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| sivang | ah yay, just noticed the time has changed for the meeting :) | 05:00 |
|---|---|---|
| Simira | has it? | 05:00 |
| Simira | to when? | 05:00 |
| Kamion | "Tuesday 15 February 2005 20:00 UTC: Technical Board" | 05:01 |
| pitti | 20:00 UTC | 05:01 |
| Simira | oh, the technical board, yes | 05:01 |
| zul | it was changed a while ago | 05:01 |
| Simira | but now is the Council meeting, right? | 05:02 |
| Kamion | no, that's next week | 05:02 |
| Kamion | the topic is confusingly ordered | 05:02 |
| zul | no today is the 15th | 05:02 |
| Simira | doh... | 05:02 |
| Simira | I've been SO sure it's this week. Arg! | 05:02 |
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| dholbach | ok... i'm off - have a nice evening everyone | 08:13 |
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| zul | there is a meeting soon isnt there? | 08:36 |
| fabbione | yup | 08:36 |
| haggai | yes, 25 min | 08:36 |
| fabbione | 24 minutes | 08:36 |
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| mako | mvo won't make it either | 08:43 |
| mako | at least not at first | 08:43 |
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| mdz | mako: are you going to be here for the meeting? | 08:58 |
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| fabbione | evening * | 08:59 |
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| zul | afternoon | 08:59 |
| mdz | welcome | 08:59 |
| pitti | Hi all | 08:59 |
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| mdz | let's get started | 09:00 |
| mako | mdz: yes | 09:00 |
| mako | mdz: i'm going to catch the first post-meeting train to boston | 09:00 |
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| mdz | mako: great; there is a huge list of MaintainerCandidates and I'm not sure where in the process they are | 09:00 |
| sivang | good evening for us :) | 09:00 |
| mdz | let's skip ahead first, and discuss pitti's language pack item | 09:00 |
| mdz | I believe the question is, which languages should we try to fit onto the standard Ubuntu CD? | 09:00 |
| mako | my train leaves in ~1.75h so we should keep that in mind | 09:01 |
| mdz | sabdfl: we'll need input from you on that | 09:01 |
| mako | mdz: how many can we fit? | 09:01 |
| pitti | For that matter I did some research about the world's most famous languages | 09:01 |
| mdz | are there publicly available statistics for the number of speakers for each language? | 09:01 |
| mdz | mako: unknown; they are differently-sized | 09:01 |
| pitti | http://www2.ignatius.edu/faculty/turner/worldlang.htm | 09:01 |
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| pitti | mdz: ^ | 09:01 |
| mdz | great | 09:01 |
| fabbione | i suggest english, german, french, spanish at least | 09:01 |
| mako | i have some unscientific data thta might be useful here | 09:02 |
| mako | yesterday i built some stats for jane on where we are shipping CDs | 09:02 |
| fabbione | that will cover more than 1 billion possible users | 09:02 |
| sivang | mdz: I'd suggest to put in langpacks of countries in which language has been somewhat a barrier for adoption, taking .IL as an example. | 09:02 |
| mako | fabbione: there are 1billion english speakers | 09:02 |
| mdz | of course, we should probably bias our numbers in favour of languages which are used in areas where free software is very popular | 09:02 |
| pitti | according to above statistics, we need to ship 11 langpacks to cover the most popular langs | 09:02 |
| pitti | mdz: right, that's not contained in the statistics | 09:02 |
| mako | these are the top countries we ship cds to: | 09:02 |
| mdz | for example, German is not in the top ten on some of these lists | 09:02 |
| mako | 1. United States | 09:02 |
| mako | 2. Spain | 09:02 |
| mako | 3. France | 09:02 |
| mako | 4. United Kingdom | 09:02 |
| mako | 5. South Africa | 09:02 |
| pitti | above 11 languages would account for approx. 30 MB | 09:02 |
| mako | 6. Netherlands | 09:03 |
| mdz | but Germany has a lot of free software activity, and I think we should include it | 09:03 |
| fabbione | mako: i mean native speakers. not as second lang | 09:03 |
| mako | 7. Canada | 09:03 |
| mako | 8. Germany | 09:03 |
| sivang | mako: hebrew | 09:03 |
| mako | 9. Chile | 09:03 |
| mako | 10. India | 09:03 |
| mako | 11. Australia | 09:03 |
| mako | 12. Mexico | 09:03 |
| sivang | ah right, but that's according to speakers's number | 09:03 |
| mako | 13. Belgium | 09:03 |
| mako | 14. Russian Federation | 09:03 |
| mako | 15. Argentina | 09:03 |
| mdz | fabbione: agreed, those four should definiteely be on the list | 09:03 |
| mako | IIRC, the 5 un languages are: english, spanish, french, arabic and russian | 09:03 |
| mdz | what languages do we have available for India? | 09:03 |
| pitti | I would also vote for Chinese | 09:03 |
| mako | which are each lingua francas for large numbers of countries | 09:04 |
| fabbione | mdz: if i didn't miscalculate we will cover ~1Bilion users as NATIVE speakers | 09:04 |
| mako | fabbione: that's easy. there are 3/4billion native spanish speakers i thought | 09:04 |
| pitti | fabbione: if we include chinese, we will instantly have 2 Billion | 09:04 |
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| mdz | pitti: how large in total for fabbione's choices? | 09:04 |
| fabbione | pitti++ | 09:04 |
| === pitti calculates | ||
| fabbione | mako: yup | 09:04 |
| mako | i think we need arabic, and chinese | 09:04 |
| sivang | mako: what about hebrew? lack of speakers? ;-) | 09:05 |
| mdz | mako: those two are enormous, I think | 09:05 |
| mako | sivang: basically :-) | 09:05 |
| mako | mdz: arabic is not that big | 09:05 |
