=== lamont [~lamont@mix.mmjgroup.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pitti_ [~martin@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pitti_ [~martin@box79162.elkhouse.de] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === amu [amu@amu.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === maskie [~maskie@196-30-109-136.uudial.uunet.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jiyuu0 [~jiyuu0@218.111.208.58] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jiyuu0 [~jiyuu0@60.48.84.53] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Simira [rpGirl@m146i.studby.ntnu.no] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pitti [~martin@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jiyuu0 [~jiyuu0@219.95.56.51] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mako_ [mako@micha.hampshire.edu] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === zul [~chuck@198.62.158.205] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jbailey [~jbailey@CPE000ded9d787c-CM014260028338.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === sivang [~sivang@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:00] ah yay, just noticed the time has changed for the meeting :) [05:00] has it? [05:00] to when? [05:01] "Tuesday 15 February 2005 20:00 UTC: Technical Board" [05:01] 20:00 UTC [05:01] oh, the technical board, yes [05:01] it was changed a while ago [05:02] but now is the Council meeting, right? [05:02] no, that's next week [05:02] the topic is confusingly ordered [05:02] no today is the 15th [05:02] doh... [05:02] I've been SO sure it's this week. Arg! === tseng [~tseng@thegrebs.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === doko [~doko___@dsl-082-082-194-125.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === doko [~doko___@dsl-082-082-069-076.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === maskie [~maskie@196-30-109-129.uudial.uunet.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dholbach [~dholbach@td9091a7c.pool.terralink.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === sivang [~sivang@box79162.elkhouse.de] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === mdz [~mdz@69-167-148-207.vnnyca.adelphia.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [08:13] ok... i'm off - have a nice evening everyone === dholbach [~dholbach@td9091a7c.pool.terralink.de] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === pitti [~martin@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [08:36] there is a meeting soon isnt there? [08:36] yup [08:36] yes, 25 min [08:36] 24 minutes === haggai can't be at the meeting [08:43] mvo won't make it either [08:43] at least not at first === sabdfl [~mark@dumbledore.hbd.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === sivang [~sivang@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Keybuk [~scott@george.kkhotels.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [08:58] mako: are you going to be here for the meeting? === gro [~gro@ip-212-239-167-206.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [08:59] evening * === tritium [~tritium@ee213-dhcp-15.ecn.purdue.edu] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [08:59] afternoon [08:59] welcome [08:59] Hi all === fabbione [~fabbione@port49.ds1-van.adsl.cybercity.dk] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] [09:00] let's get started [09:00] mdz: yes [09:00] mdz: i'm going to catch the first post-meeting train to boston === fabbione [~fabbione@port49.ds1-van.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:00] mako: great; there is a huge list of MaintainerCandidates and I'm not sure where in the process they are [09:00] good evening for us :) [09:00] let's skip ahead first, and discuss pitti's language pack item [09:00] I believe the question is, which languages should we try to fit onto the standard Ubuntu CD? [09:01] my train leaves in ~1.75h so we should keep that in mind [09:01] sabdfl: we'll need input from you on that [09:01] mdz: how many can we fit? [09:01] For that matter I did some research about the world's most famous languages [09:01] are there publicly available statistics for the number of speakers for each language? [09:01] mako: unknown; they are differently-sized [09:01] http://www2.ignatius.edu/faculty/turner/worldlang.htm === seb128 [~seb128@ANancy-151-1-21-68.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:01] mdz: ^ [09:01] great [09:01] i suggest english, german, french, spanish at least [09:02] i have some unscientific data thta might be useful here [09:02] yesterday i built some stats for jane on where we are shipping CDs [09:02] that will cover more than 1 billion possible users [09:02] mdz: I'd suggest to put in langpacks of countries in which language has been somewhat a barrier for adoption, taking .IL as an example. [09:02] fabbione: there are 1billion english speakers [09:02] of course, we should probably bias our numbers in favour of languages which are used in areas where free software is very popular [09:02] according to above statistics, we need to ship 11 langpacks to cover the most popular langs [09:02] mdz: right, that's not contained in the statistics [09:02] these are the top countries we ship cds to: [09:02] for example, German is not in the top ten on some of these lists [09:02] 1. United States [09:02] 2. Spain [09:02] 3. France [09:02] 4. United Kingdom [09:02] 5. South Africa [09:02] above 11 languages would account for approx. 