=== pitti [~martin@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pitti [~martin@box79162.elkhouse.de] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === reformed_ [nobody@junkybox.pacific.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Simira [rpGirl@m146i.studby.ntnu.no] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Kamion [~cjwatson@host81-153-126-219.range81-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === apokryphos [~apokrypho@81-178-204-43.dsl.pipex.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Lovechild [~dnielsen@82.150.72.35] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === apokryphos [~apokrypho@81-178-204-43.dsl.pipex.com] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Kopete] === dholbach [~dholbach@td9091ab2.pool.terralink.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pitti [~martin@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pitti [~martin@box79162.elkhouse.de] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === pitti [~martin@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pitti [~martin@box79162.elkhouse.de] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === zul [~chuck@198.62.158.205] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [02:45] whoo...right in time [02:45] you have plenty of time [02:45] goody [02:45] it's at 15:00 UTC [02:45] oh, that right... today. Have to get on soon then [02:46] bleah...im not use to utc yet [02:46] fabbione: 15 utc? [02:46] kernel meeting at 15:00 UTC [02:46] fabbione: ah alright [02:46] as announced on ubuntu-devel [02:46] well back to tomcat and iis then yay! [02:47] zul: have fun, hope the docs have improved since the last time i did that [02:47] ;P [02:48] they havent [02:48] but i know now who i can bother :) [02:48] doh [02:48] i should note the last time i looked was in tomcat3 era ;P [02:49] damn [02:49] best part of 5 years ago :-) === jbailey [~jbailey@CPE000ded9d787c-CM014260028338.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:fabbione] : Tuesday 08 February 2005 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team meeting -- 16:00 UTC Community Council meeting -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda || Tuesday 15 February 2005 20:00 UTC: Technical Board -- http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda. || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel [03:52] so who is here for the kernel meeting besides fabbione === mvo_ [~egon@ip181.135.1511I-CUD12K-01.ish.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [03:53] lamont might be late [03:54] k === T-Bone [~cgiirc@shirka.esiee.fr] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pitti [~martin@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [03:54] hey pitti [03:54] Hi zul === T-Bone [varenet@T-Bone.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === piooo [~Miranda@gprs2.plusgsm.pl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [04:00] hi everybody [04:00] heylo === sivang [~sivang@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [04:00] ola [04:00] it's time to start and build up this team [04:00] and very fast [04:00] first of all we need a temporary team leader while i will be away [04:01] but if there are no objections we will wait to discuss this issue when lamont is back [04:01] in the meantime, is there any voluteer for that position? [04:01] it should be a cannonical employee imho [04:01] zul: why? [04:01] i don't see the need of that since it is a temporary team leader [04:01] fabbione: or with someone with access to main [04:02] zul: according to the wiki there is a "packager" position === dilinger [dilinger@mouth.voxel.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [04:02] there is no need for team leader to be also the packager [04:02] hi dilinger [04:02] hello :) [04:02] dilinger: in short. i am asking around if there is any volunteer as temporary team leader while i will be away [04:03] if no one else does it ill do it [04:03] but we will wait for lamont to take the final decision [04:03] fabbione you'll be off for 1 month, right? If the leader isn't the packager, what's his role (factually, so to speak)? [04:03] but ask lamont first [04:03] zul: noted [04:03] T-Bone: i will be off 2 weeks [04:03] ok [04:03] I can help then ;) [04:03] T-Bone: ok noted === makx [~max@baikonur.stro.at] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [04:04] but let's see what ladude has to say ;^) [04:04] ok [04:04] the next item in agenda