[02:45] <zul> whoo...right in time
[02:45] <fabbione> you have plenty of time
[02:45] <zul> goody
[02:45] <fabbione> it's at 15:00 UTC
[02:45] <Simira> oh, that right... today. Have to get on soon then
[02:46] <zul> bleah...im not use to utc yet
[02:46] <dholbach> fabbione: 15 utc?
[02:46] <fabbione> kernel meeting at 15:00 UTC
[02:46] <dholbach> fabbione: ah alright
[02:46] <fabbione> as announced on ubuntu-devel
[02:46] <zul> well back to tomcat and iis then yay!
[02:47] <thom> zul: have fun, hope the docs have improved since the last time i did that
[02:47] <thom> ;P
[02:48] <zul> they havent
[02:48] <zul> but i know now who i can bother :)
[02:48] <thom> doh
[02:48] <thom> i should note the last time i looked was in tomcat3 era ;P
[02:49] <zul> damn
[02:49] <thom> best part of 5 years ago :-)
[03:52] <zul> so who is here for the kernel meeting besides fabbione
[03:53] <fabbione> lamont might be late
[03:54] <zul> k
[03:54] <zul> hey pitti
[03:54] <pitti> Hi zul
[04:00] <fabbione> hi everybody
[04:00] <zul> heylo
[04:00] <T-Bone> ola
[04:00] <fabbione> it's time to start and build up this team
[04:00] <fabbione> and very fast
[04:00] <fabbione> first of all we need a temporary team leader while i will be away
[04:01] <fabbione> but if there are no objections we will wait to discuss this issue when lamont is back
[04:01] <fabbione> in the meantime, is there any voluteer for that position?
[04:01] <zul> it should be a cannonical employee imho
[04:01] <fabbione> zul: why?
[04:01] <fabbione> i don't see the need of that since it is a temporary team leader
[04:01] <zul> fabbione: or with someone with access to main
[04:02] <fabbione> zul: according to the wiki there is a "packager" position
[04:02] <fabbione> there is no need for team leader to be also the packager
[04:02] <fabbione> hi dilinger
[04:02] <dilinger> hello :)
[04:02] <fabbione> dilinger: in short. i am asking around if there is any volunteer as temporary team leader while i will be away
[04:03] <zul> if no one else does it ill do it
[04:03] <fabbione> but we will wait for lamont to take the final decision
[04:03] <T-Bone> fabbione you'll be off for 1 month, right? If the leader isn't the packager, what's his role (factually, so to speak)?
[04:03] <zul> but ask lamont first
[04:03] <fabbione> zul: noted
[04:03] <fabbione> T-Bone: i will be off 2 weeks
[04:03] <T-Bone> ok
[04:03] <T-Bone> I can help then ;)
[04:03] <fabbione> T-Bone: ok noted
[04:04] <T-Bone> but let's see what ladude has to say ;^)
[04:04] <fabbione> ok
[04:04] <fabbione> the next item in agenda is Procedures/Policies
[04:04] <fabbione> we need to have some well defined procedures and policies
[04:04] <fabbione> for people that wants to work in the team
[04:05] <fabbione> that also describe how to maintain the package
[04:05] <fabbione> procedures on how to request new drivers
[04:05] <fabbione> policies for inclusions of new drivers
[04:05] <fabbione> and so on.
[04:05] <fabbione> this is important at this point in time
[04:05] <zul> ok well everyone should state their interest
[04:06] <fabbione> because kernel is "special" compared to other packages
[04:06] <fabbione> and it easily violates Upstream VErsion Freeze
[04:06] <fabbione> and Feature Freeze
[04:06] <T-Bone> heh
[04:06] <fabbione> is there any volunteer that would like to start drafting these documents
[04:06] <zul> not me
[04:06] <fabbione> and get in touch with ubuntu-doc team?
[04:06] <T-Bone> fabbione shouldn't the driver requests be managed through BTS?
[04:07] <fabbione> T-Bone: yes, but that is not 100% clear
[04:07] <T-Bone> k
[04:07] <fabbione> i still receive mail like: "Oh ubuntu kernel's God, please add...."
[04:07] <T-Bone> heh
[04:07] <T-Bone> fabbione i don't know what the new Ubuntu BTS look like, is it any closer to the Debian one?
[04:08] <T-Bone> because I think that such  a featureful BTS would help a lot in that area...
[04:08] <fabbione> T-Bone: that's offtopic. For now we have bugzilla and we will live with it
[04:08] <fabbione> when we will switch to the new one we can ask for extensions
[04:08] <T-Bone> fabbione that may not be offtopic in the long run...
[04:09] <Kamion> it's off-topic for the next two weeks :)
[04:09] <T-Bone> heh :)
[04:09] <fabbione> so i guess there are no volunteers to start drafting documentation
[04:09] <dilinger> fabbione: well, what *is* policy for new drivers?  for debian, we're very strict about it since it is such a pain to maintain third party patches when forward porting to new kernels
[04:09] <fabbione> dilinger: we have the same issue here, but we are a bit more flexible
[04:10] <fabbione> we try to include what is supposed to have an active upstream
[04:10] <fabbione> but we also kick out stuff that becomes dead
[04:10] <fabbione> (see mISDN in warty -> killed in hoary)
[04:10] <fabbione> until now i judged based on my own experience
[04:10] <fabbione> but clearly that's not good enough in a team work
[04:10] <T-Bone> fabbione, Kamion : my point is that I don't see the interest of drafting some doc that will be obsoleted soon (assuming the new BTS comes up soon)...
[04:11] <Kamion> it's not going to be usable for us for hoary at least
[04:11] <Kamion> at least I don't think so
[04:11] <fabbione> T-Bone: you still need procedures for qa and other stuff. there is not only the drivers or other details
[04:11] <T-Bone> makes sense then
[04:11] <T-Bone> fabbione roger that
[04:11] <Kamion> and really documentation should only require patching for a change of bug tracking system, not a total rewrite
[04:11] <fabbione> T-Bone: eg: when i need to release a kernel with major changes, i always ensure that it builds on all 6 arches
[04:12] <fabbione> T-Bone: so you need some kind of document that says that you must do it
[04:12] <T-Bone> fabbione : heh, that's not enough. d-i is b0rken in ia64 with the new kernel ;)
[04:12] <T-Bone> fabbione : ok
[04:12] <fabbione> T-Bone: also.. you want to document how to provide info to Kamion when some changes will arrive
[04:13] <fabbione> see bumping the ABI
[04:13] <fabbione> or adding/removing drivers
[04:13] <fabbione> T-Bone: are you up for it?
[04:13] <T-Bone> right
[04:13] <T-Bone> fabbione : writing doc? No.
[04:14] <fabbione> any volunteer that would like to involve the doc team in writing them?
[04:14] <fabbione> (since we have a doc team let see what they can do)
[04:14] <zul> exactly we would juat have to proof read it
[04:15] <fabbione> zul: exactly...
[04:15] <T-Bone> fabbione : why not asking the doc team if they wanna do it, and then give them what they need...
 any volunteer that would like to involve the doc team in writing them?
[04:15] <fabbione> T-Bone: that's what i meant
[04:15] <T-Bone> ah ok
[04:15] <fabbione> so anybody up to mail -doc?
[04:15] <Kamion> s/Kamion/the installer team/g please (hoping that some day it'll be more than just me ...)
[04:15] <T-Bone> hehe
[04:16] <fabbione> Kamion: sorry Allmighty of D-I vahalla
[04:16] <lamont> sorry I'm laste
[04:16] <Kamion> fabbione: :P
[04:16] <zul> hey lamont 
[04:16] <lamont> late, even
[04:16] <fabbione> lamont: wb
[04:16] <fabbione> ok i will mail enrico to involve the -doc team
[04:17] <fabbione> we can go back to the first item since lamont is here
[04:17] <fabbione> Temporary Team Leader
[04:17] <fabbione> zul and T-Bone offer their availability
[04:17] <fabbione> given that somebody can sponsor their uploads
[04:17] <T-Bone> fabbione i'm a maintainer. Don'tneed sponsor iirc
[04:18] <T-Bone> (read: full maintainer)
[04:18] <T-Bone> or whatever it's called ;)
[04:18] <fabbione> T-Bone, zul: would you like to lead togehter?
[04:18] <zul> sure
[04:18] <fabbione> since between both of you, you can cover a wider range of TZ's
[04:18] <T-Bone> hehe ok.
[04:18] <T-Bone> what about lamont?
[04:19] <fabbione> zul, T-Bone: after the meeting please stay around that we need to discuss some details
[04:19] <fabbione> does anybody have any objections?
