[01:21] <Burgundavia> we have an issue with the quickguide
[01:21] <Burgundavia> my latest patch borked it
[01:21] <Burgundavia> I think
[02:13] <mdke_laptop> anyone here?
[02:14] <mdke_laptop> can wikis have multiple parents?
[02:20] <Burgundavia> I believe so
[02:20] <Burgundavia> I would try it with some test pages
[02:20] <mdke_laptop> i asked in #devel
[02:20] <mdke_laptop> mdz said not
[02:21] <mdke_laptop> i can't find an option to do it
[02:21] <mdke_laptop> sucks big time
[02:23] <Burgundavia> I think parenting is very counter intuitive, and shouuld be scrapped for a more flexible system
[02:24] <mdke_laptop> yeah agreed
[02:24] <mdke_laptop> who decides these things?
[02:25] <mdke_laptop> is it a software limitation?
[02:25] <Burgundavia> yes, it is a software limitation
[02:25] <Burgundavia> the version of wiki software we use doesn't have a lot of useful features
[02:25] <mdke_laptop> hmm
[02:25] <mdke_laptop> who deals with this?
[02:26] <Burgundavia> about hacking the wiki? talk to mdz
[02:26] <Burgundavia> have you ever edited wikipedia?
[02:26] <mdke_laptop> no
[02:26] <mdke_laptop> is it good?
[02:27] <Burgundavia> their wiki software has things called categories
[02:27] <mdke_laptop> i read it quite often when i want to know something
[02:27] <Burgundavia> and watchlists
[02:27] <mdke_laptop> hmm
[02:27] <Burgundavia> categories are similar to parenting in concept
[02:27] <Burgundavia> by a page can be part of multiple categories
[02:28] <Burgundavia> I personally think that mediawiki(the wiki engine that Wp runs on) is one of the most advanced and that we should either use it or steal its features
[02:28] <mdke_laptop> i'm gonna post an inquisitive message on the list and see if people will discuss it
[02:29] <mdke_laptop> shall we try and drag mdz in here to discuss it?
[02:29] <mdke_laptop> he looks busy
[02:30] <Burgundavia> I posted something to the list about switching to the wiki as primary source
[02:30] <mdke_laptop> Burgundavia, what's your real name?
[02:30] <Burgundavia> Corey Burger
[02:30] <mdke_laptop> oh sorry
[02:30] <Burgundavia> why?
[02:30] <mdke_laptop> well i could have done a whois
[02:30] <mdke_laptop> forced you to type more than necessary ;)
[02:30] <Burgundavia> the meeting at the end of this week will cover that and much more
[02:30] <Burgundavia> np
[02:30] <mdke_laptop> ok
[02:31] <mdke_laptop> i'll come to the meeting because i'm keen on helping out with the wiki
[02:31] <Burgundavia> I suspect that I am outnumbered regarding the wiki as primary source idea
[02:31] <mdke_laptop> what do you mean?
[02:31] <Burgundavia> I want to drive all our docs out of a wiki. No svn
[02:32] <Burgundavia> and change primarily over to writing task-based howtos
[02:32] <Burgundavia> which is what most people really need, IMHO
[02:32] <mdke_laptop> what is svn
[02:32] <mdke_laptop> excuse my ignorance
[02:32] <Burgundavia> subversion
[02:32] <Burgundavia> revision control system
[02:32] <mdke_laptop> i'm not sure you would be in the minority
[02:33] <Burgundavia> http://subversion.tigris.org/
[02:33] <mdke_laptop> the ubuntu docs are in a bit of a state
[02:33] <mdke_laptop> there are too many sources
[02:33] <Burgundavia> yes, we have quickguide, userguide and faqguide
[02:33] <Burgundavia> I was thinking that we should get ubuntuguide.org and turn that into our wiki
[02:33] <mdke_laptop> hmm
[02:33] <mdke_laptop> people would revolt
[02:33] <Burgundavia> faqguide is from ubuntuguide.org
[02:33] <mdke_laptop> but i tell ya something
[02:34] <mdke_laptop> gentoo has no wiki
[02:34] <mdke_laptop> and it has the best docs i've ever seen
[02:34] <mdke_laptop> website howtos + forum. full stop
[02:34] <Burgundavia> wikis allow a very low barrier to entry
