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Burgundaviawe have an issue with the quickguide01:21
Burgundaviamy latest patch borked it01:21
BurgundaviaI think01:21
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mdke_laptopanyone here?02:13
mdke_laptopcan wikis have multiple parents?02:14
BurgundaviaI believe so02:20
BurgundaviaI would try it with some test pages02:20
mdke_laptopi asked in #devel02:20
mdke_laptopmdz said not02:20
mdke_laptopi can't find an option to do it02:21
mdke_laptopsucks big time02:21
BurgundaviaI think parenting is very counter intuitive, and shouuld be scrapped for a more flexible system02:23
mdke_laptopyeah agreed02:24
mdke_laptopwho decides these things?02:24
mdke_laptopis it a software limitation?02:25
Burgundaviayes, it is a software limitation02:25
Burgundaviathe version of wiki software we use doesn't have a lot of useful features02:25
mdke_laptopwho deals with this?02:25
Burgundaviaabout hacking the wiki? talk to mdz02:26
Burgundaviahave you ever edited wikipedia?02:26
mdke_laptopis it good?02:26
Burgundaviatheir wiki software has things called categories02:27
mdke_laptopi read it quite often when i want to know something02:27
Burgundaviaand watchlists02:27
Burgundaviacategories are similar to parenting in concept02:27
Burgundaviaby a page can be part of multiple categories02:27
BurgundaviaI personally think that mediawiki(the wiki engine that Wp runs on) is one of the most advanced and that we should either use it or steal its features02:28
mdke_laptopi'm gonna post an inquisitive message on the list and see if people will discuss it02:28
mdke_laptopshall we try and drag mdz in here to discuss it?02:29
mdke_laptophe looks busy02:29
BurgundaviaI posted something to the list about switching to the wiki as primary source02:30
mdke_laptopBurgundavia, what's your real name?02:30
BurgundaviaCorey Burger02:30
mdke_laptopoh sorry02:30
mdke_laptopwell i could have done a whois02:30
mdke_laptopforced you to type more than necessary ;)02:30
Burgundaviathe meeting at the end of this week will cover that and much more02:30
mdke_laptopi'll come to the meeting because i'm keen on helping out with the wiki02:31
BurgundaviaI suspect that I am outnumbered regarding the wiki as primary source idea02:31
mdke_laptopwhat do you mean?02:31
BurgundaviaI want to drive all our docs out of a wiki. No svn02:31
Burgundaviaand change primarily over to writing task-based howtos02:32
Burgundaviawhich is what most people really need, IMHO02:32
mdke_laptopwhat is svn02:32
mdke_laptopexcuse my ignorance02:32
Burgundaviarevision control system02:32
mdke_laptopi'm not sure you would be in the minority02:32
mdke_laptopthe ubuntu docs are in a bit of a state02:33
mdke_laptopthere are too many sources02:33
Burgundaviayes, we have quickguide, userguide and faqguide02:33
BurgundaviaI was thinking that we should get ubuntuguide.org and turn that into our wiki02:33
mdke_laptoppeople would revolt02:33
Burgundaviafaqguide is from ubuntuguide.org02:33
mdke_laptopbut i tell ya something02:33
mdke_laptopgentoo has no wiki02:34
mdke_laptopand it has the best docs i've ever seen02:34
mdke_laptopwebsite howtos + forum. full stop02:34
Burgundaviawikis allow a very low barrier to entry02:34
BurgundaviaI just took a quick skim through the gentoo stuff02:35
mdke_laptopit's not so much the wiki format i dislike, but the fact that docs are impossible to find, and there are so many sources02:35
Burgundaviayes, I agree that they are good docs02:36
mdke_laptopi can't tell you about the content02:36
Burgundaviabut they are targeted at a different group of users02:36
mdke_laptopbut the structure is good02:36
Burgundaviaubuntu-->average user02:36
mdke_laptopyeah good point02:36
Burgundaviagentoo-->power user02:36
mdke_laptopbut i think for average users02:36
Burgundaviathere are currently very few good docs for the average user02:36