| pitti | mdz: 15 MB for english, german, french, spanish | 09:05 |
| mako | mdz: chinese is big i think | 09:05 |
| pitti | however, we should add portugese and chinese in any case | 09:05 |
| mako | arabic is big though | 09:05 |
| sivang | mako: so it's "go and make a customized installer cd" for me ? | 09:05 |
| pitti | then we have 22 MB | 09:05 |
| mako | sivang: yeah.. we'll make it easy to do that | 09:05 |
| smurfix | you'd also need chinese fonts | 09:05 |
| mdz | pitti: 22 total, or 22 + 15? | 09:05 |
| pitti | mdz: 22 total | 09:06 |
| pitti | wait | 09:06 |
| mako | smurfix: if we ship *1* chinese font, it's reasonable | 09:06 |
| mdz | pitti: does that include the dependencies? | 09:06 |
| pitti | 1. Chinese* (937,132,000) 3379218 | 09:06 |
| pitti | 2. Spanish (332,000,000) 3181222 | 09:06 |
| pitti | 3. English (322,000,000) 2654930 | 09:06 |
| pitti | 4. Bengali (189,000,000) 610776 | 09:06 |
| pitti | 5. Hindi/Urdu (182,000,000) 513176 | 09:06 |
| mdz | fonts? | 09:06 |
| pitti | 6. Arabic* (174,950,000) 747176 | 09:06 |
| pitti | 7. Portuguese (170,000,000) 4018494 | 09:06 |
| pitti | 8. Russian (170,000,000) 2217870 | 09:06 |
| pitti | 9. Japanese (125,000,000) 2556682 | 09:06 |
| pitti | 10. German (98,000,000) 3174524 | 09:06 |
| pitti | 11. French* (79,572,000) 3306650 | 09:06 |
| pitti | mdz: no, these are just the translations | 09:06 |
| pitti | above list is the world top ten, middle number: #speakers, right number: langpack size in bytes | 09:06 |
| mako | that's native speakers though | 09:06 |
| mako | there are almost 2billion english speakers | 09:06 |
| sabdfl | mdz: max 15 languages by default i think | 09:06 |
| pitti | yes, native | 09:06 |
| mdz | sivang: it's "the language support should be downloaded from the Internet" for you | 09:06 |
| mako | but they're all non-native speakers | 09:06 |
| fabbione | mako: yes, but we need to think in terms of native speakers here | 09:07 |
| mako | total speakers is a more useful number here | 09:07 |
| pitti | total speakers: | 09:07 |
| mako | fabbione: in terms of "being able to use the cd at all", total is important too | 09:07 |
| pitti | 1. Mandarin Chinese (1.12 billion) | 09:07 |
| pitti | 2. English (480 million) | 09:07 |
| pitti | 3. Spanish (320 million) | 09:07 |
| pitti | 4. Russian (285 million) | 09:07 |
| pitti | 5. French (265 million) | 09:07 |
| pitti | 6. Hindi/Urdu (250 million) | 09:07 |
| pitti | 7. Arabic (221 million) | 09:07 |
| pitti | 8. Portuguese (188 million) | 09:07 |
| pitti | 9. Bengali (185 million) | 09:07 |
| sivang | mdz: err ok, I'll *have* to do the customized installer cd for the "linux doesn't support hebrew enough" people here :) | 09:07 |
| pitti | 10. Japanese (133 million) | 09:07 |
| pitti | 11. German (109 million) | 09:07 |
| mdz | sivang: or the DVD | 09:07 |
| pitti | mako: native/total speakers differs only in the ordering, not in the set of languages | 09:07 |
| mdz | we simply can't fit all languages on a CD | 09:07 |
| sivang | mdz: right. | 09:07 |
| mako | those lists overlap a lot | 09:07 |
| amu | those top 15 are also supported by d-i ? | 09:07 |
| fabbione | mako: yes, but second lang has to be weighed in a different way imho. | 09:07 |
| mako | ok.. the problem with that list is that 6, for example, is one *spoken* language | 09:08 |
| mdz | mako: are our pressed CDs 650M max or 700M? | 09:08 |
| pitti | I think we should focus on native languages | 09:08 |
| mako | but they are encoding differently | 09:08 |
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| mako | mdz: we did 650 last time | 09:08 |
| mako | mdz: for compatibility reasons | 09:08 |
| pitti | Guys: please note that our current warty cds already ship all translations for the ship seed | 09:08 |
| mdz | pitti: but they don't ship the auxiliary packages like fonts and dictionaries | 09:09 |
| pitti | since we stip them, the total sum should indeed be lower if we only ship some langpacks | 09:09 |
| mdz | and we haven't stripped anything yet, right? | 09:09 |
| pitti | mdz: I did not take support packages into account | 09:09 |
| mako | pitti: i think we should do the top 8-9 of that second list | 09:09 |
| mdz | or have we stripped packages built since a certain date? | 09:09 |
| pitti | mdz: I think we shouldn't ship them on the cd | 09:09 |
| sabdfl | can we make language-related tools a dependency of the langpack? | 09:09 |
| pitti | mdz: we already strip for some weeks now | 09:09 |
| sabdfl | so installing a language also gives you fonts and input methods? | 09:09 |
| sivang | sabdfl: this is already been done IIRC | 09:09 |
| mdz | sabdfl: we could, but currently they are separate, and I think this is better | 09:09 |
| pitti | mdz: I think the stripping already removed about 100 MB from our debs | 09:10 |
| mako | mdz: i think we will want to at least have them as suggests | 09:10 |
| mdz | mako, sabdfl: look at it from the other direction | 09:10 |
| pitti | sabdfl: the language-pack-lang package provides translations, language-support-lang provides dependencies | 09:10 |
| mdz | mako, sabdfl: the language support metapackage should depend on the support packages | 09:10 |
| sivang | mako: would be nice, at first I thought the general idea to make language specific tools a depend of the langpacks | 09:10 |
| sabdfl | mdz: doesn't it make sense to add "language support"? if you want the input methods separately you can always add them directly, but in general reading in a lanauge implies wanting to create content in that language? | 09:10 |
| mdz | mako,sabdfl: and the translations | 09:10 |
| mako | pitti: ok, that sounds good | 09:11 |
