresh installation
[01:42] <Treenaks> Kamion: is that the same problem as the "load but nothing's running" hal upgrade bug?
[01:43] <Kamion> dunno, seems to have appeared around the same time
[01:44] <pitti> Treenaks, Kamion: that's the very same bug, yes
[01:44] <pitti> I started to track it yesterday
[01:44] <pitti> but now security work came in between...
[01:45] <pitti> however, I'm a bit lost with this issue :-(
[01:45] <Kamion> anything I can do to help?
[01:45] <Kamion> (bearing in mind that I know nothing about it ...)
[01:45] <pitti> I already have a proper strace and a debug syslog output
[01:45] <fabbione> jdub: ping
[01:46] <pitti> Kamion: " know nothing about it" -> welcome to the club :-)
[01:46] <Kamion> can you put the strace/syslog somewhere public?
[01:47] <pitti> Kamion: http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/syslog.gz
[01:48] <infinity> elmo : apache2ctl doesn't do much more than "apache2 -k $1" anyway, so there's not much harm in just calling the binary directly, if you want -f
[01:48] <tseng> grr hey can someone help fix my brainfart from last night?
[01:49] <tseng> i made tomboy build-dep on libpanel and not -dev
[01:49] <Kamion> pitti: I assume that's with extra debug in udev; I'm not seeing stuff like that here
[01:49] <pitti> Kamion: right, I compiled a debugging and logging enabled version
[01:49] <pitti> Kamion: however, I ran that one on smurfix' machine
[01:49] <pitti> Kamion: I just can't reproduce the bug on my machine
[01:49] <pitti> Kamion: I tried to up-, down-, sidegrade a dozen of times
[01:50] <pitti> Kamion: however, I don't think that this is a hal bug
[01:50] <pitti> I think the hal upgrade (daemon restart) merely triggers some hotplug situation which causes udev to go mad
[01:55] <sivang> pitti: I am usually reastarting all of my session after a hal upgrade...doesn't work otherwise.
[01:56] <pitti> sivang: why, usually a hal upgrade should work immediately
[01:56] <pitti> sivang: g-v-m should automatically restart
[01:56] <sivang> pitti: never worked for me, the best I could get is killing all nautilus isntances and let them restart.
[01:56] <pitti> sivang: and with this bug, restarting the session is not enough anyway
[01:56] <sivang> hmm, I'll upgrade, see the fun myself :)
[01:57] <sivang> I hope this is not arch specific
[01:57] <pitti> sivang: no, this is moonphase specific
[01:57] <sivang> hehe
[02:02] <mjg59> jbailey: Around?
[02:02] <jbailey> mjg59: Yup!
[02:02] <Mitario> hey everyone
[02:02] <jbailey> mjg59: Are you asking me a new question, or responding to my conversation with Fabio? =)
[02:03] <Keybuk> meh, why the hell isn't evo threading properly anymore :-/
[02:03] <mvo_> hi Mitario 
[02:03] <mjg59> jbailey: Fabio-related stuff
[02:03] <fabbione> mjg59: hey
[02:03] <mjg59> Can you stick up a 2.6.10 dmesg and contents of /var/log/dmesg somewhere?
[02:04] <mjg59> It's an ACPI interpreter regression in 2.6.10, which I /thought/ we had fixed but it seems we don't
[02:04] <fabbione> mjg59: there was a huge acpi commit in bk recently... anything that you should push me?
[02:04] <seb128> Keybuk: have you updated to eds 1.1.4.2 ?
[02:04] <fabbione> it was mentioning something about a regression fix
[02:05] <Keybuk>   Installed: 1.1.4.2-0ubuntu1
[02:05] <seb128> what's wrong ?
[02:05] <Keybuk> they thread, but only up to the third level
[02:05] <mjg59> fabbione: The regression fix stuff was what I pushed you last time
[02:05] <thom> hrm, forkbombing oneself with acpid is probably careless
[02:05] <fabbione> mjg59: ah ok
[02:05] <mjg59> But I'll try with the full patch
[02:05] <Keybuk> and anything deeper just gets attached there
[02:05] <Keybuk> so you see:
[02:05] <Keybuk> message 1
[02:05] <Keybuk>   message 2
[02:05] <Keybuk>     message 3
[02:05] <Keybuk>     message 4
[02:06] <Keybuk>     message 5
[02:06] <seb128> previous version had a bug because they sorted with In-Reply-To to not get the full headers, but that should be fixed now
[02:06] <seb128> hum
[02:06] <seb128> lemme check
[02:06] <jbailey> mjg59: Great.  Send to which address?  
[02:06] <mjg59> jbailey: mjg59@codon.org.uk
[02:07] <thom> mjg59: 6026 is fixed, just gonna upload now
[02:07] <jbailey> mjg59: Note that dmesg is only full of "Method execution failed" bits.  The boot stuff has fallen out of the ring buffer by now.  I can reboot and capture it, though.
[02:08] <mjg59> jbailey: That's /var/log/dmesg
[02:08] <mjg59> (pretty much)
[02:08] <jbailey> mjg59: In vaguely related news, I've been looking at this patch http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=acpi4linux&m=108973961928358&w=2 for a while, and trying to figure out why it didn't get noticed.  It seems like the obvious right thing to do with early userspace booting.
[02:09] <mjg59> Intel will never accept it
[02:10] <seb128> Keybuk: yep, correct, that's broken here too. But at least they are in the threads :p (some days ago it was not even regrouping threads correctly)
[02:10] <Treenaks> mjg59: they should accept it, or beat BIOS writers into writing proper DSDTs
[02:10] <mjg59> Treenaks: They say they prefer the latter, but don't seem to be doing anything
[02:11] <Keybuk> seb128: want a Bugzilla bug for it?
[02:11] <mjg59> thom: Rock
[02:11] <seb128> Keybuk: no, that's fine, I'm opening a bug in bugzilla.ximian.com right now
[02:12] <Keybuk> ok
[02:13] <thom> mjg59: /var/lock/acpid is the lock file, FYI
[02:13] <jbailey> mjg59: Would we consider pulling that patch in?  It would be really nice to open this up a little more sanely than just gluing the DSDT file to the end of the initrd.
[02:13] <Keybuk> thanks dude
[02:13] <jbailey> mjg59: (I can test and all that first, obviously)
[02:18] <mjg59> jbailey: It'd need refactoring to work with the current kernel, but I've no real objection to using it instead (assuming it works)
[02:19] <jbailey> mjg59: Lovely, I'll bring it current and post to bugzilla.
[02:19] <mjg59> As long as initrd-tools gains sensible support
[02:20] <fwiffo> mjg59, jbailey, is the problem you are discussing not the same as bug #5861?
[02:22] <jbailey> fwiffo: I'm getting AE_AML_NO_OPERAND errors, but different methods.  I don't know enough about ACPIs guts to know if that makes it the same error or not.
[02:22] <mjg59> fwiffo: Likely to be
[02:22] <fwiffo> jbailey, ok, me neither :)
[02:36] <Mithrandir> lamont: any ia64 boxes dropping out of the bushes yesterday?
