[06:50] <froud> African greetings
[06:59] <Burgundavia> salut
[06:59] <Burgundavia> I have been out of the loop for too long. What is release critical?
[07:00] <froud> Burgundavia: we have a few nodes with status help in the Quick guide
[07:01] <Burgundavia> where on the wiki would I find that?
[07:01] <froud> Burgundavia: not on wiki, in SVN
[07:02] <Burgundavia> and did you migrate users/pwds from the john's svn to the offical one?
[07:02] <froud> no, enrico posted for people to send user and passwords pgp key etc
[07:03] <Burgundavia> ah, ok, I missed that post
[07:03] <Burgundavia> nev mind
[07:03] <froud> you can do checkout from https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk
[07:03] <Burgundavia> ok
[07:04] <froud> Ask enrico to create your account, then do svn switch
[07:04] <froud> for now just do plain checkout and post patches
[07:05] <Burgundavia> ok, I found the old email
[07:05] <Burgundavia> It was not tagged reference for some reason
[07:06] <Burgundavia> you are Sean Wheller, no?
[07:07] <froud> Yes
[07:07] <froud> why
[07:10] <Burgundavia> just confirming
[07:23] <Burgundavia> I have a question about this: during installation, Ubuntu creates a special user account called 'sudo'.
[07:24] <Burgundavia> This is strictly speaking not correct
[07:24] <froud> Burgundavia: OK what is correct then
[07:25] <froud> remember the audience here
[07:25] <froud> If you want to explain it better, you can
[07:26] <Burgundavia> Better, IMHO, to do an end run around the issue. Simply state that when you need to upgrade the system you need to enter your password for security
[07:26] <froud> sure that's a good idea
[07:27] <Burgundavia> however, how to do I create a patch to send to you?
[07:27] <froud> svn diff > foo.diff
[07:28] <froud> svn diff quickguide.xml > foo.diff
[07:28] <Burgundavia> sounds good
[07:28] <Burgundavia> another note, <xref linkend="qg-ubuntu-update-manager" endterm="title-qg-ubuntu-update-manager"/>, or any link like it breaks
[07:29] <froud> Burgundavia: yelp does not handle the endterm
[07:29] <froud> gnome docs is notified
[07:29] <Burgundavia> ah
[07:30] <Burgundavia> what is quick fix, as hoary is almost upon us?
[07:30] <froud> for details on how t patch see http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepRepository
[07:30] <froud> Burgundavia: no quick fix
[07:30] <Burgundavia> uck
[07:30] <froud> must patch yelp
[07:30] <Burgundavia> the other thing I was playing with in Mataro was SVG with PNG screenshot
[07:30] <froud> yelp does not support properly
[07:31] <Burgundavia> however, GIMP screenshots embedded in SVG in DocBook break horribly
[07:31] <froud> yep
[07:31] <Burgundavia> b/w and normal colour work find, just not screen shots
[07:31] <froud> we use imagemagick
[07:31] <froud> see http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TakingScreenshots
[07:32] <Burgundavia> I have an unconfirmed bug in Gnome bugzilla, if you want to confirm it, we might be able to get some action on it
[07:32] <froud> uri to bug please
[07:32] <Burgundavia> getting it
[07:32] <Burgundavia> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161374
[07:33] <Burgundavia> I haven't had internet access until 2 days ago
[07:33] <Burgundavia> That is why I haven't worked on anything
[07:33] <froud> For Grumpy I am suggesting that we won't use Yelp for Ubuntu Docs, but just a plain web browser
[07:33] <Burgundavia> hmm
[07:34] <froud> We need cross desktop compatability
[07:34] <Burgundavia> Yelp has the advantage of not needing the webrowser
[07:34] <froud> yelp is gnome stuff
[07:34] <Burgundavia> yes, I realize that
[07:34] <froud> we will still install yelp for gnome
[07:34] <Burgundavia> This may sound stupid, not being a KDE user, but doesn't KDE have something similar?
[07:35] <froud> but I would like ubuntu docs to be viewed from browser
[07:35] <froud> kdehelpcenter
[07:35] <froud> works on plain html
[07:35] <froud> ie static doc
[07:35] <froud> yelp is dynamic
[07:35] <Burgundavia> Then I think we need to look beyond just static documents
[07:35] <froud> not exactly
[07:36] <froud> what about users on other desktops
[07:36] <Burgundavia> Ok, several points
[07:36] <Burgundavia> 1. yelp looks like windows help
[07:36] <froud> the fact that yelp runs xml through xsl is not of any use to the user
[07:36] <Burgundavia> 2. we are primarily a gnome based distro
[07:36] <froud> for now
[07:37] <Burgundavia> 3. Dynamic looks and responds a lot faster than static
[07:37] <froud> not true
[07:38] <froud> Burgundavia: the days of help viewing apps is long dead
[07:38] <froud> 1]  we can make it look just like windows help under browser
[07:38] <froud> but I am not inclined to want to ape the windows help system
[07:39] <Burgundavia> yes, but the 2 pane does work quite well
[07:39] <froud> you can have the same under browser
[07:39] <froud> I plan to develop using XUL
[07:39] <froud> the ubuntu toolbar
[07:39] <froud> and ubuntu navigator
[07:40] <froud> the navigator is the tree view you want'
[07:40] <Burgundavia> ok, so instead of one DE we are going to lock ourselves to one browser
[07:40] <Burgundavia> hmm, really dn'
[07:40] <Burgundavia> don
[07:40] <Burgundavia> like that
[07:41] <froud> If I run kubuntu, why should I be forced to install yelp to view ubuntu docs
[07:41] <froud> Bug
[07:41] <froud> Burgundavia: no users can still access the help
[07:41] <froud> perhaps you can suggest a better way
[07:41] <froud> I was thinking HTML help
[07:41] <Burgundavia> I agree that it is messy any way we go
[07:42] <froud> it gives the tree view you want
[07:42] <froud> mes yess
[07:42] <froud> rather deal with the mess and remain cross desktop
[07:43] <Burgundavia> Here is another point Yelp - start is ~1s
[07:43] <Burgundavia> Firefox ~4s
[07:43] <froud> yes, but you are splitting hair on a startup
[07:43] <froud> once a browser is loaded
[07:44] <froud> the plain html is faster to load
[07:44] <froud> Burgundavia: I must take my daughters to school. be back in 5 min
[07:44] <Burgundavia> ok
[07:53] <Burgundavia> Ok, some thoughts
[07:53] <Burgundavia> Yelp uses gecko, just a different wrapper
[07:54] <Burgundavia> Jeff Waugh mentioned that we might be able to use bounty money if we have need, such as that SVG issue
[07:54] <Burgundavia> There are some accessablity issues with Yelp currently, that are caused by gecko. Does firefox solve this?
[07:54] <froud> back
[07:55] <Burgundavia> see my 3 points
[07:55] <Burgundavia> I have one further, regarding the getting started section of the quickguide
[07:55] <froud> Burgundavia: yes firefox solves this
[07:56] <Burgundavia> can I collapse it back into one section?
[07:56] <Burgundavia> how and can we utilise it?
[07:56] <froud> if you want to collapse it
[07:57] <Burgundavia> yes?