30 MB [09:03] 6. Netherlands [09:03] but Germany has a lot of free software activity, and I think we should include it [09:03] mako: i mean native speakers. not as second lang [09:03] 7. Canada [09:03] 8. Germany [09:03] mako: hebrew [09:03] 9. Chile [09:03] 10. India [09:03] 11. Australia [09:03] 12. Mexico [09:03] ah right, but that's according to speakers's number [09:03] 13. Belgium [09:03] 14. Russian Federation [09:03] 15. Argentina [09:03] fabbione: agreed, those four should definiteely be on the list [09:03] IIRC, the 5 un languages are: english, spanish, french, arabic and russian [09:03] what languages do we have available for India? [09:03] I would also vote for Chinese [09:04] which are each lingua francas for large numbers of countries [09:04] mdz: if i didn't miscalculate we will cover ~1Bilion users as NATIVE speakers [09:04] fabbione: that's easy. there are 3/4billion native spanish speakers i thought [09:04] fabbione: if we include chinese, we will instantly have 2 Billion === Hwolf [~hidde@136.16.dynamic.phpg.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:04] pitti: how large in total for fabbione's choices? [09:04] pitti++ === pitti calculates [09:04] mako: yup [09:04] i think we need arabic, and chinese [09:05] mako: what about hebrew? lack of speakers? ;-) [09:05] mako: those two are enormous, I think [09:05] sivang: basically :-) [09:05] mdz: arabic is not that big [09:05] mdz: 15 MB for english, german, french, spanish [09:05] mdz: chinese is big i think [09:05] however, we should add portugese and chinese in any case [09:05] arabic is big though [09:05] mako: so it's "go and make a customized installer cd" for me ? [09:05] then we have 22 MB [09:05] sivang: yeah.. we'll make it easy to do that [09:05] you'd also need chinese fonts [09:05] pitti: 22 total, or 22 + 15? [09:06] mdz: 22 total [09:06] wait [09:06] smurfix: if we ship *1* chinese font, it's reasonable [09:06] pitti: does that include the dependencies? [09:06] 1. Chinese* (937,132,000) 3379218 [09:06] 2. Spanish (332,000,000) 3181222 [09:06] 3. English (322,000,000) 2654930 [09:06] 4. Bengali (189,000,000) 610776 [09:06] 5. Hindi/Urdu (182,000,000) 513176 [09:06] fonts? [09:06] 6. Arabic* (174,950,000) 747176 [09:06] 7. Portuguese (170,000,000) 4018494 [09:06] 8. Russian (170,000,000) 2217870 [09:06] 9. Japanese (125,000,000) 2556682 [09:06] 10. German (98,000,000) 3174524 [09:06] 11. French* (79,572,000) 3306650 [09:06] mdz: no, these are just the translations [09:06] above list is the world top ten, middle number: #speakers, right number: langpack size in bytes [09:06] that's native speakers though [09:06] there are almost 2billion english speakers [09:06] mdz: max 15 languages by default i think [09:06] yes, native [09:06] sivang: it's "the language support should be downloaded from the Internet" for you [09:06] but they're all non-native speakers [09:07] mako: yes, but we need to think in terms of native speakers here [09:07] total speakers is a more useful number here [09:07] total speakers: [09:07] fabbione: in terms of "being able to use the cd at all", total is important too [09:07] 1. Mandarin Chinese (1.12 billion) [09:07] 2. English (480 million) [09:07] 3. Spanish (320 million) [09:07] 4. Russian (285 million) [09:07] 5. French (265 million) [09:07] 6. Hindi/Urdu (250 million) [09:07] 7. Arabic (221 million) [09:07] 8. Portuguese (188 million) [09:07] 9. Bengali (185 million) [09:07] mdz: err ok, I'll *have* to do the customized installer cd for the "linux doesn't support hebrew enough" people here :) [09:07] 10. Japanese (133 million) [09:07] 11. German (109 million) [09:07] sivang: or the DVD [09:07] mako: native/total speakers differs only in the ordering, not in the set of languages [09:07] we simply can't fit all languages on a CD [09:07] mdz: right. [09:07] those lists overlap a lot [09:07] those top 15 are also supported by d-i ? [09:07] mako: yes, but second lang has to be weighed in a different way imho. [09:08] ok.. the problem with that list is that 6, for example, is one *spoken* language [09:08] mako: are our pressed CDs 650M max or 700M? [09:08] I think we should focus on native languages [09:08] but they are encoding differently === T-Bone [varenet@T-Bone.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:08] mdz: we did 650 last time [09:08] mdz: for compatibility reasons [09:08] Guys: please note that our current warty cds already ship all translations for the ship seed [09:09] pitti: but they don't ship the auxiliary packages like fonts and dictionaries [09:09] since we stip them, the total sum should indeed be lower if we only ship some langpacks [09:09] and we haven't stripped anything yet, right? [09:09] mdz: I did not take support packages into account [09:09] pitti: i think we should do the top 8-9 of that second list [09:09] or have we stripped packages built since a certain date? [09:09] mdz: I think we shouldn't ship them on the cd [09:09] can we make language-related tools a dependency of the langpack? [09:09] mdz: we already strip for some weeks now [09:09] so installing a language also gives you fonts and input methods? [09:09] sabdfl: