/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2005/03/04/#ubuntu-devel.txt

deki_Kamion, thx i will do it, but can it be on wrongly compiled gtk lib?12:00
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Kamion(because whoever knows about it might not be here)12:00
Kamiondeki_: I haven't a baldie notion12:01
deki_ok12:01
=== Kamion <- not gtk expert
Kamionour gtk maintainer is not currently in this channel12:01
beatreaderHi everyone.12:02
beatreaderI'm having trouble installing plone on hoary, due to missing packages.12:03
beatreaderAny thoughts?12:03
bob2in this channel the reply'll be something along the lines of "patches welcome"12:04
beatreaderhmmm...can I add a line to my sources list using debian testing, and get the missing packages from there?12:05
Kamionvery unwise12:05
Kamionapt gets upset by the existence of two different packages with the same version number but different md5sums12:05
dokobeatreader: wait until tomorrow ... we'll have complete plone packages soon.12:05
beatreaderBut then kamion, what are my options?  It`s not realistic for me to build the packages from scratch.12:06
Kamionbeatreader: we don't suggest that users try to get bugs fixed by random distro-hopping :-)12:06
Kamionuniverse is there so that people don't have to try to mix - if there are bugs in universe they should be fixed in universe. :-)12:06
zulhey pitti are you going to have a deb for postgresql jdbc? :)12:20
pittizul: not from my side12:21
pittizul: if you want to care for it, I'm happy to assist you, though :)12:21
pittizul: I'm just not using Java for anything12:21
zulpitti: yeah ill see about that :)12:21
pittizul: could be a nice test/use case for pgxs and postgresql-server-dev12:22
jdubpitti: postgres stuff sounds rad12:25
pittijdub: thanks :-)12:25
pittijdub: btw, is there something like an experimental counterpart for Ubuntu?12:27
pittijdub: I just uploaded all this crack to Debian/experimental12:27
pittijdub: but it would be nice to have a similar place for Ubuntu, too12:27
zullamont: ping12:28
jdubpitti: hoary universe?12:30
pittijdub: I can't put the upgrade transition packages there12:30
pittijdub: they naturally have the same name as the current packages (postgresql, postgresql-client, etc.)12:30
pittijdub: however, having the other packages in universe sounds good12:31
jdubyeah12:31
pittijdub: you just lose the upgrade path, but can install them from scratch12:31
jdubperhaps put the transition packages in a personal repo12:31
=== sivang notes the upgrade path looks cool
jdubpitti: when we have derivative stuff going, you could have your own personal buildd area ;)12:32
=== pitti looks forward to that
dholbachif i'm going to use  DEB_AUTO_UPDATE_AUTOMAKE  and friends in  debian/rules  - i have no alternative but build-depend on specific versions of the autotools, right?12:32
pittidholbach: argh, DON'T do that12:33
pittidholbach: "This way madness lies"12:33
dholbachpitti, i wasnt sure if it was considered a common rudeness12:34
pittidholbach: please try to put the changes into the package diff.gz instead12:34
pittidholbach: it's not rude, it's just unstable12:34
dholbachi see12:35
dholbachok12:35
dholbachi thought it'd be nice to have a clear tarball and a clear diff.gz as well, but i listen to advice :-)12:40
pittidholbach: a clean diff.gz is certainly a good thing :-)12:40
pittidholbach: however, breaking builds because of it is bad12:40
pittidholbach: btw, my favourite build system is cdbs+tarball12:41
pittidholbach: then you can put the autofoo changes into a proper patch12:41
pittielmo_: can I bribe you somehow to give postgresql in experimental/NEW some extra love? :-)12:42
dholbachpitti, the "diff.gz > orig.tar.gz"-situation annoyed me that hard, i didn' even try the tarball alternative12:42
pittidholbach: oops :-) for which package?12:43
dholbachgparted12:43
pittidholbach: it's not going to be smaller with tarball, just nicer to maintain12:43
pittiah12:43
pittiwell, with a small orig.tar.gz this happens...12:43
elmo_pitti: prod me about it in a couple of days, if I haven't done it - I'm too tired to do new tonnight, sorry12:49
pittielmo_: oh, I wasn't speaking of "now, instantly, yesterday" :-) 12:49
pittielmo_: thanks, will do12:49
dholbachelmo, how was the "server maintenance" going?12:50
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elmo_dholbach: took longer than expected, but it was ok12:51
dholbachelmo_, very good! :-)12:51
ograelmo ! :)12:55
pittinight everybody12:55
=== pitti falls asleep
ogranight pitti12:55
dholbachsleep tight, pitti12:56
elmo_ogra: um, there was a couple of things with hwdb.. 12:56
ograoh, a couple ?12:56
ograelmo: tell me ....12:56
elmo_ogra: 'hwdb' isn't expanded anywhere in the description and will be meaningless to most people12:57
ograoh, ok12:57
elmo_ogra also, why arch: any and not arch: all?  it seems to be simple python scripts12:57
ograok, i'll fix that too12:57
elmo_  programs for the ubuntu hdwb system to collect device, config,12:58
elmo_  log and QA data from ubuntu systems12:58
elmo_isn't great, but I'm too tired to suggest anything better really.. "Programs to collect device, config, logs and QA data for the Ubuntu Hardware Database." maybe?12:59
ograat least lintian was happy with that... i'll make it more descriptive12:59
elmo_that'd be great, thanks12:59
ograsounds good12:59
ograhmm, wouldnt lintian moan about capital Programs ? 01:00
elmo_oh, ignore that lintian thing; I'm not at all convinced by it01:00
elmo_err, that specific lintian moan, I mean01:01
ograyou should make a list, which warnings are serious and which arent ;)01:01
elmo_nah, lintian should be fixed - I think most of the most dubious ones already have been, but after we froze01:01
ograto sad its in main...01:02
elmo_there's always hoary+1 :)01:03
ograheh, true :)01:03
ograshould i bump ubuntu0 to ubutu1 for the fixes ?01:04
sivangnight all!01:04
dholbachbye sivan!01:04
elmo_ogra: please - unless you want me to reject ubuntu001:04
sivangnight dholbach 01:04
ograokay01:05
=== sivang --> *sleep*
jvwelmo_: you have lintian 1.23.6/7? That were not really the best lintian releases... but whatever01:05
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elmo_jvw: well if you know of any RC level bugs later versions fixed, I could ask for ours to be updated..01:07
jvwno RC ones01:07
jvwfor my definition (Debian's) or RC at least01:08
jvwelmo_: do you ahve access to /msg to 'elmo'?01:08
elmo_jvw: I can do ..01:08
jvwnot urgent01:08
jvwmore urgent one being typed now :)01:09
elmo_dude, stop sending messages to the non-live client :P01:11
jvwok ok...01:11
jvwyou said you had access to it :)01:11
elmo_I do - by less(1)-ing the logfile - and that's over a non-great link01:11
dholbachhow can i "update" the gnome menus? is it gamin/inotify deserving a kick?01:12
ajmitchelmo_: what happened with the gtk# 1.9.2 upload that I did? katie doesn't send me mails, so I can't tell :)01:12
ogradholbach: kill the panel01:13
herzidholbach: kill -9 `pidof gnome-panel` :-D01:13
ogra(which slays gaim btw)01:13
=== dholbach cries a bit, but kills the panel mercilessly
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elmo_ajmitch: what address do you use in Changed-By ?01:14
ajmitchajmitch@gnu.org01:14
elmo_did too send you the REJECT01:15
ajmitchok, it must be getting dropped somewhere01:15
elmo_looks like it timedout during the upload01:16
elmo_are you uploading from a slow link?01:16
ajmitch128Kbps up01:16
elmo_unfortunately there's a bug in our upload daemon that times uploads out after 900s, you might want to try uploading just the orig.tar.gz separately, then the rest01:17
ajmitchalright, thanks01:17
elmo_or upload it to somewhere with faster uplink, and from there to ubuntu... sorry, it sucks01:17
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dholbachi'm off to bed02:04
ogranight02:04
ajmitchnight02:06
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ariwho was looking for a todo list the other day?02:51
arioh, srbaker02:51
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lamontdaniels: ??04:41
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lunitikDoes Evince replace Xpdf in 'ubuntu-desktop' yet?04:45
Safari_Allunitik, not yet.04:45
lunitikSafari_Al, ahh... k, thank you04:46
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danielslamont: !!04:49
lamontdaniels: wassup?04:50
danielslamont: ah, nothin' :) was wondering how to kick and mirror-sync a custom cd build, but colin got to it04:51
lamontah, good04:51
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danielslamont: ahr :)04:56
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da_bon_bonwhen are we expecting gaim and xserver-xorg updates ?06:24
arias in gaim 1.1.3?06:26
da_bon_bonyes06:26
ariprobably not until the ppc crasher is fixed06:26
da_bon_bonwhat ppc crasher ? gaim 1.1.3 crashes ppc ?06:26
arida_bon_bon: yes06:29
ariunless you build with -O006:29
da_bon_bonari: and what disadvantages does building with -00 have ?>06:30
arino optimization06:31
ariand it doesn't address the real problem06:31
da_bon_bonoh ok..06:32
da_bon_bonari: u the gaim maintainer ?06:32
arifor debian, yes06:33
ariwell, one of them06:33
da_bon_bon:)06:33
da_bon_bonnot for ubuntu ?06:33
crimsunda_bon_bon: because gaim is in main, all the developers "maintain" it.06:34
da_bon_boncrimsun: ah, ok..06:35
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da_bon_bonwhen r we getting xorg 6.8.2 ?07:40
dilingerfabbione and pitti probably aren't around, are they?07:58
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bob2fabio's won't be back until...some point in the distant future08:00
dilingerhrm, ok08:02
dilingeri'm looking at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/usn/usn-82-108:03