[07:57] <froud> explaining how is a long story
[07:57] <froud> Burgundavia: you have mentioned on yelp issue
[07:57] <froud> issues
[07:58] <froud> here is a list of features yelp does not support because it only partially impliments docbook and the nwalsh xsl
[07:58] <froud> no support for 
[07:58] <froud> glossary
[07:58] <froud> index
[07:58] <froud> external link (oolink)
[07:58] <froud> xlink
[07:58] <froud> profiling
[07:59] <froud> no ability to control the xsl
[07:59] <froud> through custom layers
[07:59] <froud> no ability to use CSS
[07:59] <froud> that is just some of the stuff
[07:59] <froud> take for example the quick guide
[08:00] <froud> today we speak about gnome
[08:00] <froud> tomorrow we may add kde to the same document
[08:00] <froud> how to profile the output to derive two docs from the same source
[08:00] <froud> answer: we cant with yelp
[08:00] <froud> next
[08:01] <froud> external cross-reference between docucuments
[08:01] <froud> in yelp you must use ghelp value
[08:01] <froud> this does not work in any other system
[08:01] <froud> so we must create a xref for ghelp and a plain olink for everything else
[08:02] <froud> what I am saying is that yelp limits the features and locks us to gnome
[08:02] <froud> ubuntu docs are not about gnome
[08:02] <froud> they are about ubuntu
[08:02] <froud> the admin guide is on my list
[08:02] <froud> it has zero to do with gnome
[08:03] <froud> the release notes and about ubuntu too
[08:03] <froud> shaunm acknowledges all these problems
[08:04] <Burgundavia> and how much work to get it implemented?
[08:04] <froud> to get what implimented
[08:04] <Burgundavia> the various things you just mentioned?
[08:04] <froud> we do it inline to writing
[08:05] <froud> the problem is to reduce our overhead
[08:05] <Burgundavia> what do you mean?
[08:05] <froud> we can't maintain a kde and gnome and other desktop book for each book
[08:05] <froud> we can't cater for the specific stuff of gnome yelp
[08:06] <froud> and then also kdehelpcenter
[08:06] <Burgundavia> Lets also talk practical. We have NO kde docs right now
[08:06] <froud> exactly
[08:06] <froud> but we will in the future
[08:06] <froud> because ubuntu started with gnome
[08:06] <froud> does not mean it is a gnome distro
[08:07] <froud> mako is already porting user linux
[08:07] <froud> that adds new things
[08:07] <froud> kubuntu is alive
[08:07] <Burgundavia> by user linux, you mean the Bruce Perens' effort?
[08:07] <froud> but uses only upstream
[08:07] <froud> yes
[08:07] <froud> seems the project is dead
[08:07] <Burgundavia> what exactly is being ported?
[08:08] <froud> ask mako
[08:08] <Burgundavia> ok
[08:08] <froud> using native docbook enables far more possabilities
[08:08] <Burgundavia> Ok, we have implemented the entire quickguide using things that are broken in yelp, how to we move forward to someting that looks good
[08:08] <froud> we have the html version
[08:09] <Burgundavia> so what are we going to ship?
[08:09] <froud> both
[08:09] <Burgundavia> Are they going to be installed by default?
[08:09] <Burgundavia> We are generated our html off the docbook?
[08:09] <froud> yes
[08:09] <Burgundavia> to both?
[08:09] <froud> the packages are done
[08:09] <froud> both
[08:10] <froud> the xml is our source
[08:10] <Burgundavia> if we are moving forward with straight html, why don't we just switch to that?
[08:10] <froud> the html will hopefully be our format for viewing
[08:10] <Burgundavia> easier to edit, with less barriers to new people
[08:10] <froud> religious questions
[08:10] <Burgundavia> ok
[08:10] <froud> using docccook is goo
[08:10] <froud> good
[08:10] <froud> we can later do PDF
[08:10] <Burgundavia> ture
[08:10] <Burgundavia> rue
[08:11] <Burgundavia> true
[08:11] <Burgundavia> 3rd time right
[08:11] <froud> and can do xhtml html html help
[08:11] <Burgundavia> and if evince goes in the right direction, we can ship pdf
[08:11] <froud> we remain neutral
[08:11] <froud> yes
[08:11] <froud> what is evince
[08:11] <froud> ?:-)
[08:11] <Burgundavia> http://www.gnome.org/projects/evince/
[08:12] <froud> oh
[08:12] <Burgundavia> a brand new doc viewer
[08:12] <Burgundavia> they have also just forked xpdf
[08:12] <froud> didnnt know about it
[08:12] <froud> thanks
[08:12] <Burgundavia> a new freedesktop project called poppler is creating a commond pdf library for gnome/kde
[08:12] <froud> cool
[08:13] <froud> what about acroread
[08:13] <Burgundavia> I think this is the way forward
[08:13] <Burgundavia> acroread is a pile of adobe crap
[08:13] <froud> hmmm I have this on kde
[08:13] <froud> on my suse 9.2
[08:13] <Burgundavia> and it is gtk1 or tk
[08:13] <froud> tk
[08:13] <froud> or qt
[08:13] <Burgundavia> ugly would be the word
[08:13] <Burgundavia> no, I think tk
[08:14] <Burgundavia> might also be wxwidgets
[08:14] <froud> ok
[08:14] <froud> point is pdf std is open so I dont care what viewer people use
[08:14] <Burgundavia> In any case envince and this new backend might solve our issues quite nicely in the nearish future
[08:14] <froud> cool I will look atit
[08:14] <Burgundavia> however, for hoary, given the state of the quickguide I got today, I say we don't ship it
[08:15] <froud> if people can fix the problem with endterm then I dont see why
[08:15] <Burgundavia> is that is the ballpark for 2.10?
[08:15] <froud> what problems are you specific about
[08:15] <froud> 2.10 is grumpy
[08:15] <Burgundavia> the linkend, which makes the document look absolutely horrible
[08:16] <froud> its the endterm problem
[08:16] <Burgundavia> ok
[08:16] <froud> fact that yelp is messed should not stop shipping
[08:16] <froud> we have the html
[08:16] <Burgundavia> by 2.10, I mean the 2.10 gnome release
[08:16] <froud> oh
[08:16] <Burgundavia> Ok, then lets ship the html and not the docbook until the yelp issue is fixed
[08:17] <froud> we must speak to enrico
[08:17] <froud> he will read the irc log
[08:17] <Burgundavia> HEY ENRICO, READ MY LAST LINE
[08:17] <Burgundavia> there, now he will
[08:17] <froud> or get somebody to fix yelp
[08:17] <froud> fast
[08:18] <Burgundavia> 2.10 is already in hard code freeze
[08:18] <froud> we hope they fixed it then
[08:18] <froud> I gave up talking to deaf ears
[08:18] <froud> both at gnome and ubuntu devel
[08:19] <froud> long ago I advised to stay clear of yelp
[08:19] <Burgundavia> Ok, lets put together a document outlining our specific needs and get it to mdz/jeff
[08:19] <froud> but it's a religious question
[08:19] <Burgundavia> we might get 2.10.1 or 2.20.2
[08:19] <Burgundavia> our release comes after 2.10.1 I believe
[08:19] <froud> I am just writing an email outlining this
[08:20] <froud> it will be posted to ubuntu-doc and cc mdz
[08:20] <Burgundavia> ok
[08:20] <froud> started it when you came on :-)
[08:21] <Burgundavia> Another thing, is there a plan to make the wiki useful?
