[06:20] <froud> African greetings
[06:20] <froud> jeffsch: yes I will need an editor after the developers have done a technical review
[06:33] <jeffsch> How big is the manual?
[07:34] <froud> jeffsch: 799 lines of XML :-)
[07:34] <froud> Hello Liz
[07:36] <Liz> hii..
[07:36] <Liz> and ok
[07:44] <jeffsch> froud: hmmm... if i print it out real small, 80 lines per page, that's only 10 pages!
[07:44] <jeffsch> I can do that.
[07:45] <jeffsch> hello Liz
[07:45] <jeffsch> do you know how i can convert docbook to pdf?
[07:46] <Liz> hi jeffsch..no idea im sorry
[07:46] <Liz> never had to do that
[07:46] <Liz> doesnt help that i cant see docbook neway
[07:46] <Liz> it wont open in my browser
[07:47] <jeffsch> use yelp
[07:47] <Liz> i dont think i have yelp
[07:48] <jeffsch> if you have ubuntu and are using gnome desktop, you have yelp
[07:48] <Liz> oh..there it is
[07:48] <Liz> yes i have it..its open
[07:53] <Liz> now that i can see it..it looks really good
[07:58] <froud> jeffsch: yes
[07:58] <froud> you need to transform to xsl:fo using the fo stylesheets
[07:58] <jeffsch> it's fop that i need after that, right?
[07:58] <froud> then run the xsl:fo file through a formatting object processor like fop
[07:59] <froud> yes
[07:59] <jeffsch> how to find fop? which repository?
[07:59] <froud> fop is at apache.org
[08:00] <froud> I assume you already have either Saxon or Xalan/Xerces installed
[08:00] <froud> no it's ok you hav exsltproc
[08:00] <froud> xsltproc
[08:01] <jeffsch> yes, i can do xml to fo with xsltproc
[08:01] <froud> you should not that xsltproc does not support the docbook extensions
[08:01] <jeffsch> so what is the best way to do it?
[08:06] <froud> using saxon
[08:07] <froud> the docbook extensions are not required
[08:07] <froud> but if you want to use them then you need one ofthe java xslt processors
[08:08] <froud> for example if you are using fop you will want to us ethe fop extensions
[08:08] <jeffsch> I'm looking at http://xml.apache.org/fop/running.html and it seems everything I need is in the one download
[08:08] <jeffsch> except for java of course
[08:11] <jeffsch> what's a good directory to install it in?
[08:12] <froud> jeffsch: you can put it anywhere. JUst export the path to your env
[08:14] <froud> jeffsch: normall installe din /user/share/java/
[08:20] <Liz> i use bittorrent
[08:20] <Liz> but i never could get gnomes one to work
[08:26] <froud> jeffsch: if you are on the command line just use tar and gzip
[08:26] <jeffsch> yes.... but I really wanted to try file roller... :(
[08:27] <froud> if you want to run the GUI do file-roller
[08:27] <froud> on ubuntu file-roller is called Archive Manager
[08:28] <jeffsch> hmmm... a general question... how does one find out the name of an app on a gui menu?
[09:13] <Liz> i gotta go
[09:13] <Liz> see you all later
[09:35] <froud> jeffsch: take a look in Synaptic
[09:42] <jeffsch> I've got fop installed and ready to go, I'm still figuring out the entire process...
[10:36] <jeffsch> froud: fop is throwing out of memory exception. I try to fix tomorrow. time for sleep
[10:36] <jeffsch> see ya
[10:38] <froud> jeffsch: ok
[07:27] <enrico> Hooray for froud!!
[07:27] <froud> and it went out on all the pr channels
[07:27] <enrico> "noted technical author and information architect" !
[07:28] <froud> after nearly a year writing its about time
[07:30] <froud> pretty cool book though
[07:30] <froud> even if I say so myself
[07:31] <enrico> :)
[07:32] <froud> enrico: do you know if anyone is taking on that bug I listed about yelp
[07:37] <enrico> no, I don't
[07:37] <enrico> But I'll try to keep an eye
[07:39] <froud> Oh well, gave mvo update-manager manual today
[07:40] <enrico> coolness!
