[05:00] <sivang> ah yay, just noticed the time has changed for the meeting :)
[05:00] <Simira> has it?
[05:00] <Simira> to when?
[05:01] <Kamion> "Tuesday 15 February 2005 20:00 UTC: Technical Board"
[05:01] <pitti> 20:00 UTC
[05:01] <Simira> oh, the technical board, yes
[05:01] <zul> it was changed a while ago
[05:02] <Simira> but now is the Council meeting, right?
[05:02] <Kamion> no, that's next week
[05:02] <Kamion> the topic is confusingly ordered
[05:02] <zul> no today is the 15th
[05:02] <Simira> doh...
[05:02] <Simira> I've been SO sure it's this week. Arg!
[08:13] <dholbach> ok... i'm off - have a nice evening everyone
[08:36] <zul> there is a meeting soon isnt there?
[08:36] <fabbione> yup
[08:36] <haggai> yes, 25 min
[08:36] <fabbione> 24 minutes
[08:43] <mako> mvo won't make it either
[08:43] <mako> at least not at first
[08:58] <mdz> mako: are you going to be here for the meeting?
[08:59] <fabbione> evening *
[08:59] <zul> afternoon
[08:59] <mdz> welcome
[08:59] <pitti> Hi all
[09:00] <mdz> let's get started
[09:00] <mako> mdz: yes
[09:00] <mako> mdz: i'm going to catch the first post-meeting train to boston
[09:00] <mdz> mako: great; there is a huge list of MaintainerCandidates and I'm not sure where in the process they are
[09:00] <sivang> good evening for us :)
[09:00] <mdz> let's skip ahead first, and discuss pitti's language pack item
[09:00] <mdz> I believe the question is, which languages should we try to fit onto the standard Ubuntu CD?
[09:01] <mako> my train leaves in ~1.75h so we should keep that in mind
[09:01] <mdz> sabdfl: we'll need input from you on that
[09:01] <mako> mdz: how many can we fit?
[09:01] <pitti> For that matter I did some research about the world's most famous languages
[09:01] <mdz> are there publicly available statistics for the number of speakers for each language?
[09:01] <mdz> mako: unknown; they are differently-sized
[09:01] <pitti> http://www2.ignatius.edu/faculty/turner/worldlang.htm
[09:01] <pitti> mdz: ^
[09:01] <mdz> great
[09:01] <fabbione> i suggest english, german, french, spanish at least
[09:02] <mako> i have some unscientific data thta might be useful here
[09:02] <mako> yesterday i built some stats for jane on where we are shipping CDs
[09:02] <fabbione> that will cover more than 1 billion possible users
[09:02] <sivang> mdz: I'd suggest to put in langpacks of countries in which language has been somewhat a barrier for adoption, taking .IL as an example.
[09:02] <mako> fabbione: there are 1billion english speakers
[09:02] <mdz> of course, we should probably bias our numbers in favour of languages which are used in areas where free software is very popular
[09:02] <pitti> according to above statistics, we need to ship 11 langpacks to cover the most popular langs
[09:02] <pitti> mdz: right, that's not contained in the statistics
[09:02] <mako> these are the top countries we ship cds to:
[09:02] <mdz> for example, German is not in the top ten on some of these lists
[09:02] <mako> 1. United States
[09:02] <mako> 2. Spain
[09:02] <mako> 3. France
[09:02] <mako> 4. United Kingdom
[09:02] <mako> 5. South Africa
[09:02] <pitti> above 11 languages would account for approx. 30 MB
[09:03] <mako> 6. Netherlands
[09:03] <mdz> but Germany has a lot of free software activity, and I think we should include it
[09:03] <fabbione> mako: i mean native speakers. not as second lang
[09:03] <mako> 7. Canada
[09:03] <mako> 8. Germany
[09:03] <sivang> mako: hebrew
[09:03] <mako> 9. Chile
[09:03] <mako> 10. India
[09:03] <mako> 11. Australia
[09:03] <mako> 12. Mexico
[09:03] <sivang> ah right, but that's according to speakers's number
[09:03] <mako> 13. Belgium
[09:03] <mako> 14. Russian Federation
[09:03] <mako> 15. Argentina
[09:03] <mdz> fabbione: agreed, those four should definiteely be on the list
[09:03] <mako> IIRC, the 5 un languages are: english, spanish, french, arabic and russian
[09:03] <mdz> what languages do we have available for India?
[09:03] <pitti> I would also vote for Chinese
[09:04] <mako> which are each lingua francas for large numbers of countries
[09:04] <fabbione> mdz: if i didn't miscalculate we will cover ~1Bilion users as NATIVE speakers
[09:04] <mako> fabbione: that's easy. there are 3/4billion native spanish speakers i thought
[09:04] <pitti> fabbione: if we include chinese, we will instantly have 2 Billion
[09:04] <mdz> pitti: how large in total for fabbione's choices?
[09:04] <fabbione> pitti++
[09:04] <fabbione> mako: yup
[09:04] <mako> i think we need arabic, and chinese
[09:05] <sivang> mako: what about hebrew? lack of speakers? ;-)
[09:05] <mdz> mako: those two are enormous, I think
[09:05] <mako> sivang: basically :-)
[09:05] <mako> mdz: arabic is not that big
[09:05] <pitti> mdz: 15 MB for english, german, french, spanish
[09:05] <mako> mdz: chinese is big i think
[09:05] <pitti> however, we should add portugese and chinese in any case
[09:05] <mako> arabic is big though
[09:05] <sivang> mako: so it's "go and make a customized installer cd" for me ?