mdke_laptopthe local stuff is the most important thing02:36
mdke_laptopyou know those guides you guys are working on02:37
Burgundaviayes, the quickguide is a good step02:37
mdke_laptopthat is all they need02:37
Burgundavianot really02:37
Burgundaviaquickguide is program based, not taskbased02:37
Burgundaviait tells you about Evolution, not how to send an email02:37
mdke_laptopi c02:37
mdke_laptopso what tells you how to send an email?02:37
Burgundavianothing currently02:37
Burgundaviasee the prob?02:37
BurgundaviaThat is where a wiki comes in02:38
Burgundaviasmall, easy to digest docs02:38
Burgundaviaable to edit easily02:38
Burgundaviakeep very well organized02:38
mdke_laptopwell i will try and help out with the wikis cos they are in a mess02:38
Burgundaviathat is the faq forum02:38
Burgundaviathat stuff should be a in a wiki02:39
mdke_laptopthat's exactly what gentoo do02:39
mdke_laptophttp://www.gentoo-wiki.com gets the well developed forum tips and tricks topics02:39
Burgundaviathat is mediawiki, if you care to know02:40
mdke_laptopyou know i'm not much of a geek, but I can easily work on turning that stuff into wikis02:40
BurgundaviaI hate the current wiki02:40
mdke_laptopbut the wiki needs to be made accessible for users. The frontpage is about as useful as a kick in the head02:40
BurgundaviaI am a heavy WP editor, and I miss all the really nice stuff about mediawiki02:40
Burgundaviathere is a front page redesign in the works02:41
Burgundaviawe need the front page to point to a doc portal02:41
Burgundavialike that gentoo page02:41
mdke_laptopwho works on the frontpage?02:41
Burgundaviathere was a contest that just finished to redesign the front page. I believe that somebody from canonical is working on it now02:42
mdke_laptopi mean the wiki/FrontPage02:43
mdke_laptopnot the main website02:43
BurgundaviaThat would be us02:43
mdke_laptopok cool02:43
mdke_laptopi wanna help02:43
Burgundaviacut loose02:44
Burgundaviait is a wiki, that is the point02:44
mdke_laptopthe wiki frontpage has been redesigned a couple of times02:44
Burgundaviawhat we need is to break the actual docs away from the talking about docs stuff02:45
mdke_laptopwhat do you have in mind when you say that?02:46
BurgundaviaI propose we try and get ubuntuguide.org to the offical docs02:46
Burgundaviaand we leave the wiki on ubuntu.com for talking about docs02:46
mdke_laptopwhat do you mean by talking about docs?02:46
Burgundaviathere are already a lot of links to ubuntuguide.org, so it would be fairly transparent02:46
Burgundaviathe backend chatter between the doc team members02:47
mdke_laptopwell that must be like 1% of the wiki02:47
Burgundavialike this irc channel02:47
mdke_laptopwell i suppose the idea is that things get pushed into the official guides when they are mature enough02:48
Burgundaviabut if we make the wiki the offical stuff, then we don't have to worry about "pushing stuff into the offical docs when they are mature"02:48
mdke_laptopi found a dud link in the wiki/FrontPage today, and can't find the relevant document. Can i just remove it? its' quite a prominent link02:49
mdke_laptopBurgundavia, i thought you said you wanted to cut docs out of the wiki?02:49
Burgundaviaby cut I mean I want to create out of the wiki for the local desktop02:50
mdke_laptopbut continue using the wiki for developing?02:50
BurgundaviaThe wiki would be the primary source still02:50
Burgundaviawe would just ship some of the howtos locally so those who have crap internet connections can still view them02:51
mdke_laptopbut they would continue to be edited online?02:51
Burgundaviamdke: regarding editing the wiki, the WP motto is "be bold". I like that02:51
mdke_laptopWP is so good02:51
mdke_laptopwhy don't more people muck it up?02:51
Burgundaviamdke: We would probably freeze the stable stuff, so that it can be translated02:51
