[12:06] <thully> Well, I've been experimenting - and I now see why netapplet is "not ready for prime time" - it crashed when I resumed from suspend and always shows my wi-fi signal as 0%.. works OK though
[12:06] <jdub> seb128: yeah, noticed -> been pinging fabbione :)
[12:06] <seb128> ;)
[12:07] <jdub> d'oh, and he just uploaded a kernel
[12:08] <thully> seb128: I saw your somment on my suggestion wrt multisession support in nautilus, and I looked at the upstream report - that's a lame excuse for not having multisession support
[12:08] <tseng> jdub: thats a .11, i dont think it will be the "default" for a bit
[12:08] <jdub> ah, yeah, good point ;)
[12:09] <tseng> needs l-r-m l-m and all that
[12:09] <seb128> thully: feel free to argue upstream, I'm not going to fork ncb
[12:09] <thully> "CDs are cheap" - yes, but writing a whole new CD each time you want to add a 2MB file - that's plain stupid
[12:10] <jdub> thully: got a patch?
[12:10] <thully> no - I'm not much of a programmer, unfortunately
[12:11] <thully> anyone know if any type of more advanced CD burning will be in hoary/main, or if this is being pushed to hoary+1
[12:11] <tseng> thully: its feature freeze and coaster or similar still arent in
[12:11] <tseng> id say that pushes to +1
[12:12] <tseng> coaster might make universe for hoary with some luck
[12:12] <sivang> thully: if we do it all in one time for hoary, what would be left to do afterwards? ;-))
[12:12] <jdub> seb128: patch works against current kernel, may as well upload it now :)
[12:12] <seb128> rock
[12:13] <seb128> thully: ncb rocks
[12:14] <thully> well, it doesn't have audio CD or multisession support currently... 
[12:15] <seb128> thully: audio CD is an issue, I'm waiting to get that from rhythmbox :)
[12:15] <seb128> thully: but multisession ...
[12:15] <jdub> once it has multisession support, it should probably do that by default
[12:16] <thully> Also, on the Hoary features front: I know ifplugd, netapplet, ... have been pushed to +1 , but have any simpler solutions been considered (like having an option for DHCP to load on bootup but not hold up the system boot
[12:17] <seb128> jdub: multisession has been closed as wontfix by hadess
[12:18] <jdub> seb128: for reasons other than "i'm not going to do it"?
 seb128: I saw your somment on my suggestion wrt multisession support in nautilus, and I looked at the upstream report - that's a lame excuse for not having multisession support
[12:19] <seb128> that's the reason :p
[12:19] <seb128> ups
 "CDs are cheap"
[12:19] <seb128> let me find the bug
[12:20] <seb128> jdub: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=120384
[12:20] <thom> that sounds like hadess... typical lazy frenchie ;-)
[12:20] <seb128> ------- Additional Comment #2 From Bastien Nocera  2004-05-11 12:05 -------
[12:20] <seb128> Multisession support is not being considered (given the price of a blank CD,
[12:20] <seb128> these days...).
[12:21] <HrdwrBoB> that said, CD-RW's are also cheap
[12:21] <thully> but - you have to rewrite the whole thing even if you want to add a 2MB file... not ideal by any means
[12:21] <HrdwrBoB> true
[12:22] <thom> seb128: there's nothing wrong with firefox, you just need to learn how to use cursor keys
[12:22] <seb128> thom: teach me :)
[12:23] <seb128> thully: take an another disc to copy the 2M file :)
[12:23] <thom> well, you see those two arrow keys on your keyboard? one is a left arrow, and that makes your cursor go left. the other is a right arrow, and that makes your cursor go right
[12:23] <thom> it's pretty easy really
[12:24] <dredg> feh, use a usb pen drive for the 2M file :)
[12:24] <thom> or the internet, there's a shocking thought
[12:24] <dredg> noooo. too new fangled. it'll never catch on
[12:24] <sivang> thully: so that randomly relocating cursor thing is a feature ? :)
[12:25] <dredg> next you'll be suggesting tha some company has come up with a way of 'searching' the internet
[12:25] <HrdwrBoB> this internet thingy is only for geeks
[12:25] <thully> sivang:?
[12:25] <sivang> thully: opps sorry
[12:25] <sivang> thully: that was for thom 
[12:25] <thom> sivang: geez, we need to put on "how to use your cursor" classes, don't we
[12:25] <jdub> seb128: (i think that's pretty silly, really)
[12:26] <thom> it works fine for me
[12:26] <seb128> jdub: to be honest, me too :)
[12:26] <fabbione> re
[12:26] <sivang> thom: maybe :) put on a wiki page , I swear to read it before I whine again
[12:26] <thom> unless i have like a two point font, in which case i can't tell anyway
[12:27] <seb128> (but I don't record a lot of CDs out of plain ISOs so I just ignore it for the moment)
[12:27] <thom> (and yes, it's a known bug; problem with pango)
[12:27] <sivang> thom: thing is, I happily move the cursor through a text line, and it automatically jumps to it's end ..no way to mark that text unless using the mouse
[12:27] <thom> so in the end, IZ GTK BOOG anyway
[12:27] <seb128> PANGO is not GTK
[12:27] <jdub> thom: is .fr boog
[12:27] <fabbione> elmo: ping?
[12:27] <thully> As for multisession - telling people to use the internet or a USB key wouldn't be ideal if they were burning things intended for a non-internet linked machine and didn't have a USB key..)
[12:27] <seb128> jdub: that's an evil comment
[12:27] <thom> it's all the same thing
[12:27] <elmo> fabbione: ?
[12:28] <sivang> jdub: hehehe
[12:28] <jdub> fabbione: duderino, want inotify 0.19? :)
[12:28] <fabbione> elmo: i received some NEW messages on some sparc packages, is that correct? even for the kernel?
[12:28] <fabbione> jdub: you are talkign with the wrong person :-)
[12:28] <thully> or the machine could have a slow connection, or you could be adding winmodem drivers to the CD for use on a fresh Linux install :)
[12:28] <fabbione> elmo: and if you can bless 2.6.11 it would be nice
[12:28] <jdub> fabbione: i am? :)
[12:28] <elmo> fabbione: yes
[12:29] <elmo> and I did 2.6.11 already
[12:29] <fabbione> jdub: yes.. no more 2.6.10 for me
[12:29] <elmo> fabbione: NEW works by package name, the sparc kernel udebs have a unique name.. -> NEW
[12:29] <fabbione> elmo: thanks :-) you rock
[12:29] <fabbione> hmm strange.. i didn't get the email on other versions
[12:29] <fabbione> just the normal ACCEPT
[12:30] <dholbach> i'm off to bed before my head is going to explode
[12:30] <ogra> guys, have you read this highly technical article about sabdfl ? http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=139&art_id=vn20050209102227763C337661
[12:31] <ogra> *g*
[12:31] <jdub> hahahaha
[12:31] <dredg> highly insightful piece
[12:31] <dredg> yes, i can really see the point
[12:32] <ogra> lol
[12:32] <jdub> oh man, i have to fix my latest UBU now
[12:33] <dredg> hmm, perhaps i should follow their advice... i mean, i'm not a billionaire or anything but still, you gotta have goals
[12:34] <sivang> interesting
[12:34] <sivang> :)
[12:34] <thully> I wondered.. is there any way ifup could be modified not to stall the entire system on boot trying to get a net address w/DHCP?
[12:35] <thully> meaning, modified in Ubuntu
[12:35] <dholbach> *wave*
[12:36] <dredg> night dholbach 
[12:36] <dholbach> bye dredg
[12:36] <thully> My particular situation is: I have a wireless card, and want to be online when my system sees an access point, but don't want DHCP stalling the boot process when I'm not at an access point - could something be done about this in hoary?
[12:37] <fabbione> no
[12:37] <fabbione> you can't
[12:37] <fabbione> dhcp needs to timeout nicely
[12:37] <thully> it can't run in the background?
[12:38] <fabbione> no
[12:38] <fabbione> that would be worst 
[12:38] <fabbione> for example if you have services that needs network
[12:38] <fabbione> and don't recongnize when new ifaces are up
[12:38] <fabbione> than you are doomed
[12:38] <thully> as this would be nice for people who have a network interface that is used a lot, but not 100% of the time
[12:39] <dredg> fabbione: well, would it be possible to boot with e.g. network=off? 
[12:39] <thully> The ideal solution would be something like ifplugd/waproamd, but as to my knowledge this has been pushed to hoary+1
[12:40] <thully> One thing that may be useful - start/stop wi-fi and start/stop ethernet buttons in the system tray for configured interfaces
[12:43] <jdub> daniels: ping
[12:47] <mdz> lamont: are we cloop-build-capable yet?
[12:51] <thully> Would it be feasible to include network start/stop options on one of the GNOME menus/system tray in Hoary? 
[12:52] <seb128> there is the network-admin tool for that
[12:53] <thully> yes - but opening it, entering the password, clicking on the interface, and pushing activate just to connect to a wi-fi hotspot hardly seems intuitive..
[12:54] <tritium> In hoary, perhaps hdparm should start later so that cdrom modules can load before hdparm tries to set dma.
[12:54] <Menaherann> hello guys.. i have a problem with my laptop, and the guys tahat i've talked to in the regular ubuntu channel don't have a clue on how to help me....
[12:55] <tritium> Menaherann, you haven't asked.
[12:55] <Menaherann> since you guys are"the laptop division"
[12:55] <Menaherann> ok.... here it is:
[12:55] <Menaherann> i can't pass the login screen
[12:56] <Menaherann> once i input username/pasword the computer deosn 't load anything....
[12:56] <Menaherann> thanks to other user's experiments i know now that the os is not frozen, since i can log in the console
[12:57] <Menaherann> but the problem is with the GUI
[12:57] <zul> hey
[12:57] <Menaherann> gnome is giving my shit!
[12:57] <zul> oka
[12:57] <zul> okay even
[12:57] <Menaherann> note rthat i;m a newbie and don';t know what's going on....
[12:57] <Menaherann> sorry for that shameful typing....
[12:57] <tseng> do you get a splash screen at all?
[12:58] <Menaherann> thye yellow -like ubuntu screen that ask me for username/password?
[12:58] <tseng> no.
[12:58] <Menaherann> well that's the last thing i se with color
[12:59] <tseng> whats the next thing you see?
[12:59] <Menaherann> after i put everithing what i get is ablack screen
[12:59] <jdub> Menaherann: this would be better discussed in #ubuntu
[12:59] <Menaherann> and the arrow of my mouse.
[12:59] <jdub> Menaherann: #ubuntu-devel is for developer discussion
[12:59] <tseng> clearly
[12:59] <Menaherann> oh...
[12:59] <Menaherann> ok.... didin;'t know that
[12:59] <tseng> jdub: he tried to lead on he had a specific laptop question.
[01:00] <tseng> oh well.
[01:00] <Menaherann> [sigh]  so back to the ubuntu channel?
[01:01] <tseng> or the forums, wiki, other numerous forms of user support
[01:01] <Menaherann> all right.
[01:01] <tseng> thanks, good luck
[01:01] <Menaherann> thanks though..
[01:02] <seb128> usually GNOME not loading is due to the loopback interface not working correctly
[01:02] <thully> yes - I've had some problems with that before.. currently the live CD does that if you have a wi-fi card but aren't in range of a network
[01:05] <tseng> ogra: ping
[01:33] <ogra> tseng: pong 
[01:34] <tseng> ogra: you answered my own question before i even asked it
[01:34] <tseng> ogra: good work.
[01:34] <tseng> (wanted to add things to the motu teams)
[01:34] <ogra> hmm
[01:35] <ogra> ah, yeah, go n :)
[01:35] <ogra> s/n/on/
[01:56] <lamont> mdz: all 4 architectures have current cloops
[02:01] <sladen> jdub: http://lwn.net/Articles/122943/ you might want to reply to the ''if only they supported sparc'' comment
[02:02] <mdz> lamont: great, thanks
[02:02] <jdub> Kamion: around?
[02:03] <jdub> sladen: thanks :)
[02:03] <lamont> mdz: let me know when there's an ia64 image, and I'll test it
[02:04] <mdz> lamont: still no ubuntu-live yet, right?
[02:05] <lamont> mdz: ubuntu-live is in it
[02:05] <lamont> x4
[02:05] <mdz> ah, ok
[02:05] <mdz> it seems to be missing its depends, though
[02:05] <mdz> due to my mistake
[02:05] <tseng> jdub: any ideas on the industrial cursor bug?
[02:05] <lamont> Setting up ubuntu-live (0.28) ...
[02:05] <lamont> mdz: bummer
[02:05] <tseng> jdub: i cant think of a clean way to wedge that stuff back in =/
[02:05] <jdub> mdz: why is libgnome2-perl in supported seed?
[02:06] <mdz> lamont: does this mean we're missing language-support-en?
[02:06] <jdub> tseng: yeah, i'm dealing with it upstream
[02:06] <tseng> maybe a seperate pack for industrial icon theme
[02:06] <mdz> jdub: dunno, is it new?
[02:06] <tseng> jdub: ah, cheers
[02:06] <lamont> mdz: the string 'language-' does not appear in the output
[02:06] <mdz> mvo and I talked about it, but I don't remember adding it
[02:06] <lamont> but we do still generate english locales
[02:06] <mdz> lamont: ubuntu-meta 0.29 uploaded
[02:06] <jdub> mdz: doesn't appear to be in warty
[02:07] <lamont> gah - and in 56 minutes, we can churn another livecd rootfs
[02:07] <jdub> mdz: it was added for the debconf gnome frontend, which i'm writing a mail about now
[02:07] <mdz> lamont: new casper doesn't seem to be built yet anyway
[02:07] <jdub> mdz: (saying no)
[02:08] <mdz> jdub: let's talk about that
[02:08] <mdz> I know you don't like the UI
[02:08] <jdub> mdz: (saying let's discuss it, my opinion is no)
[02:08] <mdz> but the current UI is "WTF the installation stalled with no feedback"
[02:08] <jdub> or using the vte terminal
[02:08] <mdz> the terminal window is hidden by default now
[02:08] <mdz> which is nice
[02:09] <jdub> yeah, and mvo can't find a way to pop it up when input is required
[02:09] <mdz> it's likely to be impossible
[02:09] <mdz> without some new communication channel
[02:09] <jdub> so i'm happier with showing vte and fixing this properly in hoary+1
[02:10] <jdub> instead of adding a whole chunk of stuff to main, and in particular, the desktop
[02:10] <jdub> 1.8MB packed, 6.3MB unpacked
[02:11] <mdz> that's nothing, space-wise
[02:11] <mdz> though it is a chunk more packages to support
[02:11] <jdub> yes
[02:11] <jdub> that is what i am mostly worried about
[02:11] <mdz> wel,l it would be if it weren't already in supported
[02:12] <jdub> only as an explicit seed addition
[02:12] <jdub> in hoary
[02:15] <sladen> LD_PRELOAD and grep for read() on fd==0  && raise ?
[02:16] <jdub> always up for a nasty hack, sladen ;-)
[02:16] <tseng> ew, LD_PRELOAD
[02:18] <sladen> btw, is  sulogin  failing with  root:!:...   a known issue (the result of  passwd -l  which is what's becoming recommended to users to undo their root passwd damage) ?
[02:49] <restrex> https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=6433
[02:56] <lamont> mdz: we have casper love yet?
[02:56] <mdz> lamont: yep
[02:56] <mdz> lamont: cloop builds in 6 minutes?
[02:56] <tseng> restrex: all bugs go through mdz and he assigns them properly
[02:56] <tseng> restrex: no need to spam them here.
[02:57] <lamont> about 6-7 min more for ubuntu-meta love
[02:57] <restrex> tseng It's realley a but man
[02:57] <tseng> there are plenty of real bugs.
[02:57] <restrex> well
[02:57] <tseng> they will be fixed in order of severity
[02:57] <tseng> just be patient please :)
[02:57] <restrex> it's on a trivial bug...
[02:57] <mdz> restrex: you only filed that bug an _hour_ ago
[02:57] <restrex> yea >P
[02:58] <HrdwrBoB> restrex: it's also a duplicate
[02:58] <lamont> restrex: people actually use icons on the desktop??? :-)
[02:59] <lamont> HrdwrBoB: meaning it's actually more than an hour old, eh?
[02:59] <restrex> jeje the icon is an access to /media
[02:59] <mdz> HrdwrBoB: please mark it as such, if you would
[02:59] <HrdwrBoB> mdz: doing so
[02:59] <sladen> restrex: related to that bug.  If you insert a drive of photos and then click 'Cancel' to the import question, the icon is not displayed either
[03:00] <restrex> sladen I haven't any drive of photos, so I don't know
[03:01] <lamont> in any case, it belongs in #ubuntu
[03:01] <sladen> lamont: it's okay.  he posted it there *aswell* :)
[03:01] <restrex> !!
[03:01] <restrex> so in #ubuntu nobody knows that
[03:02] <restrex> :)
[03:02] <tseng> restrex: as a tip for the future, please carefully search bugzilla before filing bugs.
[03:02] <lamont> restrex: many developers are in #ubuntu as well
[03:02] <restrex> lamont
[03:02] <lamont> #ubuntu-devel is the place to discuss your code change that will fix the problem
[03:02] <restrex> I-ve been all the day questionung that thing
[03:02] <restrex> and nobody gave me an answer
[03:02] <restrex> really
[03:03] <HrdwrBoB> it's a dupe of 4066
[03:03] <lamont> restrex: and the bug that it's a duplicate of has been in the bts for far more than a day...
[03:03] <HrdwrBoB> a day?
[03:04] <mdz> lamont: ubuntu-live ready to go?
[03:04] <restrex> lamont i don't understand your question :S
[03:04] <HrdwrBoB> 2005-01-03
[03:04] <HrdwrBoB> it's two months old, that said, it is annoying to find
[03:05] <mdz> bugzilla's search functionality is less than ideal
[03:05] <mdz> at any rate, the situation is resolved now, and we can all get back to ubuntu-devel matters :-)
[03:05] <lamont> mdz: launched
[03:05] <mdz> thanks
[03:05] <mdz> lamont: ping me when it's safe to start the CD builds
[03:06] <restrex> lamont I don-t understand your question...
[03:07] <mdz> restrex: he isn't asking you a question; the conversation has ended
[03:07] <lamont> zul or t-bone around?