[09:05] <pitti> then we have 22 MB
[09:05] <mako> sivang: yeah.. we'll make it easy to do that
[09:05] <smurfix> you'd also need chinese fonts
[09:05] <mdz> pitti: 22 total, or 22 + 15?
[09:06] <pitti> mdz: 22 total
[09:06] <pitti> wait
[09:06] <mako> smurfix: if we ship *1* chinese font, it's reasonable
[09:06] <mdz> pitti: does that include the dependencies?
[09:06] <pitti>    1. Chinese* (937,132,000)            3379218
[09:06] <pitti>    2. Spanish (332,000,000)             3181222
[09:06] <pitti>    3. English (322,000,000)             2654930
[09:06] <pitti>    4. Bengali (189,000,000)              610776
[09:06] <pitti>    5. Hindi/Urdu (182,000,000)           513176
[09:06] <mdz> fonts?
[09:06] <pitti>    6. Arabic* (174,950,000)              747176
[09:06] <pitti>    7. Portuguese (170,000,000)          4018494
[09:06] <pitti>    8. Russian (170,000,000)             2217870
[09:06] <pitti>    9. Japanese (125,000,000)            2556682
[09:06] <pitti>   10. German (98,000,000)               3174524
[09:06] <pitti>   11. French* (79,572,000)              3306650
[09:06] <pitti> mdz: no, these are just the translations
[09:06] <pitti> above list is the world top ten, middle number: #speakers, right number: langpack size in bytes
[09:06] <mako> that's native speakers though
[09:06] <mako> there are almost 2billion english speakers
[09:06] <sabdfl> mdz: max 15 languages by default i think
[09:06] <pitti> yes, native
[09:06] <mdz> sivang: it's "the language support should be downloaded from the Internet" for you
[09:06] <mako> but they're all non-native speakers
[09:07] <fabbione> mako: yes, but we need to think in terms of native speakers here
[09:07] <mako> total speakers is a more useful number here
[09:07] <pitti> total speakers:
[09:07] <mako> fabbione: in terms of "being able to use the cd at all", total is important too
[09:07] <pitti>    1.  Mandarin Chinese (1.12 billion)
[09:07] <pitti>    2. English (480 million)
[09:07] <pitti>    3. Spanish (320 million)
[09:07] <pitti>    4. Russian (285 million)
[09:07] <pitti>    5. French (265 million)
[09:07] <pitti>    6. Hindi/Urdu (250 million)
[09:07] <pitti>    7. Arabic (221 million)
[09:07] <pitti>    8. Portuguese (188 million)
[09:07] <pitti>    9. Bengali (185 million)
[09:07] <sivang> mdz: err ok, I'll *have* to do the customized installer cd for the "linux doesn't support hebrew enough" people here :)
[09:07] <pitti>   10. Japanese (133 million)
[09:07] <pitti>   11. German (109 million)
[09:07] <mdz> sivang: or the DVD
[09:07] <pitti> mako: native/total speakers differs only in the ordering, not in the set of languages
[09:07] <mdz> we simply can't fit all languages on a CD
[09:07] <sivang> mdz: right.
[09:07] <mako> those lists overlap a lot
[09:07] <amu> those top 15 are also supported by d-i ? 
[09:07] <fabbione> mako: yes, but second lang has to be weighed in a different way imho.
[09:08] <mako> ok.. the problem with that list is that 6, for example, is one *spoken* language
[09:08] <mdz> mako: are our pressed CDs 650M max or 700M?
[09:08] <pitti> I think we should focus on native languages
[09:08] <mako> but they are encoding differently
[09:08] <mako> mdz: we did 650 last time
[09:08] <mako> mdz: for compatibility reasons
[09:08] <pitti> Guys: please note that our current warty cds already ship all translations for the ship seed
[09:09] <mdz> pitti: but they don't ship the auxiliary packages like fonts and dictionaries
[09:09] <pitti> since we stip them, the total sum should indeed be lower if we only ship some langpacks
[09:09] <mdz> and we haven't stripped anything yet, right?
[09:09] <pitti> mdz: I did not take support packages into account
[09:09] <mako> pitti: i think we should do the top 8-9 of that second list
[09:09] <mdz> or have we stripped packages built since a certain date?
[09:09] <pitti> mdz: I think we shouldn't ship them on the cd
[09:09] <sabdfl> can we make language-related tools a dependency of the langpack?
[09:09] <pitti> mdz: we already strip for some weeks now
[09:09] <sabdfl> so installing a language also gives you fonts and input methods?
[09:09] <sivang> sabdfl: this is already been done IIRC
[09:09] <mdz> sabdfl: we could, but currently they are separate, and I think this is better
[09:10] <pitti> mdz: I think the stripping already removed about 100 MB from our debs
[09:10] <mako> mdz: i think we will want to at least have them as suggests
[09:10] <mdz> mako, sabdfl: look at it from the other direction
[09:10] <pitti> sabdfl: the language-pack-lang package provides translations, language-support-lang provides dependencies
[09:10] <mdz> mako, sabdfl: the language support metapackage should depend on the support packages
[09:10] <sivang> mako: would be nice, at first I thought the general idea to make language specific tools a depend of the langpacks
[09:10] <sabdfl> mdz: doesn't it make sense to add "language support"? if you want the input methods separately you can always add them directly, but in general reading in a lanauge implies wanting to create content in that language?