[02:38] <jbailey> lamont: Do you need access to one?
[02:38] <jbailey> err.. Mithrandir ^^
[02:38] <lamont> Mithrandir: the bushes were hiding yesterday...
[02:41] <Mithrandir> jbailey: at some point, it'd be nice to have one for multiarch, yes.
[02:41] <zul> hi everyone
[02:41] <jbailey> Mithrandir: Mine builds the d-i nightlies, so it runs Debian atm, but there's lots of HD space for chroot's and such.
[02:41] <Mithrandir> jbailey: I'll get this working on i386 and amd64 first, but I'll give you a shout.
[02:42] <jbailey> Mithrandir: 'k
[02:42] <fabbione> hey zul
[02:43] <zul> fabbione: how is it going?
[02:44] <Keybuk> hmm, worring
[02:44] <Keybuk> the drop-down on MSN search was my most recent google searches
[02:44] <fabbione> zul: better than usual
[02:44] <zul> good
[02:49] <daniels>               observe "not updating $SERVER_SYMLINK; it is a symbolic" \
[02:49] <daniels>                       "link to a directory"
[02:49] <daniels> why the fuck would anyone ever do that?
[02:52] <doko> mvo_: ping
[02:52] <mvo_> doko: pong
[02:58] <fabbione> ok guys.. we need ACPI and USB fixes... possibly some alsa stuff
[02:58] <fabbione> the new inotify patch breaks the ABI so we have full freedom
[02:58] <fabbione> suggestions?
[02:59] <pitti> powerpc sleep
[02:59] <pitti> just kidding
[02:59] <pitti> argh
[02:59] <daniels> try the patch to rewrite the kernel in C++
[02:59] <daniels> i hear it's really cool
[02:59] <pitti> no, in python
[02:59] <daniels> also, I have some vm rewrite from a guy on the gentoo forums
[03:00] <daniels> speeds things up a hojillion per cent
[03:01] <Kamion>   * Add progress bar support and corresponding templates to apt-setup.
[03:01] <fabbione> daniels: same as i am getting 31337 FPS with glxgear?
[03:01] <Kamion> MMM, EVIL
[03:01] <daniels> fabbione: heheh :)
[03:03] <ogra> fabbione: whats so special about that ?
[03:03] <ogra>  glxgears
[03:03] <ogra> 37489 frames in 5.0 seconds = 7497.800 FPS
[03:03] <ogra> 90911 frames in 5.0 seconds = 18182.199 FPS
[03:03] <ogra> 93257 frames in 5.0 seconds = 18651.400 FPS
[03:03] <ogra> 90150 frames in 5.0 seconds = 18030.000 FPS
[03:03] <fabbione> ogra: the number ;)
[03:03] <ogra> ah...leetspeak...
[03:04] <ogra> i thought the value....
[03:04] <Kamion> ogra: plus daniels hurts people who benchmark using glxgears
[03:04] <ogra> hehe
[03:04] <zul> daniels, it should be re-written in cobol
[03:04] <ogra> Kamion: in fact the above is glxgears at 24x24 ;)
[03:04] <daniels> GLXGEARSISNOTABENCHMARK
[03:05] <fabbione> 37645 frames in 5.0 seconds = 7529.000 FPS
[03:06] <mvo_> 1482 frames in 5.0 seconds = 296.400 FPS
[03:06] <fabbione> mvo_: time to change gfx?
[03:06] <mvo_> fabbione: probably :)
[03:06] <fabbione> mvo_: with a better gfx synaptic will run faster
[03:07] <ogra>  lol
[03:07] <mvo_> even faster than it is now ;) ?
[03:07] <fabbione> no more need to sleep while waiting for the GUI to refresh on your miserable 300 fps
[03:07] <fabbione> :P
[03:08] <fabbione> doko: ping?
[03:09] <fabbione> pitti: benh didn't release anything new
[03:09] <pitti> Hi sabdfl
[03:09] <fabbione> so no ibook "go and get a nap" patch
[03:09] <pitti> :-(
[03:11] <sabdfl> hiya pitti
[03:11] <fabbione> and soon it will be the end of inotify
[03:11] <fabbione> upstream didn't respond either to Jeff or me 
[03:12] <daniels> yo sabdfl
[03:12] <sabdfl> hi
[03:12] <jbailey> fabbione: me?
[03:12] <fabbione> mjg59: do you happen to know if ACPI in 2.6.11-rc2 is safe or is it still buggy?
[03:12] <fabbione> jbailey: sorry.. Jeff as in jdub
[03:12] <fabbione> hey sabdfl 
[03:12] <jbailey> fabbione: No prob.  Just triggered the nick highlight. =)
[03:12] <fabbione> ehhe
[03:12] <fabbione> jbailey: do you like USB?
[03:13] <ajmitch> morning sabdfl 
[03:13] <jbailey> fabbione: Are you asking me if we should get rid of it, or do I use it?  (No, and yes respectively, btw.. *g*)
[03:13] <fabbione> jbailey: would you like to maintain it inside the kernel?
[03:14] <fabbione> (as a subsystem?)
[03:14] <jbailey> fabbione: Errr....
[03:14] <ajmitch> jbailey: you could always just run :)
[03:15] <jbailey> fabbione: Is this one of those game shows when my x-girlfriend for 15 years ago shows up with 4 kids that I didn't know were mine and a DNA test in hand?
[03:15] <zul> heh could be
[03:15] <thully> hi - I MAY have a possible fix to the whole autohinter issue (a way to restrict it to big fonts)
[03:16] <fabbione> jbailey: kinda :-)
[03:16] <Kamion> thully: could you post that to ubuntu-devel@? waiting for somebody appropriate to be around on IRC isn't so ideal ...
[03:16] <Kamion> (I'm not sure who is appropriate, even)
[03:16] <doko> fabbione: pong
[03:16] <thully> It's up on bugzilla
[03:17] <Kamion> ah, ok
[03:17] <fabbione> doko: does the last change to libc6 affect also gcc != 4.0?
[03:17] <jbailey> fabbione: I'm not sure that I have the skills, but I have a non-zero interest in learning them.  I've usually stayed on this side of the kernel-userspace iron curtain.
[03:17] <thully> also, I found a newer version of the trackpoint driver which may fix the issues that forced it to be removed - and adds scroll support
[03:18] <fabbione> thully: it is the same patch you already posted and that i marked as wONTFIX
[03:18] <daniels> thully: dude, I read the mail about autohinter, it's on my TODO
[03:18] <fabbione> reopening the bug on regular intervals doesn't make my decision change
[03:18] <doko> fabbione: no, gcc-4.0 became more strict (fixes an accepts-illegal bug)
[03:18] <fabbione> doko: ok.. thanks
[03:19] <fabbione> jbailey: up to you... it would be nice to get someone to love USB
[03:19] <thully> I reopened it because there is a new version as of 2 days ago
[03:19] <jbailey> fabbione: Lemme chew on the thought.  I'm not running out of tasks atm.
