| === Burgundavia [~Burgundav@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| Burgundavia | we have an issue with the quickguide | 01:21 |
|---|---|---|
| Burgundavia | my latest patch borked it | 01:21 |
| Burgundavia | I think | 01:21 |
| === mdke_laptop [~mdke_lapt@mdke.user] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| mdke_laptop | anyone here? | 02:13 |
| mdke_laptop | can wikis have multiple parents? | 02:14 |
| Burgundavia | I believe so | 02:20 |
| Burgundavia | I would try it with some test pages | 02:20 |
| mdke_laptop | i asked in #devel | 02:20 |
| mdke_laptop | mdz said not | 02:20 |
| mdke_laptop | i can't find an option to do it | 02:21 |
| mdke_laptop | sucks big time | 02:21 |
| Burgundavia | I think parenting is very counter intuitive, and shouuld be scrapped for a more flexible system | 02:23 |
| mdke_laptop | yeah agreed | 02:24 |
| mdke_laptop | who decides these things? | 02:24 |
| mdke_laptop | is it a software limitation? | 02:25 |
| Burgundavia | yes, it is a software limitation | 02:25 |
| Burgundavia | the version of wiki software we use doesn't have a lot of useful features | 02:25 |
| mdke_laptop | hmm | 02:25 |
| mdke_laptop | who deals with this? | 02:25 |
| Burgundavia | about hacking the wiki? talk to mdz | 02:26 |
| Burgundavia | have you ever edited wikipedia? | 02:26 |
| mdke_laptop | no | 02:26 |
| mdke_laptop | is it good? | 02:26 |
| Burgundavia | their wiki software has things called categories | 02:27 |
| mdke_laptop | i read it quite often when i want to know something | 02:27 |
| Burgundavia | and watchlists | 02:27 |
| mdke_laptop | hmm | 02:27 |
| Burgundavia | categories are similar to parenting in concept | 02:27 |
| Burgundavia | by a page can be part of multiple categories | 02:27 |
| Burgundavia | I personally think that mediawiki(the wiki engine that Wp runs on) is one of the most advanced and that we should either use it or steal its features | 02:28 |
| mdke_laptop | i'm gonna post an inquisitive message on the list and see if people will discuss it | 02:28 |
| mdke_laptop | shall we try and drag mdz in here to discuss it? | 02:29 |
| mdke_laptop | he looks busy | 02:29 |
| Burgundavia | I posted something to the list about switching to the wiki as primary source | 02:30 |
| mdke_laptop | Burgundavia, what's your real name? | 02:30 |
| Burgundavia | Corey Burger | 02:30 |
| mdke_laptop | oh sorry | 02:30 |
| Burgundavia | why? | 02:30 |
| mdke_laptop | well i could have done a whois | 02:30 |
| mdke_laptop | forced you to type more than necessary ;) | 02:30 |
| Burgundavia | the meeting at the end of this week will cover that and much more | 02:30 |
| Burgundavia | np | 02:30 |
| mdke_laptop | ok | 02:30 |
| mdke_laptop | i'll come to the meeting because i'm keen on helping out with the wiki | 02:31 |
| Burgundavia | I suspect that I am outnumbered regarding the wiki as primary source idea | 02:31 |
| mdke_laptop | what do you mean? | 02:31 |
| Burgundavia | I want to drive all our docs out of a wiki. No svn | 02:31 |
| Burgundavia | and change primarily over to writing task-based howtos | 02:32 |
| Burgundavia | which is what most people really need, IMHO | 02:32 |
| mdke_laptop | what is svn | 02:32 |
| mdke_laptop | excuse my ignorance | 02:32 |
| Burgundavia | subversion | 02:32 |
| Burgundavia | revision control system | 02:32 |
| mdke_laptop | i'm not sure you would be in the minority | 02:32 |
| Burgundavia | http://subversion.tigris.org/ | 02:33 |
| mdke_laptop | the ubuntu docs are in a bit of a state | 02:33 |
| mdke_laptop | there are too many sources | 02:33 |
| Burgundavia | yes, we have quickguide, userguide and faqguide | 02:33 |
| Burgundavia | I was thinking that we should get ubuntuguide.org and turn that into our wiki | 02:33 |
| mdke_laptop | hmm | 02:33 |
| mdke_laptop | people would revolt | 02:33 |
| Burgundavia | faqguide is from ubuntuguide.org | 02:33 |
| mdke_laptop | but i tell ya something | 02:33 |
| mdke_laptop | gentoo has no wiki | 02:34 |
| mdke_laptop | and it has the best docs i've ever seen | 02:34 |
| mdke_laptop | website howtos + forum. full stop | 02:34 |
| Burgundavia | wikis allow a very low barrier to entry | 02:34 |
| Burgundavia | I just took a quick skim through the gentoo stuff | 02:35 |
| mdke_laptop | it's not so much the wiki format i dislike, but the fact that docs are impossible to find, and there are so many sources | 02:35 |
| Burgundavia | yes, I agree that they are good docs | 02:36 |
| mdke_laptop | i can't tell you about the content | 02:36 |
| Burgundavia | but they are targeted at a different group of users | 02:36 |