[09:10] <mdz> mako,sabdfl: and the translations
[09:11] <mako> pitti: ok, that sounds good
[09:11] <sivang> sabdfl: I agree
[09:11] <mdz> sabdfl: no, being able to read a language means having it displayed correctly in your web browser, etc.
[09:11] <mdz> sabdfl: it does not imply wanting to write documents in openoffice in that language
[09:11] <pitti> sabdfl: our current installer tries to install both pack and support
[09:11] <mako> sabdfl: actually, in terms of just reading, having a translation without a font is slightly useless as well :)
[09:11] <sabdfl> i disagree
[09:11] <smurfix> sabdfl: with what?  ;-)
[09:11] <sivang> mdz: for hebrew enabled desktops, it does ;-)
[09:11] <sabdfl> most people who can read a language (and want to use apps in a language) will want to create content in the same language
[09:12] <pitti> ack
[09:12] <mdz> sivang: you are not listening
[09:12] <pitti> sabdfl: the installer will download the dependencies from the network if available
[09:12] <mako> sabdfl: there is a difference between viewing a webpage in a language and wanting apps in that language
[09:12] <pitti> however, including all dependencies on the CD is just too big
[09:12] <sabdfl> we want to simplify this to the point where someone adds Korean, and gets the fonts, the translations and the input methods
[09:12] <pitti> translations are okay since we stripped them
[09:12] <mdz> sabdfl: we have the capability for both; it's not an issue.  the only question is what to put on the CD
[09:12] <sabdfl> mako: then add the fonts directly
[09:12] <mako> sabdfl: i want to view/write japanese but i don't necessarily want gimp in japanese
[09:12] <Kamion> sabdfl: it's useful for the language support to be a separate package because currently language-support-* pulls in stuff not suitable for server installations
[09:12] <Kamion> sabdfl: this is already implemented in the installer
[09:12] <sabdfl> the thing we want people to apt-get install is the top level metapackage
[09:12] <mako> sabdfl: i'm just saying there's a case for having them seperate
[09:12] <sivang> mdz: ah ok, noted, thanks.
[09:13] <mako> sabdfl: but i'm on your side about this about having the input methods installed on the cd with teh language support
[09:13] <smurfix> We have read < create < localize, more or less, IMHO
[09:13] <Kamion> sabdfl: if there is a top-level metapackage, then *please* let's keep the separate "translations only" bit, it's very useful
[09:13] <sabdfl> agreed, i'm trying to make sure we agree on the end goal, which is to have shot-named language packs which are obvious and easy to find and which do it all
[09:13] <mdz> smurfix: exactly
[09:13] <mdz> sabdfl: I expect we will create a language chooser tool like gnome-app-install, so it won't be an issue
[09:13] <mako> sabdfl: perfect :)
[09:13] <sabdfl> Kamion: no problem, i'm just trying to remind folks that we want to focus on the simple get-it-all case from an end-user experience point of view
[09:14] <sivang> would it e possible to make read < create == read && create for several langs?
[09:14] <pitti> sabdfl: there was a time when the support packages depended on the translation pack
[09:14] <mako> mdz: ideal
[09:14] <sabdfl> mdz: you mean, like, for bendy+1 ;-)
[09:14] <Kamion> sabdfl: well, language-pack-en Recommends: language-support-en; I kind of think it's a frontend issue after that :)
[09:14] <pitti> sabdfl: but some folks complained about this, they wanted it separate
[09:14] <mdz> sabdfl: no, for hoary+1. it would be very simple to do
[09:14] <sabdfl> i'm teasing
[09:14] <pitti> so I made it a Recommends
[09:15] <sabdfl> a System-> Administration -> Languages tool will be perfect
[09:15] <mako> but back to the major question....
[09:15] <mdz> right
[09:15] <pitti> the question is:
[09:15] <mdz> either way, we need a prioritized list of 10 languages
[09:15] <mako> is there space isssues with teh top 8 from that list?
[09:15] <mdz> and then we can choose what will fit, in priority order
[09:15] <pitti> how much space can we devote for translation apcks?
[09:15] <mdz> mako: if we include support tools like dictionaries, yes
[09:15] <mdz> (I think so)
[09:15] <mako> we will need to work on that list a little bit too
[09:15] <mdz> powerpc install CD is 586M currently
[09:16] <pitti> if we include support dependencies (OO.o, ffox, etc.) for 10 languages, space will be an issue
[09:16] <mako> becuase there is more than one arabic, more than one chinese, and more than urdu/hidi
[09:16] <mdz> so we have ~64M
[09:16] <mako> but i can help people sort that out
[09:16] <mdz> i386 is 510M, leaving 140M
[09:16] <mdz> sabdfl: do you think it is important that we standardize the set of languages we will put on the CD, and keep it consistent across releases?
[09:16] <fabbione> if we could kill some kernels....
[09:16] <mako> and that sounds removing all of the old translations?