Burgundaviathey do, but most of the time it gets caught be people who actually want to create an encyclopedia02:52
Burgundaviaand reverted02:52
Burgundaviapeople like me02:52
mdke_laptopwe could do with editors02:52
Burgundaviathere are 3 classes of people at wp02:53
Burgundaviaeditors -- everybody02:53
Burgundaviaadmins -- who can delete pages and ban people02:53
Burgundaviabureaucrats -- who can do some more things02:54
mdke_laptopi c02:55
mdke_laptopyeah my use of "editors" was misplaced02:55
Burgundaviaanyway, it should be an interesting meeting02:58
mdke_laptopyeah i will come and try and contribute02:58
mdke_laptopis there a search tool on the wiki?02:58
Burgundavianot that i know of02:59
Burgundaviaanother flaw02:59
mdke_laptopyeah that is shocking02:59
Burgundaviathe wiki is shockingly neglected03:00
mdke_laptopok consider me onboard03:01
mdke_laptopname's matt btw03:02
mdke_laptopnice to meet ya03:02
mdke_laptopoh there is a search03:05
mdke_laptopjust not advertised03:05
mdke_laptopoh it is advertised03:05
Burgundaviayah, I just saw it as well03:06
mdke_laptopthe "installing ubuntu" link on the Frontpage is a dud link03:07
Burgundaviai just sent an email to owner of ubuntuguide.org to see if he might be receptive to putting a wiki there03:13
mdke_laptopyou mean to replace the original one?03:14
Burgundaviathe current site is static warty stuff03:14
mdke_laptopyeah i mean a wiki on ubuntuguide to replace the wiki on ubuntu.com?03:15
mdke_laptopon in addition to?03:15
mdke_laptopoh sorry, i'm beginning to understand what you were proposing earlier now03:17
Burgundaviaubuntu wiki -- for dev stuff, of all stripes, not just doc03:17
mdke_laptopBurgundavia, you might end up setting up a site in competition with the ubuntu.com site, given that that site has an official docs section too03:17
Burgundaviaubuntuguide - where users go for info03:17
mdke_laptopbut users might also go to ubuntu.com/support/documentation03:17
Burgundaviathe stuff on ubuntu.com would be migrated03:18
Burgundaviawe control everything on ubuntu.com03:18
Burgundaviathus all those would be pointed to ubuntuguide.org03:18
mdke_laptopeven the non-wiki stuff?03:18
mdke_laptopok now this is sounding like a really good idea03:18
Burgundaviaabsolutely everything would go into the wiki, in an organized fashion03:18
Burgundaviaone source03:18
Burgundaviaone place03:18
mdke_laptopreduce the number of different sites03:18
Burgundaviaone doc to rule them all03:19
mdke_laptopto bind them03:19
mdke_laptopi will support this idea03:19
Burgundaviaand find them in the night03:19
Burgundavianow we just need to get the stuck in the mud docbook users to sign on03:19
mdke_laptopbut the local docbook stuff would continue i guess03:19
mdke_laptopi don't know much about docbook03:20
mdke_laptopbut presumably the local and online docs could both use that format03:20
Burgundaviayes, for hoary, but for hoary+1, all wiki, with shipped html/pdf03:20
mdke_laptopand what about when grumpy is released?03:21
Burgundaviagrumpy is going be a rolling unstable, from what I understand03:23
mdke_laptopok i'm gonna sleep03:24
mdke_laptopcya again03:24
Burgundaviathere is no "official" codename for the next release03:24
froudAfrican Greetings06:20
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=== Topic for #ubuntu-doc: Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://irclog.workaround.org | This channel tries to follow the tradition of the #gnome-love channel on irc.gimp.net, all new comers and questions are welcomed, as long as you follow the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct first.
=== Topic (#ubuntu-doc): set by sivang at Sat Jan 1 20:48:30 2005
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Burgundavianew patch to the list now12:27
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=== froud wonders how long it will take before somebody updates the default page of the About Ubuntu option?