dilingeri guess i'm misunderstanding pitti's english08:04
dilinger<pitti>         "In 2.6.8, the only processes that could lock shared memory segments08:04
dilinger<pitti>         were those with CAP_IPC_LOCK.  Unprivileged processes did not get a08:04
dilinger<pitti>         look in." so this is 2.6.908:04
dilingerhe probably meant it was fixed in 2.6.908:05
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Mithrandirdaniels: does fd.o's bugzilla have any "pending" state?08:44
herziari: http://www.blaubeermuffin.de/packages/ there's a gaim-plugin-encyption for hoary, would you sponsor an unstable upload for me?08:53
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pittiMorning08:54
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dokomorning pitti08:55
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pittiMorning carlos09:06
carlospitti: morning09:07
pittiKamion, jdub: I'd like to sync awstats 6.3-1 to hoary; it's a new minor upstream version, but fixes a lot of things09:07
pittiKamion, jdub: http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/a/awstats/awstats_6.3-1/changelog09:07
pittiKamion, jdub: http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=44133109:08
bob2dilinger: oi09:12
d3vic3doko, ping 09:19
dokod3vic3: pong09:19
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dholbachhai09:34
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dilingerbob2: we!09:35
bob2pitti's back so you can harass him directly09:35
pittibob2: who?09:35
dilingerbob2: thanks, already did :)09:36
bob2ah, right09:36
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bob2the best bit about firefox is when it stops redrawing the screen and spins at 100% cpu09:49
bob2195 frames deep, no less09:51
Treenaks195 frames deep?09:51
bob2er, the backtrace is09:52
Treenaksah ok09:52
Treenaksnot the page09:52
bob2heh, no09:52
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dholbachhellas mvo!09:55
mvohi dholbach 10:01
mvomorning all 10:01
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dholbachhi dredg10:01
dredghey10:02
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Kamionpitti: go ahead10:09
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dholbachhi seb128 10:11
seb128morning10:12
pittielmo_: please sync awstats (new upstream version ack'ed by Kamion), and bidwatcher10:13
dholbachcould it be that, whatever puts the buildlogs on p.u.c/~lamont deserves some persuasion10:23
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pittielmo_: pdns sync, please10:26
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seb128jdub: the gtk icon cache is so bong10:28
seb128totally bong10:28
jdubbroken bong?10:28
seb128yeah10:28
seb128if an app install an icon in /usr/share/icons/hicolor/...10:28
seb128the app needs to update the timestamp for the basedir (/usr/share/icons/hicolor)10:29
seb128or the cache just mask the icon10:29
seb128and we have about 350 packages puttings some icons here10:29
seb128without updating the timestamp10:29
seb128so 350 apps broken10:29
jduboh man10:29
seb128some of them crash, some other don't display an icon10:30
jduboh man10:30
seb128exactly10:30
jdubhow's that for an optimisation!10:30
seb128and owen's reply is "The icon theme spec requires the toplevel directory mtime to be updated when installing something into a subdir."10:30
jdub:-)10:30
seb128and NOTABUG so10:30
seb128that an the icon cache doesn't work on ppc10:31
seb128you only get hicolor icons10:31
seb128we are probably dropping gtk-update-icon-cache in deb for the moment10:31
seb128I'm curious to know how fedora uses it10:31
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pittiHi Astharot 10:35
Astharothi pitti :)10:35
pittiAstharot: do you want to provide an updated patch for synaestesia?10:36
dholbachbbl10:44
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Mithrandirjdub: did you see my comments about flumotion on Thursday?10:46
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Astharot-shit :|10:47
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Astharotpitti: have you wrote something else? :)10:47
pittiAstharot: Joey sent an updated patch to the ML10:47
Astharotyes I know...10:47
AstharotI'm fixing it10:48
pittithanks10:48
pittimvo: btw, I'm still getting the cron error10:48
pittimvo: Could not open ./pool/universe/f/fireflier/fireflier_1.1.4-3/changelog10:48
Astharotdid you see other patches ?10:48
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pittimvo: this is a dangling symlink to "../changelog" -> please resolve symlinks in your script10:50
pittiAstharot: yes, I saw them10:50
pittiAstharot: I will process them ASAP10:50
Astharotok perfect ;)10:50
jdubMithrandir: nup10:50
jdubMithrandir: fire away10:50
Mithrandirjdub: it's almost there, but it needs to be easier to get started with.10:51
jdubyeah10:52
jdubthere's a bit of zen to grok10:52
Mithrandirjdub: currently, it's "fire up those three magic commands, then a flumotion-admin (with the auth info on the command line)", which really sucks.10:52
Mithrandirit was easy, but wrong.10:52
jdubalso, my package makes it a bit harder once you understand it10:52
jdub/usr/sbin/flumotion makes it easier10:52
jdubbut i haven't made an init script for it yet, etc.10:52
Mithrandirone shouldn't have to be root to run the streaming server.10:53
jdubalso, local changes improve generation of default.pem, etc.10:53
Mithrandirthere's really no reason why one should be.10:53
jdubyeah, i don't run it as root10:53
Mithrandirwe might want to do something like user-level services at some point.10:53
Mithrandirwhere a user can say "when this box boots, run those commands"10:53
jdubto make things Just Work, i'm going to add a flumotion user, and add it to audio/video10:53
jdubMithrandir: @reboot in cron :)10:54
Mithrandirjdub: why not just parrot on the init script system?10:54
jdubi dunno10:54
jdubseems a bit cracky ;()10:54
jdub:)10:54
Mithrandirit's really the same thing.10:54
=== thom yawns
Mithrandirand you would get stop/start/reload/restart at the same time.10:54
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seb128hey thom 11:00
Mithrandirdude, it's far from .no to .uk, but not that far. :)11:00
seb128thom: firefox update today ?11:00
pittithom: <bitch>for warty, too? :-)</bitch>11:00
thomMithrandir: thpppppt11:01
mvopitti: it does resolve symlinks now, is it possible that this is a old entry written before the script was fixed?11:03
pittimvo: oh, right. That's entirely possibl11:04
pittie11:04
pittimvo: thus this will never be fixed?11:04
pittior can you fix it manually?11:04
seb128thom: have you read the message about firefox/the pango patch ?11:05
Astharotpitti: sent11:05
pittiAstharot: I saw it, thanks11:05
mvopitti: I just removed the fireflier changelog dir, it will be recreated (corretly) soon (script runs)11:06
pittimvo: thanks a lot11:06
thomseb128: yes, thank you11:06
mvopitti: are there any more packages with broken symlinks that you are aware of? :) 11:06
pittimvo: no, that's the only one11:07
mvopitti: I can ping you when the script has finished (if you want)11:07
seb128thom: np11:08
pittimvo: not necessary, it's not urgent11:08
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Sionidehey i'd just like to say, i installed ubuntu on my laptop yesterday and it went on like a dream...11:38
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RiddellI'm getting complaints that kvim and vim can't be installed in warty (which means installing kde metapackage removes vim)12:19
Riddellkvim depends on vim (= 1:6.3-046+1ubuntu3) but vim has had a security update, any way that can be fixed?12:20
pittiRiddell: yes, you need to upload a new kvim as well12:20
Kamionkvim is part of the vim source package12:20
pittiRiddell: feel free to upload a fixed version12:20
pittiRiddell: (but please send me a debdiff before)12:20
Kamionno, hold on a second please12:21
Kamion(trying to find the bug you need to refer them to)12:21
pittiRiddell: oh, it's part of vim source? then please hold on12:21
Riddellpitti: looks like it is, I didn't realise that12:22
KamionRiddell: please refer them to bug #359912:22
Kamioncomment #212:22
pittiah, that's the reason12:24
pittithanks Kamion12:24
RiddellKamion: ah hah, 12:25
Riddellmany thanks12:25
dholbachdid someone resolve the build/buildlogs-issue, when i wasnt here?12:28
dholbachat least what is going wrong12:29
danielsMithrandir: no12:30
Mithrandirdaniels: bah :/  I'll use [PENDING]  in bug titles or something, then.12:31
danielsMithrandir: if you can fix our setup, or find someone to do the same ... :)12:38
Mithrandirdaniels: can't you get me drunk and drop me into a root shell when I'm in .au and I can look at it? ;)12:38
danielsMithrandir: root access on fd.o is a very exclusive club12:39
Mithrandiryeah, only like 20-30 people or have you cut down on that now?12:39
thomMithrandir: nah, about 2000 people12:43
thomjdub: what should i be calling Firefox in the menu? Firefox? Firefox web browser? Your Mum?12:44
toresbeheh12:45
toresbe"Launch Your Mum"12:45
Mithrandirthom: it's just called firefox here.12:46
danielsMithrandir: only 6, and none of us are NOPASSWD12:47
danielsoh, and pasc has limited sudo (i.e. /usr/sbin/postfix)12:47
Mithrandirdaniels: I don't have NOPASSWD on my laptop and I have a 20-ish char passwd. :P12:47
danielsheh :) well, no-one had passwords on fd.o before12:48
danielsor, we did, but the ldap admin stuff we had was so fucked up that no-one knew what their passwords were12:48
Mithrandireverybody knows passwords are overrated anyhow12:48
danielsand i think everyone had forgotten the root password12:48
danielsso it's kind of lucky that we didn't have any catastrophic failures12:48
=== daniels notes that, post-compromise, after he rebuilt the machines, it is now a LOT better.