[04:19] <fabbione> it's time to speak up, otherwise be silent forever :)
[04:19] <T-Bone> fabbione : i think lamont is reading scrollback
[04:19] <fabbione> let's wait a few secs than
[04:20] <lamont> if elected I will serve
[04:20] <T-Bone> lol
[04:20] <zul> heh...fine with me
[04:20] <T-Bone> are we gonna have a 3 heads hydra for 2 weeks? ;)
[04:20] <lamont> fabbione: I'd be happy to be temp team leader, don't really want the headaches, but ...
[04:21] <fabbione> i have no objections with any of you.
[04:21] <Mithrandir> fabbione: well, since it's temporary, one doesn't have to be quiet forever. :P
[04:21] <fabbione> so i think the best would be for you 2 to cooperate from the beginning
[04:21] <fabbione> s/2/3
[04:21] <lamont> with majority rules, or will there be a point-man?
[04:21] <fabbione> lamont: majority rule works for me
[04:21] <zul> same here for me as well
[04:22] <lamont> 'k
[04:22] <T-Bone> lamont has mentored me for my debian kernels, I'm fine with him ;)
[04:22] <fabbione> since i am still the Team Emperor, i still decide... until the meeting is finished :)
[04:22] <T-Bone> hehe
[04:22] <lamont> fabbione: lol
[04:22] <fabbione> after the meeting you are all fucked :P
[04:22] <zul> hehe...
[04:22] <T-Bone> lol
[04:22] <fabbione> ok let's keep going
[04:23] <fabbione> Subsystem leaders
[04:23] <zul> ooh...i elect myself as patch monkey
[04:23] <fabbione> right now we only have mjg59 for acpi
[04:24] <fabbione> is there anybody that feels confident with a specific subsystem?
[04:24] <fabbione> like USB, alsa?
[04:24] <T-Bone> fabbione what are the eligible "subsystems"?
[04:24] <fabbione> T-Bone: everything basically
[04:24] <T-Bone> and what's the role of the subsystem leader?
[04:24] <fabbione> if you use XFS on 99,9% of your machines you are a perfect candidate to test XFS changes
[04:25] <T-Bone> lol
[04:25] <fabbione> T-Bone: bugfixes/testing/patching
[04:25] <fabbione> but if it is something you particulary like
[04:25] <fabbione> it gets easier and nicer for you
[04:25] <T-Bone> sure
[04:25] <fabbione> Mithrandir: iirc you have tons of hardware, right? ;)
[04:26] <Mithrandir> fabbione: fair bunch, yes.  I lack time, tho.
[04:26] <fabbione> ok
[04:26] <Mithrandir> I'm going to help out with anything amd64 specific I can.
[04:26] <zul> well does anyone have ppc or have access to ppc?
[04:26] <lamont> fabbione: it's all about the same to me...  I/O and process management are where most of my history is
[04:26] <fabbione> so is there any person that would like to work on a specific subsystem?
[04:27] <Mithrandir> zul: I have a PPC, but it's usually powered off.
[04:27] <fabbione> Mithrandir: ok
[04:27] <jbailey> zul: I use ppc as my main box, but it's pegasos not mac.
[04:27] <fabbione> that is great guys
[04:27] <fabbione> please add your names to the wiki pages
[04:27] <fabbione> page even
[04:27] <fabbione> to the porter section
[04:27] <Mithrandir> fabbione: what are the main problematic areas in the kernel?
[04:27] <T-Bone> fabbione : what about PPC porter btw?
[04:27] <fabbione> Mithrandir: i was going right there with the TODO list
[04:27] <lamont> Mithrandir: I'm betting on vm :-)
[04:28] <fabbione> ACPI, USB, alsa 
[04:28] <zul> Mithrandir, usb
[04:28] <zul> amongst others
[04:28] <fabbione> for ACPI mjg59 is pretty active
[04:28] <fabbione> but we lack alsa and usb
[04:28] <zul> ill work on usb
[04:28] <fabbione> also ide-* needs some love
[04:28] <fabbione> for what i can tell DMA is half broken
[04:29] <dilinger> i can do ide stuff
[04:29] <fabbione> dilinger: that would be great
[04:29] <fabbione> ok for the subsystems guys.. please add your names to the wiki
[04:30] <fabbione> is there anything else on this topic?
[04:30] <dilinger> general block device stuff too, but i don't have any scsi hardware, so i can't test that
[04:30] <fabbione> (we only have 30 minutes left)
[04:30] <fabbione> dilinger: that is perfect
[04:30] <T-Bone> fabbione : don't we need a PPC porter?
[04:30] <fabbione> now.. let's go to the TODO list
[04:30] <fabbione> T-Bone: yes, but we don't have an official one
[04:30] <T-Bone> (maybe that's on the TODO list...)
[04:31] <fabbione> The todo list needs to be built on the wiki
[04:31] <fabbione> right now is only one long list in my head
[04:31] <zul> fabbione: well i have a personal todo list that you know of
[04:31] <fabbione> zul: and that i can't remember 
[04:31] <lamont> fabbione: sounds like you';re the ideal person to write the TODO page
[04:31] <fabbione> not all of it
[04:31] <zul> heh
[04:31] <fabbione> lamont: yes. that is right
[04:31] <fabbione> but there are 2/3 items we need to discuss now
[04:32] <fabbione> first of all
[04:32] <fabbione> 2.6.10 and 2.6.11
[04:32] <T-Bone> hoho
[04:32] <fabbione> we are going to maintain 2 kernels in parallel
[04:32] <zul> eek
[04:32] <fabbione> not both of them in stable state
[04:32] <T-Bone> yuck
[04:32] <fabbione> 2.6.11 is actually boiotstrapped on top 2.6.10+today's bk
[04:32] <Kamion> T-Bone: fortunately powerpc tends to work reasonably well without particular attention, since it's a mainline architecture upstream
[04:32] <fabbione> that i will upload tomorrow
[04:33] <T-Bone> Kamion : right. Except that a ppc porter could give some love to ppc-specific flavours (G5, pegasos...)
[04:33] <fabbione> since we need to be able to sync bits between unstable/stable release
[04:33] <fabbione> we also need a shared archive
[04:33] <Kamion> T-Bone: that's not so much general powerpc as people with those specific bits of hardware, but yeah
[04:33] <dilinger> fabbione: er, so 2.6.11 will be 2.6.11rc3+bk stuff?
[04:33] <fabbione> dilinger: it will until 2.6.11 will be official out
[04:34] <dilinger> oh, ok
[04:34] <lamont> fabbione: any chance of getting it into launchpad?
[04:34] <fabbione> dilinger: basically the orig.tar.gz is a 2.6.10 + a big fat patch
[04:34] <fabbione> lamont: no.
[04:34] <fabbione> because the kernel is in bk
[04:34] <T-Bone> Kamion : my main concern is toward default kernel conf. It's rather bad last time I checked...
[04:34] <fabbione> also.. for the stable release i would like to start using the -as tree
[04:35] <fabbione> instead of plain vanilla
[04:35] <T-Bone> taht's definitely a good idea imho
[04:35] <fabbione> that will reduce the workload for the team
[04:35] <fabbione> (well almost all the team)
[04:35] <dilinger> heh
[04:35] <fabbione> dilinger: is your archive shared now?
[04:35] <makx> not yours
[04:35] <Mithrandir> -as is dilinger's?
[04:35] <dilinger> fabbione: not yet, i can do that, though
[04:35] <fabbione> Mithrandir: yes ;)
[04:36] <Mithrandir> dilinger++ :)
[04:36] <fabbione> dilinger: would it be possible to start branching out of your archive?
[04:36] <fabbione> if so please coordinate everything with the new team leaders ;)
[04:37] <fabbione> at least it will be a good solution to start with
[04:37] <dilinger> fabbione: well, it's just an arch repo w/ patches; i'm unable to keep a full kernel tree in arch.  so, a branch would just contain patch files on top of whatever i have.  it's certainly doable; i'm just not sure it makes sense
[04:37] <fabbione> dilinger: ok
[04:37] <fabbione> we can figure the best way to use the archive
[04:38] <fabbione> next in the TODO list is BTS cleanup
[04:38] <fabbione> we have plenty of bug reports in NEEDINFO state
[04:38] <fabbione> and no info
[04:38] <fabbione> i suggest that the bug trackers will send a general message to all the bugs.
[04:38] <zul> i think we can drop most of the 2.6.8 ones cant we?
[04:38] <fabbione> and ask people to test and report
[04:39] <fabbione> no info in 2 weeks -> CLOSE or kill the bug
[04:39] <lamont> fabbione: good plan
[04:39] <fabbione> it's getting impossible to track all of them otherwsie
[04:39] <fabbione> people can still reopen the bugs if they figure out that is not fixed
[04:40] <fabbione> last item in the TODO is to write the full TODO and that will be my task
[04:40] <zul> exactly
[04:40] <lamont> if no one gets to it this week, I can go on an email spree next week
[04:40] <zul> fabbione: ill send you my list
[04:40] <fabbione> lamont: you mean for the BTS?