[02:35] <Burgundavia> I just took a quick skim through the gentoo stuff
[02:35] <mdke_laptop> it's not so much the wiki format i dislike, but the fact that docs are impossible to find, and there are so many sources
[02:36] <Burgundavia> yes, I agree that they are good docs
[02:36] <mdke_laptop> i can't tell you about the content
[02:36] <Burgundavia> but they are targeted at a different group of users
[02:36] <mdke_laptop> but the structure is good
[02:36] <mdke_laptop> hmm
[02:36] <Burgundavia> ubuntu-->average user
[02:36] <mdke_laptop> yeah good point
[02:36] <Burgundavia> gentoo-->power user
[02:36] <mdke_laptop> but i think for average users
[02:36] <Burgundavia> there are currently very few good docs for the average user
[02:36] <mdke_laptop> the local stuff is the most important thing
[02:37] <mdke_laptop> you know those guides you guys are working on
[02:37] <mdke_laptop> quickguide
[02:37] <Burgundavia> yes, the quickguide is a good step
[02:37] <mdke_laptop> that is all they need
[02:37] <Burgundavia> not really
[02:37] <Burgundavia> quickguide is program based, not taskbased
[02:37] <mdke_laptop> oh
[02:37] <Burgundavia> it tells you about Evolution, not how to send an email
[02:37] <mdke_laptop> i c
[02:37] <mdke_laptop> so what tells you how to send an email?
[02:37] <Burgundavia> nothing currently
[02:37] <Burgundavia> see the prob?
[02:38] <mdke_laptop> lol
[02:38] <mdke_laptop> shit
[02:38] <Burgundavia> That is where a wiki comes in
[02:38] <Burgundavia> small, easy to digest docs
[02:38] <mdke_laptop> yes
[02:38] <Burgundavia> able to edit easily
[02:38] <Burgundavia> keep very well organized
[02:38] <mdke_laptop> well i will try and help out with the wikis cos they are in a mess
[02:38] <Burgundavia> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=15
[02:38] <Burgundavia> that is the faq forum
[02:39] <Burgundavia> that stuff should be a in a wiki
[02:39] <mdke_laptop> hmm
[02:39] <mdke_laptop> that's exactly what gentoo do
[02:39] <mdke_laptop> http://www.gentoo-wiki.com gets the well developed forum tips and tricks topics
[02:40] <Burgundavia> that is mediawiki, if you care to know
[02:40] <mdke_laptop> you know i'm not much of a geek, but I can easily work on turning that stuff into wikis
[02:40] <Burgundavia> I hate the current wiki
[02:40] <mdke_laptop> but the wiki needs to be made accessible for users. The frontpage is about as useful as a kick in the head
[02:40] <Burgundavia> I am a heavy WP editor, and I miss all the really nice stuff about mediawiki
[02:41] <Burgundavia> there is a front page redesign in the works
[02:41] <Burgundavia> we need the front page to point to a doc portal
[02:41] <Burgundavia> like that gentoo page
[02:41] <mdke_laptop> oh
[02:41] <mdke_laptop> who works on the frontpage?
[02:42] <Burgundavia> there was a contest that just finished to redesign the front page. I believe that somebody from canonical is working on it now
[02:43] <mdke_laptop> i mean the wiki/FrontPage
[02:43] <mdke_laptop> not the main website
[02:43] <Burgundavia> oh
[02:43] <Burgundavia> That would be us
[02:43] <mdke_laptop> ok cool
[02:43] <mdke_laptop> i wanna help
[02:44] <Burgundavia> cut loose
[02:44] <mdke_laptop> yay
[02:44] <Burgundavia> it is a wiki, that is the point
[02:44] <mdke_laptop> the wiki frontpage has been redesigned a couple of times
[02:45] <Burgundavia> what we need is to break the actual docs away from the talking about docs stuff
[02:46] <mdke_laptop> heh
[02:46] <mdke_laptop> what do you have in mind when you say that?
[02:46] <Burgundavia> I propose we try and get ubuntuguide.org to the offical docs
[02:46] <Burgundavia> and we leave the wiki on ubuntu.com for talking about docs
[02:46] <mdke_laptop> what do you mean by talking about docs?