[08:21] <Burgundavia> I edit WP almost every day and I love the features that it offers
[08:22] <Burgundavia> zwiki sucks donkey balls in comparison
[08:22] <Burgundavia> wikis also allow very low barriers of entry to new people
[08:22] <froud> they do, but putting your docs in wiki is a sure fire way to messup the docs
[08:23] <Burgundavia> why do you say that?
[08:23] <froud> I dont like wiki for this stuff
[08:23] <froud> ask any FOSS doc manager and they will agree
[08:23] <froud> wiki is a bad idea
[08:24] <froud> right now what bothers me is that there is so much effort being dispersed
[08:24] <Burgundavia> you can set to disallow anon's, which would get rid of most things that are bad for wikis
[08:24] <froud> everyone is off on their own thing
[08:25] <froud> which we would like to be baz
[08:25] <froud> but team wont move
[08:25] <froud> :-(
[08:25] <froud> wiki is not designed for this type of stuff
[08:25] <Burgundavia> so post hoary here are things I would like to see-
[08:25] <Burgundavia> 1st point of entry - wiki
[08:25] <Burgundavia> HTML docs, doing the things that are nice about Yelp
[08:26] <Burgundavia> Move to baz
[08:26] <Burgundavia> Wiki *is* designed for documentation writing. Look at Wikipedia for an example
[08:26] <Burgundavia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
[08:27] <Burgundavia> tell me that we cannot adapt to have something like that for our main page
[08:27] <froud> Burgundavia: is that is so then how do you plan to get wiki into the distro in pdf
[08:27] <froud> please add your thoughts to https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamPostHoary#bottom
[08:28] <froud> Burgundavia: have you read the docteam web site
[08:28] <froud> we have several method people can use to write docs
[08:28] <froud> even methods to port from wiki to docbook
[08:28] <froud> nobody uses them
[08:28] <froud> we don't have the human resources for this
[08:29] <froud> every effort is being duplicated instead of focused
[08:29] <froud> we now have an unofficail user guide
[08:29] <froud> WTF
[08:30] <Burgundavia> I am saying that we drop docbook
[08:30] <froud> if that effort had been in svn we would have had a better one
[08:30] <froud> Burgundavia: then I drop the project
[08:30] <Burgundavia> Docbook sets the barrier too high, IMHO
[08:30] <froud> wiki is a mess
[08:30] <Burgundavia> wiki is a mess not because it is a wiki, but becuase the markup language sucks
[08:31] <froud> and you wantto move to something that sucks
[08:31] <froud> locked in 
[08:31] <Burgundavia> what do you mean?
[08:31] <froud> no easy port to different formats
[08:31] <froud> wiki sucks
[08:32] <froud> how do you plan to create html and xhtml and pdf and hml help from wiki
[08:32] <Burgundavia> no, wiki allows really fast editing, precisely what good documentation needs
[08:32] <froud> how do you plan to keep formatting consistant
[08:32] <froud> so does docbook
[08:32] <Burgundavia> html is easy, the wiki engine is already doing it, just take that output
[08:32] <froud> controlled in svn
[08:32] <froud> so why do most FOSS doc projects use docbook
[08:32] <Burgundavia> I think we have a fundamental misunderstanding here
[08:32] <froud> yes
[08:33] <froud> ubuntu docs and wiki are two different things
[08:33] <Burgundavia> WP is very very successful because they have set the bar for entry very low, but still produce quality docs
[08:33] <froud> who is WP
[08:33] <Burgundavia> Wikipedia
[08:33] <froud> oh crap
[08:34] <Burgundavia> ah, another person who thinks WP is crap
[08:34] <froud> look postyour thoughts to the list
[08:34] <Burgundavia> ok, I will compose something right now
[08:34] <froud> but if the project drop docbook I drop the project . period
[08:36] <Burgundavia> Who else uses docbook?
[08:36] <froud> TLDP KDE GNOME
[08:36] <froud> and many other projects
[08:37] <Burgundavia> and one of the most common things I have heard about computer documentation is that is sucks
[08:37] <Burgundavia> doesn't matter what project/os/etc.
[08:38] <froud> because you have developers writing it
[08:38] <froud> the format has nothing to do with the authors
[08:38] <Burgundavia> and the barrier to entry is set beyond the reach of most people
[08:38] <froud> most people dont write doc
[08:38] <froud> very few writers actually contribute
[08:39] <froud> so net admins and developers do it
[08:39] <froud> beeep wrong
[08:39] <Burgundavia> but the writers don't contribute, IMHO, because they can't just write, they have to deal with xml, etc.
[08:39] <froud> oss doc projects, with the exception of GNOME, dont have a doc manager
[08:40] <froud> Umm XXE is near to WYSIWYG as you can take it
[08:40] <Burgundavia> docbook != WYSIWYG
[08:40] <froud> have you seen XXE
[08:40] <Burgundavia> XMLmind XML Editor?
[08:40] <froud> there are numbe rof other structured editors
[08:40] <froud> Conglomerate is one
[08:41] <froud> Morphon another
[08:41] <Burgundavia> congolmerate is a mess, I have tried to use it
[08:41] <froud> yes it is a mess agreed
[08:41] <froud> they tried to be too much
[08:41] <froud> you donthav eto use vim or emacs
[08:41] <froud> XXE is also good
[08:42] <froud> the benefits of xml far out weigh not using it
[08:42] <froud> are you on our commit list
[08:43] <Burgundavia> not currently
[08:43] <froud> you should be
[08:44] <froud> because we use xml and svn we get updates of all patches submitted
[08:44] <froud> only the diff,
[08:44] <froud> makes knowing what changed nice and easy
[08:44] <Burgundavia> yes
[08:45] <froud> our src is revision controlled
[08:45] <froud> we can tag and branch
[08:45] <froud> we can do vendor drop
[08:45] <Burgundavia> I am somewhat familiar with these things
[08:45] <froud> well in the future
[08:46] <froud> dont get me wrong we dont discourage wiki. If people want to write something ten let them do it
[08:47] <froud> see https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamWork
[08:47] <froud> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ConvertWikiToDocbook
[08:47] <froud> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ConvertTroffToDocbook
[08:47] <froud> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WritingDocbookWithOpenOffice
[08:48] <froud> to date nobody has used any of these methods
[08:48] <Burgundavia> yes, because the ubuntu wiki has some very strange features, like page parenting
[08:48] <froud> so what about OOo
[08:49] <Burgundavia> never tried it myself
[08:49] <froud> I can convert from docbook to wiki 100%
[08:49] <Burgundavia> but OOo is not exactly the easiest to use either
[08:49] <froud> I cant do it 100% in the opposite direction
[08:49] <froud> Oh come on
[08:49] <froud> you say wiki is easier that OOo writer
[08:50] <froud> no ways ddude
[08:50] <Burgundavia> I have seen somebody work 3 hours to cleanup a document with a mix of manual and auto syling
[08:50] <Burgundavia> s/syling/styling
[08:51] <froud> yes, but the method we document solves that
[08:51] <froud> atleast with docbook styling is not an issue
[08:51] <froud> the doc is valid or it is not
[08:51] <froud> formatting is the job of the xsl
[08:52] <froud> The other day I took a gedit user who had no idea about svn and docbook and helped her to start writing.
