=== Burgundavia [~Burgundav@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:21] we have an issue with the quickguide [01:21] my latest patch borked it [01:21] I think === mdke_laptop [~mdke_lapt@mdke.user] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:13] anyone here? [02:14] can wikis have multiple parents? [02:20] I believe so [02:20] I would try it with some test pages [02:20] i asked in #devel [02:20] mdz said not [02:21] i can't find an option to do it [02:21] sucks big time [02:23] I think parenting is very counter intuitive, and shouuld be scrapped for a more flexible system [02:24] yeah agreed [02:24] who decides these things? [02:25] is it a software limitation? [02:25] yes, it is a software limitation [02:25] the version of wiki software we use doesn't have a lot of useful features [02:25] hmm [02:25] who deals with this? [02:26] about hacking the wiki? talk to mdz [02:26] have you ever edited wikipedia? [02:26] no [02:26] is it good? [02:27] their wiki software has things called categories [02:27] i read it quite often when i want to know something [02:27] and watchlists [02:27] hmm [02:27] categories are similar to parenting in concept [02:27] by a page can be part of multiple categories [02:28] I personally think that mediawiki(the wiki engine that Wp runs on) is one of the most advanced and that we should either use it or steal its features [02:28] i'm gonna post an inquisitive message on the list and see if people will discuss it [02:29] shall we try and drag mdz in here to discuss it? [02:29] he looks busy [02:30] I posted something to the list about switching to the wiki as primary source [02:30] Burgundavia, what's your real name? [02:30] Corey Burger [02:30] oh sorry [02:30] why? [02:30] well i could have done a whois [02:30] forced you to type more than necessary ;) [02:30] the meeting at the end of this week will cover that and much more [02:30] np [02:30] ok [02:31] i'll come to the meeting because i'm keen on helping out with the wiki [02:31] I suspect that I am outnumbered regarding the wiki as primary source idea [02:31] what do you mean? [02:31] I want to drive all our docs out of a wiki. No svn [02:32] and change primarily over to writing task-based howtos [02:32] which is what most people really need, IMHO [02:32] what is svn [02:32] excuse my ignorance [02:32] subversion [02:32] revision control system [02:32] i'm not sure you would be in the minority [02:33] http://subversion.tigris.org/ [02:33] the ubuntu docs are in a bit of a state [02:33] there are too many sources [02:33] yes, we have quickguide, userguide and faqguide [02:33] I was thinking that we should get ubuntuguide.org and turn that into our wiki [02:33] hmm [02:33] people would revolt [02:33] faqguide is from ubuntuguide.org [02:33] but i tell ya something [02:34] gentoo has no wiki [02:34] and it has the best docs i've ever seen [02:34] website howtos + forum. full stop [02:34] wikis allow a very low barrier to entry [02:35] I just took a quick skim through the gentoo stuff [02:35] it's not so much the wiki format i dislike, but the fact that docs are impossible to find, and there are so many sources [02:36] yes, I agree that they are good docs [02:36] i can't tell you about the content [02:36] but they are targeted at a different group of users [02:36] but the structure is good [02:36] hmm [02:36] ubuntu-->average user [02:36] yeah good point [02:36] gentoo-->power user [02:36] but i think for average users [02:36] there are currently very few good docs for the average user [02:36] the local stuff is the most important thing [02:37] you know those guides you guys are working on [02:37] quickguide [02:37] yes, the quickguide is a good step [02:37] that is all they need [02:37] not really [02:37] quickguide is program based, not taskbased [02:37] oh [02:37] it tells you about Evolution, not how to send an email [02:37] i c [02:37] so what tells you how to send an email? [02:37] nothing currently [02:37] see the prob? [02:38] lol [02:38] shit [02:38] That is where a wiki comes in [02:38] small, easy to digest docs [02:38] yes [02:38] able to edit easily [02:38] keep very well organized [02:38] well i will try and help out with the wikis cos they are in a mess [02:38] http://www.ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=15 [02:38] that is the faq forum [02:39] that stuff should be a in a wiki [02:39] hmm [02:39] that's exactly what gentoo do [02:39] http://www.gentoo-wiki.com gets the well developed forum tips and tricks topics [02:40] that is mediawiki, if you care to know [02:40] you know i'm not much of a geek, but I can easily work on turning that stuff into wikis [02:40] I hate the current wiki [02:40] but the wiki needs to be made accessible for users. The frontpage is about as useful as a kick in the head [02:40] I am a heavy WP editor, and I miss all the really nice stuff about mediawiki [02:41] there is a front page redesign in the works [02:41] we need the front page to point to a doc portal [02:41] like that gentoo page [02:41] oh [02:41] who works on the frontpage? [02:42] there was a contest that just finished to redesign the front page. I believe that somebody from canonical is working on it now [02:43] i mean the wiki/FrontPage [02:43] not the main website [02:43] oh [02:43] That would be us [02:43] ok cool [02:43] i wanna help [02:44] cut loose [02:44] yay [02:44] it is a wiki, that is the point [02:44] the wiki frontpage has been redesigned a couple of times [02:45] what we need is to break the actual