[12:08] <Evaso> anybody here?
[12:09] <sivang> hi Evaso , what do you mean udf printing?
[12:09] <Evaso> sivang: packet cd wrting
[12:09] <Evaso> sivang: is in the upstream kernel 2.6.10
[12:10] <sivang> Evaso: join #ubuntu-kernel and ask there, they may know better :)
[12:10] <Evaso> sivang: but i think we have problem in debian/unstable ubuntu about autmatically mount this type of cd/dvd with writing support available
[12:11] <Evaso> sivang: i had in debian already available, so is also in hoary, the problem is about user space tools
[12:11] <sivang> Evaso: aren't they also in universe?
[12:12] <Evaso> sivang: do u know that the packet writing is created as a virtual device /dev/pktcdvd/0 ?
[12:12] <sivang> Evaso: sorry, I have no idea :-(
[12:13] <sivang> Evaso: If you're question is regarding when/how/if to add support for this in ubuntu, you could email the devel list with your suggestion to it and I'm sure somebody would comment and respond you.
[12:14] <ogra> Evaso, CONFIG_CDROM_PKTCDVD=m 
[12:14] <ogra> Evaso, so the module should be there
[12:15] <sivang> ogra: what about the user  space tools? if they're not in universe we should get them there :)
[12:15] <ogra> Evaso, (from /boot/config-2.6.10-3-amd64-k8)
[12:15] <Evaso> ogra: i tink that the module is compiled already in the kernel
[12:16] <ogra> sivang: then someone should put them on UniverseCandidates
[12:16] <Evaso> but how pmount/fstab handle the /dev/pktcdvd/0 device?
[12:16] <ogra> Evaso: that was what i meant with the baove
[12:17] <sivang> Evaso: that's intersting question, you can ask pitti here tommorow morning if you like, or have the module loaded and expriment :). (he wrote pmount)
[12:17] <ogra> Evaso: sorry, i never used packetcd, so i cant tell
[12:17] <sivang> Evaso: can this be tested on CDRWs as well? (as opposed to DVDs)
[12:18] <Evaso> ogra/sivang: mounting manually on debian unstable works perfectly
[12:18] <sivang> Evaso: and you can add remove files as much as you want?
[12:18] <Evaso> for example mount /dev/pktcdvd/0 /mymedia/cdrom
[12:18] <ogra> Evaso: does it work manually on ubuntu ?
[12:19] <Evaso> i had not ubuntu installed but i tink that (as debian) it mount udf on /dev/hdx so is only readable
[12:20] <ogra> Evaso: but i think the above way would work in ubuntu too
[12:20] <Evaso> yes can u install udftools in ubuntu?
[12:21] <ogra> Evaso: even if the cdrom defaults to hdX you should be able to mount it manually like above
[12:21] <sivang> Evaso: udftools installed fine here :0
[12:21] <sivang> Evaso: sorry, I meant = :-)
[12:21] <Evaso> well, so "the console" way is the ubuntu choiche?
[12:22] <Evaso> sivang: can u format a cdrw with udf?
[12:22] <sivang> Evaso: I can try, but I use stock kernels.
[12:22] <ogra> sivang: it should work with the stock kernel
[12:22] <sivang> Evaso: I am not sure if I have udf support in stock kernel, and I am not going to recompile one now - sorry am too busy for that :-(
[12:22] <sivang> ogra: ah ok
[12:22] <sivang> Evaso: then I can give it a try for you :)
[12:23] <sivang> ogra: how do I enable it? modprobe pktcdvd ?
[12:23] <ogra> sivang: btw: cat /proc/filesystems should show you udf
[12:24] <sivang> nodev   binfmt_misc
[12:24] <sivang>         udf
[12:24] <sivang>         iso9660
[12:24] <sivang> yes, so I have it :)
[12:24] <ogra> sivang: you, you load the pktcdvd
[12:24] <ogra> module
[12:24] <dholbach> anyone familiar with gnome-cdbs--packaging?
[12:24] <dholbach> and yes... i know that seb128 isnt here :-)
[12:24] <ogra> dholbach: he just left
[12:24] <sivang> dholbach: to what degree? ;-) (I know really tincy bits if it)
[12:24] <Evaso> sivang: do u not need to modprobe pktcdvd udftools load it on boot
[12:25] <dholbach> sivang: gconf installation stuff throws an error
[12:25] <sivang> Evaso: I didn't do that, and I pasted you the output of my fs modueles :)
[12:25] <sivang> ogra: I surely don't need pktcdvd for CDRW right?
[12:25] <jbailey> dholbach: I'm about as familiar with cdbs as you can get.  =) What do you need?
[12:26] <sivang> dholbach: you'd better he help you :)
[12:26] <Evaso> sivang: no u must to format a cd for udf with mkudffs
[12:26] <sivang> jbailey: Hey Jeff :)
[12:26] <ogra> sivang: with pktcdvd you can use a cd like a harddisk...you must format it before
[12:26] <jbailey> sivang: Heya!
[12:27] <sivang> Evaso: ah ok, then when my CDRW is freed (used currently to install ubutnu on a crashed laptop) I will give it a couple of tests.
[12:30] <daniels> mdz: pong
[12:30] <Nafallo> jbailey: I love your suggestion about iptables.d, any work being done? :-)
[12:31] <jbailey> Nafallo: Nope.  ServerTeam stuff is all post-Hoary.
[12:31] <Nafallo> jbailey: ahh, oki :-).
[12:33] <seb128> jdub: around ?
[12:37] <Evaso> seb128: how gnome-volume-manger/pmount handle /dev/packetcdvd devices?
[12:37] <seb128> that would be a question for pitti
[12:38] <sivang> Evaso: as I said, mail the devel list or talk to pitti tommorow morning :)
[12:39] <dholbach> seb128: do you know if gnome/help-installation would break, if upstream stored it in   help/<app>/<lang> instead of  help/<app> ?
[12:39] <jdub> seb128: yo
[12:40] <seb128> dholbach: no idea, why ?
[12:40] <seb128> jdub: hey :) About the theme, pmi has sleep/hibernate actions, dunno if you want 2 actions in gdm
[12:41] <dholbach> seb128: i'm busy with coaster and the installation of the gnome-help always fails
[12:41] <seb128> how ?
[12:41] <dholbach> right now i patched the tarball to use help/<lang>
[12:42] <dholbach> but it's still wrong
[12:42] <jdub> seb128: yeah, will have to sort that out
[12:42] <jdub> seb128: all mixed up with potential theme changes, etc. ;)
[12:42] <dholbach> i dont understand the gnome-help-*omf*-stuff yet
[12:42] <seb128> let me know if I need to add an hibernate mode to gdm 
[12:42] <seb128> atm there is a suspend action
[12:43] <seb128> if we want both suspend/hibernate we need to hack it :)
[12:43] <seb128> dholbach: I don't get your issue, yelp doesn't list it ?
[12:43] <dholbach> seb128: no, the package isnt built :-)
[12:44] <jdub> seb128: i think it's worth doing that anyway, for future use
[12:44] <dholbach> seb128: just wanted to know if you knew about any issues regarding help/* in the wrong directories
[12:44] <seb128> the make install should do that correctly, the package doesn't change anythin here
[12:44] <dholbach> seb128: ok, will try again
[12:45] <seb128> jdub: right
[12:49] <Evaso> i must to go, bye guys
[12:52] <doko_> elmo: dia built ok on all archs, please sync libcairo
[12:52] <lapoman> hi
[12:53] <lapoman> any one here can give me some advice on how to set up powernowd to lower down the cpufreq if the temperature is higher than some critical val?
[12:54] <lapoman> I am testing hoary on laptop...
[12:56] <tuxdisciple> lapoman, As am I... sound is very broken for me so far :/
[12:57] <lapoman> for me all is good except two little things, well one is actually not so little, it gets my machine stuck!
[12:57] <lapoman> each time I unplug the external harddisk...
[12:57] <tuxdisciple> Anyone have wisdom as it relates to getting hoary to play nice on a thinkpad? cs46xx is loading fine, but alsa just barfs on and on about not having a sound card
[12:58] <lapoman> I come from suse, and I do miss Yast!!! Ubuntu should have something like it...
[01:04] <tuxdisciple> hehe
[01:04] <tuxdisciple> I think I may be looking at a kernel recompile... 
[01:04] <sladen> and makes it appear to have 'intelligence'
[01:05] <lamont> tuxdisciple: nah.. much simpler.
[01:05] <lamont> 1) make sure you have linux-image-2.6.10-4_2.6.10-23 installed
[01:05] <lamont> then wait for me to finish building the -24 candidate
[01:05] <tuxdisciple> lol
[01:06] <lamont> of course, -23 needs to be booted with 'noinotify' unless you like pain
[01:06] <lamont> then install the -24 candidate
[01:06] <tuxdisciple> I'll update to it right now... 
[01:06] <lamont> but don't reboot into -24, and see if modprobe will install modules, or if it bitches
[01:06] <lamont> (that is, we need to verify that modules from -24 can load on a -23 kernel)
[01:07] <tuxdisciple> so... update to -23, alter menu.lst to make sure it does noinotify as a kernel option I assume...
[01:07] <tuxdisciple> then update to -24 and try to modprobe will install modules
[01:07] <sivang> tseng: how do I install build deps of a package? (it saves alot awful build env installs by hand ) 
[01:08] <tuxdisciple> I'll need to modprobe with a full path to the -24 modules won't I?
[01:08] <ogra> sivang: sudo apt-get build-dep <packagename>
[01:08] <sivang> ogra: thanks, I did "build-deps" didn't work :)
[01:08] <dholbach> sivang: let pbuilder do it for you :-)
[01:09] <sivang> dholbach: ah, you're right, I should set it up but not now :) maybe tommorow
[01:09] <tuxdisciple> lamont, That sound right ?
[01:10] <dholbach> sivang: the instruction on wiki/PbuilderHowto is very straight-forward
[01:12] <lamont> won't need full path - the -24 candidate overwrites the -23 modules...
[01:12] <lamont> hence the need to test
[01:12] <sivang> dholbach: I Kniw, been thinking of doing it for quite some time now
[01:12] <tuxdisciple> Okay, I'm updated to -23, rebooting now, and I'll be back in a minute
[01:21] <lamont> ah, there he is
[01:21] <tuxdisciple> hehe
[01:21] <tuxdisciple> Had to get a piece of pizza
[01:21] <lamont> ah, ok
[01:21] <dholbach> oh... pizza
[01:21] <dholbach> yum
[01:21] <tuxdisciple> Eww... fedora
[01:22] <tuxdisciple> lamont, just let me know when I can apt
[01:23] <lamont> yeah - could take it a little bit...
[01:23] <dholbach> tuxdisciple: i was just in a state of absolute delight, thanks for spoiling it
[01:23] <lamont> which kernel flavor are you using?
[01:23] <tuxdisciple> ubuntu one
[01:23] <lamont> (power3, power4, or powerpc?)
[01:23] <tuxdisciple> me?
[01:23] <tuxdisciple> x86
[01:23] <lamont> tuxdisciple: I need ppc testing - already did i386 testing...
[01:23] <mdz> daniels: did we change the way that we guess the keyboard layout in X anytime recently?
[01:23] <mdz> daniels: I'm ending up with qwerty
[01:23] <lamont> I don't _have_ a ppc box that's happy...
[01:24] <tuxdisciple> lamont, Yeah.. but I need a working cs46xx / alsa config :)
[01:24] <tuxdisciple> dholbach, Sorry .. yum brings back bad memories of a fedora attempt
[01:24] <daniels> mdz: i haven't uploaded x in ages, but i know why it's broken now
[01:24] <dholbach> tuxdisciple: i can imagine :-)
[01:24] <daniels> mdz: realised the other day that we were testing for en_AU, en_US, de_DE, et al
[01:24] <daniels> mdz: working out how that interacts with utf-8 is left as an exercise to the reader
[01:25] <tuxdisciple> hoary is great except alsa refuses to see my sound card
[01:25] <ogra> night all
[01:25] <daniels> mdz: (this is why we were *always* getting us on the live cd)
[01:25] <dholbach> sleep tight ogra 
[01:25] <lamont> mdz have a ppc box?
[01:25] <daniels> mdz: as for dvorak, i honestly don't know how you ever ended up getting a dvorak layout, since we test $LANG
[01:26] <tuxdisciple> this is the first distro I actually want to help with testing... I would've with slack earlier on but patrick seems so... beyond me
[01:27] <tuxdisciple> lamont, I do have a nice testbed for some stuff....
[01:28] <tuxdisciple> It will be fun to try Hoary on that thing
[01:28] <lamont> hrm.. really need a new monitor
[01:30] <bluefoxicy> the i386 2.6.10-4 kernel in hoary is VERIFIABLY BROKEN somewhere.
[01:30] <bluefoxicy> I know because i just installed 32 bit ubuntu
[01:30] <bluefoxicy> tried to log into gnome
[01:30] <tuxdisciple> Did you use the noinotify option?
[01:30] <bluefoxicy> and over several trials it HARD FROZE while loading gnome
[01:31] <bluefoxicy> numlock key did nothing; alt+sysrq+O didn't turn the machine off
[01:31] <bluefoxicy> needed a hard reset (cold boot)
[01:31] <tuxdisciple> bluefoxicy, Try giving it the kernel option 'noinotify' on boot
[01:31] <bluefoxicy> tuxdisciple:  ok
[01:31] <bluefoxicy> tuxdisciple:  it's working on the 64 bit kernel, different / and same /home
[01:32] <bluefoxicy> i'll get to that later though.  It doesn't much matter; I installed a 32 bit system so I can play with xen
[01:32] <tuxdisciple> bluefoxicy, I have the 10-4 running fine, but had the exact same issue
[01:33] <bluefoxicy> i didn't read the topic :) thought it might be a (potentially major) issue you may have missed, looks like you found it though.
[01:40] <dholbach> i'm off to bed, bye everyone
[01:40] <tuxdisciple> lamont, I'm going to build a .10 kernel tree with ALSA and the driver hardcoded in to see if its a module problem, or an alsa related problem (init scripts maybe?)
[01:40] <tuxdisciple> dholbach, Night!
[01:41] <dholbach> bye tuxdisciple 
[01:43] <sivang> jdub: working on #2251, do you know what's the "Edit" subitems are for in gnome-cups-manager? I edited the glad inteface file of gnome-cups-manager and it seems it fscked bit the other itesm. Do you happen to know where is the gnome-cups-manager menubar and items are in code?
[01:44] <sivang> jdub: oops, I Know what the edit are now, just can't figure where the code for the menubar to add options there.
[01:46] <zul> hey
[01:46] <tseng> sivang: yep, you definately want pbuilder
[01:47] <tseng> sivang: saves you pain later when you dont realize you missed a build-dep (you already had it installed as a dep of something else)
[01:47] <tseng> not that ive ever done this
[01:47] <zul> of course not
[01:47] <lamont> zul: any ppc boxen there?
[01:47] <zul> lamont: nope just x86 and sparc
[01:48] <lamont> mjg59: *$^(%)^_&+_)(%^$&)*^_(&+)*_)%^(_+*+^_*%^(&)
[01:48] <zul> svenl around get him to try...
[01:48] <lamont>   AS      arch/ppc/kernel/swsusp.o
[01:48] <lamont> arch/ppc/kernel/swsusp.S: Assembler messages:
[01:48] <lamont> arch/ppc/kernel/swsusp.S:139: Error: Unrecognized opcode: `dssall'
[01:48] <lamont> first it has to actually build
[01:48] <tuxdisciple> lamont, :/
[01:48] <lamont> Kamion: you around?
[01:48] <zul> oh well thats a problem
[01:48] <lamont> zul: on the bright side, i386 is a non-abievent
[01:49] <zul> sweet...so the patched work
[01:49] <lamont> yes
[01:49] <lamont> hrm... I could just disable SWSUSP on power3...
[01:49] <zul> is this with the altivec stuff?
[01:50] <lamont> this is mjg59's hibernate patch
[01:50] <elmo_> lamont: that's the power3 haiving POWERPC_PMAC enabled that you and kamion were talking about yesterday?
[01:50] <zul> ah...ok..
[01:51] <lamont> elmo_: different source file
[01:51] <lamont> (specifically, the swsuspend file)
[01:51] <mjg59> lamont: Ah, sorry - I thought I only asked for it on powerpc?
[01:51] <mjg59> (rather than power3)
[01:51] <lamont> ah - power4 shouldn't have it either?
[01:51] <mjg59> No - the comments say it doesn't work on G5 yet
[01:51] <lamont>  The only config change is that the powerpc kernel (not power3
[01:51] <lamont> or power4, and probably not powerpc-smp) should have...
[01:51] <lamont> DOH!
[01:52] <mjg59> Yay I win
[01:52] <mjg59> Haha
[01:52] <zul> http://www.sisk.pl/kernel/patches/2.6.11-rc3-mm1/swsusp-use-list-resume-v4.patch
[01:52] <zul> er..
[01:53] <lamont> mjg59: you wanna do the happy-test for me?
[01:53] <mjg59> lamont: Which happy test?
[01:54] <lamont> install -23, boot with 'nonotify' (so that you live), install -24 (once it finishes building...), no reboot, make sure that modprobe is still happy
[01:54] <mjg59> lamont: Sure, just let me find another box
[01:54] <bob2> thom: are you using netapplet regularily?
[01:54] <tuxdisciple> lamont, you still need me to try that?
[01:55] <lamont> tuxdisciple: only on ppc
[01:55] <tuxdisciple> lamont, architecturist!
[01:55] <bob2> thom: it seems really damn crashy nowadays.  also, you didn't tell mjg59 that you appletified it.
[01:55] <lamont> tuxdisciple: you're welcome to try it on x86, but I know it works there...
[01:58] <tseng> lamont: only if you arent up for loosing all your changes and grabbing a fresh archive
[01:58] <lamont> tseng: yeah.  rm -rf, dpkg-source -x, baz get, rsync -av
[01:59] <lamont> piece of cake.
[01:59] <lamont> heh
[01:59] <lamont> I've had wors
[01:59] <lamont> e
[02:00] <schweeb> tseng: hey, how much patching and stuff is involved in packaging mono for debian/ubuntu? been considering making some highly unofficial 1.1.4 debs
[02:00] <tseng> schweeb: well. the build system for 1.1.4 is completely different
[02:01] <tseng> which is a good and bad thing
[02:01] <schweeb> that's what I gathered
[02:01] <tseng> bad in that the old package probably isnt a very useful base
[02:01] <schweeb> yea
[02:01] <tseng> good in that the days of bootstrapping mcs are over
[02:01] <schweeb> heh
[02:01] <tseng> dont say mcs too loud around lamont 
[02:01] <schweeb> hah, why?
[02:01] <tseng> he was the sucker that got stuck building it
[02:02] <schweeb> lol
[02:02] <tseng> http://wiki.debian.net/?MonoDebianPlan
[02:02] <schweeb> yea, they include mono-lite or something to bootstrap mcs now, don't they
[02:02] <tseng> youll want to read that, to understand why the current debian mono project is in a state of flux for now
[02:02] <tseng> no, its all one source package now
[02:04] <lamont> is there a ghc6 package for amd64 lying around anywhere?
[02:05] <schweeb> tseng: heh, well, I'll look into packaging 1.1.4, but maybe I'll just mock up some dummy packages to solve dependencies (I'm a bit lazy)
[02:06] <daniels> lamont: EMM CEE ESS
[02:06] <tseng> schweeb: ok. probably want to start from scratch
[02:06] <lamont> daniels: remind me to steal a couple of geforce cards from you while I'm in the neighborhood.
[02:06] <lamont> or stop saying that word
[02:06] <schweeb> I've done lots of packages, but all of them have been single package binaries... this'll be a big leap for me hehe
[02:06] <daniels> lamont: sure ... i'll buy you the drink of your choice while you're here :) i don't want 'em
[02:07] <lamont> woot
[02:07] <daniels> lamont: i just got the fastest card known to man (an ati card) today
[02:07] <daniels> so i have no idea what i would want with pci geforces
[02:07] <HrdwrBoB> daniels: we could summon chthulu
[02:07] <daniels> HrdwrBoB: good plan
[02:08] <tuxdisciple> pci Geforces... so many monitors...
[02:08] <mjg59> lamont: Ok, I've got a machine running -23
[02:09] <lamont> I have one building the first of 6 kernels. :-(
[02:09] <jdub> Mithrandir: why doesn't ssl-cert depend on openssl?
[02:10] <lamont> mjg59: which, depending on your sleep cycle, could mean that you could catch a nights sleep :-)
[02:10] <mjg59> Ha
[02:10] <mjg59> lamont: I'm leaving for Brussels in 8 hours
[02:10] <mjg59> I guess I /could/ take the scratch laptop as well...
[02:11] <mjg59> Actually, I'll leave it up and then test it from there
[02:11] <lamont> pretty sure we'll be done before then
[02:11] <lamont> any chance you have both power3 and powerpc kicking around?
[02:11] <tuxdisciple> mjg59, flying? Or you live nearby?
[02:11] <lamont> s/power3/power[34] 
[02:12] <lamont> tuxdisciple: england, brussels, practically on top of each other
[02:12] <mjg59> tuxdisciple: Train
[02:12] <lamont> sere
[02:12] <Clint> it's true
[02:12] <lamont> see, even
[02:12] <Clint> every time I go to brussels I end up in england
[02:12] <Clint> literally every time
[02:12] <zul> i almost went to boarding school in england
[02:12] <mjg59> tuxdisciple: even better, underwater train
[02:12] <tuxdisciple> Didn't realize you were in england
[02:12] <lamont> we need to get Clint a better train guide.
[02:12] <tuxdisciple> CHUNNEL!
[02:12] <AndyR> hi all
[02:12] <Clint> no, those were airplanes
[02:12] <mjg59> lamont: Heh. I was sort of planning on fitting sleep into that 8 hours.
[02:13] <mjg59> And packing. And washing.
[02:13] <lamont> mjg59: pack now.  sleep now. :-)
[02:13] <mjg59> Ha
[02:13] <schweeb> tseng: sounds like they like the 1.1.x series a lot better at least... more FHS friendly
[02:13] <mjg59> lamont: Ok, we'll see. I have one PPC box, but can't reboot it at the moment (sorry)
[02:13] <lamont> np
[02:14] <mjg59> Need to convince Mark to get me a Mac, obviously...
[02:14] <lamont> at least, I expect that a collored G3 is power3...
[02:16] <mjg59> lamont: Mm? G3 is powerpc, not power3
[02:16] <mjg59> power3 is an IBM workstation and supercomputer CPU
[02:16] <mjg59> G5 is power4 because of the move to ppc64
[02:17] <lamont> ah, nm then.
[02:18] <mjg59> I'd be surprised if there are many people using Ubuntu with power3s...
[02:19] <lamont> '3' in the name
[02:19] <lamont> damn keyboard
[02:21] <lamont> someone distract elmo - I'm gonna go bootstrap ghc6
[02:22] <tuxdisciple> elmo_: Look! An elephant!
[02:23] <aj> isn't elmo asleep?
[02:23] <aj> just do it verrrry verrry quietly
[02:23] <daniels> it is 0123, of course
[02:25] <jdub> aj: haw haw re: linux-aus
[02:26] <aj> jdub: ?
[02:26] <aj> oh, AFUC?
[02:26] <aj> i thought you were mocking my mad budgeting prowess
[02:27] <AndyFitz> #linux-aus
[02:27] <AndyFitz> is that a channel ?
[02:28] <aj> it's also a list
[02:28] <AndyFitz> hey what do ya know it is 
[02:29] <AndyFitz> met an ubuntu user out skating last night. picked him easily since he was wearing a tux t-shirt
[02:29] <AndyFitz> also lansmash.com  now use ubuntu for their ut2004 & quake 3 servers
[02:30] <tuxdisciple> ubuntu is such a wonderfully concieved distro... I am so glad to be out of gentoo hell
[02:30] <lamont> hrmpf.  ghc6 gets to wait for tomorrow, it appears
[02:32] <tuxdisciple> my poor laptop is hurting compiling this kernel...
[02:41] <helix> AndyFitz: skating?
[02:42] <helix> skateboarding?
