=== azeem [~mbanck@socks-out.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pitti [~martin@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pitti [~martin@box79162.elkhouse.de] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === azeem [~mbanck@socks-out.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Simira [rpGirl@m146i.studby.ntnu.no] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === piooo [~piotr@62.233.184.26] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === piooo [~piotr@62.233.184.26] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === jbailey [~jbailey@CPE000ded9d787c-CM014260028338.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === amu [~amu@amu.developer.debian] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === azeem_ [~mbanck@socks-out.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === zul [~chuck@198.62.158.205] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === sivang [~sivang@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jonathan_ [~jonathan@dumbledore.hbd.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jonathan_ is now known as jonathan_c === jbailey [~jbailey@CPE000ded9d787c-CM014260028338.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mdz [~mdz@69-167-148-207.vnnyca.adelphia.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === sabdfl [~mark@dumbledore.hbd.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jonathan_c is now known as Jonathan_C === doko [doko@dsl-082-082-192-138.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Keybuk [~scott@syndicate.netsplit.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pitti [~martin@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [04:56] hey pitti [04:57] Hi zul, how's it going [04:57] good u? [04:57] fine, thanks === amu [~amu@amu.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [04:59] morning folks === mvo_ [~mvo@ip181.135.1511I-CUD12K-01.ish.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:00] am I the only one who is unable to login to the website, and therefore edit the wiki? [05:00] morning matt [05:00] mdz: I added an USN today, worked fine [05:00] mdz: elmo fixed that earlier today, he said [05:00] ah, so he did [05:00] it was broken for me this morning [05:00] thanks, elmo [05:00] hi all [05:01] hey sabdfl [05:01] hey sabdfl [05:01] first, is there anyone here who is going through the maintainer process, and needs tech board approval? [05:01] I believe at least jbailey is in that position [05:01] you have to be approved by the cc first correct? [05:02] there was at least one according to my sms from elmo === linuxboy [~anon@yoda.frogfoot.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:02] zul: not necessarily, accrording to the docs as they stand, but that seems to be the way it works out in practice [05:02] mdz: myself also, but I don't have CC approval yet [05:02] because CC needs to approve you as a member first [05:02] mdz: Yes. [05:03] hmmm...ill wait for the cc then ;) [05:03] if we have more time at the end, and a CC quorum, we'll see if we can take care of you guys as well [05:03] likely [05:03] let's tr to get it all done today [05:04] but for now...sabdfl, Keybuk on jbailey? [05:04] yes! [05:04] wouldn't trust him with a barge pole :o) === ogra [~ogra@pD95F88AA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:04] yes, of course :p [05:04] yes on my part as well [05:05] jbailey: congratulations! === jbailey does a snoopy dance! [05:05] I think "mail elmo" is the next step in the process [05:05] smurfs, snoopy's, we got it all [05:05] signed CoC [05:05] well that was easy for you, jbailey [05:05] signed CoC came with being a member [05:05] ajmitch: It's true. My wife's a dancer, she taught me. [05:05] congrats :) [05:06] jbailey: congrets [05:06] moving on with the agenda [05:06] who added this item about zinf? [05:06] I asked for more information in the wiki, but there was no followup [05:07] so I think it has been abandoned [05:07] jbailey: hey jbailey :) [05:07] the other seed change on the table is gs-esp [05:07] zinf would need to replace something (rhythmbox?) given its feature list [05:07] and I'm inclined to stick with rb as it's known good [05:08] hasn't the gs-esp seed change already happened? [05:08] hmm, so it did. no one seemed interested :-) [05:08] is germinate doing the right thing with it? [05:08] defined as? [05:08] using it instead of gs [05:08] to satisfy all the or-ed dependencies [05:08] that's what cdimage seems to be doing, at least [05:09] ok, let's follow up after the meeting to confirm [05:09] and then