[07:01] <froud> African Greetings
[07:21] <froud> enrico: I have added OMF files for FAQ and QG. Build needs to install them.
[11:11] <froud> enrico: you got the updates
[11:12] <enrico> hello froud!
[11:12] <froud> hello
[11:12] <froud> you got the message re OMF
[11:12] <enrico> You mean, yesterday's changes?  Yes, I've seen them last night
[11:12] <froud> no todays
[11:12] <froud> check list
[11:12] <enrico> I fixed the makefile to point xsltproc to DocBook 4.2.1's catalogs
[11:12] <froud> :-) thannks
[11:14] <enrico> oh, great!
[11:15] <froud> so the build needs four omfs and registration
[11:16] <froud> we can't get it into array 6, Kamion already just released it
[11:17] <froud> Array 6 does install the doc packages though :-)
[11:17] <froud> so users will get our updates
[11:17] <enrico> oh, so we're already in the main seed and stuff
[11:18] <enrico> or desktop seed
[11:18] <froud> sure
[11:18] <enrico> (I still haven't gotten around so know these seeds things very well)
[11:18] <froud> once we have the new build it will show in Yelp
[11:19] <froud> At present they dont show
[11:21] <enrico> froud: is faq.omf about the FAQ Guide?
[11:21] <froud> yes
[11:21] <froud> rename if you need
[11:21] <enrico> ok, I'll change the title then (It's the Unofficial Ubuntu Guide)
[11:22] <froud> Perhaps we can work on that for Grumpy and make it official :-)
[11:22] <enrico> And the creator is more like Chua Wen Kiat
[11:22] <froud> yes
[11:23] <enrico> And it's (argh) for Warty
[11:23] <enrico> (now that I see the title on ubuntuguide.org
[11:23] <enrico> )
[11:23] <froud> yes, I know
[11:23] <enrico> Now that the quickguide is almost finished, we could coordinate with Chua about upgrading the guide for Hoary
[11:23] <froud> yes but it must be done in svn
[11:24] <froud> otherwise plovs work was for nothing
[11:24] <enrico> sure. It could be the moment in which we converge
[11:24] <enrico> Another thing I had in mind for post-quickguide was to get access to some document in /usr/share/doc/<package>
[11:25] <enrico> I'll make a wikipage for post-hoary docteam ideas
[11:25] <froud> yes, it bothers me that everyone is off doing their own thing. We need a focused effort
[11:25] <enrico> like a brainstorming page
[11:25] <enrico> which calls for a meeting soon
[11:26] <froud> like there is an Unofficial User Guide :-(
[11:26] <froud> All this defocused stuff will get confusing for the user
[11:26] <froud> b'side we need the help
[11:42] <enrico> 2 new people subscribed to our commits mailing list today
[11:43] <froud> I asked ari if he will be staying with us for grumpy develop. If he is we should create him an account.
[11:45] <froud> enrico: did you manage to build it and see it in yelp
[11:45] <enrico> I built.  Now I try to install it
[11:45] <sivang> morning all
[11:46] <froud> boker tov
[11:46] <enrico> morning sivang !
[11:46] <sivang> hey enrico, froud 
[11:46] <sivang> froud: did you get along with making the docs appear in yelp?
[11:46] <froud> :-) yep
[11:47] <froud> we're cooking with gas now
[11:47] <froud> sivang: enrico is just testing the packaging build
[11:48] <enrico> froud: Ok, I get them inside the "Generic" category"
[11:48] <froud> enrico: ok let me build an dtest it too
[11:49] <froud> all your commits in
[11:50] <enrico> Things show up nicely, except the image in the "Abount Ubuntu" page
[11:50] <enrico> froud: there's a very new commit fixing the title in the QUickGUide OMF
[11:50] <sivang> froud: yep, it's mportant :)
[11:50] <sivang> enrico: Howdy!