this is already been done IIRC [09:09] sabdfl: we could, but currently they are separate, and I think this is better [09:10] mdz: I think the stripping already removed about 100 MB from our debs [09:10] mdz: i think we will want to at least have them as suggests [09:10] mako, sabdfl: look at it from the other direction [09:10] sabdfl: the language-pack-lang package provides translations, language-support-lang provides dependencies [09:10] mako, sabdfl: the language support metapackage should depend on the support packages [09:10] mako: would be nice, at first I thought the general idea to make language specific tools a depend of the langpacks [09:10] mdz: doesn't it make sense to add "language support"? if you want the input methods separately you can always add them directly, but in general reading in a lanauge implies wanting to create content in that language? [09:10] mako,sabdfl: and the translations [09:11] pitti: ok, that sounds good [09:11] sabdfl: I agree [09:11] sabdfl: no, being able to read a language means having it displayed correctly in your web browser, etc. [09:11] sabdfl: it does not imply wanting to write documents in openoffice in that language [09:11] sabdfl: our current installer tries to install both pack and support [09:11] sabdfl: actually, in terms of just reading, having a translation without a font is slightly useless as well :) [09:11] i disagree [09:11] sabdfl: with what? ;-) [09:11] mdz: for hebrew enabled desktops, it does ;-) [09:11] most people who can read a language (and want to use apps in a language) will want to create content in the same language [09:12] ack [09:12] sivang: you are not listening [09:12] sabdfl: the installer will download the dependencies from the network if available [09:12] sabdfl: there is a difference between viewing a webpage in a language and wanting apps in that language [09:12] however, including all dependencies on the CD is just too big [09:12] we want to simplify this to the point where someone adds Korean, and gets the fonts, the translations and the input methods [09:12] translations are okay since we stripped them [09:12] sabdfl: we have the capability for both; it's not an issue. the only question is what to put on the CD [09:12] mako: then add the fonts directly [09:12] sabdfl: i want to view/write japanese but i don't necessarily want gimp in japanese [09:12] sabdfl: it's useful for the language support to be a separate package because currently language-support-* pulls in stuff not suitable for server installations [09:12] sabdfl: this is already implemented in the installer [09:12] the thing we want people to apt-get install is the top level metapackage [09:12] sabdfl: i'm just saying there's a case for having them seperate [09:12] mdz: ah ok, noted, thanks. [09:13] sabdfl: but i'm on your side about this about having the input methods installed on the cd with teh language support [09:13] We have read < create < localize, more or less, IMHO [09:13] sabdfl: if there is a top-level metapackage, then *please* let's keep the separate "translations only" bit, it's very useful [09:13] agreed, i'm trying to make sure we agree on the end goal, which is to have shot-named language packs which are obvious and easy to find and which do it all [09:13] smurfix: exactly [09:13] sabdfl: I expect we will create a language chooser tool like gnome-app-install, so it won't be an issue [09:13] sabdfl: perfect :) [09:13] Kamion: no problem, i'm just trying to remind folks that we want to focus on the simple get-it-all case from an end-user experience point of view [09:14] would it e possible to make read < create == read && create for several langs? [09:14] sabdfl: there was a time when the support packages depended on the translation pack [09:14] mdz: ideal [09:14] mdz: you mean, like, for bendy+1 ;-) [09:14] sabdfl: well, language-pack-en Recommends: language-support-en; I kind of think it's a frontend issue after that :) [09:14] sabdfl: but some folks complained about this, they wanted it separate [09:14] sabdfl: no, for hoary+1. it would be very simple to do [09:14] i'm teasing [09:14] so I made it a Recommends [09:15] a System-> Administration -> Languages tool will be perfect [09:15] but back to the major question.... [09:15] right [09:15] the question is: [09:15] either way, we need a prioritized list of 10 languages [09:15] is there space isssues with teh top 8 from that list? [09:15] and then we can choose what will fit, in priority order [09:15] how much space can we devote for translation apcks? [09:15] mako: if we include support tools like dictionaries, yes [09:15] (I think so) [09:15] we will need to work on that list a little bit too [09:15] powerpc install CD is 586M currently [09:16] if we include support dependencies (OO.o, ffox, etc.) for 10 languages, space will be an issue [09:16] becuase there is more than one arabic, more than one chinese, and more than urdu/hidi [09:16] so we have ~64M [09:16] but i can help people sort that out [09:16] i386 is 510M, leaving 140M [09:16] sabdfl: do you think it is important that we standardize the set of languages we will put on the CD, and keep it consistent across releases? [09:16] if we could kill some kernels.... [09:16] and that sounds removing all of the old translations? [09:16] sabdfl: if so, we