[08:52] <froud> The result
[08:52] <froud> was a number of nice patches within a day
[08:53] <froud> enrico took the IRC conversation and made a cool doc out of it
[08:53] <froud> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepRepository
[08:54] <froud> if this person can do it then anyone can do it
[08:54] <froud> and that using gedit
[08:54] <Burgundavia> My question is, how long did you have to walk her through it?
[08:55] <froud> 30 mins
[08:55] <froud> jeffsch: helo dude
[08:55] <jeffsch> froud: hey man
[08:55] <froud> you just started with the project
[08:55] <froud> had you used docbok and svn before
[08:56] <froud> you have given us some great patches
[08:56] <Burgundavia> I had started in Mataro, but I haven't had internet for the past 2 months
[08:56] <jeffsch> I fooled around with xml a couple years ago
[08:56] <jeffsch> and cvs a little
[08:56] <froud> how hard did you find it to get started with the project
[08:56] <jeffsch> I knew the concepts, so not much to do to learn
[08:56] <froud> ok
[08:57] <jeffsch> the hardest part was finding the info on the wiki
[08:57] <jeffsch> it is spread all over the place
[08:57] <Burgundavia> froud and I were discussing furture directions
[08:57] <Burgundavia> wikis need not be hard to edit and disorganized\
[08:57] <jeffsch> I saw - i read the log first...
[08:57] <froud> and what is your thinking on help viewer tools
[08:58] <jeffsch> perhpas they *shold* be dead, but people still use them
[08:59] <froud> so in time they will be dead
[09:00] <froud> would you drop docbook in favour of wiki only
[09:00] <jeffsch> if we can get a handle on the wiki
[09:00] <Burgundavia> with the added caveat that we do some serious work on the wiki, code wise
[09:00] <jeffsch> it's a mess, but doesn't need to be
[09:00] <froud> jeffsch: and how would you get HML/XHMTL PDF and HTM Help
[09:01] <jeffsch> on the other hand, I like how docbook is single source
[09:01] <Burgundavia> I heard in Mataro the main reason we didn't go with mediawiki is that it is PHP, and Shuttleworh doesn't like it
[09:01] <Burgundavia> PHP that is
[09:01] <froud> who cares what Shuttleworth wants. this is a community project it is what thee community wants
[09:02] <Burgundavia> I believe we use zwiki, which is python based
[09:02] <Burgundavia> and ties into zope and plone
[09:03] <jeffsch> plone, right?
[09:03] <jeffsch> zoiks! i typing too slow... :(
[09:03] <Burgundavia> I like the consistent interface
[09:03] <froud> wiki and docbook are for different applications
[09:03] <Burgundavia> I just want watchlists
[09:04] <Burgundavia> and a proper history form
[09:04] <Burgundavia> move away from Camelcase
[09:04] <Burgundavia> get rid of page parenting
[09:04] <Burgundavia> categories
[09:05] <jeffsch> froud: I see how you are correct re: wiki and docbook for different applications
[09:06] <Burgundavia> but is there any technical reason why they need to be?
[09:08] <froud> single source
[09:08] <jeffsch> perhaps there is a social reason...
[09:08] <jeffsch> wiki seems more "free-for-all"
[09:08] <Burgundavia> Ok then, I challenge this:
[09:08] <Burgundavia> Stick with me for it all
[09:08] <Burgundavia> Wiki becomes primary source
[09:09] <Burgundavia> We drive pdf and docbook off it
[09:09] <Burgundavia> wiki = html
[09:09] <Burgundavia> what we would need would be watchlists (commit list) both web and email
[09:09] <Burgundavia> and maybe even rss
[09:09] <Burgundavia> and all the things I just mentioned about what is missing from our wiki above
[09:10] <Burgundavia> Wiki allows very low bar of entry
[09:10] <Burgundavia> But we can still control by disallowing anon access
[09:10] <Burgundavia> What do people think?
[09:10] <froud> how do you prose to drive docbook off wiki
[09:11] <Burgundavia> wiki --> html --> docbook
[09:11] <froud> no way
[09:11] <froud> and how to expect to get valid docbook
[09:11] <Burgundavia> then skip docbook
[09:11] <Burgundavia> html --> pdf
[09:11] <Burgundavia> use evince and all the stuff I talked about earilier
[09:11] <Burgundavia> s/earilier/earlier
[09:12] <Burgundavia> With wiki as primary source, we don't need docbook for anything. PDF covers print, etc.
[09:12] <froud> The Quick Guide, FAQ Guide, Admin Guide, Release Notes, About Ubuntu and User Guide will remain in docbook
[09:12] <froud> if they move to wiki, I move projects
[09:12] <Burgundavia> At our current point, we cannot do what I suggest
[09:12] <froud> what people want to do in wiki is up to them. I focus on the docs in SVN
[09:13] <Burgundavia> froud: But this is a community effort, as you said, and the team can move as the team decides
[09:13] <froud> I would rather have a core team of people who write docs in svn and docbook than have a mess in wiki
[09:14] <Burgundavia> But you wouldn't have a mess in the wiki, with the technical things I just mentioned added and fixed
[09:14] <Burgundavia> there is a reason most new wikis are mediawiki (the wiki engine that drives WP) and not zwiki
[09:15] <froud> you really believe that
[09:15] <Burgundavia> yes I do
[09:15] <Burgundavia> WP is not a mess
[09:15] <froud> Burgundavia: how long have yu been in the documentation business
[09:15] <Burgundavia> long enough to know that what we are doing now isn't really working
[09:16] <froud> then you should know that xml is the way to go
[09:16] <froud> not wiki
[09:16] <froud> if you can get wiki to edit xml I would be with you
[09:16] <Burgundavia> Why do you need xml?
[09:16] <froud> single source, valid docs
[09:16] <froud> the list goes on
[09:17] <Burgundavia> valid docs?
[09:18] <froud> you really dont have much undersatnding about xml
[09:18] <Burgundavia> yes, I understand xml/html validation
[09:18] <froud> so why do you ask
[09:19] <Burgundavia> if we eliminate xml, then we don't need to worry about validating xml
[09:19] <froud> and how do you prose to make markup consistant in wiki
[09:20] <Burgundavia> by choosing one style
[09:20] <Burgundavia> and then applying it
[09:20] <Burgundavia> the ubuntu wiki is the only wiki I have seen that allows people to choose their markup style
[09:21] <Burgundavia> rest/plain text/etc.
[09:21] <Burgundavia> Have you editing Wikipedia?
[09:21] <froud> and do you know how many people come to this list asking how to markup wiki
[09:21] <Burgundavia> yes, because we offer them several confusing choices in the wiki
[09:21] <Burgundavia> I would burn that away to one
[09:21] <froud> look WP is great, but it is a different thing when you are writing a user guide
[09:22] <Burgundavia> I am saying that it is not
[09:22] <froud> then ther eis the issue of using upstream content
[09:22] <froud> how can I resuse docbook xml content from upstream
[09:22] <Burgundavia> how much do we currently reuse?
[09:23] <froud> at present non, but that is because of a technical issue
[09:23] <Burgundavia> what issue>
[09:23] <froud> we want svn 1.1 or higher to do vendor drops and use symlinks
[09:23] <Burgundavia> ok, that one
[09:24] <Burgundavia> what exactly is a vendor drop?