docs away from the talking about docs stuff [02:46] heh [02:46] what do you have in mind when you say that? [02:46] I propose we try and get ubuntuguide.org to the offical docs [02:46] and we leave the wiki on ubuntu.com for talking about docs [02:46] what do you mean by talking about docs? [02:46] there are already a lot of links to ubuntuguide.org, so it would be fairly transparent [02:47] the backend chatter between the doc team members [02:47] oh [02:47] well that must be like 1% of the wiki [02:47] like this irc channel [02:48] well i suppose the idea is that things get pushed into the official guides when they are mature enough [02:48] yes [02:48] but if we make the wiki the offical stuff, then we don't have to worry about "pushing stuff into the offical docs when they are mature" [02:49] i found a dud link in the wiki/FrontPage today, and can't find the relevant document. Can i just remove it? its' quite a prominent link [02:49] Burgundavia, i thought you said you wanted to cut docs out of the wiki? [02:50] by cut I mean I want to create out of the wiki for the local desktop [02:50] but continue using the wiki for developing? [02:50] The wiki would be the primary source still [02:51] we would just ship some of the howtos locally so those who have crap internet connections can still view them [02:51] right [02:51] but they would continue to be edited online? [02:51] mdke: regarding editing the wiki, the WP motto is "be bold". I like that [02:51] really? [02:51] WP is so good [02:51] why don't more people muck it up? [02:51] mdke: We would probably freeze the stable stuff, so that it can be translated [02:52] they do, but most of the time it gets caught be people who actually want to create an encyclopedia [02:52] and reverted [02:52] people like me [02:52] editors? [02:52] we could do with editors [02:53] there are 3 classes of people at wp [02:53] editors -- everybody [02:53] admins -- who can delete pages and ban people [02:54] bureaucrats -- who can do some more things [02:55] right [02:55] i c [02:55] yeah my use of "editors" was misplaced [02:58] anyway, it should be an interesting meeting [02:58] yeah i will come and try and contribute [02:58] is there a search tool on the wiki? [02:59] not that i know of [02:59] another flaw [02:59] yeah that is shocking [03:00] the wiki is shockingly neglected [03:01] ok consider me onboard [03:02] name's matt btw [03:02] nice to meet ya [03:02] likewise [03:05] oh there is a search [03:05] just not advertised [03:05] oh it is advertised [03:05] DOH! [03:06] yah, I just saw it as well [03:07] the "installing ubuntu" link on the Frontpage is a dud link [03:07] shame [03:13] i just sent an email to owner of ubuntuguide.org to see if he might be receptive to putting a wiki there [03:14] you mean to replace the original one? [03:14] the current site is static warty stuff [03:15] yeah i mean a wiki on ubuntuguide to replace the wiki on ubuntu.com? [03:15] on in addition to? [03:15] *or [03:17] oh sorry, i'm beginning to understand what you were proposing earlier now [03:17] ubuntu wiki -- for dev stuff, of all stripes, not just doc [03:17] Burgundavia, you might end up setting up a site in competition with the ubuntu.com site, given that that site has an official docs section too [03:17] ubuntuguide - where users go for info [03:17] hmm [03:17] but users might also go to ubuntu.com/support/documentation [03:18] the stuff on ubuntu.com would be migrated [03:18] we control everything on ubuntu.com [03:18] hmm [03:18] thus all those would be pointed to ubuntuguide.org [03:18] even the non-wiki stuff? [03:18] yes [03:18] ok now this is sounding like a really good idea [03:18] absolutely everything would go into the wiki, in an organized fashion [03:18] one source [03:18] one place [03:18] reduce the number of different sites [03:19] one doc to rule them all [03:19] lol [03:19] to bind them [03:19] i will support this idea [03:19] and find them in the night [03:19] heh [03:19] now we just need to get the stuck in the mud docbook users to sign on [03:19] but the local docbook stuff would continue i guess [03:20] i don't know much about docbook [03:20] but presumably the local and online docs could both use that format [03:20] yes, for hoary, but for hoary+1, all wiki, with shipped html/pdf [03:21] hmm [03:21] and what about when grumpy is released? [03:23] grumpy is going be a rolling unstable, from what I understand [03:23] oh [03:23] interesting [03:24] ok i'm gonna sleep [03:24] cya again [03:24] there is no "official" codename for the next release [03:24] cya [03:24] nite [06:20] African Greetings === warthylog [~warthylog@port49.ds1-van.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Topic for #ubuntu-doc: Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://irclog.workaround.org | This channel tries to follow the tradition of the #gnome-love channel on irc.gimp.net, all new comers and questions are welcomed, as long as you follow the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct first. === Topic (#ubuntu-doc): set by sivang at Sat Jan 1 20:48:30 2005 === mercurus [~mercurus@PIPP-p-144-134-201-217.prem.tmns.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [~Burgundav@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Kinnison [~dsilvers@haddenham.pepperfish.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:47] hey === abelli [~abelli@host-84-222-39-20.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #ubuntu-doc === egli [~egli@gate.wyona.