[02:46] <Burgundavia> there are already a lot of links to ubuntuguide.org, so it would be fairly transparent
[02:47] <Burgundavia> the backend chatter between the doc team members
[02:47] <mdke_laptop> oh
[02:47] <mdke_laptop> well that must be like 1% of the wiki
[02:47] <Burgundavia> like this irc channel
[02:48] <mdke_laptop> well i suppose the idea is that things get pushed into the official guides when they are mature enough
[02:48] <Burgundavia> yes
[02:48] <Burgundavia> but if we make the wiki the offical stuff, then we don't have to worry about "pushing stuff into the offical docs when they are mature"
[02:49] <mdke_laptop> i found a dud link in the wiki/FrontPage today, and can't find the relevant document. Can i just remove it? its' quite a prominent link
[02:49] <mdke_laptop> Burgundavia, i thought you said you wanted to cut docs out of the wiki?
[02:50] <Burgundavia> by cut I mean I want to create out of the wiki for the local desktop
[02:50] <mdke_laptop> but continue using the wiki for developing?
[02:50] <Burgundavia> The wiki would be the primary source still
[02:51] <Burgundavia> we would just ship some of the howtos locally so those who have crap internet connections can still view them
[02:51] <mdke_laptop> right
[02:51] <mdke_laptop> but they would continue to be edited online?
[02:51] <Burgundavia> mdke: regarding editing the wiki, the WP motto is "be bold". I like that
[02:51] <mdke_laptop> really?
[02:51] <mdke_laptop> WP is so good
[02:51] <mdke_laptop> why don't more people muck it up?
[02:51] <Burgundavia> mdke: We would probably freeze the stable stuff, so that it can be translated
[02:52] <Burgundavia> they do, but most of the time it gets caught be people who actually want to create an encyclopedia
[02:52] <Burgundavia> and reverted
[02:52] <Burgundavia> people like me
[02:52] <mdke_laptop> editors?
[02:52] <mdke_laptop> we could do with editors
[02:53] <Burgundavia> there are 3 classes of people at wp
[02:53] <Burgundavia> editors -- everybody
[02:53] <Burgundavia> admins -- who can delete pages and ban people
[02:54] <Burgundavia> bureaucrats -- who can do some more things
[02:55] <mdke_laptop> right
[02:55] <mdke_laptop> i c
[02:55] <mdke_laptop> yeah my use of "editors" was misplaced
[02:58] <Burgundavia> anyway, it should be an interesting meeting
[02:58] <mdke_laptop> yeah i will come and try and contribute
[02:58] <mdke_laptop> is there a search tool on the wiki?
[02:59] <Burgundavia> not that i know of
[02:59] <Burgundavia> another flaw
[02:59] <mdke_laptop> yeah that is shocking
[03:00] <Burgundavia> the wiki is shockingly neglected
[03:01] <mdke_laptop> ok consider me onboard
[03:02] <mdke_laptop> name's matt btw
[03:02] <mdke_laptop> nice to meet ya
[03:02] <Burgundavia> likewise
[03:05] <mdke_laptop> oh there is a search
[03:05] <mdke_laptop> just not advertised
[03:05] <mdke_laptop> oh it is advertised
[03:05] <mdke_laptop> DOH!
[03:06] <Burgundavia> yah, I just saw it as well
[03:07] <mdke_laptop> the "installing ubuntu" link on the Frontpage is a dud link
[03:07] <mdke_laptop> shame
[03:13] <Burgundavia> i just sent an email to owner of ubuntuguide.org to see if he might be receptive to putting a wiki there
[03:14] <mdke_laptop> you mean to replace the original one?
[03:14] <Burgundavia> the current site is static warty stuff
[03:15] <mdke_laptop> yeah i mean a wiki on ubuntuguide to replace the wiki on ubuntu.com?
[03:15] <mdke_laptop> on in addition to?
[03:15] <mdke_laptop> *or
[03:17] <mdke_laptop> oh sorry, i'm beginning to understand what you were proposing earlier now
[03:17] <Burgundavia> ubuntu wiki -- for dev stuff, of all stripes, not just doc
[03:17] <mdke_laptop> Burgundavia, you might end up setting up a site in competition with the ubuntu.com site, given that that site has an official docs section too
[03:17] <Burgundavia> ubuntuguide - where users go for info
[03:17] <mdke_laptop> hmm
[03:17] <mdke_laptop> but users might also go to ubuntu.com/support/documentation
[03:18] <Burgundavia> the stuff on ubuntu.com would be migrated
[03:18] <Burgundavia> we control everything on ubuntu.com
[03:18] <mdke_laptop> hmm
[03:18] <Burgundavia> thus all those would be pointed to ubuntuguide.org
[03:18] <mdke_laptop> even the non-wiki stuff?