[03:07] <marcin_ant> hi
[03:08] <marcin_ant> do you guys know why bitmap fonts - such as MiscFixed - are not available in font selector in gnome?
[03:12] <sladen> marcin_ant: the short answer is because they look ugly, don't scale, don't anti-alias and look even worse printed.
[03:13] <marcin_ant> sladen: sorry but it is really annoying that someone wants to decide what should I use
[03:13] <marcin_ant> sladen: misc fixed maybe is ugly
[03:13] <marcin_ant> sladen: but it is perfect font for coding/hacking
[03:13] <tritium> marcin_ant, bitmap fonts in general
[03:13] <marcin_ant> sladen: and this font is very fast
[03:14] <marcin_ant> sladen: while those blurry aliased and scaled fonts are pretty on desktop - but annoing when you want to read code
[03:15] <marcin_ant> marcin_ant: I had misc fixed for years in my xterm, aterm whatever
[03:15] <lamont> marcin_ant: so fire up a terminal specifying that font
[03:15] <marcin_ant> lamont: and?
[03:15] <marcin_ant> lamont: btw what do you mean terminal?
[03:16] <marcin_ant> lamont: I don't want this font on terminal
[03:16] <lamont> xterm, gnome-term, whatever
[03:16] <lamont> then whatever app.
[03:16] <marcin_ant> lamont: I want this font in eclipse
[03:16] <lamont> I think they all take -fn options, no?
[03:16] <tseng> this isnt an ubuntu specific issue afaict
[03:16] <sladen> marcin_ant: look in  /etc/fonts/local.conf  for the line that says  <!-- Uncomment below to enable bitmapped fonts -->
[03:16] <lamont> tseng: I really doubt that it is
[03:16] <lamont> it's most likely a gnome issue
[03:16] <tseng> yep.
[03:17] <tseng> gnome-font-sel, if you want to fight about it, see upstream
[03:17] <sladen> marcin_ant: and please file a FAQ on the wiki when you have it working
[03:17] <sladen> marcin_ant: (run  sudo fc-cache )
[03:18] <ogra> sudo dpkg-reconfigure fontconfig
[03:18] <marcin_ant> sladen: thank you very much
[03:18] <ogra> asks about bitmap usage
[03:18] <jdub> daniels: ping
[03:19] <marcin_ant> sladen: do I need to relogin to gnome session?
[03:20] <sladen> marcin_ant: I think the changes are dynamic, but I'm sure you'll find out when you try!   (and please follow this up on #ubuntu)
[03:20] <marcin_ant> sladen: ok - I'll try to restart my session
[03:31] <jdub> morning mjg59 
[03:32] <mjg59> Oh lord I have to sleep
[03:32] <mjg59> I've been fighting postscript for the past 5 hours
[03:32] <lamont>   ubuntu-live: Depends: language-support-en but it is not going to be installed
[03:32] <lamont> (ia64 only)
[03:33] <mdz> others still going?
[03:34] <lamont> yeah
[03:35] <lamont>   language-support-en: Depends: openoffice.org-hyphenation-en-gb but it is not going to be installed
[03:35] <lamont> well, that would explain it
[03:36] <lamont> are the language-support-* packages autogenerated, or manually, I wonder?
[03:38] <lamont> mdz: should that be [!ia64] , or should it be [i386 powerpc amd64]  ??
[03:39] <lamont>   * Automatic update to latest translation data.
[03:39] <lamont> well, that answers taht
[03:39] <lamont> oh pitti....
[03:40] <lamont> mdz: new livecd rootfs build going on ia64 with ubuntu-live dropped for now
[03:40] <lamont> and filing a bug for pitti
[03:42] <mdz> lamont: are the others finished?
[03:43] <lamont> no
[03:44] <mdz> the cloop builds seem to take longer than a test install from CD
[03:44] <mdz> I guess the actual cloop bit takes forever
[03:44] <lamont> i386 was doing the partimage things
[03:52] <lamont> mdz: i386 done, ppc and amd64 compressiong
[03:53] <lamont> amd64 done
[03:55] <thully> Hi - is the plan for Hoary to use kernel 2.6.10, or 2.6.11 when it comes out?  Just wondering- because there is some enhancements to mouse drivers in 2.6.11 I may be interested in...
[03:57] <mjg59> Almost certainly 2.6.10
[03:58] <lamont> 2.6.10
[03:58] <mjg59> If there's specific stuff in 2.6.11 you want, it might be possible to get it backported
[03:58] <lamont> all the good stuff has been backported, fwiw
[03:58] <lamont> for some definition of 'all'
[03:58] <lamont> the patch count with 2.6.11 drops from ~270 down to ~70
[03:59] <lamont> mandb: warning: /usr/share/man/man1/ckeygen.1.gz is a dangling symlink
[03:59] <lamont> mandb: warning: /usr/share/man/man1/conch.1.gz is a dangling symlink
[03:59] <lamont> mandb: warning: /usr/share/man/man1/tkconch.1.gz is a dangling symlink
[03:59] <lamont> mandb: warning: /usr/share/man/man1/btcompletedir.1.gz is a dangling symlink
[03:59] <lamont> tsktsk
[04:03] <thully> well - I was specifically talking about trackpoint support - I don't know if it'll be in 2.6.11 or not, but there was a thread on LKML about it
[04:03] <spiv> lamont: Three of those would be the python-twisted-conch package.
[04:04] <zul> thully:definently 2.6.10
[04:04] <lamont> spiv: bad python-twisted-conch
[04:04] <lamont> zul - evening
[04:04] <zul> lamont: heh how is it going?
[04:05] <lamont> insane as usual
[04:05] <mdz> lamont: ppc done yet?
[04:05] <zul> lamont: sounds exciting :)
[04:05] <lamont> mdz: barely
[04:05] <mdz> lamont: hmm?
[04:06] <lamont> well, 5 min ago
[04:06] <thully> although trackpoint scrolling can be done a total of 3 ways: 1)wheel emulation in X 2)tp-scroll daemon, which simulates a wheel mouse 3)trackpoint kernel patch, which I think is under discussion for 2.6.11
[04:06] <mdz> ok, kicking off cd builds
[04:06] <mdz> we can get ia64 later when it's done
[04:06] <lamont> mdz: thanks
[04:06] <lamont> it shouldn't be too much longer
[04:06] <lamont> zul: looking at the KernelTeam page - it needs some heading love.
[04:07] <zul> lamont: go right ahead
[04:09] <zul> lamont: you know most of the kernel bugs doesnt have any details of the users hardware
[04:13] <lamont> zul: yeah - makes it more fun... and gives you a good first question for the submitter... :-(
[04:13] <sladen> thully: it's still a problem that you have to scarifce one button.  the best I've seen is middle=scroll and enable chording to still get the middle button
[04:15] <thully> yes - if you use the other 2 solutions that isn't a problem - although I did see a couple postings on the X.org mailing list about something in CVS that lets you set a threshold to determine what's a click and what's a scroll
[04:16] <sladen> interesting, I wonder how that works in xpdf (middle button to scroll)... but as long as the 2d scrolling took over at that point, it would be fine.
[04:32] <mdz> zul: ogra's work should make that easier
[04:32] <zul> mdz: sweet!
[04:37] <lamont> mdz: ia64 would be making better time if it weren't for the gcc-3.4 build that's running on the same machine...
[04:51] <mdz> amd64 daily-live looks good
[04:56] <zul> night
[05:28] <robertj_> can someone take a lookt at #6390 and tell me if this is suggesting a course of action that will leave users without security updates by default if the install is done without the network connection active?
[05:29] <daniels> jdub: pong
[05:30] <robertj_> daniels: is that pong related to my question or am I just being self-absorbed ;)
[05:32] <jdub> daniels: got time for a phone call?
[05:32] <daniels> robertj_: i missed your question; i was responding to jdub's ping
[05:32] <daniels> jdub: sure, mobile on wiki
[05:33] <robertj_> daniels: ahh, basically if I'm reading #6390 the current suggestion is to not add security sources if no network connection is detected at install
[05:34] <wasabi> packaging question: Is there some magic formula to make a postinst script run a command only once for the invocation of dpkg.
[05:34] <wasabi> I have an update-* style script which doesn't need to be run 5 times for the 5 packages it's attached to. =/
[05:36] <robertj_> wasabi: i'm a total newb here, but based on the fact that passwd doesn't use something of that sort to run newaliases but apparently waits for some other script to call it, my guess is no
[05:42] <daniels> robertj_: i don't know; it's not my arena.  i think it was discussed in here the other day
[05:44] <bob2> wasabi: not yet
[05:44] <bob2> wasabi: scrollkeeper uses a horrible hack to do it, you could steal that if it's a huge deal
[05:44] <bob2> (but it's probably not horribly annoying enough to bother)
[05:45] <robertj_> scrollkeeper makes me thing...couldn't this be done in the background on first boot
[05:45] <robertj_> err think
[05:45] <bob2> if you send a patch to the bts, it could be considered
[05:45] <jdub> scrollkeeper needs to be replaced
[05:46] <bob2> even better
[05:46] <robertj_> jdub: but am I reading that bug correctly?
[05:46] <robertj_> #6390
[05:46] <jdub> if it says, "scrollkeeper is naff and should die", then probably
[05:47] <jdub> no that's not right
[05:47] <robertj_> jdub: no, I think it says that the plan is to not add security sources and not prompt to add them if no network is detected
[05:47] <jdub> we just wouldn't be installing the updates during base-config
[05:48] <jdub> well, yes, all network sources would be disabled if there were no network available
[05:48] <jdub> not just security
[05:48] <jdub> i don't think i agree with that, myself
[05:48] <robertj_> yeah, that's what I was getting at
[05:48] <mdz> robertj_: there is no way to install security updates without a network
[05:48] <mdz> there is nothing to be done about that
[05:49] <robertj_> mdz: why dont we just default on and then worry about patching apt to behave more intelligently for grumpy?
[05:49] <jdub> mdz: i think it's mostly that the network sources would not be enabled by default
[05:49] <jdub> mdz: not anything to do with security
[05:49] <jdub> mdz: this means that even if the user configures their network post-install, update-notifier won't work, etc.
[05:49] <robertj_> if synaptic is doing updates when you start it anyway, it should kick out the bad sources regardless
[05:50] <jdub> however, to fix it, we need to make handling inability to connect nicer in all the frontends
[05:50] <robertj_> oh, I thought it just timed out eventually and went on
[05:52] <mdz> robertj_: I don't follow
[05:53] <mdz> it does just time out and go on, but that's not terribly friendly, and it would be irresponsible not to report it as an error
[05:53] <jdub> mdz: example -> os x doesn't give a rats arse if you had a network connection during install or not, it will still handle doing updates nicely when you have a connection :-)
[05:53] <robertj_> mdz: yes, but it's not as bad as not doing security updates ever
[05:53] <mdz> jdub: how?
[05:53] <jdub> networkmanager will help a bit with this, but the apt configuration has to be network source aware
[05:54] <jdub> mdz: because it doesn't disable network sources if you don't have a network connection during install (to put it in the apt context)
[05:54] <mdz> robertj_: fortunately, no one is suggesting that
[05:54] <robertj_> mdz: that's what I got out of the bug report
[05:54] <mdz> honestly, the change I have suggested doesn't make any difference whatsoever on this point
[05:55] <mdz> currently, you get security updates if you answer 'yes' to the question
[05:55] <jdub> it's colin's summary, second last paragraph that we're talking about
[05:55] <mdz> you can't answer 'yes' to the question if you aren't connected to the Internet
[05:55] <mdz> ergo, you don't get security updates if you aren't connected to the Internet
[05:55] <jdub> no problems with the change you proposed at all
[05:55] <robertj_> mdz: which be a bad thing if you later get on the internet
[05:55] <mdz> all I'm talking about is smart defaults
[05:55] <jdub> see the second last paragraph for the point we're discussing
[05:55] <jdub> which is not a smart default
[05:56] <mdz> I wrote that
[05:56] <mdz> and I think it is
[05:56] <jdub> ok, so
[05:56] <jdub> scenario
[05:57] <jdub> i am installing ubuntu on a plane coming back from LWE
[05:57] <jdub> no network, so it doesn't bother asking to update, and it disables the network sources
[05:57] <daniels> yes, because everyone does that :P
[05:58] <jdub> two months later, after having used the laptop at home, at work, at wireless cafes, and in the sidecar of my butch step-sister's motorcycle while wardriving,
[05:58] <jdub> i realise that i haven't had any updates
[05:58] <mdz> ok
[05:58] <jdub> so i uncomment those lines (through the prefs dialogue, not vi), and update
[05:58] <mdz> now walk through exactly the same scenario with a Warty CD
[05:58] <mdz> and with array 4
[05:58] <mdz> and with my proposed changes
[05:58] <mdz> realize that the result is identical
[05:59] <jdub> i know
[05:59] <jdub> we're not talking about previous releases
[05:59] <jdub> we're talking about the plan described in that bug
[05:59] <mdz> so why are you guys talking about my proposal as if it makes any difference in this matter?
[05:59] <jdub> and one very specific clause
[05:59] <jdub> again, second last paragraph
[05:59] <jdub> let's not make that mistake again
[05:59] <robertj_> jdub: or more fun, later that night, you go back to the hotel and install sshd because you want to leave it on and sftp stuff from work the next morning. You go to work the next morning and you can't log in. 
[05:59] <mdz> the entirety of that bug report is included in "my proposed changes"
[06:00] <mdz> and everything that I said still stands
[06:00] <mdz> why am I not getting through?
[06:00] <jdub> because we are talking past each other
[06:00] <sladen> is this similar to the NTP thing;  it's an interface coming up that should enable enable the update-notifier 
[06:00] <jdub> In fact, I think that if we get it just right, we can skip the question
[06:00] <jdub> entirely, and if the network test fails, silently leave the network sources
[06:00] <jdub> disabled and continue.
[06:00] <mdz> I know what I wrote
[06:00] <jdub> everything up to the third comma we *totally agree with*
[06:01] <mdz> now you explain to me why you think that paragraph changes the behaviour of the system as a whole
[06:01] <mdz> because it doesn't
[06:01] <jdub> we are talking about the clause *after* the third comma
[06:01] <jdub> no, i'm not, and have said so numerous times now
[06:01] <robertj_> mdz: i don't know how it currently behaves so I don't know if its a change
[06:01] <jdub> totally agree with the proposal
[06:01] <jdub> fundamentally
[06:01] <jdub> it is the right thing to do
[06:01] <jdub> etc., etc. say it again
[06:01] <robertj_> mdz: but it should be enabled by default
[06:01] <jdub> except for the clause after the third comma in the second last paragraph
[06:01] <jdub> which is the entirety of what we've been discussion
[06:01] <mdz> ok
[06:01] <mdz> now
 now you explain to me why you think that paragraph changes the behaviour of the system as a whole
[06:02] <robertj_> because in that aformentioned usage scenario you can install sshd the next day and get your box rooted by a known esxploirt
[06:02] <mdz> that is true whether or not you include the clause that jdub is protesting
[06:02] <mdz> this is the crux of my proposal
[06:02] <jdub> i don't think it is
[06:02] <mdz> that there is no point in asking the question whatsoever
[06:02] <robertj_> mdz: not its not
[06:02] <jdub> dude
[06:02] <jdub> holy shit
[06:03] <jdub> YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ON THAT POINT
[06:03] <robertj_> we understand that
[06:03] <jdub> we are not even coming close to disagreeing with that
[06:03] <robertj_> but that security sources should be enabled no matter what
[06:03] <jdub> we are saying, quite clearly i think,
[06:03] <mdz> the problem with this is
[06:03] <jdub> that all the network sources should, ideally, be enabled by default whatever happens during installation
[06:03] <robertj_> if you change silently disabled to silently enabled by default
[06:03] <mdz> that you are arguing against something which would not change as a result of my proposal
[06:03] <jdub> that is the only thing we are talking about
[06:04] <mdz> then you are talking about something completely orthogonal to my proposal
[06:04] <jdub> yes, we are
[06:04] <mdz> because it has the same characteristics as the current method in that respect
[06:04] <robertj_> mdz: indeed!
[06:04] <jdub> that's right
[06:04] <mdz> then why do you keep saying that you disagree with the second-to-last paragraph?
[06:04] <mdz> because it is a no-op
[06:04] <jdub> we are only talking about the minor point after the third comma in the second last paragraph
[06:04] <robertj_> no-op?
[06:05] <mdz> this is ridiculous, I am going to call jdub on the phone and straighten this out
[06:05] <jdub> heh
[06:05] <jdub> cool
[06:05] <robertj_> basically our point is the whole thing is a moot point because security sources belong no matter what
[06:06] <robertj_> no need to ask a question, run any tests, or whatnot, just add the sources and let update-notifier do its job on the first boot
[06:15] <robertj_> things getting clear?
[06:23] <mdz> ok
[06:23] <mdz> I think so
[06:23] <mdz> jdub: that's not the same thing :-)
[06:24] <mdz> here is the difference between what I am talking about and what you guys are talking about
[06:24] <mdz> I am talking about fixing the bug that installation takes an inappropriate length of time if there are network updates available
[06:24] <mdz> and you guys are talking about a feature whereby the network sources could be enabled unconditionally and the frontends would behave intelligently
[06:25] <jdub> oh man
[06:25] <jdub> this is so reasonable
[06:25] <jdub> ugly, but reasonable
[06:25] <mdz> cable
[06:25] <jdub> http://people.ubuntu.com/~jdub/screenshots/synaptic-without-internet.png
[06:26] <mdz> ok, I have clicked reload in synaptic
[06:26] <mdz> and it is showing me a progress bar with no activity
[06:26] <mdz> it will do this for the next 60 seconds or so, with no feedback whatsoever
[06:26] <jdub> yeah
[06:26] <mdz> this is so not reasonable
[06:26] <tritium> Treenaks, I like it too.
[06:26] <jdub> mine happened nice and quick (no default route)
[06:26] <lamont> mdz: ia64 is done
[06:26] <robertj_> mdz: err, could that be fixed?
[06:27] <mdz> lamont: I uploaded a new casper, so I'll roll a full set of CDs including ia64 when it's built
[06:27] <robertj_> I mean, couldn't the timeout be like, 5 seconds?