roll a new ubuntu-meta [05:09] esp? [05:09] that's the end of the agenda [05:09] any other business? [05:09] this is a record [05:09] hehe [05:09] sabdfl: psql 8? [05:09] that was awfully quick [05:09] was gonna say, this is the shortest TB meeting *ever& [05:09] wow 9 minutes! [05:09] sabdfl: while we are at it? [05:09] sabdfl: http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2005-January/003776.html [05:09] mdz: pitti has psql 8.0 packages... [05:10] and now pitti is going to say "language packs" and ruin it all [05:10] erm, what about other maintainer candidates ? [05:10] although, that would spoil the record [05:10] Keybuk: "language packs" [05:10] psql 8 sounds like a massive UVF exception [05:10] so? [05:10] esp => "Easy Software Products", the cupsys people I think [05:10] to be more clear [05:10] I'm _working_ on psql 8 packages [05:10] mdz: it would not replace 7.4.6 [05:10] actually I'm working on a completely new architecture for all major postgresql versions [05:10] oh, ok then [05:10] so I don't have releasable packages ready by now [05:10] the idea would be to have it available [05:11] as long as pitti is happy supporting two versions [05:11] it requires some manual jiggery to move data from 7.4.6 to 8.0 [05:11] sounds like postgresql [05:11] depending on how much progress pitti can make on the packages [05:11] if at all, this is something for universe only [05:11] oh, if it's for universe, then there's nothing to talk about [05:11] I'm working at them "after hours" (whatever that means) as fast as I can [05:11] i'm not sure about that! [05:11] but it will still take me a while [05:11] we know upstream is solid [05:12] so the only question is whether we are prepared to support pitti's packages [05:12] i vote that we take that decision closer to release [05:12] main / universe [05:12] agreed [05:12] that sounds like the situation with mono - 1.1.x is meant to be better than 1.0.x, but I don't know if someone is working on universe packages or not yet [05:12] right now I don't even have something for universe [05:12] on the same note, I think that the current SeedFreeze strategy doesn't fit the way that we actually work [05:12] and in practice, it's fine to make seed changes much later in the release process [05:12] mdz: what about other maintainer candidates ? crimsun and tseng already have proven to make good packages, they are both already members...and it would ease my MOTU work if the were allowed to upload [05:13] so for hoary+1 (I refuse to acknoweldege the True Name of the Beast), I think we ought to make adjustments to that part of the freeze process [05:13] mdz: SeedChill? [05:13] mdz: hehe [05:13] TNotB? [05:13] ogra: if we finish with all tech board business, and still have enough CC representatives, we'll do that [05:13] sabdfl: I try to get the packages ready as fast as I can; if I have something to show, we can discuss the hoary question again [05:13] great ! [05:14] lamont: seedslush [05:14] pitti: excellent, it would be wonderful [05:15] sabdfl: if some of your guys can help me with testing/fixing, that'd be great [05:16] pitti: publish the packages [05:16] ok [05:17] ok, so there's no decision to be taken on postgresql, right? [05:17] not a decision [05:17] more a general question about the feeling [05:17] whether we want/like it or not [05:17] and how much time I invest into this [05:17] right now, it's a free-time project [05:17] ok [05:17] 8.0 requires all dependent packages to be rebuilt? [05:18] Kamion: are you available for CC business? [05:18] doko: yes, all client programs/libraries/etc. [05:18] mdz: yes === elmo [~james@83-216-141-215.jamest298.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:19] thanks, elmo [05:19] hey elmo [05:19] cc buziness? [05:19] ogra: do you have a list of candidates? [05:20] the CC agenda has a few listed [05:20] curently i would suggest treenaks (who vant be here), crimsun and tseng [05:20] zul,ajmitch: ? [05:20] im here [05:20] yup [05:20] sorry zul/ajmitch....missed you [05:21] oh, and if possible dholbach [05:21] zul: are you Chuck Short? [05:21] that's ok [05:21] the CC agenda also has dholbach [05:21] Kamion: yep [05:21] who doesn't seem to be online at the moment [05:21] mdz: unfortunately not...probably mvo knows more ? [05:22] ajmitch: are you interested in an selinux-enabled-by-default ubuntu derivative project? [05:22] sabdfl: yes, that's what I'm working on [05:22] ok [05:22] he is one of a group of folks in the Ubuntu community who are interested in that project [05:22] don't see it in the mainline for a few releases, but am