[02:42] <AndyFitz> nah rec skating  ( rollerblading )
[02:43] <helix> oh
[02:43] <helix> oh well
[02:43] <AndyFitz> big groups meet up on tues wed and thursdays for a 3 hour skate around brisbane at night
[02:44] <helix> any skateboarders?
[02:45] <tuxdisciple> I tried once.... I still feel the bruises..
[02:45] <AndyFitz> yeah skateboarders around the bottom of the good will bridge most wednesdays from 5-8
[02:45] <helix> heh, cool
[03:02] <mjg59> There's a mad Australian conspiracy on debian-vote
[03:02] <jdub> :-)
[03:02] <jdub> uh huh :-)
[03:03] <jdub> flumotion in action: http://70.85.31.216:8800/
[03:05] <zul> australians are mad :)
[03:05] <lamont> we're voting again?
[03:05] <aj> lamont: of course, it's been weeks
[03:06] <lamont> heh
[03:07] <sivang> hey jdub ! I can see you 
[03:08] <sivang> jdub: man, how do you get that audio quality?
[03:08] <mjg59> jdub: What's that stream in?
[03:08] <daniels> mjg59: theora/vorbis
[03:08] <jdub> theora/vorbis
[03:09] <mjg59> Ah. I wonder what I'm missing, then.
[03:09] <jdub> sivang: that's via the shitty microphone too; it is better when i source it directly from the stream
[03:09] <mjg59> jdub: Oh, or were you streaming the visualisation?
[03:09] <jdub> no, it's just webcam/mic
[03:10] <sivang> jdub: very cool :)
[03:10] <mjg59> Right, in which case my totem got the audio stream and not the video stream
[03:10] <jdub> so you can't see me sticking my fingers up at you
[03:11] <zul> alright i have to go pay the mortgage bbl
[03:11] <sivang> anyway I'm out for tonight
[03:11] <sivang> night all!
[03:11] <tuxdisciple> night!
[03:11] <mjg59> jdub: Indeed not
[03:11] <sivang> night tuxdisciple 
[03:11] <lamont> night sivang 
[03:14] <tuxdisciple> heh... kernel finally built... now the modules...
[03:41] <tuxdisciple> brb
[03:50] <YokoZar> hah, I just got a spam sent to a debian bug mail address
[03:51] <YokoZar> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=112555
[03:59] <tseng> schweeb: yes
[04:00] <Mithrandir> jdub: because it's buggy.
[04:02] <lamont> daniels: is 6869 likely to be the inotify issue?
[04:04] <zul> hola
[04:04] <lamont> evening zul
[04:05] <jdub> Mithrandir: without it installed, ssl-cert just breaks
[04:05] <jdub> Mithrandir: or are there other options?
[04:05] <jdub> Mithrandir: regardless, it means the package that depends on ssl-cert also needs to depend on openssl
[04:06] <Mithrandir> jdub: I know; I think it's fixed in Debian
[04:06] <jdub> ahar
[04:06] <jdub> oh
[04:06] <jdub> stupid english
[04:06] <jdub> i thought you were saying "it doesn't depend on openssl because openssl is buggy" :)
[04:06] <Mithrandir> jdub: just sync -11 and it should fix it.
[04:06] <Mithrandir> jdub: ah, sorry.
[04:06] <jdub> elmo_: ping!
[04:06] <Mithrandir> jdub: http://packages.qa.debian.org/s/ssl-cert/news/1.html
[04:07] <lamont> mdz/jdub: could we have a BoF on bastard-children architectures UDU?
[04:07] <jdub> hell yeah
[04:08] <lamont>  /usr/sbin/livecd.sh: line 65: sudo: command not found
[04:08] <lamont> oops
[04:08] <lamont> jdub: there are a few things that do things that are guaranteed to be broken on the poor unloved bastards, instead of generally working.
[04:09] <jdub> due to our changes, or...?
[04:09] <jdub> dmidecode ;)
[04:09] <lamont> our changes.
[04:09] <lamont> ubuntu-meta, debootstrap
[04:09] <lamont> xresprobe
[04:10] <lamont> console-data
[04:10] <jdub> yeah
[04:10] <lamont> actually, daniels has the fix for xresprobe, and I think was going to just include it
[04:11] <lamont> then there's the whole cluster surrounding bastard archs without oo.o available, and what that really means to ubuntu-*
[04:11] <Mithrandir> lamont: I forgot to bring the ultra home last night :(  sorry.  Going to fosdem today, so it's probably not really worth bothering as fabio gets back soonish.
[04:11] <lamont> Mithrandir: yeah
[04:12] <lamont> Mithrandir: I should really fetch some bits and install the SS20 that I have
[04:12] <jdub> Mithrandir: ooh, rock! say hello to everyone for us :)
[04:12] <Mithrandir> jdub: bringing a small bunch of Ubuntu CDs too, so I can spread the love.
[04:13] <lamont> my kids school is dumping windoze in favor of linux in march.  Somehow I doubt they've picked ubuntu, but the IT specialist has a copy of the CD as of today
[04:13] <jdub> s/spread the love/pick up girls/
[04:13] <lamont> had heard of ubuntu, too
[04:13] <lamont> jdub: but no picking up love and such, ehy?
[04:13] <Mithrandir> jdub: dude, I have a girlfriend already. :)
[04:14] <jdub> Mithrandir: but we know the real reason why you're taking ubuntu cds to fosdem ;)
[04:14] <Mithrandir> jdub: oh?
[04:14] <HrdwrBoB> lol pick up girls with ubuntu CDs
[04:15] <zul> Mithrandir: convert those gentoo users while you are there mmm..kay/
[04:15] <Mithrandir> zul: I'm not sure I dare venture into the gentoo room.  They might recompile me or something. :)
[04:15] <zul> Mithrandir: even "optomize" you?
[04:15] <Mithrandir> that too
[04:16] <Mithrandir> tseng: I was compiled long time ago, my source is buried within me and is non-free. (:
[04:17] <HrdwrBoB> haha
[04:17] <HrdwrBoB> actually the EULA you sign when you give samples says otherwise
[04:17] <Mithrandir> HrdwrBoB: I haven't given any samples.
[04:18] <HrdwrBoB> lucky you :)
[04:18] <Mithrandir> jdub: somebody should implement an rsync backend for gnomevfs.
[04:18] <HrdwrBoB> never a blood test?
[04:18] <Mithrandir> HrdwrBoB: had those, but never signed anything.
[04:18] <HrdwrBoB> ahh
[04:18] <jdub> Mithrandir: what would it rsync against?
[04:19] <daniels> lamont: yeah
[04:19] <Mithrandir> jdub: rsync is faster than ssh copying and it means I don't lose stuff when it breaks.
[04:19] <HrdwrBoB> sorry, actually the problem was after it's removed frin your body you have no logal right to it (in australia)
[04:19] <jdub> Mithrandir: what would it rsync against? :)
[04:20] <Mithrandir> jdub: whatever you tried to connect to. :)
[04:20] <Mithrandir> jdub: I tend to rsync against, say golem.intern.err.no and shonap.err.no, over ssh.
[04:20] <jdub> Mithrandir: and locally?
[04:20] <lamont> daniels: woot
[04:20] <Mithrandir> jdub: it'd probably need some way to say "resume this transfer" and "sync those trees".
[04:21] <Mithrandir> but, breakfast.
[04:21] <jdub> this is why i ask... it ends up being a lot more than just a gnome-vfs backend :)
[04:25] <Mithrandir> jdub: nautilus backend, whatever. :)  ssh copying through nautilus is currently fairly useless since it's so slow
[04:25] <Mithrandir> and it causes nautilus to crash
[04:25] <robertj> Mith: my experience with gnomevfs is that it is totally unusable for anything
[04:25] <jdub> hrm, works ok here
[04:26] <Mithrandir> jdub: it's about 1/3 to 1/5 of the speed I get with rsync or tar + ssh
[04:27] <Mithrandir> haven't tried with plain sftp, since the cli sftp client suck. :)
[04:29] <robertj> Mith: is there something in specific that has caused vfs handlers to break? I'm pretty sure everything is installed and that I have had similar problems with fresh installs from array
[04:30] <Mithrandir> robertj: unsure, I haven't started debugging it.  It takes a bit of courage to work myself up to work on this kind of stuff. :)
[04:31] <robertj> Yeah
[04:32] <robertj> I don't think all the session handlers are even registered
[04:33] <lamont> jdub: finally sent you mail wrt kernel-team
[04:33] <lamont> doh
[04:34] <jdub> haha
[04:41] <robertj> does anyone know if krb5kdc can be significantly slimmed down?
[04:41] <robertj> in terms of memory footprint
[04:49] <jdub> yo ogra 
[04:49] <zul> hey ogra bye ogra
[05:32] <jdub> lamont: still around?
[05:32] <jdub> yo drbyte 
[05:32] <drbyte> hi jdub 
[05:33] <drbyte> no, i haven't strayed away from ubuntu. i will definitely be building the UN cd using the livecd system; after i update the end user material first
[05:33] <jdub> :-)
[05:33] <jdub> with hoary or warty?
[05:33] <drbyte> i'm still bad in the sense that i want to do ubuntu kernel work, but haven't popped ubuntu/ppc on yet. i will when i get back to melb next week
[05:33] <drbyte> hoary
[05:33] <jdub> you should *totally* use the hoary livecd
[05:33] <drbyte> when is the release date?
[05:34] <lamont> yeah
[05:34] <lamont> jdub^^
[05:34] <jdub> april 6 man
[05:34] <jdub> lamont: will kernel-team be an open list?
[05:35] <lamont> I don't see why not...
[05:35] <drbyte> hmm. i should release a beta next week. with current hoary
[05:35] <drbyte> oh, there's a kernel-team list ?
[05:35] <jdub> yeah, preview is march 9, same day as gnome release
[05:35] <lamont> jdub: although, is there an address that just goes to all the moderators?
[05:35] <jdub> lamont: yeah, want to point a few people at it
[05:35] <lamont> it's already public
[05:36] <lamont> intention is to use that to coordiate/plan kernel stuff
[05:36] <jdub> lamont: kernel-team-owner goes to the admins
[05:36] <lamont> subscription preseeded with the kernel team
[05:36] <jdub> no, that's just you
[05:36] <jdub> kernel-team-admin goes to the admins
[05:36] <lamont> right - didn't want to make the other guys owner until they wanted it...
[05:36] <jdub> i forget if there's a similar one for just the moderators
[05:36] <jdub> lamont: ok, thanks
[05:36] <jdub> drbyte: dude, you should sign up to the kernel-team mailing list! :)
[05:37] <lamont> and kernel-team@ubuntu.com works? (depricated, of course), or doesn't?
[05:37] <drbyte> ok, i shall do that now.
[05:37] <jdub> kernel-team@lists.ubuntu.com
[05:37] <jdub> i don't control @ubuntu.com
[05:37] <jdub> that'd be an elmo_ task
[05:37] <lamont> because k-t@u.c is in the baz archive name...
[05:37] <jdub> aha
[05:37] <lamont> of course, we could just branch it... :-)
[05:37] <jdub> :-)
[05:38] <drbyte> done. am on the list
[05:38] <jdub> lamont: by jove i think you've got it! :)
[05:38] <lamont> woo hoo... 91 hours to go on my hoary-live download that I'm supposed to send to school with my daughter tomorrow...
[05:38] <lamont> hrm...
[05:43] <lamont> doh - can't send that livecd to school with her - it has the inotify issue... sigh
[05:46] <drbyte> lamont: do you have to manually add me? i subscribed but got no mail from the list (i.e. saying a confirmation or anthing)
[05:46] <lamont> shouldn't have to....
[05:49] <jdub> hey man, i didn't put the inordinately-easy-to-reproduce locking bug patch into the kernel package! :)
[05:49] <lamont> jdub: shush
[05:49] <lamont> drbyte: I can't see any reason it shouldn't have sent you a confirmation message
[05:50] <lamont> jdub: about to upload -24 to fix that too.
[05:50] <jdub> rad :)
[05:50] <jdub> fix or "fix"? :)
[05:51] <lamont> sledge hammer
[05:52] <jdub> oh well
[05:52] <jdub> rml is working on a lockless version atm
[05:52] <magnon> morning, jeff
[05:52] <jdub> yo magnon 
[05:52] <lamont> jdub: once there's a working version, I'd love to include it
[05:52] <jdub> so either we get that, or stick with dnotify
[05:53] <lamont> yep
[05:53] <lamont> in -24, you can add 'inotify' to the boot options, if you want to crash your machine...
[05:54] <drbyte> lamont: weird. byte@bytebot.net was the address i used
[05:56] <lamont> jdub: wanna see if you can subscribe to kernel-team in one of your lowly personas, or if it just has something against drbyte?
[05:57] <lamont> jdub: and you can say 'no' and I'll do check it myself...
[05:57] <drbyte> it doesn't like fedora people ;-)
[05:58] <jdub> ok
[06:07] <jdub> i got a confirm email
[06:07] <lamont> so it's drbyte...
[06:08] <drbyte> ok, i'll try again
[06:08] <drbyte> with another addy this time
[06:08] <drbyte> lamont: do manually unsubscribe byte@bytebot.net if it got subscribed 
[06:09] <drbyte> whadya know, current address works.
[06:10] <lamont> only one of you there
[06:11] <drbyte> yah, byte@aeon.com.my just been added. oh well. ubuntu-devel works with the bytebot one. weird
[06:15] <drbyte> lamont: just got two subscription requests for bytebot.net now :P i'll just not respond. weird weird.
[06:18] <lamont> maybe something is greylisting in there somewhere?
[07:06] <YokoZar> If I uploaded my public key to sourceforge and had it sign my uploads, would that be useful for the Ubuntu trust network?
[08:01] <doko> good morning, all
[08:05] <d3vic3> morning 
[08:29] <pitti> Morning
[08:34] <doko> moin pitti
[08:34] <pitti> Hi doko
[09:02] <sivang> morning all
[09:06] <pitti> Hi Sivan
[09:07] <sivang> Hi Martin! 
[09:08] <azeem> so, who will come to FOSDEM?
[09:08] <mdz> morning
[09:10] <pitti> Hi mdz
[09:12] <abelli> pitti: ding
[09:13] <pitti> abelli: dong (but phone)
[09:14] <pitti> Hi dholbach 
[09:14] <abelli> pitti: tu tu tu
[09:14] <abelli> ...
[09:14] <dholbach> hellas pitti!
[09:14] <dholbach> hai everyone
[09:14] <abelli> dholbach: bon jour
[09:14] <dholbach> guten morgen, abelli  :-)
[09:15] <abelli> pitti: could you briefly describe what you will be implementing in your kernel
[09:15] <abelli> and what is already implemented... i need to study
[09:18] <abelli> dholbach: at university ive been told 
[09:18] <abelli> that us italian student can get a parallel french degree only by working for a brief amount of time
[09:18] <abelli> in france
[09:18] <abelli> can you tell me where is the trick?
[09:19] <dholbach> abelli: you already worked in france? :-)
[09:19] <abelli> mmm no... im still studying
[09:20] <abelli> but they say, there's this agreement between france and italy..
[09:20] <dholbach> maybe you should just try it
[09:20] <dholbach> :-)
[09:20] <abelli> and since italian universities are getting worse and worse..
[09:20] <abelli> i was wondering what's going on in france..
[09:20] <abelli> why did they sign this agreement
[09:21] <dholbach> althought I'd love to live in Paris... for a while
[09:21] <abelli> ...doh..
[09:21] <abelli> statistically, how long german phone  calls last?
[09:22] <dholbach> wow... good question
[09:22] <dholbach> i guess my calls varied between 1m and 6h30m ;-)
[09:22] <abelli> mmm..
[09:22] <pitti> abelli: Hi, how were your exams?
[09:22] <abelli> dholbach: see.. pitti is much faster..
[09:23] <abelli> pitti: well... 3 hours for 2 exercises..
[09:23] <abelli> but i finished it all 
[09:23] <pitti> abelli: right now I ported the grsecurity patch to the Ubuntu kernel and built it for all i386 and ppc arches
[09:23] <pitti> abelli: cool, congrats
[09:23] <abelli> pitti: thank you
[09:24] <pitti> abelli: TODO: vesafb breakage, build firmware images, build and test for amd64 and other platforms
[09:24] <abelli> dholbach: dunno?
[09:24] <abelli> pitti: ok.
[09:24] <pitti> abelli: oh, and we need restricted modules
[09:25] <abelli> ..about arches.. i can provide only sparc, arm, 
[09:26] <abelli> and a retrocomputing friend.. is giving me a vax.. but i dont know it can stand your work
[09:26] <abelli> :)
[09:28] <abelli> pitti: i was also thinking about an testing ubuntu base installs.. for open ports et similia
[09:28] <abelli> what do you think
[09:34] <abelli> did you receive my email?
[09:35] <pitti> I?
[09:37] <abelli> yes
[09:53] <pitti> Hi mvo
[09:53] <mvo> hi pitti 
[09:54] <dholbach> hai mvo!
[09:54] <jordi> hmm
[09:55] <jordi> does anyone know if any of the gettext utilities lets you fill in msgstrs with whatever is in msgid?
[09:56] <mvo> hey dholbach 
[09:57] <jordi> mu!
[09:57] <jordi> mvo: dude, more string changes
[10:00] <mvo> jordi: yeah, sorry for that. small fixes, you probably only need to remove the fuzzy and you are done. but string-freeze is coming today
[10:01] <jordi> mvo: yeah, I see that. Not so bad then :)
[10:01] <mvo> jordi: you will get a mail today (about the freeze) :)
[10:02] <jordi> too late :)
[10:03] <jordi> hmm, 5 new strings
[10:04] <mvo> probably strings that where forgoten before. the italian translator did a great job going over all strings and checking spelling and context
[10:04] <jordi> cool
[10:10] <jordi> oh great  I just finished downloading a ia64 hoary iso
[10:10] <jordi> instead of i386
[10:12] <mvo> heh
[10:19] <dholbach> can anybody tell me, why this   >  http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/r/ruby-gnome2/0.11.0-1/ruby-gnome2_0.11.0-1_20041209-0932-amd64-successful  <   is considered to be "sucessful"?
[10:19] <dholbach> just search for "error:"
[10:22] <dholbach> this is the reason, why  alexandria  fails (as seen on ubuntu-users@ ) - debians ruby-gnome-0.11.0-3 doesn't do better ... unfortunately
[10:30] <pitti> ogra: here?
[10:38] <ogra> pitti: morning
[10:39] <dholbach> hi ogra!
[10:39] <ogra> hi
[10:39] <pitti> ogra: I currently prepare a new hal with your patch. Anything still open or can I upload it if it works?
[10:39] <ogra> you can upload it....
[10:50] <Kamion> lamont: still up?
[10:50] <Kamion> probably not
[10:50] <Treenaks> 06:31  * lamont sleeps
[10:51] <Kamion> ah yes
[11:08] <dholbach> hai seb128 
[11:08] <seb128> morning
[11:09] <pitti> Morning seb128 
[11:12] <pitti> elmo_: konversation and squid syncs, please (Ubuntu overrides ok)
[11:14] <seb128> hi pitti
[11:14] <seb128> ups :p
[11:14] <seb128> thom: around ?
[11:15] <pitti> seb128: kword? what did I do with this?
[11:16] <seb128> konversation = k* (word with a k)
[11:16] <seb128> :p
[11:16] <dholbach> so pitti is still pristine
[11:16] <doko> elmo: ping?
[11:17] <pitti> seb128: ah, you mean a "K" word. I see :-)
[11:17] <seb128> :)
[11:17] <seb128> rooooh
[11:17] <seb128> that's not corporate :p
[11:18] <seb128> (bah, if people use it perhaps I'll get less GNOME bugs :p)
[11:18] <Treenaks> seb128: korporate?
[11:18] <dholbach> hehe
[11:18] <dholbach> Treenaks: don't upset him!
[11:18] <dholbach> :-p
[11:23] <pitti> seb128: that's why I use Gnome now :-)
[11:23] <pitti> seb128: to bug you with something :-)
[11:23] <seb128> ah ah
[11:24] <Treenaks> pitti: everyone knows fvwm is BugFree
[11:24] <davyd> quick ubuntu bug dudes... kernel packages, like say sl-modem-daemon, can you make them depend on linux-image or kernel-image
[11:24] <abelli> ive got problems with the wiki, who should i speak to?
[11:24] <pitti> Treenaks: well, there is not much what could contain bugs :-)
[11:24] <dholbach> abelli: #ubuntu-doc
[11:25] <davyd> so that when I dist-upgrade, it doesn't suck in a Ubuntu kernel that, while great, is missing symbols I need (stupid Linux's fault) and break my system
[11:25] <Treenaks> pitti: no new features = no new bugs, too
[11:25] <davyd> please
[11:25] <abelli> ..i mean.. whos the technical administrator
[11:25] <Kamion> davyd: is that a kernel module?
[11:25] <Kamion> sl-modem-daemon, I mean
[11:25] <davyd> Kamion: it depends on a kernel module
[11:25] <davyd> I thought it was a bit of a nutty dependancy myself
[11:25] <Kamion> davyd: if it's not a kernel module itself, it should not depend on kernel modules or kernel packages
[11:25] <Kamion> for the exact reason you cite
[11:25] <davyd> ok then
[11:26] <davyd> it's a new thing... I assumed there was a reason for it
[11:26] <davyd> that said, I should try out the latest nVidia drivers, see if they run on my machine, then I could switch back to Ubuntu kernels
[11:26] <pitti> elmo_: a2ps sync, please
[11:27] <Kamion> haha he said "stable kernel"
[11:27] <Kamion> the kernel's module ABI has *never* been stable
[11:27] <davyd> "Hello vague possiblility of use of closed drivers through a compilable wrapper, we don't like you, so prepare to be fucked up the arse"
[11:27] <davyd> Kamion: yes, but it vaguely worked
[11:27] <davyd> if you had a nice wrapper
[11:27] <Kamion> the stability, if any, is in the interaction with userspace, not in the interaction with modules
[11:28] <davyd> now they don't seem to care for any out of tree drivers
[11:28] <davyd> hell, last time I checked, even three in-tree drivers were uncompilable due to symbols removed in 2.6.10
[11:30] <thom> seb128: sup?
[11:31] <seb128> thom: hey
[11:31] <seb128> the pmi logic seems to be wrong somewhere
[11:31] <seb128> $ /usr/sbin/pmi query foo && echo "OK"
[11:31] <seb128> OK
[11:32] <seb128> dunno, foo is not a known action, but it should not work :)
[11:32] <seb128> s/dunno//
[11:32] <thom> hrm
[11:32] <thom> yes, that's probably a bug
[11:32] <seb128> BTW I've hacked gdm
[11:33] <seb128> I'll upload a new version now with gdmflexiserver suspend/hibernate action
[11:33] <thom> rocking
[11:33] <ogra> yeah
[11:33] <arboretumas> seb128, ji
[11:34] <seb128> ?
[11:36] <mantiena> seb128, I wanna told hi ;) it seems you forgot one thing, which you promised - look at bug http://bugs.debian.org/255232
[11:37] <seb128> after discussion with upstream the consensus seems to be that the current category is the right one
[11:38] <seb128> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=139912
[11:42] <pitti> Riddell: is http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CAN-2004-1145 fixed in Hoary's kdelibs?
[11:42] <mantiena> seb128, most users and developers of other archiving tools, for example ark frok kdeutils don't think so ;)
[11:43] <mantiena> s/frok/from/
[11:44] <seb128> right, you are "most users and developers"
[11:44] <seb128> and kde is a reference
[11:44] <mantiena> seb128, I'm not most users and developers
[11:44] <seb128> feel free to argue in bugzilla.gnome.org
[11:44] <seb128> so you have your point of view
[11:45] <mantiena> seb128, ok, you will change file-roller to system tools category in ubuntu or leave Accessories ?
[11:45] <seb128> I'll let it here
[11:45] <Riddell> pitti: " in Konqueror in KDE 3.3.1" hoary has KDE 3.3.2
[11:46] <seb128> mantiena: why ?
[11:46] <pitti> Riddell: okay, can you please add it to the changelog
[11:46] <pitti> Riddell: thanks
[11:46] <Riddell> pitti: why?  it was never an issue in KDE 3.3.2
[11:47] <pitti> Riddell: the "new upstream version" changelog should say that this version fixes this CAN
[11:47] <mantiena> seb128, in Ubuntu file-roller is in Accessories, while in Debian - in System Tools, it's not good from my point of view
[11:47] <pitti> Riddell: this makes it easier to track bugs
[11:47] <seb128> mantiena: why ?