Burgundaviawhere is it?03:14
froudSystem > About Ubuntu03:15
froudBurgundavia: we need to hash out some work procedures03:15
Burgundaviano, where is the doc to work on?\03:15
froudI know people were apposed to this previously03:15
Burgundaviaflesh your idea out please03:16
froudBurgundavia: the doc is done it is packaged in ubuntu-doc03:16
froudwork procedure03:16
froudpeople didn't want hem03:16
froudbut I think we do03:16
Burgundaviayes, rules tend to be constricting unless done right03:16
froudI noticed that you are fixing things that once were not broke03:16
froudthis is notgood03:16
BurgundaviaI understood string freeze to be this friday03:17
froudall thos Not instead of not03:17
frouddunno 03:17
froudwell see03:17
Burgundaviais Not correct english?03:17
BurgundaviaI personally have never seen it written03:17
froudtrue but in prior version it was not03:17
froudthi smeans it has creaped in03:18
froudmainly because of large patches03:18
Burgundaviait was in the doc that I first pulled down03:18
froudIn a previous revision it was written "not"03:18
Burgundaviavery odd03:19
froudsomebody did an autoreplace and the patch was applied03:19
Burgundaviafor Not?03:19
froudseems like it03:19
froudI think we need to focus on topics03:20
froudmake small patches03:20
froudespecially at late stages in the revision steps03:20
BurgundaviaI intend to, however, I don't have access right now to svn, and that is being worked on03:20
BurgundaviaDo you have a major objection to the stuff I am doing?03:20
froudthen the best is to do change, create patch, then revert03:20
froudthen do new change, create patch, revert03:21
froudI know it's a bitch03:21
froudIt's not your fault03:21
froudlook in the begin of a doc large patches are needed03:21
Burgundaviawell, I intend to wait until I get access, or until that patch I sent to the list gets applied before I do some more stuff03:21
froudbut near the end I think small ones are safer03:22
froudI applied it03:22
froudIt was a good patch and in this case needed to be one patch not many patches03:23
froudAnything that is a global replace of the same thing should be a single patch03:23
BurgundaviaBut the langage stuff, you haven't seen anything that causes you issues?03:23
froudanything that is a specific text edit should be a single patch03:24
froudNo your patches are good03:24
froudthe only thing with some of your changes was that they were intrusive to the paragragh of the original author03:24
froudHowever, if something is a grammar, punctuation or spelling change it was in order03:25
BurgundaviaI don't think I understand03:25
froudIn principle somebody wrote a para03:25
froudin some cases you have rewritten the para to your own taste03:26
froudand made shorter03:26
froudI did not always agree03:26
BurgundaviaIs it an issue to be rewritting other peoples stuff?03:26
frouddunno if others feel the same03:26
froudto a degree yes03:26
BurgundaviaOk, 2 points03:26
Burgundavia1. It is Ubuntu doc stuff, not there personal stuff. Not to be mean, but we are writing collective stuff03:27
Burgundavia2. There is some, IMHO, very bloated sentences. Shorter is generally better, both in sentences and words, as it is easier to translate03:28
froud1. because it is collective stuff we must respect the method that one author uses to explain something.03:28
froudIf the author says please review03:28
froudthen it is open to edit03:28
BurgundaviaBut who is to judge that something is finished?03:29
froudhowever, if it has gone through review then it should only get changes that are spelling, grammar, or punctuation03:29
BurgundaviaI happen to like this line from WP: If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, do not submit it.03:29
froudIn general deciding waht gets closed is not formal yet. This is one of my other points for work03:30
froudWe dont have a person acting as  editor03:30
BurgundaviaYou see, I think that we should hack apart anything anybody writes if you think you can write it better.03:31
froudI think as the team forms we need to appoint one or two editors03:31
BurgundaviaI completely disagree03:31
froudBurgundavia: you are not being sensitive to certain human issues03:31
BurgundaviaI dislike that cathedral method of doing things03:31
BurgundaviaOk, sorry03:31
BurgundaviaI have been up a very many hours03:32
BurgundaviaHowever, what I really care about is good, easy to read docs at the end of the day03:32
KinnisonBurgundavia: have you been to sleep yet?03:32