is Procedures/Policies [04:04] we need to have some well defined procedures and policies [04:04] for people that wants to work in the team [04:05] that also describe how to maintain the package [04:05] procedures on how to request new drivers [04:05] policies for inclusions of new drivers [04:05] and so on. [04:05] this is important at this point in time [04:05] ok well everyone should state their interest [04:06] because kernel is "special" compared to other packages [04:06] and it easily violates Upstream VErsion Freeze [04:06] and Feature Freeze [04:06] heh === Mithrandir [~tfheen@vawad.err.no] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [04:06] is there any volunteer that would like to start drafting these documents [04:06] not me [04:06] and get in touch with ubuntu-doc team? [04:06] fabbione shouldn't the driver requests be managed through BTS? [04:07] T-Bone: yes, but that is not 100% clear [04:07] k [04:07] i still receive mail like: "Oh ubuntu kernel's God, please add...." [04:07] heh [04:07] fabbione i don't know what the new Ubuntu BTS look like, is it any closer to the Debian one? [04:08] because I think that such a featureful BTS would help a lot in that area... [04:08] T-Bone: that's offtopic. For now we have bugzilla and we will live with it [04:08] when we will switch to the new one we can ask for extensions [04:08] fabbione that may not be offtopic in the long run... [04:09] it's off-topic for the next two weeks :) [04:09] heh :) [04:09] so i guess there are no volunteers to start drafting documentation [04:09] fabbione: well, what *is* policy for new drivers? for debian, we're very strict about it since it is such a pain to maintain third party patches when forward porting to new kernels [04:09] dilinger: we have the same issue here, but we are a bit more flexible [04:10] we try to include what is supposed to have an active upstream [04:10] but we also kick out stuff that becomes dead [04:10] (see mISDN in warty -> killed in hoary) [04:10] until now i judged based on my own experience [04:10] but clearly that's not good enough in a team work [04:10] fabbione, Kamion : my point is that I don't see the interest of drafting some doc that will be obsoleted soon (assuming the new BTS comes up soon)... [04:11] it's not going to be usable for us for hoary at least [04:11] at least I don't think so [04:11] T-Bone: you still need procedures for qa and other stuff. there is not only the drivers or other details [04:11] makes sense then [04:11] fabbione roger that [04:11] and really documentation should only require patching for a change of bug tracking system, not a total rewrite [04:11] T-Bone: eg: when i need to release a kernel with major changes, i always ensure that it builds on all 6 arches [04:12] T-Bone: so you need some kind of document that says that you must do it [04:12] fabbione : heh, that's not enough. d-i is b0rken in ia64 with the new kernel ;) === T-Bone hides [04:12] fabbione : ok [04:12] T-Bone: also.. you want to document how to provide info to Kamion when some changes will arrive [04:13] see bumping the ABI [04:13] or adding/removing drivers [04:13] T-Bone: are you up for it? [04:13] right [04:13] fabbione : writing doc? No. === azeem [~mbanck@socks-out.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [04:14] any volunteer that would like to involve the doc team in writing them? [04:14] (since we have a doc team let see what they can do) [04:14] exactly we would juat have to proof read it [04:15] zul: exactly... [04:15] fabbione : why not asking the doc team if they wanna do it, and then give them what they need... === T-Bone concurs [04:15] any volunteer that would like to involve the doc team in writing them? === dholbach [~dholbach@td9091ab2.pool.terralink.de] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] [04:15] T-Bone: that's what i meant [04:15] ah ok [04:15] so anybody up to mail -doc? [04:15] s/Kamion/the installer team/g please (hoping that some day it'll be more than just me ...) [04:15] hehe === lamont gets back from the slow drive to school [04:16] Kamion: sorry Allmighty of D-I vahalla [04:16] sorry I'm laste [04:16] fabbione: :P [04:16] hey lamont [04:16] late, even [04:16] lamont: wb [04:16] ok i will mail enrico to involve the -doc team [04:17] we can go back to the first item since lamont is here [04:17] Temporary Team Leader [04:17] zul and T-Bone offer their availability [04:17] given that somebody can sponsor their uploads === lamont reads scrollback [04:17] fabbione i'm a maintainer. Don'tneed sponsor iirc [04:18] (read: full maintainer) [04:18] or whatever it's called ;) [04:18] T-Bone, zul: would you like to lead togehter? [04:18] sure [04:18] since between both of you, you can cover a wider range of TZ's [04:18] hehe ok. [04:18] what about lamont? [04:19] zul, T-Bone: after the meeting please stay around that we need to discuss some details [04:19] does anybody have any objections? [04:19] it's time to speak up, otherwise be silent forever :) [04:19] fabbione : i think lamont is reading scrollback [04:19] let's wait a few secs than === lamont catches up [04:20] if elected I will serve [04:20] lol [04:20] heh...fine with me [04:20] are we gonna have a 3 heads hydra for 2 weeks? ;) [04:20] fabbione: I'd be happy to be temp team leader, don't really want the headaches, but ... [04:21] i have no objections with any of you. [04:21] fabbione: well, since it's temporary, one doesn't have to be quiet forever. :P [04:21] so i think the best would be for you 2 to cooperate from the beginning [04:21] s/2/3 [04:21] with majority rules, or will there be a point-man? [04:21] lamont: majority rule works for me [04:21] same here for me as well [04:22] 'k [04:22] lamont has mentored me for my debian kernels, I'm fine with him ;) [04:22] since i am still the Team Emperor, i still decide... until the meeting is finished :) [04:22] hehe [04:22] fabbione: lol [04:22] after the meeting you are all fucked :P [04:22] hehe... [04:22] lol [04:22] ok let's keep going [04:23] Subsystem leaders [04:23] ooh...i elect myself as patch monkey [04:23] right now we only have mjg59 for acpi [04:24] is there anybody that feels confident with a specific subsystem? [04:24] like USB, alsa? [04:24] fabbione what are the eligible "subsystems"? [04:24] T-Bone: everything basically [04:24] and what's the role of the subsystem leader? [04:24] if you use XFS on 99,9% of your machines you are a perfect candidate to test XFS changes [04:25] lol [04:25] T-Bone: bugfixes/testing/patching [04:25] but if it is something you particulary like [04:25] it gets easier and nicer for you [04:25] sure [04:25] Mithrandir: iirc you have tons of hardware, right? ;) [04:26] fabbione: fair bunch, yes. I lack time, tho. [04:26] ok [04:26] I'm going to help out with anything amd64 specific I can. [04:26] well does anyone have ppc or have access to ppc? [04:26] fabbione: it's all about the same to me... I/O and process management are where most of my history is [04:26] so is there any person that would like to work on a specific subsystem? [04:27] zul: I have a PPC, but it's usually powered off. [04:27] Mithrandir: ok [04:27] zul: I use ppc as my main box, but it's pegasos not mac. === T-Bone can help with ia64/ppc/hppa specific stuff [04:27] that is great guys [04:27] please add your names to the wiki pages [04:27] page even [04:27] to the porter section [04:27] fabbione: what are the main problematic areas in the kernel? [04:27] fabbione : what about PPC porter btw? [04:27] Mithrandir: i was going right there with the TODO list [04:27] Mithrandir: I'm betting on vm :-) [04:28] ACPI, USB, alsa [04:28] Mithrandir, usb [04:28] amongst others [04:28] for ACPI mjg59 is pretty active [04:28] but we lack alsa and usb [04:28] ill work on usb [04:28] also ide-* needs some love [04:28] for what i can tell DMA is half broken [04:29] i can do ide stuff [04:29] dilinger: that would be great [04:29] ok for the subsystems guys.. please add your names to the wiki [04:30] is there anything else on this topic? [04:30] general block device stuff too, but i don't have any scsi hardware, so i can't test that [04:30] (we only have 30 minutes left) [04:30] dilinger: that is perfect [04:30] fabbione : don't we need a PPC porter? [04:30] now.. let's go to the TODO list === pitti [~martin@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [04:30] T-Bone: yes, but we don't have an official one [04:30] (maybe that's on the TODO list...) [04:31] The todo list needs to be built on the wiki [04:31] right now is only one long list in my head [04:31] fabbione: well i have a personal todo list that you know of [04:31] zul: and that i can't remember [04:31] fabbione: sounds like you';re the ideal person to write the TODO page [04:31] not all of it [04:31] heh [04:31] lamont: yes. that is right [04:31] but there are 2/3 items we need to discuss now [04:32] first of all [04:32] 2.6.10 and 2.6.11 [04:32] hoho [04:32] we are going to maintain 2 kernels in parallel [04:32] eek [04:32] not both of them in stable state [04:32] yuck [04:32] 2.6.11 is actually boiotstrapped on top 2.6.10+today's bk [04:32] T-Bone: fortunately powerpc tends to work reasonably well without particular attention, since it's a mainline architecture upstream [04:32] that i will upload tomorrow [04:33] Kamion : right. Except that a ppc porter could give some love to ppc-specific flavours (G5, pegasos...) [04:33] since we need to be able to sync bits between unstable/stable release [04:33] we also need a shared archive [04:33] T-Bone: that's not so much general powerpc as people with those specific bits of hardware, but yeah [04:33] fabbione: er, so 2.6.11 will be 2.6.11rc3+bk stuff? [04:33] dilinger: it will until 2.6.11 will be official out [04:34] oh, ok [04:34] fabbione: any chance of getting it into launchpad? [04:34] dilinger: basically the orig.tar.gz is a 2.6.10 + a big fat patch [04:34] lamont: no. [04:34] because the kernel is in bk [04:34] Kamion : my main concern is toward default kernel conf. It's rather bad last time I checked... [04:34] also.. for the stable release i would like to start using the -as tree [04:35] instead of plain vanilla [04:35] taht's definitely a good idea imho [04:35] that will reduce the workload for the team [04:35] (well almost all the team) [04:35] heh [04:35] dilinger: is your archive shared now? [04:35] not yours [04:35] -as is dilinger's? [04:35] fabbione: not yet, i can do that, though [04:35] Mithrandir: yes ;) [04:36] dilinger++ :) [04:36] dilinger: would it be possible to start branching out of your archive? === T-Bone read -ac instead of -as, nevermind [04:36] if so please coordinate everything with the new team leaders ;) [04:37] at least it will be a good solution to start with [04:37] fabbione: well, it's just an arch repo w/ patches; i'm unable to keep a full kernel tree in arch. so, a branch would just contain patch files on top of whatever i have. it's certainly doable; i'm just not sure it makes sense [04:37] dilinger: ok [04:37] we can figure the best way to use the archive [04:38] next in the TODO list is BTS cleanup [04:38] we have plenty of bug reports in NEEDINFO state [04:38] and no info [04:38] i suggest that the bug trackers will send a general message to all the bugs. [04:38] i think we can drop most of the 2.6.8 ones cant we? [04:38] and ask people to test and report [04:39] no info in 2 weeks -> CLOSE or kill the bug [04:39] fabbione: good plan [04:39] it's getting impossible to track all of them otherwsie [04:39] people can still reopen the bugs if they figure out that is not fixed [04:40] last item in the TODO is to write the full TODO and that will be my task [04:40] exactly [04:40] if no one gets to it this week, I can go on an email spree next week [04:40] fabbione: ill send you my list [04:40] lamont: you mean for the BTS? [04:41] yes [04:41] zul: no. i will add a wiki page and you will add your stuff there [04:41] lamont: sounds a good plan [04:41] fabbione: yeah that works [04:41] fabbione: feel free to so note on the todolist page.. :) [04:41] we need to centralize the doc and other stuff on the wiki [04:41] lamont: ok ;) === lamont makes a note to buy fabbione a beer [04:41] eheh [04:42] last item in the agenda: [04:42] AOB [04:42] i have one [04:42] AOB? [04:42] dilinger, zul: the config tool? [04:42] Any other business? [04:42] fabbione: dilinger is working on it [04:42] doh [04:42] i havent had a chance to work on it yet [04:42] (it's a brand of tampons) [04:43] i mean.. it's NOT [04:43] dilinger: status? === dilinger doesn't know how to make tampons [04:43] i started it yesterday, but got caught up doing other stuff [04:43] dilinger: as long as you know how to make kernels, that's fine [04:43] but you know how to use them ;) [04:43] ok [04:43] ok thats a bit off topic :) [04:44] zul: sorry... [04:44] does anybody have any other comment or topic or question? [04:44] heh [04:44] fabbione: any automatic builds in the pipe? [04:44] i'll resume work on it today, after i finish up beating some hardware into submission [04:44] so the temp leaders is me and t-bone correct? [04:44] zul: and me [04:44] makx: not yet.. but i have been thinging about it several time. [04:44] makx: automatic builds? [04:44] and lamont [04:45] that should be easy enough to do [04:45] mailing list? ;) [04:45] T-Bone: ubuntu-devel until we get kicked out [04:45] makx: would you like to write some code to do it? [04:45] makx: would be cool to // that with debian