[03:18] <Burgundavia> yes
[03:18] <mdke_laptop> ok now this is sounding like a really good idea
[03:18] <Burgundavia> absolutely everything would go into the wiki, in an organized fashion
[03:18] <Burgundavia> one source
[03:18] <Burgundavia> one place
[03:18] <mdke_laptop> reduce the number of different sites
[03:19] <Burgundavia> one doc to rule them all
[03:19] <mdke_laptop> lol
[03:19] <mdke_laptop> to bind them
[03:19] <mdke_laptop> i will support this idea
[03:19] <Burgundavia> and find them in the night
[03:19] <mdke_laptop> heh
[03:19] <Burgundavia> now we just need to get the stuck in the mud docbook users to sign on
[03:19] <mdke_laptop> but the local docbook stuff would continue i guess
[03:20] <mdke_laptop> i don't know much about docbook
[03:20] <mdke_laptop> but presumably the local and online docs could both use that format
[03:20] <Burgundavia> yes, for hoary, but for hoary+1, all wiki, with shipped html/pdf
[03:21] <mdke_laptop> hmm
[03:21] <mdke_laptop> and what about when grumpy is released?
[03:23] <Burgundavia> grumpy is going be a rolling unstable, from what I understand
[03:23] <mdke_laptop> oh
[03:23] <mdke_laptop> interesting
[03:24] <mdke_laptop> ok i'm gonna sleep
[03:24] <mdke_laptop> cya again
[03:24] <Burgundavia> there is no "official" codename for the next release
[03:24] <Burgundavia> cya
[03:24] <mdke_laptop> nite
[06:20] <froud> African Greetings
[08:47] <Burgundavia> hey
[12:27] <Burgundavia> new patch to the list now
[03:14] <Burgundavia> where is it?
[03:15] <froud> System > About Ubuntu
[03:15] <froud> Burgundavia: we need to hash out some work procedures
[03:15] <Burgundavia> no, where is the doc to work on?\
[03:15] <froud> I know people were apposed to this previously
[03:16] <Burgundavia> flesh your idea out please
[03:16] <froud> Burgundavia: the doc is done it is packaged in ubuntu-doc
[03:16] <froud> work procedure
[03:16] <froud> people didn't want hem
[03:16] <froud> but I think we do
[03:16] <Burgundavia> yes, rules tend to be constricting unless done right
[03:16] <froud> I noticed that you are fixing things that once were not broke
[03:16] <froud> this is notgood
[03:17] <Burgundavia> ok
[03:17] <Burgundavia> I understood string freeze to be this friday
[03:17] <froud> all thos Not instead of not
[03:17] <froud> dunno 
[03:17] <froud> well see
[03:17] <Burgundavia> is Not correct english?
[03:17] <Burgundavia> I personally have never seen it written
[03:17] <froud> true but in prior version it was not
[03:18] <Burgundavia> hmm?
[03:18] <froud> thi smeans it has creaped in
[03:18] <froud> mainly because of large patches
[03:18] <Burgundavia> it was in the doc that I first pulled down
[03:18] <froud> In a previous revision it was written "not"
[03:19] <Burgundavia> very odd
[03:19] <froud> somebody did an autoreplace and the patch was applied
[03:19] <Burgundavia> for Not?
[03:19] <froud> seems like it
[03:20] <froud> anyway
[03:20] <froud> I think we need to focus on topics
[03:20] <froud> make small patches
[03:20] <froud> especially at late stages in the revision steps
[03:20] <Burgundavia> I intend to, however, I don't have access right now to svn, and that is being worked on
[03:20] <froud> sure
[03:20] <Burgundavia> Do you have a major objection to the stuff I am doing?
[03:20] <froud> then the best is to do change, create patch, then revert
[03:21] <froud> then do new change, create patch, revert
[03:21] <froud> I know it's a bitch
[03:21] <froud> It's not your fault
[03:21] <froud> look in the begin of a doc large patches are needed
[03:21] <Burgundavia> well, I intend to wait until I get access, or until that patch I sent to the list gets applied before I do some more stuff
[03:22] <froud> but near the end I think small ones are safer
[03:22] <froud> I applied it
[03:23] <froud> It was a good patch and in this case needed to be one patch not many patches
[03:23] <froud> Anything that is a global replace of the same thing should be a single patch
[03:23] <Burgundavia> But the langage stuff, you haven't seen anything that causes you issues?