[03:19] <jbailey> fabbione: But many of them are over soonish.
[03:20] <thully> it's same address, but 4K bigger than the previous version (I don't really know C so I don't exactly understand the code that well)
[03:21] <fabbione> thully: the patch can be 3MB bigger.. the problem is still the same
[03:21] <fabbione> the 2 calls in psmouse.c
[03:21] <fabbione> that can misdetect normal ps2 mices
[03:21] <thully> did you look at the new version?
[03:21] <fabbione> so the patch is no go for the inclusion
[03:21] <fabbione> yes i did
[03:22] <daniels> thully: fwiw, we have the same problem with ALPS
[03:22] <thully> new as of Jan 30?
[03:22] <fabbione> thully: yes i read my mails this morning
[03:22] <fabbione> and checked the stuff
[03:22] <thully> OK - will go re-close that now
[03:29] <sabdfl> hi ajmitch
[03:41] <fabbione> there is a new DRM big fat patch...
[03:45] <Treenaks> fabbione: with VIA? :)))
[03:47] <fabbione> http://www.skynet.ie/~airlied/patches/lk_drm/bk_drm_010204.patch
[03:47] <fabbione> Treenaks: check it there :-)
[03:48] <Treenaks> fabbione: 
[03:48] <Treenaks> fabbione: "via" -> not found :(
[03:48] <Treenaks> fabbione: (oh well, it's security-holey anyway)
[03:49] <fabbione> ehh
[04:26] <thully> how are the newest daily builds?  are the current hoary install/hoary live builds working decently?
[04:31] <Kamion> EXT2-fs: hda10: couldn't mount because of unsupported optional features (4).
[04:31] <Kamion> thully: current install CD works, haven't tried live
[04:32] <Kamion> ^-- did somebody add a pile of ext2 patches? that's the result of trying to mount a freshly-created Ubuntu partition in Debian
[04:32] <Treenaks> Kamion: nice
[04:32] <azeem> Kamion: ext2 got modified between 2.6.9 and 2.6.10, yes
[04:33] <azeem> dunno if it breaks backwards-compatibility, I just noticed it when I tried to apply another ext2-related patch
[04:33] <Kamion> crap, that's inconvenient
[04:34] <Kamion> that presumably also means that a warty installation cannot now mount a hoary ext3 installation
[04:35] <zul> jbailey: are you in ontario?
[04:35] <Kamion> oh, never mind; that feature flag is EXT3_FEATURE_COMPAT_HAS_JOURNAL. mount -t ext3 fixes it
[04:36] <Kamion> I wonder why mount didn't spot that automatically though
[04:37] <jbailey> zul: Yes, Toronto.
[04:38] <zul> jbailey: cool im in ottawa
[04:38] <dilinger> zul: *poke*
[04:38] <jbailey> zul: Nice!  Perhaps I'll meet you next time I'm in town.  I'm going to try to get to GCC summit and OLS again this year.
[04:38] <dilinger> zul: any luck w/ the config tool stuff?
[04:39] <zul> dilinger: havent had time to this week been busy with work and having the flu
[04:39] <zul> jbailey: cool its expensive though ;)
[04:40] <jbailey> zul: Yeah, I know. =(
[04:40] <dilinger> oh, that sucks.  well, get better
[04:40] <zul> dilinger: trying to
[04:41] <zul> dilinger: what about u?
[04:42] <dilinger> oh, i hadn't intended to work on it just yet.  there are a few items higher up on my todo queue that i need to take care of
[04:42] <zul> ah i cd
[04:42] <zul> s/cd/c/
[04:47] <mdz> morning
[04:47] <Treenaks> hi mdz 
[04:47] <sivang> mdz: mornig
[04:47] <sivang> err, morning
[04:48] <sabdfl> elmo: how big is an archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu mirror now? want to update the web page
[04:48] <sabdfl> also, is the list of mirrors on the web page complete?
[04:49] <sabdfl> mdz: morning
[04:49] <pitti> Hi mdz!
[04:51] <aj> mdz: hello :)
[04:52] <aj> mdz: so, we were just discussing apt-secure in sarge on #debian-release :)
[04:52] <zul> morning
[04:52] <mdz> aj: have you decided not to try to release this year? ;-)
[04:53] <mdz> aj: how long do you think it would take to work out the mirroring issues?
[04:53] <aj> mdz: eh, everytime i think of doing anything debian related i think how long it's taken for Release sigs to still not have gotten anywhere and don't bother...
[04:54] <aj> mdz: didn't we already figure them out?
[04:54] <aj> mdz: it'd take two days to make those changes if there was any point. (one day to implement, see what breaks; one day to fix)
[04:54] <mdz> aj: I mean implementing them
[04:54] <mdz> aj: I thought they required changes on the remote ends
[04:56] <aj> mdz: eh, not necessarily
[05:07] <Kamion> mdz: oh, there'll be an issue with sending the X_SAVE command via passthrough - the debconf confmodule rejects commands it doesn't understand
[05:16] <thully> hi - does anyone know what the best live cd/install builds are - the current live cd is broken (2/1 hoary) and I think the install cd may be also
[05:17] <Kamion> how so?
[05:17] <Kamion> I did an install with the current install CD earlier today
[05:17] <Kamion> (successfully)
[05:18] <lamont> haggai: you about?
[05:19] <haggai> lamont: yes
[05:19] <mjg59> fabbione: No idea
[05:19] <Kamion> thully: there's an issue with udev after the install; it seems to be somewhat hardware-dependent and for me it only makes things slow for a minute or so after the install. pitti's been working on it a bit, but nobody knows the exact cause yet
[05:20] <lamont> haggai: oo.o build-depends: libneon23-dev... how hard would it be to make that libneon24-dev???
[05:20] <mjg59> fabbione: Current 2.6.10 packages work fine on my hardware, so I'm having trouble working out what's broken
[05:20] <Kamion> I'm intending to block Array CD 4 on that issue, so ...
[05:20] <pitti> Kamion: my problem is that I can't reproduce it at all
[05:20] <fabbione> mjg59: ok
[05:21] <haggai> lamont: quite hard.  It's been done for oo2
[05:21] <mjg59> fabbione: This evening is being spent on fixing T-series power draw in ACPI, I'll move on to the general stuff tomorrow
[05:21] <lamont> haggai: ok
[05:21] <haggai> lamont: but needed several upstream changes.  rene already discussed it and decided to stick with 23 for 11
[05:21] <haggai> neon 23 for 1.1
[05:21] <ogra> Treenaks ?
[05:21] <thully_> just lost my connection - which live CD build is best?
[05:22] <Kamion> thully: there's an issue with udev after the install; it seems to be somewhat hardware-dependent and for me it only makes things slow for a minute or so after the install. pitti's been working on it a bit, but nobody knows the exact cause yet
[05:22] <Kamion> thully: if that's the breakage you're referring to; you didn't elaborate when I asked
[05:23] <thully_> Ok - I lost my connection
[05:23] <Kamion> array-3.5-live is stable, although there's localisation breakage; array 4 is the next milestone and will be tomorrow + whenever the udev bug gets squashed
[05:24] <thully_> will array 4 for install be out too?