[04:41] <lamont> yes
[04:41] <fabbione> zul: no. i will add a wiki page and you will add your stuff there
[04:41] <fabbione> lamont: sounds a good plan
[04:41] <zul> fabbione: yeah that works
[04:41] <lamont> fabbione: feel free to so note on the todolist page.. :)
[04:41] <fabbione> we need to centralize the doc and other stuff on the wiki
[04:41] <fabbione> lamont: ok ;)
[04:41] <fabbione> eheh
[04:42] <fabbione> last item in the agenda:
[04:42] <fabbione> AOB
[04:42] <fabbione> i have one
[04:42] <lamont> AOB?
[04:42] <fabbione> dilinger, zul: the config tool?
[04:42] <fabbione> Any other business?
[04:42] <zul> fabbione: dilinger is working on it
[04:42] <T-Bone> doh
[04:42] <zul> i havent had a chance to work on it yet
[04:42] <fabbione> (it's a brand of tampons)
[04:43] <fabbione> i mean.. it's NOT
[04:43] <fabbione> dilinger: status?
[04:43] <dilinger> i started it yesterday, but got caught up doing other stuff
[04:43] <Mithrandir> dilinger: as long as you know how to make kernels, that's fine
[04:43] <fabbione> but you know how to use them ;)
[04:43] <fabbione> ok
[04:43] <zul> ok thats a bit off topic :)
[04:44] <fabbione> zul: sorry...
[04:44] <fabbione> does anybody have any other comment or topic or question?
[04:44] <zul> heh
[04:44] <makx> fabbione: any automatic builds in the pipe?
[04:44] <dilinger> i'll resume work on it today, after i finish up beating some hardware into submission
[04:44] <zul> so the temp leaders is me and t-bone correct?
[04:44] <lamont> zul: and me
[04:44] <fabbione> makx: not yet.. but i have been thinging about it several time.
[04:44] <Mithrandir> makx: automatic builds?
[04:44] <zul> and lamont
[04:45] <Mithrandir> that should be easy enough to do
[04:45] <T-Bone> mailing list? ;)
[04:45] <lamont> T-Bone: ubuntu-devel until we get kicked out
[04:45] <fabbione> makx: would you like to write some code to do it?
[04:45] <makx> makx: would be cool to // that with debian kernel testing
[04:45] <lamont> mako: you're either way early, or way late. :-)
[04:45] <makx> fabbione: we need machines that have remote power switches
[04:45] <Mithrandir> makx: you want to have full remote testing and stuff as well?
[04:46] <fabbione> makx: you said building, or booting?
[04:46] <makx> said building, meant both.
[04:46] <fabbione> no we have nothing like that atm.
[04:46] <lamont> fair chunk of booting can be done with xen for at least one arch...
[04:46] <mako> lamont: early i hope :)
[04:46] <lamont> heh
[04:47] <fabbione> i think we will land on hoary+1 before we can have such infrastructure working
[04:47] <fabbione> at least in a central location
[04:47] <lamont> fabbione: certainly not hoary
[04:47] <fabbione> we can work at least on daily build
[04:47] <lamont> well, almost certainly
[04:47] <lamont> building should be doable for hoary, certainly
[04:47] <makx> yes that's a good starter
[04:47] <Mithrandir> daily builds should be easy enough to set up
[04:48] <fabbione> makx: would you like to work on that? i am sure lamont can help you setting up the stuff in the dc
[04:48] <lamont> given the necessary stuff, we could put the daily builds in the dc without much pain
[04:48] <fabbione> yes but we need daily builds out of an archive
[04:48] <zul> fabbione: we should look at how osdl handles that
[04:48] <fabbione> like an arch repo or something
[04:48] <T-Bone> Mithrandir : daily builds check that a kernel builds, which rather meaningless...
[04:48] <fabbione> T-Bone: not really
[04:48] <lamont> T-Bone: not always...
[04:48] <fabbione> it gives you an idea that the kernel at least can build
[04:49] <lamont> and said kernels would be available for people to download and test
[04:49] <fabbione> and that's how i released kernels for 4 arches in the last period
[04:49] <Mithrandir> what lamont says.
[04:49] <fabbione> ok
[04:49] <fabbione> so everybody has already his fair amount of work and tasks
[04:49] <fabbione> anything else?
[04:50] <fabbione> 3
[04:50] <fabbione> 2
[04:50] <fabbione> 1
[04:50] <fabbione> ok
[04:50] <T-Bone> lamont, fabbione: i can build tons of building kernel that will utterly fail on some archs we know about
[04:50] <fabbione> meeting is finished
[04:50] <T-Bone> anyway...
[04:50] <lamont> T-Bone: that's why we test them
[04:50] <lamont> (just just the ones you build, mind you... :-)
[04:50] <fabbione> T-Bone, zul, lamont: i would like to talk with you 3 sometimes today
[04:51] <fabbione> perhaps after the CC meeting
[04:51] <lamont> after CC would be good for me - 
[04:51] <T-Bone> lamont : remind me to kick you next time we meet ;)
[04:51] <Mithrandir> T-Bone: saying that "they can fail while still building" doesn't imply that building them to test they build is useless
[04:51] <lamont> heh
[04:51] <zul> fabbione: yep ill be here i have an ultra-sound later this afternoon though
[04:51] <fabbione> ok perfect
[04:51] <T-Bone> fabbione not before late today i think
[04:51] <fabbione> thanks everybody
[04:51] <lamont> Mithrandir: building them to test that they build and make the bits available for testing to people who have the hardware, but not the ability/space/whatever to build their own
[04:51] <fabbione> T-Bone: than i will start to talk to lamont and zul
[04:51] <Mithrandir> lamont: ack
[04:51] <fabbione> and you will sync with them
[04:52] <T-Bone> ok
[04:52] <zul> that was a quick meeting :)
[04:52] <fabbione> let's take 8 minutes break before the CC meeting
[04:52] <fabbione> zul: i hate long meetings ;)
[04:52] <zul> fabbione: dont we all
[04:52] <fabbione> and i said i wanted to be quick
[04:52] <fabbione> zul: not managers ;)
[04:52] <lamont> fabbione: at least T-Bone is reasonably TZ-proximate to you
[04:53] <T-Bone> fabbione : when do you plan to talk to us?
[04:53] <fabbione> they need to explain who they spend their time
[04:53] <zul> fabbione: im no freaking manager...oh wait
[04:53] <fabbione> T-Bone: after the CC meeting
[04:53] <T-Bone> i'll have a much better connection in 1h30
[04:53] <lamont> fabbione: I'm going to disappear for a short while, when lamont_r shows up, I'm back...
[04:53] <fabbione> T-Bone: i don't think it will last less than that
[04:53] <fabbione> ok
[04:54] <lamont> given most past cc's I think I'll be back before the end of the meeting
[04:54] <fabbione> ehhe
[04:54] <T-Bone> fabbione : ok then. TCP over HTTP plain sucks, especially when the proxy is overloaded...
[04:54] <T-Bone> lamont : huh? ;)
[04:54] <lamont> fabbione: anything else before I flee?
[04:55] <lamont> T-Bone: if they wanted you to have TCP, they'd have enabled it... :))
[04:55] <T-Bone> lamont : not like i had a choice, mind you ;)
[04:55] <T-Bone> lamont : heh. I have a regular work you know. Not supposed to be hanging around right now ;)
[04:56] <fabbione> lamont: nope
[04:56] <lamont> ok.  back with better bandwidth in a little bit the
[04:56] <lamont> n
[04:59] <mako> Kamion: around?
[04:59] <Kamion> yes
[05:02] <mako> still waiting for sabdfl
[05:02] <mako> i've got a quick thing to add the agenda
[05:03] <sivang> hey mako 
[05:03] <mako> agenda is http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[05:04] <mako> go ahead and add or propose new additions now if you want to cover something not on that list
[05:04] <mako> CC members should take a look over the people/wiki pages on that list if you have not already
[05:04] <mako> speed up the meeting once we get going
[05:05] <Kamion> I thought we dealt with the majority of those people earlier?
[05:05] <Kamion> oh, that was MOTU or something
[05:05] <sivang> mako: doing that at the moment
[05:05] <sabdfl> hi all
[05:05] <sivang> hey sabdfl 
[05:05] <Mirv> sorry, in a middle of a crisis, I'm a bit late (I think)
[05:05] <sabdfl> apologies, crossed wires
[05:06] <zul> Kamion: dealt with me and tseng last week
[05:06] <sabdfl> did i miss the beginning, or should we begin?