[03:24] <froud> anything that is a specific text edit should be a single patch
[03:24] <froud> No your patches are good
[03:24] <froud> the only thing with some of your changes was that they were intrusive to the paragragh of the original author
[03:25] <froud> However, if something is a grammar, punctuation or spelling change it was in order
[03:25] <Burgundavia> I don't think I understand
[03:25] <froud> In principle somebody wrote a para
[03:26] <froud> in some cases you have rewritten the para to your own taste
[03:26] <froud> and made shorter
[03:26] <froud> I did not always agree
[03:26] <Burgundavia> Is it an issue to be rewritting other peoples stuff?
[03:26] <froud> dunno if others feel the same
[03:26] <froud> to a degree yes
[03:26] <Burgundavia> Ok, 2 points
[03:27] <froud> ok
[03:27] <Burgundavia> 1. It is Ubuntu doc stuff, not there personal stuff. Not to be mean, but we are writing collective stuff
[03:27] <froud> next
[03:28] <Burgundavia> 2. There is some, IMHO, very bloated sentences. Shorter is generally better, both in sentences and words, as it is easier to translate
[03:28] <froud> 1. because it is collective stuff we must respect the method that one author uses to explain something.
[03:28] <froud> If the author says please review
[03:28] <froud> then it is open to edit
[03:29] <Burgundavia> But who is to judge that something is finished?
[03:29] <froud> however, if it has gone through review then it should only get changes that are spelling, grammar, or punctuation
[03:29] <Burgundavia> I happen to like this line from WP: If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, do not submit it.
[03:30] <froud> In general deciding waht gets closed is not formal yet. This is one of my other points for work
[03:30] <froud> We dont have a person acting as  editor
[03:31] <Burgundavia> You see, I think that we should hack apart anything anybody writes if you think you can write it better.
[03:31] <froud> I think as the team forms we need to appoint one or two editors
[03:31] <Burgundavia> I completely disagree
[03:31] <froud> Burgundavia: you are not being sensitive to certain human issues
[03:31] <Burgundavia> I dislike that cathedral method of doing things
[03:31] <Burgundavia> Ok, sorry
[03:32] <Burgundavia> I have been up a very many hours
[03:32] <Burgundavia> However, what I really care about is good, easy to read docs at the end of the day
[03:32] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: have you been to sleep yet?
[03:32] <Burgundavia> Kinnison: nope
[03:32] <Burgundavia> Kinnison: well, since we last talked, yes
[03:32] <Kinnison> dude; get your body clock fixed
[03:32] <froud> you need to take into consideration that what is good to you may not be good to another
[03:32] <Burgundavia> I totally understand that
[03:33] <froud> Some people contribute because they get to see their text in the doc
[03:33] <Burgundavia> so do I
[03:34] <froud> yes but you arrive late and then hate the shit out of what others did
[03:34] <Burgundavia> It is much easier to rip apart something after it has been done
[03:34] <froud> that's not on imho
[03:34] <froud> and may cause people to say well why should I bother if this is going to happen
[03:34] <Burgundavia> I happen to think that the quickguide is a really cool idea and 95% is well written
[03:34] <froud> and you endup doing it by yourself
[03:35] <froud> what I am saying is add value and fix, but leave others taste in tact
[03:35] <froud> there are many things I would like to have rewritten
[03:35] <froud> but I do  not
[03:35] <Burgundavia> but what if add value involves removing what I think are redundant words?