interested in a derivative where it can get some banging-on [05:22] cool [05:23] one at a time [05:23] ajmitch seems to be first on the list [05:24] are we confirming member or uploader (universe)? [05:24] sorry, what are these candidates for? [05:24] MOTU [05:24] as far as I know [05:24] ok [05:24] so can we agree that any two of TB / CC / MOTU is good enough for that? [05:24] MOTU or universe uploader? [05:24] presumably ajmitch would need access to more than universe eventually, but I think it would be best to stick to universe initially and see how he goes with patches [05:24] ogra: (this would mean that you and chris together could approve new MOTU uploaders) [05:25] sabdfl: isnt that identical ? [05:25] sabdfl: MOTU == universe uploader, no? [05:25] (due to selinux invariably needing to change stuff in base) [05:25] Kamion: yes, the packages that I'd need to touch for main would have to be reviewed [05:25] I see MOTU as the universe team leader [05:25] it's what I thought we had, i'm just confirming, since there has been *cough* some confusion [05:25] s [05:25] mdz: yeah, that would be great (if haggai agrees) [05:25] but the terms seem to have been conflated since then [05:25] mdz: what kamion said [05:25] due to, er, the "Master" bit [05:26] MOTU can approve new universe uploaders, as we discussed last time [05:26] ajmitch: you mention that you were working on the python2.4 transition in universe; who were you working with on that? [05:26] which i didn't document [05:26] mdz: I started rebuilding some packages with ogra [05:26] mdz: me... [05:26] what would "Slave Of The Universe" be though? Monk? [05:26] I always sort of saw MOTU as the collective, but it's not terribly important [05:26] me too [05:26] also, MOTU would make decisions on new packages for universe (subject to elmo vetting) [05:26] however I haven't got very far yet === haggai saw MOTU as the collective too.. it's more positive [05:27] haggai and ogra can be MOTMOTU [05:27] lol [05:27] heh [05:27] well, that could get hectic since we said two MOTU could approve a new universe uploader, and I wouldn't want the group to be able to extend itself arbitrarily [05:27] sounds like an anime character [05:27] agreed, that privilege should be limited to the team leadership [05:28] lets stick to the earlier terminology: [05:28] - MOTU - masters of the universe - team leaders in the universe component [05:28] - they make freeze / version / NEW decisions for universe [05:28] - two of them, for the moment, can approve a new uploader to universe [05:28] uploaders can be unrestricted, or limited to universe [05:28] have MOTU got a point of contact yet, or is it just ubuntu-devel@ ? [05:29] i tihnk the restriction is social [05:29] elmo: ubuntu-devel / ogra / haggai [05:29] MOTU, IIRC, are haggai and ogra [05:29] yup [05:29] aye [05:29] ok [05:29] i'd be happy with a few more MOTU === haggai is on the look out for more [05:29] they need to be people that the existing MOTU like to work with, to get a good team [05:29] the CC agenda doesn't distinguish between member and maintainer candidates [05:29] sabdfl: err, unrestricted uploaders are maintainers surely? [05:30] elmo: yes [05:30] the restriction isn't social, then, it's technical [05:30] so the term is 'universe uploader' then? [05:30] and I thought we finially hashed out procedures for maintainers in the last CC ? [05:30] mako has a doc on the wiki, i'll review, update and move to the main site and call for comments [05:30] haggai UNUP ? [05:30] elmo: we did, i just didn't write it up [05:30] ogra: no need to over-abbreviate :-) [05:31] heh... [05:31] (abbreviations require expansion, and therefore documentation ...) [05:31] elmo: yes, we did, but sabdfl wasn't available at the time [05:31] elmo: excellent [05:31] oh, did i miss another discussion on it last week? was referring to the *previous* one [05:31] gosh this is shocking [05:32] ill review the log of the last cc meeting, and mako's writing, and post a final draft [05:32] ANYHOW [05:32] for now, let's run through the list [05:32] any two people can say aye to a universe uploader (TB / CC / MOTU) [05:32] let's go [05:33] ajmitch? [05:33] yes? [05:33] still awake.. [05:33] hang on, don't they need to be members first? => CC majority needed [05:33] who seconds ajmitch for uploading to universe? [05:33] Kamion: didnt we agree to accelerate the process for a while? === elmo cries quietly in the corner === zul offers elmo a lollipop [05:34] mm, ok, I thought that was just bypassing TB approval not CC approval as well [05:34] zul: just say no to candy from