[05:06] <Kamion> neither of you are on UbuntuMembers; who's responsible for updating that page?
[05:07] <mako> i just told people to look over the list
[05:07] <mako> of wikipages/new members
[05:07] <mako> and then asked for any extra items
[05:07] <mako> i'm addinging one myself now
[05:07] <sabdfl> isn't dholbach already a member?
[05:08] <Kamion> sabdfl: dholbach was fast-track-approved as MOTU
[05:08] <Kamion> (IIRC)
[05:08] <sabdfl> that covers membership too
[05:08] <mako> alright, i just added "reply-to revisisted"
[05:08] <sivang> Kamion: yeah, I think it was last meeting?
[05:09] <mako> smurfix_away: you around, i suspect from your name maybe not
[05:09] <Kamion> sabdfl: in that case everyone on that list except for Scott Ritchie is already done, if memory serves correctly
[05:09] <sivang> mako: pinged him couple of hours ago, didn't reply
[05:09] <sabdfl> yes, some of those folks didn't make it for main uploading is all iirc
[05:09] <Kamion> and somebody *really* needs to update UbuntuMembers before we lose track completely :)
[05:10] <sabdfl> we have a spec for an automagix system
[05:10] <mako> Kamion: i have a list of everyone i've recieved signed cc's for
[05:10] <sabdfl> it will be done by hoary
[05:10] <sabdfl> it will track signed cc's
[05:10] <sivang> sabdfl: that's the "people" part of launchpad right?
[05:10] <Kamion> oh, dholbach was approved just today I think, haggai said he was happy
[05:10] <sabdfl> and membership
[05:11] <mako> can i suggest we start at the top of the agenda and go through
[05:11] <sabdfl> do we have the LoCo team leads around?
[05:11] <mako> even if it's to say that we're skipping something
[05:11] <mako> just for the logs, reporting, etc
[05:12] <sabdfl> ok mako
[05:12] <mako> that really was a question.. :)
[05:12] <sabdfl> lead off on reply-to
[05:12] <mako> ok.. 
[05:12] <mako> alright.. 
[05:12] <mako> so two weeks ago, we decided to switch reply-to for ubuntu-users 
[05:12] <mako> for a trial period
[05:13] <mako> i wrote the message as we'd discussed and made the change
[05:13] <Kamion> it was only actually switched about a week ago, iirc?
[05:13] <mako> yeah.. i think last monday
[05:13] <mako> FWIW, i've recieved no negative feedback to -owner
[05:13] <sabdfl> ok, that's good news
[05:14] <mako> it's been less than two weeks..
[05:14] <sabdfl> one week is too short to make it final though
[05:14] <mako> so if we want to revisit this again, we can
[05:14] <mako> but i suspect we won't hear more
[05:14] <sabdfl> how about we keep it till the end of the month, then decide?
[05:14] <Kamion> has anyone been individually CoC-warned or -banned, or are we saving that for the next flamewar?
[05:14] <mako> there seems to a be a number of people who don't really care a non-trivally small group of people who are happy
[05:14] <Mirv> sabdfl: I'm the one asking for Finnish team lead
[05:14] <sabdfl> next flamewar :-)
[05:14] <sabdfl> hi Mirv
[05:14] <mako> Kamion: i think we're saving that
[05:15] <mako> i mentioned in that message that we were upset about the way that things in terms of tone
[05:15] <sabdfl> do we send the CoC when people sign up to the list?
[05:15] <mako> and taht we would be enforcing the CoC in the future
[05:15] <sivang> sounds good
[05:15] <mako> sabdfl: that was mentioned in the last meeting but i don't think we've gone ahead and done it yet.. i'll mention it to jdub
[05:15] <sabdfl> ok
[05:16] <mako> i'm not sure if anyone has any comments
[05:16] <sabdfl> anybody unhappy with leaving it as-is till the end of Feb?
[05:16] <sabdfl> another two weeks?
[05:16] <Kamion> seems sensible
[05:16] <mako> i'm happy with that
[05:16] <sabdfl> ok, done
[05:16] <sabdfl> thanks mako
[05:17] <sabdfl> appreciate your steering the community wagon trail
[05:17] <mako> np ;) 
[05:17] <sabdfl> do we have good feelers into the forums and lists if things get testy?
[05:17] <sabdfl> does stuff bubble onto -devel or sounder?
[05:17] <mako> i am working with a few people who are active in the forums for traffic stuff.. they may good candidates to sort of police them as well
[05:18] <mako> sounder, not yet
[05:18] <mako> devel, not often and it's stopped quicker
[05:18] <mako> even user is overwhelming only topic and civil
[05:18] <sabdfl> maybe the welcome message should also let people know to raise CoC issues with any CC member
[05:19] <mako> right, i get them too all but often not until after the fact for traffic later on some lists
[05:19] <sabdfl> don't want a police state, but also want people to know that they can raise an issue and we will take it seriously
[05:19] <sivang> we should probably refer people to CoC upon subscription maybe?
[05:19] <sivang> tell them to reach CC people when things get out of hand etc
[05:19] <sabdfl> mako, is there a canonical (!) CoC.txt? we need one for the ubuntite mgmt system
[05:20] <sivang> lol
[05:20] <mako> sabdfl: i have one that can be the canonical one
[05:20] <sabdfl> mako: could you commit it to rocketfuel, under lib/canonical/launchpad/templates/coc/ please?
[05:20] <Kamion> sivang: yes, that was what we were discussing
[05:20] <sabdfl> current.txt
[05:20] <mako> sabdfl: ok
[05:21] <sabdfl> also publish on the website till the launchpad stuff is done
[05:21] <sabdfl> cool
[05:21] <sivang> Kamion: ah ok, "mind the backlog" (tm) :)
[05:21] <sabdfl> i must say the community spirit is fantastic
[05:21] <sabdfl> we will need to defend that, growth makes it harder
[05:21] <sabdfl> it won't stay great unless we defend  the coc
[05:21] <sivang> I agree
[05:22] <mako> many of the recent reviews have had references to the community in the titles or otherwise very central
[05:22] <mako> can we move to loco teams?
[05:22] <mako> smurfix_away isn't here and he appoints those leaders...
[05:23] <sabdfl> ok
[05:23] <mako> so i'd say we put this aside unless he shows up.. he can report via email, etc
[05:23] <mako> unless anmyone has any reservations about either of those candidates they want to voice
[05:23] <Kamion> smurfix shouldn't have to do that at CC meetings, should he? it can be out of band
[05:23] <sabdfl> Mirv?
[05:23] <mako> which seems unlikely
[05:24] <sabdfl> Mirv is here
[05:24] <sivang> Kamion: IIRC this was also agreed upon last meeting, that he can approve new people without having to dedicate CC meetings for it.
[05:24] <fabbione> i never closed it
[05:24] <fabbione> ops
[05:24] <sabdfl> i'd still like new LoCo guys to swing through the CC, so we can chat a bit and find out if there are ways we can support them
[05:25] <sivang> hmm , right.
[05:25] <mako> sabdfl: yes, where timezones don't make that impossible.. either way they should swing bby
[05:25] <mako> and to let them know that we're interested in supporting them and that we value their hard work
[05:25] <mako> (a lot)
[05:26] <sabdfl> for example, i'm keen to know if there are linux magazines in finland, and how we could get ubuntu reviewed in them
[05:26] <sabdfl> whether they would be interested in interviewing some of the ubuntu rock stars (keybuk takes a bow :-)
[05:26] <sivang> hehe
[05:26] <sabdfl> how many languages there are in finland, which will need rosetta teams
[05:27] <sivang> sabdfl: rosetta teams == loco teams? 
[05:27] <mako> sivang: not always
[05:27] <sabdfl> not necessarily, but the LoCo leader is likely to help setup the translation teams
[05:27] <mako> sivang: a nl loco team make sense. but there are multiple languages in nl
[05:27] <sabdfl> Mirv, if you are around, say hi so we can chat briefly
[05:27] <mako> sivang: or, for example, there are *80* languages in ethiopia
[05:28] <sivang> mako: man :)
[05:28] <amu> mako: wow
[05:28] <Mirv> sabdfl: yes, hi. I came from a trip 30 minutes ago, our hamster is killing itself but otherwise I'm here
[05:29] <sabdfl> gosh
[05:29] <sabdfl> that's the best entry to a cc meeting i've ever seen
[05:29] <sivang> heheh
[05:29] <Mirv> Linux is quite known in Finland naturally, because of Linus, but still all the magazines are only PC-centric and largely interested in MS stuff
[05:29] <mako> Mirv: i hope that works out for you.. and your hamster
[05:29] <sivang> sabdfl: he did that just to get famous :)
[05:29] <sabdfl> Mirv, where are you based?