[06:27] <mdz> robertj_: no, it couldn't
[06:27] <lamont> mdz: cool - holler when
[06:27] <mdz> making the system less robust is not a reasonable tradeoff
[06:27] <mdz> hey, the progress bar moved
[06:27] <mdz> now it's on 2 of 10
[06:27] <mdz> and will spend another 60 seconds timing out
[06:27] <robertj_> ahh
[06:28] <mdz> look, I completely agree with you guys that it would be uber cool to enable the network sources all the time
[06:28] <mdz> but it's something that would build on top of my proposal as an incremental improvement
[06:28] <jdub> not happy with synaptic's handling?
[06:29] <mdz> but I don't think that it should stop us from implementing my proposal, _including_ disabling the network sources by default, because my proposal is itself an incremental improvement on what we have today
[06:29] <jdub> tritium: i855crt script, which changes the icon and stuff. pretty cute.
[06:29] <mdz> and it doesn't stop us from making it better later, if we can fix the remaining issues
[06:29] <tritium> jdub, ah, cool
[06:29] <jdub> mdz: we were not suggesting, at any stage, that it stop us from implementing your proposal :)
[06:29] <mdz> I don't think we can enable the network sources unconditionally until we fix the UI problems that would cause
[06:29] <mdz> jdub: ALL OF IT :-)
[06:29] <jdub> ok, agree
[06:29] <jdub> yes, even the orthogonal bits ;)
[06:29] <mdz> including the last clause of the penultimate paragraph
[06:31] <mdz> wonderful :-)
[06:31] <mdz> jdub: I also take issue with the fact that the Reload button gives no indication whatsoever that it is something which requires Internet access
[06:31] <mdz> in fact it doesn't look like what it does at all
[06:32] <jdub> it should be a picture of a bum with a fist coming out of it
[06:33] <robertj_> How difficult an issue would it be patch synaptic to check for internet access and allow it to skip all http/ftp repos?
[06:33] <mdz> robertj_: it would be a feature, and we are in feature freeze
[06:34] <mdz> setting aside the issues with determining whether we have internet access or not
[06:35] <robertj_> mdz: I thought it was more of a slush at this point ;)
[06:35] <mdz> it is a freeze with well-defined exceptions
[06:35] <mdz> it is the point where, though we continue to dream up new ideas for features to implement, we stop adding to the list
[06:35] <mdz> (the Hoary list)
[06:36] <robertj_> yeah
[06:36] <robertj_> understood, but to me this seems like a security deal
[06:36] <mdz> we have survived the past 10 years with this behaviour, and we can survive another 6 months I think
[06:36] <daniels> mdz: is ddcprobe-on-amd64 still viable for hoary?
[06:36] <daniels> mdz: (obviously post-usplash)
[06:36] <robertj_> at the very least a warning "If you continue to install without network access your machine will not receive security updates until you do the following: "
[06:37] <mdz> daniels: makes me nervous
[06:37] <mdz> robertj_: sure, a paragraph in the installation guide would be good
[06:37] <robertj_> mdz: noone reads those things though
[06:37] <mdz> no one reads dialogs in the installer either. point?
[06:37] <mdz> if there is only one button at the bottom, "OK", it doesn't get read
[06:38] <robertj_> well maybe keeping the question isn't such a horrible thing then
[06:38] <daniels> mdz: mmm.  if we do it under x86emu, we gain the advantage of rolling it into vbetool, and we gain ddc-on-amd64, because lacking it sucks.
[06:38] <daniels> mdz: i was hoping to do it last week, but unfortunately delays with bits for my amd64 and then ubuntu13 threw that right out, and now usplash ...
[06:39] <mdz> daniels: it would invalidate all the X autoconfig testing we have done on amd64
[06:39] <mdz> would it not?
[06:40] <mdz> jdub: I just remembered another problem which would need to be fixed
[06:40] <mdz> jdub: if you have never been connected in the first place, you don't have copies of the Packages files at all
[06:40] <sladen> daniels: setup.S records the DDC and edid data whilst in 16-bit code, no idea where it dumps them
[06:40] <mdz> and apt-get etc. will print errors every time they start up
[06:40] <sladen> daniels: s/setup.S/video.S/
[06:40] <jdub> mdz: that's a good excuse to bail out ;)
[06:41] <mdz> jdub: no it isn't; they can still install things from CD
[06:41] <jdub> true
[06:41] <daniels> mdz: not really, since there's no arch-specific code in there, apart from stubbing all the functions
[06:41] <jdub> those are stupid errors anyway ;)
[06:41] <mdz> maybe, but they're there
[06:41] <daniels> mdz: whether not ddc succeeds or fails on amd64 doesn't impact the autoconfig testing, and I think it would be a massive win to have it available
[06:41] <daniels> sladen: i take it this is isolinux?
[06:41] <mdz> and my whole point is that there are several issues, including ones we haven't even thought about yet, which would need to be addressed in order to enable them unconditionally
[06:41] <daniels> or syslinux
[06:41] <mdz> daniels: what if it hangs the system?
[06:42] <daniels> mdz: then we're fucked, to borrow some popular vernacular
[06:42] <daniels> mdz: in that case, the vesa driver and probably the vga driver would be unusable on that machine
[06:43] <jdub> NOOOOOOOO!
[06:43] <mdz> jdub: what's your opinion on amd64 DDC?
[06:43] <daniels> mdz: and I believe the Windows installer uses VESA these days
[06:43] <sladen> daniels: kernel, arch/i386/boot/video.S
[06:43] <daniels> so I doubt that any cards are screwed like that with VESA ;) it's only really VESA POST that sucks, and that's because they don't expect you to ever call it
[06:43] <mdz> daniels: I could have given you an account on the test box here months ago if you wanted to work on this
[06:43] <daniels> sladen: hm, cool; i'll check it out, thanks
[06:43] <daniels> mdz: mm
[06:44] <jdub> mdz: i'd defer to you and daniels on this one, anyway
[06:44] <mdz> jdub: coward
[06:44] <jdub> i can say no if it makes you feel comfortable
[06:44] <daniels> i think it would be well wikkid, but it's not a showstopper
[06:44] <mdz> I think so too
[06:44] <daniels> it seems that most of the mum-and-dad pcs are still i386 anyway, so asking that question on amd64 isn't too tragic
[06:45] <mdz> and I would have been all over it a month ago
[06:45] <daniels> by the time hoary+1 rolls around, we'll totally need it, though
[06:45] <mdz> but why bring this up now?
[06:45] <jdub> because he just got an amd64 ;)
[06:46] <daniels> mdz: because I now have a machine I can do this on, and I'm not nearly as busy with general xorg stuff as I was beforehand
[06:46] <mdz> I think usplash is about a billion times more important
[06:47] <mdz> and that by the time you're done with usplash, it will be even more too-late for this than it is now
[06:47] <daniels> fair call
[06:47] <daniels> hoary+1 it is
[06:47] <robertj_> hehe, I need to get off my butt and file bugs for my laptops, both which refuse to sleep properly
[06:47] <daniels> with our BATSHIT INSANE CRAZY reconfiguration structure
[06:48] <robertj_> daniels: grumpy groundhog is still the name right?
[06:48] <daniels> (terms and conditions: reconfiguration structure may not be batshit insane crazy)
[06:48] <sladen> so, regarding the problem of needing DDC/EDID to decide on the vesa mode to pass to the kernel... ;-)
[06:48] <mdz> daniels: if someone else could work on it while you work on usplash...
[06:48] <mdz> robertj_: no, it isn't
[06:49] <mdz> but its true name shall not be spoken
[06:49] <daniels> mdz: mjg59's capable of doing so
[06:49] <jdub> robertj_: it's officially known as 'hoary+1'
[06:49] <daniels> sladen: hm.  well, I'll check it out this weekend :)
[06:49] <jdub> until mdz can come to terms with the real name
[06:49] <jdub> and finally let me announce it
[06:49] <Rotund> GRAPE APE
[06:49] <sladen> MingingMunter
[06:50] <sladen> collectively know as a Herd
[06:50] <mdz> jdub: that, or I find a way to install a content-mangling proxy on all of sabdfl's computers
[06:50] <jdub> haha
[06:50] <mdz> so that we can use a less awful name
[06:50] <robertj_> jdub: I kinda like grumpy, but it's different, it's not as image invoking as the previous ones
[06:51] <daniels> sladen: so when people install it, they're getting munted?
[06:51] <robertj_> how about Dandy Dolphin?
[06:51] <jdub> robertj_: yeah, and still dispositive (which we want to get away from)
[06:51] <sladen> daniels: maybe they'll get screwed... :)
[06:52] <mdz> daniels: remind me, why can't we just assume that some low-res vesa mode will just work?
[06:52] <mdz> jdub: you should check out the latest live CD with ejection love
[06:52] <robertj_> daniels: cus then you can't get the pretty modes for usplash ;)
[06:53] <daniels> mdz: we *should* be able to, but I want to see if we can first (i.e. get some wider testing)
[06:55] <lamont> robertj_: you mean 'bouncy bovine'
[06:55] <robertj_> should the be animals found in Africa?
[06:56] <robertj_> I like brunching better
[06:56] <robertj_> It's not quite breakfeast...it's not quite lunch...
[06:59] <sladen> mdz/daniels: for the livecd I'm tempted to do  vga=... (640x480)  Fallback is plain vga16.  Correct mode loaded at X.   For install I'm tempted with result of debconf:xserver-xorg/.../video-mode matched to the nearest vesa mode and then set in menu.lst for next reboot
[06:59] <Rotund> What image was Hoary supposed to invoke?  It just meant I had to spell it to everyone
[07:00] <robertj_> Old, and battle-hardened, well as much of a battle as one can be in without opposable thumbs
[07:00] <Rotund> hmmm.. interesting
[07:00] <Rotund> sladen: you working on usplash?
[07:01] <sladen> mdz/daniel: LiveCD/ppc, work with what you're given.  install/ppc, work with what you're given.
[07:01] <robertj_> Maybe Elequent Elephant, in which many of Hoary's rough edges are cleaned
[07:02] <sladen> for comparision.  Knoppix (IIRC) hard-code to 1024x768 on LiveCD.  Xandros to 320x200.
[07:03] <robertj_> sladen: 320x200 is what XP does
[07:04] <sladen> robertj_: I think it might even do 320x400x4-bit (also == 64kB)
[07:04] <robertj_> just tack that on the end of grub and there you go...
[07:05] <sladen> robertj_: and the LiveCD case (you need to have decided the mode before you load the kernel)
[07:06] <robertj_> what % of machines cannot jive with 1024x768x16 these days?
[07:06] <robertj_> I know there have to be some, I had to toss out an Apple monitor the other day because it wouldn't play nice
[07:07] <robertj_> but I didn't feel bad in the least about doing it ;)
[07:08] <Rotund> robertj_: Some laptops would be 800x600
[07:08] <sladen> robertj_: that's the tack of Knoppix:  http://www.bouissou.net/knoppix-mib/doc-html/Knoppix-Mib.html#display_or_graphics_problems
[07:10] <robertj_> Rotund: are any modern laptops 800x600?
[07:10] <Rotund> 800x600 would also be the case w/ older projectors
[07:10] <Rotund> some of the sub-notebooks
[07:10] <Rotund> I'm not necessarily saying new, but still in use, yes
[07:10] <robertj_> Rotund: hrmm, I thought they would be at a wide-aspect or half 1024
[07:10] <mdz> what causes people to randomly use the 'branding' keyword?
[07:11] <mdz> I am thinking of deleting it because it is not particularly useful in the first place, and I have never seen it used properly
[07:11] <Rotund> robertj_: Some of the old 12" were 800x600 too
[07:12] <Rotund> 640x480 would be for people that would output to a TV
[07:12] <robertj_> Rotund: even if the bootsplash doesn't work, X will as long as their TV doesn't die
[07:13] <Rotund> would it fall back to text?
[07:13] <robertj_> Rotund: why should it? The display mode would change to whatever they have configured X to be
[07:14] <robertj_> so if they take their laptop and hook it up to a TV, it's going to not work until they use xrandr to change it
[07:14] <robertj_> there is a decent chance that if its hooked up to a TV even the lower vesa modes wont work
[07:14] <robertj_> there are like 3 resolutions my TV syncs at and that's it
[07:14] <Rotund> there are desktops that use only a TV as an output
[07:14] <robertj_> and none are standard VESA res/refresh rate combos
[07:14] <Rotund> they use converter boxes
[07:15] <Rotund> that take 640x480x60Hz and convert it to NTSC
[07:15] <Rotund> rare, yes.  None, no.
[07:15] <robertj_> Rotund: there's always going to be something wierd going on that will prevent some new feature from working
[07:16] <Rotund> I agree w/ the "detect it"
[07:17] <robertj_> but my TV aint gonna work with any vesa mode
[07:17] <Rotund> it would w/ a converter box
[07:17] <robertj_> not it wont
[07:18] <robertj_> well maybe it if did something hideous
[07:18] <Rotund> it underscans a bit
[07:18] <robertj_> I dont consider that working
[07:18] <robertj_> there are lots of modes that will give me nice little moving lines
[07:18] <Rotund> it's mainly used for presentations and people w/ very bad vision
[07:19] <Rotund> no.  As in it doesn't fill the screen completely
[07:19] <robertj_> If you have bad vision, the lack of a bootsplash isn't likely to bother you that much
[07:20] <robertj_> Just because you are probably much more patient than the majority of individuals because you probably sit around a great deal of the time wishing you could actually read the manual someone takes the time to write
[07:20] <Rotund> huh?
[07:20] <robertj_> Sorry, random rant ;)
[07:21] <robertj_> Anyway, theres always going to be something not supported. 
[07:21] <Rotund> okay.  I was confused.  and I read and write manuals at work all the time
[07:21] <robertj_> Rotund: I was just saying that I bet people who are visually impaired would probably value manual reading more than the average joe
[07:21] <robertj_> that's all.
[07:22] <Rotund> ahh.  yeah.  Does it affect the install at all?
[07:22] <robertj_> Rotund: usplash doesn't affect anything unless it kills your equipment
[07:22] <Rotund> =)
[07:23] <robertj_> which at this point I just consider natural selection ;)
[07:23] <Rotund> I mean I don't need 1024x768 to run the installer.
[07:23] <robertj_> no
[07:24] <robertj_> usplash takes care of the bit between grub and X
[07:24] <Rotund> is the new installer X-based?
[07:24] <robertj_> no
[07:24] <robertj_> but it's not there if X is not there
[07:25] <Rotund> I know warty asked questions during that time the first time one booted
[07:26] <robertj_> anyway, no, it wouldn't matter as long as your monitor did not explode
[07:36] <fabbione> morning
[07:36] <fabbione> hey lamont
[07:36] <lamont> yo
[07:45] <Rotund> Oh yeah... Quantum Leap 2!  They're gonna bring back QL
[07:48] <pitti> morning
[07:49] <fabbione> hey pitti
[07:53] <fabbione> [ANNOUNCE]  hotplug-ng 001 release
[07:53] <fabbione> this sounds cool
[07:53] <fabbione> too bad it was announced one day after Feature Freeze
[07:54] <jdub> fabbione: heh
[07:54] <fabbione> jdub: i read the 0.19 announce
[07:54] <fabbione> it looks like it has several bug fixes
[07:54] <sladen> robertj_: it's more important than that.  casper/d-i ask questions and use the framebuffer to do so
[07:54] <jdub> mmm
[07:54] <fabbione> but it breaks the ABI
[07:55] <jdub> i've uploaded a gamin that supports it
[07:55] <jdub> it breaks API not ABI according to the announce
[07:55] <fabbione> you dream
[07:56] <fabbione> and it is not good that you patch your stuff and desync with the kernel
[07:56] <fabbione> otherwise we will land in the same situation like for ndis
[08:00] <fabbione> dilinger: the kernel team is taking over 2.6.10
[08:00] <fabbione> so i guess you can ask zul, T-Bone
[08:00] <fabbione> i am working on .11 pre right now
[08:00] <fabbione> but i can break rules on pre
[08:07] <jdub> fabbione: the gamin patch is compatible
[08:07] <jdub> fabbione: because, as the announce says, the ABI is compatible ;)
[08:20] <fabbione> LarryT-ubuntu: please reporte them via bugzilla.ubuntu.com
[08:20] <fabbione> and before that, try to check if they have not been reported already
[08:20] <LarryT-ubuntu> fabbione okey thx
[08:21] <fabbione> no problem
[08:21] <LarryT-ubuntu> fabbione there also is a problem with fr-latin9 keymap : no altgr keys :(
[08:21] <fabbione> LarryT-ubuntu: please same as above
[08:22] <fabbione> not all developers are awake now
[08:22] <LarryT-ubuntu> fabbione report to the same ?
[08:22] <LarryT-ubuntu> ok
[08:22] <LarryT-ubuntu> bye :)
[08:22] <fabbione> cya
[08:32] <fabbione> thom, elmo: can you please the incoming dir from all the X trash please?
[08:32] <fabbione> there were leftovers from a ftpd timeout
[08:32] <fabbione> (sparc related)
[08:46] <LarryT-ubuntu> fabbione please : for a fr-latin9 keymap problem : what kind of package is it ? :)
[08:46] <LarryT-ubuntu> fabbione i mean to report a bug
[08:46] <fabbione> xlibs
[08:47] <fabbione> or xorg
[08:47] <fabbione> the maintainer will take care of reassigning to the proper one
[08:47] <LarryT-ubuntu> fabbione so i leave the field empty ?
[08:47] <fabbione> you can't leave it empty
[08:47] <LarryT-ubuntu> fabbione thx
[08:47] <fabbione> write xorg in the component
[08:47] <LarryT-ubuntu> fabbione ok
[08:47] <fabbione> no problem
[09:18] <mdz> good night
[09:19] <jdub> night
[09:24] <fabbione> night mdz
[09:57] <d3vic3> how do I get all packages that depend on libflac4 in universe ? 
[09:58] <jdub> d3vic3: apt-cache rdepends libflac4
[09:58] <fabbione> d3vic3: apt-cache rdepends
[09:58] <jdub> d3vic3: still a few left ;)
[09:59] <d3vic3> tsk 
[10:00] <d3vic3> Reverse Depends:
[10:00] <d3vic3>   rezound
[10:00] <d3vic3>   muine
[10:00] <d3vic3>   mpd
[10:00] <d3vic3>  ....
[10:00] <d3vic3> is this the correct output ? 