strangers === ogra hands elmo a handerchief [05:34] but if everybody disagrees with me then I'll go away [05:34] elmo: heh [05:35] Kamion: i think your position is sensible but that's not the way it was written AIUI [05:35] alright [05:35] ok, let's take a decision now, cc only: [05:35] yes or no [05:36] should two of TB / MOTU / CC be able to approve a new uploader to universe, for a limited time until we have grown the universe team to a good size? [05:37] yes (wrt to "limited time") [05:37] so you don't need to be a Member first? Or you become a Member automatically? [05:37] mako? kamion? elmo? [05:37] azeem: that as my question [05:37] sabdfl: can we clarify what happens wrt membership first? [05:38] if it only takes two CC to become a member, I'm not sure there's a pressing need? [05:38] it would imply membership, allowing us to grow quickly for a few weeks / months, rather than dance around over several weeks [05:38] given the impromtu approval stuff we discussed at last CC [05:38] yes, so long as it's clear and actually documented that way [05:38] sabdfl: ...and discuss the process.... [05:38] so automatic membership also.. [05:38] impromptu approval stuff? i missed that [05:38] that was last week's CC meeting [05:38] summary? [05:39] the question was whether CC members should be able to approve outside of CC meetings [05:39] oh right, yes [05:39] ok [05:39] good idea [05:39] it was decided that they should, as long as it is properly recorded [05:39] ok, so that reduces the time lag [05:39] and, er, mako volunteered to do the record-keeping [05:40] -- you could get two MOTU and two CC and you;d be straight in? [05:40] as a universe uploader, yeah? [05:40] right, as a universe uploader [05:40] yup [05:41] personally, for universe uploaders, i'd be happy for any two of haggai, ogra, elmo, Kamion, mdz, sabdfl, mako (and anyone else I missed from that list) to approve membership and universe upload ONLY [05:41] i would expect them only to approve someone they personally know can do a quality job [05:41] i would see it as a short term step to grow quickly and efficiently [05:41] ogra, haggai and elmo are in the best position to know, in general [05:41] right, it ends post-hoary.. which is what is published [05:41] but i'm happy to be overruled here [05:42] that's fine by me; apologies for derailing the discussion [05:42] mako: only published in the wiki so far, right? [05:42] so Kamion is +1, mako, elmo? [05:42] mdz: in the wiki and in the meeting notes [05:42] sabdfl: i thought agreed to this before :) [05:42] I'm gonna abstain, I really don't mind. I think it's unnecessary, but I'm also not strongly opposed to it and I don't want to block it, if others want to do it [05:42] mako: let's get that onto the website as soon as it passes sabdfl-o-matic [05:43] mako: me too [05:43] ok, i vote for it as well [05:43] mdz: i emailed sabdfl right after the meeting and was waiting for that blessing [05:43] so, until Hoary, you can become a member AND get universe upload given the blessing of ANY TWO of TB / CC / MOTU [05:43] sabdfl has sworn a mighty oath to process that email [05:43] phew [05:44] once again [05:44] ajmitch? [05:44] ogra,haggai: would like to hear from you guys [05:44] I'm afraid I haven't seen anything of ajmitch yet [05:44] i don't know the se-linux-lovin' guy [05:45] ajmitch, it think i would ike to review the latest changes on your packages, and if they are ok, i'd like to approve you directly... [05:45] ogra said that he had worked with him [05:46] ogra: alright [05:46] ajmitch: sounds like you need to work with the MOTU, when they are happy they can approve directly [05:46] sounds good [05:46] haggai if you want to review additionally .... [05:46] just say... [05:46] ogra: will do [05:46] brandon hale? [05:46] ogra: just CC me on your mails [05:47] brandon hale == tseng? [05:47] haggai: okay... (we made the most stuff on irc) [05:47] mdz: yup [05:47] mdz: yeah [05:47] will I still need CC approval to be a member now? [05:47] mdz: ...rrrright aways from here [05:47] ajmitch: apparently not :) [05:47] ajmitch: nope === tseng [~tseng@thegrebs.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:47] ajmitch: not if haggai and ogra are happy with your work; if you're interested in membership before then we can vote on that separately [05:47] ok :) [05:47] ajmitch: you could conceivably get that first, by being active and making a good contribution anywhere [05:48] pinged tseng and dholbach on -devel [05:48] mdz: tseng is here... [05:48] tseng: both CC and TB are present, so we're doing member/maintainer processing [05:48] ah, ok. [05:48] ogra: he is now :-) === dholbach [~dholbach@td9091cee.pool.terralink.