[09:16] <mdz> sabdfl: if so, we must be much more conservative, to ensure that we don't exceed our space budget
[09:16] <sivang> mako: as far for arabic, people on my country team told me that htere is one "dialect" which is considered official thus resonable to put only it . (jordania)
[09:17] <pitti> mdz: please note that we did not yet strip all packages
[09:17] <sabdfl> mdz: yes, though with derivatives blooming i expect they will tune that list to their audience
[09:17] <sivang> fabbione: hehe
[09:17] <mako> sivang: eastern and egyption.. i suspect jordania is eastern
[09:17] <mako> sivang: but i can look it up
[09:17] <sivang> mako: yes, he told me that noone would get mad if he sees "only" the jordenian one ;-)
[09:18] <amu> egyption is 'real arabic spoken 
[09:18] <mako> i think if we take the languages spoken by msot people in the world and work down that list, we can defend that
[09:18] <mako> we stop when we run out of room
[09:18] <sabdfl> pitti: any idea what we save when we do strip main?
[09:18] <fabbione> mako: we need to be more conservative
[09:18] <mdz> pitti: do you know how much space is occupied by translations in the unstripped packages?
[09:18] <pitti> sabdfl: it's already half-stripped
[09:18] <mdz> mako: agreed
[09:18] <pitti> mdz: hmm, I guess about 80 MB
[09:18] <mdz> mako: but we can't go right up to the limit
[09:19] <sabdfl> the critical point in the evening, then ;-)
[09:19] <mako> fabbione: i can't think of a fairer *or* strategic way to do it
[09:19] <mdz> mako: because then we'll need to drop a language or two in the next release, and as we grow
[09:19] <fabbione> mako: otherwise we might end up in having to remove languages in next releases
[09:19] <pitti> mdz: but that is really a coarse guesstimation
[09:19] <pitti> mdz: I stripped 60 MB of translations for hoary/main
[09:19] <pitti> (zipped)
[09:19] <mako> fabbione: we're not going to nee to be removing languages spoken by 300million+ people :)
[09:19] <sabdfl> the other challenge is that the number of strings will grow, and the translations will get more complete
[09:20] <fabbione> mako: i agree, but we can't add italian in hoary and remove it for BENDY
[09:20] <pitti> right, we should leave some space to account for that
[09:20] <fabbione> mako: it will look really unprofessional
[09:20] <KragenSitaker> wikipedia links to a language frequency list that has ten or fifteen versions of arabic listed as separate languages
[09:20] <mako> fabbione: i don't think the numbers on that list are going to fluctuate too much along *our* timeframe
[09:20] <KragenSitaker> but lists english as one
[09:20] <sabdfl> hmm... can we leave the installer unstripped please?
[09:20] <mdz> sabdfl: we don't have a choice
[09:20] <fabbione> mako: the list of langs no, but the size of packages on cd yes
[09:20] <pitti> sabdfl: it is unstripped
[09:20] <mdz> sabdfl: it cannot be stripped
[09:20] <sabdfl> good :-)
[09:20] <mako> fabbione: right, so we are conservative
[09:21] <mako> so is a good goal to get definite numbers on the sizes and then just work down the list in terms of most spoken languages?
[09:21] <fabbione> mako: if we need to stick to rule #666 that force us to ship always one CD: yes
[09:21] <mdz> mako: that's my feeling
[09:21] <mdz> mako: but we need to know when to stop, as well
[09:21] <sivang> seems that most reasonable
[09:21] <mako> up to a conservative cut-off
[09:21] <pitti> I thought we wanted to take into account in which countries Ubuntu is used most likely?
[09:21] <mako> i mean, then we can't be accused of playing favorites, etc
[09:21] <sabdfl> pitti: would be useful to know if any of the languages we consider translating is very poorly translated, because that is a risk of rapid translation and hence expansion
[09:22] <mdz> pitti: as mako says, it's easier to defend by simple popularity of the language
[09:22] <pitti> sabdfl: that can be seen at the size of the langpack
[09:22] <KragenSitaker> pitti: good point --- portuguese is probably much more important than raw numbers of speakers would suggest
[09:22] <pitti> sabdfl: a good translation has about 3 to 4 MB 
[09:22] <sabdfl> Kamion: how hard would it be to prompt for langpack download based on region as well?
[09:22] <mako> pitti: those numbers work out pretty well.. we may not do, say, a dutch translations on the cd even though we send lots of cds there but i think we'll live
[09:22] <mdz> sabdfl: do you think the concerns about favoritism are justified?
[09:22] <pitti> hmm, ok
[09:22] <Kamion> sabdfl: we can select by region certainly; didn't think you'd want a prompt though
[09:23] <mdz> sabdfl: we would not have hard data to work with for that angle
[09:23] <sabdfl> mdz: if we cover each major language group, and have a rationale that is published, we are fine
[09:23] <pitti> but If I just seed the top 5, we neither have French nor German :-)
[09:23] <sabdfl> kamion: only if they want to download updates
[09:23] <Kamion> sabdfl: you mean something like "if you selected Switzerland, then include French, German, and Italian"?
[09:24] <sabdfl> do we have a multiselect widget in debconf?
[09:24] <sabdfl> present a list and let them select all desired languages?
[09:24] <Kamion> sabdfl: I'd be a bit concerned about geopolitics, but if you like :)
[09:24] <Keybuk> can't we do it automatically if they select to update from the net
[09:24] <sivang> why not shipping each language per word region, and donwload specifics over the net?
[09:24] <Kamion> sabdfl: yes, and that is done in expert mode
[09:24] <sivang> (hmm, not sure if this is even better..)
[09:24] <Kamion> Keybuk: do what?