[10:00] <jdub> yeah
[10:00] <d3vic3> what does Reverse Depends mean axactly ? 
[10:00] <Treenaks> d3vic3: "packages that depend on this package", instead of "packages this package depends on"
[10:00] <Treenaks> afaik
[10:02] <d3vic3> d'accord 
[10:02] <d3vic3> tsk 
[10:02] <d3vic3> I mean, I see, thanks 
[10:10] <pitti> elmo: xtrlock sync, please
[10:17] <dholbach> morning
[10:23] <fabbione> hey enrico 
[10:23] <enrico> ciao fabbione !
[10:24] <fabbione> enrico: do you have 2 secs to talk about docs?
[10:26] <enrico> fabbione: sure
[10:26] <fabbione> cool
[10:27] <fabbione> i am not sure you know that we are building up the kernel team
[10:27] <fabbione> but as a team we need a bunch of wiki docs
[10:27] <fabbione> and we would like to involve the doc team to write them in a proper way
[10:27] <fabbione> do you think it is something your team can help us with?
[10:28] <enrico> fabbione: not before hoary for sure :(
[10:28] <enrico> At the moment there are 3 active people committing to the repository
[10:28] <fabbione> hem.. we were talking for a few drafts within the next week ;)
[10:28] <fabbione> we don't need translations
[10:28] <fabbione> just to put down the basic scheletons for a good doc structure on the wiki
[10:29] <enrico> fabbione: you can post something about what you'd like to have in the docteam mailing list, to see if some unexpected lurker turns active
[10:30] <enrico> Considering the already active people, I'm pessimist; however, sometimes something wakes up unexpectedly, so I welcome events that can make it happen
[10:30] <fabbione> enrico: since you already know the team.. can you ask around for volunteers to contact me/lamont?
[10:30] <fabbione> i don't really have the time for another mailing list :(
[10:31] <fabbione> lamont is one of the new kenrel team leaders
[10:31] <enrico> fabbione: just put up like 5 lines with what you need and post it there, or post it to me and I'll post it there
[10:31] <fabbione> so that would kinda help
[10:31] <fabbione> what i wrote above is fine..
[10:31] <fabbione> later we will ask for proof-reading and stuff like that
[10:32] <fabbione> for now starting with a simple structure will be more than fine
[10:32] <helix> enrico! :) *hugs*
[10:32] <helix> heh
[10:33] <helix> you're supposed to be using python anyway, traitor!
[10:35] <enrico> fabbione: but what kind of wiki docs would you need?  So far it's a bit generic
[10:35] <amu> moins
[10:35] <enrico> like, what do you want to document about the kernel anyway?
[10:35] <Treenaks> helix: well, yes.. but unfortunately I get paid for writing perl
[10:36] <fabbione> enrico: we need to write procedures/policies/todo/team struct(partially done)
[10:36] <helix> Treenaks: well, it's not that unfortunate. :)
[10:36] <fabbione> stuff that a new team member needs to know
[10:37] <Treenaks> helix: that's true..
[10:37] <enrico> fabbione: oh, so it's not docs for users
[10:37] <Kamion> morning
[10:37] <enrico> fabbione: I can replicate the structure of the docteam pages for you, if you want
[10:37] <fabbione> enrico: they will come later on
[10:37] <Treenaks> fabbione: so "This [picture]  is Fabbione. Worship him as a god." should be enough?
[10:37] <fabbione> enrico: that would be nice yet
[10:37] <fabbione> yes
[10:37] <fabbione> hey Kamion 
[10:37] <amu> enrico: salut
[10:38] <fabbione> Treenaks: ehehhe
[10:50] <ogra> morning
[10:50] <dholbach> hello ogra! :-)
[10:50] <pitti> Hi ogra
[10:51] <pitti> ogra: will there be more patches today? :-)
[10:51] <jordi> jamesh: ping
[10:51] <ogra> pitti: depends on you ;) is the lsb patch ok ?
[10:52] <pitti> Didn't I already reply?
[10:53] <ogra> nope
[10:53] <pitti> ogra: oh, sorry. I will answer ASAP, just finishing my current task
[10:53] <ogra> pitti: at least not on the last changes :)
[10:54] <ogra> yup :) take your time
[10:54] <pitti> ogra: there were so many mails, I just review the latest one, right?
[10:54] <ogra> yup
[10:57] <jamesh> jordi: yeah?
[11:04] <seb128> jamesh: hey. have you looked on the battstat patch update ? (I've not updated my laptop yet)
[11:06] <jamesh> seb128: not yet.
[11:06] <seb128> k
[11:07] <jdub> jamesh: dude, people keep bugging me about some libglade related api/abi bug
[11:10] <Kamion> jdub: hm, how do you propose to write a pygtk frontend to perl debconf?
[11:10] <Kamion> jdub: that would suck major nuts internally
[11:12] <jdub> Kamion: We must be proactive, eternally vigilant, forever fighting, overwhelmingly clever and handsome.
[11:12] <Kamion> the direction Debian is going is in replacing perl debconf with cdebconf
[11:12] <Kamion> (probably)
[11:12] <fabbione> jdub: can i say that i am your friend? ;)
[11:12] <Kamion> but it's a boatload of work and half of it isn't done yet
[11:13] <ogra> Kamion: i would fear the changes to the packages (adjusting all these questions) more then the changes to debconf
[11:14] <jamesh> jdub: yeah.  looking at it.
[11:14] <Kamion> ogra: what changes to packages?
[11:14] <Kamion> well, anything that depends on debconf should depend on debconf | debconf-2.0
[11:14] <Kamion> but they can do that already :)
[11:14] <seb128> jdub: what do you think about the new trash icon ? (https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=6391)
[11:15] <seb128> jdub: same about #6393
[11:15] <ogra> Kamion: i dont think that the questionnaire the packages provide through debconf can be made HIG compliant without changing (od suppressing parts of) the questions....at least this will be a hadr task...
[11:15] <jdub> seb128: i like the new trash icon, certainly fits in more than the old one - but we're going to have a new icon theme for hoary anyway :)
[11:15] <ogra> s/od/or/
[11:16] <jdub> seb128: we need to ask corey not to file so many insubstantial bugs
[11:16] <seb128> yeah, he opened like 30 such bugs in 2 days
[11:16] <seb128> dunno what to do with all these stuff
[11:17] <Kamion> jdub: I would be happy for us to put effort into improving cdebconf's gtk UI, which needs to be done for the graphical installer anyway; a pygtk frontend would be pointless duplicated work over that though; and if we want to switch to a totally different debconf implementation in hoary+1, there's a lot of preparatory work that needs to be done now for hoary in order not to screw upgradability
[11:17] <ogra> seb128: make him a MOTU to solve the bugs himself ;)
[11:17] <Kamion> ogra: breaking the debconf protocol is out of the question
[11:17] <ogra> Kamion: then we should stick with what we have ;)
[11:17] <Kamion> well, that's what I favour
[11:18] <seb128> ogra: no no no, I don't want him to slay the new icons
[11:18] <Kamion> crap, uninstallable CD
[11:18] <ogra> lol
[11:18] <jamesh> seb128: tell him to take it up with jimmac
[11:18] <jdub> Kamion: to do the installer properly, we can't rely on pure generated debconf frontend
[11:18] <seb128> jamesh: that's an idea
[11:18] <Kamion> jdub: yes, which is why custom widgets are on the GraphicalInstaller wiki page
[11:19] <jordi> has anyone tried upgrading from woody to warty/hoary?
[11:19] <jordi> is it possible without major problems?
[11:19] <fabbione> jordi: yes
[11:19] <fabbione> at least to woody
[11:19] <jordi> to warty you mean?
[11:19] <fabbione> and there is an Howto somewhere with the things that should be done manually to complete
[11:19] <Kamion> jdub: frontend-independence remains very important, though
[11:19] <fabbione> from woody to warty
[11:20] <ogra> jordi: http://ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WartyUpgradeNotes
[11:20] <jdub> Kamion: this is a bigger discussion than we can manage over irc
[11:20] <jdub> Kamion: luckily, UDU is right at the beginning of the devel process ;)
[11:20] <Kamion> well, we've had the discussion before :)
[11:21] <jordi> ogra: thanks
[11:21] <Kamion> jdub: what I'm saying is that if you want a pygtk frontend to debconf in the next release, you probably need a full python implementation of debconf, and (a) that's shitty pointless rewriting work :-) (b) if that is a requirement for hoary+1 then work must be done now, not after UDU
[11:23] <jdub> Kamion: sounds insane. let's talk about the options at UDU.
[11:23] <Kamion> ok
[11:30] <ajmitch> jdub: is UDU near the time of the hoary+1 kickoff?
[11:31] <enrico> fabbione: can you point me to the pages about the kernel team that have already  been created?
[11:31] <fabbione> enrico: one it's in the team page
[11:31] <jdub> ajmitch: it's right after lca, so two weeks after the final release of hoary
[11:31] <Kamion> jdub: (admittedly, the urgency w.r.t. the graphical installer is alleviated by having all the questions in the first stage ...)
[11:32] <fabbione> the other ones i GUESS in the wiki
[11:32] <fabbione> but i didn't have time to check yet
[11:32] <Kamion> so only one debconf implementation :)
[11:32] <ajmitch> jdub: yeah, I just wasn't sure when the kickoff meeting was meant to be :)
[11:32] <jdub> ajmitch: dunno, but UDU will be a big part of the kickoff ;)
[11:32] <enrico> fabbione: ok, I'll look around
[11:32] <enrico> can you point me at the team page if it's not in the wiki?
[11:33] <ogra> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/KernelTeam
[11:33] <jdub> yo rburton 
[11:33] <rburton> hey jdub
[11:34] <ogra> rburton: use an sms gateway that sends notifications to him ;)
[11:34] <jdub> rburton: i will now :)
[11:35] <rburton> ogra: oh oh good plan.
[11:35] <rburton> thom: you'll know jdub's mobile number
[11:35] <rburton> ogra: i live in the GMT. HE WILL GET NO SLEEP
[11:35] <rburton> (hm, remove "the")
[11:36] <ogra>  rburton: hehe GTM+1 here
[11:36] <rburton> maybe i should start the Distributed Annoy Jeff Scheme
[11:36] <ajmitch> ogra: only 12 hours behind me :)
[11:37] <ogra> rburton: lets package it and attach it to reportbug ;)
[11:37] <jdub> rburton: it already exists
[11:37] <jdub> rburton: it's called "GNOME"
[11:37] <rburton> haha
[11:37] <ogra> lol
[11:38] <rburton> Kamion: there is some company whose name i can't recall who will sell 8mb/s adsl for 30quid/month
[11:38] <Kamion> are they on crack?
[11:38] <rburton> possibly
[11:38] <enrico> ogra: thanks
[11:38] <ajmitch> rburton: not bad, I'm still waiting for my upgrade to 256Kbps
[11:38] <rburton> it may have been 40/month
[11:38] <rburton> but that's still obscene
[11:38] <Treenaks> Kamion: that's (converted to euroa) a normal price here in .nl as well..
[11:38] <Treenaks> Kamion: for 8mbit
[11:38] <Kamion> Zen do 1mb/s at 30/month and I believe are not on crack
[11:38] <Kamion> not on crack is more important to me than 8mb/s :)
[11:38] <mjg59> Zen aren't /great/
[11:39] <mjg59> I'm happier with Metronet than I was with Zen
[11:39] <Kamion> oh yes, metronet was the one you mentioned
[11:40] <jamesh> my ISP is offering 8mb/s now too
[11:40] <jamesh> if they have their equipment installed at your exchange
[11:40] <pitti> ogra: the patch should now be buffer overflow free
[11:40] <pitti> ogra: however, I still spotted two memory leaks
[11:41] <jamesh> AU$50 a month for 10G peek + 10G off peek
[11:41] <mjg59> ajmitch: That's sort of like cutting off your genitals in order to get better sexual stimulation
[11:41] <Mithrandir> with no capping
[11:41] <ajmitch> mjg59: well it'd be better than what I can get here
[11:42] <ogra> pitti: where ?
[11:42] <pitti> ogra: hmm, I just reply to your mail
[11:42] <Mithrandir> ajmitch: move to Norway, land of free bandwidth and expensive beer. :P
[11:42] <rburton> man, 23 for 512kbps is looking crap
[11:42] <ogra> pitti: ok, thanks
[11:43] <pitti> ogra: sent
[11:43] <jamesh> the plan closest to 30 quid is 20G+20G (with rate limiting if you go over the limit)
[11:45] <Treenaks> or the Netherlands, where you get uncapped 8mbit :)
[11:46] <mjg59> 8mbit is available on exchanges which aren't purely BT now
[11:46] <jamesh> I'm happy with rate limiting (some ISPs like Telstra charge 15c/MB excess, which adds up very quickly)
[11:47] <mjg59> Which ought to include mine at some point this month
[11:47] <jamesh> of course, telstra is offering 500MB plans ...
[11:51] <YokoZar> How do I get CVS diff to acknowledge a deleted file?
[11:54] <jamesh> YokoZar: get write access to the repository, and then do a "cvs rm filename" before doing the diff
[11:55] <jamesh> YokoZar: alternatively append the output of "diff -u filename /dev/null" to the end of the patch
[11:55] <YokoZar> ahh yeah that's what it is
[11:55] <YokoZar> Thanks
[11:56] <YokoZar> Err wait
[11:57] <YokoZar> That'll just make a patch saying the file should be blank won't it?
[11:57] <YokoZar> Will that delete it when committed?
[11:57] <jamesh> by default, patch will remove files that are empty after patching 
[11:57] <YokoZar> Ah ok that makes things easier.
[11:58] <jamesh> the maintainer would need to run "cvs rm" when applying though, so you should probably mention that you deleted a file.
[12:02] <fabbione> hmmm
[12:02] <fabbione> elmo: is there something wrong with davis?
[12:02] <fabbione> gcc keeps hanging in different places
[12:03] <pitti> hmm, ENOELMO
[12:03] <fabbione> it was ccache
[12:04] <fabbione> weird
[12:06] <ogra> pitti: fixed and sent :)
[12:07] <enrico> fabbione: what are the shortcomings of the current KernelTeam page, and what would you want those pages to accomplish?
[12:08] <fabbione> very short coming = TODO list
[12:08] <fabbione> next will be procedures/policies
[12:08] <fabbione> the rest will be done by the new Team
[12:08] <enrico> ok
[12:08] <fabbione> i need to write the TODO before i leave
[12:08] <fabbione> but i am sure Chuck already wrote something
[12:08] <fabbione> dunno the page name tho
[12:08] <ogra> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/KernelTeam
[12:09] <enrico> I'm working on it
[12:09] <fabbione> ogra: thanks
[12:15] <pitti> ogra: you forgot g_free(key) :-(
[12:15] <pitti> ogra: do it immediately after the g_utf8_strdown
[12:15] <ogra> pitti: gah
[12:16] <ogra> pitti: one second....
[12:16] <enrico> fabbione: have a look at wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam now: is that what you wanted?
[12:18] <fabbione> checking now
[12:19] <fabbione> enrico: yup!
[12:19] <ogra> pitti: btw, the lag on hald startup (0 devices in lshal for a minute) let device-manager crash until there is at least one device
[12:19] <fabbione> perhaps linking the Todo List in the right place...
[12:19] <seb128> Mithrandir: here ?
[12:19] <fabbione> but we can do that.. i guess..
[12:21] <enrico> fabbione: I have no idea where the TODO list is...
[12:21] <ogra> pitti: fixed, tested and sent...
[12:21] <fabbione> right at the bottom in the subtopics :-)
[12:22] <Mithrandir> seb128: pong
[12:22] <enrico> oh, silly me
[12:22] <Mithrandir> seb128: it seems evo segfaults before even _init has run
[12:22] <seb128> Mithrandir: yeah, an user made the same comment
[12:23] <enrico> fabbione: fixed
[12:23] <seb128> Mithrandir: http://bugzilla.ximian.com/show_bug.cgi?id=71776 ... should I close the bug saying that's a build chain issue on the distro side ?
[12:23] <fabbione> enrico: thanks!
[12:23] <enrico> fabbione: work, FAQ, news and hot issues you'll take care of it yourselves
[12:23] <fabbione> enrico: sure! you already did a lot
[12:23] <pitti> ogra: okay, the patch is GO :-)
[12:24] <fabbione> saving us plenty of time learning wiki ;)
[12:24] <ogra> YAY YAY YAY !!!
[12:24] <pitti> ogra: :-)
[12:24] <pitti> ogra: however, I'd like to accumulate your other patches before upload
[12:24] <pitti> ogra: do you agree now that C just sucks? :-/
[12:24] <ogra> pitti: sure, i'll send you the corrected procfs patch today...
[12:25] <ogra> pitti: nah, if you know it like you do it cant ;)
[12:25] <Mithrandir> seb128: wait
[12:25] <pitti> ogra: it does suck
[12:25] <pitti> ogra: just because I _usually_ know which errors you can make, I still do them from time to time
[12:25] <ogra> pitti: if i wouldnt make this beginner mistakes it would be even better :)
[12:26] <pitti> ogra: if one is used to python/perl string handling (or just about any other sane language), C is just insane...
[12:26] <ogra> pitti: hehe
[12:26] <ogra> pitti: wait for the dmidecode patch.....
[12:27] <pitti> gulp
[12:27] <ogra> pitti: g_pattern_match_simple  ....
[12:27] <fabbione> thom: ?
[12:27] <thom> yes?
[12:27] <fabbione> thom: mind to clean the incoming dir on jackass from X sparc trash?
[12:28] <ogra> pitti: but dmidecode will still need half a day or so, because i havent got the dmi-wrapper code in yet....
[12:28] <pitti> ogra: sure, then just start with the procfs patch
[12:29] <ogra> yup, thats nearly in shape....
[12:29] <pitti> indeed that should be very similar to the cpuinfo patch
[12:29] <ogra> pitti: they are the same....(/proc/cpuinfo)
[12:30] <pitti> argh, yes
[12:30] <ogra> pitti: even dmidecode will be similar, just more string pattern matching
[12:30] <pitti> Hi elmo
[12:30] <thom> fabbione: there's nothing in there?
[12:30] <pitti> elmo: may I bomb you with some sync requests?