[11:56] <froud> enrico: nice, all there and working. Now it would be better if we can get the Ubuntu Docs on the default yelp page
[11:57] <enrico> froud: yes... dunno how to do it, though
[11:57] <froud> that make two of us
[11:57] <enrico> but I can try to figure out
[11:57] <froud> :-)
[11:57] <froud> gimme a hint and I will help
[11:58] <enrico> I'm reporting some tons of bug atm
[11:58] <sivang> enrico: I think I can help here
[11:58] <enrico> sivang: Please do
[11:58] <sivang> enrico: (wrt your last question in -devel)
[11:58] <froud> sivang: go on then what do we need to do
[11:58] <sivang> enrico: is the omf file available from the source pkg?
[11:58] <enrico> froud: and how about the image in the about ubuntu document?  Does it show up in your yelp?
[11:59] <sivang> thom appears to hav already helped you 
[11:59] <froud> no yelp is to stupid
[11:59] <enrico> sivang: yes, but his help is not accessible
[12:00] <sivang> enrico: oh how come? :-/
[12:00] <enrico> sivang: the mail has not reached the list (possibly moderated)
[12:00] <sivang> enrico: anyway , svn co url is the way to go if you just want to checkout the doc repor without having an account right? (I'm doing a couple of thins in between and can't set up my account now)
[12:01] <enrico> sure: plese svn co the thing
[12:01] <sivang> enrico: k, thanks.
[12:02] <sivang> http//docs.ubunut.com right?
[12:02] <froud> sivang: https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk
[12:03] <sivang> froud: tnx
[12:04] <sivang> checking out
[12:09] <sivang> enrico: where in trunk are the omf files?
[12:09] <enrico> sivang: debian/
[12:09] <sivang> eh found
[12:09] <sivang> enrico: yes, sorry
[12:19] <sivang> enrico: I'm trying something at it , let's see what comes out :)
[12:46] <enrico> nice snow storm here
[12:46] <enrico> sivang: thanks!
[12:49] <sivang> enrico: hey I envy you for being in Italy in a nice snow storm
[12:49] <sivang> :)
[01:04] <sivang> enrico: ping again
[01:04] <enrico> pong
[01:04] <sivang> enrico: I think I can creat a topleve catagory for our docs , still checking :)
[01:07] <sivang> bah it takes long to build
[01:07] <enrico> sivang: sure it does :(
[01:08] <sivang> finished :)
[01:08] <sivang> installing (over my system)
[01:08] <sivang> now let's check 
[01:08] <sivang> got it!
[01:08] <sivang> I did it :)
[01:09] <enrico> it works?  WOW!  I want to see
[01:09] <sivang> enrico: it's only an catagory addition, would you like to take on from here?
[01:09] <sivang> enrico: I have some bugs I'm fighting with at moment besides that
[01:09] <sivang> :)
[01:09] <enrico> sivang: just show me what you did
[01:09] <sivang> enrico: but that was satisfactory
[01:09] <sivang> enrico: sure :)
[01:09] <enrico> a patch (svn diff) or something
[01:09] <enrico> if it's short, paste it here
[01:10] <enrico> froud: do you still need a hand for those validity errors?
[01:11] <sivang> enrico: how do I hand install file to scrollkeepr database?
[01:11] <froud> enrico: yes
[01:11] <enrico> froud: gnam gnam, let's see...
[01:13] <enrico> sivang: scrollkeeper-install?
[01:13] <enrico> sivang: post that patch! :)
[01:14] <froud> enrico: http://scrollkeeper.sourceforge.net/documentation/writing_scrollkeeper_omf_files/ar01s08.html#skomf-registering
[01:14] <enrico> sivang: that link is for oyu
[01:15] <froud> you can also test it
[01:15] <froud> scrollkeeper-install -i -p foo_db_dir foo.amf
[01:15] <froud> omf
[01:16] <sivang> enrico: eh, I see now I only managed to add a toplever catagory in yelp, but there is apparently more work to do to make it a "section" with the docs underneath it 
[01:16] <froud> enrico: dunno if I will get to those valid errors in FAQ
[01:16] <enrico> froud: what would the 'base' attribute do in the <chapter> element?