thomMithrandir: yes, and there's a bug filed about that12:51
thomthat's why I'm asking :-)12:51
Mithrandirthom: ook12:51
pittielmo: typespeed sync, please12:59
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MithrandirKeybuk: any suggestions on how to multiarchify libtool?01:13
Keybukshouldn't it happen automatically ?01:13
Keybukit tends to just query gcc for things like include and lib directories01:13
Mithrandirhmm, weird.01:14
Mithrandirit doesn't seem to here.. or if so, it doesn't get all it should01:14
Keybukoh01:15
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danielsKamion: ping01:25
Kamiondaniels: pong01:25
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thomelmo: please sync db2latex-xsl01:29
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jbaileyKamion: Just taking a quick pass through the bugs that mdz assigned to me.  Would you mind taking a look at #3982?  It's about a series of d-i errors with a fix in Debiian already.  I'm wondering if you know that it's generally safe for me to just import the fixes / a new version from Debian (+ Ubuntu changes)?01:52
thomseb128: firefox uploaded01:57
thomfixes epiphany locally, at any rate01:57
seb128rock01:57
Kamionjbailey: looking01:58
Kamionjbailey: console-data is a package we've locally modified, but it's generally safe to merge it.01:59
Kamionjbailey: however, we've already got a version newer than the one reported to fix the bug01:59
Kamionjbailey: so I should think it can just be closed (maybe following a test)02:00
jbaileyAh, hadn't noticed that.  *sigh*  Sorry for the hassle.  Will test & close.02:01
mjg59daniels: Hmm. I'm not having much love with 3D over suspend/resume02:02
Kamionno hassle at all :)02:02
danielsmjg59: bongtasmic.  i'm just running stock ... 2.6.10-2-686, actually.02:02
danielsso it might have regressed.02:02
mvoquick poll: is this message to scary: "<big>Warning</big> You are about to install software that can't be <b>authenticated</b>! Doing this could allow a malicious individual to damage or take control of your system."?02:02
Treenaksit's not scary enough :)02:03
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=== mvo chuckles
Treenaksmvo: but seriously, I think it's OK02:03
KamionI would do <b>can't be authenticated</b> rather than just bolding authenticated02:03
Kamionit reads oddly the way it is02:03
Treenaksmvo: it looks like the firefox-for-windows "You downloaded an EXE file" dialog02:03
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mvoKamion: good point02:04
Treenaksmvo: and that scared my grandmother into not installing spyware twice already :)02:04
mvoTreenaks: never seen that one :)02:04
mjg59Snow!02:04
mvoTreenaks: but it seems to work!02:04
mvoTreenaks: your grandmother uses a computer?02:05
Treenaksmvo: an old windows-98 based one, but yes02:05
dholbach<big>Warning</big> You are about to install software that <b>can't be authenticated</b>! Doing this could allow a malicious individual to damage or take control of your system. <i>In that way modified computers were observed to be browsing porn, riding next door neighbours motorcycles and drinking all the milk on their own accord.</i>02:05
mvoTreenaks: how old is she?02:05
mjg59daniels: Are you sure you didn't compile the DRM stuff yourself?02:05
Treenaksmvo: 7602:06
danielsmjg59: ... not entirely02:06
mvoTreenaks: nice!02:07
mjg59I can't find anything in the patches that would provide it02:07
=== mvo chuckles at dholbach
mjg59daniels: Oddly, I can't find them in dri CVS either02:10
mjg59Where's the dri tree in the xorg tree?02:10
danielsmjg59: /cvs/xorg:xc/extras/drm02:11
danielsi can't remember how airlied maintains it; it's probably /cvs/mesa:drm02:11
mjg59daniels: Ok, got it02:12
mjg59The suspend/resume code is in Xorg CVS, but not in DRI CVS02:12
mjg59So we don't have it in the kernel. Gragh.02:12
danielsah yeah02:12
daniels/cvs/dri:drm02:12
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danielsoh yeah, alanh fucked that up horribly :\ committed straight to extras/drm, never sent a patch through02:12
danielsand all the drm stuff had changed, so it's a bitch to port over02:13
danielsairlied was explaining this last week02:13
mjg59Hrngh.02:13
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mjg59Any chance of getting it into our tree?02:14
danielshmmm, dunno02:14
danielsit would mean another ABI change :\02:14
danielsaiui02:14
danielsactually, no, never mind me02:14
mjg59Well, it's either that or we ship without 3D suspend/resume on i83002:14
mjg59Which would suck02:14
danielsyah02:14
danielsi'll talk to zul and lamont about it tomorrow02:15
danielsright now, I'm just trying to work out why evdev sucks so much02:15
mjg59Haha02:15
danielsfrom cat'ing the event device, mouse presses and release generate unique events02:15
danielsyet the xorg evdev driver seems to fire them both off only when buttonrelease is fired02:15
danielsi.e. no window draggy-draggy02:15
KamionRiddell: I don't know if anyone's reported this to you already, but could you/someone get kynaptic rebuilt against current apt?02:15
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pittiHi elmo_ 02:16
pittielmo_: is it a known problem that the buildds are inactive?02:16
mjg59daniels: Ok, if I don't have a chance to look at it tonight I'll let you do it tomorrow02:17
RiddellKamion: will do02:17
danielsmjg59: represent02:17
pittielmo_: i. e. are you workign on them?02:17
KamionRiddell: thanks02:17
RiddellKamion: poke me if I forget02:17
Kamionok02:17
mjg59Damnit, the sysadmin has stolen my ethernet cable02:17
HiddenWolfmjg59: go kick butt02:19
danielshuh, what02:19
elmo_pitti: no - what's not built?02:20
elmo_never mind, I know what it is02:20
dholbachelmo_, none of my packages too, although katie sent me nice receipts for every package (since 01:00 UTC)02:21
mjg59daniels: Other weirdness - if I suspend/resume, then I can't start X again. The running one works fine, but restarting it gives an error saying that a vm86 call failed.02:23
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mantienaHi all02:23
danielsmjg59: huh, bong.  are you vbe posting it?02:23
mjg59Yeah02:23
danielsmjg59: (bearing in mind that i8xx relies on vbe to set modes)02:23
mjg59And setting state on restore02:23
danielsmjg59: try not doing that, then; i don't need to vbe post when i resume (then again, i have dri around s3), and have no problems02:23
mjg59Heh. It /used/ to work, though.02:24
danielsbong02:24
mjg59I'll look into it when I'm not preparing for a talk02:24
danielsheh :) i have my entire lca talk still to write, 'twas due on friday02:25
daniels*sigh*02:25
sivangMorning all!02:26
dholbachhi sivan!02:26
mjg59I need to write my FOSDEM talk. And my GUADEC paper.02:26
tritiumHi sivang02:26
danielseep02:26
danielswhat're you talking on?02:26
ogramjg59: you talk at FOSDEM ?02:26
danielsmy topic is rather handwavey; 'fd.o'02:27
mantienaseb128, hi are you online ?02:27
seb128afternoon02:27
mantienaseb128, I have one question to you regarding to http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16794102:27
elmo_ok, buildds should be happier now02:27
mjg59ogra: In the Debian room02:27
seb128mantiena: yeah ?02:28
dholbachelmo_, cool02:28
ogramjg59: sat or sun ?02:28
mjg59Sunday02:28
ograah, ok....i'm still not sure which day i'll come (or both?) .... good to know :)02:28
mantienaseb128, there is serious policy violation bug reported agains gtk in debian bugzilla, but same bug is considered as not a bug by upsream, so what debian maintainers will do ?02:29
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seb128mantiena: upstream consider that as not a gtk bug, not "not a bug"02:29
seb128mantiena: we probably need to make a dh_something for that and use it02:30
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seb128mantiena: for the moment we will probably drop the icon cache to get the issue sorted02:30
mantienaseb128, some packages, for example OpenOffice.org can't go into sarge because of this bug :(02:31
Treenaksopenoffice.urgh02:32
seb128mantiena: not only openoffice, and that's not only this bug, the cache is broken on ppc too02:32
seb128mantiena: BTW we are working to fix that, don't worry02:32
seb128and I'm away for ~45min now02:32
mantienaseb128, thanks02:32
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jordimvo: ping02:52
jordimvo: well, anyway:02:53
jordi"-t   Give a alternative main window titel (e.g. hostname with `uname -n)`\n"02:53
jordis/titel/title/ & s/-n)`/-n`)/02:53
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mvojordi: fixed some minutes ago in svn :)02:54
jordidamn :)02:54
jordimvo: is the synaptic in Debian the one with the package change history stuff?02:55
jordibecause I don't see it02:55
mvojordi: the version in sid should have it, yes02:55
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=== mvo checks
jordioh02:56
jordiyeah02:56
jordisorry, it's in the File menu.02:56
jordiI wonder if thE file menu should the the Package menu, and the file menu an "Actions" menu or whatever.02:57
jordidunno what the HIG says about the first menu at all02:57
mvojordi: do you think it should be moved somewhere else?02:58
jordino, it was probably a wild idea. If I check the HIG and find something that supports it I'll tell you about it.02:58
jordiI have this idea that the name of the first menu has the name of the objects the application deals with. For example, sj has "CD", etc.02:59
jordiSo maybe synaptci could have "Package". But this is probably not sustained in any guideline :)03:00
jordiI gotta go, 3PM.03:00
jordilaters.03:00
mvojordi: yeah, the file menu does not really fit very well. but it's hard to come up with a better menu I think03:01
mvojordi: bye03:02
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zulhey03:10
mantienadaniels, are there any plans to write Driver "nvidia" instead of "nv" into xorg.conf during xorg autoconfiguration (XORG_FORCE_PROBE=yes dpkg-reconfigure -fpassthrough xserver-xorg) if nvidia-glx and nvidia-kernel packages exist in system ?03:21
danielsmantiena: no03:25
dholbachhi zul03:25
zulhey dholbach 03:26
mantienadaniels, I could write a patch if you accept - problem is, that ubuntu-based LiveCD with 3D games reguire to use nvidia driver and with realization of X autoconfiguration there ar no way to do this :(03:32
danielsmantiena: i won't take a patch to do it03:33
danielsmantiena: the thing is, there's an open source alternative that generally works, and nvidia is known to be broken on some hardware (it will not work with any card below a geforce2; including geforce256, geforce128, tnt2, tnt, riva256, riva128)03:34
pittilamont: ping03:34
danielsdeploying a binary-only driver is an absolute no-no, and we should only ever even consider it when we have no other choice to get a basic screen up03:35
mantienadaniels, you are not right, nvidia works fine with TNT and riva cards03:35
danielsmantiena: wrong.  1.0.6629 will produce blank screens.03:35
danielsmantiena: it's a 'known issue' upstream, and they will fix that in their 'next release'03:35
danielsi don't know when the next release is03:36
danielsand dropping support for even just tnt2s is absolutely unacceptable03:36
mantienadaniels, I don't tested on 1.0.6629, but on some older version it really work03:36
danielsyes, it used to work on 1.0.611103:36
danielsand now it's broken with 1.0.662903:36
danielsand because it's binary-only, no-one has any idea how or why, or how to fix it03:36
mantienadaniels, Btw, don't understand me - I don't wanna make proprietary driver default03:36
danielsright now, there is only one (one) case where nvidia works and nv doesn't, and that case isn't handled by the standard installer right now anyway03:37
danielsbut i need sleep, so goodnight03:37
mantienadaniels, I just wanna make to write Driver "nvidia" if user had *already* installed proprietary nvidia driver03:37
danielsand yeah, it's just not going to happen, sorry.  even giving users the option to install binary drivers is a horrendously bad idea, and will lead to a support nightmare that i'm just not interested in.03:37
danielshow would they have already installed it?03:37
danielsanyway03:38
danielssleep03:38
mantienadaniels, good night, we might to talk about this tomorow03:38
zulhey pitti how is it going?03:39
pittiHi zul03:39
pittizul: like every monday - a weekend worth of security fixes :-)03:39
zulpitti, say it aint so03:39
sivanghi pitti !03:48
pittiHi sivang 03:48
sivangseb128: do you have the bug report number where mdz commented about enabling cups web interface?03:48
pittisivang: what about it?03:48
pittisivang: sudo adduser cupsys shadow03:48
sivangpitti: ah, and it's done? ;-)03:49
pittiyou need to restart cups03:49
sivangpitti: and then I can connect to the web interface?03:49
seb128pitti: ?03:49
pittisivang: but why do you want to do this?03:49
pittiseb128: !03:49
pitti;-)03:49
sivangpitti: I just wanted to read the bug report, see if I can give a hand there :-)03:50
seb128pitti: I'm not sure that you are speaking about the same thing03:50
pittiseb128: what do you mean?03:50
=== pitti talks about the disabled admin capabilities of the web interface
seb128pitti: the bug is about adding something in the gnome-cups-manager UI to activate the web access03:50
pittiah03:50
pittiseb128: I don't know that one03:51
snaggenseb128: Hi, did you take a look at my nvtv package the other day?03:52
seb128snaggen: no yet03:53
snaggenok, just checking... no panik :)03:54
snaggenAnother thing... I tried openoffice.org2 the other day. What state is it in, or rather: do you want bugreports about it or is it too unstable and you know it?03:57
seb128sivang: I don't find the bug now03:57
sivangseb128: ok, I'll do a heavy search.03:58
seb128http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=225104:01
seb128that's it04:01
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sivangseb128: _thank_ you :)04:02
seb128pitti: and this bug is assigned to you04:02
seb128pitti: you should known about the comment :p04:02
seb128*g*04:03
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pittiseb128: oh, THAT one04:06
pittiseb128: but that's something entirely different04:06
pittiseb128: #2251 talks about enabling broadcasts, sivang talks about enabling the admin stuff on the website04:06
seb128pitti: I speak about the comment #1304:09
sivangpitti, seb128 : going out for something urget for about 30 minutes, talk after.04:10
tritiumwasabi, is something wrong with my setup, or are XML parsing errors common with yelp?04:10
wasabime?04:10
=== wasabi looks around.