[09:24] <froud> take a snap of gnome and have it in our reposs
[09:24] <froud> resuse content
[09:24] <froud> reuse
[09:24] <froud> if we make changes in the drop we push itupstream
[09:25] <Burgundavia> ok, have never heard the term but understand the idea
[09:25] <froud> for example if it would have been good to use content from gnome docs in quick guide
[09:26] <froud> Burgundavia: the point is that wiki locks us in to a what we can do. With docbook for the Ubuntu Documentation we are not
[09:26] <froud> we can programatically access our docs in wiki we cant
[09:26] <froud> today our status reports are autogenerates
[09:27] <Burgundavia> say again?
[09:27] <froud> http://people.ubuntu.com/~mako/docteam/status/qg-report.html
[09:28] <froud> that doc is generated
[09:29] <Burgundavia> And is there a technical reason that couldn't be generated from a wiki page?
[09:29] <froud> you have a way of marking status in wiki inside the document src
[09:29] <froud> in plone it can be done
[09:29] <froud> in fact in plone you have a full review cycle
[09:30] <froud> but plone is heavy
[09:30] <Burgundavia> then I state that the last statement was a red herring
[09:30] <Burgundavia> and docbook/yelp is not heavy?
[09:30] <froud> docbook and yelp are two sperate things
[09:31] <froud> docbook is a semantic markup
[09:31] <froud> yelp just reads that markup 
[09:31] <froud> plone is heavy on resources and server side
[09:31] <Burgundavia> I was talking about the packaging in docbook and reading in yelp, the whole process
[09:31] <froud> we run a make file
[09:32] <froud> all books are generated from source
[09:32] <froud> in what every format you want it
[09:32] <froud> you want a man page I give it to you
[09:32] <froud> you want a pdf I give that too
[09:32] <Burgundavia> again, is there a technical reason that couldn't be done from a wiki?
[09:32] <froud> you gonna devel it
[09:33] <froud> in docbook I alreadyhave it
[09:33] <froud> I just transform to what you want
[09:33] <froud> also for the translators
[09:33] <froud> docbook and po files works well
[09:34] <Burgundavia> I see at least 2 different programs for doing html to pdf
[09:34] <froud> gnome and kde both have tools for this
[09:34] <froud> no one source
[09:34] <froud> two xsl
[09:34] <froud> xml > xsl > html
[09:34] <froud> xml > xsl > xsl:fo > pdf or rtf or ps
[09:35] <froud> xml > xsl > htmlhelp
[09:35] <froud> xml > xsl > wiki
[09:35] <froud> xml > xsl > man
[09:35] <froud> xml > xsl > info
[09:35] <froud> xml > xsl > xhtml
[09:35] <froud> one src
[09:36] <froud> the xsl's are different
[09:36] <Burgundavia> Yes, that is great, but are you producing good documentation?
[09:36] <froud> so does gnome and kde
[09:36] <froud> with more team members we can
[09:37] <froud> the idea of good or bad docs has 0 to do with the technology
[09:37] <Burgundavia> But I am saying that more team members will not be added due to the mental cost of learning docbook, which most people have NO interest in doing
[09:37] <froud> the docbook community is large
[09:37] <froud> it is also an OASIS stsd
[09:37] <froud> std
[09:37] <Burgundavia> the user community is much much larger
[09:37] <froud> sure
[09:38] <froud> and hence we give ways for them to write
[09:38] <froud> but that does not mean ubuntu docs should be in wiki
[09:38] <Burgundavia> But there is a cost for filtering through the docteam, and that cost is time
[09:38] <froud> and how to package wiki in distro
[09:39] <Burgundavia> you package wiki in distro by exporting from the wiki into other formats
[09:39] <froud> really how many and how much must we develop to do  that
[09:40] <Burgundavia> what is time cost of that development vs doing the documentation with much fewer people?
[09:40] <froud> there is stuff that must be in wiki and stuff that must be in docbook
[09:40] <Burgundavia> but that violates the principle of single source, which we both happen to like
[09:41] <froud> the problem is that everyone is doing what they want and most people are not writing docs
[09:41] <Burgundavia> The wiki would also allow for quick entering of the howtos from the user forums
[09:41] <froud> we have methods to enable everyone to write
[09:41] <froud> sure
[09:41] <froud> that we do today
[09:42] <Burgundavia> But they need filters (people) which we don't have
[09:42] <froud> but a howto does not go into the docs
[09:42] <Burgundavia> yes it does
[09:42] <froud> not at present
[09:42] <Burgundavia> but it needs to, IMHO
[09:42] <Burgundavia> most people think in a task oriented way
[09:42] <Burgundavia> ie, I want to write a letter
[09:42] <froud> sure and howto's e.g those from TLDP are in Docbook
[09:43] <Burgundavia> not I want to use gedit
[09:43] <Burgundavia> TLDP - to hard to find, and to hard to search
[09:43] <Burgundavia> s/to/too
[09:43] <froud> the howto docs are mostly in docbook format
[09:44] <froud> not only those from tldp
[09:44] <froud> and lets sperate betwen presentation and a data layers
[09:44] <Burgundavia> so does css
[09:44] <froud> we still have css with docbook
[09:45] <froud> in fact the releas enotes use the wiki css
[09:45] <froud> slight modification
[09:45] <Burgundavia> My main thrust is that we should (might want to) rethink the entire documentation process
[09:45] <Burgundavia> We should focus on very task oriented docs
[09:45] <froud> rethinking is always good
[09:46] <Burgundavia> ie. "I want to send an email to aunt betty"
[09:46] <froud> The user guide and admin guide should be task orientated
[09:46] <froud> see FAQ Quide
[09:46] <froud> but task orientation is not always the best thing
[09:46] <Burgundavia> I brought this up earlier. Quick means fast. Fast means task oriented
[09:46] <froud> especially when you want to explain issues
[09:46] <Burgundavia> why do you say that?
[09:47] <Burgundavia> can you tell me an example?
[09:47] <froud> explain DHCP in task
[09:47] <froud> or DNS
[09:47] <Burgundavia> I can
[09:47] <froud> yeah
[09:47] <froud> do 1 2 3
[09:47] <Burgundavia> I want to have my machines get an address
[09:48] <froud> and the person has no clue what it is that way
[09:48] <Burgundavia> what do you mean?
[09:48] <froud> DNS needs install and config
[09:48] <froud> the person must know tcp/ip
[09:49] <Burgundavia> Ok, but the task oriented and the program oriented doc can point to the same place
[09:49] <froud> you see you have two levels task and not task
[09:49] <froud> task is good fo rsome audiences
[09:49] <froud> try reading the how to docs
[09:50] <Burgundavia> For a quick rundown on me go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Burgundavia
[09:50] <Burgundavia> task is good for most basic computer users
[09:50] <Burgundavia> ie: Ubuntu's target audience
[09:50] <froud> there are multiple audience
[09:51] <froud> users is one
[09:51] <Burgundavia> yes, but for the desktop target audience, it is users
[09:51] <froud> they need task
[09:51] <froud> yes
[09:51] <Burgundavia> there are far more users than sysadmins
[09:51] <froud> sure
[09:51] <Burgundavia> There are also very good linux sysadmin guides out there
[09:51] <froud> does that mean a Admin Guide must be task
[09:52] <froud> yes
[09:52] <Burgundavia> there aren't very many good task oriented docs out there
[09:52] <froud> no
[09:52] <Burgundavia> the precise kind that do well in wiki's, as they can change rapidly
[09:52] <froud> why are you frowning on that page
[09:52] <Burgundavia> I was making a face for the camera
[09:52] <froud> :-)
[09:53] <froud> and you gave grown big dark patches around the ears :)
[09:53] <Burgundavia>  I am in a small plane
[09:53] <froud> Ah ha
[09:54] <froud> I agree that user docs should be task orientated, but we have not yet gotten to the user guide
[09:54] <Burgundavia> People are already writing the task based stuff in the forums, and they are crap
[09:54] <froud> the quick guide is like a tour of the desktop
[09:54] <Burgundavia> we can do much better
[09:54] <froud> yes writing task needs special skills
[09:54] <Burgundavia> however, there will always be another one that we need to write quickly
[09:54] <froud> most oss writers donthav ethem
[09:55] <froud> task needs planning
[09:55] <Burgundavia> docbook/svn doesn't really allow it to be done easily and released quickly
[09:55] <froud> yes it does
[09:55] <Burgundavia> to the stable release?