[01:17] <enrico> sivang: would you mind telling us HOW you did it?
[01:17] <sivang> enrico: ok, I don't think you would need a patch for that, here goes:
[01:17] <sivang> enrico: go to /usr/share/yelp
[01:17] <sivang> enrico: then edit the file toc.xml
[01:18] <sivang> enrico:  <toc id="UbuntuDocs">
[01:18] <sivang>     <title>Ubuntu Documentation</title>
[01:18] <sivang>     </toc>
[01:18] <sivang> add this
[01:18] <sivang> and you get a nice toplevel catagory in yelp
[01:18] <sivang> now, how do you make it corrospond to a scrollkeeper databse entry..
[01:19] <enrico> oh, ok.  That's a problem for me anyway, because my .debs can't change a file belonging to another package
[01:19] <sivang> enrico: a patch for this file should go into yelp source package,
[01:20] <sivang> enrico: if you want it to get installed. and yelp is the package which installs it
[01:20] <enrico> oh, yes, trye
[01:20] <enrico> oh, yes, true
[01:20] <sivang> enrico: I hope I helped a bit :-/
[01:20] <enrico> I forgot that we have the freedom of patching the other packages :)
[01:20] <sivang> enrico: hehehe
[01:21] <froud> enrico: where do you have a @base?
[01:21] <sivang> enrico: I can patch it for you if you like, I am just still trying to figure how to match between yelp toc.xml and the db catagories
[01:21] <sivang> enrico: and seb would review/upload
[01:22] <enrico> sivang: sounds good, let's try that.  When you got how to have an "Ubuntu" cagetory, we can just use that
[01:22] <enrico> that'd be really nice!
[01:23] <enrico> froud: it's when validating things: it tells me "faqs/GettingStarted.xml:9: element chapter: validity error : No declaration for attribute base of element chapter"
[01:23] <enrico> I'll start fixing all of them, as soon as I can understand the error message :)
[01:25] <enrico> froud: ops.  While googling I see that someone asked the same question, but got few results
[01:25] <enrico> froud: and he was some "Sean Wheller" :)
[01:27] <enrico> it's happened to me before to look for my problem in Google and to find... my problem, reported by me (or someone working with me) months ago already
[01:29] <froud> Hmm the xml base problem.
[01:31] <froud> Docbook 4.1.2 did not know what to do if xinlcude docs are not in the same dir as the including file
[01:31] <froud> Obviously that was one of the reasons why I used Docbook 4.3 :-)
[01:31] <enrico> uhm... thinking
[01:31] <froud> so solve this we can mv all docs in faqs to ..
[01:31] <froud> then change the fileref values
[01:31] <enrico> that was what I was thinking
[01:32] <froud> you want to do it or shall I
[01:32] <enrico> I do it
[01:32] <froud> ok
[01:34] <froud> enrico: more of a problem is what is the sect-general that all those xrefs link to
[01:34] <froud> I don't see any section called General Notes
[01:34] <enrico> froud: that is?
[01:34] <enrico> Oh.  You can see it in ubuntuguide.org
[01:35] <enrico> it's like a disclaimer
[01:35] <enrico> strange it's not in the repo
[01:35] <froud> Hmm ok
[01:36] <froud> found it
[01:37] <froud> wierd it is in the document &general-notes;
[01:38] <enrico> froud: committed: now it works
[01:38] <enrico> I'll also rename faq2.xml in something else
[01:41] <enrico> I'm checking Chua Wen Kiat's blog: he appeared in another 2 newspaper articles!
[01:44] <sivang> enrico: any progress?
[01:45] <enrico> sivang: the FAQ Guide now validates
[01:45] <enrico> froud, sivang: DocteamPostHoary !
[01:49] <sivang> enrico: what?