[05:26] <Kamion> thully: the intent is to release them simultaneously from now on
[05:26] <lamont> thully: live and install arrays release together.
[05:26] <lamont> execpt that live-3.5 was kinda really late... :-)
[05:27] <thully_> there was no install-3.5
[05:28] <thully> ok - leaving now...
[05:41] <dholbach> re
[05:46] <tseng> hi dholbach 
[05:47] <mdz> tseng: /join #ubuntu-meeting if you're around
[05:47] <mdz> dholbach: and you as well
[05:51] <thom> hey, if i boot an smp kernel on ppc , i get two penguins
[05:51] <thom> score
[05:52] <Kamion> thom: symmetric multi-penguins
[05:55] <thom> *g*
[06:00] <thom> Kamion: oh, www.clearairturbulence.org/d-i.tgz  is the logs and so on for that g4 that you asked for
[06:02] <elmo> thom: a2enmod could do with some variabalizing
[06:02] <elmo> i.e. so I can just change the /etc/apache2/ dir in one place
[06:02] <infinity> thom : It could do with a lot of stuff.
[06:02] <thom> elmo: it needs to be thrown out and jumped up and down on, but yes
[06:02] <infinity> s/thom/elmo/
[06:02] <infinity> elmo : I can, however, fix that one small issue on the next upload.
[06:02] <thom> i need to finiosh the python version
[06:02] <infinity> Replacing it completely sounds better.
[06:03] <elmo> yeah, I'm just whining about the small things as I continue my two-apache server adventure
[06:03] <infinity> thom : No debconf version, a la apache-modconf?
[06:03] <infinity> elmo : Feel free to put every whine/bitch in an email to me.
[06:03] <thom> infinity: it'll use debconf for the front end
[06:03] <thom> infinity: i'm more interested in doing dependency tracking and so on for hte moment
[06:03] <infinity> elmo : I may as well polish stuff up as best as can be done for Sarge/Hoary, before we scrap it all and start over. :)
[06:04] <infinity> thom : Dependency tracking is much needed, yes.  We have a few open bugs relating to it.
[06:04] <thom> yeah
[06:04] <thom> it mostly works, too
[06:04] <infinity> Spiff.
[06:04] <infinity> How are you declaring deps?  Parsed comments in foo.load, or an info file, or something?
[06:04] <elmo> infinity: uh, scrap it?
[06:05] <infinity> elmo : Well, scrap bits of it. :)
[06:05] <infinity> elmo : Like a2enmod.
[06:05] <thom> scrap the code, keep the name ;-)
[06:05] <elmo> oh

[06:05] <elmo> I thought you meant apache3 or something ;P
[06:05] <infinity> Oh.
[06:05] <infinity> No. :)
[06:06] <thom> infinity: for the minute, command line arguments, because it's easier to test ;-)
[06:06] <infinity> thom : Ahh.  How do you envision the final product?
[06:06] <infinity> thom : info files in /usr/lib/apache2/modules would work.  As would comments in .load...
[06:07] <infinity> I'm undecided as to which is less intuitive for people doing by-hand module installs.
[06:07] <thom> i'm leaning towards the latter, tbh
[06:07] <infinity> Works for me.
[06:07] <thom> it seems more likely that people will think of those (to me anyway)

[06:08] <infinity> People are more likely to read other .load files as examples than go digging in /usr/lib
[06:08] <thom> also, we can document in readme.etc and readme.debian, and hope that people bother reading either
[06:08] <thom> yeah, that's what i though
[06:08] <infinity> People read?
[06:08] <thom> infinity: some do
[06:08] <infinity> I'd like to meet these people.
[06:08] <infinity> And shake their hands.
[06:08] <infinity> All three of them.
[06:08] <thom> infinity: they're not php users, mind ;-)
[06:08] <infinity> (three people, not people with three hands)
[06:09] <seb128> daniels: around ?
[06:09] <infinity> seb128 : He claimed he was going to bed a coulpe of hours ago.
[06:09] <seb128> k
[06:09] <seb128> thanks
[06:09] <infinity> I wonder if there's a way to unlearn Manoj's typing skills.
[06:09] <infinity> I've been getting worse lately.
[06:10] <thom> infinity: you're approaching raster's "skill" level
[06:10] <infinity> Say it ain't so.
[06:11] <infinity> Anyhow, after I kick off yet another GCC build, I'm heading to bed.
[06:11] <infinity> thom : I wouldn't mind having a gander at this fabled a2enmod v2 sometime.
[06:11] <thom> 'night
[06:12] <thom> infinity: it's in the source package
[06:12] <thom> for apache2
[06:12] <infinity> ...
[06:13] <infinity> Hiding, I presume? :)
[06:13] <thom> infinity: debian/a2-scripts
[06:13] <tseng> mdz: im off for lunch if im no longer needed, ill read the log later. thanks
[06:13] <thom> modhandler.py and u-a-m
[06:13] <infinity> Oh, u-a-m.
[06:13] <infinity> Right.
[06:13] <infinity> Silly me.
[06:13] <infinity> thom : Any work on it since then?
[06:13] <infinity> thom : If not, I'll just read that.
[06:14] <thom> no, that's the latest code
[06:14] <thom> it's nigh on a year stale, unfortunately
[06:14] <infinity> Tastes better that way anyway.
[06:14] <infinity> Fresh code is too chewy.
[06:14] <thom> heh
[06:14] <infinity> I'll look at it later.
[06:14] <infinity> 'Night.
[06:14] <thom> cool
[06:18] <Mitario> heyha
[06:31] <mdz> daniels: ping?
[06:39] <infinity> mdz : He's asleep.  It's 3:30am.  I'm asleep too, this is just my daniels responder bot.
[06:45] <dholbach> mvo_: have fun :-)
[07:10] <zul> mako: where is the copy of the coc?
[07:12] <dholbach> zul: http://www.grawert.net/CoC.txt (courtesy by ogra ;-))
[07:12] <zul> thanks dholbach 
[07:13] <T-None> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct
[07:14] <T-None> a convenient way to sign & mail it can be: lynx -dump http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct | gpg --clearsign | mail 
[07:15] <zul> thanks t-none
[07:18] <mako> zul: on the website
[07:18] <zul> yeo got it thanks mako
[07:25] <thom> mjg59: dude?
[07:33] <tseng> hi all.
[07:35] <dholbach> hello tseng
[07:36] <tseng> how does one go about "signing" the CoC?
[07:37] <dholbach> tseng: gpg --sign CoC.txt (from http://www.grawert.net/CoC.txt)
[07:38] <dholbach> dholbach: or fax it to mako :-)
[07:38] <mdz> mako: isn't there a text version that you provide for signing?
[07:43] <zul> heh i still live in the stone age...