wasabioh hey seb left me as the maintainer.04:11
pittithom: here?04:11
tritiumwasabi, sorry04:11
wasabitritium, I heard some talk about some bad XML somewhere. =)04:11
tritiumwasabi, okay, thanks.  So seb128 is the new maintainer?04:11
wasabiNot exactly.04:11
wasabiSorta.04:11
pittiseb128: "browsing" == automatic cups server detection with broadcast packets04:11
pittiseb128: that has got nothing to do with the web interface04:12
wasabiYou'd be best using bugzilla I imagine.04:12
tritiumwasabi, ok, thanks.04:12
wasabihttp://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16780804:12
wasabiIn fact...04:12
seb128pitti: ups04:12
tritiumwasabi, that's it exactly04:12
pittiseb128: still, your comment as a gnome guru is appreciated :-)04:13
seb128k :)04:14
thompitti: yeah04:15
thom(was just commenting on the punycode thing)04:15
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elmo_Kamion: ?04:17
thomelmo_: thanks for the sync04:17
elmo_thom: screw you04:17
elmo_err, I mean no problem04:17
smurfixelmo_: was that a Freudian one or did you hit the wrong hotkey? ;-)04:17
thomchaaaarming04:18
elmo_thom: I just got "On battery, not fscking!" on the live cd on Davis.. is that your fault? :>04:18
thomurm, yeah. could be04:18
thomhow the hell did you manage that?04:18
elmo_smurfix: dude, I just tried your keyboard selector thing - it got confused by me trying to use the shift key ("Keycode 54 not expected") - known bug?04:18
elmo_thom: what's to manage?  I booted daily live CD :>04:19
smurfixelmo_: I probably should implement a list of keycodes of modifier keys04:19
smurfixelmo_: or clarify that it asks you to hit the key with that symbol on it, not anything else04:20
thomelmo_: lamer.04:21
thom:-)04:21
smurfixelmo_: anyway why confused? it should just ignore the thing (other than showing the message).04:21
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elmo_smurfix: yeah, clarification would be good04:23
elmo_smurfix: also, it'd be nice if the timer could not appear immeidately; as it is atm, it feels a bit pressured04:23
elmo_or if it didn't go down in second increments maybe04:24
smurfixelmo: Good idea, ten-second-decrements until one gets into single digits sounds OK, no?04:24
ogra elmo_: still any robs with hwdb ?04:25
ogras/robs/probs04:25
elmo_smurfix: sounds great04:26
elmo_thom: okay, prob is /proc/apm exists but is garbage04:26
elmo_probably because this G5 doesn't have normal PMU 04:26
thomdavis is g5, right?04:26
thomrm, right04:26
thomhrm, even04:26
elmo_ogra: haven't checked yet, will try and do in a bit04:26
ograah, great...didnt want to push you :)04:27
elmo_thom: yeah, /proc/pmu is SNAFU too - so it's a kernel wishlist thing, NYP04:27
elmo_is there anything fun/interesting I can do with the live CD beyond, err, boot it up? :)04:28
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elmo_thom: http://people.debian.org/~terpstra/message/20050218.043453.b820f5e2.en.html04:29
thomah, heh04:31
enricoKamion: around?  At the docteam we'd like to make a checkpoint of the situation wrt our things and the freeze dates04:34
dholbachi'm out with murphy - see you later04:35
elmo_ogra: it FTBFS :(04:37
elmo_binary needs to depend on binary-indep not binary-arch in debian/rules04:38
tseng(Reading database ... dpkg: error processing openoffice.org2 (--remove):04:45
tseng files list file for package `openoffice.org2-core' contains empty filenam04:45
tsengwhere is this file?04:45
ograelmo_: gah.... i'll upload a new one this evening...04:45
ograelmo_: thanks for looking04:45
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Mitariohi everyone04:49
mvohi Mitario 04:50
Kamionelmo_: yo?04:54
Kamionelmo_: maybe see if you can do an apt-get upgrade successfully04:54
Kamionor install some other packages or something04:54
Kamiontseng: /var/lib/dpkg/info/openoffice.org2-core.list04:54
tsengKamion: found that. its binary =/04:55
Kamiontseng: corrupt, then; I'd remove it and reinstall the package04:55
Kamionenrico: here04:55
seb128tseng: hey, new fspot to package :)04:55
tsengKamion: thanks.04:55
elmo_Kamion: the yaboot text on the live cd still talks about 'linux' .. but the option it actually wants is (obviously) 'live'.. file a bug?04:55
tsengseb128: will do.04:55
seb128pitti: are you interested by my log too for the mount a few min after the login ?04:55
seb128thanks04:55
pittiseb128: sure, by any meams04:55
pittimeans, even04:55
pittiseb128: it does not occur for me04:56
Kamionelmo_: fixed, thanks04:56
enricoKamion: hi!  How's the status with the freeze?  Have the docteam packages we made been seen by someone, or mdz went in vacation just before receiving my mail about them?04:56
seb128pitti: k04:56
Kamionenrico: I haven't seen them or assigned anyone to look at them, so I don't know04:56
Kamionenrico: I would say that your packages are pretty low-risk with regard to the freeze, so they could go in late04:56
enricoKamion: http://www.enricozini.org/store/mdz04:57
Kamionenrico: I wouldn't sweat it just at the moment, mdz'll be back in a day or two04:57
=== Kamion downloads
enricoOk, so we can wait for him.  Also, it'd be important for us to know about other deadlines, such as having the docs ready for review or translation04:58
elmo_Kamion: the text could also IMO do with emphasizing Apple's more since I assume they're by far our most commonly used powerpc machine  - I suppose there's no hope of getting rid of the whole subarch selection thing and have it automated - maybe it could be a wishlist thing we could offer a bounty on ?04:58
sivangback05:00
mantienaguys, maybe someone could tell me which package should load TV card infrared module (ir-kbd-gpio or ir-kbd-i2c, see http://linux.bytesex.org/v4l2/faq.html#ir ) ? bttv module is loaded automatically, but IR module - not :( 05:01
tsengseb128: update looks good, uploading05:04
seb128tseng: cool05:04
Kamionelmo_: we could bounty benh, but IBM might object ;)05:04
tsengsomeone wrote a review of hoary and lamented that f-spot and some other mono stuff wasnt on the livecd, heh05:04
Kamionelmo_: yeah, could you file a bug about the Apple emphasis and I'll rethink it?05:05
elmo_ok05:05
elmo_is the CD meant to appear on the desktop these days?05:05
tsengseb128: check that out05:07
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seb128elmo_: yeah, but that's quite broken by inotify, should be better if you boot in "noinotify"05:08
tsengseb128: er wrong revision name05:08
seb128I'll fix it before uploading, don't bother05:08
seb128thanks05:08
tsengnp05:08
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elmo_hey! where did this thing get a configured resolv.conf from?  does it take from a linux fs if it finds it?05:09
tsengseb128: if you are still in contact with the debian maintainer you might show him my libgphoto2-sharp.dll.config fix.. the bug isnt obvious if you have libgphoto2-dev installed05:09
elmo_seb128: actually it appeared, I just didn't expect it to :)05:10
seb128oh, ok :)05:10
Kamionelmo_: netcfg probably did it05:11
Kamionvia DHCP05:11
elmo_Kamion: ain't no DHCP server on the LAN05:12
elmo_no libgnome2-perl's on the CD so no gnome debconf frontend - or is that feature?05:13
Kamionprobably bug05:13
ograelmo_: depends on whom you ask ;-p05:14
Kamionno idea where else it might have got resolv.conf from05:14
Mithrandirelmo_: does the resolv.conf make sense for the lan?05:14
Mithrandirelmo_: it might have been copied as part of the cd bootstrapping process, possibly?05:15
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elmo_Mithrandir: hmm, could be05:16
thommy god, it is *throwing* snow down outside05:18
elmo_dude, I know, I had to go and get lunch in this weather05:18
elmo_would it be too DWIMish to suggest that the live CD be ejected when the user selects "Restart computer"?05:18
thomit's settling too. score!05:18
Mithrandirelmo_: file bugs! :)05:19
elmo_Mithrandir: dude, I've got a very long list, which I'll post later and then file bugs on things that are bugs05:19
elmo_I'm just asking now about things I'm not sure about05:19
Mithrandiroh, ok.05:19
Mithrandireject should be on the list05:20
elmo_crap how is 4pm already.  days have too few hours in them, that should be bug #205:21
thomheh05:21
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Keybukyeah, I'm sure Mark would love to solve that one05:21
Mithrandircould I file a bug against gcc for taking too long to compile too?05:21
sivanghi jinty 05:22
elmo_Kamion: do you know off hand which buildds are d-i/live buildds?  or rather which  ones aren't05:22
jintysivang: hey05:23
elmo_argh, who killed esound?05:23
elmo_alsa is still playing at 1.2x speed on my shinybook :(05:24
Kamionelmo_: for d-i I have mcmurdo hooker ross yellow, for live I have terranova weddell adare king05:24
elmo_Kamion: cool, tnx05:25
Kamionelmo_: it attempts to eject the live CD just before rebooting; AFAIK it can't do it earlier than that05:25
elmo_oh - it doesn't seem to have worked on the amd64 box I just tried05:25
elmo_and shutdown plain didn't work on the G505:26
thomwaaaaaah05:26
thomapt-get source foo/warty really needs to work05:26
Kamionelmo_: talk to mdz about that one, I don't know how it works05:27
elmo_Kamion: yeah05:28
pittiseb128: re #2251, do you think that such a browsing checkbox would be easy?05:31
seb128probably yep05:32
sivangseb128: where should this checkbox be? (when adding a new printer? )05:33
pittisivang: what do you think, shall we do that together?05:34
pittisivang: I think it's a relatively important usability issue, so we should do it soon (for Hoary)05:34
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pittisivang: I code the backend with the conffile juggling, you do the gnome stuff?05:34
sivangpitti: I am interested in doing it05:34
pittisivang: that'd be nice05:34
zullamont been around today?05:36
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elmo_hum. on second amd64 box, and the network is failing in a very strange way - I get destination unreachable for anything I ping - I don't THINK it's me being stupid05:46
elmo_Kamion: is the live CD meant to modprobe enough for me to be able to see my disks?05:51
Kamionelmo_: yes05:52
elmo_ok05:53
Kamionelmo_: is it not doing so?05:54
elmo_nope, mptscsih wasn't auto-loaded for this IBM e32505:55
elmo_it got mptbase tho05:55
elmo_gar.  I'm so stupid it hurts.  of course the network doesn't work WHEN YOU'RE IN A DMZ.05:59
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thom*giggle*06:03
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elmo_is there any point in me trying ia64?06:06
pittiKamion: do you think "feature freeze" also covers things like #2251?06:08
pittiKamion: I'm currently discussing with sivang how to make CUPS network printing easier06:08
pittiKamion: it's relatively unintrusive, but it requires some UI changes and some CUPS modifications06:09
sivangKamion: we've thought about adding a checkbox to the forntend to let the user choose if he wants to listen for printer info06:09
pittisivang: btw, if we only offer "disabled" and "local network" then we should not display the radiobutton if the admin made custom settings in cupsd.conf06:10