must be much more conservative, to ensure that we don't exceed our space budget [09:16] mako: as far for arabic, people on my country team told me that htere is one "dialect" which is considered official thus resonable to put only it . (jordania) [09:17] mdz: please note that we did not yet strip all packages [09:17] mdz: yes, though with derivatives blooming i expect they will tune that list to their audience [09:17] fabbione: hehe [09:17] sivang: eastern and egyption.. i suspect jordania is eastern [09:17] sivang: but i can look it up [09:17] mako: yes, he told me that noone would get mad if he sees "only" the jordenian one ;-) === Thom_Holwerda [~Thom@84-104-100-163.cable.quicknet.nl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:18] egyption is 'real arabic spoken [09:18] i think if we take the languages spoken by msot people in the world and work down that list, we can defend that [09:18] we stop when we run out of room [09:18] pitti: any idea what we save when we do strip main? [09:18] mako: we need to be more conservative [09:18] pitti: do you know how much space is occupied by translations in the unstripped packages? [09:18] sabdfl: it's already half-stripped [09:18] mako: agreed [09:18] mdz: hmm, I guess about 80 MB [09:18] mako: but we can't go right up to the limit [09:19] the critical point in the evening, then ;-) [09:19] fabbione: i can't think of a fairer *or* strategic way to do it [09:19] mako: because then we'll need to drop a language or two in the next release, and as we grow [09:19] mako: otherwise we might end up in having to remove languages in next releases [09:19] mdz: but that is really a coarse guesstimation [09:19] mdz: I stripped 60 MB of translations for hoary/main [09:19] (zipped) [09:19] fabbione: we're not going to nee to be removing languages spoken by 300million+ people :) [09:19] the other challenge is that the number of strings will grow, and the translations will get more complete [09:20] mako: i agree, but we can't add italian in hoary and remove it for BENDY [09:20] right, we should leave some space to account for that [09:20] mako: it will look really unprofessional [09:20] wikipedia links to a language frequency list that has ten or fifteen versions of arabic listed as separate languages [09:20] fabbione: i don't think the numbers on that list are going to fluctuate too much along *our* timeframe [09:20] but lists english as one [09:20] hmm... can we leave the installer unstripped please? [09:20] sabdfl: we don't have a choice [09:20] mako: the list of langs no, but the size of packages on cd yes [09:20] sabdfl: it is unstripped [09:20] sabdfl: it cannot be stripped [09:20] good :-) [09:20] fabbione: right, so we are conservative === elmo [~james@83-216-141-215.jamest298.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:21] so is a good goal to get definite numbers on the sizes and then just work down the list in terms of most spoken languages? [09:21] mako: if we need to stick to rule #666 that force us to ship always one CD: yes [09:21] mako: that's my feeling [09:21] mako: but we need to know when to stop, as well [09:21] seems that most reasonable [09:21] up to a conservative cut-off [09:21] I thought we wanted to take into account in which countries Ubuntu is used most likely? [09:21] i mean, then we can't be accused of playing favorites, etc [09:21] pitti: would be useful to know if any of the languages we consider translating is very poorly translated, because that is a risk of rapid translation and hence expansion [09:22] pitti: as mako says, it's easier to defend by simple popularity of the language [09:22] sabdfl: that can be seen at the size of the langpack [09:22] pitti: good point --- portuguese is probably much more important than raw numbers of speakers would suggest [09:22] sabdfl: a good translation has about 3 to 4 MB [09:22] Kamion: how hard would it be to prompt for langpack download based on region as well? [09:22] pitti: those numbers work out pretty well.. we may not do, say, a dutch translations on the cd even though we send lots of cds there but i think we'll live [09:22] sabdfl: do you think the concerns about favoritism are justified? [09:22] hmm, ok [09:22] sabdfl: we can select by region certainly; didn't think you'd want a prompt though [09:23] sabdfl: we would not have hard data to work with for that angle [09:23] mdz: if we cover each major language group, and have a rationale that is published, we are fine [09:23] but If I just seed the top 5, we neither have French nor German :-) [09:23] kamion: only if they want to download updates [09:23] sabdfl: you mean something like "if you selected Switzerland, then include French, German, and Italian"? === jman [~jman@217.129.142.72] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:24] do we have a multiselect widget in debconf? [09:24] present a list and let them select all desired languages? [09:24] sabdfl: I'd be a bit concerned about geopolitics, but if you like :) [09:24] can't we do it automatically if they select to update from the net [09:24] why not shipping each language per word region, and donwload specifics over the net? [09:24] sabdfl: yes, and that is done in expert mode [09:24] (hmm, not sure if this is even better..) [09:24] Keybuk: do what? [09:25] 1. Chinese 2. English 3. Hindi 