[07:45] <tseng> dholbach: and where shall I send CoC.txt.gpg
[07:45] <smurfix> tseng: mako@canonical.com
[07:46] <tseng> works for me.
[07:47] <tseng> and off it goes
[07:54] <tseng> also, is it required to work in a debootstrap chroot? its documented on the motu page, without much reasoning
[07:57] <Kamion> no, as long as you know what you're doing and are careful
[07:58] <thom> tseng: it happens to be a very good way of checking build-deps
[07:58] <tseng> thom: ah, right
[07:58] <thom> but no, not required. just makes life much easier
[07:59] <Kamion> you can build source packages pretty much wherever you like; it only matters for testing
[08:00] <thom> tseng: sbuild or pbuilder are both useful ways of automating the process; 
[08:06] <tseng> thanks dudes.
[08:07] <mako> tseng: you have no signatures on your key?
[08:08] <tseng> no, its new =/
[08:08] <mako> tseng: do you have an old key?
[08:08] <tseng> no.
[08:08] <mako> where do you live?
[08:08] <tseng> central pennsylvania
[08:09] <mako> whats the town?
[08:10] <tseng> York.
[08:10] <fabbione> YEAH
[08:10] <fabbione> http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/people/rml/inotify/v2.6/0.18/inotify-0.18-rml-2.6.10-13.patch
[08:10] <seb128> thom: please fix #6007, that's really annoying
[08:10] <fabbione> with our sparc64 support
[08:10] <fabbione> :)
[08:10] <thom> seb128:RESOLVED/WORKSFORME
[08:11] <thom> :P
[08:11] <seb128> hannnn
[08:11] <thom> seb128: it's actually font dependent, it seems
[08:11] <seb128> seriously, every time I'm in bugzilla I need to click to change a comment
[08:11] <seb128> the cursor jump all around the place with the keyboard
[08:12] <thom> seb128: but i know where the problem is, i'll try to get to it soonish
[08:12] <seb128> oh ok
[08:12] <seb128> that's due some firefox changed in the new uploads ?
[08:12] <seb128> it was not doing it before
[08:12] <thom> yeah, it's pango
[08:12] <thom> IT'S A GTK+ BUG!
[08:13] <seb128> ah ah
[08:16] <tseng> mako: im speaking at a conf with russel coker and todd troxell, could probably get signage, but thats a month away
[08:17] <tseng> mako: have another way to verify out of band?
[08:18] <smurfix> tseng: Can you check biglumber if there's somebody you can get to?
[08:20] <tseng> a few in harrisburg
[08:22] <smurfix> tseng: That should work -- the "normal" out-of-band method is to get a copy of your ID notarized or something, and we don't really hav a procedure for that yet.
[08:22] <tseng> ok.
[08:22] <sabdfl> tseng: where are you based?
[08:22] <tseng> York, PA
[08:22] <mako> sabdfl: all yours at https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewMembersMaintainersDraft 
[08:23] <sabdfl> mako: thanks
[08:23] <mako> where is jblack again?
[08:23] <sabdfl> tseng: are you trying to figure out the web of trust issues?
[08:23] <mako> PA is not so small.. 
[08:23] <tseng> sabdfl: yes.
[08:24] <mako> tseng: any of the people in harrisburg would work i suspect
[08:24] <sabdfl> are there any notaries public close by?
[08:24] <mako> sabdfl: should be at any bank
[08:24] <mako> and usually your own bank will do it for free
[08:24] <sabdfl> or CPA
[08:24] <mako> lawfirm, etc
[08:24] <tseng> there is a notary nearby.
[08:25] <tseng> much closer than h-burg
[08:25] <sabdfl> tseng: if you can get a notarised statement of your ID to me i'll sign your key
[08:26] <sabdfl> key T-Bone
[08:26] <sabdfl> hey even
[08:26] <T-Bone> hey sabdfl! Long time no see ;)
[08:26] <sabdfl> mako: did you see the draft i had sent to the launchpad team previously?
[08:26] <mako> sabdfl: gpg on the mind :)
[08:26] <sabdfl> T-Bone: are you officially a sailor?
[08:27] <T-Bone> sabdfl: well no, otherwise I'd be ditching corpse in Indonesia right now ;P
[08:27] <mako> sabdfl: i did see it.. although i had forgotten about it
[08:27] <T-Bone> sabdfl: quite a lot of thing happened to me last December, hence the blackout on my side
[08:27] <T-Bone> +s
[08:28] <sabdfl> T-Bone: are you back?
[08:28] <T-Bone> i'm front ;)
[08:28] <Kamion> hmph, FAT filesystem autodetection is a nightmare. yay for no sensible magic numbers whatsoever
[08:29] <mako> sabdfl: ok.. almost all of that go in there although the organization is little bit different
[08:29] <T-Bone> sabdfl: roughly put, I'm doing my internship in .fr eventually, and I'm hacking ia64 Ubuntu on my spare time. So far we're getting very close to have a fully fonctionnal installer for hoary
[08:29] <mako> sabdfl: ergh.. almost all of it got in there
[08:29] <sabdfl> Kamion: you can't search for "this is patented technology.."?
[08:29] <mako> sabdfl: the major difference is that i dropped committer
[08:29] <Kamion> haha
[08:29] <sabdfl> mako: any substantial differences? i would like just one canonical version :-)
[08:29] <T-Bone> Kamion: i'll get back to you pretty soon btw ;)
[08:29] <sabdfl> mako: dropped it?
[08:30] <mako> sabdfl: well, i took it out of the proposed current published version because we don't have the infrastructure to support it yet
[08:30] <mdz> sabdfl: more like "didn't document it fully because it doesn't actually exist, and the implementation will probably influence the process"
[08:30] <sabdfl> T-Bone: ok cool, glad to hear you are on it
[08:30] <sabdfl> ok
[08:30] <sabdfl> WHUI
[08:31] <mako> sabdfl: we have maintainers (which are uploaders in your draft) and that's it
[08:31] <T-Bone> sabdfl: well, the bootloader installation is the last remaining issue, so that's not much indeed ;)
[08:31] <sabdfl> ok
[08:31] <mako> sabdfl: i figured adding committers when we could support them would make more sense.. ther's no sense is approving people to be a committer when that's not somethignw e can support
[08:31] <sabdfl> and until we have a revision control system, committers are meaningless
[08:31] <sabdfl> ok
[08:31] <mako> exactly
[08:31] <sabdfl> 356 people in #ubuntu
[08:32] <Kamion> as far as I can tell the best you can do is check for 0x55 0xAA at the end of the DOS boot sector, and then go through and audit every bleeding fields
[08:32] <mako> so it's excised permently, it's still on the main wiki page
[08:32] <Kamion> s/s$//
[08:32] <mako> sabdfl: it's still documented in the main wiki page but the Official Document we can keep up to date
[08:33] <mako> sabdfl: there are a few minor things that are in your draft things like planet, etc.. i can go through and compare if you'd like and try to move things in
[08:34] <T-Bone> Kamion: would there be some way to link mptscsih's load with mptbase's one in hotplug? ie: "load mptscsih when loading mptbase" ?