[09:25] <Thom_Holwerda> 1. Chinese 2. English 3. Hindi 4. Spanish 5. Russian
[09:25] <Keybuk> download interesting language packs based on their locale
[09:25] <Thom_Holwerda> most popluar languages
[09:25] <sabdfl> we can get languages-by-country from rosetta easily enough, or even from the libc translations table carlos loves playing with
[09:25] <Kamion> Template: localechooser/supported-locales
[09:25] <Kamion> Type: multiselect
[09:25] <Kamion> Choices: ${LOCALELIST}
[09:25] <Kamion> _Description: Choose other locales to be supported:
[09:25] <Kamion>  You may choose additional locales to be installed from this list.
[09:25] <Kamion> sabdfl: the installer already uses the SUPPORTED table from libc
[09:25] <sabdfl> Kamion: i love it when you're so far ahead of me ;-)
[09:25] <Kamion> sabdfl: (I had to do it for kickstart, you see :-))
[09:26] <sabdfl> so those locale's map directly to langpacks?
[09:26] <Kamion> many-to-one mapping
[09:26] <mako> wow. nice :)
[09:26] <KragenSitaker> Thom_Holwerda: is that including Urdu under Hindi or not?  They use different character sets
[09:26] <sabdfl> is the question ugly or does it look slick and easy to answer?
[09:26] <Kamion> it's kind of overkill and the UI isn't great, but it'll do for now considering it's an expert mode thing
[09:26] <KragenSitaker> also, what's "Chinese"?
[09:26] <mako> KragenSitaker: we know
[09:26] <Thom_Holwerda> KragenSitaker: i dont know
[09:26] <mako> KragenSitaker: right, i brought this up a little bit
[09:27] <Kamion> sabdfl: it's expert mode only, which is ugly in general; do you want it non-expert-mode?
[09:27] <KragenSitaker> mako: I know *you* know --- I'm just pointing out that Thom may not have been the original compiler of the language list
[09:27] <pitti> KragenSitaker: Mandarin, mostly
[09:27] <Thom_Holwerda> i am indeed not, took it from an atlas
[09:27] <sabdfl> mdz, what do you think about prompting for langpack download based on location if they have chosen to download updates and we know they have a net connection?
[09:27] <mako> pitti: well madarin or catonese is not important because the written language is the same
[09:27] <Kamion> at the moment it's a big list starting "aa_DJ, aa_ER, aa_ER@saaho, aa_ET, af_ZA, ..."
[09:27] <mdz> sabdfl: https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=6390
[09:28] <sabdfl> can we hint at the size of the download involved?
[09:28] <Thom_Holwerda> hindi does not include urdu
[09:28] <pitti> ^ erm, download is already attempted right now??
[09:28] <KragenSitaker> wow
[09:28] <Thom_Holwerda> urdu is 13th
[09:28] <sabdfl> kamion: that's what you prompt on? aa_DJ? "af_ZA"? or "Afrikaans"?
[09:28] <sivang> Kamion: would be good to have it non export, I already have people complaining over too many languge settings that are "expert" moded.
[09:28] <mako> Thom_Holwerda: we know.. but there are an order of magnitude more people who can read hindi versus urdu
[09:29] <Kamion> Keybuk: we already download the language pack that matches their selected language; for some countries I'd be worried about the download being huge if you try everything
[09:29] <Kamion> sivang: non-expert-mode questions require Mark's approval in general
[09:29] <Kamion> sivang: and they'd better be pretty
[09:29] <mdz> sabdfl: oo.o localization alone for Chinese is ~4M
[09:29] <sivang> Kamion: ah oops ok.
[09:29] <Kamion> sabdfl: at the moment; it was a quick hack to let me implement the 'langsupport' keyword in Kickstart
[09:30] <pitti> sabdfl: I think installing one langpack by default (without further prompting) is a good choice for 98% of the desktops
[09:30] <Kamion> translating to more friendly text would be possible but I'll need to figure out how to suck in the translations automatically from iso-codes/localechooser/whatever and probably how to do much cleverer sorting
[09:30] <pitti> mdz: let alone the help packages...
[09:31] <sabdfl> pitti: but which langpack?
[09:31] <Kamion> sabdfl: I'm not sure that this question would pass the needed-for-nearly-everyone test whichever way you slice it
[09:31] <pitti> sabdfl: the langpack matching the users's selected language
[09:31] <mdz> I think we're straying from the point here; do we have a consensus on methodology for selecting which languages we should ship on the CD?
[09:31] <Kamion> sabdfl: that's easy, the one matching the installation language they suggested; that's what we do
[09:31] <pitti> sabdfl: as it's done in the current daily CDs
[09:31] <sabdfl> pitti: ok, that's best
[09:31] <sivang> pitti: agreed
[09:32] <mako> mdz: you have my blessing :)
[09:32] <pitti> proposed method: start adding from the top until 30 MB is reached?
[09:32] <fabbione> 20MB
[09:32] <pitti> then we have enought space even on ppc for the future
[09:32] <fabbione> adding later is easy
[09:32] <fabbione> removing no
[09:32] <pitti> we still gain some space through stripping
[09:32] <mdz> with 20M I do not think we will get Chinese
[09:32] <sabdfl> let's compile a list of top 10 languages spoken, and top 10 countries Ubuntu is requested in shipit, and try to cover all of those
[09:32] <mako> mdz: we will get chinese
[09:33] <pitti> ok, 20 MB is fine, too
[09:33] <mdz> sabdfl: ok, we have both of those lists
[09:33] <Kamion> sabdfl: we can assume that the selected installation language is understood by the user, and I tend to feel that it's better to push off the task of installing further language packs to a desktop application, considering that we've provided for automatic installations with multiple language packs
[09:33] <mako> mdz: and english, and french
[09:33] <fabbione> pitti: that will happen only if we upload the packages that have been unstripped
[09:33] <mdz> mako: not with support
[09:33] <mako> mdz: and probably spanish
[09:33] <mako> mdz: not if we could oo.o support
[09:33] <mdz> mako: oo.o localization, dictionaries, etc.