[12:30] <fabbione> thom: ah ok.. probably katie REJECT did the clean too
[12:31] <fabbione> thom: thanks for checking
[12:31] <elmo> pitti: if you want
[12:31] <pitti> elmo: mailman xtrlock xview sword (all from sid), please
[12:31] <fabbione> hey elmo
[12:33] <dholbach> lamont: ping
[12:34] <fabbione> dholbach: he is asleep
[12:34] <elmo> [NOT Updating - Modified]  mailman_2.1.5-5ubuntu1 (vs 2.1.5-6)
[12:34] <elmo> pitti: okay to override?
[12:34] <pitti> elmo: ack; same security fix as I did, and some RC bugs
[12:34] <dholbach> fabbione: he can ping me back, but thanks :-)
[12:34] <elmo> pitti: xview does seem to be in sid?
[12:35] <pitti> er, yes?
[12:36] <pitti> elmo: version 3.2p1.4-19
[12:36] <elmo> oh, well that version's already in hoary universe
[12:36] <elmo> (I meant xview doesn't seem to be newer in sid, sorry)
[12:36] <elmo> hi fabbione
[12:36] <fabbione> elmo: still at the dc?
[12:36] <elmo> yeah
[12:37] <fabbione> elmo: are you aware of any problems with ccache on davis hoary's chroot?
[12:37] <fabbione> it keeps hanging
[12:37] <fabbione> if i remove ccache it goes ok
[12:37] <pitti> elmo: oops, ok
[12:38] <pitti> elmo: I did not yet apt-get update today :-(
[12:38] <elmo> fabbione: nope, not aware of anything like that - sorry
[12:38] <fabbione> elmo: ok thanks
[12:40] <dholbach> hi elmo, did you receive my mails? sorry for posting one of the twice, but i had the headache from hell last night and was kind of stupid
[12:41] <elmo> dholbach: yes - I'll do it a bit later, I have to work on some servers at the moment
[12:41] <enrico> elmo: https://docteam.ubuntu.com gives connection refused :(
[12:41] <elmo> enrico: uh
[12:41] <mvo_> any recommondations for the ppc live cd? should I use array 3.5? or daily?
[12:41] <dholbach> elmo: alright, thanks
[12:41] <amu> mvo_: daily 
[12:42] <dholbach> hi mvo_
[12:43] <elmo> enrico: fixed - checking why/how it happened
[12:43] <enrico> elmo: thanks!
[12:45] <mvo_> hi dholbach 
[12:45] <mvo_> thanks amu 
[12:46] <thom> mvo_: 4?
[12:46] <thom> mvo_: array 4, even
[12:51] <mvo_> thom: right :) 4 or daily? how good/bad is daily. I want to win a friend over from macos to ubuntu.
[12:52] <thom> i'd use 4, i think
[12:53] <elmo> I installed 4 on a G5 most-of-the-way yesterday, and it WFM
[12:53] <elmo> and 4 on i386/amd64 all the way, and it also worked fine, FWIW
[12:56] <fabbione> damn new gcc
[12:58] <fabbione> thom: it's all your fault
[12:58] <fabbione> you should have never told me about ccache
[01:15] <thom> haggai: ping?
[01:16] <thom> screw it, it reads ok to me
[01:20] <haggai> thom: (pong)
[01:20] <thom> haggai: new universe text on https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/enter_bug.cgi?product=Ubuntu
[01:20] <thom> look alright?
[01:22] <haggai> thom: hmm, reports are likely to get lost on -users.  Can we not have a package name such as universe in bugzilla, where all bugs should go?
[01:22] <haggai> thom: or is that much more effort?
[01:22] <Kamion> space after "Please note:"
[01:23] <dholbach> thom: and write it in BOLD letters :-)
[01:25] <thom> haggai: ogra asked  for it on -users
[01:25] <thom> haggai: until malone is ready
[01:25] <haggai> thom: ah, I'll take it up with him then. The text is fine by me then, thanks
[01:25] <thom> cool
[01:25] <thom> Kamion: fixed, thanks
[01:26] <haggai> thom: do you know, would a universe package be a lot of effort (if orga was happy with it)?
[01:27] <Kamion> the bug list on a universe package would get totally insane, surely
[01:27] <haggai> yes, but would IMO be easier to track than random posts to -users
[01:27] <thom> haggai: it'd be horrific i think; that's why ogra wants to wait for malone
[01:27] <thom> which *should* be close
[01:29] <haggai> hmmkay
[01:29] <thom> dholbach: done
[01:30] <Kamion> mvo_: is there any way to tell apt-cdrom to just totally ignore signature checking?
[01:31] <mvo_> Kamion: you mean, ignore any Release.gpg files it may find on the cd? I can add this, what would you use it for?
[01:33] <dholbach> thom: i'd have used more bold text - but it's ok :-)
[01:34] <Kamion> mvo_: I just want to be able to do it optionally, for when (as right now) I'm working on a deliberately hacked CD and therefore the Release.gpg sig is broken
[01:34] <Kamion> at the moment it is excruciatingly painful to attempt to modify the install CD :(
[01:38] <mvo_> Kamion: file a bug about it please and I'll add the option
[01:39] <Kamion> mvo_: ok
[01:41] <Treenaks> hmmm... why is there no python2.4-serial
[01:41] <Kamion> deb http://gb.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ hoary main restricted
[01:41] <Kamion> deb-src http://gb.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ hoary main restricted
[01:41] <Kamion> rock
[01:42] <elmo> woo
[01:42] <Kamion> still an issue with the first-stage debconf db being visible while asking second-stage questions from the first stage, though
[01:42] <Kamion> (as in, it isn't)
[01:43] <pitti> cool, de.archive.ubuntu.com works as well
[01:43] <Kamion> so it will take a little more time to make that work properly
[01:43] <pitti> bah, it's the same IP
[01:43] <Kamion> pitti: pittis-private-mirror.archive.ubuntu.com works too
[01:43] <pitti> darn, I thougt it was similar to ftp.de.debian.org
[01:43] <Kamion> it can be eventually; us.archive.ubuntu.com is already distinct
[01:44] <dholbach> is kubuntu-base == ubutun-base?
[01:44] <Kamion> dholbach: yes; kubuntu-base should not exist, in fact, that's a bug I think
[01:44] <Kamion> since debootstrap totally ignores it :)
[01:44] <dholbach> that#s what i thought
[01:45] <pitti> aaargh
[01:45] <Kamion> amu: ^--
[01:45] <pitti> haggai: ping
[01:46] <dholbach> what are the plans on those kubuntu-* packages?
[01:46] <pitti> doko: ping
[01:46] <Kamion> dholbach: they'll be installed by Kubuntu CDs
[01:46] <dholbach> ah kubuntu cds... i see
[01:47] <dholbach> thanks Kamion
[01:49] <amu> Kamion: have to check 
[01:52] <doko> pitti: pong
[01:52] <haggai> pitti: pong
[01:53] <sivang> Morning all!
[01:53] <dholbach> hellas sivang!
[01:53] <sivang> dholbach: hey daniel, what's up?
[01:54] <sivang> hey seb128 
[01:54] <dholbach> dholbach: not much... working on my thesis - how are you?
[01:54] <seb128> hi sivang 
[01:54] <dholbach> sivang: not much... working on my thesis - how are you?
[01:55] <pitti> Hi sivang
[01:55] <sivang> dholbach: fine, thanks.
[01:55] <pitti> dholbach: hah, you are doing that, too! talking to yourself :-) 
[01:55] <dholbach> :-)
[01:55] <amu> dholbach: debootstrap --exclude=udev,kubuntu-base hoary $ROOT $MIRROR
[01:55] <sivang> Hey pitti, what's up?
[01:56] <dholbach> pitti: it's terrible - i'm already thinking about caffeine injections
[01:56] <dholbach> amu: you exclude udev?
[01:56] <pitti> sivang: for(;;) { fix_security_bug(); }
[01:56] <sivang> pitti: hehe :)
[01:56] <sivang> pitti: Ok, then that means you are pretty busy :)
[01:57] <pitti> sivang: what does your second g-s-t patch do? (Administrator profile)
[01:57] <Kamion> amu: hm, you actually need a different base system?
[01:57] <amu> Kamion: right, -base is desktop independ, is it a real problem to have both? 
[01:57] <pitti> sivang: I did not yet upload your first patch since I wait for that one
[01:57] <amu> Kamion: no the base is also fine for me
[01:57] <Kamion> amu: yes, it is, kubuntu-base cannot be used without a different debootstrap; I did mention this in the meeting
[01:58] <Kamion> amu: if you want that, it can be done, but I think in that case we would really want to fix our base system so that it works for both, since that's a lot less work :)
[01:59] <Kamion> of course, some derivatives will need a different base system, so I guess the work will have to be done eventually
[01:59] <Kamion> I was hoping to postpone it though :)
[01:59] <sivang> pitti: I am going to fix the other one two now, and make a new 2 pkgs (since the frontends and the backends are now seperate pkgs)
[01:59] <sivang> pitti: (I already did the fix I told you about wrt rebranching the uid change code so it would get even executed when we are modifying an existing user)
[01:59] <Kamion> amu: (well, just the presence of kubuntu-base doesn't break anything as such - kinda redundant though)
[02:01] <amu> Kamion: i think the base should be desktop independent, at the moment it is, i've no idea how it will be in feature, no problem, i can change my package  
[02:01] <Kamion> amu: yeah, I was kinda wondering about your --exclude=udev above; if udev really doesn't work for you we do need to fix that
[02:02] <seb128> jdub: what do you think about yelp 2.6/2.9 ?
[02:03] <sivang> pitti: err, correction, so it WONT get executed when modifying an existing user :)
[02:03] <Mithrandir> I assume we don't have any real snapshotting of the archive so I can ask for the archive on a given date?
[02:03] <amu> Kamion: i'll try it at weekend 
[02:03] <Mithrandir> (apart from ripping apart daily cds or something)
[02:04] <Mithrandir> Kamion: do we have daily images more than a week back?
[02:05] <Kamion> Mithrandir: no, sorry
[02:05] <jdub> seb128: let's ship 2.10
[02:05] <Kamion> Mithrandir: they get purged after four days or so
[02:05] <jdub> seb128: a11y is not a high priority for us atm
[02:05] <Kamion> Mithrandir: there's morgue.ubuntu.com though, for old packages in general?
[02:05] <jdub> seb128: i think bill is being pretty unreasonable about that whole problem
[02:05] <jdub> seb128: sun ship mozilla, and it's not as if it's accessible yet
[02:06] <Mithrandir> Kamion: I would _really_ want something debootstrappable; _something_ has changed which has broken evolution, and evo links to about 90 libraries, so it's painful to debug.
[02:06] <jdub> sun shining from orifices, etc.
[02:06] <Mithrandir> Kamion: it seems to SIGFPE before getting to _init even
[02:06] <seb128> jdub: k
[02:06] <Kamion> Mithrandir: try old array cds? we keep those
[02:06] <Mithrandir> Kamion: yeah, I'll do that
[02:10] <Mithrandir> oh well, I do at least get around 2MB/sec to cdimage.u.c now
[02:12] <Kamion> elmo: did you ever track down why apt-cdrom was hanging yesterday?
[02:13] <elmo> Kamion: yeah, the cable was unplugged :)
[02:13] <elmo> sorry, maybe I didn't make the link explicit; that's why I was asking for a "you don't have a network cable, you spethial muppet" prompt in the installer
[02:13] <elmo> s/cable/link/
[02:19] <fabbione> FLY CONCORDIA!
[02:19] <fabbione> elmo: please be careful not to unplug concordia 
[02:19] <fabbione> i am at the end of a fix for FBTBFS
[02:19] <fabbione> FTBFS
[02:21] <mantiena> Hi all
[02:27] <amu> Kamion: could you please restart germinate
[02:29] <rcaskey_> morning all
[02:29] <rcaskey_> what's germinate?
[02:30] <sivang> rcaskey_: I think it's the program the "expands" seeds into pkgs
[02:30] <sivang> (IIRC,AFAIK)
[02:31] <amu> rcaskey_: it generate a output ex. which you find at http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~cjwatson/germinate-hoary-output/
[02:33] <Kamion> also see http://www.ubuntu.com/wiki/SeedManagement
[02:33] <Kamion> amu: running
[02:33] <amu> Kamion: thx
[02:34] <sivang> amu: that's basically seed packages and their dependencies right?
[02:35] <mantiena> anyone could tell me where to look for ubuntu-installer documentation ? I wanna to write one component, which simply copies files from one partition to another instead of installing new system from debian packages
[02:41] <lamont> good morning world
[02:41] <thom> hey lamont
[02:42] <dholbach> hai lamont
[02:44] <dholbach> lamont: i just saw that mplayer could do with just a recompile (because of the libavcodec-transition), but even as a MOTU i couldnt upload it, so would you do it, if you find the time?
[02:44] <dholbach> (not that i use it, but i noticed... :-))
[02:44] <fabbione> ok world
[02:44] <fabbione> 2.6.11-0.2 is on the way to the archive
[02:44] <fabbione> and i am off 
[02:44] <fabbione> cya sometime on monday
[02:44] <pitti> see you fabbione!
[02:44] <pitti> fabbione: have a nice weekend
[02:44] <fabbione> from Ruined people's planet :)
[02:44] <Treenaks> fabbione: cya
[02:45] <lamont> later fabbione 
[02:45] <fabbione> pitti: tomorrow i am getting married...
[02:45] <fabbione> nice and married don't fit in the same weekend :)
[02:45] <Treenaks> fabbione: good luck then :)
[02:45] <pitti> fabbione: optimist...
[02:45] <fabbione> cya
[02:45] <lamont> dholbach: libavcodec transitioned this week, eh?
[02:45] <dholbach> lamont: seems so
[02:45] <dholbach> fabbione: all the best! :-)
[02:45] <pitti> fabbione: have fun at the party
[02:45] <lamont> dholbach: 'k
[02:46] <lamont> later fabbione 
[02:46] <rcaskey_> btw Kamion, sivang, thanks for the explination
[02:47] <ogra> fabbione: good luck :)
[02:52] <sivang> fabbione: congretulations :)
[02:52] <thom> darklight: have fun
[02:53] <thom> uh, fabbione 
[02:53] <thom> even
[02:53] <Kamion> amu: (finished a while ago)
[02:53] <Kamion> fabbione: have fun :)
[02:53] <Kamion> mantiena: you'd have to replace base-installer, I guess
[02:54] <Treenaks> thom: what/who did you wire?
[02:55] <thom> Treenaks: my ia64, sparc and alpha
[02:56] <mantiena> Kamion, I think too, amu you agree with us ?
[02:57] <Kamion> well actually I know you either have to replace base-installer or significantly hack it internally
[02:57] <Kamion> the latter might be easier, not sure
[03:01] <ogra> pitti: procfs patch is in your inbox
[03:01] <amu> Kamion: think, it's a kind of hack
[03:02] <Kamion> amu: hm?
[03:03] <elmo> what's with the "APPROVED" newness in xscreensaver?  it sounds like something from some 80's sci-fi film
[03:03] <elmo> and god how I hate how xscreensaver unconditionally enables new hacks
[03:04] <ogra>  elmo: hope you dont mean my lock window hack....
[03:05] <thom> ogra: the modes in xscreensaver are called hacks
[03:05] <sivang> ogra: how do I get your screen saver? ;-)
[03:05] <ogra> elmo: btw, a sync of ion3 would make a lot users happy (regarding the flood of requests in my inbox)
[03:05] <ogra> argh...to slow
[03:06] <thom> yow; that APPROVED thing is terrifying indeed
[03:06] <ogra> sivang: make sure your system is up to date and lock your screen....
[03:06] <sivang> ogra: wowow!
[03:06] <Treenaks> ogra: yeah, that rocks :)
[03:06] <sivang> ogra: so coool
[03:06] <ogra> sivang: i patched the password dialog....didnt write a xss
[03:07] <sivang> ogra: how did you make it look so good :)
[03:07] <sivang> ogra: yeah I recall you showed bits of code that looked like chineese to me at mataro :)
[03:07] <ogra> sivang: the beautification was rather simple....
[03:07] <Treenaks> sivang: ah, jwz-code :P
[03:08] <thom> ogra: are you planning to leave the APPROVED thing? it's rather in-your-face
[03:08] <Treenaks> Mithrandir: I think I'll have a working, very very basic dbus client/server with GPS stuff tonight
[03:08] <ogra> sivang: i found a patch to add xpm to the window (thats what you saw in mataro)
[03:08] <thom> besides that, good work
[03:08] <sivang> ogra: ah cool
[03:08] <ogra> sivang: the real hard stuff was to rip out every sign of X fonts and inject xft there instead
[03:08] <Mithrandir> Treenaks: yay!
[03:09] <ogra> elmo: btw, a sync of ion3 would make a lot users happy (regarding the flood of requests in my inbox)
[03:09] <elmo> and that's why I hate it.. 'cos 3d's so often randomly broken.  meh.
[03:09] <Treenaks> Mithrandir: I was thinking of a small command-line tool "whereami", analogous to "whoami"
[03:09] <sivang> Treenaks: jwz code?
[03:09] <elmo> ogra: I don't want to sync stuff just because it would make people happy.  if you've checked it and approve the sync, then please just ask for it
[03:09] <Treenaks> sivang: j/k
[03:10] <Treenaks> sivang: jwz is xscreensaver upstream
[03:10] <ogra> thom: depends on the time i have left after i finished the hwdb-client work....
[03:10] <ogra> elmo: ok, then please sync it :)
[03:11] <Mithrandir> Treenaks: whereami is already a package.
[03:11] <Treenaks> Mithrandir: hm..
[03:11] <Treenaks> Mithrandir: then I need a better name for the demo command-line client
[03:11] <Mithrandir> "where" ?
[03:12] <Treenaks> Mithrandir: hm.. point :)
[03:12] <Mithrandir> or gpswhere or something
[03:12] <Treenaks> I'll think of something ;)
[03:12] <elmo> ogra: done
[03:13] <ogra> elmo: thanks :) 
[03:13] <thom> lamont: how's the ia64 installer looking?
[03:14] <ogra> thom: the APPROVED thing.... i was planning to make the white overlay behind the font a bit transparent, so the big font wont matter this much anymore....
[03:14] <thom> ogra: i'm not sure why it needs to say anything if you succeed
[03:16] <mantiena> amu, I think it would be wise to use some usefull functions from base-installer udeb, like check_target or update_progress in liveCD installer, what you think ?