| sivang | sabdfl: I agree | 09:11 |
| mdz | sabdfl: no, being able to read a language means having it displayed correctly in your web browser, etc. | 09:11 |
| mdz | sabdfl: it does not imply wanting to write documents in openoffice in that language | 09:11 |
| pitti | sabdfl: our current installer tries to install both pack and support | 09:11 |
| mako | sabdfl: actually, in terms of just reading, having a translation without a font is slightly useless as well :) | 09:11 |
| sabdfl | i disagree | 09:11 |
| smurfix | sabdfl: with what? ;-) | 09:11 |
| sivang | mdz: for hebrew enabled desktops, it does ;-) | 09:11 |
| sabdfl | most people who can read a language (and want to use apps in a language) will want to create content in the same language | 09:11 |
| pitti | ack | 09:12 |
| mdz | sivang: you are not listening | 09:12 |
| pitti | sabdfl: the installer will download the dependencies from the network if available | 09:12 |
| mako | sabdfl: there is a difference between viewing a webpage in a language and wanting apps in that language | 09:12 |
| pitti | however, including all dependencies on the CD is just too big | 09:12 |
| sabdfl | we want to simplify this to the point where someone adds Korean, and gets the fonts, the translations and the input methods | 09:12 |
| pitti | translations are okay since we stripped them | 09:12 |
| mdz | sabdfl: we have the capability for both; it's not an issue. the only question is what to put on the CD | 09:12 |
| sabdfl | mako: then add the fonts directly | 09:12 |
| mako | sabdfl: i want to view/write japanese but i don't necessarily want gimp in japanese | 09:12 |
| Kamion | sabdfl: it's useful for the language support to be a separate package because currently language-support-* pulls in stuff not suitable for server installations | 09:12 |
| Kamion | sabdfl: this is already implemented in the installer | 09:12 |
| sabdfl | the thing we want people to apt-get install is the top level metapackage | 09:12 |
| mako | sabdfl: i'm just saying there's a case for having them seperate | 09:12 |
| sivang | mdz: ah ok, noted, thanks. | 09:12 |
| mako | sabdfl: but i'm on your side about this about having the input methods installed on the cd with teh language support | 09:13 |
| smurfix | We have read < create < localize, more or less, IMHO | 09:13 |
| Kamion | sabdfl: if there is a top-level metapackage, then *please* let's keep the separate "translations only" bit, it's very useful | 09:13 |
| sabdfl | agreed, i'm trying to make sure we agree on the end goal, which is to have shot-named language packs which are obvious and easy to find and which do it all | 09:13 |
| mdz | smurfix: exactly | 09:13 |
| mdz | sabdfl: I expect we will create a language chooser tool like gnome-app-install, so it won't be an issue | 09:13 |
| mako | sabdfl: perfect :) | 09:13 |
| sabdfl | Kamion: no problem, i'm just trying to remind folks that we want to focus on the simple get-it-all case from an end-user experience point of view | 09:13 |
| sivang | would it e possible to make read < create == read && create for several langs? | 09:14 |
| pitti | sabdfl: there was a time when the support packages depended on the translation pack | 09:14 |
| mako | mdz: ideal | 09:14 |
| sabdfl | mdz: you mean, like, for bendy+1 ;-) | 09:14 |
| Kamion | sabdfl: well, language-pack-en Recommends: language-support-en; I kind of think it's a frontend issue after that :) | 09:14 |
| pitti | sabdfl: but some folks complained about this, they wanted it separate | 09:14 |
| mdz | sabdfl: no, for hoary+1. it would be very simple to do | 09:14 |
| sabdfl | i'm teasing | 09:14 |
| pitti | so I made it a Recommends | 09:14 |
| sabdfl | a System-> Administration -> Languages tool will be perfect | 09:15 |
| mako | but back to the major question.... | 09:15 |
| mdz | right | 09:15 |
| pitti | the question is: | 09:15 |
| mdz | either way, we need a prioritized list of 10 languages | 09:15 |
| mako | is there space isssues with teh top 8 from that list? | 09:15 |
| mdz | and then we can choose what will fit, in priority order | 09:15 |
| pitti | how much space can we devote for translation apcks? | 09:15 |
| mdz | mako: if we include support tools like dictionaries, yes | 09:15 |
| mdz | (I think so) | 09:15 |
| mako | we will need to work on that list a little bit too | 09:15 |
| mdz | powerpc install CD is 586M currently | 09:15 |
| pitti | if we include support dependencies (OO.o, ffox, etc.) for 10 languages, space will be an issue | 09:16 |
| mako | becuase there is more than one arabic, more than one chinese, and more than urdu/hidi | 09:16 |
| mdz | so we have ~64M | 09:16 |
| mako | but i can help people sort that out | 09:16 |
| mdz | i386 is 510M, leaving 140M | 09:16 |
| mdz | sabdfl: do you think it is important that we standardize the set of languages we will put on the CD, and keep it consistent across releases? | 09:16 |
| fabbione | if we could kill some kernels.... | 09:16 |
| mako | and that sounds removing all of the old translations? | 09:16 |
| mdz | sabdfl: if so, we must be much more conservative, to ensure that we don't exceed our space budget | 09:16 |
| sivang | mako: as far for arabic, people on my country team told me that htere is one "dialect" which is considered official thus resonable to put only it . (jordania) | 09:16 |
| pitti | mdz: please note that we did not yet strip all packages | 09:17 |
| sabdfl | mdz: yes, though with derivatives blooming i expect they will tune that list to their audience | 09:17 |
| sivang | fabbione: hehe | 09:17 |
| mako | sivang: eastern and egyption.. i suspect jordania is eastern | 09:17 |
| mako | sivang: but i can look it up | 09:17 |