[08:35] <mako> sabdfl: the current draft doesn't quantify a minimum letter of recommendations/letters of endorsement for members but i suspect that the CC would be happy with that change
[08:35] <sabdfl> mako: let me have a once-over, then yes, please merge in new ideas from that draft
[08:35] <sabdfl> mako: i think we want to introduce the letters of support once we have grown a bit
[08:35] <mako> elmo requested we "beef up the importantance of testimonals"
[08:36] <sabdfl> we need to keep the process lightweight but grow on the basis of known-quantity-quality
[08:36] <mako> at the moment, it just says that they're extremely helpful
[08:36] <sabdfl> once we have a stable core group, we formalise the process a lot more
[08:36] <sabdfl> i guess mdz wants the doc to reflect *current* policy
[08:36] <sabdfl> but it would be useful to have a doc which outlines intended stable-state policy
[08:37] <mako> ok.. well in your draft, there is a requirement for a signed/faxed letter from ubuntites.. in mine, it says anyone can do it
[08:37] <sabdfl> elmo: i understand the importance of testimonials, right now we should be fast-tracking folks who we *personally know* are good
[08:37] <sabdfl> or who have demonstrated real skill
[08:37] <mdz> I just want to have a step-by-step doc that people can look at and see what they truly need to do, today, to get involved
[08:37] <sabdfl> once the group is bigger we'll need that more rigorous process
[08:37] <elmo> sabdfl: no objection to that - I was saying testimonials are going to be an important part of scaling the process up
[08:37] <mdz> which I think mako's doc does
[08:37] <elmo> or was trying to say
[08:38] <sabdfl> elmo: agreed
[08:39] <tseng> sabdfl: sorry to be a pain, do you have an idea how this is going to work?
[08:39] <tseng> i go to the notary, present proof of ID, and they will fax you something possibly?
[08:40] <sabdfl> tseng: take a copy of the code of conduct, and sign it in front of them
[08:40] <sabdfl> i think they will notarise that signature as coming from you
[08:40] <sabdfl> in addition, include on that paperwork your GPG key id
[08:40] <sabdfl> have them notarise that specifically
[08:41] <sabdfl> i'm not sure of the language, draft something up together with your friendly notary
[08:41] <sabdfl> it needs to contain:
[08:41] <sabdfl>  - the CoC
[08:41] <sabdfl>  - your full name
[08:41] <sabdfl>  - your GPG id
[08:41] <sabdfl> then send me that original thing, i can sign your key, and i think we are all set
[08:42] <sabdfl> this is just to bootstrap you into the keyring
[08:42] <sabdfl> elmo might have some additional suggestions after his palpitations settle down
[08:42] <tseng> heh.. this will be snail mail then?
[08:44] <sabdfl> tseng: yes, to london should be quick though
[08:44] <smurfix> tseng: yep. Notarys' seals don't fax very well. :-/
[08:44] <tseng> ill type this up quick and maybe it can be a draft for future folks
[08:45] <tseng> that run into this problem.
[08:48] <mako> sabdfl: want to go through the rest of the differences?
[08:49] <YokoZar> I'm getting this error when building my package (the .deb file is still there, and works, but it doesn't let me enter my key): dh_clean: I have no package to build
[08:49] <sabdfl> mako: i'm picking my way through this slowly, will ping you when i'm done
[08:49] <YokoZar> make: *** [install-arch]  Error 1
[08:49] <mako> sabdfl: cool
[08:50] <dholbach> YokoZar: what does your  debian/control  look like? can you put it somewhere on the web?
[08:51] <YokoZar> dholbach: deb-src http://tuzakey.com/~scott/apt source/
[08:51] <YokoZar> package winetools
[08:53] <YokoZar> dholbach: find it?
[08:54] <dholbach> YokoZar: try   Section: otherosfs   and   Architecture: any   (in  debian/control )
[08:54] <sabdfl> mako: am using the terminology "confirm... nominations"
[08:54] <dholbach> YokoZar: there's no  contrib/...  here
[08:54] <YokoZar> oh heh
[08:54] <tseng> sabdfl: i have pasted the CoC into oowriter
[08:55] <tseng> sabdfl: and at the end of the doc, i have :
[08:55] <tseng> This document verifies that the following public key belongs to Brandon Hale.
[08:55] <tseng> pub  1024D/D0DC9743 2005-01-27 Brandon Hale <brandon@smarterits.com>
[08:55] <tseng>      Key fingerprint = 29A6 C717 110B 1F37 4E60  2F4A 8A5A 6772 D0DC 9743
[08:55] <YokoZar> dholbach: architecture: any in the package desc or at the top?
[08:55] <dholbach> YokoZar: and you don't have any  Makefile ?
[08:55] <YokoZar> dholbach: gives the same error by the way
[08:55] <tseng> just to be totally clear, sign it just below this, have it notarized, and mail to you
[08:55] <YokoZar> Nope, the package is just a bunch of scripts
[08:58] <sabdfl> tseng: yes, as long as the doc includes the things I described, this should be absolutely fine
[08:58] <YokoZar> I guess I could just try moving everything into install-indep, since it really isn't an arch package.
[08:59] <tseng> sabdfl: wonderful, ill have it done and will catch up with you about mailing later. thanks for your help
[09:00] <T-Bone> Kamion: ping?
[09:00] <YokoZar> dholbach: Still with me?
[09:01] <sabdfl> mako: it says maintainers must be confirmed by both CC and TB
[09:01] <sabdfl> this means that a person would have to go:
[09:01] <sabdfl>  - CC for member
[09:01] <sabdfl>   - TB for maintainer
[09:01] <sabdfl>   - CC for maintainer
[09:01] <sabdfl> which seems silly to me
[09:01] <mako> sabdfl: i argued against that
[09:01] <dholbach> YokoZar: yes - lets move to a query
[09:01] <mako> sabdfl: but elmo felt strongly about it
[09:01] <sabdfl> i thought the member (cc) and maintainer (tb) approach was simpler
[09:02] <sabdfl> ok
[09:02] <mako> sabdfl: that was in the original draft at the beginning of the meeting
[09:02] <sabdfl> cc - tb - elmo :-)
[09:02] <mako> sabdfl: if you're unconvinced, you might want to look over taht part of the log
[09:02] <sabdfl> i understand elmo's reservations
[09:03] <mako> the basic argument was that (a) elmo doesn't want to a vote for membership to translate into a vote maintainership
[09:03] <sabdfl> my view is that the tb should not approve a maintainer they are not certain about
[09:03] <mako> and (b) there aren't enough people on the tb that have day-to-day working in the distribution
[09:03] <sabdfl> but... they can look to the references / testimonials
[09:03] <sabdfl> and ask their own questions
[09:03] <sabdfl> and look at packages
[09:03] <mako> i'm not really the person you need to convince here
[09:03] <sabdfl> right
[09:04] <mako> i'd be happy to relax that
[09:04] <mako> at the moment, we can clarify that it's for uploaders to main
[09:05] <mako> the argument in favor is, yes it's silly and annoying but we are talking about the ability to upload any package into ubuntu
[09:05] <mako> and if there's any place to be silly and annoying its here
[09:06] <sabdfl> true
[09:07] <sabdfl> it works ok if we have the tb and cc both at a meeting
[09:07] <sabdfl> and it can all be done right there
[09:07] <mako> i suspect in most cases, taht will happen
[09:07] <sabdfl> i guess it would work ok if we had a launchpad process that made this less irc-awkward too
[09:08] <mako> at least with our current schedule
[09:08] <mako> the chance of kamion, elmo and myself being on during a mid-day tb meeting on tuesday is extremely high
[09:09] <mako> and matt, who is really the only tb member who is in an awkward timezone, has been super about making the cc meetings
[09:15] <sabdfl> nonetheless, it seems awkward to me
[09:15] <sabdfl> if we need to grow the tb, we should do so, so they can handle the decision w.r.t. maintainers
[09:16] <sabdfl> they are of course welcome to ask people their opinions
[09:16] <sabdfl> so i imagine they would ask elmo et al whether they are confident in the candidate
[09:16] <sabdfl> cc - tb - cc seems too bureaucratic to me
[09:17] <sabdfl> i'll raise this again at the next cc meeting
[09:17] <sabdfl> mako: done, go ahead
[09:17] <sabdfl> would you not like to restructure that document?