pittisivang: i. e. if get_browsing() returns -1, just display a note "manually configured" or similar06:11
pittiinstead of the checkbox06:11
Kamionelmo_: mptscsih is a known bug, see #6786, and also UnhotpluggedDrivers in the wiki06:11
sivangpitti: right. the backend cannot cater for every possible setting :)06:11
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elmo_Kamion: meh, you guys keep fixing bugs before I find them - where's the fun in that?06:12
Kamionpitti: I think UI changes are fine, for CUPS modifications might want to ask mdz when he gets back, I don't know much about it ...06:12
ograheh06:12
Kamionelmo_: testing of ia64 would be useful, though06:12
elmo_ok06:13
pittiKamion: I only want to change the conffile (you have to, to enable Browsing)06:13
pittiKamion: no code changes06:13
Kamionpitti: um, can that be done without breaking the security policy?06:13
pittiKamion: but I will ask mdz anyway, of course06:13
pittiKamion: it will be disabled by default06:13
pittiKamion: that's why we need the checkbox in the first place06:14
pittiKamion: mdz quote: "...whether there is a simple way to inform the user06:14
pittithat browsing is disabled, and possibly provide a checkbox to enable it (with a06:14
pittiwarning about the effect on security)"06:14
Kamionoh, I see06:14
pittiKamion: the point is to make it easier to enable it06:14
pittiKamion: I won't allow open ports by default *grin*06:15
KamionI don't see a problem with doing that06:15
pittiokay, then we can start on it, thanks06:15
pittisivang: hehe: cupsd.conf supports "Include"06:18
pittisivang: so we can put the browsing configuration into a separate file and modify just that06:19
sivangpitti: yay!06:19
sivangpitti: so you don't have to do loops in the air to write such a complicated backend06:20
pittisivang: right; I will modify the cups package to ship a separate browsing configuration06:20
pittisivang: and Include that in cupsd.conf06:21
sivangpitti: cool06:21
elmo_ |  | Linux 2.6 [9600 baud serial console]  [Live]  [Text frontend]           |  |06:21
elmo_ |  | Linux 2.6 [9600 baud serial console]  [Live]                           |  |06:21
elmo_what's the difference? :)06:21
sivangelmo_: it's a gtk frontend now? ;-))06:24
elmo_over serial console? :P06:24
pittigtk with ASCII backend06:24
sivangelmo_: frame buffer maybe? 06:24
sivang:))06:24
pittiascii art06:24
sivangascii art RULEZ06:24
pittimplayer -vo aa06:24
sivangpitti: this is SO amazing :-)06:24
sivangpitti: I dropped jaw when I first saw this _working_ on my machine.06:25
Kamionelmo_: newt vs. readline-ish text06:25
Keybukmem06:27
KeybukTotem could not play 'file:///media/IAUDIO/Misc/David Bowie - I Have Not Been To Oxford Town.mp3'.06:27
KeybukCould not open resource for writing.06:27
Keybukwhy the frak is it trying to open it for _writing_ ?06:27
elmo_Kamion: hum - 'No keyboard to configure' -> 'Installation step failed' ?06:27
TreenaksKeybuk: is it opening the file for writing, or the audio device?06:27
sivanghmm, cannot save files from the web in moz-ff anymore...06:27
KeybukTreenaks: well, I'm guessing the file from the message06:28
TreenaksKeybuk: that'd be so wrong06:28
pittilamont: ping06:28
Keybukhmm, no; it can't open the audio device06:28
Keybukesound is broken?06:29
TreenaksKeybuk: hoary switched to polypaudio afaik06:29
elmo_esound got removed and replace by polypaudio :(06:30
Keybukhmm, I'm getting sound events06:30
Treenakswhich may or may not be b0rken06:30
elmo_aiee06:30
Keybukso why doesn't polypaudio do esound-fu ?06:30
elmo_I'm getting full on x prompts06:30
elmo_the horror.  I'm getting Debian flashbacks. 06:30
zulheh..06:33
elmo_haha, whatever trick live cd does to switch to the live session (kexec?) doesn't work too well on ia64, the box just halts at that point06:33
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KeybukFeb 21 17:30:27 descent polypaudio[8368] : protocol-esound.c: Warning! Too many connections (10), dropping incoming connection.06:36
=== Keybuk stares at jdun
Keybukjdub too06:36
Keybukwhy the hell does he always recommend software that doesn't even work06:36
tritiumKeybuk, I get that too :(06:36
Keybukgamin and now polypaudio06:36
KeybukI'm going to add a "did jdub suggest this?  REJECT" step to tech-board deliberations I think06:37
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pittiKeybuk: in order to keep our jobs :-) if everything worked, we might lose it *hehe*06:37
pittijust kidding06:37
kqhello; my name is santiago roza and i'm a freelance writer for a latin american tech magazine.  i've been compiling a few (interesting?) suggestions, so i'm trying to contact some ubuntu developers in order to talk about them (if that's possible)06:39
sivangkq: send it to the documentation list , ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com and also to ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com maybe, sounds very interesting :)06:40
kqok then; thanks a lot06:41
pittisivang, Kamion: argh, problem06:42
pittignome-cups-manager does not run as root, only with "lpadmin"06:43
pittiso the conffile snippet for browsing had to be group writeable for lpadmin06:43
=== T-None is now known as T-Bone
pittii. e. for practically any desktop user06:43
pittiand g-c-m can't restart cupsys06:43
T-Boneevening06:44
pittiHi T-Bone 06:44
T-Bonehi pitti06:45
kqmaybe i could throw some of the suggestions here, for a little pre-feedback before i face the lions...  :P06:48
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Kamionelmo_: keyboard> hm, what?06:53
Kamionpitti: that sounds like badness06:53
pittiKamion: I don't really want to introduce a setuid wrapper for this06:53
Kamionelmo_: casper uses pivot_root, which works or you'd know about it (the installer wouldn't get past init); more likely to be cloop hosage06:54
kqor maybe i shouldn't, based on responses (or lack thereof)  :)06:54
Kamionkq: well, in general people prefer to be asked straight out rather than to be asked for permission to ask :-) go ahead and see if anyone's up to answering06:55
Kamionpitti: no, that feels wrong to me too, at least at this stage in the release06:55
kqi wasn't "asking for permission to ask"... i don't know what's the deal here, so i asked if this would be the proper place to discuss that06:56
pittikq: sure, just go ahead06:56
Kamionyeah, this channel's fine06:57
kqwell the first one might sound a little lame for experienced gnu/linux users, but i've seen a lot of people with this problem when test-driving ANY linux livecd...06:58
kqthe system auto-mounts all their windows partitions, but they're nowhere to be found (unless you know what you're doing, of course)06:59
kqso i was thinking it wouldn't be so hard to make links to them, and place those links either on the desktop or "my pc" or any other common place07:00
Kamionkq: we don't have an answer to that just yet, and dealing more nicely with Windows partitions is an open bug (right now they aren't automounted at all)07:00
Kamionkq: when we do automount them, sticking links on the desktop will probably be a good idea, in particular because it avoids the hardest problems of what to call the mount points07:00
kqyeah i've seen they aren't automounted, but i guessed it was on the wishlist07:00
kqthis other thing, i didn't know07:01
kqso i suggested it07:01
Kamionpitti: can gnome-volume-manager be made to deal with non-removable devices, or is there some other way to get the links onto the desktop nicely?07:01
pittiKamion: right now it's a policy decision not to mount hard disk partitions with pmount07:02
kqand links to windows' "my documents" would be also nice... it's amazing how many people can't browse through their own hdd to find their documents folder07:02
pittikq, Kamion: this _can_ be changed quite easily, but we don't want to mess up hard disk partitions by default07:03
Kamionpitti: yeah, absolutely07:03
kqthe second suggestion would be a little harder to implement imo, but still rather useful... i already talked about it with the developer of zen linux and he liked it07:03
dholbachkq, another problem with it is writing on NTFS - people will want to save new files in "their documents"07:04
pittiKamion: btw, this would be the second use case for "whitelist" support07:04
Kamionpitti: *nod07:04
Kamion*07:04
pittiKamion: another guy asked me to add this feature to mount network block devices with pmount07:04
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pitticould also be used for windows partitions07:04
kqyeah, but i didn't mean "mount ntfs partitions with write access by default"...07:04
kqthe idea was that they could _find_ their files easily07:04
pitti... which isn't possible anyway ATM...07:04
kqbut of course they should save them somewhere else07:05
pittikq: but that would be even more surprising07:05
pittiusers should read and write their documents to one dir, not two :-)07:06
kqwe're talking about a livecd07:06
kqyou boot it...07:06
kqtest-drive it (with your own files preferrably)07:06
kqthen you might choose to install it07:07
pittiah, hmm07:07
pittithus _always_ mounting win partitions read only?07:07
kqthat'd be my choice07:07
KamionFAT32 partitions could be mounted read-write07:07
kqi'm not a coder, though... but seems like the sanest default07:08
pittiyes, but then it shuoldn't be done automatically07:08
kqyeah, fat should be read/write i guess07:08
Kamionpeople often create FAT32 partitions for shared use between Windows and GNU/Linux07:08
pittiI think it should be either "r/o by default" or "r/w" after explicit configuration07:08
elmo_Kamion: I sent mail - that should explain the keyboard thing better07:08
Kamionpitti: there's not much opportunity for explicit configuration here - it's not like you go through the partitioner07:08
pittiKamion: I mean, remove the "ro" in fstab07:09
kqif it's not too hard to implement, r/w for fat and read-only for ntfs would be optimal...07:09
pittihmm, this is still screwed07:09
Kamionr/w is sufficiently sane for FAT32 that we should use it by default, and NTFS should be r/o07:09
pittiKamion: if we do this in the installer, then this breaks when the user changes his partitions (or reformats them with ntfs. etc.)07:10
kqit should have a nice clear "you can't write here" error message for ntfs07:10
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kqsomething like...07:10
pittiKamion: OTOH, if we do this with pmount, we had to change our pmount policy07:10
kq"writing on ntfs partitions from non-windows systems is not 100% safe unless blah..."07:10
Kamionpitti: that's why I was asking for some other way to put links on the desktop smoothly; TBH I think I'd rather not use pmount07:11
Kamionalthough I suppose pmount would make the partitions user-writable, which is kind of a necessity07:11
Kamionpitti: we're talking live CD here, not installer07:12
pittiKamion: I think if /etc/fstab contained user-mountable partitions, they would be displayed in Places07:12
pittiKamion: hmm, but live and installed system should behave the same07:12
pittiat least that's how it should be like IMHO07:12