| sivang | mako: yes, he told me that noone would get mad if he sees "only" the jordenian one ;-) | 09:17 |
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| amu | egyption is 'real arabic spoken | 09:18 |
| mako | i think if we take the languages spoken by msot people in the world and work down that list, we can defend that | 09:18 |
| mako | we stop when we run out of room | 09:18 |
| sabdfl | pitti: any idea what we save when we do strip main? | 09:18 |
| fabbione | mako: we need to be more conservative | 09:18 |
| mdz | pitti: do you know how much space is occupied by translations in the unstripped packages? | 09:18 |
| pitti | sabdfl: it's already half-stripped | 09:18 |
| mdz | mako: agreed | 09:18 |
| pitti | mdz: hmm, I guess about 80 MB | 09:18 |
| mdz | mako: but we can't go right up to the limit | 09:18 |
| sabdfl | the critical point in the evening, then ;-) | 09:19 |
| mako | fabbione: i can't think of a fairer *or* strategic way to do it | 09:19 |
| mdz | mako: because then we'll need to drop a language or two in the next release, and as we grow | 09:19 |
| fabbione | mako: otherwise we might end up in having to remove languages in next releases | 09:19 |
| pitti | mdz: but that is really a coarse guesstimation | 09:19 |
| pitti | mdz: I stripped 60 MB of translations for hoary/main | 09:19 |
| pitti | (zipped) | 09:19 |
| mako | fabbione: we're not going to nee to be removing languages spoken by 300million+ people :) | 09:19 |
| sabdfl | the other challenge is that the number of strings will grow, and the translations will get more complete | 09:19 |
| fabbione | mako: i agree, but we can't add italian in hoary and remove it for BENDY | 09:20 |
| pitti | right, we should leave some space to account for that | 09:20 |
| fabbione | mako: it will look really unprofessional | 09:20 |
| KragenSitaker | wikipedia links to a language frequency list that has ten or fifteen versions of arabic listed as separate languages | 09:20 |
| mako | fabbione: i don't think the numbers on that list are going to fluctuate too much along *our* timeframe | 09:20 |
| KragenSitaker | but lists english as one | 09:20 |
| sabdfl | hmm... can we leave the installer unstripped please? | 09:20 |
| mdz | sabdfl: we don't have a choice | 09:20 |
| fabbione | mako: the list of langs no, but the size of packages on cd yes | 09:20 |
| pitti | sabdfl: it is unstripped | 09:20 |
| mdz | sabdfl: it cannot be stripped | 09:20 |
| sabdfl | good :-) | 09:20 |
| mako | fabbione: right, so we are conservative | 09:20 |
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| mako | so is a good goal to get definite numbers on the sizes and then just work down the list in terms of most spoken languages? | 09:21 |
| fabbione | mako: if we need to stick to rule #666 that force us to ship always one CD: yes | 09:21 |
| mdz | mako: that's my feeling | 09:21 |
| mdz | mako: but we need to know when to stop, as well | 09:21 |
| sivang | seems that most reasonable | 09:21 |
| mako | up to a conservative cut-off | 09:21 |
| pitti | I thought we wanted to take into account in which countries Ubuntu is used most likely? | 09:21 |
| mako | i mean, then we can't be accused of playing favorites, etc | 09:21 |
| sabdfl | pitti: would be useful to know if any of the languages we consider translating is very poorly translated, because that is a risk of rapid translation and hence expansion | 09:21 |
| mdz | pitti: as mako says, it's easier to defend by simple popularity of the language | 09:22 |
| pitti | sabdfl: that can be seen at the size of the langpack | 09:22 |
| KragenSitaker | pitti: good point --- portuguese is probably much more important than raw numbers of speakers would suggest | 09:22 |
| pitti | sabdfl: a good translation has about 3 to 4 MB | 09:22 |
| sabdfl | Kamion: how hard would it be to prompt for langpack download based on region as well? | 09:22 |
| mako | pitti: those numbers work out pretty well.. we may not do, say, a dutch translations on the cd even though we send lots of cds there but i think we'll live | 09:22 |
| mdz | sabdfl: do you think the concerns about favoritism are justified? | 09:22 |
| pitti | hmm, ok | 09:22 |
| Kamion | sabdfl: we can select by region certainly; didn't think you'd want a prompt though | 09:22 |
| mdz | sabdfl: we would not have hard data to work with for that angle | 09:23 |
| sabdfl | mdz: if we cover each major language group, and have a rationale that is published, we are fine | 09:23 |
| pitti | but If I just seed the top 5, we neither have French nor German :-) | 09:23 |
| sabdfl | kamion: only if they want to download updates | 09:23 |
| Kamion | sabdfl: you mean something like "if you selected Switzerland, then include French, German, and Italian"? | 09:23 |
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| sabdfl | do we have a multiselect widget in debconf? | 09:24 |
| sabdfl | present a list and let them select all desired languages? | 09:24 |
| Kamion | sabdfl: I'd be a bit concerned about geopolitics, but if you like :) | 09:24 |
| Keybuk | can't we do it automatically if they select to update from the net | 09:24 |
| sivang | why not shipping each language per word region, and donwload specifics over the net? | 09:24 |
| Kamion | sabdfl: yes, and that is done in expert mode | 09:24 |
| sivang | (hmm, not sure if this is even better..) | 09:24 |
| Kamion | Keybuk: do what? | 09:24 |
| Thom_Holwerda | 1. Chinese 2. English 3. Hindi 4. Spanish 5. Russian | 09:25 |
| Keybuk | download interesting language packs based on their locale | 09:25 |
| Thom_Holwerda | most popluar languages | 09:25 |