BurgundaviaKinnison: nope03:32
=== Kinnison sends Burgundavia to bed with a cocoa
BurgundaviaKinnison: well, since we last talked, yes03:32
Kinnisondude; get your body clock fixed03:32
froudyou need to take into consideration that what is good to you may not be good to another03:32
BurgundaviaI totally understand that03:32
froudSome people contribute because they get to see their text in the doc03:33
Burgundaviaso do I03:33
froudyes but you arrive late and then hate the shit out of what others did03:34
BurgundaviaIt is much easier to rip apart something after it has been done03:34
froudthat's not on imho03:34
froudand may cause people to say well why should I bother if this is going to happen03:34
BurgundaviaI happen to think that the quickguide is a really cool idea and 95% is well written03:34
froudand you endup doing it by yourself03:34
froudwhat I am saying is add value and fix, but leave others taste in tact03:35
froudthere are many things I would like to have rewritten03:35
froudbut I do  not03:35
Burgundaviabut what if add value involves removing what I think are redundant words?03:35
froudthere are many of your things I want to change03:35
froudI do not03:35
Burgundaviathen change them03:35
froudso when does it stop03:35
BurgundaviaI have no emotional attachment to anything I have written03:35
Burgundaviaat string freeze03:36
froudwhat I am saying is at this stage it is not the time to add your flare03:36
froudor opinion to how someting should or should not be said03:36
BurgundaviaI think there is a fundamental misunderstanding about what I am trying to do03:36
froudI understand what you are doing and really I   appreciate the efforttttt03:37
froudI just ask for you to be sensitive to others03:37
BurgundaviaOk, now I feel like screaming03:37
BurgundaviaIf none of us ever edit each others stuff, then the docs will go nowhere03:37
froudas a collective effort this kind of consideration is required I think03:37
BurgundaviaThe evolutionary process of writing works very well03:38
froudthere is edit and there is rewrite03:38
froudAfter the release please hash it to hearts content03:38
froudBurgundavia: you see you came in late03:38
BurgundaviaI realize that03:38
froudand your changes , some of them , are good03:38
froudbut some of them are not IMHO03:39
Burgundaviathen revert the ones you don't like03:39
froudhard when it is in one patch and besides03:39
froudI have other stuff to do03:39
froudif we constantly go changing what we wrote it becomes a cycle that is hard to break03:40
BurgundaviaYes, we are very close to release. I realize that03:40
BurgundaviaHowever, we are NOT yet at string freeze03:40
froudbecause we are working in the bazaar model03:40
froudwe need to take consideration of the other writers03:40
Burgundaviawe should not be wasting time that could be valuably spent tweaking docs to make them flow better03:40
froudmatters of opinion and taste are done at review stages03:41
Burgundaviathis is the review stage03:41
froudnot at complete03:41
Burgundaviaevery second of every day is the review stage03:41
froudno status="complete"03:41
Burgundaviauntil string freeze03:41
froudonly changes should be gramatic err, spelling or punctuation 03:41
Burgundaviafor me status != complete until string freeze03:41
froudwe are going to find it hard to work with one another then03:42
froudas I said before03:42
froudthere are things other authors have written03:42
froudthat I myself want to change03:42
froudI have not done so03:42
BurgundaviaI recognize that03:43
froudI have limited my edit to spelling, grammar and punctuation03:43
froudnot my own opinion of what is better03:43
BurgundaviaI find that attitude very puzzling03:43
froudplease dont get me wrong, I respect your efforst03:43
BurgundaviaI absolutely respect the other authors, but I expect my stuff to be edited. Some times the words just come, and sometimes they dont03:44
froudyes, but if another person explains something, and it can be understood, leave it be at this late stage03:45
froudIf you feel however that you have something to add, then do so.03:45
froudnaturally this may require modification of the autors text03:45
froudbut try make it less intrusive at this late stage03:45
BurgundaviaBut sometimes in order to add to the greater understanding, removal is good03:46
froudYes but you have this approach as blanket03:46
froudsometimes what you wanted to say could have been added without deleting what was already written03:47