[05:29] <Mirv> mako: yeah, no prob, the hamster is now safe.
[05:30] <Mirv> sabdfl: I'm in northern Helsinki
[05:30] <sabdfl> are there multiple languages spoken in finland?
[05:30] <sabdfl> indigenous languages?
[05:31] <Mirv> sabdfl: yes, Finnish and Swedish are official languages because of historical reasons and that 6% of the people have Swedish as their primary language
[05:31] <Kamion> /usr/share/i18n/SUPPORTED lists fi_FI and sv_FI
[05:31] <sabdfl> Lap?
[05:31] <mako> http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=Finland
[05:31] <Mirv> in practise the bilinguality is limited to official stuff, and most Finnish people know English much better than Swedish
[05:33] <sabdfl> wow, that's an awesome site
[05:33] <mako> sabdfl: it *really* is
[05:33] <Mirv> in addition to Finnish, Swedish, Lappish is recognized for the few people who speak it as their mother tongue
[05:33] <sivang> mako: btw, have you been contacted for arabic team leads?  I was trying to push some peopel to maybe voulnteer for that, and even has one linux new newbie as candidate, but he won't be available until he finishes his CS degree... , from my talks over #arabeyes --> "We'd better contrib to debina etc etc.."
[05:33] <sabdfl> Mirv: would it be interesting to people to have Ubuntu translated into Lappish?
[05:33] <ogra> sabdfl, Kamion: dholbach wasnt approved for upload last time, but he already has sponsored uploads in universe, it would be a big help for MOT if he could get approved 
[05:33] <mako> sivang: i have been contacted by arabic speaking people.. but not by anybody who introduced themself as such
[05:34] <sivang> mako: when, you have names? (from .il ?)
[05:34] <sivang> mako: and good to know :)
[05:34] <sabdfl> ogra: for universe, you plus one other can approve him
[05:35] <Mirv> sabdfl: it would be, but there are only about 6000-7000 of them in Finland. anyway, it'd be interesting to see if anything could be done to translate Linux/Ubuntu to Lappish.
[05:35] <ogra> sabdfl: i know.... but the other was missing last time ;)
[05:35] <mako> there are also several very different dialects apparently
[05:35] <sabdfl> any other TB / CC member comfortable enough with dholbach's work to second him on a fast-track?
[05:36] <sabdfl> ok
[05:36] <Mirv> yes, there are 10 different Lappish languages...
[05:36] <sivang> wow
[05:36] <sabdfl> Mirv, what are your plans for Ubuntu in Finland?
[05:36] <ogra> Kamion: did you find time to look over his coaster paqckages ?
[05:37] <Kamion> ogra: no, as it turns out, sorry :(
[05:37] <sabdfl> Kamion, could you ask one person on the distro team to review dholbach's work within 48 hours, and give a straight yes / no?
[05:37] <sabdfl> you or anyone you trust to advise you?
[05:38] <Kamion> I'll try lamont
[05:38] <ogra> sabdfl, Kamion: amu already sponsored uploads for him....
[05:38] <ogra> so he may know his work
[05:38] <sabdfl> amu isn't TB / CC / MOTU
[05:38] <mako> Mirv: your work and interest on the finish team (past, present and future) is appreciated :)
[05:38] <Kamion> I don't know amu as well
[05:39] <amu> sabdfl: nope, neighter offical on the distro team 
[05:39] <ogra> sabdfl, but he could give a hint on the packages :)
[05:39] <sabdfl> sure
[05:39] <Kamion> (which is no offence to amu, just a transitive-trust thing :))
[05:39] <sabdfl> ok guys
[05:39] <sabdfl> can we wrap up? any other business?
[05:39] <mako> yes
[05:40] <mako> we had one person on the list of candidates who was not approved yet, correct?
[05:40] <amu> Kamion: hehe :) 
[05:40] <sabdfl> i have another meeting starting
[05:40] <sabdfl> my apologies, i thought this was moved to 20h00 UTC, but that's next week's TB meeting
[05:40] <ogra> mako: which one...do we need sabdfl for that ?
[05:40] <sabdfl> mako, can you chair from here on?
[05:40] <mako> sabdfl: we can approve the rest w/o you
[05:40] <mako> sabdfl: yes, no problem
[05:40] <Treenaks> sabdfl: I wouldn't mind this meeting moving to 2000 UTC as well
[05:40] <Treenaks> next time
[05:40] <sabdfl> would like to hear a more detailed plan from mirv on ideas in finland
[05:40] <Mirv> basically I saw that some people had already joined #ubuntu-fi, but there was no "official" way Finnish Ubuntu users could reach each other. I'm hoping to correct this, and see if Finnish Ubuntu community could prosper
[05:41] <sabdfl> ok, cheers all
[05:41] <mako> can we go through the list of maintainers?
[05:41] <mako> ajmitch: you taken care of?
[05:41] <Mirv> I'd also like to see that any Ubuntu-specific packages are translated to Finnish
[05:42] <ogra> mako: was approved today
[05:42] <mako> we handled tseng last week, IIRC
[05:42] <ogra> yup
[05:42] <Treenaks> mako: ajmitch has been approved today, afaik
[05:42] <mako> dholbach is going to be taken care of today
[05:42] <mako> chuck short?
[05:42] <elmo> ajmitch has been done
[05:42] <zul> last week
[05:42] <ogra> zul was approved last week
[05:42] <mako> (i watched ghostbusters this weekend)
[05:43] <Mirv> well, I'll contact sabdfl anyway on these things at some point, because of the Lappish things etc.
[05:43] <zul> mako: yeah yeah
[05:43] <mako> Mirv: you can also work/discuss this diretly with other tb members of the rosetta people
[05:43] <mako> Mirv: which might be faster :)
[05:43] <mako> so scott richie
[05:43] <ogra> mako: YokoZar is awaiting package review first.....since he took a huge package as first one....(wine and friends)
[05:43] <mako> scott ritchie even
[05:43] <mako> ok, wow
[05:43] <Mirv> mako: tb=?
[05:44] <mako> ogra: so you're going to suggest waiting on that
[05:44] <Treenaks> Mirv: tech board
[05:44] <ogra> mako: haggai has it on his list....
[05:44] <ogra> mako: lets wait for his ok then
[05:44] <mako> Mirv: yeah, i mean cc instead of tb
[05:44] <mako> alright, sounds fair enough
[05:44] <mako> so that's the agenda
[05:44] <mako> is there any other business?
[05:44] <ogra> Mirv: tb=technical board
[05:45] <mako> going once...
[05:45] <mako> Kamion, elmo: other business?
[05:45] <elmo> not from me
[05:46] <mako> anyone else?
[05:46] <mako> next meeting...
[05:47] <mako> is 1600 really problematic for anyuone on the CC?
[05:47] <mako> otherwise, i'd be alright w/ sticking with it
[05:47] <sivang> i'm ok with it
[05:47] <elmo> I prefer it to the 2000 UTC of TB, certainly, FWIW
[05:47] <ogra> an hour later would be nioce for europe, but a pita for au i guess....
[05:48] <mako> alright then, lets keep it at 1600
[05:48] <mako> if for no other reason than half of the people will forget if we change it :)
[05:48] <mako> (including me)
[05:48] <mako> next meeting Feb 22, 1600UTC
[05:49] <mako> see you all then
[05:49] <Treenaks> OK
[05:49] <Treenaks> mako: not later?
[05:49] <Treenaks> (1600 is a really bad time here in CET :))
[05:50] <mako> Treenaks: elmo expressed a desire to not have it later and i'm hesitant to change slightly
[05:51] <elmo> well, I'm not trying to be awkard ,if there's a consensus it should be later, that's fine by me.  you just asked for opinion so I gave mine :)
[05:51] <mako> i like 1600 too
[05:51] <Treenaks> ok
[05:51] <mako> but i guess later is the same for me
[05:52] <Treenaks> 1700 UTC would be better for me, or 1500 UTC.. 1600 is in the middle of my commute
[05:52] <mako> Treenaks: ahh, ok
[05:53] <mako> Treenaks: earlier becomes unmanigable for the west coast of the us
[05:53] <ogra> i guess this matches many europeans.....