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === abelli [~abelli@host-84-222-39-20.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mercurus [~mercurus@pipp-p-144-138-229-131.prem.tmns.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === abelli_ [~abelli@host-84-222-39-20.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #ubuntu-doc === sivang [~sivang@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-doc === sivang [~sivang@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-doc === sivang [~sivang@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mercurus [~mercurus@pipp-p-144-138-229-131.prem.tmns.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:27] new patch to the list now === abelli [~abelli@host-84-222-39-20.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mercurus [~mercurus@pipp-p-144-138-229-131.prem.tmns.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud [~froud@ndn-165-131-148.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud [~froud@ndn-165-131-148.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === sivang [~sivang@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud [~froud@ndn-165-131-148.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud [~froud@ndn-165-131-148.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud [~froud@ndn-165-131-148.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud [~froud@ndn-165-131-148.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud [~froud@ndn-165-131-148.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud [~froud@ndn-165-131-148.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === sivang [~sivang@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-doc === sivang [~sivang@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud [~froud@ndn-165-131-148.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud wonders how long it will take before somebody updates the default page of the About Ubuntu option? [03:14] where is it? [03:15] System > About Ubuntu [03:15] Burgundavia: we need to hash out some work procedures [03:15] no, where is the doc to work on?\ [03:15] I know people were apposed to this previously [03:16] flesh your idea out please [03:16] Burgundavia: the doc is done it is packaged in ubuntu-doc [03:16] work procedure [03:16] people didn't want hem [03:16] but I think we do [03:16] yes, rules tend to be constricting unless done right [03:16] I noticed that you are fixing things that once were not broke [03:16] this is notgood [03:17] ok [03:17] I understood string freeze to be this friday [03:17] all thos Not instead of not [03:17] dunno [03:17] well see [03:17] is Not correct english? [03:17] I personally have never seen it written [03:17] true but in prior version it was not [03:18] hmm? [03:18] thi smeans it has creaped in [03:18] mainly because of large patches [03:18] it was in the doc that I first pulled down [03:18] In a previous revision it was written "not" [03:19] very odd [03:19] somebody did an autoreplace and the patch was applied [03:19] for Not? [03:19] seems like it [03:20] anyway [03:20] I think we need to focus on topics [03:20] make small patches [03:20] especially at late stages in the revision steps [03:20] I intend to, however, I don't have access right now to svn, and that is being worked on [03:20] sure [03:20] Do you have a major objection to the stuff I am doing? [03:20] then the best is to do change, create patch, then revert [03:21] then do new change, create patch, revert [03:21] I know it's a bitch [03:21] It's not your fault [03:21] look in the begin of a doc large patches are needed [03:21] well, I intend to wait until I get access, or until that patch I sent to the list gets applied before I do some more stuff [03:22] but near the end I think small ones are safer [03:22] I applied it [03:23] It was a good patch and in this case needed to be one patch not many patches [03:23] Anything that is a global replace of the same thing should be a single patch [03:23] But the langage stuff, you haven't seen anything that causes you issues? [03:24] anything that is a specific text edit should be a single patch [03:24] No your patches are good [03:24] the only thing with some of your changes was that they were intrusive to the paragragh of the original author [03:25] However, if something is a grammar, punctuation or spelling change it was in order [03:25] I don't think I understand [03:25] In principle somebody wrote a para [03:26] in some cases you have rewritten the para to your own taste [03:26] and made shorter [03:26] I did not always agree [03:26] Is it an issue to be rewritting other peoples stuff? [03:26] dunno if others feel the same [03:26] to a degree yes [03:26] Ok, 2 points [03:27] ok [03:27] 1. It is Ubuntu doc stuff, not there personal stuff. Not to be mean, but we are writing collective stuff [03:27] next [03:28] 2. There is some, IMHO, very bloated sentences. Shorter is generally better, both in sentences and words, as it is easier to translate [03:28] 1. because it is collective stuff we must respect the method that one author uses to explain something. [03:28] If the author says please review [03:28] then it is open to edit [03:29] But who is to judge that something is finished? [03:29] however, if it has gone through review then it should only get changes that are spelling, grammar, or punctuation [03:29] I happen to like this line from WP: If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, do not submit it. [03:30] In general deciding waht gets closed is not formal yet. This