| mdke_laptop | but the structure is good | 02:36 |
| mdke_laptop | hmm | 02:36 |
| Burgundavia | ubuntu-->average user | 02:36 |
| mdke_laptop | yeah good point | 02:36 |
| Burgundavia | gentoo-->power user | 02:36 |
| mdke_laptop | but i think for average users | 02:36 |
| Burgundavia | there are currently very few good docs for the average user | 02:36 |
| mdke_laptop | the local stuff is the most important thing | 02:36 |
| mdke_laptop | you know those guides you guys are working on | 02:37 |
| mdke_laptop | quickguide | 02:37 |
| Burgundavia | yes, the quickguide is a good step | 02:37 |
| mdke_laptop | that is all they need | 02:37 |
| Burgundavia | not really | 02:37 |
| Burgundavia | quickguide is program based, not taskbased | 02:37 |
| mdke_laptop | oh | 02:37 |
| Burgundavia | it tells you about Evolution, not how to send an email | 02:37 |
| mdke_laptop | i c | 02:37 |
| mdke_laptop | so what tells you how to send an email? | 02:37 |
| Burgundavia | nothing currently | 02:37 |
| Burgundavia | see the prob? | 02:37 |
| mdke_laptop | lol | 02:38 |
| mdke_laptop | shit | 02:38 |
| Burgundavia | That is where a wiki comes in | 02:38 |
| Burgundavia | small, easy to digest docs | 02:38 |
| mdke_laptop | yes | 02:38 |
| Burgundavia | able to edit easily | 02:38 |
| Burgundavia | keep very well organized | 02:38 |
| mdke_laptop | well i will try and help out with the wikis cos they are in a mess | 02:38 |
| Burgundavia | http://www.ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=15 | 02:38 |
| Burgundavia | that is the faq forum | 02:38 |
| Burgundavia | that stuff should be a in a wiki | 02:39 |
| mdke_laptop | hmm | 02:39 |
| mdke_laptop | that's exactly what gentoo do | 02:39 |
| mdke_laptop | http://www.gentoo-wiki.com gets the well developed forum tips and tricks topics | 02:39 |
| Burgundavia | that is mediawiki, if you care to know | 02:40 |
| mdke_laptop | you know i'm not much of a geek, but I can easily work on turning that stuff into wikis | 02:40 |
| Burgundavia | I hate the current wiki | 02:40 |
| mdke_laptop | but the wiki needs to be made accessible for users. The frontpage is about as useful as a kick in the head | 02:40 |
| Burgundavia | I am a heavy WP editor, and I miss all the really nice stuff about mediawiki | 02:40 |
| Burgundavia | there is a front page redesign in the works | 02:41 |
| Burgundavia | we need the front page to point to a doc portal | 02:41 |
| Burgundavia | like that gentoo page | 02:41 |
| mdke_laptop | oh | 02:41 |
| mdke_laptop | who works on the frontpage? | 02:41 |
| Burgundavia | there was a contest that just finished to redesign the front page. I believe that somebody from canonical is working on it now | 02:42 |
| mdke_laptop | i mean the wiki/FrontPage | 02:43 |
| mdke_laptop | not the main website | 02:43 |
| Burgundavia | oh | 02:43 |
| Burgundavia | That would be us | 02:43 |
| mdke_laptop | ok cool | 02:43 |
| mdke_laptop | i wanna help | 02:43 |
| Burgundavia | cut loose | 02:44 |
| mdke_laptop | yay | 02:44 |
| Burgundavia | it is a wiki, that is the point | 02:44 |
| mdke_laptop | the wiki frontpage has been redesigned a couple of times | 02:44 |
| Burgundavia | what we need is to break the actual docs away from the talking about docs stuff | 02:45 |
| mdke_laptop | heh | 02:46 |
| mdke_laptop | what do you have in mind when you say that? | 02:46 |
| Burgundavia | I propose we try and get ubuntuguide.org to the offical docs | 02:46 |
| Burgundavia | and we leave the wiki on ubuntu.com for talking about docs | 02:46 |
| mdke_laptop | what do you mean by talking about docs? | 02:46 |
| Burgundavia | there are already a lot of links to ubuntuguide.org, so it would be fairly transparent | 02:46 |
| Burgundavia | the backend chatter between the doc team members | 02:47 |
| mdke_laptop | oh | 02:47 |
| mdke_laptop | well that must be like 1% of the wiki | 02:47 |
| Burgundavia | like this irc channel | 02:47 |
| mdke_laptop | well i suppose the idea is that things get pushed into the official guides when they are mature enough | 02:48 |
| Burgundavia | yes | 02:48 |
| Burgundavia | but if we make the wiki the offical stuff, then we don't have to worry about "pushing stuff into the offical docs when they are mature" | 02:48 |
| mdke_laptop | i found a dud link in the wiki/FrontPage today, and can't find the relevant document. Can i just remove it? its' quite a prominent link | 02:49 |
| mdke_laptop | Burgundavia, i thought you said you wanted to cut docs out of the wiki? | 02:49 |
| Burgundavia | by cut I mean I want to create out of the wiki for the local desktop | 02:50 |