[09:18] <sabdfl> perhaps pull out the process docs as separate pages?
[09:18] <mako> sabdfl: sounds fine
[09:18] <mako> sabdfl: that's how it used to be
[09:18] <mako> sabdfl: mdz suggested it be on in one page
[09:18] <sabdfl> anyhow, in substance i'm happy, with the expressed reservation about the return-to-cc process
[09:18] <mako> sabdfl: we can bring it up again
[09:19] <sabdfl> if you could add some of the nice stuff about planet etc in, as FUTURE sections, so people know where we are headed, that would be great
[09:19] <mako> sabdfl: and appointing a bonus TB people or two may be a solution that makes elmo happy
[09:19] <sabdfl> then please point cprov and salgado at the updated doc
[09:19] <mako> sabdfl: one up on the wiki hierarchy is where that should go i suspect
[09:19] <mako> let me look over the diff
[09:21] <mako> sabdfl: looks great
[09:21] <sabdfl> ok
[09:22] <sabdfl> i think it could be clearer
[09:22] <sabdfl> Membership
[09:22] <sabdfl> MembershipProcess
[09:22] <sabdfl> Maintainership
[09:22] <sabdfl> MaintainershipProcess
[09:22] <sabdfl> Canonical
[09:22] <sabdfl> SupaPreHoary
[09:22] <mako> it used to have a link under membership to the membership process page
[09:22] <mako> and same with maintainers
[09:23] <sabdfl> lets keep them on one page but tighten up the text
[09:24] <sabdfl> there is a bit of repetition
[09:24] <mako> i can try to do a bit of reorganization today and then move it into the website
[09:24] <sabdfl> thanks mako
[09:25] <mako> i also need to send a message to the -users list irt to the reply-to
[09:25] <mako> sabdfl: did you want to add anything about that?
[09:25] <mako> sabdfl: you seemed to be inching toward suggesting that we should bounty reply-to for thunderbird
[09:26] <sabdfl> mako: yes
[09:26] <mako> which is the client we ship that is missing this
[09:26] <mako> i think in any case, this is a good idea
[09:26] <sabdfl> other than that, i think it's worth stating why we have the current approach
[09:26] <mako> but matt argued that it (a) doesn't solve the current problem and (b) was skeptical it would really solve the problem with user
[09:27] <mako> so the decision was to flip the switch for reply-to.. since the negative impact would be pretty minimal (looking at the number of people who use a real reply-to on users now)
[09:27] <mako> just for users
[09:27] <metalikop> quick question, I went to debian-devel for it, but they were little help.  what's the proper procedure for setting setuid bit on a file while making a .deb?
[09:27] <sabdfl> i don't mind one way or another, i think the current config is more correct, given that the -users list is not a tightly bound community (it has WAY too much traffic for that)
[09:27] <sabdfl> mako: reply-to-list
[09:27] <sabdfl> for t-bird
[09:28] <mako> sabdfl: but mdz experience, and mine as well, is tons of people replying to us offlist anyway :)
[09:28] <mako> sabdfl: cool.. so if ok with that, i'll mention that too
[09:28] <dholbach> wb ogra :-)
[09:28] <sabdfl> that's because the current setting is to reply offlist, right?
[09:28] <mako> sabdfl: i'm going to send an announcement to -users today
[09:28] <mako> sabdfl: reply-to sender
[09:28] <sabdfl> announcement?
[09:28] <mako> sabdfl: yeah. just a message to users
[09:29] <sabdfl> about the reply-to sender?
[09:29] <mako> yeah, read the reply-to section here: http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~mako/cc-summary-20050125.html
[09:29] <ogra> pitti ?
[09:31] <mako> man.. how did my spellchecker not catch "joingly"
[09:33] <sabdfl> mako: i like the idea of running a trial period with reply-to list
[09:33] <sabdfl> did that get serious consideration?
[09:33] <mako> sabdfl: that is what won
[09:33] <mako> sabdfl: the trial starts today :)
[09:34] <sabdfl> cool
[09:34] <mako> i guess i didn't make the conclusion very explicit
[09:34] <sabdfl> thanks for handling that
[09:34] <mako> i'm gonna fix that summary
[09:34] <mako> i also spelled jointly with a g
[09:35] <sabdfl> Kamion: just reading the cc meeting summary, are you concerned that the tone or quality of -users or any other forum is deteriorating?
[09:37] <mako> sabdfl: that thread got *nasty*
[09:38] <mako> we want to avoid saying, "compare the admins to slavemasters and get what you want"
[09:41] <crimsun> mako: have you received my signed CoC yet? (I sent it Tue, 25 Jan 2005 10:13:04 -0800)
[09:41] <mako> crimsun: usually i reply when i recieve/check them.. let me look
[09:42] <ogra> mako: you didnt reply mine....
[09:42] <YokoZar> Ok when my package runs debian/rules binary and it gets to any of the debhelper commands it bugs out with "I have no package to build" - is this me missing some obvious declaration somewhere?
[09:42] <mako> well, i replied to tseng on irc today instead of email..
[09:42] <mako> ogra: but maybe not as usually as i thought ;)
[09:43] <ogra> mako: heh, doesnt really matter.... i'm not a friend of buerocracy ;)
[09:44] <mako> does that make me a buerocrat?
[09:44] <ogra> lol
[09:44] <mako> an ubuntocrat
[09:44] <ogra> rather ... yes
[09:48] <mako> crimsun: looks good and you're 4 hops away from me :)
[09:48] <crimsun> mako: excellent, thanks muchly
[09:48] <dholbach> mako: i think we just have one hop in between :-)
[09:51] <mako> dholbach: mvo, yes
[09:53] <YokoZar> What generates debian/files ?