[03:16] <ogra> thom: the original dialog does thos too, but instead of an overlay it responds in the password input field....this would be an option too...but as i said, everything depends on hwdb, which is my prio 1
[03:16] <thom> ogra: nod
[03:17] <Kamion> mantiena: er, ok, I didn't know this was the live CD installer, I think this requires rather careful design rather than hacking if you plan to use d-i for it, but I'm going for lunch now
[03:21] <mantiena> Kaloz, hehe, tell me when you come back
[03:25] <Kaloz> mantiena: i will be back in a half an hour or so... i'm mostly gone due that i don't have mobo :p
[03:25] <Kaloz> oh, okay
[03:25] <Kaloz> :P
[03:26] <mantiena> Kamion, yes, I mean you
[03:28] <mantiena> Kaloz, sorry, XChat "improved" completion with tab in some 2.x version...
[03:52] <lamont> thom: was testing things with the livecd, I'll see about an install CD today
[03:52] <lamont> but ISTR that the install CD was working, except for maybe the final step.  livecd wanted help
[03:57] <thom> lamont: well, i can test livecd if that is more useful?
[03:58] <lamont> thom: I'm 20% of the way through the live ISO download...  if you wanted to test the install CD, that'd be way cool
[03:59] <thom> lamont: daily?
[03:59] <lamont> yeah
[03:59] <lamont> all the others have known b0rkage
[04:00] <thom> k
[04:22] <seb128> lamont: could you kick lilypond build ?
[04:24] <Kamion> mdz: I've changed the boot name in the live CD's isolinux.cfg from 'linux' to 'live', to better support install/live DVDs
[04:24] <jdub> :-)
[04:24] <thom> ber, another hour for ia64 install cd
[04:24] <Kamion> thom: has the apache thing on cdimage.ubuntu.com been fixed yet? if I start building install/live DVDs now, we'll definitely hit the 2GB limit on all architectures big-style
[04:24] <thom> no, working on it currently
[04:24] <thom> i'll let y ou know
[04:25] <Kamion> ok, thanks
[04:27] <pitti> ogra: why do you need config.h in procfs_info.h? (well, it doesn't hurt, though)
[04:30] <mantiena> Kamion, so, you have some  time to help me design liveCD installer ? I'm main developer of Baltix, which is debian based installable live CD, which is very popular in Lithuania (selled by some computers selling companies with new computers)
[04:31] <mantiena> Until now Baltix uses Morphix framework, but I think, that ubuntu framework is better
[04:31] <jdub> mantiena: cool :)
[04:31] <mantiena> I just need a possibility to install to hard disk
[04:32] <Kamion> mantiena: ok, so the question is whether d-i is the right thing to use
[04:32] <Kamion> the first question, at least
[04:32] <pitti> ogra: Ahem: "int fds[0] ;"
[04:32] <Treenaks> pitti: nice one
[04:33] <Kamion> currently, d-i's components really like to run in their own totally guaranteed environment; I wonder if you're prepared to deal with the issues that would result from trying to run them outside of that
[04:35] <Kamion> if not, then it might be easier to write something that just blats the contents of the live CD's ramdisk onto a disk and fiddles with a few files until it looks right
[04:35] <Kamion> which I guess is roughly where I came in :)
[04:35] <Kamion> I guess it's worth noting that the Ubuntu live CD already runs much of d-i (although not all of it) in the process of bringing up the live environment
[04:36] <Kamion> you'll have to deal with partitioning somehow, but given that you've got GNOME available you almost certainly shouldn't be attempting to use the installer's partitioner right now anyway
[04:36] <mantiena> Kamion, I talked with amu and we think, that d-i is good for this task
[04:37] <Kamion> what are your reasons?
[04:37] <mantiena> Kamion, main reasons are, that liveCD installer does most same tasks like debian-installer
[04:38] <dholbach> bbl
[04:38] <Kamion> all the hardware detection has already been done by the time the live installer would start
[04:38] <Kamion> the tasks that remain are:
[04:38] <Kamion>  - partitioning (you'd want to use a graphical interface, not d-i's partman)
[04:39] <Kamion>  - actually putting the files on the disk (works in a completely different way to d-i, is a single stage rather than two stages (base and desktop))
[04:39] <ogra> pitti: these two are the only errors you found ?
[04:39] <Kamion>  - bits like timezone configuration and apt configuration (some done already, others I can see you having to do yourself)
[04:39] <pitti> ogra: some more, I mailed you
[04:39] <ogra> pitti: thanks :)
[04:40] <pitti> no worries :-)
[04:40] <ogra> pitti: sorry for the lag, i was downstairs in the lab
[04:40] <Kamion>  - final cleanup pre-reboot (much of this is already done by casper, and I'm guessing the rest will be different since you won't want to run base-config post-reboot)
[04:40] <pitti> ogra: if there is any security bug in this code after the upload, I buy you a box of beer :-)
[04:40] <Kamion> so, while I can see the initial appeal of using d-i as the live installer, I have great difficulty seeing how it'd actually be practical in reality
[04:40] <ogra> hehe
[04:40] <Kamion> at least not without some pretty major reengineering
[04:41] <ogra> pitti: i'll not try to introduce a hidden one ;)
[04:41] <mantiena> Kamion, don't forget bootloader installing ;) I'm using morphixinstaller + partitionmorpher or gparted now for these tasks, but lots of morphixinstaller code is crap, and I should rewrite lots of components, for example I already included os-prober from debian-installer into morphixinstaller ;)
[04:42] <Kamion> mantiena: ok, that's true; that's the only top-level component I can see you including more or less unmodified
[04:42] <Kamion> mantiena: but really I think you will want a totally new framework to wrap around those few components
[04:42] <mantiena> Kamion, there are already working debian-installer components for all liveCD installer tasks, except file copying
[04:43] <Kamion> mantiena: do you have the framework (i.e. main-menu and udebs) working?
[04:43] <Kamion> mantiena: and are you using udebs pretty much as they stand, or repackaging?
[04:43] <ogra> pitti: afaik the info.bus=unknown is needed if you have no bus to assign to
[04:43] <mantiena> Kamion, I'm only in planing phase ;)
[04:44] <ogra> pitti: but i'd be happy to be proven wrong ;)
[04:44] <pitti> ogra: I really don't know it; if it's necessary, just keep it
[04:44] <pitti> oh, phone
[04:44] <ogra> k
[04:45] <mantiena> Kamion, amu told me, that it's 15 minutes job to make liveCD installer from debian-installer components
[04:45] <Kamion> mantiena: ok, then, I think I'd be inclined to write something new rather than a hack to base-installer; only a very few utility functions are useful, and those can safely be copied
[04:45] <Kamion> mantiena: I am amazed, and would love to see that demonstrated
[04:45] <Kamion> are you planning to reboot into the installer, or run it from GNOME?
[04:45] <ogra> does anyone here know a case in linux where procfs is mounted but cpuinfo or meminfo are not there ?
[04:45] <Kamion> or KDE, or whatever
[04:45] <mantiena> Kamion, I too, but amu doesn't have free time for this :(
[04:47] <Kamion> mantiena: I suppose udpkg *might* work on a live system, maybe
[04:47] <Kamion> don't try it on one you intend to use afterwards, but that concern doesn't apply to the live CD ;)
[04:48] <Kamion> but you wouldn't be able to install cdebconf
[04:48] <Kamion> (it's not coinstallable with debconf)
[04:48] <mantiena> Kamion, so, I think it would be easier to come back into d-i mode ;)
[04:48] <Kamion> so you would have to get over cdebconf/debconf incompatibilities, like the lack of progress bars in debconf
[04:48] <Kamion> mantiena: you can't without rebooting
[04:48] <pitti> ogra: just exit the function gracefully if fopen() returns NULL
[04:48] <Gagatan> Kamion: gotten any further with kickstarting?
[04:48] <Kamion> the d-i initrd has gone away by that point
[04:48] <pitti> ogra: instead of assuming anything :-)
[04:49] <ogra> pitti: okiedokie :)
[04:49] <Kamion> Gagatan: not in the last couple of days, I have several other things I'm responsible for and working on concurrently
[04:50] <mantiena> Kamion, why ?
[04:50] <Kamion> mantiena: I suppose you might be able to construct a little d-i system in a chroot, and run it from there, rather than attempting to run it in the base live environment
[04:50] <Kamion> mantiena: I think that would be by far the safest option
[04:50] <Gagatan> Kamion: are there any notes on the initial work/thoughts I can read?
[04:50] <Kamion> Gagatan: only in source package form, I'm afraid
[04:51] <Kamion> Gagatan: (kickseed and system-config-kickstart, both in hoary)
[04:51] <Kamion> mantiena: why has it gone away? to save memory, I think
[04:51] <Kamion> mantiena: ask mdz about that @_
[04:51] <Kamion> :)
[04:51] <Gagatan> Kamion: is there a cvs/svn-repostory for this?
[04:51] <mantiena> Kamion, ok
[04:52] <Kamion> Gagatan: kickseed is in arch (colin.watson@canonical.com--2005/kickseed--mainline--0, http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/archives/colin.watson@canonical.com--2005); the system-config-kickstart work I've done is not
[04:52] <Gagatan> ok
[04:52] <Kamion> but the latter is uninteresting from your point of view, I think
[04:52] <lamont> seb128: kicked
[04:53] <mantiena> Kamion, you are d-i developer ?
[04:54] <Kamion> mantiena: yes
[04:54] <ogra> pitti: procfs_refresh_info doesnt need to be exported ? how do i act if i want to poll the data to have constant updates ? if i call procfs_info_init, it will create 2 new devices on every poll
[04:54] <mantiena> Kamion, respect ;)
[04:54] <Kamion> thank you :)
[04:55] <ogra> pitti: that was the reason why i diverted the two functions at all....
[04:56] <pitti> ogra: phone
[04:56] <ogra> pitti ok.... s/diverted/separated/
[04:57] <mantiena> Kamion, for my goals it's better to run installer from GNOME, for example in chroot, as you told, but I don't know how to start it and how to deal with devfs problem :(
[04:57] <Kamion> run udev in the chroot with devfs rules?
[04:57] <Kamion> hoary's installer no longer requires actual devfs, merely devfs paths
[04:57] <mantiena> hehe, nice to hear ;)
[04:57] <seb128> lamont: thanks
[04:58] <seb128> Mithrandir: around ?
[04:58] <pitti> ogra: why would you want to poll /proc/cpuinfo?
[04:58] <Kamion> the devfs paths can probably go away eventually but that's a somewhat longer-term piece of work; in particular some of the bootloader installers do stuff like walking over /dev/discs, which is very convenient
[04:58] <pitti> ogra: it shouldn't change
[04:58] <ogra> pitti: sure it does... meminfo too
[04:59] <pitti> ogra: whoa, my cpu changes while the computer is running?
[04:59] <ogra> pitti: cpuinfo only shows the mhz value 
[04:59] <Kamion> pitti: cpu frequency scaling
[04:59] <pitti> ah, ok
[04:59] <ogra> pitti: ... that was set when hald was started
[04:59] <pitti> ogra: okay, that's a valid reason
[04:59] <ogra> pitti: the same goes for meminfo.....
[04:59] <pitti> ogra: however, I did not see any external reference to this function
[05:00] <pitti> ogra: so if you want to poll for it, don't you need to hook it into some timer ?
[05:00] <ogra> pitti: even polling is not on my list yet, it would be nice to have the function for it in place i thought ;)
[05:00] <pitti> ok
[05:00] <ogra> pitti: something i can play with hoary+1 then 
[05:00] <pitti> ogra: okay, fine for me
[05:01] <ogra> good...
[05:02] <mantiena> Kamion, I noticed, that udev-udeb_0.050-3ubuntu4_i386.udeb uses udev with devfs rules as default, I'm right ?
[05:02] <Kamion> mantiena: yes
[05:02] <lamont> ion3 needs build-dep love for xorg
[05:02] <ogra> lamont: i'm on it
[05:02] <ogra> lamont: its just a build-dep on libxinerama-dev
[05:02] <lamont> woot
[05:03] <lamont> Totals by arch:  amd64:16 i386:13 powerpc:12 ia64:69 
[05:03] <lamont> ia64 wins by a mile
[05:04] <lamont> Kamion: shame we can't tell your script to ignore OO.o/ia64
[05:06] <Kamion> lamont: well, they *are* uninstallable ...
[05:06] <lamont> on the bright side, I only had to download 175MB to freshen the livecd..  which brought my bandwidth usage right back to on-track for barely staying under quota again this month. :-)
[05:06] <lamont> Kamion: yeah, but we know that... and they clutter up the report. :-)
[05:06] <lamont> and it's not like we're going to _FIX_ it...
[05:06] <Kamion> you guys like your stats, I guess ;)
[05:07] <lamont> if I uploaded oo.o just to /Archit/s/any/i386 powerpc amd64/, I'd have to hunt myself down and kill me.
[05:07] <Kamion> lamont: at least the first step wouldn't take so long
[05:07] <lamont> but it would be a slow and painful death, I can promise you that... :-)
[05:08] <lamont> I could always upload an ia64-openoffice.org package that was nothing but meta data... :-)
[05:08] <lamont> but then mdz would hunt me down and kill me.
[05:08] <thom> lamont: just fix ooo2 to work everywhere and then we can use that ;-)
[05:09] <daniels> thom: hahahahaa
[05:09] <lamont> thom: sure - send me your patch.
[05:09] <thom> lamont: qsee, that's why i said "fix" not "apply my patch"
[05:09] <lamont> heh
[05:09] <pitti> lamont: btw, nice topic; will a language-support dependency "Depends: oo.o [i386 powerpc amd64 sparc] " do what we want?
[05:09] <lamont> thom, even apache is better than oo.o :-)
[05:10] <Kamion> pitti: no, that doesn't work
[05:10] <Kamion> pitti: you have to generate the Depends: field in debian/rules for that (e.g. use substvars)
[05:10] <pitti> Kamion: but the package is arch-all
[05:10] <Kamion> pitti: but the []  syntax is not understood in Depends:
[05:10] <pitti> hmm, what a pity
[05:11] <lamont> Kamion: it's starting to sound like an oo.o upload to fix the depends is in order maybe?
[05:11] <lamont> bah - same issue there
[05:11] <lamont> pitti's issue is all depends all depends partially-populated-arch
[05:12] <pitti> lamont: oh, right. that means ia64 would have just an empty oo.o metapackage?
[05:13] <lamont> pitti: in which case, I may as well upload a dummy ia64-oo.o package that just provides the dummy metapackages
[05:13] <lamont> because it's vile, sick, evil and wrong any way you go at it.
 pitti: but the []  syntax is not understood in Depends:
[05:13] <pitti> lamont: hmm, an integration into the main oo.o package sounds better to me (although an upload just for that is kind of a waste)
[05:13] <lamont> can we fix that? :-)
[05:14] <lamont> pitti: and I already promised to hunt myself down and kill me if I do it...
[05:14] <Kamion> lamont: -> Keybuk ;)
[05:14] <pitti> lamont: hmm, but whether we do the per-arch dep in OO.o metapacakge or in l-s-* is not really a difference :-(
[05:14] <lamont> Keybuk: please support [arch]  in Depends:   kthxbye
[05:15] <lamont> pitti: how large are the l-s-* packages?
[05:15] <pitti> tiny
[05:15] <pitti> just empty metapackages
[05:15] <pitti> same as openoffice.org
[05:15] <lamont> yeah - but your source is smaller...
[05:16] <Keybuk> lamont: substvars, kthxbye
[05:16] <pitti> but oo.o is easier to fix since it comes from a normal source package, not from an autogenerated one
[05:16] <lamont> couldn't they all be one source package that autogenerated boatloads of binaries?
[05:16] <Kamion> Keybuk: EARCHALL
[05:16] <lupus_> daniels, #include <X11/Xmu/WinUtil.h> in which package is that file? I need to install it
[05:16] <pitti> lamont: right, but this overthrows half of langpack-o-matic :-(
[05:16] <lupus_> gnome-utils seems to not check if the file is installed while it is needed so is there a .pc file for it?
[05:16] <lamont> lupus_: libxmu-dev, it says here
[05:16] <pitti> lamont: if nothing else helps, I will extend it to support per-arch deps, though
[05:17] <Kamion> wouldn't be so bad in l-s-* as it would be in l-p-*
[05:17] <pitti> *sigh*
[05:17] <lamont> pitti: lets kick it around with mdz and see which option is considered least evill
[05:17] <pitti> ok
[05:17] <pitti> lamont: "not break big things at friday evening" :-)
[05:17] <lamont> although I think it's varying shades from 99.9 to 99.99% black.. :-)
[05:17] <daniels> lupus_: livxmu-dev, yes
[05:17] <daniels> er, libxmu-dev
[05:18] <lamont> daniels: just wasn't sure how recent my Contents file was...
[05:21] <Kamion> Keybuk: (it only gets built once, so substvars don't help)
[05:21] <Keybuk> you know, I don't actually think there's a bug filed with that particular use case
[05:24] <elmo> eh, I'm sure there is
[05:24] <elmo> s/is/must be/
[05:25] <lamont> Starting Ubuntu
[05:25] <lamont> exec of '/sbin/init' failed: Input/output error
[05:25] <lamont> System halted
[05:26] <lamont> thom: if you want to try a livecd, you need the magic invocation
[05:26] <thom> lamont: i'm grabbing install cd
[05:26] <lamont> casper/enable=true casper-udeb/snapshot/backing-file=/cdrom/casper/filesystem.cloop
[05:35] <mantiena> Kamion, could you tell me how to start a debian-installer from chroot ? I'm not d-i guru, only trying to become d-i guru ;)
[05:45] <zul_> fabbione: ping sorry i was in meetings all morning but i did get 2.6.11
[05:46] <zul> bah..now i have another meeting
[05:47] <Kamion> mantiena: check out the 'demo' target in the debian-installer source package (build/Makefile) and follow what it does
[05:48] <Kamion> mdz: hm, do you actually use archive-copier's prebaseconfig stuff in casper any more? I hope not, since I merged the prebaseconfig script into its postinst :)
[05:49] <lamont> Kamion: why isn't casper-udeb/snapshot/backing-file defaulted to the right value?
[05:49] <Kamion> lamont: 'cos the location's controlled by debian-cd ...