| mdke_laptop | but continue using the wiki for developing? | 02:50 |
| Burgundavia | The wiki would be the primary source still | 02:50 |
| Burgundavia | we would just ship some of the howtos locally so those who have crap internet connections can still view them | 02:51 |
| mdke_laptop | right | 02:51 |
| mdke_laptop | but they would continue to be edited online? | 02:51 |
| Burgundavia | mdke: regarding editing the wiki, the WP motto is "be bold". I like that | 02:51 |
| mdke_laptop | really? | 02:51 |
| mdke_laptop | WP is so good | 02:51 |
| mdke_laptop | why don't more people muck it up? | 02:51 |
| Burgundavia | mdke: We would probably freeze the stable stuff, so that it can be translated | 02:51 |
| Burgundavia | they do, but most of the time it gets caught be people who actually want to create an encyclopedia | 02:52 |
| Burgundavia | and reverted | 02:52 |
| Burgundavia | people like me | 02:52 |
| mdke_laptop | editors? | 02:52 |
| mdke_laptop | we could do with editors | 02:52 |
| Burgundavia | there are 3 classes of people at wp | 02:53 |
| Burgundavia | editors -- everybody | 02:53 |
| Burgundavia | admins -- who can delete pages and ban people | 02:53 |
| Burgundavia | bureaucrats -- who can do some more things | 02:54 |
| mdke_laptop | right | 02:55 |
| mdke_laptop | i c | 02:55 |
| mdke_laptop | yeah my use of "editors" was misplaced | 02:55 |
| Burgundavia | anyway, it should be an interesting meeting | 02:58 |
| mdke_laptop | yeah i will come and try and contribute | 02:58 |
| mdke_laptop | is there a search tool on the wiki? | 02:58 |
| Burgundavia | not that i know of | 02:59 |
| Burgundavia | another flaw | 02:59 |
| mdke_laptop | yeah that is shocking | 02:59 |
| Burgundavia | the wiki is shockingly neglected | 03:00 |
| mdke_laptop | ok consider me onboard | 03:01 |
| mdke_laptop | name's matt btw | 03:02 |
| mdke_laptop | nice to meet ya | 03:02 |
| Burgundavia | likewise | 03:02 |
| mdke_laptop | oh there is a search | 03:05 |
| mdke_laptop | just not advertised | 03:05 |
| mdke_laptop | oh it is advertised | 03:05 |
| mdke_laptop | DOH! | 03:05 |
| Burgundavia | yah, I just saw it as well | 03:06 |
| mdke_laptop | the "installing ubuntu" link on the Frontpage is a dud link | 03:07 |
| mdke_laptop | shame | 03:07 |
| Burgundavia | i just sent an email to owner of ubuntuguide.org to see if he might be receptive to putting a wiki there | 03:13 |
| mdke_laptop | you mean to replace the original one? | 03:14 |
| Burgundavia | the current site is static warty stuff | 03:14 |
| mdke_laptop | yeah i mean a wiki on ubuntuguide to replace the wiki on ubuntu.com? | 03:15 |
| mdke_laptop | on in addition to? | 03:15 |
| mdke_laptop | *or | 03:15 |
| mdke_laptop | oh sorry, i'm beginning to understand what you were proposing earlier now | 03:17 |
| Burgundavia | ubuntu wiki -- for dev stuff, of all stripes, not just doc | 03:17 |
| mdke_laptop | Burgundavia, you might end up setting up a site in competition with the ubuntu.com site, given that that site has an official docs section too | 03:17 |
| Burgundavia | ubuntuguide - where users go for info | 03:17 |
| mdke_laptop | hmm | 03:17 |
| mdke_laptop | but users might also go to ubuntu.com/support/documentation | 03:17 |
| Burgundavia | the stuff on ubuntu.com would be migrated | 03:18 |
| Burgundavia | we control everything on ubuntu.com | 03:18 |
| mdke_laptop | hmm | 03:18 |
| Burgundavia | thus all those would be pointed to ubuntuguide.org | 03:18 |
| mdke_laptop | even the non-wiki stuff? | 03:18 |
| Burgundavia | yes | 03:18 |
| mdke_laptop | ok now this is sounding like a really good idea | 03:18 |
| Burgundavia | absolutely everything would go into the wiki, in an organized fashion | 03:18 |
| Burgundavia | one source | 03:18 |
| Burgundavia | one place | 03:18 |
| mdke_laptop | reduce the number of different sites | 03:18 |
| Burgundavia | one doc to rule them all | 03:19 |
| mdke_laptop | lol | 03:19 |
| mdke_laptop | to bind them | 03:19 |
| mdke_laptop | i will support this idea | 03:19 |
| Burgundavia | and find them in the night | 03:19 |
| mdke_laptop | heh | 03:19 |
| Burgundavia | now we just need to get the stuck in the mud docbook users to sign on | 03:19 |
| mdke_laptop | but the local docbook stuff would continue i guess | 03:19 |
| mdke_laptop | i don't know much about docbook | 03:20 |
| mdke_laptop | but presumably the local and online docs could both use that format | 03:20 |
| Burgundavia | yes, for hoary, but for hoary+1, all wiki, with shipped html/pdf | 03:20 |
| mdke_laptop | hmm | 03:21 |