4. Spanish 5. Russian [09:25] download interesting language packs based on their locale [09:25] most popluar languages [09:25] we can get languages-by-country from rosetta easily enough, or even from the libc translations table carlos loves playing with [09:25] Template: localechooser/supported-locales [09:25] Type: multiselect [09:25] Choices: ${LOCALELIST} [09:25] _Description: Choose other locales to be supported: [09:25] You may choose additional locales to be installed from this list. [09:25] sabdfl: the installer already uses the SUPPORTED table from libc [09:25] Kamion: i love it when you're so far ahead of me ;-) [09:25] sabdfl: (I had to do it for kickstart, you see :-)) [09:26] so those locale's map directly to langpacks? [09:26] many-to-one mapping [09:26] wow. nice :) [09:26] Thom_Holwerda: is that including Urdu under Hindi or not? They use different character sets [09:26] is the question ugly or does it look slick and easy to answer? [09:26] it's kind of overkill and the UI isn't great, but it'll do for now considering it's an expert mode thing [09:26] also, what's "Chinese"? [09:26] KragenSitaker: we know [09:26] KragenSitaker: i dont know [09:26] KragenSitaker: right, i brought this up a little bit [09:27] sabdfl: it's expert mode only, which is ugly in general; do you want it non-expert-mode? [09:27] mako: I know *you* know --- I'm just pointing out that Thom may not have been the original compiler of the language list [09:27] KragenSitaker: Mandarin, mostly [09:27] i am indeed not, took it from an atlas [09:27] mdz, what do you think about prompting for langpack download based on location if they have chosen to download updates and we know they have a net connection? [09:27] pitti: well madarin or catonese is not important because the written language is the same [09:27] at the moment it's a big list starting "aa_DJ, aa_ER, aa_ER@saaho, aa_ET, af_ZA, ..." [09:27] sabdfl: https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=6390 [09:28] can we hint at the size of the download involved? [09:28] hindi does not include urdu [09:28] ^ erm, download is already attempted right now?? [09:28] wow [09:28] urdu is 13th [09:28] kamion: that's what you prompt on? aa_DJ? "af_ZA"? or "Afrikaans"? === vrecan [~vrecan@67-41-135-182.dnvr.qwest.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:28] Kamion: would be good to have it non export, I already have people complaining over too many languge settings that are "expert" moded. [09:28] Thom_Holwerda: we know.. but there are an order of magnitude more people who can read hindi versus urdu [09:29] Keybuk: we already download the language pack that matches their selected language; for some countries I'd be worried about the download being huge if you try everything [09:29] sivang: non-expert-mode questions require Mark's approval in general [09:29] sivang: and they'd better be pretty [09:29] sabdfl: oo.o localization alone for Chinese is ~4M [09:29] Kamion: ah oops ok. === ogra [~ogra@pD95F85C9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:29] sabdfl: at the moment; it was a quick hack to let me implement the 'langsupport' keyword in Kickstart [09:30] sabdfl: I think installing one langpack by default (without further prompting) is a good choice for 98% of the desktops [09:30] translating to more friendly text would be possible but I'll need to figure out how to suck in the translations automatically from iso-codes/localechooser/whatever and probably how to do much cleverer sorting [09:30] mdz: let alone the help packages... [09:31] pitti: but which langpack? [09:31] sabdfl: I'm not sure that this question would pass the needed-for-nearly-everyone test whichever way you slice it [09:31] sabdfl: the langpack matching the users's selected language === crimsun_ [crimsun@warped.bluecherry.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:31] I think we're straying from the point here; do we have a consensus on methodology for selecting which languages we should ship on the CD? [09:31] sabdfl: that's easy, the one matching the installation language they suggested; that's what we do [09:31] sabdfl: as it's done in the current daily CDs [09:31] pitti: ok, that's best [09:31] pitti: agreed [09:32] mdz: you have my blessing :) [09:32] proposed method: start adding from the top until 30 MB is reached? [09:32] 20MB [09:32] then we have enought space even on ppc for the future [09:32] adding later is easy [09:32] removing no [09:32] we still gain some space through stripping [09:32] with 20M I do not think we will get Chinese [09:32] let's compile a list of top 10 languages spoken, and top 10 countries Ubuntu is requested in shipit, and try to cover all of those [09:32] mdz: we will get chinese [09:33] ok, 20 MB is fine, too [09:33] sabdfl: ok, we have both of those lists [09:33] sabdfl: we can assume that the selected installation language is understood by the user, and I tend to feel that it's better to push off the task of installing further language packs to a desktop application, considering that we've provided for automatic installations with multiple language packs [09:33] mdz: and english, and french [09:33] pitti: that will happen only if we upload the packages that have been unstripped [09:33] mako: not with support [09:33] mdz: and probably spanish [09:33] mdz: not if we could oo.o support [09:33] mako: oo.o localization, dictionaries, etc. [09:33] fabbione: right, we wil [09:33] kamion: agreed [09:33] mdz: then we don't include that [09:33] mako: sabdfl insists that we do [09:33] and we can make that tool pretty smart, showing just the list of languages recommended for your IP address location, for example [09:34] On localisation: I'd like to be able to hide those fonts that I can't read from my ooo fonts list. Otherwise i'll be scrolling through a lot of chinese/hebrew etc. [09:34] sabdfl: that doesn't work pretty well when you are behind some retarted networks [09:34] as long as other langueges from ouytside your IP can be selected as well :) === tim1 [~Tim@dsl-084-058-006-133.