| sabdfl | we can get languages-by-country from rosetta easily enough, or even from the libc translations table carlos loves playing with | 09:25 |
| Kamion | Template: localechooser/supported-locales | 09:25 |
| Kamion | Type: multiselect | 09:25 |
| Kamion | Choices: ${LOCALELIST} | 09:25 |
| Kamion | _Description: Choose other locales to be supported: | 09:25 |
| Kamion | You may choose additional locales to be installed from this list. | 09:25 |
| Kamion | sabdfl: the installer already uses the SUPPORTED table from libc | 09:25 |
| sabdfl | Kamion: i love it when you're so far ahead of me ;-) | 09:25 |
| Kamion | sabdfl: (I had to do it for kickstart, you see :-)) | 09:25 |
| sabdfl | so those locale's map directly to langpacks? | 09:26 |
| Kamion | many-to-one mapping | 09:26 |
| mako | wow. nice :) | 09:26 |
| KragenSitaker | Thom_Holwerda: is that including Urdu under Hindi or not? They use different character sets | 09:26 |
| sabdfl | is the question ugly or does it look slick and easy to answer? | 09:26 |
| Kamion | it's kind of overkill and the UI isn't great, but it'll do for now considering it's an expert mode thing | 09:26 |
| KragenSitaker | also, what's "Chinese"? | 09:26 |
| mako | KragenSitaker: we know | 09:26 |
| Thom_Holwerda | KragenSitaker: i dont know | 09:26 |
| mako | KragenSitaker: right, i brought this up a little bit | 09:26 |
| Kamion | sabdfl: it's expert mode only, which is ugly in general; do you want it non-expert-mode? | 09:27 |
| KragenSitaker | mako: I know *you* know --- I'm just pointing out that Thom may not have been the original compiler of the language list | 09:27 |
| pitti | KragenSitaker: Mandarin, mostly | 09:27 |
| Thom_Holwerda | i am indeed not, took it from an atlas | 09:27 |
| sabdfl | mdz, what do you think about prompting for langpack download based on location if they have chosen to download updates and we know they have a net connection? | 09:27 |
| mako | pitti: well madarin or catonese is not important because the written language is the same | 09:27 |
| Kamion | at the moment it's a big list starting "aa_DJ, aa_ER, aa_ER@saaho, aa_ET, af_ZA, ..." | 09:27 |
| mdz | sabdfl: https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=6390 | 09:27 |
| sabdfl | can we hint at the size of the download involved? | 09:28 |
| Thom_Holwerda | hindi does not include urdu | 09:28 |
| pitti | ^ erm, download is already attempted right now?? | 09:28 |
| KragenSitaker | wow | 09:28 |
| Thom_Holwerda | urdu is 13th | 09:28 |
| sabdfl | kamion: that's what you prompt on? aa_DJ? "af_ZA"? or "Afrikaans"? | 09:28 |
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| sivang | Kamion: would be good to have it non export, I already have people complaining over too many languge settings that are "expert" moded. | 09:28 |
| mako | Thom_Holwerda: we know.. but there are an order of magnitude more people who can read hindi versus urdu | 09:28 |
| Kamion | Keybuk: we already download the language pack that matches their selected language; for some countries I'd be worried about the download being huge if you try everything | 09:29 |
| Kamion | sivang: non-expert-mode questions require Mark's approval in general | 09:29 |
| Kamion | sivang: and they'd better be pretty | 09:29 |
| mdz | sabdfl: oo.o localization alone for Chinese is ~4M | 09:29 |
| sivang | Kamion: ah oops ok. | 09:29 |
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| Kamion | sabdfl: at the moment; it was a quick hack to let me implement the 'langsupport' keyword in Kickstart | 09:29 |
| pitti | sabdfl: I think installing one langpack by default (without further prompting) is a good choice for 98% of the desktops | 09:30 |
| Kamion | translating to more friendly text would be possible but I'll need to figure out how to suck in the translations automatically from iso-codes/localechooser/whatever and probably how to do much cleverer sorting | 09:30 |
| pitti | mdz: let alone the help packages... | 09:30 |
| sabdfl | pitti: but which langpack? | 09:31 |
| Kamion | sabdfl: I'm not sure that this question would pass the needed-for-nearly-everyone test whichever way you slice it | 09:31 |
| pitti | sabdfl: the langpack matching the users's selected language | 09:31 |
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| mdz | I think we're straying from the point here; do we have a consensus on methodology for selecting which languages we should ship on the CD? | 09:31 |
| Kamion | sabdfl: that's easy, the one matching the installation language they suggested; that's what we do | 09:31 |
| pitti | sabdfl: as it's done in the current daily CDs | 09:31 |
| sabdfl | pitti: ok, that's best | 09:31 |
| sivang | pitti: agreed | 09:31 |
| mako | mdz: you have my blessing :) | 09:32 |
| pitti | proposed method: start adding from the top until 30 MB is reached? | 09:32 |
| fabbione | 20MB | 09:32 |
| pitti | then we have enought space even on ppc for the future | 09:32 |
| fabbione | adding later is easy | 09:32 |
| fabbione | removing no | 09:32 |
| pitti | we still gain some space through stripping | 09:32 |
| mdz | with 20M I do not think we will get Chinese | 09:32 |
| sabdfl | let's compile a list of top 10 languages spoken, and top 10 countries Ubuntu is requested in shipit, and try to cover all of those | 09:32 |
| mako | mdz: we will get chinese | 09:32 |
| pitti | ok, 20 MB is fine, too | 09:33 |
| mdz | sabdfl: ok, we have both of those lists | 09:33 |
| Kamion | sabdfl: we can assume that the selected installation language is understood by the user, and I tend to feel that it's better to push off the task of installing further language packs to a desktop application, considering that we've provided for automatic installations with multiple language packs | 09:33 |