| mdke_laptop | and what about when grumpy is released? | 03:21 |
| Burgundavia | grumpy is going be a rolling unstable, from what I understand | 03:23 |
| mdke_laptop | oh | 03:23 |
| mdke_laptop | interesting | 03:23 |
| mdke_laptop | ok i'm gonna sleep | 03:24 |
| mdke_laptop | cya again | 03:24 |
| Burgundavia | there is no "official" codename for the next release | 03:24 |
| Burgundavia | cya | 03:24 |
| mdke_laptop | nite | 03:24 |
| froud | African Greetings | 06:20 |
| === warthylog [~warthylog@port49.ds1-van.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| === Topic for #ubuntu-doc: Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://irclog.workaround.org | This channel tries to follow the tradition of the #gnome-love channel on irc.gimp.net, all new comers and questions are welcomed, as long as you follow the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct first. | ||
| === Topic (#ubuntu-doc): set by sivang at Sat Jan 1 20:48:30 2005 | ||
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| Burgundavia | hey | 08:47 |
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| Burgundavia | new patch to the list now | 12:27 |
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| === froud wonders how long it will take before somebody updates the default page of the About Ubuntu option? | ||
| Burgundavia | where is it? | 03:14 |
| froud | System > About Ubuntu | 03:15 |
| froud | Burgundavia: we need to hash out some work procedures | 03:15 |
| Burgundavia | no, where is the doc to work on?\ | 03:15 |
| froud | I know people were apposed to this previously | 03:15 |
| Burgundavia | flesh your idea out please | 03:16 |
| froud | Burgundavia: the doc is done it is packaged in ubuntu-doc | 03:16 |
| froud | work procedure | 03:16 |
| froud | people didn't want hem | 03:16 |
| froud | but I think we do | 03:16 |
| Burgundavia | yes, rules tend to be constricting unless done right | 03:16 |
| froud | I noticed that you are fixing things that once were not broke | 03:16 |
| froud | this is notgood | 03:16 |
| Burgundavia | ok | 03:17 |
| Burgundavia | I understood string freeze to be this friday | 03:17 |
| froud | all thos Not instead of not | 03:17 |
| froud | dunno | 03:17 |
| froud | well see | 03:17 |
| Burgundavia | is Not correct english? | 03:17 |
| Burgundavia | I personally have never seen it written | 03:17 |
| froud | true but in prior version it was not | 03:17 |
| Burgundavia | hmm? | 03:18 |
| froud | thi smeans it has creaped in | 03:18 |
| froud | mainly because of large patches | 03:18 |
| Burgundavia | it was in the doc that I first pulled down | 03:18 |
| froud | In a previous revision it was written "not" | 03:18 |
| Burgundavia | very odd | 03:19 |
| froud | somebody did an autoreplace and the patch was applied | 03:19 |
| Burgundavia | for Not? | 03:19 |
| froud | seems like it | 03:19 |
| froud | anyway | 03:20 |
| froud | I think we need to focus on topics | 03:20 |
| froud | make small patches | 03:20 |
| froud | especially at late stages in the revision steps | 03:20 |
| Burgundavia | I intend to, however, I don't have access right now to svn, and that is being worked on | 03:20 |
| froud | sure | 03:20 |
| Burgundavia | Do you have a major objection to the stuff I am doing? | 03:20 |
| froud | then the best is to do change, create patch, then revert | 03:20 |
| froud | then do new change, create patch, revert | 03:21 |
| froud | I know it's a bitch | 03:21 |
| froud | It's not your fault | 03:21 |
| froud | look in the begin of a doc large patches are needed | 03:21 |
| Burgundavia | well, I intend to wait until I get access, or until that patch I sent to the list gets applied before I do some more stuff | 03:21 |
| froud | but near the end I think small ones are safer | 03:22 |
| froud | I applied it | 03:22 |
| froud | It was a good patch and in this case needed to be one patch not many patches | 03:23 |
| froud | Anything that is a global replace of the same thing should be a single patch | 03:23 |
| Burgundavia | But the langage stuff, you haven't seen anything that causes you issues? | 03:23 |
| froud | anything that is a specific text edit should be a single patch | 03:24 |
| froud | No your patches are good | 03:24 |
| froud | the only thing with some of your changes was that they were intrusive to the paragragh of the original author | 03:24 |
| froud | However, if something is a grammar, punctuation or spelling change it was in order | 03:25 |
| Burgundavia | I don't think I understand | 03:25 |
| froud | In principle somebody wrote a para | 03:25 |