[09:55] <froud> we even have an element task
[09:55] <Burgundavia> element task?


[09:56] <froud> I write task orientated docs often
[09:56] <Burgundavia> oh
[09:56] <froud> hold with me on this
[09:56] <froud> I write a doc
[09:56] <froud> It supports both structures
[09:57] <Burgundavia> But what I want is to take all those Howtos and rewrite them in the wiki and then tell the forum about it
[09:57] <froud> I transform to target formats form one doc
[09:57] <Burgundavia> I want them to be webbased, so I can revise them
[09:57] <froud> you can revise them in docbook
[09:57] <Burgundavia> Currently users are getting advice like install xmms, which is a pile of crap
[09:58] <froud> well that is because noone can check the wiki
[09:58] <froud> its too big
[09:58] <Burgundavia> No, it is not too big, merely the tools we have to edit it suck
[09:58] <froud> our docs are focused
[09:58] <Burgundavia> No categories, watchlists, etc.
[09:58] <froud> I cant change that
[09:58] <Burgundavia> nor can I really
[09:58] <froud> I can only do what I do in the src
[09:59] <froud> in svn we have a controlled env
[09:59] <froud> it may not be open to all
[09:59] <froud> but it works
[09:59] <Burgundavia> in a wiki you have one too
[09:59] <Burgundavia> that is what history is for
[09:59] <Burgundavia> a real history, not this crap the Ubuntu wiki has
[09:59] <froud> well you will have to get lots of people to support you
[10:00] <Burgundavia> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Detroit_Metropolitan_Wayne_County_Airport&action=history
[10:00] <Burgundavia> this kind of history
[10:00] <froud> yes now revert 
[10:00] <froud> merge
[10:00] <froud> switch
[10:01] <froud> at endour dev we will tag
[10:01] <Burgundavia> "at endour dev we will tag" ????
[10:01] <froud> the hoary docs stay like they are forever
[10:01] <froud> we tag at code freeze
[10:01] <froud> the trunk is moved into tag
[10:01] <froud> you cant edit it
[10:02] <froud> we can build from it
[10:02] <froud> we continue to dev in trunk
[10:02] <Burgundavia> export a copy out and do the same thing
[10:02] <froud> in addition, if I want to make intrusive changes I can branch
[10:02] <froud> make changes and merge back to trunk
[10:02] <froud> why do I want to do that I do that only at build
[10:03] <froud> we all collab on the svn
[10:03] <froud> the same way the coders do
[10:03] <Burgundavia> Documentation != code and never should
[10:03] <froud> in svn the build can always be accesses
[10:03] <Burgundavia> that is why most foss documentation sucks
[10:04] <Burgundavia> the same way the coders do - this is exactly the statement that I cringe at
[10:04] <froud> no, it sucks because the people writing are not technical writers
[10:04] <froud> I run customer projects in docbook
[10:04] <froud> I have over 2 tera of documents
[10:04] <froud> and it works in perfect order
[10:05] <Burgundavia> do you write the stuff by yourself?
[10:05] <froud> with teams that are geographically everywhere
[10:05] <froud> no
[10:05] <froud> some by me
[10:05] <froud> some by other technical writers
[10:05] <Burgundavia> are you trying to lower bar to allow more people to write?
[10:05] <froud> the devs also write in the same way
[10:06] <froud> as do the testers
[10:06] <froud> and project management
[10:06] <froud> most stuff is dynamically transformed under tomcat
[10:06] <froud> some stuff is on a cron job
[10:07] <froud> releases are specific and yet we preserve the old release docs
[10:07] <Burgundavia> Here is something common I have/can see happen: What can I do. Write docs. How to do I do that? Learn svn and docbook (or something else). No thanks
[10:07] <froud> so you will see docs for each version over time
[10:07] <jeffsch> you don't have to learn all of docbook to contribute
[10:07] <Burgundavia> Why are we so concerned about freezing the docs aside for translators?
[10:07] <froud> Docbook and svn are not that hard
[10:08] <Burgundavia> harder than a wiki
[10:08] <froud> no
[10:08] <Burgundavia> yes
[10:08] <froud> Burgundavia: you you run a gnome desk
[10:08] <Burgundavia> "you you run a gnome desk" ???
[10:08] <froud> do you
[10:08] <froud> my bad
[10:08] <Burgundavia> do I use Ubuntu at home?
[10:09] <Burgundavia> yes, exclusively
[10:09] <froud> ok
[10:09] <Burgundavia> I just left my job, which was with windows
[10:09] <froud> so install eSvn
[10:09] <froud> once you have svn installed eSvn will give you a gui
[10:09] <froud> frontend to svn
[10:10] <froud> that will take care of learning svn 
[10:10] <froud> now you take XXE and you write
[10:10] <Burgundavia> not really
[10:10] <froud> that's it
[10:10] <Burgundavia> you still have to learn the concepts
[10:10] <Burgundavia> that is difficult thing for most people
[10:10] <froud> eSvn is so simple
[10:10] <froud> not really
[10:10] <froud> they use only a few functions
[10:10] <froud> update
[10:10] <Burgundavia> menu items with 11 items are not simple
[10:10] <froud> mostly
[10:11] <froud> push the updat ebutton on theeeee toolbar
[10:11] <froud> I must step out for a minute
[10:12] <jeffsch> Burgundavia: you are in Victoria? I'm in vancouver
[10:12] <Burgundavia> yep
[10:12] <Burgundavia> crazy
[10:13] <Burgundavia> the debian release people are meeting in Vancouver this weekend
[10:13] <Burgundavia> http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2005/03/msg00015.html
[10:13] <jeffsch> i didn't know that
[10:14] <Burgundavia> ya, but they don't say where
[10:15] <Burgundavia> You have been following our discussion jeff?
[10:15] <Kinnison> Morning
[10:15] <Burgundavia> hey
[10:15] <jeffsch> Burgundavia: yes
[10:15] <jeffsch> want my two cents?
[10:15] <Burgundavia> Kinnison: read the logs for this channel and tell me if I am completely off my rocker
[10:15] <Burgundavia> yes
[10:16] <Burgundavia> jeffsch: yes
[10:16] <jeffsch> wikipedia is wiki, and ubuntu wiki is a wiki, but you can't compare wikipedia to ubuntu wiki
[10:16] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: I'm about to upgrade my router; can I do that when I get back?