[09:33] <pitti> fabbione: right, we wil
[09:33] <sabdfl> kamion: agreed
[09:33] <mako> mdz: then we don't include that
[09:33] <mdz> mako: sabdfl insists that we do
[09:33] <sabdfl> and we can make that tool pretty smart, showing just the list of languages recommended for your IP address location, for example
[09:34] <Hwolf> On localisation: I'd like to be able to hide those fonts that I can't read from my ooo fonts list. Otherwise i'll be scrolling through a lot of chinese/hebrew etc. 
[09:34] <fabbione> sabdfl: that doesn't work pretty well when you are behind some retarted networks
[09:34] <Thom_Holwerda> as long as other langueges from ouytside your IP can be selected as well :)
[09:34] <fabbione> retarded even
[09:34] <mako> if thethe choice comes down to  chinese everything support or no other languages, i don't think it's much of a choice
[09:34] <sivang> Hwolf: heh
[09:34] <KragenSitaker> you are in 10.0.0.x.  apparently you are on ARPAnet.  would you like to use English?
[09:34] <sabdfl> fabbione: we'd use combination of current selected timezone/locale and ip address, for example
[09:35] <Hwolf> sivang: it's already annoying, imho
[09:35] <mdz> let's try not to stray too far into the hypothetical; we have an immediate issue to deal with for Hoary
[09:35] <Thom_Holwerda> sabdfl: im dutch but i always use english-- so that may become annoying
[09:35] <sivang> Hwolf: oh :-/
[09:35] <fabbione> sabdfl: imho timezone/locale is the best. I would definetely leave the IP out
[09:35] <sabdfl> Thom: I think english will always be installed. Kamion?
[09:35] <fabbione> sabdfl: it has too many implications and exceptions to provide a good choise
[09:35] <pitti> is there any real opposition to "start adding from the top until 20 MB is reached"
[09:35] <fabbione> sabdfl: + you need a mapping file that is constantly up2date for that
[09:36] <sabdfl> fabbione: we have one, in rosetta
[09:36] <fabbione> sabdfl: Ip address -> location?
[09:36] <sabdfl> mdz: i think you have agreement
[09:36] <mako> pitti: i haven't heard anyone
[09:36] <smurfix> if OOo is included in that size limit, that doesn't seem enough
[09:36] <mdz> if pitti's question is answered, let's proceed with the agenda
[09:36] <mako> pitti: silence is consent :)
[09:36] <pitti> ok :-)
[09:36] <pitti> but I don't seed support dependencies
[09:37] <pitti> just translations
[09:37] <Hwolf> sivang: so if we include all sorts of non-english non-standard fonts, could they be uninstallable without breaking ubuntu-base/desktop?
[09:37] <pitti> dependencies can be downloaded
[09:37] <mdz> pitti: there is clearly much more to discuss about language support; if you could summarize the unresolved questions for ubuntu-devel@lists and start a discussion there, that would be great
[09:37] <mdz> pitti: we have raised some new issues here I think
[09:37] <pitti> ok, I will read scrollback and summarize
[09:37] <mako> pitti: if it's impossible to fit, it's impossible to fit
[09:37] <mdz> thanks
[09:37] <mako> pitti: awesome.. i will jump into that discussion
[09:37] <pitti> mako: obviously :-)
[09:37] <mdz> next agenda item is new maintainer candidates
[09:38] <sivang> Hwolf: well, they should...I'll try over here and let you know
[09:38] <mdz> there is a long list on MaintainerCandidates
[09:38] <mdz> but some of these people I know have already been processed
[09:38] <Hwolf> sivang, thanks.
[09:38] <sabdfl> we now have at least a spec for managing this in launchpad
[09:38] <sabdfl> due to be done for hoary
[09:38] <mdz> if you're already an Ubuntu maintainer, please remove yourself from https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MaintainerCandidates
[09:38] <ogra> we should move them to the MOTU page
[09:38] <mako> a number of them have been processed
[09:39] <mdz> is there anyone present who is seeking TB approval for maintainership?
[09:39] <mako> T-Bone, sivang, ogra are handled IIRC
[09:39] <T-Bone> mako: ? I'm a maintainer since sabdfl appointed me in last november.
[09:40] <mako> T-Bone: yes
[09:40] <ogra> mako: riddell, crimsun, dholbach, Treenaks, ajmitch, tseng
[09:40] <ogra> zul
[09:40] <ogra> sladen
[09:40] <mako> so.. that leaves: Saravanan Raju
[09:40] <ogra> whom did i forget ?
[09:41] <mako> y'know.. a lot of these people were applying for membership
[09:41] <mako> but it was before we had a membership
[09:41] <mako> i know for a fact that several of these people would like to be a member for not a maintainer
[09:41] <mdz> so I take it that there is no TB business regarding maintainer candidates today?
[09:41] <mdz> ok, then
[09:41] <mdz> any other business?
[09:42] <mako> we need to clean up that page
[09:42] <mako> badly
[09:42] <mdz> mako,ogra: can one of you take care of cleaning up MaintainerCandidates?