[05:49] <Kamion> I guess defaulting it would be OK, though
[05:49] <mantiena> Kamion, thank you very much
[05:51] <Kamion> mdz: I'm pretty sure you aren't, actually, so removing it from the casper seed (it's causing germinate problems to have it there without anything that provides mounted-partitions)
[05:52] <thom> and finally the ia64 cd finishes downloading
[05:53] <Kamion> mdz: you're not using prebaseconfig either any more, are you?
[05:53] <snaggen> I'm trying to set up an apt archive using apt-ftparchive release but apt-get update complains about the releasefile not containing MD5Sum entry. Any ideas? (I have generated a Packages and a Source file, and the Release file contains MD5Sums for all three files).
[05:53] <Kamion> snaggen: in which directory did you run apt-ftparchive release?
[05:55] <snaggen> I ran it in the same dir as the packages and the Package and Source file.
[05:56] <Kamion> in Ubuntu, the release file goes in dists/hoary/Release but the Packages files are in dists/hoary/main/binary-$ARCH/Packages
[05:56] <Kamion> so if you have any kind of hierarchy like that then you'll need to adjust to cope ...
[05:56] <snaggen> Well I have set up a dir ubuntu on my own web, then I just dropped all files in that dir
[05:57] <snaggen> No file hirarchy at all
[05:58] <lamont> Kamion: my fingers get tired, you see...
[05:58] <mantiena> Kamion: I put summary of our discusion into http://www.gnoppix.org/wiki/index.php/LiveCDInstaller ;)
[05:59] <mdz> Kamion: unless archive-copier itself created a /usr/lib/casper symlink, I wasn't using it
[05:59] <mdz> (likewise for everything else)
[05:59] <pitti> Morning mdz
[05:59] <mdz> morning
[05:59] <pitti> mdz: new hpoj ready for you to be tested :-)
[05:59] <Kamion> mdz: excellent
[06:01] <thom> lamont: i assume an ia64 will boot off cd without too much coercion?
[06:01] <Kamion> mdz: removing prebaseconfig from casper seed too, then
[06:01] <mdz> sounds fine
[06:02] <lamont> thom: almost none: tell it to go into the efi loader or whatever
[06:02] <lamont> then find the cd in the list
[06:02] <mantiena> hi mdz 
[06:02] <lamont> fs0: (s/0/whatever/)
[06:02] <lamont> elilo
[06:02] <mdz> hi
[06:02] <thom> lamont: cool, lets see how well this works
[06:02] <sivang> hi mdz 
[06:05] <dholbach> bye everyone... i'm off
[06:07] <thom> well, no framebuffer but at least it boots
[06:07] <mantiena> mdz, you are main live CD developer ?
[06:07] <lamont> mdz: so the ia64 livecd gets up to the point where it fails to exec /sbin/init... :-(
[06:08] <mdz> mantiena: yes
[06:08] <mdz> lamont: fascinating
[06:08] <lamont> mdz: that's one word for it.
[06:09] <mdz> lamont: if you either bump the priority down to low, or switch consoles and SIGSTOP it before it does that, you should be able to poke around the system on /target and see what's wrong
[06:09] <lamont> mdz: and that's assuming that I didn't typo 'casper/enable=true casper-udeb/snapshot/backing-file=/cdrom/casper/filesystem.cloop'
[06:09] <mdz> it would have failed earlier if you typo'd that
[06:09] <lamont> mdz: I'll add that to the list for 'after the patch review'
[06:09] <lamont> kewl;
[06:12] <Kamion> I'll be working tonight, but may be offline for a good deal of it; babysitting
[06:12] <mantiena> mdz, I think we should increase ramdisk_size from 65536 to at least 131072
[06:12] <mantiena> because ubuntu live CD crashes very often if ramdisk_size is 64Mb
[06:12] <mdz> mantiena: I agree, but not for that reason
[06:12] <lamont> mdz: maybe let the ramdisk have 1/2 of memory?
[06:13] <mdz> because it doesn't crash very often for me
[06:13] <mdz> it doesn't crash at all
[06:13] <Kamion> well, I can bump it up now
[06:13] <mdz> lamont: unfortunately it's set on the kernel command line, so we don't know
[06:13] <mdz> but
[06:13] <mdz> I think it's in units of virtual memory
[06:13] <mdz> so we could set it to a gig if we wanted
[06:13] <lamont> ah, that's not so bad then
[06:13] <mdz> and then I can limit the actual usage inside casper easily if desired
[06:14] <Kamion> lamont: oh, hm, have you set ramdisk_size on the command line too?
[06:14] <mantiena> mdz, how long do you work from CD ?
[06:14] <Kamion> lamont: you may need to do so
[06:14] <mdz> mantiena: it doesn't matter how long you work, but rather what you do
[06:14] <lamont> Kamion: would having it too small cause /sbin/init's exec to fail???
[06:14] <mdz> installing packages uses a lot of space, e.g.
[06:15] <Kamion> lamont: might cause the cloop not to be unpacked properly I guess, dunno
[06:15] <mdz> lamont: entirely possible
[06:15] <mdz> if it's too small, the preparatory stuff could fill the ramdisk
[06:15] <mdz> though it seems unlikely
[06:15] <mdz> now that the locale stuff is pre-generated, it shouldn't take much space
[06:15] <Kamion> mantiena: I've bumped the ramdisk size up to 131072 for now (not on ia64 yet though, haven't made the changes to debian-installer to allow debian-cd to control that)
[06:15] <mdz> what's the default ramdisk size?
[06:15] <lamont> Kamion: so add 'ramdisk_size=131072'?
[06:16] <elmo> binaries are a lot bigger for ia64, fwiw
[06:16] <Kamion> lamont: yeah
[06:16] <elmo> (IIRC)
[06:16] <mantiena> mdz, yes, for example I can crash ubuntu live CD in 5 minutes, just uncoment universe from /etc/apt/sources.list and do apt-get update && apt-get install some packages
[06:16] <mdz> last I checked, the total size utilization going all the way into GNOME startup was about 6M
[06:16] <lamont> mantiena: that's unsurprising
[06:16] <mdz> mantiena: then don't do that
[06:17] <mantiena> mdz, so, ubuntu is about "dont do that" ? :-P
[06:17] <mdz> mantiena: no, just this particular conversation
[06:17] <mantiena> mdz, with morphix live CD I can do whatever I want
[06:17] <mantiena> and it doesn't crash
[06:17] <mdz> mantiena: that is funny
[06:18] <mdz> because mini_fo causes crashes for hundreds of Ubuntu users
[06:18] <mdz> which is why we don't use it
[06:18] <mdz> if you run apt-get update on the Ubuntu 4.10 live CD, which is based on Morphix, the kernel panics randomly
[06:18] <mantiena> mdz, hehe, Morphix uses minifo only in new beta versions ;)
[06:19] <mdz> mantiena: and what does it use in stable versions?
[06:19] <mdz> symlink trees, I suppose
[06:19] <mantiena> mdz, and Ubuntu 4.10 is based on very unstable Morphix base version, you are right, it crashes very often
[06:19] <mdz> there are many problems with symlink trees
[06:22] <mantiena> mdz, older morphix versions (0.4-1x) uses transluency, not symlink trees
[06:22] <thom> configuring postfix... this looks pretty good
[06:22] <lamont> thom: the last run I know of got right up to making the disk bootable and was missing something critical at that point.
[06:23] <lamont> mdz: so your thoughts on the language-support-en/oo.o/ia64 issue?
[06:23] <mdz> lamont: my thoughts are that ia64 is not making the cut :-/
[06:24] <mdz> is it installable, apart from the oo.o issue?
[06:24] <lamont> mdz: should we (a) make language-support-en be Arch: any, or (b) provide dummy meta-only oo.o packages for ia64
[06:24] <lamont> mdz: well, we know that. :-)
[06:24] <lamont> (c): just not include ubuntu-live on ia64
[06:24] <mdz> I don't really want either of us to spend cycles on it at this point
[06:25] <lamont> or change ubuntu-live to not include l-s-* on ia64
[06:25] <lamont> 't
[06:25] <mdz> Kamion: ramdisk_size=1048576 works fine on my 256M test system
[06:25] <mdz> Kamion: let's use that
[06:26] <thom> lamont: yeah, it bombs out in the elilo installer
[06:26] <lamont> thom: yeah - that's it
[06:27] <thom> how do i install a bootloader manually?
[06:27] <lamont> hrm... monitor on the ia64 box can't handle that screenrate
[06:28] <elmo> thom: with great pain and suffering
[06:28] <elmo> ia64 boot loaders are ritualisticly stoopid
[06:28] <thom> oh, goody
[06:30] <elmo> "yeah, we're Intel's cutting edge, wave of the future, etc. platform.  To prove this we're gonna use the keenest, most leet filesystem EVAH for our bootloader.  Yes, that's right.. FAT!  woo woo"
[06:30] <lamont> mdz: fwiw, livecd boots with ramdisk_size=262144 on ia64
[06:30] <thom> rofl
[06:30] <elmo> freaks
[06:30] <lamont> thom: modprobe vfat, make sure that's there, 
[06:31] <lamont> and then it's either a seed issue, or something else :-)
[06:32] <thom> how can people use bastard us keyboards? they're more horrible than french ones
[06:32] <thom> lamont: it's there
[06:33] <thom> um, oh good
[06:35] <mantiena> btw, where are liveCD's CVS or SVN ? I don't find this info in ubuntu.com :(
[06:37] <mdz> mantiena: there isn't any CVS or SVN; it is all in the Ubuntu package archive
[06:37] <mantiena> :(
[06:37] <mdz> ?
[06:38] <mdz> mantiena: is there something you would like to do which is more difficult this way?
[06:39] <mantiena> so where Kamion bumped ramdisk_size ?
[06:39] <mantiena> if there are no CVS or SVN ?
[06:39] <sivang> mantiena: what would CVS or SVN allow you to do that you cannot do now with casper, cloop and the installable pkgs from the archive?
[06:39] <mantiena> sivang, CVS would allow to work together
[06:40] <mdz> mantiena: Kamion maintains scripts for building all CDs, live and install
[06:41] <sivang> elmo: just seen your preview comment regarding the highly advanced fat system => rofl
[06:41] <mdz> mantiena: http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/archives/colin.watson@canonical.com--2004/
[06:42] <mdz> mantiena: but that is only tangentially related to live CD development
[06:42] <elmo> Kamion: #deb file:///cdrom/ hoary main restricted
[06:42] <jordi> mdz: did you talk to bubulle about an apt-listchanges upload?
[06:42] <elmo> Kamion: that's at the top of my sources.list after array 4 install?
[06:42] <mdz> jordi: he pinged me on IRC while I was asleep
[06:42] <jordi> mdz: he wants to ask you permission to upload a new one
[06:43] <jordi> a few translations (guess what, including Catalan) were forgotten, + Italian fucked up
[06:43] <mantiena> mdz, casper doesn't have CVS or SVN too ?
[06:44] <mdz> mantiena: apt-get source casper
[06:44] <mdz> mantiena: that is where all development happens
[06:45] <mdz> jordi: that is fine with me
[06:45] <jordi> mdz: ok, will forward :)
[06:46] <mdz> mantiena: I intend to set up an arch repository, but so far there has been no need.  can you tell me why it is a problem for you that it does not exist yet?
[06:46] <mdz> I tend to make small changes, test and upload them to hoary
[06:47] <mantiena> mdz, I have some casper improvements
[06:47] <mdz> mantiena: that's great; can you send me your patches?
[06:48] <mdz> Keybuk: is it possible yet to create an arch archive based on a sequence of source packages?
[06:49] <Keybuk> no, not yet
[06:49] <Keybuk> that's what the goal of next week is
[06:50] <mdz> Keybuk: casper would be a nice and simple test case ;
[06:50] <mdz> ;-)
[06:51] <mantiena> mdz, I can, but I don't know if you want them ;)
[06:51] <mdz> mantiena: I am interested in seeing them even if they are not finished
[06:53] <mantiena> mdz, I think, that into target/etc/fstab should be added all hard partitions, like in knoppix and morphix
[06:53] <mdz> mantiena: yes, this would be nice (both for the installer and live CD)
[06:53] <mdz> we have a bug open about it
[06:53] <mdz> https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669
[06:54] <mantiena> mdz, thanks
[06:54] <mdz> mantiena: there is code in the installer (os-prober) which examines partitions and determines if they contain Ubuntu, Windows, etc.
[06:54] <mantiena> mdz, yes, I know os-prober
[06:54] <mdz> I would like to extend and use that code, so that the partitions can be mounted with useful names
[06:55] <mdz> rather than hda1, hda2, etc.
[06:55] <mantiena> mdz, yea, this would be ideal
[06:56] <mantiena> for example win_partition1 or windows_drive1
[06:59] <elmo> whoever add /usr/bin/time to base, you rock
[06:59] <thom> heh
[07:01] <mdz> I didn't even know that was there
[07:03] <sabdfl> hey guys when last was Kamion around?
[07:04] <elmo> 17:16 UK time
[07:04] <elmo> (i.e. 50 minutes)
[07:09] <mantiena> mdz, there is one problem with os-prober - it tries to mount every partition as every possible filesystem type :( I think there should be better way, for example by using `parted /dev/hdx print`
[07:10] <mdz> mantiena: or even file(1)
[07:13] <mdz> seb128: ping?
[07:14] <mantiena> mdz, btw, I found one bug in os-prober (xfs filesystem is missing in /usr/lib/os-probes/init/10filesystems), should I report this bug into ubuntu bugzilla or into debian ?
[07:15] <seb128> mdz: pong
[07:21] <mdz> seb128: did you receive my email about suspend/hibernate?
[07:21] <mdz> mantiena: ubuntu bugzilla, please
[07:22] <seb128> mdz: bugzilla comment or mail ? no mail afaik
[07:22] <mdz> seb128: email
[07:22] <mdz> hmm, I wonder if my mail is being delayed
[07:22] <seb128> perhaps I've dropped it with some spams
[07:22] <seb128> or I've not got it
[07:22] <mdz> I sent a message some days ago and received no reply, so I sent another
[07:22] <seb128> send it again please
[07:22] <mdz> it was to ubuntu-devel, CC you
[07:22] <seb128> oh
[07:23] <mdz> forwarded a copy to you directly
[07:23] <seb128> right, so it's probably in my ubuntu-devel box
[07:23] <mdz> it is about the gdm suspend/hibernate stuff
[07:23] <seb128> what about it ? 
[07:24] <mdz> when we talked before, I think that you said it would be easy to set up
[07:24] <mdz> I would like to have it set up :-)
[07:24] <seb128> thom said one or two days ago that he was doing the backend to call
[07:24] <seb128> I'll have a look on the UI soon
[07:24] <mdz> thom: ?
[07:25] <seb128> fv 08 13:14:06 <thom>  for hibernate and suspend actions on the logout menu
[07:25] <seb128> fv 08 13:14:19 <seb128>        yeah, I've a bug open about this
[07:25] <seb128> fv 08 13:14:23 <thom>  yes
[07:25] <seb128> fv 08 13:14:31 <thom>  i'm working on the code to let you do it ;-)
[07:25] <seb128> fv 08 13:14:36 <thom>  (the backend code)
[07:26] <seb128> that's it
[07:28] <mantiena> mdz, ok, another bug - I'm not 100% sure, but I think, that parted-udeb should depend not only on libc6 but also on libparted, right ?
[07:28] <mdz> mantiena: possibly; Kamion can confirm if so
[07:29] <mantiena> Kamion
[07:29] <mantiena> ;)
[07:29] <mantiena> mdz, btw, if I report a bug to ubuntu bugzilla when this bug will be fixed in debian unstable ?
[07:29] <pvh> Is there any highlevel subsystem documentation around?
[07:30] <pvh> For example, a document explaining what mechanisms are involved in the standard ubuntu configuration for audio, printing, &c
[07:38] <mdz> mantiena: Kamion regularly merges Debian and Ubuntu installer components
[07:39] <shaya> has gnome printing changed in 2.9 such that it wont pick up the foo2zjs print drive?
[07:40] <mantiena> mdz, a wishlist to liveCD - hwclock (/etc/adjtime) should be set to LOCAL, because liveCD is mostly targeted to Windows users, right ?
[07:43] <mdz> mantiena: the live CD is intended to be universal, for all users
[07:43] <shaya> or put it this way, if a package in hoary suggests a broken package in universe where does one file a bug?
[07:43] <mdz> shaya: we don't have a bug tracker for universe yet
[07:44] <mdz> it's coming
[07:44] <shaya> yes, hence the Q
[07:45] <mdz> hence the A :-)
[07:45] <shaya> gnome print doesn't show my printer, even though the foo2zjs package is installed
[07:46] <mdz> I'm not familiar with that driver
[07:46] <shaya> for minolta printers
[07:46] <lamont_live> definitely need a new monitor for this machine... 800x640 scuks
[07:48] <shaya> hmm, see ms that it doesn't install the ppd file
[07:48] <shaya> source package has it, lets see what happens now
[07:48] <elmo> daniels: ?
[07:49] <mantiena> mdz, I understand that live CD is intended to be universal, but you know, that majority systems, on which liveCD will be uses, runs M$ evil OS...
[07:51] <seb128_> mdz: got the mail this time
[07:51] <mdz> seb128_: ok, there was nothing more to it than we discussed here :-)
[07:51] <mdz> I was just concerned that my mail was being lost
[07:52] <seb128_> yep
[07:52] <seb128_> I put that on the top of my todolist
[07:52] <mdz> thanks
[07:53] <seb128_> np
[07:54] <seb128_> BTW a amd64 guy should really look on the evolution breakage. It's broken for 2-3 weeks now, that bother users and ximian guys (I've got some mails about it)
[07:56] <mdz> seb128_: have you talked to Mithrandir?
[07:57] <seb128_> yeah, pinged him 4-5 times this week
[07:57] <seb128_> but he was busy with other stuff, had kernel issues and no news since
[07:57] <mdz> ah
[08:00] <Nafallo> this CC.archive.ubuntu.com doesn't work yet, right?
[08:02] <elmo> it "works" as in "doesn't break"
[08:02] <elmo> it may not work as you expect tho
[08:02] <mdz> us.archive DTRT at least
[08:02] <Nafallo> elmo: oki. was a bit confused when se.a.u.c ended up in england and de.a.u.c ended up in us (mtr)
[08:03] <Nafallo> :-)
[08:04] <Nafallo> the big question would be if I should sync against one of them instead of tu-dresden.de for my homemirror.