| mako | mdz: and english, and french | 09:33 |
| fabbione | pitti: that will happen only if we upload the packages that have been unstripped | 09:33 |
| mdz | mako: not with support | 09:33 |
| mako | mdz: and probably spanish | 09:33 |
| mako | mdz: not if we could oo.o support | 09:33 |
| mdz | mako: oo.o localization, dictionaries, etc. | 09:33 |
| pitti | fabbione: right, we wil | 09:33 |
| sabdfl | kamion: agreed | 09:33 |
| mako | mdz: then we don't include that | 09:33 |
| mdz | mako: sabdfl insists that we do | 09:33 |
| sabdfl | and we can make that tool pretty smart, showing just the list of languages recommended for your IP address location, for example | 09:33 |
| Hwolf | On localisation: I'd like to be able to hide those fonts that I can't read from my ooo fonts list. Otherwise i'll be scrolling through a lot of chinese/hebrew etc. | 09:34 |
| fabbione | sabdfl: that doesn't work pretty well when you are behind some retarted networks | 09:34 |
| Thom_Holwerda | as long as other langueges from ouytside your IP can be selected as well :) | 09:34 |
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| fabbione | retarded even | 09:34 |
| mako | if thethe choice comes down to chinese everything support or no other languages, i don't think it's much of a choice | 09:34 |
| sivang | Hwolf: heh | 09:34 |
| KragenSitaker | you are in 10.0.0.x. apparently you are on ARPAnet. would you like to use English? | 09:34 |
| sabdfl | fabbione: we'd use combination of current selected timezone/locale and ip address, for example | 09:34 |
| Hwolf | sivang: it's already annoying, imho | 09:35 |
| mdz | let's try not to stray too far into the hypothetical; we have an immediate issue to deal with for Hoary | 09:35 |
| Thom_Holwerda | sabdfl: im dutch but i always use english-- so that may become annoying | 09:35 |
| sivang | Hwolf: oh :-/ | 09:35 |
| fabbione | sabdfl: imho timezone/locale is the best. I would definetely leave the IP out | 09:35 |
| sabdfl | Thom: I think english will always be installed. Kamion? | 09:35 |
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| fabbione | sabdfl: it has too many implications and exceptions to provide a good choise | 09:35 |
| pitti | is there any real opposition to "start adding from the top until 20 MB is reached" | 09:35 |
| fabbione | sabdfl: + you need a mapping file that is constantly up2date for that | 09:35 |
| sabdfl | fabbione: we have one, in rosetta | 09:36 |
| fabbione | sabdfl: Ip address -> location? | 09:36 |
| sabdfl | mdz: i think you have agreement | 09:36 |
| mako | pitti: i haven't heard anyone | 09:36 |
| smurfix | if OOo is included in that size limit, that doesn't seem enough | 09:36 |
| mdz | if pitti's question is answered, let's proceed with the agenda | 09:36 |
| mako | pitti: silence is consent :) | 09:36 |
| pitti | ok :-) | 09:36 |
| pitti | but I don't seed support dependencies | 09:36 |
| pitti | just translations | 09:37 |
| Hwolf | sivang: so if we include all sorts of non-english non-standard fonts, could they be uninstallable without breaking ubuntu-base/desktop? | 09:37 |
| pitti | dependencies can be downloaded | 09:37 |
| mdz | pitti: there is clearly much more to discuss about language support; if you could summarize the unresolved questions for ubuntu-devel@lists and start a discussion there, that would be great | 09:37 |
| mdz | pitti: we have raised some new issues here I think | 09:37 |
| pitti | ok, I will read scrollback and summarize | 09:37 |
| mako | pitti: if it's impossible to fit, it's impossible to fit | 09:37 |
| mdz | thanks | 09:37 |
| mako | pitti: awesome.. i will jump into that discussion | 09:37 |
| pitti | mako: obviously :-) | 09:37 |
| mdz | next agenda item is new maintainer candidates | 09:37 |
| sivang | Hwolf: well, they should...I'll try over here and let you know | 09:38 |
| mdz | there is a long list on MaintainerCandidates | 09:38 |
| mdz | but some of these people I know have already been processed | 09:38 |
| Hwolf | sivang, thanks. | 09:38 |
| sabdfl | we now have at least a spec for managing this in launchpad | 09:38 |
| sabdfl | due to be done for hoary | 09:38 |
| mdz | if you're already an Ubuntu maintainer, please remove yourself from https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MaintainerCandidates | 09:38 |
| ogra | we should move them to the MOTU page | 09:38 |
| mako | a number of them have been processed | 09:38 |
| mdz | is there anyone present who is seeking TB approval for maintainership? | 09:39 |
| mako | T-Bone, sivang, ogra are handled IIRC | 09:39 |
| T-Bone | mako: ? I'm a maintainer since sabdfl appointed me in last november. | 09:39 |
| mako | T-Bone: yes | 09:40 |
| ogra | mako: riddell, crimsun, dholbach, Treenaks, ajmitch, tseng | 09:40 |
| ogra | zul | 09:40 |
| ogra | sladen | 09:40 |
| mako | so.. that leaves: Saravanan Raju | 09:40 |
| ogra | whom did i forget ? | 09:40 |
| mako | y'know.. a lot of these people were applying for membership | 09:41 |
| mako | but it was before we had a membership | 09:41 |
| mako | i know for a fact that several of these people would like to be a member for not a maintainer | 09:41 |
| mdz | so I take it that there is no TB business regarding maintainer candidates today? | 09:41 |
| mdz | ok, then | 09:41 |
| mdz | any other business? | 09:41 |
| mako | we need to clean up that page | 09:42 |
| mako | badly | 09:42 |
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| mdz | mako,ogra: can one of you take care of cleaning up MaintainerCandidates? | 09:42 |
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| mako | it's a multi-person job | 09:42 |