[05:53] <sivang> mako: just make the announcement for he new time for the CC on the main apge of the website :)
[05:53] <Treenaks> mako: yeah, I can see that
[05:53] <mako> sivang: of course
[05:53] <sivang> (or I'll forget it also)
[05:53] <sivang> :)
[05:53] <mako> Treenaks: and later gets into the evening for folks in europe
[05:53] <mako> there is no way we keep everyone people happy :)
[05:54] <Kamion> no other business from me, sorry I was away for a few minutes
[05:54] <Treenaks> mako: 17:00 UTC is 18:00 CET, 19:00 for Finland, Greece, Israel (or 20:00 for Israel?) afaik
[05:55] <sivang> Treenaks: 19:00 for israel
[05:55] <sivang> (+2 hours
[05:57] <mako> Treenaks: fabbione is, i know, very against having the meeting any later because he does them from/for work and likes to keep a normal workday
[05:58] <mako> Treenaks: i think the only real solution is a rotating time
[05:58] <ogra> ahem....just reading the log...... wasnt reply to on the agenda ?
[05:58] <Treenaks> mako: that would be OK, I think
[05:58] <mako> ogra: first thing
[05:58] <ogra> mako: i cant find anything in the logs.... did you talk about it ?
[05:59] <mako> ogra:  we talked about and there has no negative feedback so far.. since it's been less than two weeks since the switch happened, w are going to bring it up again at the next meeting
[06:00] <ogra> mako: hmm, no negtive feedback, sure, but a guy who recived gmail invite answers acidently to the list ;)
[06:00] <mako> ogra: i haven't seen that one yet :)
[06:00] <ogra> which were sent by another guy by PM ;)
[06:00] <ogra> was quite funny to read.....
[06:03] <sivang> ogra: lol
[06:10] <zul> boo
[06:10] <fabbione> ok that's the situation
[06:11] <fabbione> i am going to leave for holidays the 17th
[06:11] <fabbione> so from tomorrow till the 17th
[06:11] <fabbione> and excluding this weekend
[06:11] <lamont_r> moo
[06:11] <fabbione> i will be your kernel bitch :-)
[06:11] <zul> wohoo! :)
[06:11] <fabbione> basically i would like you to start looking at the package
[06:11] <thom> whaddyamean, excluding the weekend? slackarse
[06:11] <fabbione> +s
[06:11] <fabbione> .10 and .11
[06:12] <zul> is .11 around?
[06:12] <fabbione> thom: sorry.. getting married this weekend.. i really can't find a good excuse to skip it
[06:12] <zul> i did ;)
[06:12] <thom> pfft, miserable excuse
[06:12] <fabbione> zul: not yet.. i am still fixing some minor compilation problems
[06:12] <ogra> absolutely
[06:12] <zul> k
[06:12] <fabbione> i plan to upload .11 tomorrow
[06:13] <fabbione> and it does not need the same love as .10
[06:13] <fabbione> but it needs at least to be in sync
[06:13] <fabbione> use .11 as test bed basically
[06:13] <zul> well ill be working on usb this week and ill add the wiki page for todo at least start it
[06:13] <fabbione> since it has all possible updates
[06:13] <fabbione> zul: ok. let's open a kernel/ on the wiki
[06:13] <zul> k
[06:14] <fabbione> that includes the TODO
[06:14] <fabbione> i will add all the stuff there
[06:14] <fabbione> (tomorrow)
[06:14] <zul> yep no problems
[06:14] <fabbione> i want you to get confident in managing the package too
[06:15] <fabbione> specially when there is the need to change ABI
[06:15] <fabbione> so any question you have, either drop me a mail
[06:15] <fabbione> or catch me on irc
[06:15] <lamont_r> fabbione: can I disappear for a bit? (fire call)
[06:15] <fabbione> sure
[06:15] <fabbione> i have done
[06:15] <fabbione> it was just to sum up the last bits
[06:16] <zul> it shouldnt be too dificult to understand if i have any questions ill either ask lamont or someone else or email you
[06:16] <fabbione> before the 17th i would like the 3 leaders to take over
[06:16] <lamont_r> ok.
[06:16] <lamont_r> bbiab then
[06:16] <fabbione> lamont_r: later
[06:16] <zul> toodles lamont
[06:16] <fabbione> and start uploading kernels
[06:16] <zul> neat
[06:17] <fabbione> eta for new leaders to take over is no later than next tuesday
[06:17] <fabbione> so i will be around for 2 days just in case
[06:17] <fabbione> after that you are on your own for 2 weeks (at least)
[06:17] <zul> sounds good do you want to relay the info to t-bone?
[06:17] <fabbione> zul: the chan is logged ;)
[06:17] <fabbione> http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-meeting-current.html
[06:17] <zul> duh
[06:17] <fabbione> he can read here
[06:18] <zul> anything else?
[06:18] <fabbione> not from me
[06:18] <fabbione> any question?
[06:18] <fabbione> no
[06:18] <zul> nope if i think of antyhing ill ask
[06:18] <fabbione> lamont_r, zul, T-Bone: you are the weakest link. KTHXBYE!
[06:19] <zul> buh bye
[06:47] <zul> lamont_r you might want to scroll back
[06:47] <lamont_r> yeah
[06:48] <lamont_r> actually, I need stuff from before I joined the channel, it appears
[06:48] <lamont_r> reading the log
[06:51] <lamont_r> fabbione: what TZ are the logs in? +2, or 0?
[06:52] <lamont_r> damn funky tz is what they are...
[06:52] <lamont_r> +13 wow
[06:52] <zul> lamont_r which timezone are you ni?
[06:53] <mdz> are you guys finished with this channel?
[06:53] <zul> yep
[07:02] <mdz> Kamion, haggai: ping?
[07:05] <haggai> mdz: pong
[07:06] <mdz> ok, waiting for Kamion
[07:09] <Kamion> mdz: pong
[07:11] <mdz> Kamion: hi
[07:11] <mdz> so, first order of business is to sort out the package lists for kubuntu
[07:12] <mdz> seeds and germinate
[07:12] <Kamion> I suggest branching the hoary seeds archive
[07:12] <mdz> sounds logical
[07:12] <amu> yep, i packaged a kubuntu-meta, which is probably a good base for a seed   
[07:13] <Kamion> other way round probably (see ubuntu-meta), but yes
[07:13] <mdz> what about main vs. universe issues?
[07:13] <Kamion> the seeds archive is currently on chinstrap; any suggestions for a better place to put it?
[07:13] <Kamion> that's just a matter of running germinate in a different way
[07:13] <Kamion> i.e. -c main,restricted,universe,multiverse (with current germinate)
[07:13] <haggai> I've been holding off on moving to main until really necessary, but now sounds like a reasonable time to move to main
[07:13] <mdz> rookery would be a fine place
[07:14] <Kamion> mdz: no more people have shell access to that than to chinstrap, though
[07:14] <Kamion> we have read-only access on rookery already
[07:14] <mdz> we don't have public webdav yet
[07:14] <mdz> we can put it on chinstrap in the interest of expedience, and amu can commit to it at least
[07:14] <Kamion> others can branch and request merges ...
[07:15] <mdz> or it can be hosted somewhere else, and we can mirror it
[07:15] <haggai> I have a contract to sign so perhaps I can ask for an account there too
[07:15] <amu> mdz: thats fine with me    
[07:16] <haggai> (the contract is for amu but covers the company, so may be enough)
[07:16] <mdz> amu: have you worked with baz much?  would you be able to create the branch and such?
[07:16] <amu> ... putting it on chinstrap .. 
[07:16] <Kamion> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/SeedManagement
[07:16] <amu> mdz: never, only checked out code serveral times 
[07:16] <Kamion> I'll create the branch for you if you'd rather
[07:16] <Kamion> just tell me what it should be called; kubuntu-hoary?
[07:17] <amu> Kamion: yes please 
[07:17] <haggai> kubuntu-hoary sounds good
[07:17] <mdz> or hoary-kubuntu?
[07:17] <mdz> or khoary? ;-)
[07:17] <Kamion> actually, shouldn't it be kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com/... rather than ubuntu-devel@?
[07:17] <Kamion> i.e. a different archive
[07:18] <mdz> makes no difference to me
[07:18] <Kamion> then we can just have kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com/seeds--hoary--0
[07:18] <mdz> this damage goes away with baz-ng anyway ;-)
[07:18] <mdz> let's do that
[07:19] <mdz> unless there are strong feelings to the contrary
[07:19] <haggai> sounds fine to me
[07:19] <mdz> Kamion, can you get germinate set up for that branch?
[07:20] <Kamion> working
[07:20] <mdz> I didn't necessarily mean right now, while we're talking, but ok ;-)
[07:20] <Kamion> yes, will do
[07:20] <mdz> amu: did you look at how ubuntu-meta works?