[03:35] <froud> there are many of your things I want to change
[03:35] <froud> I do not
[03:35] <Burgundavia> then change them
[03:35] <froud> so when does it stop
[03:35] <Burgundavia> I have no emotional attachment to anything I have written
[03:36] <Burgundavia> at string freeze
[03:36] <froud> what I am saying is at this stage it is not the time to add your flare
[03:36] <froud> or opinion to how someting should or should not be said
[03:36] <Burgundavia> I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding about what I am trying to do
[03:37] <froud> I understand what you are doing and really I   appreciate the efforttttt
[03:37] <froud> I just ask for you to be sensitive to others
[03:37] <Burgundavia> Ok, now I feel like screaming
[03:37] <Burgundavia> If none of us ever edit each others stuff, then the docs will go nowhere
[03:37] <froud> as a collective effort this kind of consideration is required I think
[03:38] <Burgundavia> The evolutionary process of writing works very well
[03:38] <froud> there is edit and there is rewrite
[03:38] <froud> After the release please hash it to hearts content
[03:38] <froud> Burgundavia: you see you came in late
[03:38] <Burgundavia> I realize that
[03:38] <froud> and your changes , some of them , are good
[03:39] <froud> but some of them are not IMHO
[03:39] <Burgundavia> then revert the ones you don't like
[03:39] <froud> hard when it is in one patch and besides
[03:39] <froud> I have other stuff to do
[03:40] <froud> if we constantly go changing what we wrote it becomes a cycle that is hard to break
[03:40] <Burgundavia> Yes, we are very close to release. I realize that
[03:40] <Burgundavia> However, we are NOT yet at string freeze
[03:40] <froud> because we are working in the bazaar model
[03:40] <froud> we need to take consideration of the other writers
[03:40] <Burgundavia> we should not be wasting time that could be valuably spent tweaking docs to make them flow better
[03:41] <froud> matters of opinion and taste are done at review stages
[03:41] <Burgundavia> this is the review stage
[03:41] <froud> not at complete
[03:41] <Burgundavia> every second of every day is the review stage
[03:41] <froud> no status="complete"
[03:41] <Burgundavia> until string freeze
[03:41] <froud> only changes should be gramatic err, spelling or punctuation 
[03:41] <Burgundavia> for me status != complete until string freeze
[03:42] <froud> we are going to find it hard to work with one another then
[03:42] <froud> as I said before
[03:42] <froud> there are things other authors have written
[03:42] <froud> that I myself want to change
[03:42] <froud> I have not done so
[03:43] <Burgundavia> I recognize that
[03:43] <froud> I have limited my edit to spelling, grammar and punctuation
[03:43] <froud> not my own opinion of what is better
[03:43] <Burgundavia> I find that attitude very puzzling
[03:43] <froud> please dont get me wrong, I respect your efforst
[03:43] <froud> efforts
[03:44] <Burgundavia> I absolutely respect the other authors, but I expect my stuff to be edited. Some times the words just come, and sometimes they dont
[03:45] <froud> yes, but if another person explains something, and it can be understood, leave it be at this late stage
[03:45] <froud> If you feel however that you have something to add, then do so.
[03:45] <froud> naturally this may require modification of the autors text
[03:45] <froud> but try make it less intrusive at this late stage
[03:46] <Burgundavia> But sometimes in order to add to the greater understanding, removal is good
[03:46] <froud> Yes but you have this approach as blanket
[03:47] <froud> sometimes what you wanted to say could have been added without deleting what was already written
[03:47] <froud> sometimes you replace the original authors point with another point that you think to be more important
[03:47] <froud> consider that a few people have been reding these docs
[03:47] <froud> reading
[03:47] <froud> you are comming in at a later stage
[03:48] <froud> if the text is what it is at this time then perhaps people are happy with it
[03:48] <froud> sometimes a radical change is required
[03:49] <froud> for example I misunderstood sudo and you did an excellentfix to it
[03:49] <froud> and you were right to
[03:49] <froud> because it was technically incorrect
[03:49] <froud> so what I am saying is the degree of intrusion depends on the problem
[03:50] <Burgundavia> Ok, I have just posted something to the list regarding this
[03:50] <froud> Ok
[03:50] <Burgundavia> I am interested to see what other people think
[03:50] <Burgundavia> See, I couldn't disagree with you more on the what to edit points
[03:50] <froud> Ok
[03:50] <froud> OK we can agree to disagree
[03:52] <Burgundavia> For the future, I gather you would like it if I just left anything marked complete alone?