[01:49] <enrico> sivang: it's a wiki page
[01:49] <sivang> enrico: I can't figure out what needed to be done furhter to make the yelp catagory valid
[01:49] <sivang> enrico: sorry
[01:49] <enrico> sivang: no problem
[01:49] <sivang> enrico: darn, this yelp --> scrollkeepr relationships stuff is pretty complex
[01:51] <froud> Oh and Jeff agrees
[01:51] <froud> :-)
[01:52] <enrico> I don't know what to say: at the conf they liked the idea of the about page showing up in yelp...
[01:53] <froud> about page and ubuntu docs should be under firefox
[01:53] <froud> use mono to create a toc
[01:53] <froud> much easier
[01:53] <froud> people who use man, use cli
[01:54] <froud> enrico: did you rename faqqqq2.xml
[01:54] <froud> enrico: did you rename faq2.xml
[01:57] <sivang> froud: since when did he agree with that?
[01:57] <froud> since he sent mail yesterday
[01:58] <enrico> froud: no, I didn't rename it
[01:58] <sivang> froud: you mean to the doc list?
[01:58] <froud> are you going to
[01:58] <sivang> froud: I don't get how mono creates documentation tocs :)
[01:58] <froud> sivang: the one and only
[01:58] <enrico> froud: i thought about doing so, if that is not a problem
[01:58] <sivang> froud: or how it can be used to created documentation either
[01:58] <froud> enrico: let do it
[01:59] <froud> sivang: huh now you lost me
[01:59] <sivang> well, I can't give hand to this :) I'm a shaunm fanboy and on his mub ;-))
[01:59] <sivang> too bad his not around at the moment, otherwise he would help us alot 
[01:59] <froud> sivang: most of the packaging problems we are having are caus eof yelp/omf/scrollkeeper
[01:59] <enrico> froud: "faqguide.xml", allright?
[02:00] <sivang> we just don't know them too well :)
[02:00] <froud> enrico: not particular just give it a name
[02:00] <froud> but remember to update the build
[02:00] <froud> I will adjust  the makefile
[02:01] <enrico> froud: renamed.  Testing...
[02:04] <enrico> froud: committed.  Makefile should be ok as well
[02:05] <enrico> now I'm considering renaming the OMF files adding the language code
[02:05] <froud> I think it is a good idea. thom is right about that
[02:05] <enrico> I'm on it, then
[02:06] <froud> thanx dude you're a star. I just don't have much time now to get into new things
[02:07] <froud> Trying to prepare for Linux World JHB
[02:08] <froud> but I had a brain fart and cant think waht to write
[02:08] <enrico> froud: white page panic?
[02:09] <froud> enrico: brain fart two para then stop
[02:09] <froud> delete
[02:09] <froud> two para
[02:09] <froud> delete
[02:09] <froud> two para
[02:09] <froud> delete
[02:09] <enrico> froud: take some playing cards, and some post-it notes
[02:10] <enrico> froud: brainstorm silly ideas for contents on the post-it notes, and stick one idea to one playing card
[02:10] <enrico> froud: (use the back of the card, so that the image doesn't distract you)
[02:10] <enrico> froud: after you have your deck of ideas, spread it on the table
[02:10] <enrico> froud: then, group them without thinking, according to your instinct
[02:11] <froud> its always easy to write for everyone else but never easy to write for ones self
[02:11] <enrico> froud: don't ask yourself questions and don't think while you group them (also while you brainstorm them, if you want)
[02:11] <enrico> froud: after you're satisfied with grouping, turn your rational mind back on and look at what you have and what are the groups
[02:11] <enrico> froud: this is called "Card sorting" and it's very useful
[02:12] <froud> does that work
[02:12] <enrico> froud: very well for me
[02:12] <froud> must be an Italian thingy
[02:12] <enrico> it allows you to "touch" your ideas, work on them freely on a large surface with two hands
[02:12] <froud> never heard of it
[02:12] <froud> lets try
[02:13] <enrico> froud: They do it, for example, when deciding which action goes on which menu on a user interface
[02:13] <froud> and that's why the GUI is so confusing :-)
[02:13] <enrico> they prepare the cards, one card per program function, then ask a sample of users to group them
[02:13] <froud> I didnt know that
[02:13] <enrico> that allows to have the actions sorted according to the brain model of the users and not the one of the developers
[02:14] <froud> cool ide
[02:14] <froud> idea
[02:14] <enrico> I don't know, however, which applications have been designed like this
[02:17] <froud> OK I am going back to the drawing board. Is there anything else left before I move
[02:18] <enrico> I'm quite satisfied with today.  I could upload the new packages to Hoary and then look for mdz
[02:18] <froud> sounds good
[02:18] <enrico> I have tons of things to ask him: freeze dates, yelp or not yelp, post-hoary goals, docteam meeting, notify us when app features change...