[07:20] <mdz> it downloads a copy of the seeds and generates the metapackages based on that
[07:21] <amu> mdz: for a live it works, i would say there are no known conflicts
[07:21] <mdz> kubuntu-meta should use the same approach
[07:21] <Kamion> ok, 'baz register-archive sftp://chinstrap/home/warthogs/archives/kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com; baz get kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com/seeds--hoary--0'
[07:21] <amu> live=liveCD 
[07:21] <Kamion> I'll set up public mirrors and stuff too
[07:22] <mdz> amu: I don't understand
[07:22] <mdz> amu: I'm talking about the infrastructure to create the metapackages
[07:23] <mdz> amu: kubuntu-meta should be derived from kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com/seeds--hoary--0
[07:23] <mdz> start with the control/rules/update stuff from ubuntu-meta, and modify it for kubuntu
[07:23] <mdz> change the URL to point to Kamion's public mirror
[07:24] <mdz> and then it will generate the dependencies for you
[07:24] <mdz> ok?
[07:24] <amu> mdz: i did it otherwise, copied from the ubuntu-meta und changed the packages .. 
[07:24] <mdz> ...
[07:25] <amu> mdz: sure, i understood this, how the metapackages will be created
[07:25] <mdz> ok, as long as the result is the same
[07:25] <mdz> kubuntu-meta doesn't seem to be in hoary yet; can you upload it today?
[07:25] <mdz> or tomorrow?
[07:26] <amu> i'll do my best  
[07:26] <mdz> Kamion: how will we work the package selection in the installer?
[07:26] <elmo> err, can I ask some meta questions?
[07:27] <mdz> elmo: yeah, we're short on time though
[07:27] <elmo> where's kubuntu going?
[07:27] <mdz> same place as Ubuntu
[07:27] <Kamion> mdz: I'm willing to work to a spec
[07:27] <Kamion> mdz: but I don't know the right answer
[07:27] <elmo> mdz: as in, it'll be _in_ Ubuntu?
[07:27] <elmo> no separate Packages files or release schedule or anything?
[07:27] <mdz> elmo: they will be different lists of packages to install, within the same release
[07:27] <mdz> for now anyway
[07:28] <mdz> Kamion: what's the simplest way to get different desktop sets without branching d-i?
[07:28] <mdz> Kamion: preseed a variable with the name of the task?
[07:28] <elmo> right, but from a purely selfish (i.e. archive) point of view, the packages will still be in pool/main/ ?
[07:28] <mdz> elmo: yes
[07:28] <amu> elmo,mdz: the release schedule of kde is different than ours
[07:28] <elmo> ok
[07:29] <Kamion> mdz: preseed file, yeah
[07:29] <Kamion> mdz: base-config/package-selection (Ubuntu addition) supports this sort of stuff; it defaults to ~tubuntu-desktop
[07:29] <amu> kde release, if hoary is released
[07:29] <Kamion> ideally I'd get Task: kubuntu-desktop lines or similar
[07:30] <mdz> amu: we can talk about releases once we have a distribution
[07:30] <mdz> elmo: can Task: kubuntu-desktop be arranged?
[07:30] <mdz> hmm, probably not
[07:30] <elmo> sure?
[07:30] <mdz> can a package be in more than one Task sanely?
[07:30] <mdz> does aptitude actually handle that?
[07:30] <elmo> sure?
[07:30] <mdz> hm, ok
[07:31] <elmo> console-cyrillic        Task    cyrillic, russian, ukrainian
[07:31] <Kamion> it happens all the time in Debian
[07:31] <elmo> ^-- from Debian
[07:31] <Kamion> public mirror of the above archive: http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
[07:31] <mdz> elmo: ok, so you'll translate the kubuntu germinate output into tasks?
[07:32] <elmo> mdz: can do, yeah
[07:32] <mdz> amu: can you commit the changes to the seeds on your own, or do you need help with it?
[07:33] <Kamion> ... and public checkout (for use by germinate) at http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/seeds/kubuntu-hoary/
[07:33] <mdz> Kamion: thanks
[07:33] <amu> mdz: need some help at beginning, never worked with it
[07:33] <mdz> Kamion: when do you think you can fit some time to set up germinate?
[07:34] <Kamion> germinate doesn't need to be set up
[07:34] <Kamion> it should just work
[07:34] <mdz> oh?
[07:34] <mdz> where will the kubuntu output go?
[07:34] <Kamion> germinate.py -s kubuntu-hoary -a $ARCH -c main,restricted,universe,multiverse
[07:35] <mdz> for elmo, sure, but shouldn't we have published germinate output at some point?
[07:35] <Kamion> mdz: the output in ~cjwatson/germinate-hoary-output/ and the like is purely informational, I don't think anything automatic uses it
[07:35] <mdz> if amu and haggai don't need it, ok
[07:36] <mdz> elmo: what about anastacia?
[07:36] <elmo> Kamion: I don't even need to update my germinate ?
[07:36] <Kamion> elmo: no, just run with that -s
[07:36] <elmo> mdz: if I run germinate.py for kubuntu-hoary too, anastacia will pick anything in there up
[07:37] <Kamion> elmo: (I'm assuming you have a germinate vaguely recent enough to understand -s)
[07:37] <mdz> ok
[07:37] <elmo> she just works on the concatenation of 'all' files from all the germinate runs I do
[07:37] <mdz> perfect
[07:37] <Kamion> running germinate now, output going to http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/germinate-output/kubuntu-hoary/
[07:38] <Kamion> amu: grab me first time you need to make a seed change, I'll walk you through it
[07:38] <amu> Kamion: thx
[07:38] <mdz> let's get the initial seed list in place right away; that's a prerequisite for everything else
[07:38] <Kamion> amu: do you have bazaar installed?
[07:38] <amu> yep
[07:39] <mdz> amu: do you have a checkout of the seeds?  Kamion gave the commands above
[07:39] <Kamion> 18:21 < Kamion> ok, 'baz register-archive sftp://chinstrap/home/warthogs/archives/kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com; baz get kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com/seeds--hoary--0'
[07:39] <amu> mdz: yep
[07:39] <Kamion> amu: make changes, then "baz commit -s 'summary of your changes'"
[07:39] <mdz> amu: ok, so they're just text files, with items delimited with ' * '
[07:39] <Kamion> amu: oh, you'll need to set up gpg signing
[07:39] <mdz> oh hell
[07:40] <Kamion> amu: mkdir -p ~/.arch-params/signing; echo 'gpg --clearsign' > ~/.arch-params/signing/=default
[07:40] <mdz> echo 'tla-gpg-check gpg_command="gpg --verify-files -"' > ~/.arch-params/signing/=default.check
[07:40] <Kamion> make that bazaar-gpg-check
[07:41] <mdz> good call
[07:41] <mdz> er
[07:41] <mdz> no, there is no baz-gpg-check
[07:41] <mdz> or else it's in a package I don't have?
[07:41] <mdz> tla-gpg-check is in tla
[07:41] <Kamion> bazaar-gpg-check was not a typo
[07:41] <mdz> right
[07:41] <mdz> I didn't read what you wrote at all
[07:42] <mdz> amu: ok?
[07:42] <Kamion> amu: er, anyway, are you following? the above should let baz do signed commits to your seeds archive
[07:42] <Kamion> if you disentangle mdz and me debating it
[07:43] <amu> Kamion: gpg-check done
[07:43] <amu> Kamion: yes, i'm following ... 
[07:44] <mdz> amu: now you can edit one of the files (just add a comment or whitespace or something) and commit it as a test
[07:44] <mdz> it should prompt for your gpg passphrase
[07:45] <amu> just a second, looks like proxy isnt enabled from my desk
[07:45] <elmo> ugh, cron.sync is getting hideous
[07:46] <Kamion> cron.sync?
[07:46] <elmo> the thing that runs germinate
[07:51] <amu> ok, checkout done 
[07:54] <mdz> amu: <mdz> amu: now you can edit one of the files (just add a comment or whitespace or something) and commit it as a test
[07:54] <mdz> make the change, then "baz commit" just like cvs
[07:54] <Kamion> oh, I would recommend not changing 'base'
[07:54] <elmo> could someone commit kdelibs or something so I can test the Task kubuntu-desktop stuff?
[07:54] <Kamion> or indeed generating a separate metapackage for it, at the moment
[07:54] <mdz> agreed
[07:55] <Kamion> I haven't worked out how to handle having separate debootstrap scripts for Ubuntu and Kubuntu yet
[07:55] <Kamion> I'd prefer not to unless I absolutely have to :)
[07:55] <amu> summary: what i changed ? keywords:? 