[03:52] <froud> At late stage in development it is good to limit to spelling, grammar and punctuation
[03:52] <froud> early stages are much as you describe in your email
[03:53] <froud> but at some point we must stabilize
[03:53] <froud> as I said, remember for the pass few months at least five other people have been reviewing
[03:56] <Burgundavia> see, I would say that there is always room for one more set of eyeballs
[03:57] <froud> many eyeballs is good
[03:57] <froud> what action they take at what stage is the issue
[03:57] <froud> there are a million ways something can be explained
[03:58] <froud> put 10 people in a room and each will explain it differently
[03:58] <froud> all are right
[03:58] <froud> and at a certain stage in the development radical change is great
[03:59] <Burgundavia> Ok, I see one major issue with lots of late editing: tranlations
[03:59] <Burgundavia> but i haven't seen anything regarding our contact with the translation people
[04:02] <froud> luckily in this doc it is not the case
[04:02] <Burgundavia> what do you mean?
[04:04] <froud> mean about what
[04:04] <Burgundavia> luckily in this doc it is not the case
[04:04] <froud> well we have maily just captured the main screen
[04:04] <froud> in startup state
[04:05] <froud> but in some docs a specific state can complicate issues
[04:05] <Burgundavia> from what I understand of other places, after string freeze, the translators kick into high gear
[04:06] <froud> yes, but an png does not involve a string change
[04:06] <Burgundavia> I am referring more to lots of changes to the text
[04:07] <froud> yes, but they will translate what there is. 10 words or 100
[04:07] <Burgundavia> I understand your issues with late changes. I just don't see them as such a huge issue. I see translation as a far bigger one
[04:08] <froud> the only way to improve the translation process is to apply Simplified English
[04:08] <froud> by you dont want to go there
[04:08] <froud> unless you have a good team
[04:08] <Burgundavia> I didn't say I did
[04:08] <Burgundavia> What I did say was that a shorter words tends to be easier to translate
[04:09] <Burgundavia> and so does a shorter sentence
[04:09] <froud> When writing it is better to concerntrate on clarity
[04:09] <froud> not what will the translator have to do
[04:10] <froud> Translation is only made easier by using simplified english
[04:10] <froud> what makes translation hard is grammar
[04:10] <Burgundavia> but I think, IMHO, that that fails to look at the bigger picture of Linux as mulit-lingual. You want to look at both
[04:10] <froud> No you want to focus on your audience
[04:11] <Burgundavia> which is multi-lingual
[04:11] <froud> tranlations manages just fine
[04:11] <Burgundavia> I see the ubuntu audience as multi-lingual mostly non-techy people
[04:11] <froud> The language is not the object
[04:11] <froud> the audience is
[04:12] <froud> how translations does it is thier concern
[04:12] <froud> and to date I see they do a good job
[04:13] <froud> the translation process is largely automated
[04:13] <froud> it's just the grammar that needs human checking
[04:13] <froud> altough, over time, translation memories do get very accurate
[04:13] <froud> they are not perfect
[04:13] <froud> in every instance
[04:13] <Burgundavia> No, we need to facilitate them, by simplifying our language (by which I also include grammar).
[04:14] <Burgundavia> Also simpler language helps our target audience of non-techies
[04:14] <froud> Then they only way to help is use Simplified English
[04:14] <froud> The problem with our audience is that more explaining is required as apposed to less
[04:14] <froud> the more technical the audience the less you need to say
[04:15] <froud> As Winston Churchill sais, "Sorry I wrote such a long letter, I did not have enough time to write a short one."
[04:15] <Burgundavia> But we really don't need to explain how things work. We just need to explain how to do it
[04:15] <froud> said
[04:15] <Burgundavia> There are lots of docs for those who need to know things work
[04:16] <froud> The idea behind quick guide was to say what things are
[04:16] <Burgundavia> insert how before things in my last statment
[04:16] <froud> in some places authors add ideas how they may be used
[04:17] <froud> Anyway this is going off topic
[04:17] <Burgundavia> yes
[04:18] <froud> btw. I do like the fact that together we bring bradth of perfective to the team
[04:19] <froud> breadth
[04:19] <froud> we may not agree but at least there is a good side
[04:19] <froud> :-)
[04:19] <froud> IMHO
[04:19] <froud> we are both over powering types
[04:19] <froud> we say what we think and feel
[04:20] <froud> and that is a good thing to some extent
[04:20] <froud> so please know that I do respect and appreciate the effort you are putting in and the ideas you are raising
[04:22] <Burgundavia> It is good to have someone to check me sometimes
[04:23] <froud> likewise ;-)
[04:23] <froud> and that is the strength of open-source
[04:24] <Burgundavia> You come from the traditional way of writing docs, which can be a very good thing
[04:24] <Burgundavia> I come from the rough and tumble, every edits everything, WP
[04:24] <froud> what is the traditional way :-)
[04:24] <Burgundavia> Big monolithic docs
[04:24] <froud> GNOME once worked like that
[04:24] <Burgundavia> Well organized
[04:25] <froud> not really
[04:25] <Burgundavia> With things like cutoff dates and the like
[04:25] <Burgundavia> I say work until the very last minute
[04:25] <froud> Well once GNOME was a free for all and it was a mess
[04:26] <froud> I must go there is a GNOME party tonight and I am already late
[04:26] <froud> nice chatting
[04:26] <Burgundavia> free for all edit != free for all organization
[04:26] <Burgundavia> hmm
[04:26] <Burgundavia> sleepy
[04:26] <Burgundavia> is 7am and I haven't slept yet
[04:26] <froud> yeah you must be dead
[04:26] <froud> b c'ing ya
[04:26] <Burgundavia> indeed
[04:46] <Burgundavia> hey
[04:47] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: GO. TO. BED.