[08:07] <elmo> uh?
[08:07] <elmo> the only in the us is us.a.u.c
[08:09] <elmo> right now, it's a wildcard, so anything except 'us.archive.ubuntu.com' points at the same place as archive.ubuntu.com which is in the UK
[08:09] <Nafallo> hmm, I got when I try it now it points right.
[08:09] <Nafallo> s/I got//
[08:11] <Treenaks> ogra: ping?
[08:13] <ogra> Treenaks: pong
[08:13] <Nafallo> de was 66.154.103.47 says me bash-history :-)
[08:14] <Treenaks> ogra: uh.. python-serial (pyserial) isn't available ina "python2.4" flavor yet
[08:14] <Treenaks> ina=in
[08:14] <ogra> hmm
[08:14] <Treenaks> ogra: how can we fix that?
[08:15] <ogra> Treenaks: i'm currently fighting with ion3 which seems to have a own license for every line of code...
[08:15] <Treenaks> ogra: ugh..
[08:15] <Treenaks> ogra: I'll try to build deps.. I think it's just a recompile
[08:15] <ogra> Treenaks: i can either put it on my list, but it will have to wait some days or you could fix it if you like
[08:16] <Treenaks> ogra: I'll try to see how easy it is
[08:16] <ogra> Treenaks: since you are still missing your first upload ;)
[08:16] <Treenaks> ogra: if it's just a recompile it's easy :)
[08:16] <Treenaks> ogra: yeah :)
[08:17] <Treenaks> ogra: never mind my stupidity
[08:17] <Treenaks> ogra: dpkg -L python-serial
[08:17] <Treenaks> /usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/serial/serialposix.py
[08:17] <ogra> heh
[08:17] <Treenaks> ogra: next time I'll look before I shout ;)
[08:20] <mdz> amu: ping
[08:21] <amu> mdz: pong 
[08:21] <mdz> amu: why is 'kde' not in the kubuntu desktop seed?
[08:21] <mdz> amu: or kdm?
[08:23] <amu> .. cause it's in the metapackage, i'm not sure if we need it twice  
[08:24] <mdz> amu: I guess I didn't communicate clearly enough when we talked about this
[08:24] <mdz> the metapackage is supposed to be generated from the seeds
[08:25] <mdz> but instead you edited it by hand
[08:25] <mdz> so it doesn't match
[08:25] <amu> oh, i'll fix this 
[08:25] <bluefoxicy> how do I make iptables rules restore at boot
[08:25] <mantiena> mdz, what you think about default resolution in live CD ? I think 1280x1024 is not good
[08:30] <sivang> bluefoxicy: make it a /etc/init.d script, and give it a number low enough you it would be executed in the right time, on my router I have an /etc/init.d/firewall.sh and in /etc/rc2.d/S12router which is a symlink to the /etc/init.d file
[08:32] <bluefoxicy> sivang:  this isn't yet standard in ubuntu?
[08:32] <bluefoxicy> sivang:  on gentoo, there's a nice script, 'iptables', that's in /etc/init.d/, that /etc/init.d/iptables save saves your rules; on restart, it restores them (i.e. at boot) :)
[08:33] <bluefoxicy> sivang:  perhaps  ishould port the script to ubuntu
[08:39] <lamont> bluefoxicy: I don't restore them at boot.  I install them.
[08:39] <bluefoxicy> log_error_msg?
[08:43] <mdz> mantiena: the default mode is determined by a probe
[08:44] <mdz> e.g., on my laptop it is 1024x768, on my desktop 1600x1200
[08:45] <amu> Added gedit to desktop-i386, desktop-amd64, desktop-powerpc, desktop-ia64, desktop-sparc
[08:46] <amu> mdz: in this case i add gedit to the blacklist 
[08:46] <amu> +?
[08:46] <mdz> amu: why?
[08:47] <amu> mdz: i dont want it on the desktop-i386 
[08:47] <mdz> amu: does something in the seed depend on it?
[08:48] <mdz> I don't see it in the germinate output
[08:48] <amu> mdz: check today the seeds, and another guy from kde said it's gnome free now.
[08:49] <mdz> amu: http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/germinate-output/kubuntu-hoary/all
[08:49] <amu> ... there are some more gnome apps
[08:50] <mdz> gedit is not there
[08:50] <mdz> the blacklist is for packages that we do not want in main
[08:50] <mdz> it should be identical in kubuntu and ubuntu
[08:50] <mdz> (for now)
[08:52] <mantiena> mdz, but on most my tested systems (17' CRT monitors) ubuntu live starts in 1280x1024 resolutions, which is really not good for these monitors
[08:52] <mdz> amu: please chmod -R g+rwX /home/warthogs/archives/kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
[08:52] <amu> mdz: let me explain what i did, i uploaded the seed and waited till the changes are on the web, than i run update from the meta package and a lot of gnomepackages are added
[08:53] <mdz> amu: and set your umask on chinstrap to 002
[08:57] <amu> umask done; permission are set to cjwatson, so i cant change 
[08:57] <mdz> thanks
[08:58] <mdz> don't forget your umask, so that it doesn't happen again
[08:58] <thom> mdz: sorry, throwing dinner down my neck and going out to meet friends. i'll get with seb on monday and we can get some working code together
[08:59] <amu> mdz: added it to my profile
[08:59] <mdz> thom: ok, have a good weekend
[09:00] <thom> thanks, and you
[09:00] <thom> (it should be pretty trivial to implement, btw)
[09:01] <mdz> I thought so, which was why I was surprised that it wasn't already there before feature freeze
[09:02] <thom> well, the interface itself was quite hard; the gnome stuff to use it should be easy
[09:10] <mantiena> mdz, agains which Product (LiveCD or Ubuntu) and package (gues xserver-xorg ) should I report default resolution bug ?
[09:11] <mdz> mantiena: xserver-xorg
[09:11] <mdz> mantiena: include copies of /var/log/Xorg.0.log and /etc/X11/xorg.conf
[09:11] <mantiena> mdz, thanks
[09:11] <mdz> mantiena: the resolution is too high or too low?
[09:11] <mantiena> mdz, should I use livecd keyword ?
[09:12] <mdz> mantiena: no; exactly the same thing will happen on an install
[09:13] <mantiena> mdz, but on most my tested systems (17' CRT monitors) ubuntu live starts in 1280x1024 resolutions, which is really not good for these monitors, most people use 1024x768 or 1152x864
[09:14] <mdz> if the monitor supports it, and at a reasonable refresh rate, then I wouldn't consider it a bug to use that mode by default
[09:14] <mdz> the user can select a different one if they like
[09:16] <mdz> amu: ok, I have added kde and kdm to the kubuntu desktop seed
[09:16] <mdz> amu: once elmo resyncs the archive, I will upload a new kubuntu-meta generated exclusively from the seeds
[09:17] <mantiena> mdz, hehe, fonts are very small when using 17 CRT monitor on 1280x1024 resolution and refresh rate is 60 or 75 Hz, which is really bad
[09:18] <mdz> mantiena: 75Hz is a fine refresh rate
[09:18] <mdz> I am at 75Hz right now
[09:19] <mantiena> mdz, you are using CRT or LCD monitor ?
[09:19] <mdz> CRT
[09:19] <mdz> LCDs don't have refresh rates
[09:19] <mantiena> mdz, so, you eyes are crying
[09:20] <mdz> you are incorrect
[09:20] <mantiena> I don't think so
[09:20] <Mithrandir> seb128_: pong
[09:21] <seb128_> Mithrandir: ximian guys start to mail me because of the amd64 issue in hoary since users bug them ... any way to solve that ?
[09:21] <Mithrandir> seb128_: I'm binary searching through the versions from array 3 until now.
[09:22] <Mithrandir> seb128_: evo links again every library on earth, so it takes a little while
[09:22] <seb128_> according to the comments on different bugs, some users get it working with a rebuild
[09:22] <Mithrandir> could you give me a reference?
[09:24] <amu> mdz: strange,i added with patch-6, kdm and kde to the kubuntu desktop seed, saw you did with patch-7 excatly the same, i confused now 
[09:25] <ogra> Mithrandir: https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5870 comment 5, 8 and 9
[09:27] <Mithrandir> ogra: not really useful -- "I built them by hand and they work".  They should tell a bit more about their installed stuff than just gcc version
[09:27] <seb128_> Mithrandir: https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5870
[09:28] <ogra> Mithrandir: 8 is more interesting....
[09:28] <Mithrandir> ogra: that just means the build-deps are right -- evo build-deps against god know what libraries.
[09:29] <Mithrandir> ogra: (yes, I'm whining; I just need to know exact versions for it to help me)
[09:29] <ogra> Mithrandir: i know, i tried to build it here too ;) (didnt work btw)
[09:30] <Mithrandir> binary searching should work, it just takes time.
[09:30] <Mithrandir> evo's not the lightest app to build there is.
[09:30] <ogra> heh...surely not
[09:34] <elmo> seb128: dude, is there a bug about this gaim/metacity/whatever, "gaim doesn't pop up, like I asked, begged, bribed, etc. it to" bug?
[09:35] <mdz> also known as "why did the gnome-terminal I just opened appear behind the old one"
[09:36] <ogra> the new metacity pop-under feature
[09:41] <seb128_> elmo: http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=3159
[09:41] <seb128_> elmo: that's a global bug about focus issues with the new metacity, just list here your issues
[09:41] <lamont> firecall
[09:46] <Mithrandir> seb128_: hmm, the bug was filed jan 25th.  array-3, which works, was released jan 20th.
[09:46] <Mithrandir> seb128_: so the bug is probably in between there somewhere.
[09:48] <ogra> Mithrandir: i have version 2.1.3.2-0ubuntu2 locked and working fine here...
[09:49] <ogra> Mithrandir: anything later segfaults
[09:49] <elmo> ok, gaim's on there
[09:50] <netdur> hey, I see there OOo 1.9x... it is installable? I want to test it!
[09:51] <Mithrandir> ogra: 2.1.3.2-0ubuntu3 works here.
[09:51] <ogra> Mithrandir: weird
[09:54] <Mithrandir> ogra: going from evo libcamel1.2-1_1.1.3-0ubuntu10, evolution-data-server_1.1.3-0ubuntu8 and evolution_2.1.3.2-0ubuntu3 to libcamel1.2-2_1.1.4.1-0ubuntu1, evolution-data-server_1.1.4.1 and evolution_2.1.4-0ubuntu1 breaks.
[09:54] <Mithrandir> s/evo//
[09:55] <Mithrandir> *sigh*; new upstream versions. :(
[09:55] <Mithrandir> I need to diff those, go through the changesets and see what might have broken
[09:56] <mantiena> mdz, according pretty old TCO99 standard minimal mandatory vertical refresh is 85 Hz, recommended is 100 Hz, look at http://www.tcodevelopment.com/pls/nvp/Upload.Show?CID=776&MID=141 
[09:56] <ogra> Mithrandir: hmm, dont they test build on amd64 at ximian
[09:56] <seb128_> Mithrandir: the issues has started with ximian connector before evolution IIRC
[09:56] <Mithrandir> ogra: it might be something else, somewhere which triggers the problem.
[09:56] <mantiena> mdz, so, I'm correct :-P
[09:56] <Mithrandir> seb128_: I'm not sure the connector problems are related.
[09:56] <seb128_> k
[09:57] <Mithrandir> seb128_: I'm not saying they aren't, I'm saying I'm not sure, mind. :)
[09:57] <seb128_> yeah
[09:57] <mdz> mantiena: at 75Hz I have no flicker and no eye strain, so I'll be the judge of my own comfort, thanks
[09:58] <Mithrandir> evo 2.1.4 seems to be the first which used libdb4.2 in the build-deps; I'll make sure the libdb I have on the system is ok; amd64-wise
[10:01] <mantiena> mdz, hehe, try to work at 100 Hz for about 1-2 months, then try 75Hz and you notice the difference ;)
[10:02] <Mithrandir> mantiena: it really depends on the monitor -- a lot of older monitors are fine at 75Hz since their phosphor is slower.
[10:04] <mantiena> Mithrandir, i have old monitor, but 75 Hz is very very bad for me
[10:05] <mantiena> but if I work some time on 75Hz my eyes don't notice difference between 75Hz and 85 or 100Hz
[10:07] <Mithrandir> seb128_: bah, I'm too tired to hack on this now; I'll look at it tomorrow, but now we know between what versions stuff broke.
[10:07] <Mithrandir> ogra: I'm also a bit concerned about "works by accident"
[10:07] <seb128_> k
[10:08] <Mithrandir> seb128_: is the upstream delta between the versions I wrote above large?
[10:12] <seb128_> dunno
[10:13] <seb128_> there is something like 15 days before releases, so probably not huge
[10:13] <seb128_> s/before/between/
[10:15] <zul> later..
[10:52] <restrex> hi guyz .. what option on freetype at hoary is enabled at this shot? http://restrex.dotgeek.org/ I ask it 'cause the fonts look cool !
[10:54] <marcin_ant> restrex: you need to improve your statistics right?
[10:55] <website> marcin_ant, i think hte same
[10:55] <restrex> marcin_ant gos is looking this..
[10:55] <restrex> God
[10:57] <marcin_ant> restrex: ?
[10:57] <restrex> yes
[10:58] <restrex> I've been 3 days asking the same
[10:58] <restrex> :(
[10:58] <marcin_ant> restrex: what do you want?
[10:58] <restrex> I don't know what it's called the option of freetype that's enabled now on hoary
[10:59] <restrex>  I don't know How is called the option of freetype that's enabled now on hoary
[10:59] <restrex>  http://restrex.dotgeek.org/hoary.png  http://www.freepgs.com/juan-pablo/ubuntu.png
[10:59] <restrex> here is the difference
[10:59] <restrex> it the first shot it's enabled
[10:59] <restrex> on second it's disabed..
[10:59] <restrex> the first is hoary the second warty
[11:00] <marcin_ant> restrex: ok now we can see
[11:00] <restrex> :D :P
[11:01] <marcin_ant> restrex: url in your first question was wrong...
[11:01] <restrex> ohhh sorry ys :(
[11:01] <marcin_ant> restrex: I think that the difference is from antialiasing
[11:01] <restrex> yes :/
[11:01] <restrex> ok
[11:01] <restrex> :/
[11:01] <marcin_ant> Desktop -> Preferences -> Fonts
[11:02] <marcin_ant> Font rendering
[11:02] <restrex> mmmm I'm gonna see it now.... but I tried it before and nothing happened
[11:02] <restrex> I want to aply the 'antialiasing' on warty...
[11:03] <restrex> apply* (sorry my english please) :)
[11:03] <marcin_ant> restrex: you can take a look at "details" section in this "Fonts" preferences dialog
[11:03] <restrex> ok
[11:03] <sabdfl> guys, netapplet is crackful
[11:03] <marcin_ant> restrex: you need to click "details" button
[11:04] <restrex> ok ;)
[11:04] <restrex> I power on the computer .. :P
[11:04] <marcin_ant> restrex: anyway for me unfortunately all these "default" fonts aren't good
[11:04] <marcin_ant> restrex: and I use tahoma
[11:05] <marcin_ant> restrex: maybe you should try some "propietary" fonts too ;)
[11:05] <restrex> oh ok thanks for help me ;)
[11:05] <restrex> jeje
[11:05] <marcin_ant> restrex: np
[11:06] <restrex> I friend said me
[11:06] <restrex> apt-get source freetype and read the code...
[11:06] <restrex> :/
[11:28] <bluefoxicy> OK
[11:28] <bluefoxicy> so firestarter is pretty
[11:28] <bluefoxicy> but it breaks things
[11:29] <bluefoxicy> I now can't get my dcc to work, as the ip_nat_irc and ip_conntrack_irc modules are loaded, yet the firewall disallows any DCC
[11:29] <bluefoxicy> iptables -F doesn't really flush the firewall either, it simply breaks it completely, leaving about 5 custom chains empty too (instead of flushing them out wtf)
[11:31] <sivang> bluefoxicy: firefox really annoyed me when I used it..about a year ago..
[11:34] <mdz> sivang: firefox != firestarter
[11:37] <bluefoxicy> sivang:  firewalling
[11:37] <mdz> we looked at firestarter for Ubuntu, and came to the same conclusions. that's why it's in universe
[11:38] <bluefoxicy> yeah
[11:38] <bluefoxicy> it's nice, easy to use, but damn
[11:38] <sivang> bluefoxicy: ops sorry
[11:38] <sivang> I meant firestarter
[11:38] <sivang> mdz: ;)
[11:38] <bluefoxicy> mdz:  but at the same time, some users are going to want to use their machine as a router, hence why Windows comes with point and click "internet connection sharing"
[11:39] <bluefoxicy> you can make the iptables rule yourself now, but then you have to write a script to load the rule on boot, yourself.
[11:39] <sivang> bluefoxicy: which usually never works (from people I have helped with that) and is really fragile
[11:39] <bluefoxicy> that's fine for me
[11:39] <bluefoxicy> but I don't know very many people (even linux users) who can actually use iptables
[11:39] <bluefoxicy> much less write an init script to set up iptables for them
[11:41] <sivang> bluefoxicy: I am thinking of adding a briding capability to network-admin (this yet pending discussion with upstrea) which if we got it right, would allow us to use ubuntu system as nice net sharing devices, as I am using my system here manually (it's a bridg for 2 other machines)
[11:42] <bluefoxicy> heh
[11:42] <sivang> bluefoxicy: for internet sharing purposes, briding is so cool if have a nice set dhcp server , although this may not be the use case for most of the users...
[11:42] <sivang> bluefoxicy: s/dhcp server/router and firwall/
[11:44] <sivang> s/briding/bridging/
[11:44] <sivang> bluefoxicy: briding capabilty to g-s-t might get me in the wrong places :))
[11:48] <bluefoxicy> there
[11:49] <bluefoxicy> I've griped at ubuntu-devel and the author
[12:00] <restrex> marcin_ant
[12:00] <restrex> I have to enable that <match target="font">
[12:00] <restrex>    <edit name="autohint" mode="assign">
[12:00] <restrex>      <bool>true</bool>
[12:00] <restrex>    </edit>
[12:00] <restrex>  </match>
 
[12:00] <restrex> :D
[12:00] <restrex> that worked ;)