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:34] retarded even [09:34] if thethe choice comes down to chinese everything support or no other languages, i don't think it's much of a choice [09:34] Hwolf: heh [09:34] you are in 10.0.0.x. apparently you are on ARPAnet. would you like to use English? [09:34] fabbione: we'd use combination of current selected timezone/locale and ip address, for example [09:35] sivang: it's already annoying, imho [09:35] let's try not to stray too far into the hypothetical; we have an immediate issue to deal with for Hoary [09:35] sabdfl: im dutch but i always use english-- so that may become annoying [09:35] Hwolf: oh :-/ [09:35] sabdfl: imho timezone/locale is the best. I would definetely leave the IP out [09:35] Thom: I think english will always be installed. Kamion? === martinal [MartinAlde@80.229.237.12] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:35] sabdfl: it has too many implications and exceptions to provide a good choise [09:35] is there any real opposition to "start adding from the top until 20 MB is reached" [09:35] sabdfl: + you need a mapping file that is constantly up2date for that [09:36] fabbione: we have one, in rosetta [09:36] sabdfl: Ip address -> location? [09:36] mdz: i think you have agreement [09:36] pitti: i haven't heard anyone [09:36] if OOo is included in that size limit, that doesn't seem enough [09:36] if pitti's question is answered, let's proceed with the agenda [09:36] pitti: silence is consent :) [09:36] ok :-) [09:36] but I don't seed support dependencies [09:37] just translations [09:37] sivang: so if we include all sorts of non-english non-standard fonts, could they be uninstallable without breaking ubuntu-base/desktop? [09:37] dependencies can be downloaded [09:37] pitti: there is clearly much more to discuss about language support; if you could summarize the unresolved questions for ubuntu-devel@lists and start a discussion there, that would be great [09:37] pitti: we have raised some new issues here I think [09:37] ok, I will read scrollback and summarize [09:37] pitti: if it's impossible to fit, it's impossible to fit [09:37] thanks [09:37] pitti: awesome.. i will jump into that discussion [09:37] mako: obviously :-) [09:37] next agenda item is new maintainer candidates [09:38] Hwolf: well, they should...I'll try over here and let you know [09:38] there is a long list on MaintainerCandidates [09:38] but some of these people I know have already been processed [09:38] sivang, thanks. [09:38] we now have at least a spec for managing this in launchpad [09:38] due to be done for hoary [09:38] if you're already an Ubuntu maintainer, please remove yourself from https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MaintainerCandidates [09:38] we should move them to the MOTU page [09:38] a number of them have been processed [09:39] is there anyone present who is seeking TB approval for maintainership? [09:39] T-Bone, sivang, ogra are handled IIRC [09:39] mako: ? I'm a maintainer since sabdfl appointed me in last november. [09:40] T-Bone: yes [09:40] mako: riddell, crimsun, dholbach, Treenaks, ajmitch, tseng [09:40] zul [09:40] sladen [09:40] so.. that leaves: Saravanan Raju [09:40] whom did i forget ? [09:41] y'know.. a lot of these people were applying for membership [09:41] but it was before we had a membership [09:41] i know for a fact that several of these people would like to be a member for not a maintainer [09:41] so I take it that there is no TB business regarding maintainer candidates today? [09:41] ok, then [09:41] any other business? [09:42] we need to clean up that page [09:42] badly === seb128 [~seb128@ANancy-151-1-46-183.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:42] mako,ogra: can one of you take care of cleaning up MaintainerCandidates? === piller [~piller@piller64.sns.ornl.gov] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:42] it's a multi-person job [09:42] I'll help with that, mdz/mako/ogra. [09:42] i think every motu can move his page to MOTU [09:42] will sort out in u-d and u-m [09:42] people that we don't know what to do, we need to contact them about the membership/maintainership process [09:42] its just reparenting [09:42] crimsun_: cool [09:42] ok, thanks [09:42] crimsun_: what is u-m ? [09:43] sivang: ubuntu-motu [09:43] if there is time, we can talk right after the meeting [09:43] crimsun_: ah -) [09:43] (for administrative issues only) [09:43] crimsun_, ogra: cool? [09:43] last call for other TB business [09:43] mako: yep [09:43] oh wait.. there will definitely be time