| crimsun_ | I'll help with that, mdz/mako/ogra. | 09:42 |
| ogra | i think every motu can move his page to MOTU | 09:42 |
| crimsun_ | will sort out in u-d and u-m | 09:42 |
| mako | people that we don't know what to do, we need to contact them about the membership/maintainership process | 09:42 |
| ogra | its just reparenting | 09:42 |
| mako | crimsun_: cool | 09:42 |
| mdz | ok, thanks | 09:42 |
| sivang | crimsun_: what is u-m ? | 09:42 |
| crimsun_ | sivang: ubuntu-motu | 09:43 |
| mako | if there is time, we can talk right after the meeting | 09:43 |
| sivang | crimsun_: ah -) | 09:43 |
| crimsun_ | (for administrative issues only) | 09:43 |
| mako | crimsun_, ogra: cool? | 09:43 |
| mdz | last call for other TB business | 09:43 |
| crimsun_ | mako: yep | 09:43 |
| mako | oh wait.. there will definitely be time then | 09:43 |
| ogra | mako: ok | 09:43 |
| sivang | mako: you need to run no? | 09:43 |
| mdz | meeting adjourned. Thanks, everyone | 09:43 |
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| Kamion | sabdfl: sorry, I was busy with #ubuntu-devel stuff; English will not always be installed at the moment (the C locale will, though ...), but I can make that a special case if you like | 09:44 |
| mako | sivang: nah.. train isn't for a couple hours | 09:44 |
| sivang | mako: ok | 09:45 |
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| crimsun_ | mako: / ogra: most of those names/links are no longer "candidates" per se and have already been approved, so we should just delete them from that wiki page. | 09:45 |
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| ogra | crimsun_: let them reparent it themselves to the respective group member/motu | 09:46 |
| tseng | can I be my own parent? | 09:46 |
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| tseng | btw, perhaps we should work this out later | 09:47 |
| ogra | tseng: MTU is your parent ; | 09:47 |
| crimsun_ | ogra: ok. Shall we ping them (on irc and/or via email) to alert them? | 09:47 |
| mako | tseng: i don't zwiki supports taht, YET | 09:47 |
| ogra | MOTU even | 09:47 |
| mako | i'll go through and delete teh folks i know are already members/etc | 09:47 |
| sabdfl | kamion: thanks. pitti, mdz, how about making English a special case always-install? | 09:47 |
| fabbione | sabdfl++ | 09:48 |
| pitti | sabdfl: it already is | 09:48 |
| sivang | I second that,we must have english | 09:48 |
| sabdfl | mako: perhaps leave people who were declined till we have further working experience together? | 09:48 |
| pitti | sabdfl: IIRC en is in shipped | 09:48 |
| sabdfl | with a note | 09:48 |
| Kamion | we must have C; what's the use case for English? | 09:48 |
| pitti | Kamion: or is it? | 09:48 |
| Kamion | pitti: it is | 09:48 |
| sabdfl | what's the difference? | 09:48 |
| Kamion | C is what's used as the source for translations | 09:49 |
| smurfix | Kamion: People who write their C in $LANGUAGE and then ship an English translation may be rare but they're not nonexistent | 09:49 |
| pitti | ~/ubuntu/seeds-hoary$ grep language-pack-en * | 09:49 |
| pitti | ship: * language-pack-en | 09:49 |
| pitti | ship: * language-pack-en-update | 09:49 |
| Kamion | English may be translated (consider "Trash" -> "Wastebasket" for en_GB, for instance) | 09:49 |
| mako | sabdfl: right.. the first pass just removed people who are already maintainers | 09:49 |
| pitti | so it should always be installed | 09:49 |
| mako | crimsun_, ogra can you guys take a look at the list now | 09:49 |
| Kamion | smurfix: I fully agree that English should be installed if you've selected English as your installation language. What I'm questioning is the value of installing it for everyone on the planet. | 09:49 |
| mako | is there anyone i missed? | 09:49 |
| Kamion | pitti: ship is not always installed; that's the very definition of ship | 09:50 |
| Kamion | desktop is always installed; ship goes on the CD and is conditionally installed | 09:50 |
| pitti | argh, I mixed that up with desktop | 09:50 |
| pitti | right | 09:50 |
| smurfix | Hmm, you're right, I was thinking of having English as fallback instead of $LANGUAGE, but that's not how it works | 09:50 |
| pitti | but why would my mother want English? | 09:50 |
| Kamion | sabdfl: C isn't UTF-8, though (by definition) | 09:50 |
| ogra | mako: we're talking about MaintainerCandidates ? | 09:50 |
| Kamion | but "English" fallbacks will be to C | 09:50 |
| mako | ogra: yes | 09:51 |
| ogra | mako: i dont see a change... | 09:51 |
| crimsun_ | mako: Jonathan Riddell, Paul Sladen, and Chuck Short have all been approved | 09:51 |
| ogra | mako: ah.... mozilla cache.... weird | 09:51 |
| === mako remembers approving at least two of them | ||
| pitti | Kamion, sabdfl, mdz: would you be opposed to removing ttf-indic and ttf-malayan from ubuntu-desktop and isntead make them language-support dependencies? | 09:52 |
| mako | ok.. new version w/o those three | 09:52 |
| sabdfl | pitti: fine by me | 09:52 |
| Kamion | didn't we want to have at least one font that gave coverage of everything, regardless of l-s-* | 09:52 |
| mako | is there anyone on that list that you know wants to be a maintainer/motu? | 09:52 |
| Kamion | ? | 09:52 |
| Kamion | i.e. installed by default | 09:52 |
| sabdfl | hmm... good point kamion | 09:52 |
| Kamion | I thought that was one of the things we discussed; l-s-* was to provide better more specialist coverage | 09:52 |
| ogra | mako: yup | 09:53 |
| mako | ogra: who? | 09:53 |
| mako | i think we should email the rest of them and tell them about the new procedure and ask them if they really want membership, etc | 09:53 |