[11:48] <pitti> Riddell: I add it to the manual override for now, but for later it is always nice to have the CANs in the changelog
[11:48] <pitti> Riddell: this enables automatic health checking (see http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/ubuntu-cve.html
[11:48] <seb128> mantiena: take debian and ubuntu, they don't even have the same top menus
[11:48] <seb128> mantiena: applications/actions in debian, applications/places/system in ubuntu
[11:48] <Riddell> pitti: but the problem was discovered long after 3.3.2 was released.  do I have to make a new upload just to note the CAN doesn't apply in the changelog?
[11:49] <pitti> Riddell: no, no new upload
[11:49] <pitti> Riddell: it's not urgent
[11:49] <pitti> Riddell: just add it to the next upload
[11:49] <Riddell> pitti: ok, I'll try to remember
[11:49] <pitti> Riddell: now it's in my override file anyway
[11:49] <pitti> Riddell: do you use arch/cvs/whatever to manage these packages?
[11:50] <mantiena> seb128, both have same Applications menu and same categories (submenus) in this menu. so, you leave file-roller in one category in ubuntu and in other category in debian ?
[11:50] <seb128> mantiena: I stop trolling here, you are not happy argue upstream
[11:50] <ogra> seb128: if i want a icon in a .desktop file, is the current way to give it the complete path ? or is there a saner way ?
[11:50] <seb128> mantiena: I'm following upstream decision in debian that's all
[11:50] <seb128> mantiena: we make choice in ubuntu
[11:51] <Kamion> pitti: CAN-2004-0969 was fixed in Debian groff 1.18.1.1-2
[11:51] <seb128> ogra: just the icon name without an extension
[11:51] <pitti> Kamion: right, I just added that to my override :-)
[11:51] <Riddell> pitti: no we don't, sounds like a good idea for our KDE 3.4 packages though
[11:51] <pitti> Kamion: I currently walk down the list of open issues and override/patch it
[11:51] <ogra> seb128: and the icon in /usr/share/pixmaps....but its not found then....
[11:51] <seb128> ogra: ?
[11:51] <pitti> Riddell: having a Debian and Ubuntu branch sounds appropriate :-)
[11:51] <Kamion> pitti: *nod*
[11:51] <Riddell> pitti: how easy is arch to learn and setup?  or could we have a repository set up for us?
[11:52] <pitti> Riddell: I have all kinds of branches for PostgreSQL, this works fine
[11:52] <pitti> Riddell: baz is relatively easy, if you already know cvs
[11:52] <ogra> seb128: that is how i did it since a long time, but now the icons are not shown if i dont give the path....
[11:52] <Kamion> you don't need to have someone else set up your arch repository
[11:52] <pitti> Riddell: setting up an archive is a matter of one command
[11:52] <seb128> ogra: no way
[11:52] <Kamion> unless you explicitly want a shared one; note you can merge changes among different archives
[11:52] <seb128> Icon=media-player-48.png for totem.desktop
[11:52] <seb128> ogra: do you have an icon for totem ?
[11:53] <ogra> sure
[11:53] <Riddell> Kamion: we do want one shared with all the kde ubuntu packagers
[11:53] <ogra> seb128: hah, sorry....my fault....
[11:54] <ogra> seb128: /usr/share/pixmaps/graveman.png , Icon=graveman48.png
[11:54] <pitti> Riddell: I use a shared archive for the Debian branch of PostgreSQL, that works fine
[11:54] <ogra> heh
[11:54] <pitti> Riddell: as long as all participants use a group-writeable umask :-)
[11:56] <Riddell> amu: fancy setting one up for us on amu.debian?
[11:59] <mantiena> seb128, ok, I just wanna understand  yours oppinion
[12:01] <seb128> mantiena: really, if you think the categorie is wrong the place to fix it is upstream
[12:08] <seb128> mvo: here ?
[12:08] <seb128> mvo: just curious, how have you fixed the fullscreen issue ?
[12:09] <mvo> seb128: I already have {save,restore}State and I just added a "gdk_window_get_state()" and a (possible) "gtk_window_maximize()"
[12:10] <seb128> k, so that was an app bug, not a metacity issue that you have workarounded ?
[12:10] <mvo> yes
[12:10] <seb128> nice, thanks
[12:10] <mvo> np :)
[12:11] <sivang> rehi all
[12:11] <dholbach> hi sivan!
[12:12] <amu> Riddell: baz or svn ? ;) 
[12:12] <sivang> hi daniel, what's up?
[12:14] <Riddell> amu: I don't mind, whichever is easiest for you
[12:15] <amu> Riddell: svn would be my choose *ducks*
[12:20] <abelli> amu: ciao
[12:20] <pitti> amu: baz!
[12:20] <pitti> amu: baz is lovely, especially if it comes to branching around a lot
[12:21] <pitti> amu: which you will likely do if you have ubuntu and Debian branches
[12:21] <pitti> amu: each of them for several releases
[12:22] <haggai> amu: svn doesn't do distributed development as well as baz
[12:22] <amu> abelli: *waves*
[12:23] <amu> okok :) than it will baz 
[12:30] <rburton> mvo: g-a-i with your patch didn't work properly, when synaptic finished it wasn't terminated correctly
[12:32] <mvo> rburton: oh, bad. I can have a look later
[12:32] <amu> Riddell: haggai: sounds good for me, i'll setup it local and distribute it also over p.u.c
[12:33] <pitti> amu: usually we shall keep our at-work archives on chinstrap:/home/warthogs/archives
[12:34] <pitti> amu: I have a mirror on people which is updated every hour
[12:34] <pitti> amu: that's what most other people do
[12:34] <Kamion> or you can mirror on commit
[12:34] <pitti> Kamion: how do you do this?
[12:34] <Kamion> though that doesn't work so well for shared archives
[12:34] <Kamion> pitti: ~/.arch-params/hook
[12:34] <pitti> Kamion: I know commit mirrors
[12:35] <pitti> Kamion: you ssh to rookery on every commit?
[12:35] <Kamion> sure
[12:35] <pitti> Kamion: that requires the ssh password
[12:35] <pitti> Kamion: okay, that would work
[12:35] <Kamion> no it doesn't :)
[12:35] <Kamion> ssh-agent
[12:35] <pitti> Kamion: ah :-)
[12:36] <pitti> Kamion: hmm, still, Riddel cannot do this
[12:36] <Kamion> I find it easier to do it on every commit (so that it can use the ssh-agent in my session) than to try to figure out how to securely mirror to chinstrap/rookery from a cron job
[12:36] <Kamion> true
[12:36] <pitti> Kamion: maybe we should setup an alioth analogon for Ubuntu
[12:36] <pitti> Kamion: where everybody interested can get an account
[12:36] <pitti> at least all MOTUs
[12:37] <T-Bone> hey Kamion, pitti !
[12:37] <pitti> Hi T-Bone, how are you
[12:37] <pitti> Kamion: TB issue?
[12:37] <T-Bone> fine and hungry :)
[12:37] <amu> pitti: that's the reason why i'll setup it also on my localnet 
[12:37] <pitti> amu: well, other people can branch off people.u.c :-)
[12:38] <thom> pitti: um, a PQM somewhere would obviate the need for logins, really
[12:38] <haggai> there was talk of webdav access, is that enough for baz?
[12:38] <pitti> Kamion: hmm, rookery should not be accessible to the world...
[12:39] <pitti> thom: what's PQM?
[12:39] <Kamion> patch queue manager
[12:39] <pitti> sounds interesting
[12:39] <pitti> anyway, TB topic?
[12:39] <pitti> or even CC?
[12:40] <Kamion> seems like an admin issue *shrug*
[12:45] <thom> jdub/mdz: PLEASE can i break UVF for firefox 1.0.1?
[12:46] <pitti> jdub, mdz: seconded 
[12:46] <thom> (more security fixes than you can shake a *very* big stick at)
[01:01] <ogra> pitti ?
[01:01] <pitti> ogra: ?
[01:01] <ogra> ftbfs ?
[01:01] <ogra> hal that is
[01:02] <abelli> ogra sup you
[01:02] <ogra> i dont see uudecode anywhere
[01:02] <Kamion> build-dep on sharutils
[01:02] <abelli> pitti: can i try applying linux console project patches to your kernel?
[01:02] <pitti> Kamion: it already does
[01:02] <pitti> abelli: sure
[01:02] <abelli> pitti: ok thank you
[01:03] <ogra> Kamion: i did....it works here for me...pitti had a prob on his test machine and changed the patch ....
[01:03] <pitti> ogra: make[4] : *** No rule to make target `hal-cpu.png', needed by `all-am'.  Stop.
[01:03] <pitti> ogra: that's the same as I encountered on my box
[01:04] <pitti> Kamion: this error occured on my box with ogra's patch, so I changed it to work for me
[01:04] <ogra> Kamion: configure/hal-device-manager:: , uudecode -o build-tree/$(DEB_TAR_SRCDIR)/tools/device-manager/hal-cpu.png < debian/hal-cpu.png.uuencode
[01:04] <ogra> Kamion, works for me....
[01:04] <pitti> ogra: I changed this to configure/hal::, that worked for me
[01:04] <ogra> Kamion, pitti had to change it
[01:04] <ogra> to make it work for him....
[01:04] <ogra> pitti: arch issue ? amd64 here
[01:05] <pitti> ogra: no, more like a race or a different building on buildds
[01:05] <dholbach> hmmm, it worked for me with gparted on all archs
[01:06] <ogra> ogra@honk:~/halstuff/hal-0.4.7 $ dpkg -l |grep cdbs
[01:06] <ogra> ii  cdbs           0.4.26-1       common build system for Debian packages
[01:06] <ogra> pitti: same version ?
[01:07] <pitti> ogra: what about using post-patches:: 
[01:07] <pitti> ?
[01:07] <ogra> hmm
[01:07] <ogra> but it works fine here....also just tried it on my i386 .....
[01:08] <dholbach> what about uudecoding it to   .../tmp/usr/share/pixmaps/   ?
[01:08] <ogra> nah
[01:08] <dholbach> don't know if this is considered to be bad style
[01:09] <pitti> ogra: post-patches:: works for me
[01:09] <pitti> ogra: for you too?
[01:09] <ogra> me neither, but i want to know why  configure/hal-device-manager:: isnt read ....
[01:09] <pitti> ogra: it makes more sense, too
[01:09] <pitti> ogra: it's probably read later
[01:09] <ogra> pitti: just exchange hal-device-manager ?
[01:10] <ogra> ::
[01:10] <pitti> ogra: the buildds might build the arch-any targets first, then arch-all
[01:10] <pitti> ogra: while you do it the other way round
[01:10] <pitti> ogra: s!configure/hal::!post-patches::!
[01:10] <ogra> ah, thanks
[01:12] <ogra> pitti: works :)
[01:12] <pitti> ogra: for me too, I upload
[01:12] <ogra> great, thanks :)
[01:21] <elmo> pitti: konversation is up-to-date; and mdz only just sent the approval mail for squid
[01:22] <thom> elmo: does powermanagement-interface need poking to move to main? i seeded it a while ago...
[01:22] <pitti> elmo: oh, sorry. konversation was still listed as old in my CAN overview; thanks
[01:22] <elmo> thom: seeds are FUBAR due to kde-in-main
[01:22] <thom> oh, right
[01:22] <elmo> the problem with konvesation is we are newer than sid
[01:22] <elmo> [Nothing to update (Modified)]  konversation_0.15.1-0ubuntu1 (vs 0.15-3)
[01:22] <thom> it would be KDE's fault
[01:23] <pitti> elmo: argh, yes
[01:23] <pitti> elmo: okay, I override the CANs manually
[01:24] <maswan> elmo: btw, just as a proof that the ftp cluster here can take more traffic: http://www.acc.umu.se/technical/statistics/ftp/monitordata/index.html.en
[01:25] <elmo> maswan: nice
[01:32] <T-Bone> maswan: impressive indeed :)
[01:34] <Kamion> I think I almost have kickseed able to pull stuff like CD-ROM detection and network configuration back a few steps to run before the language question now
[01:35] <Kamion> which will get rid of the separate file-kickseed and network-kickseed packages
[01:40] <torkel> maswan: does that mean I have to get the other servers up and running too? :-)
[01:40] <maswan> torkel: Well, it would be a fun cluster to build an ftp server from. :)
[01:41] <torkel> maswan: hehe
[01:51] <pitti> ogra: new hal built successfully
[01:55] <ogra> pitti: yay, just saw it....
[01:56] <ogra> argh
 photoguy151: did you do some chown command to change any rights of system files like /etc/sudoers ?
 "chown -R mike /"
[01:56] <ogra> AAAARRRGH !!!!
[01:57] <sivang> bah
[01:57] <Treenaks> ogra: *shudder*
[01:57] <dredg> ogra: yes... big stick, car park?
[01:58] <sivang> ogra: does it boot?
[01:58] <ogra> .... #ubuntu is a bit orphanded with all people working on their projects...
[01:58] <ogra> sivang: the guy just asked why sudo always complains about uid 1000.....
[01:59] <sivang> ogra: ouch
[01:59] <ogra> yup
[02:01] <ogra> thats why i said after_ ;)
[02:02] <HiddenWolf> ogra: there is always the next release to make great. :)
[02:02] <sivang> hey Mithrandir !
[02:02] <ogra> Mithrandir: yay, already
[02:02] <Mithrandir> hiya Sivan
[02:02] <thom> Mithrandir: have fun, git
[02:03] <HiddenWolf> Muscles from Brussels, eeks
[02:03] <Mithrandir> thom: I will. :)  Free wireless and everything here. :)
[02:03] <ogra> woot....
[02:03] <Mithrandir> (In the hotel)
[02:03] <ogra> hm :(
[02:03] <Mithrandir> ogra: you're already in Brussels?
[02:04] <ogra> nope....i live 100km away from the belgian border.....i'll drive from here and only come for one day (have to finish hwdb-client)
[02:05] <Mithrandir> oh, ok.
[02:05] <Mithrandir> what day?
[02:05] <HiddenWolf> ogra: where do you live? 
[02:05] <ogra> Mithrandir,  i thought sunday, but will study the schedule a bit more ....
[02:05] <Mithrandir> ok
[02:05] <ogra> HiddenWolf: germany/eifel....
[02:05] <Treenaks> ogra: you'll be there sat or sun?
[02:06] <elmo> Kamion: ?
[02:06] <HiddenWolf> ogra: key
[02:06] <elmo> Kamion: is grub-install known to be broken in recent-ish install in 'server' mode?
[02:06] <Treenaks> Mithrandir: I'll arrive around ten-ish tomorrow morning on Bruxelles Midi train station
[02:06] <ogra> Treenaks:  as i said above....sun is more likely.....but i will study the schedule again.....
[02:07] <Treenaks> ogra: cool, OK
[02:07] <Mithrandir> Treenaks: ok, I guess I'll see you at FOSDEM proper, then
[02:07] <ogra> no maddog this year ..... his keynotes are sooo cool
[02:08] <Treenaks> Mithrandir: I have to leave at 5am because there's maintenance at schiphol airport train station :(
[02:08] <Kamion> elmo: no, not that I know of. How so?
[02:08] <Mithrandir> Treenaks: did the same this morning.  Got up at four.
[02:08] <HiddenWolf> Treenaks: you're going to brussels, get on the train, oaf. :-P
[02:09] <ogra> Treenaks: nobody to give you a lift with a car ?
[02:09] <Treenaks> ogra: not close enough, and I'm not comfortable driving myself in Belgium..
[02:10] <Riddell> Treenaks: if you make it to utrecht in the next couple of hours we can take you :)
[02:10] <ogra> HiddenWolf: talk to mako
[02:10] <Treenaks> ogra: 2 or 3 ubuntu-nl people from .nl, 3-4 ubuntu-nl people from .be :)
[02:10] <ogra> heh
[02:10] <Treenaks> Riddell: well, I'd have to pack etc...
[02:11] <HiddenWolf> I'd love to have a look, but I've got exams coming up.
[02:11] <Riddell> maybe I should put on my kilt so people will recognise me, that way I don't have to go hunting people
[02:11] <thom> seb128 is my hero for the day
[02:11] <elmo> doko: ?
[02:11] <ogra> Riddell: yes, pleas do :)
[02:11] <seb128> thom: works fine ? :)
[02:12] <thom> yeah
[02:12] <Simira> Riddell: yay, kilt is the best garment ever!
[02:12] <jdub> thom: ff 1.0.1?
[02:12] <thom> jdub: yes
[02:12] <Treenaks> Simira: what's it with women and guys wearing skirts? :P
[02:12] <jdub> thom: is it going to involve scary breakage, or amazing unbackportable fixage? :)
[02:12] <thom> jdub: security and other crashes fixed
[02:12] <HiddenWolf> Treenaks: It's called gay pride :)
[02:12] <Simira> hm... is  kilt correct gala outfit?
[02:12] <thom> the latter
[02:12] <Simira> Treenaks: I didn't mention anything about guys. I love wearing kilt myself ;p
[02:13] <thom> jdub: it is basically what we have in ff1.0, plus a much more features, minus pango
[02:13] <thom> uh, s/features/fixes
[02:13] <jdub> thom: bonus :)
[02:13] <elmo> giggle
[02:13] <thom> and s/much/bunch
[02:14] <Treenaks> Simira: no, I mean.. it's my observation that women tend to like guys that wear skirts/kilts
[02:14] <HiddenWolf> thom: is anything being done about FF behaving like a memory leak?
[02:14] <thom> trying to type on two keyboards at once considered harmful
[02:14] <thom> HiddenWolf: no, patches accepted
[02:14] <ogra> hehe
[02:15] <Treenaks> Riddell: s./.||. then
[02:15] <HiddenWolf> thom: learn me to program, and I will :)
[02:15] <Simira> Treenaks: I like Tollef, with or withour skirt.
[02:15] <Simira> without, even
[02:16] <Mithrandir> Simira: kilt is not correct gala, no.  Unless perhaps if you're scottish.
[02:17] <thom> jdub: soooo? http://www.squarefree.com/burningedge/releases/1.0.1.html
[02:17] <Treenaks> thom: sounds like an act of god
[02:17] <Simira> Mithrandir: well, my conclusion is I have to sew a gala dress this weekend, then.
[02:17] <Mithrandir> Simira: oh, why not the black one?
[02:18] <jdub> thom: any idea of the size of diff between them?
[02:18] <Simira> Mithrandir: it's not proper
[02:19] <Mithrandir> Simira: oh, why not?
[02:20] <Simira> Mithrandir: I'm tired of it, my corset doesn't look well with it, and then I have to buy some black gloves as well
[02:21] <jdub> thom: anyway, if you're comfortable enough with it to demand the upgrade for your own sanity, then i approve :)
[02:22] <Mithrandir> Simira: whatever makes you happy, my love.
[02:22] <jdub> thom: if, however, it makes you cry later on... no sympathy whatsoever ;-)
[02:22] <elmo> thom: you're just trying to outdo jdub in the hoary breakage stakes aren't you?
[02:22] <Simira> Mithrandir: you know what would ;)
[02:22] <elmo> it won't work, he's got too big a lead on you! :-P
[02:22] <jdub> yeah man
[02:22] <jdub> i own the b0rk
[02:24] <thom> heh
[02:24] <thom> jdub: firefox makes me cry anyway
[02:25] <thom> but i suspect the size of the diff is probably smaller than the current debian diff
[02:25] <seb128> jdub: hey
[02:25] <jdub> pants off seb128 
[02:25] <seb128> jdub: is that of to update gaim ? 1.1.3 is in debian an fix 2 security issues 
[02:25] <seb128> s/of/ok/
[02:25] <jdub> seb128: so tonight i had to explain how ubuntu has all the latest gnome developer stuff in it
[02:25] <jdub> seb128: yes, approved
[02:25] <seb128> nice, thanks
[02:26] <seb128> jdub: how, where did you explain that ? I'm curious to know how too :p
[02:26] <sivang> jdub: did you tell them about seb "chainsaw" bacher? ;-)
[02:26] <jdub> seb128: so i said that we had a team of french developers working for us, and strangely enough, all of them are called sebastien
[02:26] <thom> jdub: 410 files changed, 5215 insertions(+), 3053 deletions(-)
[02:26] <sivang> ROTFL
[02:26] <jdub> seb128: so then the person asked how many sebastiens there were
[02:27] <jdub> seb128: and i thought for a moment
[02:27] <jdub> seb128: and said, "well, i generally only talk to the 128th sebastien, so i guess there's at least 128"
[02:27] <sivang> hehehe
[02:28] <mvo> haha
[02:28] <sivang> jdub: where was it? lugradio or some other media?
[02:28] <jdub> sivang: no, at my local lug meeting
[02:28] <jdub> i'm sorely tempted to use that explanation elsewhere though
[02:28] <mvo> go seb128 go :)
[02:29] <thom> jdub: as against 65 files changed, 6434 insertions(+), 181 deletions(-) for the current debian patch (and a lot of the upstream are changing 1.0 to 1.0.1
[02:29] <pitti> jdub: for ((i=0; i <= 128; ++i)) seb.fork();
[02:29] <sivang> jdub: ah
[02:29] <seb128> jdub: ah ah :)
[02:29] <jdub> thom: cool
[02:30] <sjoerd> pitti: that makes 129 sebs then :)
[02:30] <pitti> sjoerd: right, that's why jdub talked about "at least" 128 :-)
[02:30] <jdub> sebzero sounds dangerous, too :-)
[02:31] <d3vic3> heh
[02:31] <opi> sebzero, a temperature that makes your deb frozen?
[02:35] <jdub> jdubtv! -> http://70.85.31.216:8800/
[02:36] <Kamion> smurfix: hm, I have a suspicion that this kbd-chooser change of yours broke preseeding:
[02:36] <Kamion>   * Killed translated_keyboard_get() -- cdebconf already does the
[02:36] <Kamion>     translating for us.
[02:37] <smurfix> What broke?
[02:37] <doko_> elmo: pong
[02:37] <Simira> jdub: got yourself a webcam or something?
[02:37] <dholbach> hello jdub *wave*
[02:37] <sjoerd> jdub: this is live with fluendo stuff right ?
[02:37] <jdub> got myself a linode flumotion worker!
[02:37] <jdub> sjoerd: yes
[02:37] <Kamion> smurfix: was that a necessary change for some other reason, or can it be restored? when preseeding, you do things like setting console-keymaps-at/keymap to 'uk'
[02:37] <dholbach> smile into the camera please :-)
[02:37] <elmo> doko: what did you want synced again?
[02:37] <Kamion> i.e. to the untranslated name
[02:37] <jordi> hola jdub :)
[02:37] <dholbach> YES! :-)
[02:38] <sjoerd> jdub: nope that wasn't right
[02:38] <jdub> shyoard?
[02:38] <doko_> elmo: libcairo
[02:38] <sivang> jdub: your stream still on?
[02:39] <jdub> back on now
[02:39] <dholbach> seb128: now you say "pants off" to jdub!
[02:39] <jdub> i did over a gig of traffic in two hours earlier
[02:39] <sivang> jdub: could you toss the ip adress again?
[02:39] <jdub> jdubtv! -> http://70.85.31.216:8800/
[02:39] <sivang> jdub: tnx
[02:39] <tseng> hm jdub is bearded
[02:39] <Kamion> beardub
[02:40] <jdub> Kamion: sorry, did you say baredub?
[02:40] <Kamion> nonononono
[02:40] <Simira> jdub: yay! I also got my new webcam today. Wanna have cybersex? Uhm...
[02:40] <sivang> hehehe
[02:40] <jdub> :-)
[02:40] <Treenaks> jdub: whoa! it has sound!
[02:40] <jdub> Simira: A/S/L?!!??!?!!
[02:40] <Kamion> get a room :)
[02:40] <jdub> probably entirely out of sync
[02:40] <Mithrandir> jdub: Simira is mine! :P
[02:40] <smurfix> Kamion: That function (the ask-for-translated-strings part, anyway) was basically a no-op, so I can't see offhand how it would have hurt.
[02:40] <Treenaks> jdub: now all you need is sync :)
[02:40] <Simira> jdub: old enough, yes please, at my webcam?