| froud | in some cases you have rewritten the para to your own taste | 03:26 |
| froud | and made shorter | 03:26 |
| froud | I did not always agree | 03:26 |
| Burgundavia | Is it an issue to be rewritting other peoples stuff? | 03:26 |
| froud | dunno if others feel the same | 03:26 |
| froud | to a degree yes | 03:26 |
| Burgundavia | Ok, 2 points | 03:26 |
| froud | ok | 03:27 |
| Burgundavia | 1. It is Ubuntu doc stuff, not there personal stuff. Not to be mean, but we are writing collective stuff | 03:27 |
| froud | next | 03:27 |
| Burgundavia | 2. There is some, IMHO, very bloated sentences. Shorter is generally better, both in sentences and words, as it is easier to translate | 03:28 |
| froud | 1. because it is collective stuff we must respect the method that one author uses to explain something. | 03:28 |
| froud | If the author says please review | 03:28 |
| froud | then it is open to edit | 03:28 |
| Burgundavia | But who is to judge that something is finished? | 03:29 |
| froud | however, if it has gone through review then it should only get changes that are spelling, grammar, or punctuation | 03:29 |
| Burgundavia | I happen to like this line from WP: If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, do not submit it. | 03:29 |
| froud | In general deciding waht gets closed is not formal yet. This is one of my other points for work | 03:30 |
| froud | We dont have a person acting as editor | 03:30 |
| Burgundavia | You see, I think that we should hack apart anything anybody writes if you think you can write it better. | 03:31 |
| froud | I think as the team forms we need to appoint one or two editors | 03:31 |
| Burgundavia | I completely disagree | 03:31 |
| froud | Burgundavia: you are not being sensitive to certain human issues | 03:31 |
| Burgundavia | I dislike that cathedral method of doing things | 03:31 |
| Burgundavia | Ok, sorry | 03:31 |
| Burgundavia | I have been up a very many hours | 03:32 |
| Burgundavia | However, what I really care about is good, easy to read docs at the end of the day | 03:32 |
| Kinnison | Burgundavia: have you been to sleep yet? | 03:32 |
| Burgundavia | Kinnison: nope | 03:32 |
| === Kinnison sends Burgundavia to bed with a cocoa | ||
| Burgundavia | Kinnison: well, since we last talked, yes | 03:32 |
| Kinnison | dude; get your body clock fixed | 03:32 |
| froud | you need to take into consideration that what is good to you may not be good to another | 03:32 |
| Burgundavia | I totally understand that | 03:32 |
| froud | Some people contribute because they get to see their text in the doc | 03:33 |
| Burgundavia | so do I | 03:33 |
| froud | yes but you arrive late and then hate the shit out of what others did | 03:34 |
| Burgundavia | It is much easier to rip apart something after it has been done | 03:34 |
| froud | that's not on imho | 03:34 |
| froud | and may cause people to say well why should I bother if this is going to happen | 03:34 |
| Burgundavia | I happen to think that the quickguide is a really cool idea and 95% is well written | 03:34 |
| froud | and you endup doing it by yourself | 03:34 |
| froud | what I am saying is add value and fix, but leave others taste in tact | 03:35 |
| froud | there are many things I would like to have rewritten | 03:35 |
| froud | but I do not | 03:35 |
| Burgundavia | but what if add value involves removing what I think are redundant words? | 03:35 |
| froud | there are many of your things I want to change | 03:35 |
| froud | I do not | 03:35 |
| Burgundavia | then change them | 03:35 |
| froud | so when does it stop | 03:35 |
| Burgundavia | I have no emotional attachment to anything I have written | 03:35 |
| Burgundavia | at string freeze | 03:36 |
| froud | what I am saying is at this stage it is not the time to add your flare | 03:36 |
| froud | or opinion to how someting should or should not be said | 03:36 |
| Burgundavia | I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding about what I am trying to do | 03:36 |
| froud | I understand what you are doing and really I appreciate the efforttttt | 03:37 |
| froud | I just ask for you to be sensitive to others | 03:37 |
| Burgundavia | Ok, now I feel like screaming | 03:37 |
| Burgundavia | If none of us ever edit each others stuff, then the docs will go nowhere | 03:37 |
| froud | as a collective effort this kind of consideration is required I think | 03:37 |
| Burgundavia | The evolutionary process of writing works very well | 03:38 |
| froud | there is edit and there is rewrite | 03:38 |
| froud | After the release please hash it to hearts content | 03:38 |