kernel testing === mako waves [04:45] mako: you're either way early, or way late. :-) [04:45] fabbione: we need machines that have remote power switches [04:45] makx: you want to have full remote testing and stuff as well? [04:46] makx: you said building, or booting? [04:46] said building, meant both. [04:46] no we have nothing like that atm. [04:46] fair chunk of booting can be done with xen for at least one arch... [04:46] lamont: early i hope :) [04:46] heh [04:47] i think we will land on hoary+1 before we can have such infrastructure working [04:47] at least in a central location [04:47] fabbione: certainly not hoary [04:47] we can work at least on daily build [04:47] well, almost certainly [04:47] building should be doable for hoary, certainly [04:47] yes that's a good starter [04:47] daily builds should be easy enough to set up [04:48] makx: would you like to work on that? i am sure lamont can help you setting up the stuff in the dc [04:48] given the necessary stuff, we could put the daily builds in the dc without much pain [04:48] yes but we need daily builds out of an archive [04:48] fabbione: we should look at how osdl handles that [04:48] like an arch repo or something [04:48] Mithrandir : daily builds check that a kernel builds, which rather meaningless... [04:48] T-Bone: not really [04:48] T-Bone: not always... [04:48] it gives you an idea that the kernel at least can build [04:49] and said kernels would be available for people to download and test === OddAbe19 [~OddAbe19@pcp02542642pcs.lncstr01.pa.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [04:49] and that's how i released kernels for 4 arches in the last period [04:49] what lamont says. [04:49] ok [04:49] so everybody has already his fair amount of work and tasks [04:49] anything else? === T-Bone lags like hell [04:50] 3 [04:50] 2 [04:50] 1 [04:50] ok [04:50] lamont, fabbione: i can build tons of building kernel that will utterly fail on some archs we know about [04:50] meeting is finished [04:50] anyway... [04:50] T-Bone: that's why we test them [04:50] (just just the ones you build, mind you... :-) [04:50] T-Bone, zul, lamont: i would like to talk with you 3 sometimes today [04:51] perhaps after the CC meeting [04:51] after CC would be good for me - [04:51] lamont : remind me to kick you next time we meet ;) [04:51] T-Bone: saying that "they can fail while still building" doesn't imply that building them to test they build is useless [04:51] heh [04:51] fabbione: yep ill be here i have an ultra-sound later this afternoon though [04:51] ok perfect [04:51] fabbione not before late today i think [04:51] thanks everybody [04:51] Mithrandir: building them to test that they build and make the bits available for testing to people who have the hardware, but not the ability/space/whatever to build their own [04:51] T-Bone: than i will start to talk to lamont and zul [04:51] lamont: ack [04:51] and you will sync with them [04:52] ok [04:52] that was a quick meeting :) [04:52] let's take 8 minutes break before the CC meeting [04:52] zul: i hate long meetings ;) [04:52] fabbione: dont we all [04:52] and i said i wanted to be quick === makx [~max@baikonur.stro.at] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] [04:52] zul: not managers ;) [04:52] fabbione: at least T-Bone is reasonably TZ-proximate to you [04:53] fabbione : when do you plan to talk to us? [04:53] they need to explain who they spend their time [04:53] fabbione: im no freaking manager...oh wait [04:53] T-Bone: after the CC meeting [04:53] i'll have a much better connection in 1h30 [04:53] fabbione: I'm going to disappear for a short while, when lamont_r shows up, I'm back... [04:53] T-Bone: i don't think it will last less than that [04:53] ok [04:54] given most past cc's I think I'll be back before the end of the meeting [04:54] ehhe [04:54] fabbione : ok then. TCP over HTTP plain sucks, especially when the proxy is overloaded... === lamont tsks at t-bone [04:54] lamont : huh? ;) [04:54] fabbione: anything else before I flee? [04:55] T-Bone: if they wanted you to have TCP, they'd have enabled it... :)) [04:55] lamont : not like i had a choice, mind you ;) [04:55] lamont : heh. I have a regular work you know. Not supposed to be hanging around right now ;) [04:56] lamont: nope [04:56] ok. back with better bandwidth in a little bit the [04:56] n === T-Bone is about to leave as well... === amu [~amu@amu.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [04:59] Kamion: around? [04:59]