[02:40] <jdub> oh man, now we're up to 10 clients
[02:41] <Kamion> smurfix: the point is that I don't think cdebconf does do the translation for you if you've preseeded the answer
[02:41] <Mithrandir> Simira: have you played with the IR part of it?
[02:41] <Simira> sivang: it's the depht of UbuntuLove
[02:41] <Treenaks> jdub: great framerate though
[02:41] <HiddenWolf> sivang: just people getting exited without girlfriends, but looking at sexy code. 
[02:41] <Kamion> smurfix: but ICBW I guess, I'll try stuff out
[02:41] <Simira> Mithrandir: ok, I haven't even opened it yet
[02:41] <Kamion> smurfix: I do know that something broke though :)
[02:41] <jdub> Treenaks: yeah, and the quality doesn't suck to hard at this bitrate
[02:41] <jdub> 'too'
[02:41] <smurfix> Kamion: non-keyboard-related preseeds still work?
[02:41] <Kamion> smurfix: yeah
[02:42] <Simira> jdub: but I do have trouble connecting you
[02:42] <Treenaks> mplayer works fine here on SUSE
[02:42] <Kamion> smurfix: I'm trying to make kickstarting off cdrom work better at the moment, so I hit it fairly quickly :)
[02:43] <dholbach> Treenaks: totem does too
[02:43] <dredg> oh man. jdub's a camgirl
[02:43] <Treenaks> dholbach: not on my thoroughly ubuntized suse ;)
[02:43] <dholbach> Treenaks: you make me cry
[02:44] <Treenaks> dholbach: my employer made me do it!
[02:44] <dholbach> Treenaks: hmm
[02:44] <Treenaks> jdub: AAAGH
[02:44] <Treenaks> jdub: don't do that!
[02:44] <jdub> :)
[02:45] <smurfix> Kamion: Which values are you preseeding?
[02:45] <dholbach> and i always told people, i didnt have a TV
[02:45] <Kamion> smurfix: 'd-i console-keymaps-at/keymap select uk'
[02:46] <Kamion> smurfix: booting with console-keymaps-at/keymap=uk is probably the easiest way to reproduce it at the moment
[02:47] <Kamion> since preseeding stuff that early is awkward
[02:47] <smurfix> Kamion: ah. I'll have a look ASAP.
[02:47] <Kamion> smurfix: (assuming an AT keyboard, anyway)
[02:47] <jordi> Mithrandir: what temperatures can I expect in Telemark at the end of March?
[02:47] <jordi> Mithrandir: I keep thinking about that.
[02:48] <Kamion> smurfix: hm, crap, that doesn't entirely work, investigating
[02:48] <sivang> jdub: did you just wave?
[02:48] <doko> pitti: ping
[02:48] <Mithrandir> jordi: hmm.. Where in Telemark?  Telemark goes from the sea up to at least 1000 m.a.s.
[02:49] <Simira> jordi: going to TG? You could expect anything from -10 to +15 celsius
[02:49] <jordi> Mithrandir: hmm. let me see.
[02:49] <Kamion> smurfix: ok, boot with DEBCONF_PRIORITY=critical console-keymaps-at/keymap=uk
[02:49] <Mithrandir> Simira: TG is _not_ in Telemark. :)
[02:49] <pitti> doko: bong
[02:49] <Kamion> the first screen you see should be a failure from kbd-chooser
[02:49] <Simira> Mithrandir: true, I forgot
[02:49] <jordi> Rjukan
[02:49] <Simira> Mithrandir: I SHOULD know
[02:49] <jordi> or something like this.
[02:49] <Simira> Rjukan is cold
[02:50] <jordi> oh dear dear dear
[02:50] <Mithrandir> jordi: I'm not sure if you'll see the sun.  It'll probably be in the range from -25 to 0, I'd guess.
[02:50] <Mithrandir> probably around -10-ish
[02:50] <jordi> Mithrandir: omfg
[02:50] <jdub> jane is watching now too :-)
[02:50] <jdub> on her laptop which is running hoary :-)
[02:51] <Simira> jordi: if you're lucky, we're having an early spring, and getting close to 0. ;)
[02:51] <thom> ah, she found a use for it then? ;-)
[02:51] <jordi> jdub: jane runs ubuntu now?
[02:51] <jordi> cool :)
[02:51] <Kamion> jordi: she dual-boots
[02:51] <jordi> nod
[02:51] <jdub> jordi: totally dude
[02:51] <Mithrandir> jordi: -2 and sunny now, actually.
[02:52] <Treenaks> jdub: you should set up a credit-card payment portal thing to get to jdub-tv
[02:52] <jordi> Simira: ok, I'm going to miss my toes
[02:52] <elmo> Kamion: hmm, I can definitely reproduce this problem on both i386 and amd64 with 2005-02-23 image, only in 'server'.
[02:52] <Mithrandir> jordi: pft, wear socks.
[02:52] <Simira> jordi: tihi. What are you doing there? Easter holidays?
[02:52] <jdub> Treenaks: dude, earlier today, i couldn't even get 20 people to watch it
[02:52] <sivang> say people, isn't right that jdub looks like an austrelian pirate ? :)
[02:53] <Kamion> elmo: anything interesting in syslog?
[02:53] <Treenaks> jdub: if you had asked their credit card numbers, you could now run out & buy new servers to support your growth
[02:54] <elmo> Kamion: well, a) I get apt-cdrom garbage  on the primary console just before the "Use internet repositories" question, b) in syslog it's whining about not being able to find grub on /cdrom
[02:54] <elmo> Kamion: it's hard to test tho, 'cos I'm doing it on a machine with .5TB and the partitioner is dog slow for that
[02:54] <Treenaks> sivang: #jdub-tv is empty :(
[02:54] <Kamion> elmo: think it might be easier if you could get /var/log/syslog somewhere I can see 
[02:55] <elmo> I'm going to rip all but one of the drives out and get you some details, I just wanted to make sure it wasn't a known problem
[02:55] <sivang> jdub: you should set this up for other ubutnu people, so we'd have Kamion|tv , elmo|tv , sabdfl|tv would be awesome :)
[02:55] <Kamion> elmo: I'm running through a test install on amd64 now
[02:55] <Kamion> you do not want Kamion|tv </jedi-mind-trick>
[02:56] <sivang> jdub: what's the open machine over there at the back? 
[02:56] <sivang> jdub: (has a kbd on it(
[02:56] <jdub> sivang: dude, kamion has red hair in places you don't want to see.
[02:56] <jdub> that's my fileserver
[02:56] <ogra> hehe
[02:57] <jdub> with no lid on it
[02:57] <sivang> jdub: ROTFL
[02:57] <jdub> it's actually the nfs server for /home on my desktop too :)
[02:57] <elmo> boggle
[02:57] <Treenaks> jdub: how about Canonical Radio then?
[02:57] <Kamion> and how jdub knows that exactly, I'm not going to ask
[02:57] <sivang> jdub: cool
[02:57] <sivang> Kamion: hehe
[02:57] <elmo> I rip out all the drives, so it only has one 72Gb drive, and the RAID card still presents a "212GB" array to Linux
[02:57] <sivang> Kamion: you seem close :)
[02:58] <tseng> jdub looked at me!
[02:58] <Kamion> tseng: it's like the Mona Lisa, only much beardier
[02:58] <jordi> simira, yes
[02:58] <rburton> ewwww
[02:58] <sivang> hehe
[02:58] <lamont> dholbach: it's "successful" because dpkg-buildpackage didn't fail
[02:59] <Kamion> lamont: re your wondering last night if I could kick off live builds, elmo told me that those buildds would be down for a while
[02:59] <jdub> Treenaks: so a few people have asked if i'm going to do a tv show
[02:59] <jdub> Treenaks: and it's getting tempting
[02:59] <sivang> robtaylor_: are you also watching jdub|tv ? it's cool :)
[02:59] <Kamion> elmo: the apt-cdrom garbage I know about, will fix
[02:59] <lamont> Kamion: well, unless he has them down today, the livecd buildd's were all up last night when I said that.... :-)
[02:59] <sivang> jdub: seriously?
[02:59] <lamont> but I know that the ia64 boxen are on his list for today
[02:59] <Kamion> lamont: hm, ok; I assume you can do it now though :)
[03:00] <lamont> true enough
[03:00] <ogra> jdub: GO GO GO !!
[03:00] <mvo> Kamion: what kind of garbage is it?
[03:00] <Kamion> whoa, though, that's way more apt-cdrom garbage then there used to be
[03:00] <ogra> jdub: but get some more sleep before ;)
[03:00] <Kamion> mvo: it's just apt-cdrom's normal output, apt-setup isn't redirecting it properly
[03:01] <mvo> all right
[03:01] <rburton> jdub|tv?
[03:02] <ogra> sivang: stick something thugh the slits...a needle or so....then it stops ;)
[03:02] <Kamion> elmo: hmm. ok. I see it too. trying to figure out what on earth to do about it now; I think it's fallout from my changes for #6390.
[03:02] <jdub> rburton: jdubtv! -> http://70.85.31.216:8800/
[03:02] <ogra> s/thugh/through
[03:02] <rburton> oh god
[03:02] <ogra> hehe
[03:02] <sivang> ogra: lol
[03:03] <Treenaks> sivang: I think it's more "Breakfast Bits with jdub" for him :)
[03:03] <rburton> oh dear god
[03:03] <sivang> rburton: join the fun :)
[03:04] <Kamion> elmo: or maybe not. anyway, the issue is that base-installer leaves /cdrom bind-mounted for the benefit of later udebs trying to apt-install stuff, but the process of running apt-setup - and hence apt-cdrom - in the first stage unmounts it
[03:04] <rburton> am i the only person who talks to himself continually when working alone then?
[03:04] <Treenaks> rburton: no
[03:04] <Kamion> I could possibly use apt-cdrom --no-mount if /cdrom is already mounted
[03:05] <Kamion> oh, hey, it does use --no-mount, but apt-setup EXPLICITLY UNMOUNTS /cdrom. fuckeurs.
[03:06] <elmo> Kamion: why's it only doing it in 'server' tho?
[03:06] <rburton> hey jdub!
[03:06] <lamont> elmo: just kicked livecd rootfs builds on all 4 arch
[03:07] <T-Bone> hey lamont!
[03:07] <elmo> lamont: ok
[03:07] <lamont> so 45 min or so for adare and weddell, if you'd be so kind
[03:07] <Kamion> elmo: because server mode doesn't use archive-copier, and archive-copier plays all sorts of games with /cdrom
[03:07] <elmo> ahic
[03:07] <lamont> morning T-Bone 
[03:07] <Kamion> including running apt-cdrom itself
[03:07] <T-Bone> lamont: i'll give a shot at ia64 OOo in a fwe hours...
[03:08] <lamont> woot
[03:08] <zul> hey
[03:08] <T-Bone> lamont: and hope this will make ia64 look a bit better :P
[03:09] <robtaylor_> sivang: i'm starting to find jdub TV slightlu disturbing for some reason =)
[03:09] <rburton> the noise of jdub typing is strangely hypnotic
[03:10] <robtaylor_> rburton: i think i'm glad i dont have sound here =)
[03:10] <rburton> jdub: i presume this is flumotion
[03:10] <tseng> robtaylor_: he does little skits every so often
[03:10] <jdub> rburton: totally
[03:11] <tseng> robtaylor_: youre missing the fun.
[03:11] <robtaylor_> tseng: ah, dammit =)
[03:11] <zul> flumotion?
[03:11] <rburton> jdub: oddly your stream is better than the fluendo one, despite travelling far further
[03:11] <HiddenWolf> rburton: do i sense love in the air?
[03:11] <rburton> haha
[03:12] <robtaylor_> *jdub i love you, jdub i doooo* 
[03:12] <robtaylor_> heh
[03:12] <ogra> jdub: usic, what is that ?
[03:12] <jdub> amelie soundtrack
[03:12] <jdub> rburton: it's in the USA :-)
[03:12] <ogra> s/usic/nice misic
[03:13] <ogra> ah
[03:13] <rburton> jdub: ah, that's not too bad
[03:13] <thom> jdub: linode abuse?
[03:13] <jdub> thom: linode is *rad*
[03:13] <tseng> do they have an ubuntu image yet?
[03:13] <jdub> only, i have found that udev doesn't even install on 2.4 systems now
[03:13] <jdub> tseng: yes, for a couple of weeks now
[03:13] <tseng> rad.
[03:14] <jdub> tseng: talking to caker about promotion stuff :-)
[03:14] <jdub> tseng: (see sounder, btw)
[03:14] <tseng> caker is the man
[03:14] <tseng> (made of cake)
[03:15] <trulux> hi
[03:16] <trulux> pitti: ping
[03:16] <pitti> Hi trulux
[03:16] <trulux> pitti: howya!?
[03:16] <pitti> trulux: good'n'you? :-)
[03:16] <trulux> pitti: great, busy but fine
[03:16] <trulux> :)
[03:16] <trulux> pitti: we have done the libssp
[03:16] <trulux> pitti: toolchain ready
[03:16] <pitti> new version?
[03:16] <pitti> ah
[03:16] <trulux> yeah
[03:16] <trulux> the definitive one
[03:16] <ogra> jdub ?
[03:17] <trulux> pitti: kernel based support for entropy gathering, I'm going to submit a patch for kernel mainline inclusion
[03:17] <ogra> jdub: missed your pills today ?
[03:17] <trulux> so
[03:17] <trulux> users relying in chrooted ubuntu installations wouldn't have trouble for getting /dev/urandom entropy
[03:17] <trulux> a new syscall is made available
[03:17] <trulux> http://pearls.tuxedo-es.org/patches/propolice-2.6.11-rc2.patch
[03:18] <trulux> the stack_smash_handler needs fixing, the other one *works neatly*
[03:18] <trulux> pitti: lemme cvs the latest libssp code
[03:18] <trulux> pitti: then I will try to upload a new package
[03:18] <trulux> pitti: is that possible ?
[03:19] <pitti> trulux: if you mean that you need a new libssp package, that's fine
[03:19] <pitti> trulux: libssp 0.2 is already in Debian experimental
[03:20] <trulux> ok
[03:20] <pitti> trulux: I did not yet upload it to Ubuntu since we can quickly sync it if we actually need it
[03:20] <trulux> ok
[03:20] <trulux> pitti: we are at 1.2.0 and 1.3.0 now
[03:20] <trulux> some asm magic needed for some things
[03:21] <pitti> trulux: do you have updated gcc packages ready? which could be included into Hoary universe?
[03:22] <pitti> trulux: i. e. gcc-ssp
[03:22] <elmo> T-Bone: ?
[03:22] <T-Bone> elmo: hi!
[03:22] <elmo> T-Bone: have you netbooted ia64 before?
[03:22] <trulux> pitti: I've talked it and we thought it was better to have gcc-hardened
[03:22] <trulux> pitti: for later improvement in userland gcc profiling
[03:22] <trulux> using porfiles and such
[03:22] <T-Bone> elmo: no. That's an issue i've been trying to avoid banging my head on :)
[03:23] <trulux> pitti: this weekend it will be done
[03:23] <pitti> trulux: cool
[03:24] <pitti> trulux: however, we already agreed to -ssp ...
[03:24] <T-Bone> elmo: i have a rough idea of what it takes to do it tho
[03:24] <elmo> T-Bone: well I know how to netboot, it's just not working on ia64 ;)
[03:25] <elmo> in.tftpd[24476] : tftp: client does not accept options
[03:25] <elmo> I just get that in syslog
[03:25] <Kamion> elmo: I think that's normal, I saw that on a successful i386 netboot
[03:25] <T-Bone> elmo: arg :P
[03:26] <T-Bone> ah!
[03:26] <trulux> pitti: yeah, but the problem is that both PIE and SSP will be used in a near future depending on which profile the user wants, much like Gentoo does
[03:26] <elmo> Kamion: hmm, ok, well then I must be doing something else wrong
[03:26] <Kamion> elmo: I've got a fix for the server grub install issue; need to check how it interacts with archive-copier though
[03:26] <trulux> pitti: it will  help us when maintaining it
[03:26] <elmo> Kamion: cool
[03:26] <trulux> pitti: so, no more headaches with wrappers or such
[03:26] <pitti> hm, ok
[03:26] <trulux> a global wrapper
[03:26] <trulux> profiled
[03:26] <Kamion> elmo: also got rid of the apt-cdrom spew at the same time, as a welcome side-effect
[03:26] <trulux> ssp? then gcc-hardened
[03:27] <elmo> Kamion: btw, I dunno if it's related, but when I forcibly (re)mounted /cdrom in the chroot, and continued the install, 'server' still tried to install all the normal desktop stuff
[03:27] <trulux> pie? then gcc-hardened / gcc with -fPIE/-fpie
[03:27] <trulux> etc
[03:27] <trulux> pitti: going also to improve selinux support
[03:27] <trulux> pitti: this weekend I will finish a meta package for selinux support installation
[03:27] <trulux> pitti: ok?
[03:27] <pitti> trulux: fine :-)
[03:28] <trulux> pitti: just finished the exams week, two remaining, but those are easy
[03:28] <trulux> :)
[03:28] <T-Bone> elmo: you're installing on a Fusion-featured box, right?
[03:28] <Kamion> elmo: didn't do that for me just now, I guess that was a side-effect although I can't think how exactly
[03:29] <Kamion> elmo: what arch?
[03:29] <Kamion> oh, you said i386/amd64
[03:29] <elmo> Kamion: yeah
[03:30] <elmo> T-Bone: yeah, rx1600
[03:30] <T-Bone> elmo: cool, hadn't time to try it on my zx6000, glad to hear successful report :)
[03:30] <smurfix> Gaah. One powersupplyectomy later.
[03:31] <T-Bone> Kamion: all went fine except i've been asked for the X resolution (ugly 60Hz :P), and i've been prompted twice for unauthenticated packages installation
[03:31] <T-Bone> i also seen some openoffice errors (how surprising), but it didn't prevent X from starting, afaict
[03:32] <Kamion> T-Bone: the unauthenticated stuff is bug #6865; mvo's working on it
[03:33] <elmo> in.tftpd[26339] : RRQ from 82.211.81.240 filename /elilo.efi
[03:33] <elmo> PXE-E18: Timeout.  Server did not respond.
[03:33] <elmo> Load of Netboot failed: Not Found
[03:33] <elmo> meh
[03:33] <Kamion> elmo: have you told that tftpd to consider /tftpboot or whatever the root directory?
[03:34] <T-Bone> Kamion: ok. Will have to run in ~15', then I'll squash the ooffice stuff
[03:34] <elmo> Kamion: yes, I've used this tftpd setup for i386/amd64 successfully
[03:35] <elmo> and had it break with apple, but we knew about that problem already
[03:35] <ogra> jdub: hi pipka
[03:35] <Kamion> the default i386/amd64 pxe configuration looks at /tftpboot/pxelinux.0, I thought, so it doesn't need to have the root directory set
[03:35] <T-Bone> elmo: there's no such trick with ia64 as those we have on mips WRT netbooting ? (port range, packet size and all the like...)
[03:35] <Kamion> (as in I tried using -s with tftpd-hpa and it broke, but I think other arches need -s)
[03:36] <Kamion> but hm, you're getting server did not respond, not no such file, I guess
[03:36] <elmo> Kamion: oh, well, okay, what I'm actually doing is, using /var/lib/tftproot - the default inetd.conf entrie uses '-s /var/lib/tftproot' and I unpacked the netboot.tar.gz into there
[03:36] <Kamion> elmo: ah, ok
[03:40] <T-Bone> Kamion: very ouch indeed: the ooffice shit actually prevents any further package installation with apt-get install :P
[03:41] <Kamion> T-Bone: some more details than "ooffice shit" would be nice ;) the current CD infrastructure is meant to work around that problem, and if it doesn't manage to then I'd like to know why
[03:42] <T-Bone> Kamion: sure. lemme mail you a dump
[03:42] <Kamion> ok, thanks
[03:42] <Kamion> /var/log/base-config.log would be useful
[03:44] <lamont> Kamion: livecd rootfs built on all 3 places it's expected to work.
[03:44] <T-Bone> Kamion: sent
[03:45] <lamont> T-Bone: the other piece of ia64 pain right now (that's breaking livecd images, etc) is libbonobo's FTBFS
[03:46] <T-Bone> errr...
[03:46] <lamont> FTBFS in debian as well, if that helps aswage the pain.
[03:46] <T-Bone> heh
[03:47] <T-Bone> lamont: it drastically decreases the investigation priority :)
[03:47] <elmo> meh, tftpd-hpa is sending the file, it just breaks at some point
[03:47] <elmo> sends 120, acked 120, sends 121 ... acked 120, acked 120, acked 120 etc.
[03:56] <doko> elmo: sorry. forgot to ask for sync of libpixman. library is in main, no used dependencies in main (libcairo is the only one). libcairo depends on a newer version.
[03:57] <dholbach> bbl
[03:57] <sabdfl> hey happy campers, is fglrx testable at this point?
[03:58] <jdub> sabdfl: in totem, jdubtv! -> http://70.85.31.216:8800/
[03:58] <Mithrandir> sabdfl: ought to be
[04:01] <jdub> http://people.ubuntu.com/~jdub/screenshots/flumotion-admin-20050226.png
[04:02] <jdub> ^ and that's how much the streamer's being hammered
[04:02] <Treenaks> jdub: only 1.78 mbit/s??
[04:02] <Treenaks> :P
[04:03] <jdub> so the fluendo guys have a host doing 80mbit/s atm
[04:03] <rburton> more clients needed!
[04:03] <jdub> 15% cpu, 20% mem
[04:03] <Treenaks> jdub: nice
[04:03] <jdub> definitely
[04:03] <jordi> OMG it's jdub
[04:03] <jdub> the more clients the better
[04:03] <jordi> I just joined
[04:03] <jdub> peak was 20
[04:04] <jordi> hellooooo jduuub
[04:04] <jordi> hahaha
[04:04] <jdub> :)
[04:04] <Simira> miss me, Mithrandir? http://129.241.136.146:8080/
[04:04] <rburton> i've got serious a/v sync issues here
[04:04] <jordi> yeah
[04:04] <jdub> rburton: yeah, work is being done on that
[04:05] <Mithrandir> Simira: I'll take a look after I've updated my hoary here.  Right now, the network is icky enough as it is
[04:05] <jdub> i'm updating my hoary mirror atm ;)
[04:05] <jordi> so, what in Fluemotion is free and what isn't?
[04:05] <Simira> Mithrandir: it's ok, I'll have my cybersex with jdub as we're waiting
[04:05] <jdub> jordi: currently, it's all free
[04:05] <jdub> jordi: flumotion will be selling proprietary licensed plugins for like, windows media
[04:05] <Mithrandir> Simira: eyh!
[04:06] <jdub> jordi: and probably management tools and so on
[04:06] <jordi> jdub: oh, sounds cool
[04:06] <jdub> flumotion is very rad
[04:06] <jdub> not only because it's built on Beautiful Technology
[04:06] <jdub> but the architecture is so sensible
[04:06] <jdub> think... distributed gstreamer piplines
[04:07] <jdub> with smart components as well as gstreamer elements
[04:07] <jdub> all built on gstreamer, python and twisted :-)
[04:07] <jdub> much love!
[04:07] <sabdfl> Mithrandir: seems to work very well on x86
[04:08] <rburton> jdub: i presume you have a local flumotion which grabs fottage and encoder, and sends it to the server for sharing
[04:08] <rburton> footage even
[04:08] <jdub> rburton: yep
[04:08] <Mithrandir> sabdfl: should work just as well on amd64.
[04:08] <jdub> rburton: see the admin sshot
[04:08] <jdub> rburton: capture and encoding is all done on my laptop
[04:08] <Kamion> T-Gone: oh, I see, it's the language-support stuff
[04:08] <jdub> rburton: it's shunted to lazarus, my desktop, which the firewall has DNAT rules to
[04:08] <Kamion> blah
[04:08] <jdub> rburton: the worker on node (in the USA) connects to the desktop
[04:09] <jordi> there must be something wrong with me: I have an ephy window in the background, with jdub's screenshot of Fluemotion Admin. And I can't help thinking every two minutes "damn, that's probably not translated at all, where can I get a .pot"
[04:09] <jdub> so one 180kbit/s upstream from here
[04:09] <jdub> jordi: ha ha ha :-)
[04:09] <Mithrandir> jdub: how do you do that?