| froud | Burgundavia: you see you came in late | 03:38 |
| Burgundavia | I realize that | 03:38 |
| froud | and your changes , some of them , are good | 03:38 |
| froud | but some of them are not IMHO | 03:39 |
| Burgundavia | then revert the ones you don't like | 03:39 |
| froud | hard when it is in one patch and besides | 03:39 |
| froud | I have other stuff to do | 03:39 |
| froud | if we constantly go changing what we wrote it becomes a cycle that is hard to break | 03:40 |
| Burgundavia | Yes, we are very close to release. I realize that | 03:40 |
| Burgundavia | However, we are NOT yet at string freeze | 03:40 |
| froud | because we are working in the bazaar model | 03:40 |
| froud | we need to take consideration of the other writers | 03:40 |
| Burgundavia | we should not be wasting time that could be valuably spent tweaking docs to make them flow better | 03:40 |
| froud | matters of opinion and taste are done at review stages | 03:41 |
| Burgundavia | this is the review stage | 03:41 |
| froud | not at complete | 03:41 |
| Burgundavia | every second of every day is the review stage | 03:41 |
| froud | no status="complete" | 03:41 |
| Burgundavia | until string freeze | 03:41 |
| froud | only changes should be gramatic err, spelling or punctuation | 03:41 |
| Burgundavia | for me status != complete until string freeze | 03:41 |
| froud | we are going to find it hard to work with one another then | 03:42 |
| froud | as I said before | 03:42 |
| froud | there are things other authors have written | 03:42 |
| froud | that I myself want to change | 03:42 |
| froud | I have not done so | 03:42 |
| Burgundavia | I recognize that | 03:43 |
| froud | I have limited my edit to spelling, grammar and punctuation | 03:43 |
| froud | not my own opinion of what is better | 03:43 |
| Burgundavia | I find that attitude very puzzling | 03:43 |
| froud | please dont get me wrong, I respect your efforst | 03:43 |
| froud | efforts | 03:43 |
| Burgundavia | I absolutely respect the other authors, but I expect my stuff to be edited. Some times the words just come, and sometimes they dont | 03:44 |
| froud | yes, but if another person explains something, and it can be understood, leave it be at this late stage | 03:45 |
| froud | If you feel however that you have something to add, then do so. | 03:45 |
| froud | naturally this may require modification of the autors text | 03:45 |
| froud | but try make it less intrusive at this late stage | 03:45 |
| Burgundavia | But sometimes in order to add to the greater understanding, removal is good | 03:46 |
| froud | Yes but you have this approach as blanket | 03:46 |
| froud | sometimes what you wanted to say could have been added without deleting what was already written | 03:47 |
| froud | sometimes you replace the original authors point with another point that you think to be more important | 03:47 |
| froud | consider that a few people have been reding these docs | 03:47 |
| froud | reading | 03:47 |
| froud | you are comming in at a later stage | 03:47 |
| froud | if the text is what it is at this time then perhaps people are happy with it | 03:48 |
| froud | sometimes a radical change is required | 03:48 |
| froud | for example I misunderstood sudo and you did an excellentfix to it | 03:49 |
| froud | and you were right to | 03:49 |
| froud | because it was technically incorrect | 03:49 |
| froud | so what I am saying is the degree of intrusion depends on the problem | 03:49 |
| Burgundavia | Ok, I have just posted something to the list regarding this | 03:50 |
| froud | Ok | 03:50 |
| Burgundavia | I am interested to see what other people think | 03:50 |
| Burgundavia | See, I couldn't disagree with you more on the what to edit points | 03:50 |
| froud | Ok | 03:50 |
| froud | OK we can agree to disagree | 03:50 |
| Burgundavia | For the future, I gather you would like it if I just left anything marked complete alone? | 03:52 |
| froud | At late stage in development it is good to limit to spelling, grammar and punctuation | 03:52 |
| froud | early stages are much as you describe in your email | 03:52 |
| froud | but at some point we must stabilize | 03:53 |
| froud | as I said, remember for the pass few months at least five other people have been reviewing | 03:53 |
| Burgundavia | see, I would say that there is always room for one more set of eyeballs | 03:56 |
| froud | many eyeballs is good | 03:57 |
| froud | what action they take at what stage is the issue | 03:57 |
| froud | there are a million ways something can be explained | 03:57 |
| froud | put 10 people in a room and each will explain it differently | 03:58 |