then [09:43] mako: ok [09:43] mako: you need to run no? [09:43] meeting adjourned. Thanks, everyone === Keybuk [~scott@george.kkhotels.co.uk] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] [09:44] sabdfl: sorry, I was busy with #ubuntu-devel stuff; English will not always be installed at the moment (the C locale will, though ...), but I can make that a special case if you like [09:44] sivang: nah.. train isn't for a couple hours [09:45] mako: ok === Thom_Holwerda [~Thom@84-104-100-163.cable.quicknet.nl] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] [09:45] mako: / ogra: most of those names/links are no longer "candidates" per se and have already been approved, so we should just delete them from that wiki page. === gro [~gro@ip-212-239-167-206.dsl.scarlet.be] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["so] [09:46] crimsun_: let them reparent it themselves to the respective group member/motu [09:46] can I be my own parent? === piller [~piller@piller64.sns.ornl.gov] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] [09:47] btw, perhaps we should work this out later [09:47] tseng: MTU is your parent ; [09:47] ogra: ok. Shall we ping them (on irc and/or via email) to alert them? [09:47] tseng: i don't zwiki supports taht, YET [09:47] MOTU even [09:47] i'll go through and delete teh folks i know are already members/etc [09:47] kamion: thanks. pitti, mdz, how about making English a special case always-install? [09:48] sabdfl++ [09:48] sabdfl: it already is [09:48] I second that,we must have english [09:48] mako: perhaps leave people who were declined till we have further working experience together? [09:48] sabdfl: IIRC en is in shipped [09:48] with a note [09:48] we must have C; what's the use case for English? [09:48] Kamion: or is it? [09:48] pitti: it is [09:48] what's the difference? [09:49] C is what's used as the source for translations [09:49] Kamion: People who write their C in $LANGUAGE and then ship an English translation may be rare but they're not nonexistent [09:49] ~/ubuntu/seeds-hoary$ grep language-pack-en * [09:49] ship: * language-pack-en [09:49] ship: * language-pack-en-update [09:49] English may be translated (consider "Trash" -> "Wastebasket" for en_GB, for instance) [09:49] sabdfl: right.. the first pass just removed people who are already maintainers [09:49] so it should always be installed [09:49] crimsun_, ogra can you guys take a look at the list now [09:49] smurfix: I fully agree that English should be installed if you've selected English as your installation language. What I'm questioning is the value of installing it for everyone on the planet. [09:49] is there anyone i missed? [09:50] pitti: ship is not always installed; that's the very definition of ship [09:50] desktop is always installed; ship goes on the CD and is conditionally installed [09:50] argh, I mixed that up with desktop [09:50] right [09:50] Hmm, you're right, I was thinking of having English as fallback instead of $LANGUAGE, but that's not how it works [09:50] but why would my mother want English? [09:50] sabdfl: C isn't UTF-8, though (by definition) [09:50] mako: we're talking about MaintainerCandidates ? [09:50] but "English" fallbacks will be to C [09:51] ogra: yes [09:51] mako: i dont see a change... [09:51] mako: Jonathan Riddell, Paul Sladen, and Chuck Short have all been approved [09:51] mako: ah.... mozilla cache.... weird === mako remembers approving at least two of them [09:52] Kamion, sabdfl, mdz: would you be opposed to removing ttf-indic and ttf-malayan from ubuntu-desktop and isntead make them language-support dependencies? [09:52] ok.. new version w/o those three [09:52] pitti: fine by me [09:52] didn't we want to have at least one font that gave coverage of everything, regardless of l-s-* [09:52] is there anyone on that list that you know wants to be a maintainer/motu? [09:52] ? [09:52] i.e. installed by default [09:52] hmm... good point kamion [09:52] I thought that was one of the things we discussed; l-s-* was to provide better more specialist coverage [09:53] mako: yup [09:53] ogra: who? [09:53] i think we should email the rest of them and tell them about the new procedure and ask them if they really want membership, etc [09:53] so if ttf-{indic,malayan} are just supplementary things then I'd say removing them is fine [09:53] mako: wait, i have to dig my mails.... i got at least 3 motu candidates last week... [09:53] pitti: changing my mind to agree with kamion, lets try to retain max font coverage [09:53] sabdfl: ok [09:54] mako: most want to be in the MOTU team.... we first need to review theitr packages.... [09:54] sabdfl: ok, so what about "english always be installed"? [09:54] sabdfl: it will be on the cd, so all English users will have it automatically isntalled anyway [09:54] ogra: can you then split that page into two lists? [09:55] sabdfl: but for non-English folks it seems to be kind of a waste [09:55] (it's a trivial base-config change either way, BTW) [09:55] ogra: people that you know want to be MOTU.. and ones who you don't know about [09:55] the English translations won't be used even if they are installed [09:55] mako: good idea....i'll do it.. [09:55] ogra: because if they are not going through pre-hoary they need to go through membership [09:55] although I guess we