[04:09] <jdub> Mithrandir: which?
[04:09] <rburton> jdub: sweet
[04:09] <Mithrandir> jdub: push to another machine.
[04:10] <jordi> lol
[04:10] <jordi> haha
[04:10] <Kamion> T-Gone: ok, I've told the ia64 CDs not to install language-support-* either for now, which ought to work around that issue
[04:10] <jordi> well, funny thing is that "cercant" is the Catalan way
[04:10] <jdub> Mithrandir: just by setting up the flow
[04:10] <Kamion> T-Gone: looks like mozilla-firefox badly needs fixing on ia64 too
[04:10] <jordi> not the Valencian way
[04:11] <jordi> but I'm used to the Catalan way for translations
[04:11] <jordi> Go Amlie
[04:11] <jdub> Mithrandir: flumotion adds a flexible network configuration layer on top of gstreamer, basically
[04:11] <jordi> some days I listen to that disk nonstop. I get up with that every day, too :)
[04:11] <jdub> Mithrandir: for fully distributed production, conversion and streaming :-)
[04:11] <jdub> jordi: cool :)
[04:11] <jdub> it's great working music
[04:11] <dredg> hmmm, multicats jdub|tv
[04:12] <dredg> er, multicast
[04:12] <jdub> yeah, no multicast yet
[04:12] <jordi> jdub|tv is cool
[04:12] <jdub> plus basically no network supports it usefully ;)
[04:12] <Mithrandir> jdub: dude, I've used flumotion, but only in a very basic way.  No need to give me the full marketing speech. ;)
[04:12] <dredg> jdub: yes yes. let me live in my dreamland of multicast, ipv6 and an end to NAT :)
[04:13] <jdub> Mithrandir: yeah, the wizard doesn't really expose all the love ;-)
[04:13] <Treenaks> dredg: that land is in MY dream world!
[04:13] <jdub> Mithrandir: my flow is actually a series of raw gstreamer pipelines, rather than flumotion components
[04:13] <dredg> Treenaks: woo :)
[04:13] <jdub> i really should switch to some of the default components
[04:13] <sjoerd> dredg: get on a nice university lan and you can have it :)
[04:13] <Mithrandir> jdub: oh, ok.
[04:14] <dredg> sjoerd: hey, i've got 2 out 3 here :)
[04:14] <jordi> so who was this dude who said he know it was me?
[04:14] <Treenaks> jdub: what kind of camera are you using?
[04:14] <jdub> logitech quickcam 4000
[04:14] <jordi> a quickcam? wow
[04:14] <jdub> jordi: random badopi lug dude ;)
[04:14] <jordi> oh, I see :)
[04:15] <jordi> I missed t he first part, volume too low
[04:15] <jdub> it's interesting watching my eye movements
[04:15] <jdub> across the screen
[04:15] <jdub> when i look down and to the right (from your perspective), i'm looking at my stream window
[04:15] <elmo> totem's unbelivably fragile on powerpc
[04:16] <jdub> when i'm looking down and to the left, i'm looking at my irc entry line
[04:16] <Treenaks> jdub: you're watching yourself fullscreen using XGL and transparent xterms? :P
[04:16] <jdub> top right is the flumotion admin window and incoming email
[04:16] <Mithrandir> elmo: it's fragile on  i386 as well.
[04:16] <jdub> elmo: should be better with the gst-plugins update coming this week
[04:18] <dredg> hmm, tomboy++
[04:20] <Treenaks> Skip World!
[04:22] <mvo> rburton: what do I have to do to reproduce the problem with gnome-app-install and my patch? it seems to work here on my inital test?
[04:25] <jordi> jdub: how's polypaudio doing these days? Have the problems it had a few months ago been resolved?
[04:25] <jordi> Stopping rb just because I want totem sounds a bit 1998 to me :)
[04:26] <jdub> jordi: from d-d-l? yeah, massively - alan gave it the thumbs up :)
[04:26] <jdub> jordi: still having some problems with it in hoary
[04:26] <jordi> jdub: what kind of problems?
[04:26] <jdub> you're on ppc right?
[04:27] <jordi> yeah
[04:27] <jordi> at times ppc, at times intel
[04:27] <jdub> for one, the alsa plugin doesn't work on ppc, so use the oss plugin ;)
[04:27] <jordi> yay. :)
[04:28] <jordi> has it been uploaded to Debian? if not, need help with that?
[04:28] <jordi> and, is anyone DDoS'ing your stream? :)
[04:29] <jdub> 12 clients atm, pushing 1.57mbit/s
[04:29] <jordi> it came to a stop here
[04:29] <jdub> i think i'd be pretty happy with the current version hitting debian unstable
[04:29] <jdub> ds was going to do it, but i haven't heard from him in a while
[04:30] <jordi> *nod*. My offer stands, jfyi :)
[04:30] <jordi> hmm, connection refused now
[04:31] <rburton> jdub: say hello to vicky for me, cheers
[04:33] <rburton> waa the stream is well bust
[04:34] <smurfix> Kamion: found it. Not a translation problem.
[04:35] <carlos> jdub: is normal that since more than a week ago I have problems with the icons? many of them are missing
[04:36] <jdub> ouch
[04:36] <jdub> the streamer's having a bit of a spew atm
[04:36] <jdub> carlos: on ppc?
[04:36] <carlos> jdub: yes
[04:36] <pitti> daniels: ping
[04:37] <jdub> hrm, international bandwidth hurting
[04:39] <jordi> jdub: if it's the same bug as in debian, your icon caches are fucked
[04:39] <jordi> err
[04:39] <jdub> carlos: so the icon cache stuff landed, and is broken on ppc :-)
[04:39] <jordi> carlos
[04:39] <jdub> carlos: seb is tracking it
[04:39] <seb128> carlos: rm -f /usr/share/icons*/icon-theme.cache
[04:39] <carlos> jdub: ok
[04:39] <jordi> seb to rescue
[04:39] <seb128> carlos: sudo rm -f /usr/share/icons/*/icon-theme.cache
[04:40] <carlos> seb128: :-D
[04:40] <seb128> the icon cache is bong by spec
[04:40] <carlos> seb128: so you broke my icons???
[04:40] <seb128> sure, broking panel is boring, I've changed 
[04:40] <carlos> seb128: :-D
[04:41] <carlos> it works, thank you
[04:41] <thom> it's gdm borkage next, right?
[04:41] <thom> (the other good thing about FF1.0.1 is i can call it firefox from the start)
[04:41] <jordi> thom: what's that?
[04:42] <Kamion> smurfix: what was it?
[04:42] <Kamion> oh my god, I wonder how many layering violations I can commit in one script
[04:42] <Kamion> this one is going to have to fiddle with not only /var/lib/anna-install/queue, but, if I'm not mistaken, /var/lib/dpkg/status as well
[04:42] <Mithrandir> Kamion: wtf are you up to?
[04:43] <thom> jordi: Moz Foundation want us not to call firefox mozilla-firefox due to trademarks
[04:44] <jdub> carlos: this one iz gtk boog :)
[04:44] <jordi> thom: renaming the package to "firefox" is enough?
[04:44] <jordi> the moz TM stuff is sad
[04:45] <thom> jordi: well, and the binaries and so on, but yes
[04:45] <Kamion> Mithrandir: trying to forcibly install and configure a couple of packages before anna runs
[04:45] <Mithrandir> Kamion: why not just dpkg -i them?
[04:45] <jdub> yeah
[04:45] <jdub> they've adopted a pretty silly policy unfortunately
[04:45] <Kamion> Mithrandir: specifically, trying to bring the CD-ROM or the network up so that I can read a Kickstart file from it before language selection happens
[04:46] <Kamion> Mithrandir: udpkg -i ... but I might have to wget them. I want to use the existing retriever/anna infrastructure.
[04:46] <Kamion> Mithrandir: and the /var/lib/dpkg/status thing is because I want the retriever to run again later. I might be able to avoid that one, though.
[04:49] <smurfix> Kamion: The selector which first runs is kbd-chooser/method, which needs its default selection passed to it, which didn't happen when it was preset.
[04:49] <smurfix> Kamion: Testing now.
[04:49] <Kamion> smurfix: oh, ok
[04:50] <Kamion> smurfix: I was actually thinking of preseeding that too, but it would probably be good if kbd-chooser behaved gracefully when the priority is too high for that question to be shown
[04:51] <thom> jdub: nod
[04:51] <smurfix> Kamion: I'll check that too while I'm at it. Anyway that one is something kbd-chooser-internal and thus never should need to be preseeded.
[04:52] <Kamion> smurfix: thanks :)
[04:56] <T-Bone> Kamion: firefox needing fixing? How so?
[04:58] <T-Bone> Kamion: what's the preferred way to get my system back to a known state btw, so that I can go on with ooffice? apt-get remove --purge 'language-support-*' ?
[05:02] <pitti> carlos: did you read Mark's latest reply to the rosetta import discussion?
[05:03] <carlos> pitti: doing it atm
[05:04] <pitti> carlos: it seems that there is now a consensus to put the mo files into the tarballs
[05:04] <pitti> carlos: and do the mapping externally
[05:05] <pitti> carlos: can you please tell me when I shall upload a new pkgstriptranslations with the new domains.txt format?
[05:05] <pitti> carlos: i. e. which maps translation domains to their deb files?
[05:06] <carlos> pitti: sure, as soon as I implement it and it's moved into dogfood
[05:06] <carlos> pitti: could you add a note to the spec talking about the domains.txt file format?
[05:06] <pitti> carlos: okay, you should implement it first, then I do the modification
[05:07] <pitti> carlos: just ping me
[05:07] <pitti> carlos: yes, I'll do
[05:07] <carlos> pitti: thanks
[05:07] <pitti> carlos: to which spec
[05:07] <pitti> ?
[05:07] <carlos> the POAttach one
[05:07] <pitti> ah, ok
[05:08] <Kamion> T-Bone: well, it segfaults, judging from your log?
[05:08] <Kamion> T-Bone: yeah, remove whatever's broken
[05:08] <Kamion> T-Bone: or 'apt-get -f install' might do it
[05:23] <smurfix> Kamion: now drops back to main-menu: "Priority changed externally, setting main-menu default to 'medium' (CRITICAL)"
[05:24] <smurfix> Kamion: any idea why that'd happen?
[05:24] <Kamion> smurfix: some postinst returned non-zero, usually
[05:25] <smurfix> Kamion: Ah, happily it didn't log which one. :-/
[05:31] <Kamion> smurfix: should've done ...
[05:32] <pitti> carlos: can you please review my changes to PoAttach?
[05:32] <carlos> sure
[05:34] <elmo> Kamion/T-Bone: FYI, the problem was a firmware bug - the EFI client only works once, any subsequent attempts fail.  it worked flawlessly after a cold-reset.
[05:34] <T-Bone> Kamion: damn you were right. NFC what's wrong with firefox :(
[05:34] <T-Bone> elmo: doh. that's a nice thing to write down somewhere :P
[05:35] <elmo> s/client/TFTP client/
[05:36] <Kamion> T-Bone: the same thing's been happening in live CD rootfs builds
[05:36] <Kamion> T-Bone: probably another reason mdz thinks the port needs work :)
[05:36] <T-Bone> Kamion: this is whole new bug. How comes such a bug could enter the 'freezing' release???
[05:37] <Kamion> T-Bone: it's been happening for at least a week or two; how come it didn't get noticed by the ia64 people sooner? :)
[05:37] <Kamion> actually, that's unfair, I think Remi noticed it
[05:38] <Kamion> but it needs somebody with an ia64 to debug it
[05:38] <Kamion> since it seems to be ia64-specific
[05:38] <T-Bone> lamont: thinks it happens on hppa as well
[05:38] <Kamion> ok
[05:38] <T-Bone> what scares me is that i see no trace of that bug in Debian BTS
[05:39] <thom> hrm, i'll have to try on mine; i'm pretty sure it didn't happen during install
[05:39] <Kamion> thom: yeah, you said that before I remember
[05:39] <T-Bone> Kamion: no correlation between -4 ABI bump and that bug?
[05:39] <Kamion> T-Bone: no, it was before -4
[05:39] <T-Bone> ok
[05:39] <T-Bone> it's the first time i've seen this
[05:40] <T-Bone> last ISO i've been trying was array5...
[05:40] <T-Bone> kinda surprising
[05:40] <lamont> T-Bone: I haven't tried it on debian/hppa - dunno if it happens there or not
[05:41] <Kamion> I thought it happened with array5 too
[05:41] <T-Bone> this is really annoying. We were almost there... :P
[05:41] <Kamion> I'm sure I remember there being problems generating the live CD
[05:42] <lamont> Kamion: the current livecd issue is that libbonobo is ftbfs -> ubuntu-desktop fails to install
[05:42] <lamont> and that bug is in both debian and ubuntu
[05:44] <lamont> Kamion: speaking of livecd's....
[05:44] <lamont> did you kick a set since I built new rootfs's for you?
[05:47] <lamont> since the one I have (from 10 Feb) kinda sucks rocks
[05:47] <thom> ok, i just did a purge and reinstall of firefox on ia64, no problems
[05:48] <lamont> thom: current ia64?
[05:48] <thom> um
[05:48] <thom> or not
[05:48] <thom> Setting up linux-image-2.6.10-4-mckinley-smp (2.6.10-24) ...
[05:48] <thom> /usr/bin/ldd: line 153: /lib/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2: No such file or directory
[05:48] <thom> ldd: /lib/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 exited with unknown exit code (127)
[05:48] <T-Bone> lamont: no bug on debian
[05:48] <thom> Failed to create initrd image.
[05:49] <lamont> thom: WTH?!?!?
[05:49] <T-Bone> thom: 'x86-64'???
[05:49] <Kamion> lamont: not yet, just kicked
[05:49] <thom> please explain why initrd-tools on ia64 is trying to get at /lib/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 ?
[05:49] <thom> *please*?
[05:50] <T-Bone> doh
[05:50] <T-Bone> it's not firefox at fault
[05:50] <T-Bone> the error happens when setting up mozilla-firefox-locale-en-gb
[05:50] <Kamion> yes but it's firefox segfaulting
[05:51] <Kamion> Updating mozilla-firefox chrome registry.../usr/sbin/update-mozilla-firefox-chrome: line 95: 24544 Segmentation fault      firefox-bin -register >/dev/null 2>&1
[05:51] <T-Bone> Kamion: yeah I see that. If it wasn't devnull'd maybe we'd have more info :P
[05:57] <trulux> pitti: libssp cvs done
[05:57] <trulux> pitti: packages now being worked
[05:57] <trulux> 10 minutes
[05:57] <pitti> trulux: you mean you release a new upstream tarball?
[05:58] <trulux> yeah
[05:58] <trulux> pitti: one moment
[05:58] <pitti> trulux: if that's ready, I can build new debs
[05:58] <trulux> great
[05:58] <mdz> morning
[05:58] <trulux> mdz: hey!
[05:58] <trulux> pitti: http://cvs.tuxedo-es.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/libssp.tar.gz?view=tar
[05:58] <pitti> Hi mdz
[05:58] <trulux> pitti: going to work out the selinux-support meta package now
[05:58] <trulux> pitti: one moment
[05:59] <trulux> pitti: I need to fix the Makefile for make you able to compile without a ssp-enabled gcc
[05:59] <T-Bone> fascinating
[05:59] <Kamion> lamont: live CD up
[06:00] <thom> hey mdz
[06:00] <lamont> yep.  definitely time to go to a place where bandwidth is available.
[06:00] <T-Bone> so on one hand you have update registry failing because of missing files (langpacks), and otoh, firefox-bin -register segfaults in a munmap call :P
[06:00] <mdz> thom: have some time for a voice call today?
[06:00] <thom> mdz: sure
[06:00] <thom> when is good?
[06:01] <dholbach> re
[06:02] <lamont> T-Bone: heh.
[06:03] <T-Bone> and ubuntu has 1-6
[06:04] <thom> T-Bone: unstable also
[06:04] <lamont> T-Bone: what's with this testing crap, eh?
[06:04] <T-Bone> thom: of course
[06:04] <T-Bone> lamont: heh
[06:04] <thom> and i'm pretty damn confident we have no local patches on the javascript stuff, which is where it looks to be blowing up
[06:05] <T-Bone> yes
[06:05] <T-Bone> at least that's what i could figure out of strace
[06:05] <thom> 0x2000000000136001 in js_strlen () from /usr/lib/mozilla-firefox/libmozjs.so
[06:05] <thom> (gdb) bt
[06:05] <thom> #0  0x2000000000136001 in js_strlen ()
[06:05] <thom>    from /usr/lib/mozilla-firefox/libmozjs.so
[06:05] <thom> #1  0x2000000000135100 in js_NewStringCopyZ ()
[06:05] <thom> i'm going to warm my house up and get a debug build built
[06:05] <T-Bone> heh
[06:06] <T-Bone> i wish you good luck :)
[06:06] <mdz> thom: more than 1 hour from now would be best, give me some time to get started on my day
[06:06] <thom> mdz: sure; i have no plans for the evening bar getting firefox 1.0.1 packaged
[06:07] <T-Bone> thom: i'll focus on the ooffice stuff then. Thx for having a look at this anyway :)
[06:07] <thom> T-Bone: want to work out initrd-tools, too? :P
[06:07] <HiddenWolf> thom: yay :)
[06:08] <T-Bone> thom: that's a jbailey thing :)
[06:08] <thom> T-Bone: coward :-)
[06:08] <T-Bone> thom: that's my second name :^)
[06:09] <thom> heh
[06:09] <HiddenWolf> Hey Thom: when do I get my icon for 'history' in FF? :)
[06:10] <mdz> thom: maybe a mozilla-firefox-dbg package would be useful?  it's trivial these days
[06:10] <mdz> thom: I bet it would be about 200M though
[06:10] <Kamion> elmo would love that
[06:10] <T-Bone> heh
[06:10] <thom> mdz: i was thinking about that
[06:11] <thom> mdz: but it would be gargantuan :/
[06:11] <doko> lamont: please could you reschedule gcc-snapshot?
[06:12] <Kamion> debugging stuff that happens before d-i main-menu starts up is hard :-/
[06:12] <Kamion> boot with init=/bin/sh, edit /etc/inittab, exec /sbin/init, step through /sbin/debian-installer by hand ...
[06:13] <lamont> doko: debian/{hppa,ia64}?
[06:13] <lamont> doko: or where?
[06:14] <doko> lamont: all archs, updated build-deps are now in the archive.
[06:15] <pitti> trulux: can you please put the new libssp to http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=118309
[06:17] <lamont> doko: on debian though? or does ubuntu even have gcc-snapshot?
[06:18] <lamont> ah, universe
[06:18] <doko> lamont: ubuntu
[06:21] <lamont> doko: done
[06:21] <thom> mdz: a vacation's worth of joy?
[06:23] <lamont> thom: you heartless bastard you
[06:24] <thom> lamont: me?
[06:25] <lamont> heh
[06:26] <trulux> pitti: now it's maintained at tuxedo-es.org
[06:26] <Kamion> mdz: and all totally unthreaded, yay
[06:26] <trulux> let me update the new tree
[06:26] <trulux> pitti: committing to cvs
[06:26] <Kamion> thom: what happened to that bugzilla threading patch?
[06:26] <seb128> lamont: any idea of why gnome-session 2.9.4-0ubuntu3 is not in the archive/built ?
[06:27] <thom> Kamion: i was just thinking that; i wonder where we can steal it from
[06:27] <seb128> hum
[06:27] <seb128> it's built
[06:27] <seb128> just not on archive
[06:27] <Kamion> hello, debconf answer, where did you disappear to?
[06:27] <mdz> Kamion: what do you think about adding a check to debian-cd to bail out if the kernel doesn't match between the CD and the cloop image?
[06:28] <lamont> Feb 25 16:44:02 buildd-uploader: Setting to Uploaded(hoary): gnome-session 
[06:28] <lamont> NEW maybe?
[06:28] <Kamion> that would require debian-cd being able to look inside the cloop image
[06:28] <mdz> Kamion: filesystem.manifest should be sufficient
[06:28] <Kamion> I suppose it could check the manifest
[06:28] <lamont> seb128: were it not new, it should have arrived in the archive 20 minutes ago
[06:28] <Kamion> mdz: do you want exact version check, or just ABI?
[06:28] <Kamion> (I'd expect the latter)
[06:29] <mdz> Kamion: ABI would be most appropriate for the daily builds, I suppose
[06:29] <lamont> seb128: you mean these:
[06:29] <lamont> <img src="/icons/unknown.gif" alt="[   ] "> <a href="gnome-session_2.9.4-0ubuntu3_amd64.deb">gnome-session_2.9.4-..&gt;</a> 25-Feb-2005 16:50  303K
[06:29] <lamont> <img src="/icons/unknown.gif" alt="[   ] "> <a href="gnome-session_2.9.4-0ubuntu3_i386.deb">gnome-session_2.9.4-..&gt;</a> 25-Feb-2005 16:45  280K
[06:29] <lamont> <img src="/icons/unknown.gif" alt="[   ] "> <a href="gnome-session_2.9.4-0ubuntu3_ia64.deb">gnome-session_2.9.4-..&gt;</a> 25-Feb-2005 16:50  346K
[06:29] <lamont> <img src="/icons/unknown.gif" alt="[   ] "> <a href="gnome-session_2.9.4-0ubuntu3_powerpc.deb">gnome-session_2.9.4-..&gt;</a> 25-Feb-2005 16:50  293K
[06:29] <Kamion> mdz: ok, will do
[06:29] <mdz> I'd rather have those builds fail, than produce CDs without a chance of working
[06:29] <mdz> thanks
[06:29] <lamont> seb128: --> slow mirror
[06:29] <seb128> lamont: http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/g/gnome-session/ 
[06:29] <seb128> lamont: k
[06:30] <lamont> seb128: my cut is from the master machine, not the 'master-mirror'
[06:30] <seb128> k
[06:30] <lamont> mdz: that's the one thing that wiki/BuildDaemons is missing (time to mirror to archive.u.c is sometimes non-zero)
[06:31] <seb128> thom: this version of gnome-session has the powermanagement stuff in the session dialog if you can try it
[06:31] <Kamion> lamont: I take it you haven't been seeing #4940 of late either?
[06:32] <trulux> anybody here has the OLS LaTeX class?
[06:33] <smurfix> Kamion: kbd-chooser should be OK now.
[06:33] <thom> seb128: 0ubuntu2?
[06:33] <thom> k, will test in a few
[06:33] <seb128> thom: no, 0ubuntu3
[06:34] <Kamion> smurfix: thanks a lot
[06:34] <seb128> thom: read some line before, mirror slowness
[06:34] <smurfix> Kamion: He, it's my bug, I fix it. ;-)
[06:41] <mdz> lamont: -24 is the one which includes noinotify-by-default, right?
[06:41] <thom> oh, right
[06:42] <pitti> bye everybody
[06:43] <mdz> Kamion: would apt-cdrom -m be simpler than what you did in base-config (2.62ubuntu6) ?
[06:43] <lamont> mdz: yes
[06:43] <mdz> lamont: ok, thanks
[06:43] <mdz> so it's on the current daily-live
[06:43] <lamont> mdz: and identical (broken) behavior to -23 if you enable it
[06:44] <mdz> inotify looks like a bust
[06:44] <mdz> should we even keep it in the tree for hoary?
[06:44] <lamont> yeah - that's why I had Kamion build them again
[06:44] <lamont> removal is an abi-event
[06:44] <lamont> new patch is quite likely an abi event
[06:44] <lamont> (that's not checked yet though)
[06:45] <lamont> rml is apparently working on a better patch - I'd like to include that in the hoary tree, although probably not enabled at this late date
[06:45] <T-Bone> lamont: so once i've built openoffice.org-amd64 on ia64, what's the next step? :)
[06:46] <lamont> T-Bone: figure out what it takes to make it run..