[07:40] <enrico> going for dinner
[07:43] <enrico> I can't say "trust me, we committed to transparency" :)
[07:43] <enrico> sorry, this was for another channel
[08:55] <mdke> hi there, anyone home for a chat? i wanted to talk about ubuntu documentation
[08:57] <mdke> afaics the documentation online is very higgedy piggeldy and the local docs are not much better, and I wondered if there is any initiative in motion or pending to set this right?
[09:01] <mdke> anyway lemme know if someone reads my message, i would be interested in discussing it and happy to do anything i can to help out
[09:04] <enrico> Hey there!
[09:04] <enrico> Welcome mdke!
[09:06] <mdke> hi enrico
[09:06] <enrico> We mainly focused on making books, yes
[09:06] <enrico> those things at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects
[09:06] <mdke> hmm
[09:06] <enrico> but the website is definitely lacking
[09:07] <mdke> i tell ya what bothers me
[09:07] <mdke> there are loads of docs 
[09:07] <mdke> but they are all in different places
[09:07] <enrico> Oh, yes
[09:07] <mdke> there is a wiki, a wiki faq, an ubuntu faq, an ubuntu howto list etc etc
[09:07] <mdke> and its impossible to search them
[09:08] <mdke> i was looking for some simple information just now and it took me ages to fail to find it ;)
[09:10] <enrico> The current plone sucks
[09:10] <enrico> we're all waiting for a redesign
[09:10] <enrico> And someone actively hacking on the website
[09:10] <mdke> yeah i appreciate that
[09:10] <mdke> but the problem for me is not the design, its the structure
[09:11] <enrico> what do you mean?
[09:12] <mdke> what i said before about all the docs being in different places
[09:12] <mdke> imo the website needs a simpler structure for the help docs
[09:12] <mdke> combine the faq, the wiki faq, the wiki howtos, the ubuntu howtos, the ubuntuguide etc etc and have them in the same place
[09:12] <enrico> The difference between the website and the wiki is that the website would list "official" informations, while the wiki is free for everyone to edit
[09:13] <mdke> sure
[09:13] <mdke> i think in an ideal world the wiki would not have docs in
[09:13] <mdke> just brainstorming
[09:13] <mdke> but that will take a lot of time
[09:13] <mdke> hmm
[09:14] <mdke> enrico, have you seen how the docs for gentoo are organised?
[09:15] <mdke> http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/list.xml
[09:18] <enrico> that's quite a long list
[09:18] <mdke> yeah but its all in one place
[09:18] <mdke> hmmm
[09:18] <mdke> maybe i'm talking rubbish
[09:20] <mdke> i guess what I am asking for is for an integration of ubuntuguide and the wiki with the official "support" section of the website, but maybe its not feasible
[09:22] <enrico> the other thing is that the ubuntuguide is far from being completed
[09:23] <mdke> ah
[09:23] <mdke> right fair enough
[09:23] <enrico> (and plone wouldn's support documents on multiple files, so putting it in there would be hard)
[09:23] <enrico> that's why the quickguide is not there either
[09:23] <mdke> is the quickguide different to ubuntuguide?
[09:23] <mdke> gosh
[09:23] <enrico> But I think a wishlist for the website would be very needed
[09:24] <mdke> hmm
[09:24] <mdke> i'll subscribe to your list
[09:24] <enrico> quickguide: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mako/docteam/quickguide/
[09:24] <mdke> btw sei italiano?
[09:24] <enrico> mdke: si si!
[09:24] <mdke> :)
[09:24] <mdke> io no
[09:24] <enrico> The quickguide is quite cool
[09:24] <mdke> but i speak italian
[09:24] <enrico> ma lo parli
[09:24] <mdke> :)
[09:25] <mdke> si l'ho imparato
[09:25] <mdke> mi piace molto l'italia
[09:26] <mdke> i'll check out the quickguide
[09:26] <enrico> it's an introduction to things, not really a user guide
[09:27] <mdke> where is it found locally?