is one of my other points for work [03:30] We dont have a person acting as editor [03:31] You see, I think that we should hack apart anything anybody writes if you think you can write it better. [03:31] I think as the team forms we need to appoint one or two editors [03:31] I completely disagree [03:31] Burgundavia: you are not being sensitive to certain human issues [03:31] I dislike that cathedral method of doing things [03:31] Ok, sorry [03:32] I have been up a very many hours [03:32] However, what I really care about is good, easy to read docs at the end of the day [03:32] Burgundavia: have you been to sleep yet? [03:32] Kinnison: nope === Kinnison sends Burgundavia to bed with a cocoa [03:32] Kinnison: well, since we last talked, yes [03:32] dude; get your body clock fixed [03:32] you need to take into consideration that what is good to you may not be good to another [03:32] I totally understand that [03:33] Some people contribute because they get to see their text in the doc [03:33] so do I [03:34] yes but you arrive late and then hate the shit out of what others did [03:34] It is much easier to rip apart something after it has been done [03:34] that's not on imho [03:34] and may cause people to say well why should I bother if this is going to happen [03:34] I happen to think that the quickguide is a really cool idea and 95% is well written [03:34] and you endup doing it by yourself [03:35] what I am saying is add value and fix, but leave others taste in tact [03:35] there are many things I would like to have rewritten [03:35] but I do not [03:35] but what if add value involves removing what I think are redundant words? [03:35] there are many of your things I want to change [03:35] I do not [03:35] then change them [03:35] so when does it stop [03:35] I have no emotional attachment to anything I have written [03:36] at string freeze [03:36] what I am saying is at this stage it is not the time to add your flare [03:36] or opinion to how someting should or should not be said [03:36] I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding about what I am trying to do [03:37] I understand what you are doing and really I appreciate the efforttttt [03:37] I just ask for you to be sensitive to others [03:37] Ok, now I feel like screaming [03:37] If none of us ever edit each others stuff, then the docs will go nowhere [03:37] as a collective effort this kind of consideration is required I think [03:38] The evolutionary process of writing works very well [03:38] there is edit and there is rewrite [03:38] After the release please hash it to hearts content [03:38] Burgundavia: you see you came in late [03:38] I realize that [03:38] and your changes , some of them , are good [03:39] but some of them are not IMHO [03:39] then revert the ones you don't like [03:39] hard when it is in one patch and besides [03:39] I have other stuff to do [03:40] if we constantly go changing what we wrote it becomes a cycle that is hard to break [03:40] Yes, we are very close to release. I realize that [03:40] However, we are NOT yet at string freeze [03:40] because we are working in the bazaar model [03:40] we need to take consideration of the other writers [03:40] we should not be wasting time that could be valuably spent tweaking docs to make them flow better [03:41] matters of opinion and taste are done at review stages [03:41] this is the review stage [03:41] not at complete [03:41] every second of every day is the review stage [03:41] no status="complete" [03:41] until string freeze [03:41] only changes should be gramatic err, spelling or punctuation [03:41] for me status != complete until string freeze [03:42] we are going to find it hard to work with one another then [03:42] as I said before [03:42] there are things other authors have written [03:42] that I myself want to change [03:42] I have not done so [03:43] I recognize that [03:43] I have limited my edit to spelling, grammar and punctuation [03:43] not my own opinion of what is better [03:43] I find that attitude very puzzling [03:43] please dont get me wrong, I respect your efforst [03:43] efforts [03:44] I absolutely respect the other authors, but I expect my stuff to be edited. Some times the words just come, and sometimes they dont [03:45] yes, but if another person explains something, and it can be understood, leave it be at this late stage [03:45] If you feel however that you have something to add, then do so. [03:45] naturally this may require modification of the autors text [03:45] but try make it less intrusive at this late stage [03:46] But sometimes in order to add to the greater understanding, removal is good [03:46] Yes but you have this approach as blanket [03:47] sometimes what you wanted to say could have been added without deleting what was already written [03:47] sometimes you replace the original authors point with another point that you think to be more important [03:47] consider that a few people have been reding these docs [03:47] reading [03:47] you are comming in at a later stage [03:48] if the text is what it is at this time then perhaps people are happy with it [03:48] sometimes a radical change is required [03:49] for example I misunderstood sudo and you did an excellentfix to it [03:49] and you were right to [03:49] because it was technically incorrect [03:49] so what I am saying is the degree of intrusion depends on the problem [03:50] Ok, I have just posted something to the list regarding this [03:50] Ok [03:50] I am interested to see what other people think [03:50]