[10:16] <jeffsch> ikipedia has different purpose than ubuntu wiki
[10:16] <Burgundavia> Kinnison: whenever
[10:16] <jeffsch> ubuntu wiki page needs to change everytime software it covers changes
[10:16] <jeffsch> wikipedia page tends to be static after first few changes
[10:16] <jeffsch> I love wikipedia - if i want to know about einstein, there's the info
[10:17] <jeffsch> i can get lost in WP for hours
[10:17] <jeffsch> but for info on how to use a program, i want it fast
[10:17] <jeffsch> I don't have time to wander around. my network may be down.
[10:17] <jeffsch> the info needs to be organized, it needs to be structured.
[10:17] <jeffsch> xml, semantic markup. Docbook
[10:18] <Burgundavia> is there any technical reason that a wiki could not also do those things?
[10:19] <jeffsch> in theory, probably not.
[10:19] <Burgundavia> The major technical challenge I see that I cannot easily solve is tranlating, and keeping that in sync
[10:20] <jeffsch> but there are other reasons. not just technical ones
[10:20] <jeffsch> people are people, if you know what i mean
[10:20] <Burgundavia> froud was already talking about XUL and browser based stuff anyway
[10:20] <Burgundavia> I totally understand the non-technical stuff. I have lurked on the list for the last few months
[10:21] <Burgundavia> There are also some serious technical challenges that froud presented
[10:21] <jeffsch> i can see how someone might be afraid of changing wiki - it's very public
[10:22] <Burgundavia> WP is also getting more organized. The issue with Mediawiki is that they must deal with all the scaling issues that WP is having
[10:22] <jeffsch> shy people may find it  a greater barrier than xml on svn
[10:22] <Burgundavia> hmm
[10:23] <Burgundavia> I have never heard of that, but it may happen
[10:23] <jeffsch> i don't think WP is a good model for ubuntu wiki - they both use same technology (essentially)
[10:23] <jeffsch> but they each serve different purposes
[10:23] <Burgundavia> they both use the same concepts, very different underpinnings
[10:23] <Burgundavia> WP has pushed the wiki concept in a lot of very interesting directions
[10:24] <Burgundavia> encyclopedia and docs in general have to solve the same set of issues
[10:24] <Burgundavia> it is primarily cateogorizing info so that people can get to it quickly and easily
[10:25] <jeffsch> they are used at different times by different people for different reasons
[10:25] <Burgundavia> the wiki concept allows quick changing of that
[10:25] <Burgundavia> the era of static docs is dead
[10:25] <Burgundavia> they need to die like the help viewer
[10:26] <Kinnison> Morning again all
[10:26] <Burgundavia> long time, no chat
[10:26] <Burgundavia> how is my favourite gay Englishman?
[10:27] <Kinnison> Gosh; such honour
[10:27] <Burgundavia> well, I am still available to be the cameraman
[10:27] <Kinnison> How's your girl?
[10:27] <Kinnison> (I can't remember her name because I'm crap)
[10:27] <Burgundavia> We broke up 2 days after I got back, but I only moved out 2 days ago
[10:27] <Burgundavia> We are still good friends
[10:28] <Burgundavia> Kinnison: can you tell me why cupsys-driver-gimpprint is broken? Is this an issue larger than just me?
[10:29] <Burgundavia> hmm
[10:29] <Kinnison> I'm not on the distro team remember :-)
[10:29] <Burgundavia> ya ya
[10:29] <Burgundavia> how was capetown
[10:29] <Kinnison> Warm
[10:30] <Kinnison> It's not so much a party as a very very very serious and scary meeting
[10:30] <Burgundavia> but then there will be much drinking. I want to in on that
[10:36] <Burgundavia> boy, did I kill the conversation or what
[10:36] <Burgundavia> anyway, back to docteam stuff
[10:36] <Kinnison> You're unemployed too?
[10:37] <Burgundavia> voluntarliy unemployed
[10:37] <Burgundavia> I quit
[10:37] <Burgundavia> I hate windoze
[10:37] <Burgundavia> and helpdesking said os
[10:37] <Kinnison> I see
[10:38] <Burgundavia> to install corel draw 10 as non-admin user
[10:38] <Burgundavia> 1.5 hours
[10:38] <Kinnison> yeesh
[10:38] <Burgundavia> 2 registry key permissions
[10:38] <Burgundavia> 2 folder permissions
[10:38] <Burgundavia> 2 service pakcs
[10:38] <Burgundavia> must be done before program is ever run
[10:38] <Burgundavia> which meant I had to reinstall
[10:39] <Burgundavia> apt-get intall corel-draw-10 didn't work for some reason
[10:39] <Burgundavia> I was most annoyed
[10:39] <Kinnison> I'll go over the scrollback in a sec
[10:40] <Burgundavia> oh, the best part, before I discovered this fix, the error is merely a blank error box with a red x in it
[10:40] <Burgundavia> all this for one user
[10:47] <froud> btw you are not off your rocker
[10:48] <froud> there is much merit in what you are saying
[10:48] <froud> in an ideal world
[10:49] <Burgundavia> dammit, I want my ideal world now
[10:49] <froud> :-) speak to santa
[10:50] <Burgundavia> right
[10:50] <froud> is there anything else you wanna cover, I need to get back to doing some work
[10:50] <Burgundavia> no, I was just hashing stuff out. I will write something to the list and we can all chop it apart
[10:50] <froud> ok
[10:51] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: you look fairly sane to me
[10:51] <froud> hello Kinnison 
[10:51] <Kinnison> hi froud
[10:52] <froud> I gave you a hug the other day under the pretence you were a Linux chic now I find out differently :-)
[10:52] <Kinnison> and I am
[10:52] <Kinnison> dsilvers@petitemort:~$ dict chic | grep adj
[10:52] <Kinnison>        adj : elegant and stylish; "chic elegance"; "a smart new dress";
[10:52] <Kinnison> I didn't at any time claim to be a girl
[10:52] <froud> so why does Burgundavia refer to you as an mad gay Englishman
[10:53] <Burgundavia> damn, I wish I had my pictures online
[10:53] <Kinnison> froud: because I am ?
[10:53] <Burgundavia> then I could show froud the real thing
[10:53] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: Yeah well; we have our pitiful snow
[10:53] <froud> oh dear
[10:53] <froud> I must realy be more careful who I hug :)
[10:54] <Burgundavia> ugh, white stuff
[10:54] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: it's not *real* snow by canadian standards; but it's what we have :-)
[10:54] <Burgundavia> still too much white stuff for me
[10:55] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: it's actually quite warm still
[10:55] <froud> 29deg in Johannesburg
[10:56] <froud> sun and blue sky
[10:56] <Burgundavia> joburg != england
[10:56] <froud> working in shorts with door wide open
[10:56] <froud> I know I lived in London for 4 years
[10:56] <Burgundavia> When I flew into London after Spain it was very depressing
[10:57] <Kinnison> froud: I was in CT at the start of Feb. I was too hot
[10:57] <froud> :-)
[10:57] <Burgundavia> the english had not one, but 2 layers of overcast
[10:57] <froud> for an Englishman yes
[10:57] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: Just to make sure :-)
[10:57] <Burgundavia> yes
[10:57] <froud> I just got back from CT
[10:57] <Burgundavia> wouldn
[10:57] <Burgundavia> want any sun getting through
[10:57] <Burgundavia> its bad for you, y'know
[10:57] <froud> we had great weather
[10:58] <froud> and some rain to cool it down
[10:58] <Burgundavia> currently sunny and about 10 here
[10:58] <Kinnison> http://www.geekhouse.no/Albums/fosdem2005/p2260028.sized.jpg
[10:58] <Kinnison> And the moral of the story is... When Kinni get drunk; his friends do too
[10:58] <froud> ah african weather is great
[10:59] <Burgundavia> dammit, I need to move to Europe
[10:59] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: yay
[10:59] <Kinnison> come to the dour overcastness
[10:59] <Burgundavia> west coast is where the devs come to have "serious and scary" meetings
[10:59] <Kinnison> Cambridge is where they come to get pished
[10:59] <Burgundavia> Kinnison: I was thinking southern spain
[10:59] <Burgundavia> or france
[10:59] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: Andalucia is gorgeous
[10:59] <Burgundavia> and linux mad
[11:00] <froud> people, see ya
[11:00] <froud> I is off
[11:00] <Burgundavia> http://old.hispalinux.es/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=188&mode=&order=0
[11:01] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: yep; cool isn't it?