| Kamion | so if ttf-{indic,malayan} are just supplementary things then I'd say removing them is fine | 09:53 |
| ogra | mako: wait, i have to dig my mails.... i got at least 3 motu candidates last week... | 09:53 |
| sabdfl | pitti: changing my mind to agree with kamion, lets try to retain max font coverage | 09:53 |
| pitti | sabdfl: ok | 09:53 |
| ogra | mako: most want to be in the MOTU team.... we first need to review theitr packages.... | 09:54 |
| pitti | sabdfl: ok, so what about "english always be installed"? | 09:54 |
| pitti | sabdfl: it will be on the cd, so all English users will have it automatically isntalled anyway | 09:54 |
| mako | ogra: can you then split that page into two lists? | 09:54 |
| pitti | sabdfl: but for non-English folks it seems to be kind of a waste | 09:55 |
| Kamion | (it's a trivial base-config change either way, BTW) | 09:55 |
| mako | ogra: people that you know want to be MOTU.. and ones who you don't know about | 09:55 |
| pitti | the English translations won't be used even if they are installed | 09:55 |
| ogra | mako: good idea....i'll do it.. | 09:55 |
| mako | ogra: because if they are not going through pre-hoary they need to go through membership | 09:55 |
| Kamion | although I guess we wouldn't want to force l-p-en for automatic installs if they didn't select English | 09:55 |
| mako | ogra: when you are doing, let me know | 09:55 |
| mako | ogra: i will go through the link and mail all of the people and explain the change in policy and ask them waht they want :) | 09:56 |
| ogra | mako: during the next hour.... | 09:56 |
| mdz | pitti: this is one of the things I would like to discuss on the mailing list :-) | 09:56 |
| Hwolf | Kamion, sadfl, mdz, pitti: the same goes for a major bunch of fonts, from ttf-arabic to ttf-korean | 09:56 |
| ogra | mako: yup..., but that will drown us in package reviews.... | 09:56 |
| mako | ogra: ok.. well i might run off to a train soon so an email makes sure i don't miss it | 09:57 |
| pitti | Kamion: right, it just makes no sense | 09:57 |
| mdz | pitti: we have at least three major use cases | 09:57 |
| ogra | mako: which is quite time consuming.... | 09:57 |
| mdz | pitti: reading content in a language, writing content in a language, and using programs translated into a lanugage | 09:57 |
| mdz | language | 09:57 |
| mako | ogra: i can help if you need it | 09:57 |
| ogra | mako: ok, i'll mail you....including a list of the ppls mail adresses... | 09:57 |
| mako | ogra: that's not necesasry. i can dig those up | 09:57 |
| sabdfl | i think anyone who is wanting to se programs in a language is in the content-creation realm too | 09:57 |
| ogra | mako: k | 09:58 |
| mako | ogra: just a list of the people you know about in regards to motu and those you don't know about it | 09:58 |
| sabdfl | which simplifies it to two use cases | 09:58 |
| mdz | sabdfl: <smurfix> We have read < create < localize, more or less, IMHO | 09:58 |
| mako | ogra: i can lbdb the email addresses | 09:58 |
| mdz | I think that's fairly accurate | 09:58 |
| mdz | they're concentric | 09:58 |
| mdz | it might be worthwhile to represent that in the language support packages | 09:59 |
| sabdfl | we want read everywhere (fonts only) in desktop, then an easy install to get localise+create | 09:59 |
| sabdfl | if you want localise | create then you need to dig a little | 09:59 |
| sabdfl | so will pitti initiate a discussion on -devel about english as a default-install option? | 10:00 |
| smurfix | sabdfl: most people wouldn't want more than one localizations -- what for? | 10:00 |
| mdz | pitti will initiate a discussion based on the transcript of the meeting + post-discussion | 10:00 |
| ogra | mako: hmm, this page has the name MaintainerCandidates ... should we probably make a MemberCandidates one ? | 10:00 |
| pitti | sabdfl: yes, I will put that into the mail | 10:01 |
| smurfix | I'm not going to switch my OOo to Japanese menus just because I'm writing a letter to my friend in Tokio. | 10:01 |
| sabdfl | smurfix: need a language for a sysadmin to fall back to | 10:01 |
| mdz | this should include at least: installer issues (language selection, availability of language packs during the installation process, etc.), language support metapackage organization (read/create/localize), whether we need additional fonts for better desktop coverage... | 10:01 |
| mdz | whether English should always be installed | 10:02 |
| ogra | mako: regarding the title and the text at top, i would expect everybody there going for maintainer... even if i dont know them... | 10:02 |
| mako | ogra: that's just not the case | 10:04 |
| mako | ogra: because that page is old | 10:04 |
| ogra | ah, ok... | 10:04 |
| mako | ogra: i.e., beofre membership and maintainership were different things | 10:04 |
| mako | i know a few people on that list really want membership, not maintainership | 10:05 |
| ogra | ok | 10:05 |
| mako | so we should ask people.. at least the folks at the top of the list | 10:05 |
| ogra | i just was a bit distraced by the introduction :) | 10:06 |
| sabdfl | folks, i need to head home unfortunately | 10:06 |
| sabdfl | good night all | 10:06 |
| ogra | night sabdfl | 10:06 |
| pitti | night sabdfl | 10:06 |
| sivang | night sabdfl | 10:07 |
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| ogra | mako: mail sent | 10:30 |
| mako | ogra: awesome | 10:39 |
| ogra | mako: and i just recieved a mail of a new one ;) | 10:40 |
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| mako | ogra: well that's fine.. i'm not very worried about accounts moving forward | 10:42 |
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