| froud | all are right | 03:58 |
| froud | and at a certain stage in the development radical change is great | 03:58 |
| Burgundavia | Ok, I see one major issue with lots of late editing: tranlations | 03:59 |
| Burgundavia | but i haven't seen anything regarding our contact with the translation people | 03:59 |
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| froud | luckily in this doc it is not the case | 04:02 |
| Burgundavia | what do you mean? | 04:02 |
| froud | mean about what | 04:04 |
| Burgundavia | luckily in this doc it is not the case | 04:04 |
| froud | well we have maily just captured the main screen | 04:04 |
| froud | in startup state | 04:04 |
| froud | but in some docs a specific state can complicate issues | 04:05 |
| Burgundavia | from what I understand of other places, after string freeze, the translators kick into high gear | 04:05 |
| froud | yes, but an png does not involve a string change | 04:06 |
| Burgundavia | I am referring more to lots of changes to the text | 04:06 |
| froud | yes, but they will translate what there is. 10 words or 100 | 04:07 |
| Burgundavia | I understand your issues with late changes. I just don't see them as such a huge issue. I see translation as a far bigger one | 04:07 |
| froud | the only way to improve the translation process is to apply Simplified English | 04:08 |
| froud | by you dont want to go there | 04:08 |
| froud | unless you have a good team | 04:08 |
| Burgundavia | I didn't say I did | 04:08 |
| Burgundavia | What I did say was that a shorter words tends to be easier to translate | 04:08 |
| Burgundavia | and so does a shorter sentence | 04:09 |
| froud | When writing it is better to concerntrate on clarity | 04:09 |
| froud | not what will the translator have to do | 04:09 |
| froud | Translation is only made easier by using simplified english | 04:10 |
| froud | what makes translation hard is grammar | 04:10 |
| Burgundavia | but I think, IMHO, that that fails to look at the bigger picture of Linux as mulit-lingual. You want to look at both | 04:10 |
| froud | No you want to focus on your audience | 04:10 |
| Burgundavia | which is multi-lingual | 04:11 |
| froud | tranlations manages just fine | 04:11 |
| Burgundavia | I see the ubuntu audience as multi-lingual mostly non-techy people | 04:11 |
| froud | The language is not the object | 04:11 |
| froud | the audience is | 04:11 |
| froud | how translations does it is thier concern | 04:12 |
| froud | and to date I see they do a good job | 04:12 |
| froud | the translation process is largely automated | 04:13 |
| froud | it's just the grammar that needs human checking | 04:13 |
| froud | altough, over time, translation memories do get very accurate | 04:13 |
| froud | they are not perfect | 04:13 |
| froud | in every instance | 04:13 |
| Burgundavia | No, we need to facilitate them, by simplifying our language (by which I also include grammar). | 04:13 |
| Burgundavia | Also simpler language helps our target audience of non-techies | 04:14 |
| froud | Then they only way to help is use Simplified English | 04:14 |
| froud | The problem with our audience is that more explaining is required as apposed to less | 04:14 |
| froud | the more technical the audience the less you need to say | 04:14 |
| froud | As Winston Churchill sais, "Sorry I wrote such a long letter, I did not have enough time to write a short one." | 04:15 |
| Burgundavia | But we really don't need to explain how things work. We just need to explain how to do it | 04:15 |
| froud | said | 04:15 |
| Burgundavia | There are lots of docs for those who need to know things work | 04:15 |
| froud | The idea behind quick guide was to say what things are | 04:16 |
| Burgundavia | insert how before things in my last statment | 04:16 |
| froud | in some places authors add ideas how they may be used | 04:16 |
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| froud | Anyway this is going off topic | 04:17 |
| Burgundavia | yes | 04:17 |
| froud | btw. I do like the fact that together we bring bradth of perfective to the team | 04:18 |
| froud | breadth | 04:19 |
| froud | we may not agree but at least there is a good side | 04:19 |
| froud | :-) | 04:19 |
| froud | IMHO | 04:19 |
| froud | we are both over powering types | 04:19 |
| froud | we say what we think and feel | 04:19 |
| froud | and that is a good thing to some extent | 04:20 |
| froud | so please know that I do respect and appreciate the effort you are putting in and the ideas you are raising | 04:20 |
| Burgundavia | It is good to have someone to check me sometimes | 04:22 |