[07:55] <mdz> amu: summary should be a one-line description of the change
[07:55] <Kamion>     Summary:
[07:55] <Kamion>       move English language pack from supported to ship
[07:55] <mdz> amu: keywords should be empty
[07:55] <Kamion>     Summary:
[07:55] <Kamion>       bump kernel udebs to 2.6.10-3
[07:56] <Kamion>     Summary:
[07:56] <Kamion>       Add openoffice.org2 packages to supported
[07:56] <Kamion> that sort of thing
[07:56] <mdz> amu: if you have more to say, you can write a paragraph at the bottom, but that is optional
[07:56] <mdz> with the seeds, usually there is only a summary
[07:57] <amu> done, please check
[07:59] <mdz> no change to the archive
[07:59] <mdz> please paste the output from your commit\
[08:00] <mdz> amu: please paste the output from your commit
[08:00] <amu> amu@ppc:~/seeds--hoary--0--base-0 $ baz commit
[08:00] <amu> * no log found, creating one automatically
[08:00] <amu> * (Use "tla make-log" to create a log file.)
[08:00] <amu> Password:
[08:00] <amu> WARNING: no rule found for checking signatures from kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
[08:00] <mdz> Kamion: do you need to go?
[08:00] <amu>   Consider creating ~/.arch-params/signing/kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com.check
[08:00] <amu>   or ~/.arch-params/signing/=default.check
[08:00] <amu> M  base
[08:00] <amu> arch: no arch user id set
[08:00] <amu> amu@ppc:~/seeds--hoary--0--base-0 $
[08:00] <mdz> that was a fatal error
[08:00] <Kamion> amu: 'baz my-id "Andreas Mueller <your@email.address>"'
[08:01] <Kamion> mdz: I have about 25 minutes
[08:01] <mdz> amu: I gave you the command above to create =default.check
[08:01] <mdz> echo 'bazaar-gpg-check gpg_command="gpg --verify-files -"' > ~/.arch-params/signing/=default.check
[08:01] <Kamion> the .check thing was not fatal, the user id bit was fatal
[08:01] <mdz> Kamion: yes, I know
[08:01] <mdz> but you already told him how to fix that
[08:01] <Kamion> ok :)
[08:01] <amu> Kamion: i've to set into my .profile ? 
[08:02] <Kamion> amu: no, just run that once
[08:02] <amu> mdz: i did :) letme check
[08:02] <Kamion> baz remembers it
[08:03] <Kamion> amu: oh, you might like to rename the checkout directory to something without --base-0 in it; it's technically harmless but will confuse you
[08:03] <Kamion> I don't know why baz does that by default :-/
[08:03] <amu> ah now it ask about my gpg pass
[08:03] <amu> * update pristine tree (kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com/seeds--hoary--0--base-0=> seeds--hoary--0--patch-1)
[08:03] <amu> * committed kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com/seeds--hoary--0--patch-1
[08:04] <Kamion> that worked, although I did ask not to change base for now :-)
[08:05] <Kamion> anyway, I expect it will take a while to get the Kubuntu seeds set up right; can we do the other stuff I'm needed for first, if possible?
[08:06] <mdz> Kamion: I think the next steps for you are the installer package selection, and from there CD building
[08:06] <mdz> that's the end of my list
[08:06] <mdz> anything I've overlooked?
[08:06] <Kamion> ok, installer package selection is a matter of somebody telling me what aptitude pattern to install
[08:06] <Kamion> it ties in with CD building
[08:07] <mdz> oh, I thought that was hardcoded in d-i at the moment
[08:07] <mdz> er, base-config
[08:07] <Kamion> it's the default value in a debconf template; it can be preseeded to something different
[08:07] <Kamion> (and already is, in server installs)
[08:07] <mdz> oh, great, I didn't realize that had been done already
[08:07] <mdz> that'll be kubuntu-desktop, then
[08:07] <Kamion> ok
[08:07] <mdz> ~tkubuntu-desktop
[08:08] <Kamion> are the CD images going on cdimage.ubuntu.com, or elsewhere?
[08:08] <Kamion> in either case, where exactly?
[08:08] <mdz> I don't see a reason to build them anyplace other than little
[08:09] <mdz> as for where they're mirrored to, that's up to elmo, but I imagine the same places as for ubuntu
[08:10] <Kamion> right, I meant the mirror bit
[08:10] <mdz> elmo?
[08:11] <Kamion> (it's perhaps worth noting that the DVD can be a combined Ubuntu/Kubuntu installer, if everything fits ...)
[08:11] <mdz> Kamion: how soon are we likely to run up against that problem?
[08:11] <haggai> guys, I need to go sorry.  Looks like you have everything sorted with amu
[08:11] <Kamion> mdz: which problem?
[08:11] <mdz> haggai: can we catch up later on bounty stuff?
[08:11] <mdz> Kamion: where to mirror the ISOs
[08:11] <haggai> mdz: sure I'll ping you later
[08:11] <Kamion> mdz: as soon as I set up CD building
[08:12] <elmo> I think the isos should eventually go on kubuntu.com, certaintly for releases
[08:12] <mdz> Kamion: and when will you have a chance to do that?  you said recently that you still have things on your plate for feature freeze, which would be higher priority
[08:12] <elmo> cdimage.u.c is fine for now, as no one sane mirrors it anyway
[08:12] <Kamion> mdz: (I was partly fending off thully)
[08:13] <Kamion> pretty much all of my feature freeze work's done now; so grab me as soon as the seeds are vaguely sensible, basically
[08:13] <Kamion> I'll stick them in http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/daily/ for now them
[08:13] <Kamion> then
[08:14] <elmo> I'll try and get kubuntu.com DNS to somewhere useful
[08:14] <mdz> amu: are you confident in completing the work on the seeds?
[08:14] <mdz> amu: you should only need to change desktop at this point
[08:14] <amu> yep, i understood now, how it works
[08:15] <Kamion> oh, one thing
[08:15] <amu> yep, just looking it into 
[08:15] <Kamion> amu: keep an eye on the 'deb size' figures at the bottom of base, desktop, and supported in germinate-output
[08:15] <Kamion> sorry, base, desktop, and ship
[08:15] <Kamion> you need to make sure the sum of those does not exceed the size of a CD minus a bit for the installer :)
[08:16] <amu> Kamion: ok, i've to remmove openoffice on my test live kde is bigger than the gnome one
[08:17] <Kamion> well, you have koffice
[08:17] <elmo> gnome has abiword ;)
[08:17] <amu> ;) 
[08:17] <mdz> not on the CD
[08:17] <amu> openoffice rocks
[08:18] <haggai> rock OOo :)
[08:18] <mdz> Kamion: hmm, we have a problem
[08:18] <mdz> Kamion: ubuntu-base is in the base seed
[08:18] <mdz> I guess that's ok
[08:19] <Kamion> mdz: changing that would involve changing debootstrap anyway
[08:19] <mdz> right
[08:19] <Kamion> amu: I suggest you check out germinate and get used to running it by hand
[08:20] <Kamion> amu: the seeds checkout on people.u.c/~cjwatson/ is updated within 17 minutes of a commit; if you want output faster, or if you want to test before committing, change the SEEDS variable at the top of germinate.py
[08:20] <amu> running it by hand? 
[08:21] <mdz> amu: germinate is a Python program
[08:21] <mdz> you can run it on the command line and it outputs a bunch of files
[08:22] <Kamion> germinate is a program whose input is seeds and whose output is a dependency-expanded list of packages with some additional information
[08:22] <Kamion> so that we don't have to write all the dependencies into the seeds by hand
[08:23] <amu> i c, so germinate run on my local desk and checks my seed?  
[08:24] <Kamion> germinate gets run automatically (a) by the archive scripts to work out what should be in main, (b) by the CD image building scripts to work out what should be on CDs, (c) informationally for http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/germinate-output/*
[08:24] <Kamion> amu: yes, provided you fiddle with SEEDS to point at the right place
[08:24] <Kamion> if you don't modify SEEDS, it will use the official seeds
[08:27] <mdz> amu: http://www.ubuntu.com/wiki/SeedManagement
[08:27] <amu> ah now got it. After an commit germinate will check within 17min., and the output therefore is at ~cjwatson/      
[08:28] <Kamion> more that it takes 17 minutes for various cron jobs to shuffle commits to the seeds archive over to ~cjwatson/seeds/
[08:28] <Kamion> in order that they are visible to unmodified germinate
[08:30] <amu> is there something more i should take special care? something i could break?
[08:30] <Kamion> basically best keep your changes to {desktop,ship,supported} for now, should only need to be desktop
[08:30] <Kamion> if you break anything by doing that, it's a bug :)
[08:31] <Kamion> 'baz update' every so often, as usual with revision control
[08:31] <Kamion> only stuff prefixed by ' * ' ends up in the output
[08:32] <Kamion> if you need help with germinate, I maintain it, so feel free to mail me or ping me on IRC
[08:34] <amu> sound good, thanks
[08:36] <Kamion> I have to go now; good luck :)