[06:46] <T-Bone> lamont: loads of scary unmet deps :P
[06:47] <lamont> mrf
[06:47] <T-Bone> (ia32-libs*)
[06:47] <Kamion> mdz: base-config already does apt-cdrom -m
[06:47] <lamont> those should be built already on ia64 - if not, apt-get source, vi debian/control; uch -i; build
[06:47] <Kamion> mdz: the point was more that apt-setup (not apt-cdrom) tries to handle /cdrom mounting/unmounting
[06:48] <T-Bone> uch heh? :)
[06:48] <Kamion> T-Bone: um ...
[06:48] <Kamion>  ia32-libs | 0.5ubuntu2 |    hoary/main | source, amd64, ia64
[06:48] <mdz> Kamion: ah, I misunderstood then
[06:48] <Kamion> ia32-libs-dev | 0.5ubuntu2 |    hoary/main | amd64, ia64
[06:48] <thom> hrm, lets see if that gets us threading
[06:48] <T-Bone>  openoffice.org-bin: Depends: ia32-libs-openoffice.org (>= 1ubuntu4) but it is not going to be installed
[06:49] <T-Bone>   openoffice.org-gtk-gnome: Depends: ia32-libs-gtk (>= 2) but it is not going to be installed
[06:49] <Kamion> ia32-libs-openoffice.org |   1ubuntu4 |    hoary/main | source, amd64, ia64
[06:49] <Kamion> ia32-libs-gtk |          2 |    hoary/main | source, amd64, ia64
[06:49] <T-Bone> o_O
[06:49] <Kamion> apt-get install ia32-libs-gtk and see what that says
[06:49] <T-Bone>  ia32-libs-gtk: Depends: ia32-libs (>= 0.5ubuntu2) but it is not going to be installed
[06:49] <T-Bone> happy circular deps
[06:49] <Kamion> and now apt-get install ia32-libs
[06:50] <Kamion> I see no circular deps so far
[06:50] <T-Bone> same as before
[06:50] <Kamion> which was?
[06:50] <T-Bone> hmm
[06:50] <T-Bone> i'm an idiot
[06:50] <Kamion> ia32-libs has no dependencies
[06:50] <T-Bone> that was the issue
[06:50] <T-Bone> ;)
[06:50] <lamont> lol
[06:50] <Kamion> probably your broken apt database from the earlier problems
[06:50] <T-Bone> actually that *is* the issue, It's not likely it's gonna be fixed soon ;)
[06:51] <T-Bone> Kamion: nah. Missed the 'apt-get -f install' step :)
[06:51] <Kamion> install stuff with dpkg -i to get you going
[06:51] <lamont> anybody need anything before I disappear for 30-60 minutes on my way into town?
[06:51] <mdz> Kamion: do you have a milestone release checklist?
[06:52] <HiddenWolf> lamont: I'll give you my bankaccount number. fill it up. ;)
[06:52] <Kamion> mdz: not really :(
[06:52] <T-Bone>   ia32-libs-openoffice.org: Depends: lib32gcc1 (>= 3.4.2-2ubuntu3) but it is not installable
[06:52] <lamont> HiddenWolf: withdrawls work as well as deposits.  fire awawy
[06:52] <Kamion> mdz: well, there's general stuff I've mailed around before
[06:52] <T-Bone> here were are
[06:52] <T-Bone> down to the real issue
[06:52] <mdz> Kamion: if you have some notes or a starting point, please put it into the wiki, and I'll expand on it
[06:52] <Kamion> mdz: ok, will find later, I'm buried right now
[06:53] <lamont> T-Bone: so we'll need one of those...  there's a 32-bit environment for ia64 lying around somewhere.....
[06:53] <lamont> pester dannf et al
[06:53] <mdz> Kamion: right, not urgent
[06:53] <T-Bone> lamont: humpf :}
[06:53] <mdz> Kamion: what's at the top of your list atm?
[06:53] <Kamion> mdz: making kickseed work smoothly with kickstart files on cdrom/network
[06:54] <elmo> Kamion: do you know how to make a usb stick bootable?
[06:55] <mdz> Kamion: is there anything specific which would help move things along?
[06:55] <Kamion> mdz: not really, I'm just plugging away, I'm half-way through at the moment and trying to concentrate on getting the bulk done today
[06:55] <Kamion> elmo: for the installer or otherwise?
[06:56] <mdz> Kamion: ok, good luck
[06:56] <elmo> Kamion: otherwise - I need to firmware upgrade a cd-less machine, but don't worry I found a howto, I'll try that first
[06:56] <Kamion> wow, udev just created /dev/discs/disc-1/part
[06:56] <Kamion> stupid fucking script
[06:56] <elmo> oh crap, or not - as syslinux so doesn't exist for powerpc
[06:57] <thom> yay, threaded bugs
[06:57] <Kamion> elmo: the sum total of my knowledge of powerpc USB booting is in the d-i manual
[06:57] <thom> Kamion: enjoy
[06:57] <Kamion> (pretty much)
[06:57] <remi`> T-Bone, lamont, what's stopping OOo to build natively on ia64 ?
[06:57] <elmo> Kamion: it's an i386 box I need to upgrade - the powerpc bit is my laptop IYSWIM
[06:58] <Kamion> elmo: http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/hoary/main/installer-powerpc/current/doc/manual/en/ch05s01.html#usb-boot
[06:58] <Kamion> elmo: oh, er, ok
[06:58] <lamont> remi`: lack of 64-bit support in oo.o
[06:58] <lamont> remi`: that is, the same thing that's keeping it from building natively on amd64
[06:59] <T-Bone> lamont: iterashai ;)
[07:00] <mdz> thom: omg-threaded-bugzilla
[07:00] <lamont-away> T-Bone: itteirasshai, but yeah
[07:00] <lamont-away> itte kimasu
[07:00] <mdz> thom: you rock
[07:00] <T-Bone> lamont-away: heh, sorry for the spelling :)
[07:00] <Kamion> thom: threading> hooray!
[07:00] <lamont-away> Kamion: anger is bad you know... :-0)
[07:01] <Kamion> thom: hm, the first message in each bug shouldn't have an in-reply-to: header
[07:01] <thom> amusingly, it's 30 minutes of tracking horrible perl, and then a one line change
[07:01] <thom> Kamion: probably, but i suspect that's serious rewrite territory
[07:01] <Kamion> no, I doubt it
[07:02] <Kamion> make the first message have message-id: <bugzilla-$bugno@bugzilla.ubuntu.com>?
[07:02] <remi`> T-Bone, Kamion, sent you both an email about our tests on today's ia64 iso
[07:02] <Kamion> thom: if you want to give me a temporary macquarie account I'll look at it when I emerge from kickseed
[07:03] <thom> Kamion: you're assuming that the bug mail is actually a useful template; it appears not be the case but i'll look further
[07:05] <remi`> T-Bone, does firefox segfault on your box ?
[07:05] <T-Bone> yes
[07:05] <T-Bone> thom is working on it
[07:05] <thom> hrm, i think i see how to do it
[07:05] <remi`> ok
[07:10] <Kamion> remi`: did I get round to saying to you that you can work around the GNOME freeze by booting with 'noinotify'?
[07:10] <Kamion> remi`: the live CD I built earlier this afternoon should fix that though
[07:10] <Kamion> although I have not tested it myself yet
[07:10] <remi`> I don't recall you telling me that
[07:10] <Kamion> ok, have now :)
[07:11] <Kamion> it was broken on all architectures in kernel -23
[07:11] <Kamion> well, -20 through to -23, but only -23 actually built everywhere
[07:11] <remi`> that's what I understood from ubuntu-devel
[07:12] <remi`> Kamion, is there anything specific to ia64 that we can further test?
[07:13] <thom> meh, lets see if this work
[07:13] <thom> s
[07:14] <Kamion> remi`: the stuff T-Bone was mentioning above about OOo/ia32-libs/etc. is currently the highest priority; anything that thom can pass on about the firefox segfault would also be useful
[07:20] <remi`> thom, is there anything I could help you with for the firefox segfault ?
[07:21] <thom> Kamion: #6921 just for you
[07:21] <thom> remi`: i'll upload a firefox in a bit for ia64 with debugging and unstripped
[07:21] <thom> if you can test with that and try and get a reasonable backtrace and so on, that'd be great
[07:21] <remi`> thom, ok
[07:22] <thom> remi`: it's building now, but this is a single processor 900mhz box, so it may take a while
[07:23] <remi`> thom, sounds like my gentoo box :)
[07:26] <thom> remi`: heh
[07:26] <thom> (it's also completely unccached on this box)
[07:26] <tuxdisciple> Gentoo...
[07:26] <tuxdisciple> so many bad memories on my poor laptop
[07:28] <mdz> seb128: is there an upstream bug about g-v-m exiting when dbus is restarted?
[07:28] <seb128> mdz: crash or exit ?
[07:29] <HiddenWolf> tuxdisciple: are you masochistic? ;)
[07:32] <seb128> mdz: we have a debian/ubuntu patch to handle dbus restarts IIRC, but it seems to crash sometime
[07:36] <mdz> seb128: I'm not sure if it is crashing or exiting; I just get the restart/close/inform dialog
[07:37] <mdz> jbailey: ping, re: bug-buddy, bugzilla, etc.
[07:37] <mdz> thom: have a moment while you are compiling?
[07:38] <thom> mdz: sure
[07:38] <mdz> thom: I don't have access to my key at the moment due to the hardware failure.  could you add gnome-app-install to the desktop seed and update ubuntu-meta?
[07:38] <Kamion> thom: heh :)
[07:38] <seb128> mdz: so that's a crash
[07:38] <mdz> thom: then, let's do that call
[07:38] <thom> mdz: ok, will do
[07:38] <Kamion> thom: looks great now, thanks!
[07:38] <thom> Kamion: np :-)
[07:38] <seb128> mdz: ping sjoerd/pitti about it, the patch is .deb specific
[07:39] <thom> even if i hate people who use ? : syntax in perl :-)
[07:39] <Kamion> heh
[07:39] <mdz> s/in perl//
[07:39] <thom> mdz: yes, but especially in perl :-)
[07:41] <remi`> thom, could the firefox segfault be related to moz-ff-locale-en-gb not installing properly ?
[07:42] <thom> remi`: the segfault is the cause of -en-gb not installing properly
[07:42] <dasenjo> Hi, how are you ? I'm trying to use jigit to download hoary and got: Unable to find a file to match dists/hoary/main/daily-installer-i386/20041227ubuntu15.0.20050224/doc/manual/en/apa.html
[07:42] <dasenjo> How can I solve it ?
[07:42] <thom> remi`: it segfaults in update-mozilla-firefox-chrome
[07:43] <Kamion> dasenjo: wouldn't surprise me at all if jigdo were broken
[07:43] <remi`> thom, ok
[07:43] <T-Bone> doko: you around?
[07:43] <doko> yes
[07:43] <remi`> thom, so that would explain why firefox segfaults and not epiphany (no xul)
[07:43] <Kamion> dasenjo: that said, that file is still in the archive
[07:43] <dasenjo> Kamion, Is it not working ? I found a Manual Page in the wiki .. 
[07:44] <Kamion> dasenjo: yeah, last touched by me ages ago :)
[07:44] <Kamion> dasenjo: I'll have a look, but probably not today; noted it in my todo list
[07:44] <T-Bone> doko: looks like we need lib32gcc1 on ia64 for ooo to work. AFAICS, it's part of gcc-4 package, of which only gcc-4.0-base seems available on hoary/ia64...
[07:45] <T-Bone> doko: any clue how to work around that?
[07:45] <dasenjo> Kamion, the file exists, I can open it with a browser, what is the problem ?
[07:45] <thom> remi`: yeah
[07:45] <Kamion> dasenjo: you'll have to look at where jigit is trying to fetch it from
[07:46] <dasenjo> how can I do that ? I was trying to edit the .jidgo file .. but it didn't work
[07:46] <thom> remi`: in segfaults in the javascript library
[07:46] <Kamion> dasenjo: running it as 'bash -x /usr/bin/jigit ...' rather than just 'jigit ...' may help
[07:46] <dasenjo> thanks a lot. Im gonna try
[07:47] <Kamion> dasenjo: might just be wrong archive location or something
[07:48] <remi`> thom, i read on a report in mozilla's bugzilla that the js lib was not 64bit safe when manipulating doubles and floats
[07:48] <dasenjo_> yes, I think so .. maybe a mirror hardcoded in the jidgo files .. 
[07:49] <thom> remi`: i'm pretty sure we've fixed that - certainly we don't have that problem on amd64
[07:49] <Kamion> dasenjo: yeah, that's kind of necessary with the way it works at the moment :(
[07:49] <Kamion> also kind of reduces half the point of jigdo, but hey ...
[07:51] <T-Bone> doko: ?
[07:51] <doko> T-Bone: yes, ia32-libs, or build it with a cross compiler
[07:51] <T-Bone> doko: ia32-libs are installed
[07:52] <T-Bone> doko: the issue is with ia32-libs-openoffice.org:
[07:52] <T-Bone>  ia32-libs-openoffice.org: Depends: lib32gcc1 (>= 3.4.2-2ubuntu3) but it is not installable
[07:52] <doko> yes, but they don't have libgcc32, because on amd64 it's built as part of the biarch compiler.
[07:52] <T-Bone> yumm
[07:52] <T-Bone> doko: ok, so what would be the best thing to do, bearing in mind we want something suitable for the release...
[07:54] <thom> mdz: seeds and ubuntu-meta done
[07:55] <thom> mdz: home phone # on the wiki best for me...
[07:55] <remi`> thom, let me know when your build is done if you'd like extra testing
[07:56] <doko> both ways should work (re-adding gcc-4.0 to ia32-libs), or try to build with a cross compiler). The latter should work, but wasn't tested very well.
[07:56] <thom> it's building the debs now
[07:56] <mdz> thom: ok, thanks
[07:56] <T-Bone> doko: build what with a XC?
[07:56] <mdz> Kamion: any reason not to add rescue mode to the casper seed?
[07:56] <remi`> thom, ok
[07:58] <T-Bone> otoh an XC is a no go on the autobuilders...
[07:58] <doko> T-Bone: build gcc as a cross-gcc, you actually don't need a cross compiler installed
[07:58] <T-Bone> ah
[07:58] <T-Bone> ic
[07:59] <doko> look at debian/rules.defs and debian/README.cross
[08:03] <T-Bone> doko: i don't understand what do you mean by 'adding gcc-4.0' to ia32-libs...
[08:04] <doko> the ia32-libs package contains all source and binary packages, and has to be built on an ia32 architecture. that's the way to include the source with binaries.
[08:04] <Kamion> mdz: up to you, it'll pull in a few more filesystem modules and such is about all
[08:05] <lamont_r> T-Bone: the ia32-libs package is a boatload of i386 binaries, packaged as source.  it's almost the most evil thing I've seen this year.
[08:05] <T-Bone> lamont_r: ah ok. No wonder why i don't catch a damn thing then :)
[08:05] <T-Bone> lamont_r: what would you recommend as the best way to fix that issue?
[08:05] <lamont_r> add gcc-4.0
[08:05] <lamont_r> :-)
[08:06] <T-Bone> lamont_r: care to tell me how? :)
[08:06] <lamont_r> somewhere in there it has a list of packages that it snarfs up to build the source
[08:06] <T-Bone> 'fetch-and-build' ?
[08:07] <lamont_r> evening sabdfl 
[08:07] <T-Bone> but may i innocently ask how building gcc on a 32bit arch will yields a lib32gcc1 package, since it's natively 32bit?
[08:08] <doko> T-Bone: add a patch to name the package lib32gcc1 instead of libgcc1
[08:14] <doko> T-Bone: well, let me know, where and which files in the lib32gcc should go ...
[08:15] <T-Bone> err
[08:16] <T-Bone> why would it go in a different place than amd64?
[08:16] <T-Bone> (not to mention i have NFC how to find that out off hand...)
[08:19] <ogra> :-D
[08:21] <mdz> Kamion: that's fine with me
[08:23] <dredg> question: is it possible to build a package with one or more empty directories?
[08:24] <mdz> Mithrandir: ping, re: utf8-migration-tool ftbfs
[08:25] <Gagatan> I think mith is traveling down to fosdem
[08:25] <Kamion> dredg: yes, people do it by accident all the time because dh_make sticks usr/sbin in debian/dirs or thereabouts
[08:26] <dredg> Kamion: ah, excellent
[08:27] <lamont_r> watched rsync's never finish
[08:29] <thom> ooook
[08:29] <thom> /usr/bin/ldd: line 153: /lib/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2: No such file or directory
[08:29] <thom> ldd: /lib/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 exited with unknown exit code (127)
[08:29] <thom> dpkg-shlibdeps: failure: ldd on `debian/mozilla-firefox/usr/lib/mozilla-firefox/libgkgfx.so' gave error exit status 1
[08:29] <thom> dh_shlibdeps: command returned error code 256
[08:29] <thom> make: *** [binary-arch]  Error 1
[08:29] <thom> ia64 very screwy
[08:30] <T-Bone> thom: ia64 again?
[08:30] <T-Bone> holly shit
[08:30] <lamont_r> thom: we saw that earlier - this somethign new?
[08:30] <lamont_r> or did you reproduce it in debian?
[08:30] <T-Bone> thom: that's a clean environment you have, of course? :}
[08:30] <thom> T-Bone: clean install about a week ago, yes
[08:30] <T-Bone> damn
[08:30] <T-Bone> that's scary
[08:31] <thom> lamont_r: i was prepared to just blame mkinitrd before :-)
[08:31] <lamont_r> ah, ok.
[08:31] <T-Bone> thom: testcase to reproduce that?
[08:31] <Kamion> looks like ldd is broken?
[08:31] <lamont_r> could it be that libgkgfx.so is getting built wrong?
[08:31] <Kamion> what happens if you do ldd /bin/ls?
[08:31] <thom> T-Bone: ldd debian/mozilla-firefox/usr/lib/mozilla-firefox/libgkgfx.so
[08:31] <thom> /usr/bin/ldd: line 153: /lib/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2: No such file or directory
[08:31] <T-Bone>  ls /usr/bin/ldd*
[08:31] <T-Bone> /usr/bin/ldd  /usr/bin/ldd.amd64  /usr/bin/lddlibc4
[08:31] <T-Bone> ldd.amd64???
[08:32] <T-Bone> wtf?
[08:32] <Kamion> although actually yeah, it does kind of look as if the wrong interpreter is built into that binary or something
[08:32] <lamont_r> interesting.  current livecd is 15+MB smaller than the one from Feb 10
[08:32] <Kamion> thom: grep ^RTLDLIST /usr/bin/ldd?
[08:32] <T-Bone> Kamion: seen that?
[08:32] <thom> RTLDLIST=" /lib/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 /lib/ld-linux.so.2"
[08:32] <Kamion> ook
[08:32] <Kamion> own up, who broke glibc
[08:33] <lamont_r> that's just sick.
[08:33] <elmo> haha
[08:33] <elmo> I bet it was that "really safe" multiarch change
[08:33] <zul> i just break kernels not glibc
[08:33] <T-Bone> how comes i have ldd.amd64 installed?
[08:33] <Kamion> multiarch would certainly appear to be the prime candidate
[08:33] <T-Bone> definitely
[08:34] <lamont_r> T-Bone: remember how you were looking for Mithrandir before???  well, now you're really looking for him...
[08:34] <T-Bone> hell yes
[08:34] <T-Bone> lamont_r: though that's kinda nice: it means we're all fixing non issues
[08:34] <lamont_r> T-Bone: well, lib32gcc1 is probably still needed
[08:34] <Kamion> I fail to understand how that patch could have caused this though, unless glibc's build system is way sicker than even I expected
[08:35] <T-Bone> so we can just give them up untill Mithrandir fixes glibc, and work around that ooffice mess int the meantime :)
[08:35] <Kamion> ++ifndef extra_libdir
[08:35] <Kamion> ++extra_libdir := $(exec_prefix)/lib/$(shell gcc -dumpmachine):/lib/$(shell gcc -dumpmachine)
[08:35] <Kamion> ++endif
[08:35] <Kamion> ++ifdef extra_libdir
[08:35] <Kamion> ++default-rpath += :$(extra_libdir)
[08:35] <Kamion> ++endif
[08:35] <Kamion> that's about all it does
[08:35] <T-Bone> Kamion: "sicker" ain't a proper word for glibc builds...
[08:35] <lamont_r> Kamion: any chance that something is leftover in the source?
[08:36] <Kamion> hang on
[08:36] <Kamion> exactly where are you guys getting your /usr/bin/ldd?
[08:36] <Kamion> dpkg -S /usr/bin/ldd
[08:36] <lamont_r> sure enough -I quit watching the rsync, and it finished...
[08:36] <Kamion> $ dpkg --fsys-tarfile ~/ubuntu/pool/main/g/glibc/libc6.1_2.3.2.ds1-20ubuntu8_ia64.deb | tar xO ./usr/bin/ldd | grep ^RTLDLIST
[08:36] <Kamion> RTLDLIST="/lib/ld-linux-ia64.so.2 /lib/ld-linux.so.2"
[08:36] <Kamion> glibc itself is just fine ...
[08:36] <T-Bone>  dpkg -S /usr/bin/ldd
[08:36] <T-Bone> diversion by ia32-libs from: /usr/bin/ldd
[08:36] <T-Bone> diversion by ia32-libs to: /usr/bin/ldd.amd64
[08:36] <T-Bone> ia32-libs, libc6.1: /usr/bin/ldd
[08:36] <Kamion> bingo
[08:36] <T-Bone> yep
[08:37] <lamont_r> oh, great evil.
[08:37] <T-Bone> utter 3v1l indeed
[08:37] <lamont_r> ia32-libs needs to have a better diversion logic...
[08:37] <T-Bone> now i'm really sick
[08:37] <Kamion> so ia32-libs diverts it and replaces it with something that has hardcoded amd64 stuff in
[08:37] <lamont_r> T-Bone: not on the keyboard!
[08:37] <T-Bone> lamont_r: ;)
[08:37] <thom> Kamion: genius
[08:37] <elmo> aww
[08:37] <lamont_r> Kamion: and yet has had ia64 in the arch list since time immemorial
[08:38] <thom> that's so cool
[08:38] <lamont_r> ldd - does that mean we can blame elmo?
[08:38] <Kamion> ./debian/rules: sed < debian/ia32-libs/usr/bin/ldd 's%RTLDLIST=.*%RTLDLIST=" /lib/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 /lib/ld-linux.so.2"%' | sed 's%verify_out=`$${rtld} --verify "$$file"`%verify_out=`$${rtld} --verify "$$file" 2>\&1`%' > debian/ia32-libs/ldd
[08:38] <Kamion> this is the best bug I've seen all week
[08:38] <thom> ewwww!
[08:38] <T-Bone> i should fortune it ;P
[08:40] <T-Bone> who's gonna take care of uploading the fix?
[08:40] <thom> it's bug 6923 when you do
[08:41] <T-Bone> :P
[08:41] <lamont_r> bbiab
[08:42] <T-Bone> given how clueless i am about ia32-libs i may not be the best candidate :P
[08:43] <thom> right, lets try building firefox with ia32-libs uninstalled
[08:43] <thom> it didn't fix -register, sadly ;-)
[08:44] <T-Bone> heh
[08:46] <thom> 0  5584 2368 1552 R 99.3  0.1   0:50.80 dpkg-deb
[08:46] <thom> ber, this could take a while
[08:48] <T-Bone> eek
[08:48] <thom> 22554 thom      25   0  5584 2368 1552 R 99.3  0.1   3:14.16 dpkg-deb
[08:49] <thom> (411M    debian/mozilla-firefox/)
[08:51] <T-Bone> thom: yuck. Wonder what will be left after compression :P
[08:52] <T-Bone> gonna be quite a big package
[08:52] <thom> not so bad: -rw-r--r--  1 thom thom 115M 2005-02-25 19:49 mozilla-firefox_1.0+dfsg.1-6ubuntu1_ia64.deb
[08:53] <T-Bone> indeed. You'd better have a decent link when downloading such a beast anyway :)
[08:54] <thom> AAAARGH
[08:54] <thom> lietmotif% sudo dpkg --configure -a
[08:54] <thom> Setting up mozilla-firefox-locale-en-gb (1.0lang20041216-2ubuntu1) ...
[08:54] <thom> Updating mozilla-firefox chrome registry...done.
[08:54] <Kamion> BEST. THING. EVER.