wouldn't want to force l-p-en for automatic installs if they didn't select English [09:55] ogra: when you are doing, let me know [09:56] ogra: i will go through the link and mail all of the people and explain the change in policy and ask them waht they want :) [09:56] mako: during the next hour.... [09:56] pitti: this is one of the things I would like to discuss on the mailing list :-) [09:56] Kamion, sadfl, mdz, pitti: the same goes for a major bunch of fonts, from ttf-arabic to ttf-korean [09:56] mako: yup..., but that will drown us in package reviews.... [09:57] ogra: ok.. well i might run off to a train soon so an email makes sure i don't miss it [09:57] Kamion: right, it just makes no sense [09:57] pitti: we have at least three major use cases [09:57] mako: which is quite time consuming.... [09:57] pitti: reading content in a language, writing content in a language, and using programs translated into a lanugage [09:57] language [09:57] ogra: i can help if you need it [09:57] mako: ok, i'll mail you....including a list of the ppls mail adresses... [09:57] ogra: that's not necesasry. i can dig those up [09:57] i think anyone who is wanting to se programs in a language is in the content-creation realm too [09:58] mako: k [09:58] ogra: just a list of the people you know about in regards to motu and those you don't know about it [09:58] which simplifies it to two use cases [09:58] sabdfl: We have read < create < localize, more or less, IMHO [09:58] ogra: i can lbdb the email addresses [09:58] I think that's fairly accurate [09:58] they're concentric [09:59] it might be worthwhile to represent that in the language support packages [09:59] we want read everywhere (fonts only) in desktop, then an easy install to get localise+create [09:59] if you want localise | create then you need to dig a little [10:00] so will pitti initiate a discussion on -devel about english as a default-install option? [10:00] sabdfl: most people wouldn't want more than one localizations -- what for? [10:00] pitti will initiate a discussion based on the transcript of the meeting + post-discussion [10:00] mako: hmm, this page has the name MaintainerCandidates ... should we probably make a MemberCandidates one ? [10:01] sabdfl: yes, I will put that into the mail [10:01] I'm not going to switch my OOo to Japanese menus just because I'm writing a letter to my friend in Tokio. [10:01] smurfix: need a language for a sysadmin to fall back to [10:01] this should include at least: installer issues (language selection, availability of language packs during the installation process, etc.), language support metapackage organization (read/create/localize), whether we need additional fonts for better desktop coverage... [10:02] whether English should always be installed [10:02] mako: regarding the title and the text at top, i would expect everybody there going for maintainer... even if i dont know them... [10:04] ogra: that's just not the case [10:04] ogra: because that page is old [10:04] ah, ok... [10:04] ogra: i.e., beofre membership and maintainership were different things [10:05] i know a few people on that list really want membership, not maintainership [10:05] ok [10:05] so we should ask people.. at least the folks at the top of the list [10:06] i just was a bit distraced by the introduction :) [10:06] folks, i need to head home unfortunately [10:06] good night all [10:06] night sabdfl [10:06] night sabdfl [10:07] night sabdfl === sabdfl [~mark@dumbledore.hbd.com] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === vrecan [~vrecan@67-41-135-182.dnvr.qwest.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["cry] === mvo_ [~egon@ip181.135.1511I-CUD12K-01.ish.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === T-None [varenet@T-Bone.developer.debian] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] === seb128_ [~seb128@ANancy-151-1-39-130.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pitti_ [~martin@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pitti_ [~martin@box79162.elkhouse.de] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === seb128_ [~seb128@ANancy-151-1-39-130.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["I] === amu [amu@amu.developer.debian] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === Hwolf [~hidde@136.16.dynamic.phpg.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] === martinal [MartinAlde@80.229.237.12] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] [10:30] mako: mail sent [10:39] ogra: awesome [10:40] mako: and i just recieved a mail of a new one ;) === tritium [~tritium@ee213-dhcp-15.ecn.purdue.edu] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] [10:42] ogra: well that's fine.. i'm not very worried about accounts moving forward === ajmitch [~ajmitch@203.89.164.2] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === zul [~chuck@198.62.158.205] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] === ogra [~ogra@pD95F85C9.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Verlassend"] === lexhider [~lexhider@220.235.87.226] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === lexhider [~lexhider@220.235.87.226] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] === mdz [~mdz@69-167-148-207.vnnyca.adelphia.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Client]