[09:54] <YokoZar> I know uupdate modifies it, but does something make it in the first place?
[09:56] <ogra> YokoZar: http://www.nl.debian.org/doc/manuals/developers-reference/ap-tools.en.html#s-dh-make
[09:57] <YokoZar> wait
[09:57] <YokoZar> http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-source.html#s-debianfiles
[09:57] <YokoZar> debian/files should not exist?
[09:59] <dholbach> YokoZar: "...it is used while building packages to record which files are being generated..."
[09:59] <dholbach> YokoZar: so if your package doesn't build, it's still lying there
[10:00] <YokoZar> The error I'm getting is that it isn't there when it comes time to make a .changes file (after I enter in my key the first time)
[10:00] <dholbach> YokoZar: ogra is quite right to point you towards dh_make - it serves as a perfect start for a nice, clean package
[10:02] <YokoZar> I used dh_make to make my package
[10:03] <darklight> fabbione, ding
[10:20] <Kamion> T-Bone: sorry, my clue is starting to run out when you get to modules auto-loading each other; you need a real kernel/hotplug expert
[10:21] <T-Bone> Kamion: ok. Cause i've been talking to James Bottomley and Matthew Wilcox, they both agree that making mptscsih hotplug-friendly is everything but a trivial task
[10:21] <maswan> mdz: thanks for being nice, even when I'm slightly frustrated after having butted my head against silly mistakes I made while recompiling a slightly patched kernel. :)
[10:21] <Kamion> sabdfl: -users hasn't got as bad as debian-user, but I certainly can't deal with reading every thread on it any more; I strongly believe that we need the flexibility to be able to ban people who are being abusive or end discussions that have got out of hand
[10:21] <Kamion> there aren't many discussions that got that far, but the reply-to flamewar did
[10:22] <Kamion> T-Bone: ok, if it's a matter of special-casing it in hw-detect then we can do that in principle, but it *sucks* *really* *badly*; the only way to make the installed system guaranteeably behave the same way is to stick it in /etc/modules, and then you have drive ordering problems etc.
[10:23] <Kamion> I'd almost advocate special-casing it in hotplug itself over that, but that probably sucks worse for other reasons :)
[10:23] <Kamion> T-Bone: if there isn't a bug open, could you file one and cc mdz? I'd like his input
[10:23] <T-Bone> Kamion: well, you _have_ to stick it in /etc/modules if you don't load it from initrd anyway
[10:25] <Kamion> only if /usr's on the MPT disk and / isn't, or something
[10:25] <Kamion> (assuming a hotplug-friendly mptscsih)
[10:25] <T-Bone> Kamion: no you don't get it
[10:25] <T-Bone> yeah but it seems mostly out of question right now
[10:26] <T-Bone> the idea is that on MPT boxes, there is no (usually) other disks than those hooked to the Fusion bus
[10:26] <Kamion> ok, well I want mdz's input before adding special cases really, but provisionally I don't mind hacking it in hw-detect
[10:28] <T-Bone> Kamion: you'd have to ask jbailey i suppose, but it seems that Debian preloads MPT on the initrd, afaict
[10:29] <Kamion> that's probably initrd-tools
[10:29] <Kamion> which has sod-all to do with what the installer detects
[10:30] <T-Bone> yup
[10:43] <Kamion> does anyone here have an i386 CPU that supports NX? look in the "flags" line of /proc/cpuinfo to find out
[10:45] <sivang> Kamion: not me, what does this flag mean?
[10:45] <rcaskey_> sivang: mark memory regions as non-executable
[10:45] <sivang> rcaskey_: ah ok, thanks, it is probably good to have, can I choose this when I buy my processor? ;-)
[10:48] <Kamion> new systems have it, as I understand it; AMD defined it
[10:48] <Kamion> don't know exact vintage though
[10:49] <Kamion> I think all/nearly all amd64 systems have it
[10:56] <lamont> Kamion: not here.
[11:00] <sivang> Well, I'm tired, night everybody!
[11:00] <HrdwrBoB> night
[11:00] <tseng> bye sivang 
[11:00] <sivang> tseng: bye , big congrets for today :)
[11:00] <tseng> thanks.
[11:01] <sivang> bye HrdwrBoB 
[11:05] <dholbach> i'm tired too
[11:05] <dholbach> have a good night everyone
[11:06] <mdz> mako,sabdfl: everything ironed out with regard to the process docs?
[11:06] <mdz> Kamion: what's the special-case in hw-detect?
[11:07] <mako> mdz: i'm working on it now
[11:07] <mako> mdz: it's getting good
[11:07] <mvo__> good night dholbach 
[11:07] <Kamion> mdz: T-Bone sent mail
[11:07] <dholbach> bye mvo__ :-)
[11:07] <mako> mdz: sabdfl went through it and suggested some reorganization.. but liked what we had
[11:07] <mdz> mako: sabdfl is happy?
[11:07] <mako> sabdfl: he rolled his eyes at the elmo clause
[11:08] <mako> sabdfl: may try to bring taht up next week
[11:08] <mako> mdz: ^^^
[11:08] <mako> sabdfl: i wish i could blame taht on tab completision.. that was brain completions problem
[11:09] <mako> sabdfl: sorry :) almost done with a reorganization that i think you will like
[11:12] <T-Bone> dilinger: it's better if you don't know. For your own sake ;^)
[11:13] <T-None> gnight all
[11:13] <mako> mdz: check that out: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewMembersMaintainersDraft
[11:13] <mako> sabdfl: ^^
[11:14] <mako> sabdfl: you were right. i think that reads a *lot* better.. 
[11:14] <ajmitch> morning
[11:35] <Kamion> mdz: I suspect part of the mptscsih problem might be, is it possible to register the same PCI ID in two modules and expect both of them to be loaded?
[11:41] <mjt> mdz: you around?
[11:43] <mdz> mjt: yes
[11:43] <mdz> Kamion: apparently it is; it happened undesirably with e100 and eepro100
[11:44] <mjt> mdz: just come across this for initrd/whatever coldplugging:
[11:44] <mjt> eval "findmodule() { case \$1 in $(sed -n 's|^alias \(.*\) \(.*\)|\1)module=\2;;|p' /lib/modules/$(uname -r)/modules.alias ) *) module= ;; esac; }"
[11:57] <_mvo_> ping jdub 
[11:57] <bluefoxicy> pitti: ping?
[11:57] <pitti> bluefoxicy: pong
[11:58] <bluefoxicy> pitti:  did you get my e-mail?
[11:58] <_mvo_> anyone else noticed problems with gamin? it seems to not inform me about changed files :/
[11:58] <pitti> bluefoxicy: ahem, mind to translate your nick into a realname?
[11:59] <bluefoxicy> pitti:  John Richard Moser :)
[11:59] <pitti> ah :-) sorry
[11:59] <bluefoxicy> wow, you only have update-linux-hardened-support hitting Xorg and soffice.bin?
[12:00] <pitti> bluefoxicy: well, mono too