[08:54] <Kamion> I boot with 'linux ks=http://riva/~cjwatson/tmp/test.ks'
[08:54] <lamont_r> well... that was a little painful
[08:54] <lamont_r> anyone bootted the latest i386 livecd?
[08:54] <T-Bone> thom: you gotta be kidding :P
[08:54] <thom> Kamion: does it all work?
[08:55] <thom> T-Bone: i wish
[08:55] <lamont_r> thom: but can you do that on hppa?
[08:55] <Kamion> kickseed detects the CD-ROM, scans it, loads installer components from it, detects network hardware, brings up the network using DHCP, downloads the kickstart file, translates it into a preseed file, and preseeds debconf with it
[08:55] <T-Bone> lamont_r: it's not fixed
[08:55] <Kamion> *then* it goes into the language question
[08:55] <T-Bone> lamont_r: the dbg package worked out of the box
[08:55] <lamont_r> Kamion: woot!
[08:55] <Kamion> the only remaining buglet is that there's a bit of DHCP spew on the screen, but that's easy to fix
[08:56] <thom> Kamion: that is so totally AWESOME
[08:56] <lamont_r> Kamion: have a chance to see if the livecd boots for you?
[08:56] <lamont_r> mine hangs with the panel on the screen
[08:56] <thom> oh, for fucks sake
[08:56] <lamont_r> but unpopulated
[08:56] <Kamion> I'm not quite sure yet how much I have confused d-i in the process, given that I've perverted its sequence quite drastically
[08:56] <thom> unreproducible with unstripped/debug enabled firefox
[08:56] <T-Bone> thom: lemme guess: failed on the second run?
[08:56] <T-Bone> sigh
[08:56] <thom> T-Bone: that'd be a good thing
[08:57] <thom> this'll be fun to debug, then
[08:57] <Kamion> lamont_r: burning
[08:57] <T-Bone> thom: this is madness :P
[08:57] <lamont_r> thanks - I freely admit that my laptop sucks
[08:57] <lamont_r> although it does actually have 256MB
[08:57] <thom> T-Bone: s/madness/mozilla firefox/ and you're pretty close to the truth
[08:57] <lamont_r> of ram
[08:58] <T-Bone> thom: heh. That could be said of quite some packages (ooo, glibc... :)
[08:58] <thom> Kamion: so what does a kickstart file look like?
[08:58] <T-Bone> lamont_r: if that's quantic ram, where each bit can be 0 and 1 at the same time, no wonder why it fails :)
[08:59] <Kamion> lamont_r: damn, it was using the old vmlinuz
[08:59] <Kamion> lamont_r: i.e. -23 ... sorry
[09:00] <Kamion> lamont_r: the daily d-i build must have predated -24 making it into the archive
[09:00] <lamont_r> and what's with this 3 minutes from the language questions to gnome splash, eh?
[09:00] <Kamion> thom: my current test one is:
[09:00] <Kamion> lang en_GB
[09:00] <Kamion> langsupport --default=en_GB de_DE
[09:00] <Kamion> keyboard uk
[09:00] <Kamion> timezone --utc Europe/London
[09:00] <lamont_r> Kamion: certainly did.
[09:00] <lamont_r> feh
[09:00] <T-Bone> lamont_r: that's genlocale, at your se(r)vice
[09:00] <lamont_r> Kamion: let me go kick a set of daily-di's
[09:00] <Kamion> lamont_r: smurfix uploaded a proper d-i today, checking to see if it's in the archive now
[09:00] <Kamion> lamont_r: should be no need
[09:00] <lamont_r> oh, even better
[09:00] <Kamion> T-Bone: sevice?
[09:01] <thom> Kamion: that's all? sweet
[09:01] <Kamion> thom: well, that only preseeds part of the install, it's not complete
[09:01] <thom> sure
[09:01] <T-Bone> Kamion: "abuse" in french
[09:01] <thom> i was expecting some xml monstrosity
[09:01] <Kamion> there aren't actually appropriate kickstart variables for all of the questions we ask (e.g. initial username/password)
[09:01] <Kamion> so I need to extend the format a bit
[09:02] <Kamion> elmo: could you byhand d-i ubuntu17?
[09:02] <elmo> done
[09:02] <Kamion> ta
[09:02] <Kamion> wow, that was quick
[09:03] <thom> i think we should blame elmo for the ldd madness on ia64
[09:03] <lamont_r> thom: remember - he knows where you live
[09:04] <T-Bone> lol
[09:04] <thom> lamont_r: this is true, but given his usual performance when driving round london, i'm pretty safe
[09:05] <Kamion> ha, bye-bye dhcp spew
[09:05] <lamont_r> it seems to not do anything with interface-mtu when specified
[09:05] <thom> threaded bugs are such sex
[09:06] <thom> why did no-one harass me about this before?!
[09:06] <lamont_r> thom: because we thought you had tried and failed? :-)
[09:07] <thom> lamont_r: really? if i had i would've whined loudly and got colin to fix it :P
[09:08] <Kamion> why me? :P
[09:09] <T-Bone> Kamion: because you *can*? :)
[09:09] <thom> it's perl and a bug tracking system
[09:09] <Kamion> oh, that sort of threading
[09:09] <thom> in the end, it must be your fault somewhere
[09:09] <T-Bone> lol
[09:09] <trulux> ajmitch: we may need a new mailing list at Ubuntu for SELinux discussion
[09:09] <trulux> ajmitch: is that possible?
[09:09] <Kamion> I keep thinking you mean firefox
[09:09] <thom> Kamion: if you want to fix firefox, you're more than welcome to
[09:09] <thom> i really won't complain ;-)
[09:10] <lamont_r> Kamion: so how fast do livecd's create?
[09:10] <Kamion> lamont_r: about five minutes for the lot
[09:10] <trulux> mdz: hi?
[09:10] <lamont_r> does that mean I can hit return?
[09:10] <thom> hrm, firefox is not fast with debugging symbols
[09:11] <Kamion> lamont_r: on what?
[09:11] <lamont_r> rsync'ing yet another one.
[09:11] <Kamion> lamont_r: no, the d-i byhand hasn't hit the archive yet
[09:11] <jbailey> Kamion: I just got back - do you still have questions about glibc's build system?
[09:11] <lamont_r> or are we still waiting for the d-i upload to publsih?
[09:11] <Kamion> or at least not the mirror on little
[09:12] <Kamion> jbailey: nah, after a bit more investigation we redirected our ire in the direction of the monstrosity known as ia32-libs
[09:12] <lamont_r> elmo: is it time for another mid-day day end? :-)
[09:12] <elmo> it's on the other mirrors
[09:12] <elmo> you should be able to pull it into little
[09:12] <jbailey> Kamion: Lovely, if you need anything else from it, lemme know.  I wrote what's there now.  if you think it's bad now, you should've seen it before I touched it the first time. =)
[09:13] <jbailey> Kamion: It's due for a post {hoary,sarge} simplification pass, though.
[09:13] <lamont_r> jbailey: it was pretty then? :)
[09:13] <Kamion> elmo: hm, maybe I synced too early
[09:13] <jbailey> lamont_r: Well, it didn't use debhelper, and all the arch stuff was spread throughout with nested if statements.
[09:13] <T-Bone> lamont_r: you should have seen that: nice shapes all around :)
[09:14] <lamont_r> jbailey: ew!
[09:14] <jbailey> lamont_r: And there was about 3 times as much perl to get it all glued together.
[09:14] <mdz> trulux: hi
[09:14] <Kamion> no, apparently auckland is just slow
[09:15] <Kamion> hm, but no "update in progress" file
[09:15] <elmo> are you still mirroring off auckland?
[09:15] <elmo> I should move you over to syowa
[09:16] <elmo> when, err, I finished reinstalling it
[09:16] <trulux> mdz: hey mdz, I've asked ajmith for a new mailing list, ubuntu-selinux
[09:16] <trulux> mdz: is that possible?
[09:17] <elmo> trulux: why are you asking ajmitch?
[09:17] <Kamion> elmo: yeah, auckland is the one I have the private rsync access to
[09:18] <trulux> elmo: just because he is an ubuntu dev and he is also in the selinux work team
[09:18] <trulux> :)
[09:18] <mdz> trulux: can we make it a bit more general, perhaps a mailing list about ubuntu and proactive security?
[09:18] <Kamion> mirnyy doesn't have it either though
[09:18] <elmo> Kamion: eh
[09:18] <trulux> mdz: sure
[09:19] <trulux> mdz: good idea :)
[09:19] <mdz> trulux: if so, I have no problem with it; jdub would be the person to nag about creating the list
[09:19] <trulux> mdz: ok
[09:19] <elmo> GAR
[09:19] <elmo> syowa being down has broken the mirroring
[09:19] <lamont_r> hrm.. that was the wrong button
[09:19] <mdz> trulux: are you sure there is enough to discuss that we can't do it on ubuntu-devel instead?
[09:19] <trulux> mdz: I'm also going to make the basic selinux-support metapackage (writing it now) and then hack dpkg layout to remove the dirty post-insttricks for files labeling
[09:20] <trulux> mdz: the list will start getting *lots* of issues
[09:20] <trulux> mdz: look at fedora-selinux
[09:20] <trulux> traffic
[09:20] <trulux> :)
[09:20] <mdz> good point; I wasn't thinking of support issues
[09:20] <trulux> among the development discussion
[09:20] <trulux> mdz: separation is good for this, -devel and support ones
[09:20] <trulux> so
[09:20] <trulux> we keep our devs organized
[09:20] <trulux> and clean
[09:20] <trulux> as we do here
[09:21] <trulux> if someone asks, we say "#ubuntu, not here"
[09:21] <elmo> Kamion: fixed really now, sorry
[09:21] <Kamion> elmo: looks good, thanks
[09:24] <Kamion> elmo: so, er, sorry for making a package obsolete a day after introducing it :)
[09:25] <Kamion> didn't quite expect that
[09:25] <lamont_r> you go Kamion ! :-)
[09:28] <Kamion> it's publishing
[09:28] <Kamion> nearly there
[09:30] <Kamion> lamont_r: it's up
[09:35] <trulux> mdz: also, is there any chance on introducing the gcc-hardened packages in Hoary?
[09:36] <lamont_r> wow - that was a fast rsync
[09:36] <lamont_r>    503156736 100%    3.11MB/s    0:02:34  (1, 100.0% of 1)
[09:36] <T-Bone> heh
[09:36] <lamont_r> it's actually going to take longer to burn
[09:36] <lamont_r> (<10MB actually transferred)
[09:37] <Kamion> well, the rootfs didn't change
[09:37] <mdz> trulux: in universe, sure
[09:37] <lamont_r> exactly
[09:37] <mdz> trulux: assuming it doesn't involve replacing libgcc
[09:37] <mdz> (or anything else in main)
[09:37] <trulux> it does not
[09:37] <trulux> :)
[09:37] <trulux> will not :)
[09:38] <trulux> mdz: oops, here there's a woman that calls me for dinner
[09:38] <trulux> she can get angry, and the food, cold
[09:38] <thom> so, the cure to get firefox-locale-* to work on ia64 is to ship firefox with debug symbols and unstripped. everyone happy with this? great
[09:38] <trulux> so
[09:38] <trulux> bbl
[09:38] <trulux> :)
[09:38] <T-Bone> doko: so as far as i understand, i'd have to add gcc-4.0 source to the srcs in ia32-libs, a modified source that will build lib32gcc1 on a 32bit system, right?
[09:41] <Kamion> thom: er, yuck :)
[09:43] <lamont_r> thom: only on ia64, right? :-)
[09:43] <lamont_r> fixating
[09:43] <lamont_r> thom: so what you're saying is that it appears to be an uninitialized variable or something?
[09:44] <T-Bone> mdz: re your mail on d-devel, it actually took 8h to make it. That's why i sent you the mail, though you had already answered
[09:44] <mdz> T-Bone: I was travelling, and it was queued on my laptop
[09:44] <thom> lamont-away: guess so
[09:46] <T-Bone> mdz: i'd be interested to know what are the issues you consider as troublesome WRT hoary (pending OOo fixup, and recent firefox b0rkage...)
[09:54] <mdz> T-Bone: preview is in less than three weeks, it still has major breakage and has seen very little testing
[09:54] <ubuntu> well - 4 minutes + to boot, and pcmcia didn't seem to start itself
[09:55] <T-Bone> mdz: define major breakage please
[09:55] <T-Bone> mdz: it won't see anymore testing if we don't advertise it either...
[09:55] <mdz> T-Bone: ia64 is at about the point now where it needed to be at feature freeze
[09:55] <mdz> we will not cobble it together at the last minute and then call it an officially supported product
[09:55] <doko> T-Bone: yes, exactly
[09:56] <mdz> T-Bone: is there some reason you have not advertised it?
[09:57] <T-Bone> mdz: i don't see what's the problem. Put aside that firefox bug that has recently come up, and the OOo issue i'm fixing, there ain't such "major borkage"
[09:57] <T-Bone> mdz: your mail was reading as if ia64 was on the same level as sparc, which is definitely not the case
[09:57] <T-Bone> doko: ok. Special areas I should be extra carefull (when repackaging the modified gcc source maybe?)
[09:58] <Simira> do anyone here have some time to help me with a system/warty issue? I'm moving a system from one disc to another.
[09:58] <T-Bone> mdz: i haven't advertise because that's Not My Job (tm)
[09:58] <T-Bone> +d
[09:58] <mdz> T-Bone: that's exactly the problem with ia64; no one is owning the problems
[09:58] <Kamion> T-Bone: why isn't it your job?
[09:58] <T-Bone> mdz: i beg your pardon. I'm asked to put up, I do
[09:59] <mdz> T-Bone: you won't take responsibility for leading the porting effort, but you want me to take responsibility for it as an officially supported architecture?
[09:59] <T-Bone> Kamion: because I'm not dealing with 'press releases' of any kind. I've posted around requesting testing already, some noise has been made... I can't summon the community toward that work if it's not willing to look at it
[10:00] <T-Bone> mdz: Since when should I take responsibility for the architecture?
[10:00] <T-Bone> who is officially responsible for x86, ppc and amd64?
[10:00] <Kamion> in fairness http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/teams/ia64 says Thierry Simonnet is leading the port team; I haven't really seen much from him
[10:00] <T-Bone> mdz: bear in mind that i'm a 24-year-old student, and that I do opensource as a hobby.
[10:00] <Kamion> Mithrandir leads the amd64 team
[10:01] <mdz> T-Bone said that he would lead ia64, but then he withdrew and said he was leaving town, and Thierry Simonnet was supposed to take over.  Thierry Simonnet didn't answer my emails about ia64
[10:01] <T-Bone> Mithrandir works for Canonical, doesn't he?
[10:01] <mdz> no
[10:01] <T-Bone> mdz: i *never* said i would lead ia64
[10:01] <T-Bone> mdz: because I *always* knew I couldn't do it
[10:02] <T-Bone> because I have a life aside Ubuntu
[10:02] <mdz> I'll have to dig up the email exchange
[10:02] <Kamion> i386, powerpc, and amd64 are all architectures with enough of an install base among all of the initial Ubuntu developers that there wasn't so much of a need for a port lead, though
[10:02] <T-Bone> a MS (and next year a PhD) can't be prepared out of a few hours of work you see...
[10:03] <mdz> you are not making any sense
[10:03] <T-Bone> i'm sorry that you can't understand me
[10:03] <T-Bone> let me recap: i started that work on a student project which was expected to have a beginning and an end.
[10:03] <Kamion> the point is not that we expect you in particular to have time to lead the port; it's fine that you only have a certain amount of time to contribute, and we're glad you're contributing that time
[10:04] <T-Bone> I decided to pursue my work on my freetime, as I often do on Open Source projects I involve myself in
[10:04] <Kamion> the issue is that somebody, or some group of people, does need to have enough time to take fairly consistent responsibility for driving the port forward
[10:04] <T-Bone> Kamion: that's definitely a sure thing. But I can't be that group
[10:05] <Kamion> and if the leader is spending most of his/her time delegating and making sure the minions :-) get the actual bulk of the work done, that's also fine
[10:05] <T-Bone> Kamion: and (as a freelance/studant), I don't hold the wires in the background, if you see what I mean
[10:05] <Kamion> ok, we're not saying *you* have to be
[10:05] <mdz> T-Bone: neither you nor anyone else is willing to take responsibility for it.  this is why it is not ready.
[10:06] <T-Bone> mdz: maybe. But in no way I can be held responsible for this.
[10:06] <Kamion> this isn't a question of apportioning guilt
[10:06] <T-Bone> I fulfilled all the commitment I involved myself in, so far
[10:06] <T-Bone> +s
[10:07] <T-Bone> even those I knew it'd be very hard for me to cope with given some extraneous very troublesome events that happened to me
[10:07] <T-Bone> Kamion: that's ok. It feels like i'm being blamed for things I haven't done.
[10:09] <T-Bone> nobody seemed to have noticed that the burden is on *my* shoulders, if nobody else hack on ia64, btw :P
[10:09] <Kamion> I don't think anyone's blaming, and I don't think it's productive to think of it in terms of blame; it will only get everyone upset
[10:09] <T-Bone> to that extent i'm very thankful to you (kamion) and lamont for your valuable help
[10:09] <Kamion> including yourself :)
[10:09] <T-Bone> heh
[10:10] <Kamion> actually, if nobody else hacks on ia64, the buck has a habit of stopping at Canonical by default; and there's only so much effort we can afford to put in
[10:10] <Einzelganger> Are there any tests (subscribed,spam) on sending mails to ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com. I tried to send a (long) mail 2 days ago, but it didn't arrive.
[10:11] <Kamion> Einzelganger: it's moderated for non-subscribers
[10:11] <T-Bone> Kamion: 'the buck'?
[10:11] <Kamion> T-Bone: responsibility
[10:11] <remi`> if I may add my grain of salt to the ia64 conversation, i'm part of the students team working for/with thierry simonnet
[10:11] <T-Bone> Kamion: err, then I don't get what you said :P
[10:11] <mdz> T-Bone: I'm not blaming you; I'm trying to explain to you that official support for an architecture requires more than having things compile
[10:12] <Kamion> T-Bone: one of the things that was brought up in Mataro as a means of reducing the "but *you* get paid for it" resentment was to point out that people who're paid to hack also get told what to hack on, and thus basically end up doing the boring stuff that nobody else wants to do
[10:12] <Kamion> T-Bone: which tends to include picking up the pieces from things nobody else is actively supporting
[10:12] <Kamion> T-Bone: but we do have limited resources and we need to limit our exposure to that
[10:12] <T-Bone> roger that
[10:14] <Kamion> T-Bone: ("the buck stops here" is an English idiom, BTW, meaning roughly "the responsibility ends up here if nobody else assumes it")
[10:14] <T-Bone> but then if ia64 isn't part of Canonical's priority, maybe it shouldn't be ever considered for "support". Unless you're willing to rely on community support only, which can vary alot, as one can see...
[10:14] <Einzelganger> How often is it moderated, and do you get a message if/why something is refused ? (send 24 hours ago actually) ?
[10:14] <T-Bone> Kamion: ah ok :)
[10:14] <Kamion> Einzelganger: I think it's on a "when mako/jdub get around to it" basis ...
[10:15] <Kamion> T-Bone: the original intent was that it should be a largely community-supported port, certainly
[10:15] <T-Bone> Kamion: seems that the ia64 community is a rather peculiar one
[10:15] <lamont_r> moo
[10:15] <lamont_r> Kamion: much happier livecd
[10:15] <lamont_r> just placed one with someone I met in the coffee shop
[10:16] <Einzelganger> I'll try to send it again then with a reply-to which is the same as my subscribed email-adres. This moderation is that fairly new, I send this month and it seemed to be immediatly send ?
[10:16] <mdz> yes.  Canonical contributed the necessary hardware, with the expectation of support from the community to drive the port
[10:16] <Kamion> with support from Canonical people where necessary (e.g. lamont's basically the only person with access to munge the buildds, I'm basically the only person with access to munge CD images, etc.)
[10:16] <mako> Einzelganger: i'll look at it
[10:17] <Einzelganger> mako, ah, ok
[10:17] <Kamion> Einzelganger: it's been moderated from day one AFAIK
[10:17] <Kamion> lamont_r: cool
[10:17] <elmo> Kamion: [and launchpad's meant to fix that] 
[10:17] <Kamion> elmo: right
[10:17] <T-Bone> Kamion: yeah. As I understand it, if canonical has bought machines, I fail to see why Canonical's people (which are the only ones to access them) wouldn't have ia64 listed on their tasks...
[10:18] <Kamion> T-Bone: hence "where necessary"; most of the porting effort should not be resting on the shoulders of those with direct access to the buildds
[10:19] <T-Bone> as to the community support, it looks (to me) that the 'community' is waiting to have a "released" product to draw a "verdict" on it...
[10:19] <mdz> T-Bone: if the community is waiting for someone else to deliver a port, that is backwards
[10:19] <T-Bone> Kamion: sure. That's where I (tried to) do my part of the job
[10:19] <T-Bone> mdz: alas
[10:20] <Kamion> T-Bone: right
[10:20] <Kamion> anyway, gotta go, night all
[10:20] <T-Bone> see ya
[10:20] <mdz> in large part, the viability of a port will be determined by the willingness of the community to develop it
[10:20] <mdz> just as with other open source projects
[10:20] <T-Bone> sure
[10:21] <mdz> Kamion: night
[10:21] <T-Bone> the fact is that it looks like ia64 is more a 'market community' than a 'developers community', if i may say so
[10:21] <lamont_r> T-Bone: for the most part, canonical employees don't have access to the machines
[10:22] <lamont_r> for example, I'm the only one with logins on the buildd's. (well, modulo elmo-the-admin)
[10:22] <T-Bone> lamont_r: heh. So what are these machines for?
[10:22] <lamont_r> T-Bone: they're for building bits
[10:22] <dredg> so wht happens if both you and elmo get hit by busses?
[10:22] <mdz> they build packages.
[10:23] <lamont_r> dredg: then we get repalced
[10:23] <mdz> dredg: this is why we keep them in separate countries :-)
[10:23] <dredg> mdz: cunning :)
[10:23] <mdz> it would require a very large bus
[10:23] <lamont_r> dredg: I already got hit by one large truck. that's enough
[10:23] <mdz> or a far-reaching conspirace of buses
[10:23] <lamont_r> the truck that hit me outweighed my full-size bronco by 10x
[10:24] <dredg> eep
[10:24] <lamont_r> mdz: you don't subscribe to the one-bus theory, eh?
[10:24] <dredg> well, i did specify busses
[10:24] <lamont_r> dredg: it was, um, an experience.  and I don't care to repeat it
[10:24] <T-Bone> lamont_r: how many machines does it take to 'build bits'? Or else, what kind of bits are you building? :}
[10:24] <lamont_r> there are 3 for redundancy
[10:24] <T-Bone> err
[10:24] <lamont_r> which is good for times when elmo is rebuilding the datacenter :-)
[10:25] <lamont_r> (right now I have 2 ia64 buildds...)
[10:25] <T-Bone> we're talking about redundancy for a yet unsupported arch? :}
[10:25] <T-Bone> ain't that backwards? :)
[10:25] <dredg> need any more admins? :)
[10:26] <elmo> t-bone: 3 buildds is our standard config
[10:27] <elmo> and non-$$$$ ia64 machines are not fast, 3 isn't excessive
[10:27] <elmo> (heck, the non-fast machines are $$$$, the fast ones are $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$)
[10:27] <ogra> heh
[10:27] <lamont_r> T-Bone: near as I can figure, mark was given to understand that there was a community out there, and that if we built it they would come.
[10:27] <lamont_r> in that respect, ia64 is going at it completely backwards
[10:27] <T-Bone> elmo: how's Debian ia64 buildd doing? :}
[10:28] <lamont_r> T-Bone: I don't think debian has purchased a single ia64 machine
[10:29] <elmo> T-Bone: the Debian ia64 buildd is a) one of 3 ia64 d.o machines, b) faster than ours, c) has less to do than ours
[10:29] <lamont_r> hell - _I_ have better ia64 machines at home than the data center has
[10:29] <T-Bone> elmo: less to do?
[10:29] <lamont_r> elmo: d) donated hardware
[10:29] <elmo> lamont_r: well, that's a prerequiste for "d.o machine",but yeah 
[10:30] <lamont_r> elmo: yeah
[10:30] <T-Bone> anyway. I'm not making up the community. You (ex-)Debian folks know how it goes with Debian ia64 better than I do, I suppose?