[09:42] <mako> it's a multi-person job
[09:42] <crimsun_> I'll help with that, mdz/mako/ogra.
[09:42] <ogra> i think every motu can move his page to MOTU 
[09:42] <crimsun_> will sort out in u-d and u-m
[09:42] <mako> people that we don't know what to do, we need to contact them about the membership/maintainership process
[09:42] <ogra> its just reparenting
[09:42] <mako> crimsun_: cool
[09:42] <mdz> ok, thanks
[09:42] <sivang> crimsun_: what is u-m ?
[09:43] <crimsun_> sivang: ubuntu-motu
[09:43] <mako> if there is time, we can talk right after the meeting
[09:43] <sivang> crimsun_: ah -)
[09:43] <crimsun_> (for administrative issues only)
[09:43] <mako> crimsun_, ogra: cool?
[09:43] <mdz> last call for other TB business
[09:43] <crimsun_> mako: yep
[09:43] <mako> oh wait.. there will definitely be time then
[09:43] <ogra> mako: ok
[09:43] <sivang> mako: you need to run no?
[09:43] <mdz> meeting adjourned.  Thanks, everyone
[09:44] <Kamion> sabdfl: sorry, I was busy with #ubuntu-devel stuff; English will not always be installed at the moment (the C locale will, though ...), but I can make that a special case if you like
[09:44] <mako> sivang: nah.. train isn't for a couple hours
[09:45] <sivang> mako: ok
[09:45] <crimsun_> mako: / ogra: most of those names/links are no longer "candidates" per se and have already been approved, so we should just delete them from that wiki page.
[09:46] <ogra> crimsun_: let them reparent it themselves to the respective group member/motu
[09:46] <tseng> can I be my own parent?
[09:47] <tseng> btw, perhaps we should work this out later
[09:47] <ogra> tseng: MTU is your parent ;
[09:47] <crimsun_> ogra: ok. Shall we ping them (on irc and/or via email) to alert them?
[09:47] <mako> tseng: i don't zwiki supports taht, YET
[09:47] <ogra> MOTU even
[09:47] <mako> i'll go through and delete teh folks i know are already members/etc
[09:47] <sabdfl> kamion: thanks. pitti, mdz, how about making English a special case always-install?
[09:48] <fabbione> sabdfl++
[09:48] <pitti> sabdfl: it already is
[09:48] <sivang> I second that,we must have english
[09:48] <sabdfl> mako: perhaps leave people who were declined till we have further working experience together?
[09:48] <pitti> sabdfl: IIRC en is in shipped
[09:48] <sabdfl> with a note
[09:48] <Kamion> we must have C; what's the use case for English?
[09:48] <pitti> Kamion: or is it?
[09:48] <Kamion> pitti: it is
[09:48] <sabdfl> what's the difference?
[09:49] <Kamion> C is what's used as the source for translations
[09:49] <smurfix> Kamion: People who write their C in $LANGUAGE and then ship an English translation may be rare but they're not nonexistent
[09:49] <pitti> ~/ubuntu/seeds-hoary$ grep language-pack-en *
[09:49] <pitti> ship: * language-pack-en
[09:49] <pitti> ship: * language-pack-en-update
[09:49] <Kamion> English may be translated (consider "Trash" -> "Wastebasket" for en_GB, for instance)
[09:49] <mako> sabdfl: right.. the first pass just removed people who are already maintainers
[09:49] <pitti> so it should always be installed
[09:49] <mako> crimsun_, ogra can you guys take a look at the list now
[09:49] <Kamion> smurfix: I fully agree that English should be installed if you've selected English as your installation language. What I'm questioning is the value of installing it for everyone on the planet.
[09:49] <mako> is there anyone i missed?
[09:50] <Kamion> pitti: ship is not always installed; that's the very definition of ship
[09:50] <Kamion> desktop is always installed; ship goes on the CD and is conditionally installed
[09:50] <pitti> argh, I mixed that up with desktop
[09:50] <pitti> right
[09:50] <smurfix> Hmm, you're right, I was thinking of having English as fallback instead of $LANGUAGE, but that's not how it works
[09:50] <pitti> but why would my mother want English?
[09:50] <Kamion> sabdfl: C isn't UTF-8, though (by definition)
[09:50] <ogra> mako: we're talking about MaintainerCandidates ?
[09:50] <Kamion> but "English" fallbacks will be to C
[09:51] <mako> ogra: yes
[09:51] <ogra> mako: i dont see a change...
[09:51] <crimsun_> mako: Jonathan Riddell, Paul Sladen, and Chuck Short have all been approved
[09:51] <ogra> mako: ah.... mozilla cache.... weird
[09:52] <pitti> Kamion, sabdfl, mdz: would you be opposed to removing ttf-indic and ttf-malayan from ubuntu-desktop and isntead make them language-support dependencies?
[09:52] <mako> ok.. new version w/o those three
[09:52] <sabdfl> pitti: fine by me
[09:52] <Kamion> didn't we want to have at least one font that gave coverage of everything, regardless of l-s-*
[09:52] <mako> is there anyone on that list that you know wants to be a maintainer/motu? 
[09:52] <Kamion> ?
[09:52] <Kamion> i.e. installed by default
[09:52] <sabdfl> hmm... good point kamion
[09:52] <Kamion> I thought that was one of the things we discussed; l-s-* was to provide better more specialist coverage
[09:53] <ogra> mako: yup
[09:53] <mako> ogra: who?