pittiotherwise people will complain that it doesn't work in the installed system07:13
kqyeap... seems like the most logical choice07:13
Kamionpitti: true07:14
Kamionso put them in fstab with the 'user' flag set, and let something in the desktop stack mount them on demand?07:15
pittithat would work07:15
pittig-v-m should already support that07:15
pittiKamion: however, I'm still not sure that a static entry in fstab is the right thing07:15
pittithis will break as soon as the partitions get changed07:16
Kamionthat goes for partitions selected for a given mount point in the installer, too07:18
KamionIMHO automounting should be no different to explicit selection07:18
kqlet me go off-topic for a couple seconds; maybe it's a stupid question (but i couldn't find the answer anywhere): was it _absolutely_ necessary to break 100% compatibility with debian (and its repositories i mean)?07:19
Kamionand I think we can live with it that way; most people don't rearrange partitions every day07:19
Kamionkq: yes, unfortunately07:19
Kamionkq: the alternative was changing every version number of every package07:19
Kamionor dropping the requirement that we build everything from source ourselves07:19
kqwell i'm a newbie when it comes to gnu/linux07:20
kqbut i've seen zen linux and it's 100% debian07:20
pittiKamion: hmm, right07:20
kqalthough damn easy to use on boot, and very ubuntu-like in many aspects07:20
Kamionkq: perhaps they have different underlying constraints; for example they might not have the same flexibility to change everything in their own repository07:20
kqso i was just wondering...07:20
elmo_any distro that forks packages in a non-trivial way is de facto no longer 100% compatible with Debian07:20
kqand ubuntu had to fork packages in a non-trivial way because...?07:21
Kamionas I understand it, Zen build straight from the Debian archive; correct me if I'm wrong07:21
kq(i'm just asking; i don't know)07:21
kqyeap, it was build straight from the debian archive07:21
Kamionbecause we were doing lots of things that meant we couldn't sit around and wait for the Debian maintainer in question, we required the flexibility to make changes ourselves07:22
elmo_and there's other things too, like the p4 tuning07:23
kqaha... i thought debian had a huge repository, that's why i thought it was enough07:24
kqbut again, you're the experts  :)07:24
tsengkq: not every package is changed from debian07:24
Kamionultimately if you build from the Debian archive you have to play by Debian rules for every package; that's fine for many people, but it *does* impose constraints, and with a six-month release cycle we don't have a lot of space to wait07:24
Kamionso instead we compromised07:24
tsengkq: as each release cycle opens things are merged from debian to ubuntu taking into account any local changes07:24
Kamionwe provide 'universe', which has everything in Debian, but rebuilt by us (and, in some cases - but by no means all - with Ubuntu-specific changes)07:25
Kamionand we merge regularly from Debian to make sure that we don't diverge forever and either (a) miss out on bug fixes or (b) forget to send our own changes back to Debian where applicable07:26
Kamion(the requirement to merge means that we have a positive incentive to send changes back, since then our merge job is simpler)07:26
=== pitti tests new kernel, brb
=== lamont finally makes it to the computer
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trukulohi ppl07:28
zulKamion: for those hotplug bugs all you have to do is add a patch like in #678607:28
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zulhey lamont...finally :)07:28
dholbachwb ogra 07:28
ograhi07:28
mjg59zul: We need to get some DRM stuff from Xorg into the kernel07:29
Kamionzul: note that #6786 was by me ;)07:30
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kqthanks for the explanation, kamion07:30
trukuloogra, what about graveman in hoary? it's version 0.3.207:30
trukuloin sid otavio has 0.3.807:30
Kamionzul: I'm doing patches for the ones that represent installer regressions now07:30
ogratrukulo: nah, 0.3.607:30
pittiKamion: confirmed07:30
Kamionwhich I think is only three drivers07:30
pittiKamion: as soon as tehre is an user-mountable vfat volume in fstab, g-v-m will automatically pick it up07:30
trukuloogra, ah, ok, my fault then07:30
ogratrukulo: next week....07:30
pittiKamion: and you have it in places, Computer, and the Desktop07:30
trukuloi'm uploading just now to hoary07:30
Kamionpitti: oh, cool, thanks!07:30
trukuloogra, k, thanks07:30
kqmy second suggestion, as i was saying, would be kinda hard to implement, but i'm sure it'd be very useful07:31
pittiKamion: so in theory users would only need to setup their win partitions in the installer07:31
Kamionpitti: well, I'd really like this to be taken care of automatically07:31
trukulopitti, that could be cool07:32
pittiKamion: yes, that would certainly rock :-)07:32
elmo_hmm.  a big heavy metal slide door held up by a plastic tiewrap07:32
Kamionpitti: I can work on that in partman-auto or partman-basicfilesystems or wherever turns out to be appropriate, now that I know what to do07:32
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kqfrom what i've seen, a significant % of livecd users don't just boot them once and install (or throw them away); on the other hand they boot a few livecds quite often07:32
kqwhy don't they just install them?  i wouldn't know... but it happens07:32
pittiKamion: maybe vfat partitions can be pre-defined automatically in partmap07:33
kqand no matter how hard you optimize it, the boot process takes time07:33
pittiKamion: then users can still tweak it, but have something to build on07:33
kqenter my solution  :P07:33
Kamionpitti: yeah, indeed07:33
lamontzul: it's like a holiday here, you know... :-)07:34
zulmjg59: what do you need07:34
pittiKamion: argh, please hold on; I forgot to specify "noauto"07:34
kqsince users don't change their hardware config every other day, it'd be cool if live distros could save certain autodetected data to a floppy disk, so it could be auto-read on boot (speeding up the process a lot)07:34
zuloh yes its presidents day07:34
kqlike hardware.ubuntu, whatever.ubuntu, hardware.knoppix, etc07:35
pittiKamion: however, enabling this in g-v-m is easy, even if it does not support hd-automounting right now07:35
zulKamion: i was just thinking the advansys driver07:35
pittiKamion: that feature existed once, but Debian disabled it07:35
trukulokq, that's now new, others live-cds does it with usb-devices07:35
pittilamont: oh, you have holiday today?07:35
Kamionkq: hardware detection is pretty fast nowadays; I'm not sure that the overhead of reading from a floppy disk (which, BTW, requires hardware detection before you can do it ...) wouldn't overshadow that07:35
lamontpitti: yeah07:35
kqi didn't mean the home directory07:35
pittilamont: darn, cyrus-sasl doesn't build07:35
lamontwhich means I need to buy hay and such before the snow arrives tonight. :-(07:35
kqnot the whole home directory at least07:36
mjg59zul: I'll try to sort a patch tonight07:36
=== lamont feels like he imagines drug addicts feel when their dealer disappears
zulmjg59: ok..07:36
kqjust a couple basic files07:36
mjg59Is -20 out yet?07:36
kqand you wouldn't need a usb device07:37
kqit could be done with one by choice, but not necessarily07:37
Kamionkq: to be honest I think the time would be better spent, and more effective, speeding up the existing boot process; however if somebody wanted to prototype your suggestion I don't think we'd object07:37
zulmjg59: not yet..lamont is on slacking...er...holiday :)07:37
Kamionkq: there is a valid use case for saving user configuration to some kind of persistent medium, though07:37
kqwell, the zen linux guy is gonna go for it07:37
mjg59Haha07:37
mjg59It'd be good to get the PPC stuff tested07:38
kqso you might wanna take a look when it's done07:38
KamionZen Linux' live CD is constructed quite differently isn't it? I don't think it uses casper07:38
kqand then decide if you like it or not07:38
mjg59I don't want to try pushing PPC hibernate support until I know we haven't damaged suspend to RAM07:38
kqi wouldn't know about its booting architecture...07:38
Kamionwhere is Zen's source?07:39
pittiKamion: actually, the way I tested right now (without "noauto", i. e. mounted by /etc/init.d/mountall.sh) is not exactly bad07:39
Kamionpitti: it doesn't make the filesystems writable by the desktop user, though07:39
pittiKamion: but it should be umask=000 anyway, shouldn't it?07:40
pittiKamion: or do you want to restrict access to the first user who is logged in?07:40
Kamionthat's horribly bad for something mounted permanently07:40
KamionI want it to be mounted at login, and ideally mounted somewhere that other users can't see it07:40
elmo_Kamion: why is i386 live so much smaller than the others?07:40
kqi guess you'd have to ask the guy for his sources... it says it's released under the gpl, but the source is nowhere to be found07:41
pittiKamion: hmm, okay. Then let's use g-v-m for this07:41
Kamionelmo_: powerpc has three times the number of modules and I guess amd64 just has fatter binaries07:41
Kamionkq: hm, not exactly the right spirit :(07:41
kqi know i know07:41
dholbachlamont, ping07:41
kqi never said it was right   :)07:41
lamontpitti: I believe that simply telling oo.o-amd64 to build on ia64 should actually fix 6438 :-)07:41
lamontdholbach: sup>07:41
lamont?07:41
pittilamont: you mean OO.o does work on ia64?07:42
=== mvo is away for ~1,5h
dholbachlamont, could you recompile mplayer?07:42
elmo_Kamion: gar, right07:42
kqbut i talked to him and he didn't seem like the kind of guy who'd do that... so i guess it's just a matter of bandwidth07:42
dholbachlamont, i guess i'm not allowed to upload to multiverse07:42
lamontpitti: I mean that the underlying libs are built on ia64, and ia64 has an ia32 emulation mode... hence....07:42
Kamionsomebody should correct the bit in oo.o-amd64's source that refers to ftp.no-name-yet.com, BTW07:42
lamontdholbach: what exactly needs to change in mplayer?07:42
dholbachlamont, it's because of libavcodec (transition)07:42
pittilamont: nice solution indeed :-)07:42
dholbachlamont, just recompiling07:43
Kamionkq: if he's just using Debian repositories, then the bandwidth for his source (presumably just the live CD infrastructure and the live CD -> HD installer) ought to be tiny compared to shifting lots of ISO images :-)07:43
lamontdholbach: I'll add that to today/tonight's list - I want to verify that it builds first, of course...07:43
dholbachlamont, i did it two weeks ago07:43
Kamionkq: (I know it isn't your fault)07:43
dholbachlamont, but can check too if you like07:43
kqi know you know; i was just saying  :)07:44
kqhttp://www.zenlinux.org/drupal/public/releases/ZenLinux_v1.0_Core_pkg_list.txt07:44
kqpackage list for zen 1.007:44
kq(core... they have gnome and kde versions too)07:44
Kamionelmo_: could you check /etc/yaboot.conf for video=ofonly? it should've been passed through07:45
kqhttp://www.zenlinux.org/drupal/public/releases/ZenLinux_v1.0_Gnome_pkg_list.txt07:45
kqhttp://www.zenlinux.org/drupal/public/releases/ZenLinux_v1.0_KDE_pkg_list.txt07:45