froudsometimes you replace the original authors point with another point that you think to be more important03:47
froudconsider that a few people have been reding these docs03:47
froudyou are comming in at a later stage03:47
froudif the text is what it is at this time then perhaps people are happy with it03:48
froudsometimes a radical change is required03:48
froudfor example I misunderstood sudo and you did an excellentfix to it03:49
froudand you were right to03:49
froudbecause it was technically incorrect03:49
froudso what I am saying is the degree of intrusion depends on the problem03:49
BurgundaviaOk, I have just posted something to the list regarding this03:50
BurgundaviaI am interested to see what other people think03:50
BurgundaviaSee, I couldn't disagree with you more on the what to edit points03:50
froudOK we can agree to disagree03:50
BurgundaviaFor the future, I gather you would like it if I just left anything marked complete alone?03:52
froudAt late stage in development it is good to limit to spelling, grammar and punctuation03:52
froudearly stages are much as you describe in your email03:52
froudbut at some point we must stabilize03:53
froudas I said, remember for the pass few months at least five other people have been reviewing03:53
Burgundaviasee, I would say that there is always room for one more set of eyeballs03:56
froudmany eyeballs is good03:57
froudwhat action they take at what stage is the issue03:57
froudthere are a million ways something can be explained03:57
froudput 10 people in a room and each will explain it differently03:58
froudall are right03:58
froudand at a certain stage in the development radical change is great03:58
BurgundaviaOk, I see one major issue with lots of late editing: tranlations03:59
Burgundaviabut i haven't seen anything regarding our contact with the translation people03:59
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froudluckily in this doc it is not the case04:02
Burgundaviawhat do you mean?04:02
froudmean about what04:04
Burgundavialuckily in this doc it is not the case04:04
froudwell we have maily just captured the main screen04:04
froudin startup state04:04
froudbut in some docs a specific state can complicate issues04:05
Burgundaviafrom what I understand of other places, after string freeze, the translators kick into high gear04:05
froudyes, but an png does not involve a string change04:06
BurgundaviaI am referring more to lots of changes to the text04:06
froudyes, but they will translate what there is. 10 words or 10004:07
BurgundaviaI understand your issues with late changes. I just don't see them as such a huge issue. I see translation as a far bigger one04:07
froudthe only way to improve the translation process is to apply Simplified English04:08
froudby you dont want to go there04:08
froudunless you have a good team04:08
BurgundaviaI didn't say I did04:08
BurgundaviaWhat I did say was that a shorter words tends to be easier to translate04:08
Burgundaviaand so does a shorter sentence04:09
froudWhen writing it is better to concerntrate on clarity04:09
froudnot what will the translator have to do04:09
froudTranslation is only made easier by using simplified english04:10
froudwhat makes translation hard is grammar04:10
Burgundaviabut I think, IMHO, that that fails to look at the bigger picture of Linux as mulit-lingual. You want to look at both04:10
froudNo you want to focus on your audience04:10
Burgundaviawhich is multi-lingual04:11
froudtranlations manages just fine04:11
BurgundaviaI see the ubuntu audience as multi-lingual mostly non-techy people04:11
froudThe language is not the object04:11
froudthe audience is04:11
froudhow translations does it is thier concern04:12
froudand to date I see they do a good job04:12
froudthe translation process is largely automated04:13
froudit's just the grammar that needs human checking04:13
froudaltough, over time, translation memories do get very accurate04:13
froudthey are not perfect04:13
froudin every instance04:13
BurgundaviaNo, we need to facilitate them, by simplifying our language (by which I also include grammar).04:13
BurgundaviaAlso simpler language helps our target audience of non-techies04:14
froudThen they only way to help is use Simplified English04:14
froudThe problem with our audience is that more explaining is required as apposed to less04:14
froudthe more technical the audience the less you need to say04:14