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:48] hai [05:48] ajmitch: but I think it'd be as easy for you to just work with haggai/ogra [05:48] hey dholbach [05:48] dholbach: thanks [05:48] dholbach: both CC and TB are present, so we're doing member/maintainer processing [05:48] alright... thought it was due to feb, 8th [05:49] it was. [05:49] mdz: yes, tseng [05:49] for clarity - cc could still approve a member (not uploader) if someone has made a good contribution but not yet cracked uploading [05:49] tseng: :) [05:49] it was, but we're taking advantage of an opportunity to accelerate the process [05:49] ok, any two seconders for universe uploader and membership for tseng? === seb128 [~seb128@ANancy-151-1-14-131.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:49] sabdfl: absolutely.... [05:49] ogra: I'll grab sleep soon & get some packages for you in the next day or two [05:49] since i like tomboy ;) [05:50] was tseng's stuff on IRC too? [05:50] tseng++ from me [05:50] ajmitch: great :) [05:50] that's two [05:50] ah nm [05:50] still working on gsf-sharp :) [05:50] haggai: tsen packages the mono apps since a long time [05:51] ok done [05:51] i can't speak for technical issues but i've seen tseng contributing sicne nearly day one === ogra could imagine tseng as the universe mono teamleader [05:51] tseng: congratulations! [05:51] tseng gets ++ from me, as a Memebr, for willingly showing the ways of cdbs for a pkging newbie :) [05:51] sabdfl: yay, thanks. [05:51] (as an Ubuntu Mmeber) [05:51] that's member, and uploader to universe [05:51] great [05:52] next, dholbach? any two? [05:52] yup [05:52] for the gtkmm love :) [05:52] anybody else? [05:52] anyone who becomes a member according to the fast-track process should still go back and sign the CoC, certainly. is someone keeping track of who needs to do that? [05:53] i think elmo is checking for a signed coc before enabling upload [05:53] ok [05:53] but we also need to track it for non-uploading members [05:53] i had a word with debian's *mm maintainer today and i'll work together with him [05:53] dholbach: could you send haggai some of your packaging work .... (coaster for example) [05:54] ogra: of course [05:54] dholbach: is there anyone you've worked directly with in the Ubuntu community who could serve as a reference? [05:54] dholbach: looks like you need to work with one of the TB / CC / MOTU guys to get a second vote of confidence [05:54] ok, dholbach please send me some work and I'll approve once I've had a look [05:54] I'm happy to look over coaster too if sent references [05:54] haggai: deb-src http://ubuntu.stufenseite.de/Repo ./ [05:55] sabdfl: that approval can happen out-of-meeting, right? [05:55] yes it can, lets move on [05:55] Kamion: it requires the fixed gtkmm packages (sid or the ones dholbach built) [05:55] mdz: i worked a bit on the wiki and advertised it on my universities unix group :-) [05:55] Kamion: yes [05:56] sounds like ogra and haggai can work with dholbach further [05:56] yup [05:56] ogra, kamion: i'm coordinating with the new version required with btb@debian.org [05:56] and continue the process that way [05:56] zul? any two seconds? [05:56] zul++ [05:56] is that two? [05:56] ;-) [05:56] :-) [05:56] that was 0->1 [05:57] no it's object orientated zul :) [05:57] bleah.. [05:57] any second? [05:57] zul has been doing QA work in Bugzilla [05:57] and kernel work [05:57] zul's email/name? [05:57] i havent seen packags yet.... [05:57] Chuck Short/zul@gentoo.org [05:58] I been helping out with some kernel stuff as well === fabbione confirms [05:58] zul: did you already do some packaging ? [05:58] zul: do you have experience with Debian packaging? [05:58] er, Ubuntu packaging ;-) [05:59] mdz: i created one or two for open-xchange and some personal packages [05:59] mdz.BrandingUpdate() [05:59] zul: looks like you need to get a few packages reviewed by one of the TB / CC / MOTU guys [05:59] sabdfl: sure no problems [05:59] can we approve zul as a member at least? === silbs [~sbsm0084@155.Red-80-36-82.pooles.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [06:00] and leave upload approval to MOTU? [06:00] ack zul as member === fabbione thumbs up [06:00] done === mako nods [06:00] zul: welcome! [06:00] ok [06:00] thanks [06:01] any other business? [06:01] cheers all, thanks for all the good work you put into ubuntu [06:01] in fact we should probably have done the same with the others who were passed to MOTU for processing [06:01]