[09:27] <mdke> nm found it
[09:27] <mdke> heh
[09:28] <mdke> the ubuntu related guides could have their own section in the Help Topics
[09:29] <enrico> the QG is just an introduction, but I wish every system had one like that
[09:29] <mdke> they look out of place alongside the "GNU time command"
[09:29] <enrico> It's quite cute to get you started
[09:29] <mdke> hmm
[09:29] <enrico> oh, yes: we're trying to fix yelp cathegories
[09:29] <mako> mdke: hola!
[09:29] <mdke> hi mako
[09:29] <mdke> pleased to meet ya
[09:29] <mako> mdke: so i hear you want to help with the website :) 
[09:29] <mdke> i would like to
[09:30] <mako> i would like you to!
[09:30] <mdke> i'm reading
[09:30] <mdke> i don't know docbook
[09:30] <mako> so what you should know is that (a) most stuff is in the wiki of which anyone can just edit
[09:30] <mdke> yes
[09:30] <mako> and (b) most of the stuff that is in the website proper, anyone can edit
[09:30] <mdke> ah
[09:31] <mako> ther are only a dozen pages or so that are locked
[09:31] <mako> things like the front page, the governnace pages, the code of conduct
[09:31] <mdke> i was thinking that the website proper "support" section could do with having more stuff in it. the wiki is not the most desirable place
[09:31] <mako> totally
[09:31] <mdke> hmm
[09:31] <mako> our thought was that as things get "stable" in the wiki, stuff can be moved over
[09:31] <mdke> is there a policy on what can go in the support section?
[09:32] <mako> so if there are excellent high quality pages in the wiki that haven't changed in a long time, you can move them over
[09:32] <mako> mdke: umm. high quality and stable are the two major criteria for inclusion i think.. and correct
[09:32] <mdke> i tell you what is really needed: the RestrictedFormats stuff. But problem is that the wiki is really bad
[09:33] <mako> ok, so in that case, the work to improve it should be done in the wiki and then, when it's high quality and stable, it can be moved over :)
[09:33] <mdke> hmm
[09:33] <mdke> the problem with that is that the wiki grows rather than develops
[09:33] <mdke> people don't want to just scrap the previous stuff, so they add things, instead of replacing them with clearer things
[09:33] <mako> yes, i've seen that
[09:34] <mdke> its the nature of a wiki
[09:34] <mako> the only solution is for someone to take on an editorial role and edit
[09:34] <mdke> that might be a good solution
[09:34] <mdke> how do they do it on wikipedia? ;p
[09:34] <mako> editorial collectives
[09:34] <mako> or committees
[09:34] <mako> or whatever they call them
[09:34] <mako> editors
[09:35] <mdke> well i am happy to try and work privately on some editing, and then submit them to someone with power for approval.
[09:35] <mdke> but only if you want
[09:36] <mako> we have full version control. go ahead and make the changes. they can always be reverted
[09:36] <mdke> oh i c
[09:36] <mako> if you are unsure, make the changes and then point them out to this channel or to me
[09:36] <mako> or to #ubuntu-devel
[09:36] <mdke> i would be nervous about rewriting the RestrictedFormats wiki
[09:36] <mako> to ask for a second opinion
[09:36] <mdke> and changing it without approval
[09:36] <mako> it can always be reverted
[09:36] <mdke> i don't want to get lynched ;)
[09:36] <mdke> ok
[09:37] <mdke> then maybe i will give it a go
[09:37] <mako> reorganization is fine
[09:37] <mako> wiki's need gardening
[09:37] <mako> gardeners even
[09:37] <mdke> if i do something, i'll come and discuss in here or on the list
[09:37] <arsre> hello
[09:37] <mdke> mako, btw was that your unhappy birthday site i saw the other day?
[09:37] <mdke> hi arsre 
[09:37] <arsre> can any body help me 
[09:38] <mako> mdke: yes, that was mine
[09:38] <mdke> mako, heh that was great
[09:38] <arsre> about ubuntu
[09:38] <arsre> graphichs
[09:38] <mako> arsre: perhaps
[09:38] <mako> arsre: whatcha need?