| froud | likewise ;-) | 04:23 |
| froud | and that is the strength of open-source | 04:23 |
| Burgundavia | You come from the traditional way of writing docs, which can be a very good thing | 04:24 |
| Burgundavia | I come from the rough and tumble, every edits everything, WP | 04:24 |
| froud | what is the traditional way :-) | 04:24 |
| Burgundavia | Big monolithic docs | 04:24 |
| froud | GNOME once worked like that | 04:24 |
| Burgundavia | Well organized | 04:24 |
| froud | not really | 04:25 |
| Burgundavia | With things like cutoff dates and the like | 04:25 |
| Burgundavia | I say work until the very last minute | 04:25 |
| froud | Well once GNOME was a free for all and it was a mess | 04:25 |
| froud | I must go there is a GNOME party tonight and I am already late | 04:26 |
| froud | nice chatting | 04:26 |
| Burgundavia | free for all edit != free for all organization | 04:26 |
| Burgundavia | hmm | 04:26 |
| Burgundavia | sleepy | 04:26 |
| Burgundavia | is 7am and I haven't slept yet | 04:26 |
| froud | yeah you must be dead | 04:26 |
| froud | b c'ing ya | 04:26 |
| Burgundavia | indeed | 04:26 |
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| Burgundavia | hey | 04:46 |
| Kinnison | Burgundavia: GO. TO. BED. | 04:47 |
| mdke_school | hi | 04:47 |
| mdke_school | hi kinnison | 04:50 |
| mdke_school | i haven't met you yet | 04:50 |
| mdke_school | my name's matt | 04:50 |
| === Kinnison is Daniel | ||
| mdke_school | yeah i saw | 04:52 |
| mdke_school | sorry to have moved your wiki ;p | 04:52 |
| Kinnison | hmm? | 04:52 |
| mdke_school | i reparented your wiki | 04:52 |
| Burgundavia | Kinnison: but in bed you get no hacking done | 04:53 |
| mdke_school | hope you don't mind | 04:53 |
| mdke_school | Burgundavia, sleeeeeep | 04:53 |
| Kinnison | Burgundavia: go to bed; or I'll take you there myself and you won't enjoy that | 04:53 |
| Kinnison | mdke_school: Not at all | 04:53 |
| mdke_school | :) | 04:53 |
| mdke_school | kinky | 04:53 |
| Burgundavia | hey, I only said I would be the cameraman | 04:53 |
| Kinnison | Burgundavia: exactly :-( | 04:54 |
| Burgundavia | ah poor you | 04:54 |
| Burgundavia | doesn't look like I am coming to aussieland | 04:55 |
| Kinnison | bah | 04:55 |
| Burgundavia | unless you can convince your employer otherwise | 04:55 |
| === Kinnison glances to his right | ||
| Kinnison | doubt it | 04:55 |
| Burgundavia | I haven't done enough for Ubuntu due to extended non-internetness | 04:55 |
| === Kinnison nods | ||
| Burgundavia | are you in London right now? | 04:56 |
| Kinnison | yah | 04:56 |
| mdke_school | yay for london | 04:56 |
| mdke_school | london is great | 04:57 |
| Burgundavia | matt, where are you? | 04:57 |
| mdke_school | at school in holborn, london | 04:59 |
| Burgundavia | ah | 04:59 |
| mdke_school | i read your discussion about editing docs | 05:00 |
| mdke_school | tricky question | 05:00 |
| Burgundavia | which of many? | 05:00 |
| Burgundavia | the recent one? | 05:01 |
| Burgundavia | I seem to exist currently to challenge people | 05:01 |
| mdke_school | lol | 05:01 |
| mdke_school | discussions are good | 05:01 |
| mdke_school | as Mill would have said | 05:02 |
| mdke_school | he might have put it even better actually | 05:02 |
| Burgundavia | Kinnison can vouch for the fact that I am not stark raving mad in person | 05:02 |
| Burgundavia | Mill? | 05:02 |
| mdke_school | the philosopher guy | 05:02 |
| mdke_school | anyway, yes, the recent one | 05:02 |
| Burgundavia | John Stuart Mill (1806-1873) | 05:03 |
| Burgundavia | this one | 05:03 |
| Burgundavia | ? | 05:03 |
| Kinnison | Burgundavia: you're not? | 05:03 |
| Burgundavia | Kinnison: HEY! | 05:03 |
| Kinnison | Burgundavia: did you send a stand-in to the ubuntu conference? | 05:03 |
| Burgundavia | I expected support! | 05:04 |
| Kinnison | Burgundavia: You only want to be the cameraman and you expect support? | 05:05 |
| Kinnison | pah | 05:05 |
| mdke_school | ok i have to go do some work | 05:05 |
| mdke_school | back later | 05:05 |
| Kinnison | cya | 05:05 |
| Burgundavia | alright, I go sleep now | 05:07 |
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| abelli | allo | 09:19 |
| abelli | how can i htmlize a man page? | 09:19 |
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| abelli | enrico: can you help? | 09:32 |
| abelli | how can i htmlize a man page? | 09:32 |
| enrico | abelli: something like groff -man -Thtml | 09:32 |
| abelli | enrico: unbelievable as ever. | 09:33 |
| abelli | grazie | 09:33 |
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