[11:02] <Burgundavia> BC Gov has standardized on AD and Win2k3
[11:02] <Burgundavia> ugh
[11:02] <Burgundavia> and Exchange
[11:02] <Burgundavia> they also have consolidated all the ministries IT staff to one ministry
[11:07] <Burgundavia> Kinnison: anyone seen plovs around recently?
[11:08] <Kinnison> lovely sleep
[11:09] <Burgundavia> is 2am here
[12:17] <froud> enrico: hi
[12:17] <enrico> Hi froud!
[12:17] <enrico> I still haven't posted about my conversation with mdz
[12:17] <enrico> I'll make a couple phone calls and I'll be on it
[12:20] <froud> I read it on the channel
[12:20] <froud> devel
[12:21] <Burgundavia> hey
[12:22] <froud> ho
[12:23] <Burgundavia> see the post to the list?
[12:24] <froud> here is something different
[12:24] <froud> "When you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic Voices...
[12:24] <froud> thats nothing - when you play it forward it installs Windows"
[12:24] <froud> Burgundavia: yes
[12:24] <Burgundavia> where is that from?
[12:26] <froud> gauteng linux user group mailing list
[12:26] <froud> any Solaris fans here http://madpenguin.org/cms/?m=show&id=3542
[12:27] <Burgundavia> Please continue reading after you have stopped laughing. - I like that line
[12:27] <Burgundavia> I am skeptical
[12:29] <froud> I'm not but you must read the fine print in the license VERY CAREFULLY
[12:29] <enrico> Burgundavia: hello!  How are you doing?
[12:29] <froud> you've been warned
[12:29] <Burgundavia> enrico: good. I haven't had internet in 2 months
[12:29] <Burgundavia> it sucked
[12:30] <froud> I will die without Internet for 1 day
[12:30] <Burgundavia> i barely survived
[12:30] <froud> everytime I go on holiday the Internet comes with me
[12:32] <froud> XML manifests. This is where things get different. Every service has an XML file that holds information about the service. What other services does it depend on? What services does it not depend on, but are recommended? All these relationships and more are stored in the manifests.
[12:32] <froud> SMF
[12:32] <froud> cool
[12:38] <froud> Burgundavia: can we expect a patch from you today
[12:41] <Burgundavia> what I did completely borked, so I have to work on it some more
[12:41] <Burgundavia> it is also 4am here
[12:42] <Burgundavia> expect it by today later ~ 12 hours
[12:46] <enrico> lunch
[12:48] <Burgundavia> all right, night/morning all
[05:06] <froud> enrico: 
[05:16] <froud> enrico: what is the mailman url for subscription management to comit list? I cant find it in wiki
[05:19] <enrico> froud: lists.ubuntu.com has an index.  Let's see...
[05:19] <enrico> http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc-commits
[05:19] <froud> thanks
[05:20] <enrico> np
[05:22] <froud> enrico: just wanted to update https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ForTheHasty
[05:22] <enrico> froud: great!
[06:19] <froud> enrico: why is there the option for this computer only on the screen resolution interface
[06:19] <froud> system > preferences
[06:22] <enrico> Don't know.  My Virtual Hoary is still updating, so I can't even check :-(
[06:22] <enrico> Could it be because of things like XDMCMP and remove tessions?
[06:23] <froud> dunno but typical user has no use for it
[06:23] <froud> admin could
[06:23] <enrico> s/remove/remote/
[06:55] <froud> enrico: how do I configure the bittorrent thing
[06:56] <froud> it wants a mata file
[06:56] <froud> meta
[06:56] <froud> where can I find a meta file for bittorrent
[07:01] <enrico> froud: never used the bt thing
[07:02] <froud> me neither hence I ask
[07:19] <froud> enrico: I just ran a build of ubuntu-docs local and installed and they dont show in yelp other
[07:43] <froud> enrico: ok ignore that last message I acidently screwed my scrollkeeper system
[07:43] <froud> now it is fix and the ubuntu-docs show
[07:45] <enrico> froud: on,nice!
[07:45] <froud> yeah panic set in for aminute
[07:45] <froud> then I realized what I had done
[07:46] <froud> got my omf databases mixed up
[07:46] <froud> sorry for the false alarm
[07:47] <froud> enrico: next release I can going to use the xsl's from either GNOME or TLDP to automatically make the OMF files
[07:47] <enrico> Automatically from what?
[07:48] <froud> from the docbook
[07:48] <enrico> Oh.  That'd be cute!
[07:49] <froud> I did not spend much time looking at OMF until now and I see xsl's from gnome and tldp can do this for us. with a few changes for ourselves
[07:49] <froud> that way the omf files are automade during our build
[07:49] <enrico> That'd avoid some dangerous duplication of text
[07:49] <froud> no need to hav ethem in svn
[07:49] <froud> they will be create din the build dir
[07:50] <froud> but boy what a song and dance to get things in OMF and yelp
[07:50] <froud> mission stuff, for something so simple
[08:04] <enrico> froud: I agree.  I think it's so because noone ever cared about the output
[08:04] <enrico> developer-side, it's a fire-and-forget: you drop a OMF file there, and it'll show up somewhere
[10:03] <sm> hey all
[10:04] <sm> the ubuntu site's  code style has an unreadable red background, see eg http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WikiTips
[10:04] <sm> I'd like to make it lighter.. this will affect the whole site
[10:05] <sm> shouldn't cause problems, right ?
[10:05] <enrico> sm looking...
[10:06] <enrico> BLEAH!
[10:06] <enrico> yes, please, do change it!
[10:06] <enrico> sm: thanks!!
[10:06] <abelli> ciao a tutti
[10:15] <sm> thx enrico.. changed now, better suggestions welcome
[10:37] <abelli> enrico: thank you for the warm welcome. ;)
[10:38] <enrico> abelli: I'm fairly busy
[10:39] <abelli> enrico: i understand magister, sorry if i doubted of her ;)
[11:18] <enrico> I can't convince hoary's gdm to display the date in the bottom-right in English :(
[11:19] <Burgundavia> hmm
[11:20] <abelli> maybe it's french.. 
[11:20] <Burgundavia> did you see the debate that froud and I had?
[11:21] <enrico> yes... but I'm just postpoining thinking about it until the docteam meeting
[11:23] <Burgundavia> ok