[09:53] <mako> i think we should email the rest of them and tell them about the new procedure and ask them if they really want membership, etc
[09:53] <Kamion> so if ttf-{indic,malayan} are just supplementary things then I'd say removing them is fine
[09:53] <ogra> mako: wait, i have to dig my mails.... i got at least 3 motu candidates last week...
[09:53] <sabdfl> pitti: changing my mind to agree with kamion, lets try to retain max font coverage
[09:53] <pitti> sabdfl: ok
[09:54] <ogra> mako: most want to be in the MOTU team.... we first need to review theitr packages....
[09:54] <pitti> sabdfl: ok, so what about "english always be installed"?
[09:54] <pitti> sabdfl: it will be on the cd, so all English users will have it automatically isntalled anyway
[09:54] <mako> ogra: can you then split that page into two lists?
[09:55] <pitti> sabdfl: but for non-English folks it seems to be kind of a waste
[09:55] <Kamion> (it's a trivial base-config change either way, BTW)
[09:55] <mako> ogra: people that you know want to be MOTU.. and ones who you don't know about
[09:55] <pitti> the English translations won't be used even if they are installed
[09:55] <ogra> mako: good idea....i'll do it..
[09:55] <mako> ogra: because if they are not going through pre-hoary they need to go through membership
[09:55] <Kamion> although I guess we wouldn't want to force l-p-en for automatic installs if they didn't select English
[09:55] <mako> ogra: when you are doing, let me know
[09:56] <mako> ogra: i will go through the link and mail all of the people and explain the change in policy and ask them waht they want :)
[09:56] <ogra> mako: during the next hour....
[09:56] <mdz> pitti: this is one of the things I would like to discuss on the mailing list :-)
[09:56] <Hwolf> Kamion, sadfl, mdz, pitti: the same goes for a major bunch of fonts, from ttf-arabic to ttf-korean
[09:56] <ogra> mako: yup..., but that will drown us in package reviews....
[09:57] <mako> ogra: ok.. well i might run off to a train soon so an email makes sure i don't miss it
[09:57] <pitti> Kamion: right, it just makes no sense
[09:57] <mdz> pitti: we have at least three major use cases
[09:57] <ogra> mako: which is quite time consuming....
[09:57] <mdz> pitti: reading content in a language, writing content in a language, and using programs translated into a lanugage
[09:57] <mdz> language
[09:57] <mako> ogra: i can help if you need it
[09:57] <ogra> mako: ok, i'll mail you....including a list of the ppls mail adresses...
[09:57] <mako> ogra: that's not necesasry. i can dig those up
[09:57] <sabdfl> i think anyone who is wanting to se programs in a language is in the content-creation realm too
[09:58] <ogra> mako: k
[09:58] <mako> ogra: just a list of the people you know about in regards to motu and those you don't know about it
[09:58] <sabdfl> which simplifies it to two use cases
[09:58] <mdz> sabdfl: <smurfix>       We have read < create < localize, more or less, IMHO
[09:58] <mako> ogra: i can lbdb the email addresses
[09:58] <mdz> I think that's fairly accurate
[09:58] <mdz> they're concentric
[09:59] <mdz> it might be worthwhile to represent that in the language support packages
[09:59] <sabdfl> we want read everywhere (fonts only) in desktop, then an easy install to get localise+create
[09:59] <sabdfl> if you want localise | create then you need to dig a little
[10:00] <sabdfl> so will pitti initiate a discussion on -devel about english as a default-install option?
[10:00] <smurfix> sabdfl: most people wouldn't want more than one localizations -- what for?
[10:00] <mdz> pitti will initiate a discussion based on the transcript of the meeting + post-discussion
[10:00] <ogra> mako: hmm, this page has the name MaintainerCandidates ... should we probably make a MemberCandidates one ?
[10:01] <pitti> sabdfl: yes, I will put that into the mail
[10:01] <smurfix> I'm not going to switch my OOo to Japanese menus just because I'm writing a letter to my friend in Tokio.
[10:01] <sabdfl> smurfix: need a language for a sysadmin to fall back to
[10:01] <mdz> this should include at least: installer issues (language selection, availability of language packs during the installation process, etc.), language support metapackage organization (read/create/localize), whether we need additional fonts for better desktop coverage...
[10:02] <mdz> whether English should always be installed
[10:02] <ogra> mako: regarding the title and the text at top, i would expect everybody there going for maintainer... even if i dont know them...
[10:04] <mako> ogra: that's just not the case
[10:04] <mako> ogra: because that page is old
[10:04] <ogra> ah, ok...
[10:04] <mako> ogra: i.e., beofre membership and maintainership were different things
[10:05] <mako> i know a few people on that list really want membership, not maintainership
[10:05] <ogra> ok
[10:05] <mako> so we should ask people.. at least the folks at the top of the list
[10:06] <ogra> i just was a bit distraced by the introduction :)
[10:06] <sabdfl> folks, i need to head home unfortunately
[10:06] <sabdfl> good night all
[10:06] <ogra> night sabdfl
[10:06] <pitti> night sabdfl 
[10:07] <sivang> night sabdfl 
[10:30] <ogra> mako: mail sent 
[10:39] <mako> ogra: awesome
[10:40] <ogra> mako: and i just recieved a mail of a new one ;) 
[10:42] <mako> ogra: well that's fine.. i'm not very worried about accounts moving forward