[10:30] <elmo> T-Bone: debian doesn't do daily installer builds, debian doesn't do live cd builds, debian doesn't have all our uploads, we have (modulo freezes) almost all of Debian's uploads
[10:30] <ogra> lamont_r: wow, other ppl need 9 months for only one
[10:30] <lamont_r> ogra: yeah, I know I'm good.
[10:30] <T-Bone> elmo: fair enough
[10:30] <lamont_r> :-)
[10:30] <ogra> heh
[10:31] <elmo> T-Bone: debian doesn't do random crack like "rebuild the archive to test it builds" or "build with gcc $v+1", etc.
[10:31] <ogra> lamont_r: we all know that ;)
[10:31] <lamont_r> elmo: speaking of which.... We really need to do that before preview
[10:32] <T-Bone> in the end, what do you guys suggest?
[10:32] <T-Bone> am I to continue that work as a loner?
[10:32] <T-Bone> with no forseable release coming on the way?
[10:32] <elmo> lamont: dude, I'm in the data centre on a friday night, I'm going to be here until the transport goes away.  I'm doing what I can
[10:32] <mdz> T-Bone: as i have said from the beginning, the port needs a lead to take responsibility for getting it into shape
[10:32] <mdz> T-Bone: no one said that you need to be that person, but someone does
[10:33] <lamont_r> elmo: I know - I was just giving you ammo for help with prioritization... :-)
[10:33] <mdz> we cannot "release first, find support resources later"
[10:33] <mdz> if no one cares enough about the port to lead it, then that is a strong indicator that it may not be viable as an official port
[10:34] <T-Bone> mdz: still, there's one thing I fail to understand: in your scheme, what happens if the community decides to drop support?
[10:34] <mdz> T-Bone: if no one is willing to support it, then obviously it would need to be dropped
[10:35] <T-Bone> ok
[10:35] <T-Bone> well, as I see it, there's certainly a market place for a rock solid ia64 linux distribution
[10:35] <T-Bone> now,
[10:36] <elmo> Kamion: is there a daily for i386 with the 'server' stuff fixed, by any chance?
[10:36] <T-Bone> one would have to bear in mind that the ia64 market is rather specific (a niche market, most likely), and that its users are also specific (universities, computing farms, massive calculations etc),
[10:37] <T-Bone> now, if neither the manufacturers of the hardware, nor the makers of the distribution, nor the community at large are willing to take the bet and get involved,
[10:37] <T-Bone> well, everything is rather pointless...
[10:38] <mdz> the current 'makers of the distribution" have too much work to do already.  of course, there is always a place for someone new to become an Ubuntu maintainer and lead a new port
[10:38] <mdz> but in this case, no one is willing
[10:39] <T-Bone> i don't have much insight in the debian ia64 community, but I wonder who's putting up there, and why they aren't interested in Ubuntu...
[10:40] <mdz> interest in Debian does not automatically imply interest in Ubuntu
[10:40] <mdz> perhaps they are happy working on Debian/ia64
[10:43] <T-Bone> mdz: to state things a bit clearly, it boils down to "get the users involved or get the manufacturers to pay people to get involved", as I see it?
[10:46] <EvaSDK> 'lo guys
[10:46] <Gagatan> you're a development kit?
[10:46] <EvaSDK> maybe :)
[10:46] <Gagatan> ;)
[10:46] <Gagatan> evolve with age perhaps.. like a good bottle of vintage port ;)
[10:48] <T-Bone> mdz: anyway, if you haven't already, it'd probably be a good thing that you get in touch with Thierry at some point...
[10:53] <mdz> T-Bone: I have sent email on several occasions, with no response
[10:53] <T-Bone> mdz: at tsimonnet@yahoo.com ?
[10:53] <mdz> T-Bone: is there something in particular I should speak with him about?
[10:54] <T-Bone> mdz: well, he's supposedly the team leader you're looking for?
[10:54] <mdz> I will check which address I used
[10:54] <mdz> T Simonnet <tsimonnet@yahoo.com>
[10:54] <T-Bone> strange
[10:55] <mdz> I emailed 30th Nov asking about the status of various ia64 bugs
[10:55] <mdz> I then emailed 24th Dec to follow up
[10:55] <mdz> because all of the same bugs were still present
[10:55] <T-Bone> mdz: may i suggest that you mail him again stating what are your expectations WRT team leading?
[10:56] <mdz> On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 06:49:19AM -0800, T Simonnet wrote:
[10:56] <mdz> > I'm ok with your proposal and would be glad to handle the IA64 port. 
[10:56] <mdz> (I told him what my expectations were, and he said that he would take on the role)
[10:57] <T-Bone> then if you think he's not living up to these expectations, maybe it's time to tell him directly
[10:57] <jordi> Who is T Simonnet?
[10:57] <T-Bone> i don't particularly like the idea of playing the 'man-in-the-middle'
[10:58] <T-Bone> jordi: ia64 team leader
[10:58] <mdz> T-Bone: I thought I was clear.  all of this happened over two months ago
[10:58] <mdz> I did email him with my expectations, he did say that he would accept the role, I did email saying that my expectations were not met
[10:58] <T-Bone> mdz: yeah, but if you don't have news in two months, maybe it's time to ring a bell? Or else what, are we waiting for the situation to rot?
[10:58] <mdz> it was at that point that the ia64 port entered its current situations
[10:59] <mdz> ia64 is not one of my priorities; I cannot be responsible for reminding the port leader of his responsibilities
[10:59] <Simira> mdz: isn't Tollef handling the AMD64 part?
[10:59] <Simira> port
[10:59] <mdz> that is the idea of having a port leader, for them to keep track of issues and make sure that progress is made
[10:59] <mdz> Simira: yes.  ia64 is a different port
[10:59] <Simira> oh, ok
[11:00] <HcE> Simira: ia64 is a totally different instruction set than x86-64
[11:00] <T-Bone> mdz: your responsibilities doesn't involved keeping an eye on team leaders? They're supposed to auto-watch themselves? So basically if one leader fails at his task, nobody takes action?
[11:00] <HcE> ia64 is a pure 64-bit processor
[11:00] <mdz> amd64 is a good example of how this _should_ work
[11:00] <Simira> hey, I'm just a clueless girl, you know. Never mind me sticking my nose into everything.
[11:00] <Simira> :p
[11:01] <HcE> T-Bone: correct with beer ;)
[11:01] <sabdfl> T-Bone: mdz sets goals and strategy for the distro, the team either keeps up or their work doesn't make the cut
[11:01] <T-Bone> hi sabdfl 
[11:01] <mdz> T-Bone: I'm responsible for tracking the release goals; ia64 was not made a release goal because there was no one to lead the port
[11:01] <sabdfl> hi all
[11:02] <T-Bone> mdz: but maybe you should have complained about that on the mailing lists?
[11:02] <T-Bone> because why would someone else stands up if noone's aware of the problem?
[11:02] <tseng> T-Bone: if no one was aware, doesnt that sort of prove a point?
[11:02] <dredg> T-Bone: so what's stopping you or someone else raising the same point on the mailing lists?
[11:02] <tseng> that no one is taking any intiative to care for the port
[11:03] <mdz> T-Bone: I truly appreciate the work that you have done on ia64, but I simply don't have the bandwidth to drive it in addition to my other work
[11:03] <T-Bone> dredg: maybe because there's some kind of hierarchical relationship between me and the team leader (and not only in the community)?
[11:03] <mdz> T-Bone: that includes searching for a new team leader
[11:03] <T-Bone> mdz: heh. Glad to learn that at least I did something useful :}
[11:04] <sabdfl> so what's the status on ia64?
[11:04] <T-Bone> s/useful/valuable/ - The usefulness remains to be proven
[11:04] <dredg> T-Bone: sorry, i'm not trying to step on toes or pick an argument, i was merely making a suggestion.
[11:05] <T-Bone> sabdfl: well, kamion and I seem to thikn that, put aside the openoffice and firefox bugs, the port is in rather good shape
[11:05] <sabdfl> ok
[11:05] <mdz> it seems to be installable now, and the live CD recently became functional
[11:05] <T-Bone> the openoffice issue is a matter of recompiling a package
[11:05] <sabdfl> those are both good news
[11:05] <sabdfl> is oo.o2 better?
[11:05] <T-Bone> the firefox one just came out last week and seem a bit trickier
[11:07] <mdz> my opinion is that ia64 could probably be made ready for hoary if someone with the necessary skills were able to devote a significant chunk of time per week to it
[11:07] <T-Bone> oo.o2 isn't available yet on ia64, afaict
[11:07] <mdz> as Tollef did for Warty/amd64
[11:07] <T-Bone> mdz: that would certainly speed up things by several orders of magnitude
[11:08] <mdz> but it is by no means a sure thing
[11:08] <mdz> preview is less than three weeks away, and ia64 is still significantly behind the big three architectures
[11:08] <T-Bone> i do not agree on the "significantly' there
[11:08] <T-Bone> but it's only my opinion
[11:09] <sabdfl> T-Bone: can you quantify that - do we have a per-architecture ftbfs list?
[11:09] <T-Bone> afaict, everything works in Ubuntu-desktop except oo.o and firefox
[11:10] <mdz> there are bugs in bugzilla for FTBFS on ia64
[11:10] <T-Bone> sabdfl: the only ftbfs i'm aware for ia64 is libbonobo, and that's a bug existing in debian as well
[11:10] <mdz> there are uninstallable packages on ia64; language-support-en was uninstallable the last time I looked, but that may have changed
[11:10] <mdz> that would have been a side effect of oo.o being completely missing
[11:11] <T-Bone> it is
[11:11] <seb128> T-Bone: hum ?
[11:12] <seb128> T-Bone: libbonobo is fine in debian afaik
[11:12] <mdz> T-Bone: oo.o and firefox are two of the cornerstones of ubuntu-desktop :-)
[11:13] <elmo> ia64 has 4 main packages in failed, 4 in building
[11:13] <T-Bone> seb128: maybe i'm mistaking. You'd have to ask lamont-away about that
[11:13] <seb128> elmo: libbonobo sync please
[11:13] <elmo> one in dep-wait
[11:13] <seb128> I've fixed the FTBFS in deb
[11:13] <seb128> we just need to sync
[11:14] <elmo> seb128: done
[11:14] <seb128> thanks
[11:14] <T-Bone> mdz: yeah i know, hence the efforts on them. oo.o should be trivial. Firefox looks a lot more tricky
[11:14] <mdz> http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~cjwatson/testing/hoary_outdate.txt says 7 binaries are out of date, including libbonobo
[11:14] <seb128> T-Bone: this one is fixed now :p
[11:14] <T-Bone> seb128: heh thanks :)
[11:14] <mdz> T-Bone: I think it is overly optimistic to say that it is trivial
[11:15] <T-Bone> mdz: ooffice works with ia32 libs
[11:15] <mdz> it is unlikely that anyone has started oo.o even once on ubuntu/ia64
[11:15] <mdz> T-Bone: you have tested it?
[11:15] <T-Bone> mdz: said otherwise: if you install ia32-libs and use the x86 installer it works
[11:15] <T-Bone> mdz: i'm doing that (had to dl the big installer)
[11:15] <mdz> T-Bone: what installer?
[11:15] <T-Bone> mdz: that's what i've been told by debian folks
[11:15] <mdz> the one from upstream?
[11:15] <T-Bone> mdz: the official one
[11:15] <T-Bone> yeah
[11:16] <mdz> that is not the same thing as the Ubuntu package working
[11:16] <T-Bone> mdz: sure. At least it means no need for code tweaking in oo.o
[11:16] <T-Bone> and it means it can be done
[11:16] <mdz> it has not even been built yet; in theory it could work, but the work has not even begun, much less testing
[11:17] <T-Bone> mdz: the work has begun. See my questions about lib32gcc1 earlier today
[11:17] <T-Bone> i need help in the ia32-libs package, but I'm trying to put up on my own
[11:18] <mdz> Mithrandir worked with that package; he may be able to help you
[11:18] <T-Bone> that'd be cool
[11:19] <mdz> but the fact that you need help means that it is not trivial
[11:19] <T-Bone> no 
[11:19] <T-Bone> it means the package isn't trivial (the ia32-libs one)
[11:19] <T-Bone> i have a grasp of what needs to be done. I don't know how to do it. That's fairly different :}
[11:20] <mdz> if you don't know how to do it, it isn't trivial, by definition
[11:20] <T-Bone> basically we just want ia32-libs to build a lib32gcc1 package.
[11:20] <T-Bone> mdz: it can be trivial for somebody with knowledge in the mechanics of that package
[11:21] <T-Bone> as it is trivial for me to write a new basic kernel driver, but it's not for everyone else :}
[11:22] <mdz> T-Bone: I do not think that word means what you think it means
[11:23] <Simira> mdz: hm, does this mean I shouldn't upgrade hoary in a little while, when it still works?
[11:24] <mdz> Simira: hopefully that answers your question :-)
[11:24] <Simira> :p
[11:24] <Simira> I've no idea of what kernel I have, but I'll check it tomorrow
[11:24] <T-Bone> mdz: what i mean is that it *should hopefully* be a matter of adding the proper parameters to a package (ia32-libs) and put tarballs wherever needed, to get oo.o working on ia64. That's what I call trivial, by comparing to "fixing the firefox segfault" which is everything but simple and requires much more work.
[11:26] <mdz>   trivial adj. 1. Too simple to bother detailing. 2. Not worth the
[11:26] <mdz>      speaker's time. 3. Complex, but solvable by methods so well known that
[11:26] <mdz>      anyone not utterly {cretinous} would have thought of them already. 4.
[11:26] <mdz>      Any problem one has already solved
[11:26] <T-Bone> :/
[11:27] <T-Bone> it's my bad for having been used to relativise triviality of problems
[11:27] <mdz> I'm sorry, but I need to work on some other things now
[11:28] <mdz> if you would like to continue the discussion about ia64, I think it would be best to do it on ubuntu-devel where others can participate
[11:29] <T-Bone> i've said pretty much everything i had to say
[11:29] <T-Bone> and I won't post on u-devel claiming that Thierry isn't doing his work
[11:29] <T-Bone> i just can't do that.
[11:31] <elmo> anyone familiar with the installer over serial console?
[11:32] <elmo> I'm just wondering if there's anyway to break out to menu, or otherwise get a shell
[11:33] <T-Bone> 'get back' should bring you to menu iirc
[11:33] <T-Bone> at least it did last time i checked that
[11:33] <elmo> yeah, I'm stuck in a loop which doesn't have that
[11:33] <T-Bone> ouch
[11:33] <sabdfl> T-Bone: rather than pointing fingers, it would be great to summarise the work to be done
[11:33] <elmo> oh, no, I'm not, I just needed to do it a ocuple of times - thanks
[11:34] <T-Bone> elmo: heh :)
[11:34] <sabdfl> i read that as "an occult of times"
[11:34] <sabdfl> ths porting business is serious... voodoo.
[11:34] <aj> "I'm caught in a loop... I can't break out... Because I'm installing Ubuntu, baby" ?
[11:34] <sabdfl> schweet jaysus...
[11:35] <T-Bone> sabdfl: i can do that, but I can only speak about my point of view. To me it seems that the only issues left are oo.o and firefox. mdz seems to think otherwise...
[11:35] <sabdfl> "we can't go on together, with pernicious lines"
[11:36] <mdz> I think that you haven't done a comprehensive investigation of the issues yet
[11:36] <sabdfl> mdz: did i miss you laying out your concerns?
[11:36] <aj> "and we can't run our system... with pernicious lines"
[11:36] <T-Bone> i guess i'll mail a ia64 status as lamont did for hppa
[11:36] <mdz> T-Bone: that would be good
[11:37] <sabdfl> aj: how about some duelling elvis down under?
[11:37] <mdz> sabdfl: I stopped paying attention to it in December when T Simonnet vanished.  Since then I have closed/deprioritized ia64-specific bugs, and excluded it from my radar
[11:37] <T-Bone> mdz: certainly. Because: 1) i don't know how to perform such an investigation; 2) i don't have time for it and maybe 3) I don't have an incentive to do it :>
[11:37] <aj> "i saw an old friend i know; whose system's running slow; is it because of pernicioun in the lines?"
[11:38] <mdz> sabdfl: honestly, the fact that it has no leadership eclipses the technical issues
[11:38] <T-Bone> mdz: that's something only you can tell on a mailing-list, imho
[11:39] <T-Bone> that's a message that has to come from Canonical, who's the "authority" in such matters...
[11:39] <mdz> that is a misconception
[11:39] <ogra> T-Bone: canonical isnt ubuntu
[11:39] <ogra> T-Bone: the community is ubuntu
[11:40] <ogra> T-Bone: canonical only backs it
[11:41] <T-Bone> who decides what has the "supported" stamp?
[11:41] <T-Bone> that person should be the one complaining why it won't be giving such stamp to ia64
[11:41] <sabdfl> T-Bone: mdz
[11:41] <T-Bone> and that person is not me
[11:41] <T-Bone> end of reasonning
[11:42] <mdz> I don't understand your position.  You still seem to be saying that ia64 should be blessed first, then fixed
[11:42] <tseng> sorry to jump into this, but you seem to be the one most miffed about it
[11:42] <T-Bone> sabdfl: so i'm rephrasing my previous sentence: "that's a message that has to come from mdz"
[11:42] <mdz> that is exactly the opposite of how the other ports work
[11:42] <T-Bone> mdz: not at all. What I'm saying is that you're noticing a lack of leadership, and I'm just asking you to *state* it on the m-l
[11:42] <T-Bone> (if you don't want to state it to Thierry directly)
[11:43] <ogra> T-Bone: who should support it ? if it has this stamp if there is no team to do so
[11:43] <mdz> T-Bone: I already told you that I _did_ state this to Thierry directly
[11:43] <T-Bone> I'm saying that I can't be the one making such a claim, and one of the reasons i can't do that is that I have *no authority* to do so, while *you* have
[11:43] <T-Bone> mdz: two months ago. Maybe it's time to let the community know about that?
[11:44] <tseng> why cant anyone on the team acknowledge a lack a leadership?
[11:44] <Simira> do one need authority to request work on a part of Ubuntu?
[11:44] <mdz> T-Bone: you, as someone working on the ia64 port, surely know first-hand whether the port leader is effective
[11:44] <T-Bone> tseng: maybe because all people involved in the (very small at that point) team have some external relationships with the leader?
[11:44] <T-Bone> tseng: you know, that human factor...
[11:45] <tseng> oh, so its a personal issue?
[11:45] <mdz> T-Bone: at the time that the discussion was happening in November/December, you were unavailable, and now you have reappeared and are demanding an official ia64 port
[11:45] <T-Bone> mdz: for christ sake, can't you understand?
[11:45] <tseng> you hadnt mentioned that before that I've seen
[11:45] <T-Bone> mdz: thierry is 40, i'm 24. That's a point. I owe him everything I know about quite a lot of things. I can't shoot him back
[11:45] <T-Bone> is that clear enough?
[11:46] <sabdfl> aj: "is your memory tight, are they blinken, de lights, are you sorry... we failed... to port?"
[11:46] <sabdfl> guys, calm down
[11:46] <T-Bone> mdz: i'm not demanding anything, please stop making me say things I don't
[11:46] <sabdfl> T-Bone: is thierry at his desk these days?
[11:46] <T-Bone> i'm demanding for an overview
[11:46] <sabdfl> T-Bone: do you think you have the skills to get the final bits done, if you had an incentive?
[11:46] <T-Bone> sabdfl: from 8 to 16 CET he should be yes
[11:47] <sabdfl> T-Bone: is he a full time teacher?
[11:47] <T-Bone> sabdfl: not within a reasonable timeframe if i have to acquire some extranous knowledge i don't have off-hand
[11:48] <sabdfl> i suspect the issue is that Thierry was not expecting to be as hands-on as our other porting leads have been
[11:48] <sabdfl> T-Bone: do you know someone with the necessary skills?
[11:48] <T-Bone> sabdfl: he's not a teacher. He should be reachable from 8 to 11:30 and then from 12 to 16, I suspect
[11:48] <mdz> sabdfl: I was very clear about my expectations in email, and he acknowledged them
[11:48] <mdz> #1 on the list was to respond to ia64 bugs
[11:49] <mdz> and as far as I can tell, no one other than lamont and I have responded to a single such bug
[11:49] <T-Bone> sabdfl: the oo.o issue is a packaging one Mithrandir seems to know about. The firefox bug I could probably try to track down, but then it's not skills again, it's a matter of time
[11:50] <sabdfl> firefox-on-64-bit is not trivial
[11:50] <sabdfl> it's hard code
[11:50] <T-Bone> true
[11:50] <sabdfl> is everything else building fine?
[11:50] <T-Bone> sabdfl: it seems so. Lamont wasn't complaining about any particular FTBFS
[11:50] <T-Bone> (except the libbonobo seb128 just fixed)
[11:51] <T-Bone> sabdfl: i'm working on ubuntu at nights from 19 to 01 and on weekends from friday noon to sunday night almost fulltime (except when I take a break with my GF, who has proved to be rather comprehensive lately :})
[11:52] <T-Bone> still, i'm not very inclined to screw up all my free time just for the fun of it :->
[11:52] <sabdfl> T-Bone: is there anything you can think that i can do to help ia64 happen?
[11:54] <T-Bone> sabdfl: well, any progress on the cloning machine? :)
[11:54] <sabdfl> waht what what?
[11:54] <sabdfl> aj... shtoom?
[11:55] <T-Bone> sabdfl: afaict (but it's always difficult to predict how long a bug will take to be fixed),
[11:55] <T-Bone> oo.o might be fixed by the end of this week end if i can get some input from mithrandir in that time frame.
[11:56] <T-Bone> fixed == packaged/built/tested/uploaded (assuming no undercover bug)
[11:56] <sabdfl> Mithrandir: if oo.o2 can be made to build on amd64, it should build nicely on ia64 too, right?
[11:56] <T-Bone> the firefox issue, i cna't tell yet
[11:56] <sabdfl> firefox is just not designed for 64bit architectures
[11:56] <ogra> T-Bone: Mithrandir is at FOSDEM this weekend.....
[11:56] <sabdfl> it's a deep deep problem apparently
[11:56] <T-Bone> sabdfl: i think so. How would you cope with that?
[11:57] <T-Bone> sabdfl: mozilla works fine OTOH
[11:57] <sabdfl> oh...
[11:57] <sabdfl> seriously/
[11:57] <sabdfl> ?
[11:57] <T-Bone> seriously
[11:57] <sabdfl> maybe i'm mistaken then
[11:57] <T-Bone> epiphany seems to as well
[11:57] <T-Bone> afaict, firefox was working fairly well until last week
[11:57] <jordi> sabdfl: I'm sorry I haven't been able to reply to your request yet. It's hard to get an OK from the People At The Top
[11:57] <Simira> ogra: yes, please tell him I miss him already, when you see him :)
[11:58] <jordi> sabdfl: dunno if you spoke to carlos. I will know on Monday morning
[11:58] <ogra> Simira: i'll do :)
[11:59] <sabdfl> jordi: that's ok, i really appreciate your being willing to trek to london to help us make rosetta rock
[11:59] <AndyR> are many of you going to fosdem?
[11:59] <T-Bone> sabdfl: given i'm single-threaded so to speak, I can focus on one problem at a time. Depending on what you'd like i can investigate either oo.o or firefox this weekend
[11:59] <ogra> i'll go only on sunday...
[11:59] <sabdfl> T-Bone: ok, i have the wrong end of the stick w.r.t. firefox then
[11:59] <sabdfl> i thought it was not doable at all
[11:59] <jordi> sabdfl: nod. hopefully. I'd be glad.
[11:59] <T-Bone> it should be
[11:59] <jordi> And now, it's pub time.
[11:59] <sabdfl> T-Bone: go for firefox, if it's a recent regression
[11:59] <jordi> laters
[11:59] <T-Bone> comparing between working and non working releases should help
[12:00] <sabdfl> cheers jordi
[12:00] <AndyR> quite a few from my local LUG going
[12:00] <T-Bone> sabdfl: will do. Luckily I hadn't planned to sleep tonight :}