[09:38] <mdke> lol
[09:38] <mdke> enrico, di dove sei?
[09:38] <enrico> mdke: di Bologna
[09:38] <mdke> che bello
[09:38] <arsre> i my resoluton and graphics are poor
[09:38] <arsre> cant reed what is happing on screen
[09:39] <mdke> arsre, you need to ask in #ubuntu, they will be better placed to help
[09:39] <mdke> arsre, there is more of them too
[09:39] <mdke> (or do you guys do support in here?)
[09:39] <arsre> ok thanx
[09:40] <enrico> mdke: how about you?
[09:40] <mdke> enrico, london, UK
[09:40] <mdke> enrico, i spent last year in firenze
[09:40] <enrico> mdke: not much support here, unless to people writing docs
[09:40] <mdke> k
[09:40] <mdke> enrico, and one year in siena a few years ago
[09:41] <enrico> mdke: wow.  You got fluent in tuscanian vernacular as well :)
[09:41] <mdke> per fortuna no
[09:41] <mdke> ho incontrato una ragazza calabrese...
[09:42] <enrico> WOW
[09:42] <mdke> but i haven't learnt calabrian yet ;)
[09:42] <enrico> Did she teach you Pizzica?
[09:42] <mdke> hmm
[09:42] <mdke> spicy?
[09:43] <mdke> her sister married a guy and they lived near bologna for a while 
[09:44] <mdke> in grizzana and then castiglione dei pepoli
[09:44] <mdke> lovely place
[09:44] <enrico> Pizzica is a dance from the south.  Like Tarantella.  It's really fun, and it has some extremely interesting sides
[09:44] <mdke> heh
[09:44] <mdke> i've gotta learn it
[09:44] <enrico> grizzana and castiglione are really lovely
[09:45] <mdke> i like the mountains
[09:45] <mdke> smells much nicer than florence ;)
[09:45] <enrico> Pizzica and Taranta can be fun, can be extremely seducing, and can be danced in a way that gives you mistical visions :)
[09:45] <mdke> cool
[09:45] <enrico> Oh, Florence's air is quite bad
[09:45] <mdke> heh
[10:05] <mdke> *sighs
[10:09] <enrico> mdke: what happens?  Someone kicked you out
[10:09] <enrico> okno
[10:09] <enrico> sorry, silly me
[10:09] <mdke> ping
[10:10] <mdke> the ping monster
[10:56] <mdke> hey something has struck me
[10:57] <mdke> there is no way the restrictedformats wiki could aspire to go on the site
[10:58] <mako> why is that?
[10:58] <mdke> ubuntu distances itself from much of that content no?
[10:58] <mako> in some ways
[10:58] <mdke> paste:
[10:58] <mdke> **Note:** these are unsupported and may be illegal in your jurisdiction, we in no way endorse the use of these packages.
[10:58] <mako> but that doesn't mean that cleaning it up is a bad thing
[10:58] <mdke> oh sure i'll try and clean it up too
[10:59] <mdke> need to find out the difference between the mplayer-ubuntu build and the mplayer-woody build in marillat
[11:03] <mako> debdiff
[11:23] <mdke> hmm
[11:23] <mdke> difficult to resolve inconsistencies in this wiki
[11:23] <mdke> compare:
[11:23] <mdke> 1. "LAME can be used to encode MP3s if you install gstreamer0.8-lame."
[11:23] <mdke> then further down
[11:23] <mdke> 2. Also, for MP3 encoding, the following repository needs to be used:
[11:23] <mdke> ::
[11:23] <mdke>    URI:            http://apt.cerkinfo.be/
[11:23] <mdke>    Distribution:   unstable
[11:23] <mdke>    Section(s):     main contrib non-free
[11:23] <mdke> If the packages in this repository don't work with your distribution (as they track sid), try the packages
[11:24] <mdke> at http://henrik.synth.no/deb/ for MP3 encoding.