[04:47] <mdke_school> hi
[04:50] <mdke_school> hi kinnison
[04:50] <mdke_school> i haven't met you yet
[04:50] <mdke_school> my name's matt
[04:52] <mdke_school> yeah i saw
[04:52] <mdke_school> sorry to have moved your wiki ;p
[04:52] <Kinnison> hmm?
[04:52] <mdke_school> i reparented your wiki
[04:53] <Burgundavia> Kinnison: but in bed you get no hacking done
[04:53] <mdke_school> hope you don't mind
[04:53] <mdke_school> Burgundavia, sleeeeeep
[04:53] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: go to bed; or I'll take you there myself and you won't enjoy that
[04:53] <Kinnison> mdke_school: Not at all
[04:53] <mdke_school> :)
[04:53] <mdke_school> kinky
[04:53] <Burgundavia> hey, I only said I would be the cameraman
[04:54] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: exactly :-(
[04:54] <Burgundavia> ah poor you
[04:55] <Burgundavia> doesn't look like I am coming to aussieland
[04:55] <Kinnison> bah
[04:55] <Burgundavia> unless you can convince your employer otherwise
[04:55] <Kinnison> doubt it
[04:55] <Burgundavia> I haven't done enough for Ubuntu due to extended non-internetness
[04:56] <Burgundavia> are you in London right now?
[04:56] <Kinnison> yah
[04:56] <mdke_school> yay for london
[04:57] <mdke_school> london is great
[04:57] <Burgundavia> matt, where are you?
[04:59] <mdke_school> at school in holborn, london
[04:59] <Burgundavia> ah
[05:00] <mdke_school> i read your discussion about editing docs
[05:00] <mdke_school> tricky question
[05:00] <Burgundavia> which of many?
[05:01] <Burgundavia> the recent one?
[05:01] <Burgundavia> I seem to exist currently to challenge people
[05:01] <mdke_school> lol
[05:01] <mdke_school> discussions are good
[05:02] <mdke_school> as Mill would have said
[05:02] <mdke_school> he might have put it even better actually
[05:02] <Burgundavia> Kinnison can vouch for the fact that I am not stark raving mad in person
[05:02] <Burgundavia> Mill?
[05:02] <mdke_school> the philosopher guy
[05:02] <mdke_school> anyway, yes, the recent one
[05:03] <Burgundavia> John Stuart Mill (1806-1873)
[05:03] <Burgundavia> this one
[05:03] <Burgundavia> ?
[05:03] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: you're not?
[05:03] <Burgundavia> Kinnison: HEY!
[05:03] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: did you send a stand-in to the ubuntu conference?
[05:04] <Burgundavia> I expected support!
[05:05] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: You only want to be the cameraman and you expect support?
[05:05] <Kinnison> pah
[05:05] <mdke_school> ok i have to go do some work
[05:05] <mdke_school> back later
[05:05] <Kinnison> cya
[05:07] <Burgundavia> alright, I go sleep now
[09:19] <abelli> allo
[09:19] <abelli> how can i htmlize a man page?
[09:32] <abelli> enrico: can you help?
[09:32] <abelli> how can i htmlize a man page?
[09:32] <enrico> abelli: something like groff -man -Thtml
[09:33] <abelli> enrico: unbelievable as ever.
[09:33] <abelli> grazie