kqno package lists for maintainance releases (up to 1.05 core)07:45
kqonly a changelog07:46
kqhttp://www.zenlinux.org/drupal/?q=node/3507:46
Kamionoof, those files are in a painful format for automatic comparison, dpkg -l cuts off package names07:46
kqanyway... maybe it's a question of crappy low-end hardware, but on-boot detection wasn't all that fast in my experiences07:47
kqso i still think preloading it from a diskette would be faster (for certain configurations of course)07:47
kqand so did this guy, who seemed to have much more of an idea than i do  :)07:47
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kqso i guess we'll just have to wait (till zen 1.1) and see07:48
kqhe agreed on leaving the field open for all other live distros willing to implement/copy that feature (using per-distro names like hardware.zen, not _one_ fixed "hardware.blah" for all), which is fair i think07:50
kqbut you guys don't seem interested in this feature _at all_, so i'll just shut up  :)07:51
trukulokq, that's not gpl07:51
kqwhat's not gpl?07:51
trukuloobligation of credit on software07:51
kqi didn't say anything about that07:51
trukuloah, sorry07:52
kqmaybe i didn't express myself well07:52
trukuloyou mean files07:52
trukulook07:52
trukuloi don't udernstand well07:52
kq(english is not my primary language as you might have noticed :) )07:52
Kamionwe do need to speed up hardware detection, certainly; there's still a good bit of work that can be done on that easily I think07:52
=== lamont finds hay. Now to find a truck
=== zenrox hands lamont the truck
Kamionthe existing installation infrastructure is a fairly quick conversion of the Debian installer to hotplug, and I think there are quite a few delays that could be eliminated07:53
kqcan i ask some other stupid question (but only if i promise your names will be credited eternally in some tech mag you'll never read)?  :P07:54
kqi can't find detailed info on the ubuntu-gnoppix issue07:54
kqit's not a merge it seems07:54
Kamionkq: (it's also worth noting that our main live CD guys aren't around at the moment, and haven't been throughout this conversation)07:54
kqso i was wondering what it was...  :)07:54
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kqthanks for the notice07:55
sivangpitti: hrm, just read the backlog, then how can we tackle this?07:55
kqalthough i wouldn't know who you guys are... couldn't find a developers list, and even if i had, it wouldn't probably include irc nicknames  :)07:55
Kamiongnoppix is based on Ubuntu nowadays; I'm not sure it's a merge as such but they switched over to be based on Ubuntu and contribute development effort to us07:57
mxpxpodjbailey: ping07:57
dholbachkq,  /whois <nick>  helps most of the time :-)07:57
kqyeah i know whois; thank you  :)07:57
kqand why didn't they merge?  what are they doing that you're not, or viceversa?07:59
kq"doing" in a very broad sense of course07:59
KamionI honestly don't know the details; they have a different established community, so a raw merge might not have been very easy to achieve07:59
kqso basically they're not merging just for the sake of having their very own distro  :P08:00
kqthat, and the (un)cool name  :P08:00
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mantienaguys, maybe someone could tell me which package should load TV card infrared module (ir-kbd-gpio or ir-kbd-i2c, see http://linux.bytesex.org/v4l2/faq.html#ir ) ? bttv module is loaded automatically, but IR module - not :( 08:04
kqhave you considered offering "not-so-official" isos with all that (vital) non-free stuff you probably couldn't include in main (java, flash, etc)?08:04
kqoffering or "facilitating"... pick a word08:05
trukulokq, it' not free software08:05
kqyeah i know that08:06
kqthat's why i said "not-so-official"08:06
kqsome distros bundle that...08:06
trukuloit's not legal, as i know08:06
kqdepends on the country08:06
kqi'm damn sure it's not illegal in (let's pick a random country) argentina  :)08:07
kqthat's why they can't take down sites like rarewares.org08:07
KamionCanonical is a sufficiently large target to be worth suing08:07
Kamionfrankly I'd rather its money went into continuing to fund Ubuntu development than into legal fees08:08
trukuloi prefer canonical boys working on free software08:08
trukulonot in facilitating closed solutions08:08
kqwhich offer not only source but binaries for things which are illegal somewhere else (rarewares is hosted in brazil afaik)08:08
kqi didn't say "in the main package"08:08
Kamionwe're not hosted in Brazil, our master archive is in the UK which is not quite so lenient08:09
kqi know08:09
kqbut ubuntu's not only uk-centered, is it?08:09
Kamionwe've been asked about this multiple times, and the answer has consistently been "sorry, but no"08:09
kqmaybe i didn't express myself corrently08:09
Kamionif our systems in the datacentre are taken away by the bailiffs, you'll find that it's more UK-centred than you might like to think :-)08:10
kqi wasn't asking for a version branded "ubuntu haxor"  :)08:10
kqalthough "ubuntu warez" would sound nicer  :P08:10
kqnow seriously08:10
kqi just meant08:10
Kamionin the case of Java, we can't ship Sun Java because if we did so we wouldn't be able to ship free Java. We do have people working on improving the state of Java integration.08:10
Kamionthere's plenty about all this on the wiki :)08:11
kqi know the reason why YOU can't08:11
kqi said " offering or "facilitating"... pick a word "08:11
Kamionin general, we are working on facilitating people who want to make derivatives of Ubuntu08:11
kqthat was my question08:12
Kamionthose derivatives could include pretty much whatever they want, so long as it's legal to distribute al08:12
Kamion... at all08:12
kqif a 3rd party offered to bundle and host a derivative which would be illegal in the uk, but not in some other country, would you collaborate or sit around or sue them or what... that was pretty much it08:12
herziseb128: ping08:12
KamionI don't know how it would work if it were illegal in the UK but not elsewhere; that would get "interesting"08:13
kqand you've already answered (very precisely indeed); thanks08:13
kqwell from the examples i know08:13
kqthere's no way to sue the source08:13
Kamionbut we'd have to consider that if/when it came up08:13
kqi could make arrangements to make it happen; i just needed to know if you were ok with it08:14
kqcause if you were gonna sue, well no freaking way i'll even try to pull my strings to get that thing done  :)08:14
KamionI can't give you an authoritative answer, and as a UK resident I would rather not get into the details of things illegal in the UK :-)08:14
kqyeah i know08:14
kqi wasn't requiring you to sign anything  :)08:15
Kamionbut Canonical wouldn't be the people with standing to sue, anyway08:15
kqwell, i picked the wrong word08:15
kqchange "sue" for "make the 'packer's life miserable"08:15
Kamionin general I'm sure we'd be willing to help people who are taking use cases off our back that we can't solve ourselves; to what extent and in what circumstances would probably have to be solved case-by-case, and in any case the infrastructure isn't quite ready yet. :)08:16
kqi can guarantee the source is un-sueable (that word can't exist...)08:16
Kamionzul: right - I'm doing the advansys patch now08:16
herzikq: think of unbreak and any word can exist :)08:16
kqby "help" i just meant "let the guy live"  :)08:16
Kamionzul: would you prefer one patch per driver or a combined patch?08:17
kqbut no one could ever sue you for that08:17
zulKamion: one big chunk would be nice08:17
Kamionzul: well, I'll send you the ones that are installer regressions now, the rest I'll worry about later08:17
kqit's like... the faac or lame or xvid teams offering the source08:17
zulKamion, ok08:18
kqand some other guys taking care of the not-so-legal parts, like compiling it and offering the binaries08:18
kqnot the same scenario... but just an example08:18
kqi'll just make sure they don't brand it "ubuntu uber-warez linux" and that should do  :)08:19
kqbut from what i've seen, many distros include not-so-legal stuff08:19
Kamionbasically, we can't stop you *shrug*08:20
kqi played a couple mp3 with some test version of hoary... you guys are gangstas  :P08:20
lamontdholbach: /usr/lib/libavcodec.a(oggvorbis.o)(.text+0x46): In function `oggvorbis_encode_init':08:20
lamont: undefined reference to `vorbis_encode_init'08:20
lamontthat's what I get...08:20
trukulokq, there are no software patents in europe08:21
trukulonor in uk08:21
trukuloby extension08:21
kqyes i am aware of that, thanks anyway08:21
kqbut mp3 is licensed, not only patented08:21
trukuloat the moment08:21
kqat the moment... as long as poland keeps saving our ass  :)08:21
trukulobut players with reversed ingeniery are allowed in europe08:21
trukulonot only poland08:22
kqyeah i know08:22
trukulospain, i.e. are aginst them too08:22
kqbut they were the ones with the kodak-moment save  :)08:22
trukulotxo times, indeed08:22
trukuloteo times, i mean08:22
trukulos/teo/two08:23
dholbachlamont, oh damn :-/08:23
kqi even wrote an editorial about that... but my audience is mostly newbies, thank god none of you will ever read that   :)08:24
zuldepends on the article and if its in english :)08:24
kqit's in spanish and i wouldn't bother myself if i were you... it's for a completely different audience08:25
kq(but someone has to do it... i'd rather dumb stuff down as much as needed, than keep it completely away from the masses)08:25
kqanyway... miguel de icaza liked the one about him, so bite me  :P08:26
Kamionlamont: are you doing the oo.o-amd64/ia64 thing, or leaving it to somebody else?08:27
herzidholbach: haste mal ne minute fuer mich?08:27
dholbachherzi, bin grad am telefon - 10 minuten08:27
herzik08:28
kqplease don't... or the uninvited guest will start with the spanish, and you'll all ask for redemption  :P08:28
trukulokq, let them work08:28
kqwell i didn't think that'd be taken seriously...08:29
kqsince you've been spoiling me so far, i'm gonna add yet another stupid question...08:31
lamontKamion: I'm backed up behind kernel stuff - hoping someone else will care enough to do it.08:31
kqthe recent hype about ubuntu is just amazing, and i wondered if you could explain the reasons to a certain extent, or just think "it happened"08:32
dilingerlamont: oh, if that was the case, my life would be so much easier :P08:32
kqi already know it's a great distro, btw  :)08:32
sivangpitti: I have two init.d entries for postgres, should there be only one? I have postgresql and postgresql-7.4 08:34
seb128herzi: pong08:34
herziseb128: can you take a quick look at 4079?08:34
lamontright.   off to get hay.  bbiab08:35
seb128herzi: sure08:35
kqbut... it's apt-based (while rpm was the choice for lsb), gnome-based (while everyone seemed to be loving kde), it breaks debian compatibility (although you already taught me it was absolutely necessari), and it doesn't auto-mount windows partitions...08:35
kq*necessary08:35
kqso i was wondering if maybe there was a reason for all this hype, maybe some technical reason beyond my reach08:36