[02:18] <enrico> :w
[02:19] <enrico> ops
[02:19] <froud> we still need to close some of those new menu items
[02:19] <froud> I posted about them to the list
[02:19] <enrico> Seen it
[02:19] <froud> pitty if we did not finish them
[02:19] <froud> once we have done that we can do a final check and then final package
[02:20] <enrico> yes
[02:20] <froud> then tag
[02:20] <froud> and meet
[02:20] <enrico> I'll post a recap of things needing help in the list
[02:20] <enrico> yes!
[02:20] <froud> and decide new directions for grumpy
[03:06] <sivang> are you guys planning a meeting?
[03:07] <sivang> ah ok, I'll have to catch up a lot on -doc to see when and where.
[04:48] <enrico> froud: around?
[07:44] <froud> enrico: what's up
[07:56] <enrico> froud: ok.  I had a chat with mdz, I'll post the results
[09:36] <abelli> sivang: enrico: ChrisH 
[09:37] <abelli> ping
[09:37] <abelli> Kinnison: ciao r you here?
[09:38] <sivang> abelli: pong
[09:38] <abelli> sivang: http://socrates.homedns.org/cms/
[09:38] <abelli> tell me what you think
[09:38] <abelli> please
[09:38] <abelli> :))
[09:42] <sivang> abelli: A M A Z I N G ! ! ! !
[09:42] <abelli> sivang: is it this bad?
[09:42] <abelli> ahh.. right ;)
[09:42] <sivang> abelli: I want this also for my local website, simple CMS?
[09:42] <abelli> yes
[09:43] <sivang> abelli: amazing, really.
[09:43] <abelli> sivang: but let's see if ill be the italian loco leader anymore :(
[09:44] <sivang> abelli: why?
[09:44] <abelli> sivang: a person, complained about how, he said, i do direct the community..
[09:44] <abelli> :((
[09:44] <sivang> eh I se
[09:44] <sivang> see
[09:44] <sivang> well , what can say
[09:44] <abelli> the problem is, i didnt direct anything..
[09:44] <sivang> hmm
[09:45] <sivang> well, then start directing :)
[09:45] <abelli> because ive been working on a proper website
[09:45] <abelli> to give support and blah blah blah..
[09:45] <abelli> i did only one big mistake..
[09:45] <abelli> :(
[09:45] <abelli> because i didnt want to leave user without a website..
[09:45] <abelli> we had www.ubuntuitalia.it, opened up some weeks ago, 
[09:46] <abelli> and this person helped with forums
[09:46] <abelli> ...now he goes here and there, saying hes ubuntuitalia..
[09:46] <abelli> when i asked him to respect the code of conduct, he just complained with smurfix..
[09:47] <abelli> im so sad
[09:47] <abelli> ..let make things clear..
[09:47] <abelli> the other 99% of the ppl that worked in ubuntuitalia is with me..
[09:47] <abelli> but im still sad
[09:49] <sivang> well, talk to smurfix and you would be alright
[09:49] <sivang> :)
[09:49] <abelli> sivang: he has no time for me today, hes going in london to tomorrow
[09:49] <sivang> abelli: eh, good for him :)
[09:49] <sivang> abelli: what's going on in london?
[09:50] <abelli> hmm dunno