froudAs Winston Churchill sais, "Sorry I wrote such a long letter, I did not have enough time to write a short one."04:15
BurgundaviaBut we really don't need to explain how things work. We just need to explain how to do it04:15
BurgundaviaThere are lots of docs for those who need to know things work04:15
froudThe idea behind quick guide was to say what things are04:16
Burgundaviainsert how before things in my last statment04:16
froudin some places authors add ideas how they may be used04:16
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froudAnyway this is going off topic04:17
froudbtw. I do like the fact that together we bring bradth of perfective to the team04:18
froudwe may not agree but at least there is a good side04:19
froudwe are both over powering types04:19
froudwe say what we think and feel04:19
froudand that is a good thing to some extent04:20
froudso please know that I do respect and appreciate the effort you are putting in and the ideas you are raising04:20
BurgundaviaIt is good to have someone to check me sometimes04:22
froudlikewise ;-)04:23
froudand that is the strength of open-source04:23
BurgundaviaYou come from the traditional way of writing docs, which can be a very good thing04:24
BurgundaviaI come from the rough and tumble, every edits everything, WP04:24
froudwhat is the traditional way :-)04:24
BurgundaviaBig monolithic docs04:24
froudGNOME once worked like that04:24
BurgundaviaWell organized04:24
froudnot really04:25
BurgundaviaWith things like cutoff dates and the like04:25
BurgundaviaI say work until the very last minute04:25
froudWell once GNOME was a free for all and it was a mess04:25
froudI must go there is a GNOME party tonight and I am already late04:26
froudnice chatting04:26
Burgundaviafree for all edit != free for all organization04:26
Burgundaviais 7am and I haven't slept yet04:26
froudyeah you must be dead04:26
froudb c'ing ya04:26
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KinnisonBurgundavia: GO. TO. BED.04:47
mdke_schoolhi kinnison04:50
mdke_schooli haven't met you yet04:50
mdke_schoolmy name's matt04:50
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mdke_schoolyeah i saw04:52
mdke_schoolsorry to have moved your wiki ;p04:52
mdke_schooli reparented your wiki04:52
BurgundaviaKinnison: but in bed you get no hacking done04:53
mdke_schoolhope you don't mind04:53
mdke_schoolBurgundavia, sleeeeeep04:53
KinnisonBurgundavia: go to bed; or I'll take you there myself and you won't enjoy that04:53
Kinnisonmdke_school: Not at all04:53
Burgundaviahey, I only said I would be the cameraman04:53
KinnisonBurgundavia: exactly :-(04:54
Burgundaviaah poor you04:54
Burgundaviadoesn't look like I am coming to aussieland04:55
Burgundaviaunless you can convince your employer otherwise04:55
=== Kinnison glances to his right
Kinnisondoubt it04:55
BurgundaviaI haven't done enough for Ubuntu due to extended non-internetness04:55
=== Kinnison nods
Burgundaviaare you in London right now?04:56
mdke_schoolyay for london04:56
mdke_schoollondon is great04:57
Burgundaviamatt, where are you?04:57
mdke_schoolat school in holborn, london04:59
mdke_schooli read your discussion about editing docs05:00
mdke_schooltricky question05:00
Burgundaviawhich of many?05:00
Burgundaviathe recent one?05:01
BurgundaviaI seem to exist currently to challenge people05:01
mdke_schooldiscussions are good05:01
mdke_schoolas Mill would have said05:02
mdke_schoolhe might have put it even better actually05:02
BurgundaviaKinnison can vouch for the fact that I am not stark raving mad in person05:02
mdke_schoolthe philosopher guy05:02
mdke_schoolanyway, yes, the recent one05:02
BurgundaviaJohn Stuart Mill (1806-1873)05:03
Burgundaviathis one05:03
KinnisonBurgundavia: you're not?05:03
BurgundaviaKinnison: HEY!05:03
KinnisonBurgundavia: did you send a stand-in to the ubuntu conference?05:03
BurgundaviaI expected support!05:04
KinnisonBurgundavia: You only want to be the cameraman and you expect support?05:05
mdke_schoolok i have to go do some work05:05
mdke_schoolback later05:05
Burgundaviaalright, I go sleep now05:07
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abellihow can i htmlize a man page?09:19
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abellienrico: can you help?09:32
abellihow can i htmlize a man page?09:32
enricoabelli: something like groff -man -Thtml09:32
abellienrico: unbelievable as ever.09:33
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