trukulokq, maybe lol08:36
Kamionit doesn't really break Debian compatibility in the ways that actually count; sure, you can't use Debian repositories, but universe exists so that you don't need to08:36
kqtha'ts why i'm asking the experts  :)08:37
seb128herzi: we use 0ubuntu1 as version to not conflict with debian -108:37
kqi'm not complaining about the debian thing... i already said i was a newbie08:37
Kamionand you can use third-party repositories that were created for use with Debian08:37
kqi was just pointing out (arguable) issues08:37
herziseb128: is there a document in the wiki with answers to my questions?08:37
seb128herzi: what questions ?08:37
herzihow to get packages into ubuntu08:38
dholbachherzi, what's up?08:38
trukulohelix, how to contribute?08:38
trukuloi mean, herzi, not helix08:38
herzitrukulo: yepp08:38
=== kq said: so i was wondering if maybe there was a reason for all this hype, maybe some technical reason beyond my reach
seb128herzi: you want to maintain it in universe ?08:39
dholbachherzi, wiki/MOTU is the way to go :-)08:39
seb128herzi: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MOTURecruitment/08:39
zulherzi, or #ubuntu-motu08:40
Kamionkq: I could probably come up with lots of reasons, but just consider based on your own arguments: if everybody else is doing RPM and KDE (which wasn't really the case, actually, but let's pretend it was for the moment), then wouldn't that mean that that market was too saturated to allow another player to gain any useful share?08:40
kqi'm not trying to start an argument; sorry if i wasn't clear08:40
Kamionnor am I, but I think my point is valid :) there was a gaping hole waiting for us to step into it08:41
kqi'm just trying to get answers from people who knows (an awful lot) more than i do08:41
kqi may be a newbie, but i'd take apt over rpm and gnome over kde any day...08:41
seb128herzi: the package looks good. for the copyright you should copy the text (ie: /usr/share/debhelper/dh_make/licenses/gpl) and the cdbs rules is enough :)08:42
kqand i never said everyone was using rpm and kde08:42
kqi just said rpm was chosen as the standard package format for lsb...08:42
Kamionwell then, you're a perfect example of why there was a niche open. :)08:42
kqso that could be it?  you guys came up with a very good and (reasonably) easy-to-use debian-based apt + gnome distro...08:43
Kamionthere's a common misconception that LSB mandates that compliant distros have to use RPM themselves - it never did, it just said they had to support RPM. From some points of view it makes sense for them to pick the least capable of the popular formats, so that everyone could support it08:43
Kamionkq: that was certainly the intention, yes :)08:44
Kamiongiving CDs away can't have hurt either, but there was a fair bit of buzz before we started doing that08:44
kqthat was certainly the intention... ok so i'm a newbie but i'm kinda getting it, finally  :P08:44
kqimho the marketing/pr role of the ubuntu "people" is great, and a key factor too... but that's just my opinion08:45
kq*marketing/pr performance08:46
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KamionI think also we were the first big Debian derivative to actually work with lots of Debian developers08:47
KamionI mean, be worked on by08:47
pittisivang: hmm, that should only be postgresql-7.408:47
pittisivang: the old "dpkg does not delete conffiles" bug08:47
pittisivang: thanks, I'll fix this08:47
sivangpitti: so another bug for the upgrade path?08:47
kqand there's the technical reason a newbie could never come up with... there's a reason why i was asking  :)08:47
sivangpitti: yay cool, happy to be of service for this wonderful pkgs :)08:48
pittisivang: it does not do any harm, but it should be cleaned up08:48
pittisivang: re gcm, I have no idea08:49
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sivangpitti: :-/08:50
Kamionkq: I'm not sure it's *entirely* a technical reason :)08:51
kqyeah, well, "technical"... not the word08:52
kq"unavailable for the uninitiate"...?  :)08:52
kqbrowsing through "debian's women"... man i wanna marry hanna wallach  :P08:55
kqanyway, now seriously08:55
kqif i know this app i'm sure you know it aswell (and better)... do you plan to bundle gparted in ubuntu, by default?08:56
kqcause i noticed a disappointing lack of partition management tools in linux livecds08:56
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dredgapt-cache says: gparted - partition editor for GNOME08:56
kqand gparted delivers (unlike some others)08:56
kqpartition magic replacement is yet another cool use for a livecd i guess08:58
KamionI think gparted's probably a good thing to promote to main post-hoary09:00
kqwhy _post_ hoary (pardon me)?09:00
kqwould it be hard to add or something?09:01
Kamionwe're way, way past the deadline for adding major stuff to hoary09:01
kqmy spider-sense tells me i won't get much love in this channel  :P09:01
kqbut seriously, i don't wanna be a nag09:01
Kamionyou're not, I'm just giving the facts :)09:01
Kamionthe only way to do a six-month release schedule is to be really hard-arsed about deadlines :-)09:02
kqi'm just (really really) interested in ubuntu's development, not trying to bother anyone with stupid questions and/or requests...09:02
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kqbtw, what does "ubuntu" mean?  :P09:03
Kamionit's a perfectly reasonable question; you might like to check http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryReleaseSchedule09:03
kq(just kidding; don't shoot)09:03
Kamionwe may well (ab)use the gparted widgets somehow once we do a graphical installer09:04
kqyeah but i meant in addition to the install version09:04
kqremember i'm into the livecd  :)09:05
Kamionsure, I know; it would reach the normal distribution first, if anything09:05
kqas a matter of fact i'd like to see them become one09:05
Kamion(since the installer piece is much harder to do)09:05
kqbut i guess it's a major pain09:05
Kamionthey're very close to one :)09:05
Kamionthat was what the rearchitecture of the live CD for hoary was all about09:05
Kamionwe use the first half of the installer to bring up a system that's a literal Ubuntu desktop installation plus a very few extra selected packages09:06
kqbut i'ma have to talk to the livecd guys to get them to buy into my floppy-configs idea  :P09:06
Kamionanyway, gotta go to karate, back in 2 hours09:06
kqgood luck, and thanks for all09:06
kqnot just the answerss09:07
kq*answers09:07
kqmostly for ubuntu; that's a slightly bigger contribution to the world than answering my questions  :)09:07
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kqdamn, who will i bother now...?  :P09:12
kqcould anyone please tell me who're the guys (mostly) in charge of the livecd part (autodetection, booting, etc) of ubuntu, and when could i find them here (that, considering they hang out here)...?09:14
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amukq: what's about, write your idea's to the wiki? http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LiveCD/09:36
dholbachdoes anyone have the time to explain briefly how to generate patches used in a cdbs--tarball--simple-patchsys---environment?09:36
jbaileydholbach: What I usually do is get the tarball unpacked and the current patches applied.  Copy the file to a .old version.  Make the diff from in the root of the build-tree and stuff it into debian/patches in a numbered form to preserve sort order.09:37
dholbachjbailey, thanks... i'll try your explanations :-)09:39
jbaileydholbach: np.  Ping here again if you need more help.09:39
dholbachjbailey, right09:39
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dholbachjbailey, thank you VERY much - it worked *WOOHOO!*10:01
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zullater bbl10:09
kqamu: thanks a lot (took me a while to answer; i was at some other thing), but i'd rather talk to them personally... it's much easier to agree that way10:11
amukq: the better way, write down your idea's, place it to the wiki, point the people to there, also tell others ( in the mailling list ) about it. Otherwise you've to wait weeks/month someone has time to listen your idea. Ex. i missed them10:17
kqyeah you're write10:17
kq*right10:18
kqit's just that i've been contributing to much smaller projects, and i must have gotten used to that way10:18
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=== T-Bone sees elmo's mail, never thought of booting a Live CD in serial console. Funny :)
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Kamionlamont: hope #6681 is in time for today(?)'s kernel upload11:13
lamontKamion: so far, everything is. :-)11:15
lamonttoday is probably late late tonight11:15
Kamionah, right11:22
KamionI've checked how modules.pcimap looks after that patch and the mptscsih one; looks OK to me11:22
Kamionlamont: I guess somebody without an ia64 wouldn't be much use at doing the oo.o-amd64 thing?11:23
KamionI *could* just do it, but it's a big mirror hit if I get it wrong ...11:24
lamontKamion: my mirror is almost kinda current - I figure I'll add it to my list after the kernel upload11:25
Kamionok, I think it'd be a really big step to convincing everyone that ia64 is releaseable11:26
lamontmjg59: you around?11:28
mjg59lamont: Yo11:28
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ogra0011:35
ogra######################+11:35
dholbachi guess that was the new cat :-)11:35
Kamionajmitch: http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/m/muine/0.8.2-4ubuntu1/muine_0.8.2-4ubuntu1_20050219-0137-i386-failed11:35
Kamionajmitch: should muine build-dep on libgtk-cil rather than libgtk2.0-cil?11:35
ograoops, sorry...my ne housemate11:35
dholbachhaha11:35
=== dholbach knew it
ogras/ne/new11:35
ajmitchKamion: no11:37
ajmitchKamion: I've uploaded gtk-sharp-unstable11:37
ajmitchbut it hasn't appeared yet11:37
lamontajmitch: new?11:39
arihow come GIMP is listed on the bounties page under Python scripting projects?11:40
ajmitchlamont: yep11:40
sivangari: because there is a wish to create a DOM spec that would allow programs such as gimp and the other listed there to be used from one std. and agreed API common to all of them , I think11:41
ariah.11:41
sivangari: sorry, that would allow scripting those programs from one coherent api11:42
Kamionajmitch: ah, ok11:47
lamontKamion: is the patch for 6681 stolen from head, or is it our own?11:49
Kamionlamont: I wrote it today11:50
lamontcool11:50
lamonti386 patch, yes?11:50
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lamontKamion: added11:51
lamontKamion:  you know that -20 is unlikely to finish building everywhere before the daily build tomorrow morning, yes?11:52
ajmitchbbl11:52
lamontKamion: thoughts on 6786?11:52
Kamionlamont: that's ok; it changes ABI anyway, right?11:52
Kamionlamont: #6786 is pretty much the same thing, I wrote that patch today too11:53
lamontyeah - abi bump in -2011:53
Kamionok, so I need to rev debian-installer for that anyhow11:53
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zulhey11:58

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