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mdke_laptopnot much of a sleep Burgundavia 01:53
BurgundaviaI got 9 hours01:58
Burgundaviafrom sorry 701:58
Burgundaviafrom 9am to 4pm local01:58
Burgundaviagot the cool new theme?01:58
Burgundaviado you run hoary?01:59
mdke_laptopis the human theme changed?01:59
Burgundaviahave you updated today?01:59
Burgundaviayes, the progress bars are now brown and other cool things01:59
mdke_laptopyes i thought i noticed a difference01:59
BurgundaviaI like it01:59
Burgundaviashould we both with new screenshots?02:00
Burgundaviathings now look different02:00
BurgundaviaI think we can simply leave it02:01
mdke_laptopyou mean bother02:01
mdke_laptopgotcha now02:01
mdke_laptopnah its cool to leave i think02:01
Burgundaviamy typing tends to suck02:01
=== mdke_laptop rubs sand out of Burgundavia 's eyes
Burgundaviawhy are you all trying to take care of me02:02
BurgundaviaI am 22 dammit02:02
mdke_laptopits in my own interests02:02
mdke_laptop22 huh02:02
mdke_laptopi'm 2302:02
mdke_laptopanyhow no offence intended02:03
Burgundavianone taken02:04
Burgundaviait takes a long more than that to offend me02:04
Burgundaviawhat I really like about the new theme is how warm everything became02:06
Burgundaviajust a hint of brown in all the grey02:06
mdke_laptophaven't really noticed the difference yet02:07
mdke_laptoplemme restart some stuff02:07
mdke_laptopthat's better02:07
mdke_laptopits a bit bright02:08
mdke_laptopgood tho02:08
mdke_laptopevolution looks great with it02:11
mdke_laptopok sleep for me02:14
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froudBurgundavia: hi09:55
froudmuch better, now that we are discussing changes09:55
abellimdke: /j irssi09:56
froudpatches look much better too :-)09:57
froudnice small09:58
froudof course it's easier when you have access09:58
BurgundaviaAre you advocating calling them programs or apps?09:59
froudFor GUI they are apps09:59
froudfor DOS/SHELL they are programs09:59
Burgundaviabut to a user that distinction doesn't exist09:59
froudGenral documentation style guides such as that of Sun10:00
frouduse this distinction10:00
BurgundaviaI am saying that almost all users (the great unwashed) use program10:00
Burgundaviathat is our target audience, not power users10:00
froudWindows users call GUI apps Applications10:01
Burgundaviapower users do10:01
froudIts a Windows app10:01
froudnot a windows program10:01
froudits a DOS program10:01
Burgundaviafrom my time in the trenches of helpdesk, I heard the 2nd more often then not10:01
froudthat is the generally accepted convention10:01
BurgundaviaI understand the distinction myself, but I am saying that it doesn't exist in users minds10:02
Burgundavianon-power non-developer users10:02
froudBecause histrorically there was a change in use of terms10:02
froudwe should stay with the change10:02
Burgundaviabut the change is to program10:02
froudAll styleguides make this distinction10:03
froudno the change was from program to app10:03
Burgundaviawhat does not define a language in a style guide10:03
Burgundaviaone defines it in the street, and that I what I hear10:03
froudwhen the windows world came the term program was replaced with application10:03
froudthis is a question of style10:03
froudno authors use styleguides10:04
froudthey are our standards10:04
Burgundaviamaybe in developers minds, but not in users10:05
froudapplication program10:06
froud     n : a program that gives a computer instructions that provide10:06
froud         the user with tools to accomplish a task; "he has tried10:06
froud         several different word processing applications" [syn: application,10:06
froud          applications programme] 10:06
froudThe Free On-line Dictionary of Computing (27 SEP 03) [foldoc] 10:06
froudapplication program10:06
froud        <programming, operating system> (Or "application", "app") A10:07
froud        complete, self-contained program that performs a specific10:07
froud        function directly for the user.  This is in contrast to system10:07
froud        software such as the operating system kernel, server10:07
froud        processes and libraries which exists to support application10:07
froud        programs.10:07
froud        Editors for various kinds of documents, spreadsheets, and10:07
froud        text formatters are common examples of applications.  Network10:07
froud        applications include clients such as those for FTP,10:07
froud        electronic mail, telnet and WWW.10:07
froud        The term is used fairly loosely, for instance, some might say10:07
froud        that a client and server together form a distributed10:07
froud        application, others might argue that editors and compilers10:07
froud        were not applications but tools for building applications.10:08
froud        One distinction between an application program and the10:08
froud        operating system is that applications always run in "user10:08
froud        mode" (or "non-privileged mode"), while operating systems and10:08
froud        related utilities may run in "supervisor mode" (or "privileged10:08
froud        mode").10:08
BurgundaviaI understand what you are saying10:08
froud        The term may also be used to distinguish programs which10:08
froud        communicate via a graphical user interface from those which10:08
froud        are executed from the command line.10:08
froudThe term may also be used to distinguish programs which10:08
froud        communicate via a graphical user interface from those which10:08
froud        are executed from the command line.10:08
froudnot everything need be a debate10:08
BurgundaviaI am doing some digging on places like tucows and download.com10:10
BurgundaviaI have come across 1 entry of app to for every 10-20 of program10:10
froudyou dont give up do you10:10
froudeven when present with std's10:10
frouddo waht every you want10:11
Burgundaviastandards reflect what people say10:11
BurgundaviaI am tenancious10:11
BurgundaviaI don't mean to offend. I am looking to create the best document possible10:12
Burgundaviathat means easy to understand terminology10:12
froudadhere to std create consitant usage and avoid conflict and confusion10:13
BurgundaviaThis another street vs university thing10:13
BurgundaviaI like standards, that reflect common usage10:13
froudand FOLDOC does not10:14
froudso why not just write using colloquial language?10:14
froudLike Howzit dude, hope you are bopping today.  Found Synaptic today, it toatally rocks10:14
Burgundaviathere can be a happy medium10:15
froudwhere is the cut-off point10:15
BurgundaviaI don't think I have explained myself correctly10:15
KinnisonMorning guys10:15
BurgundaviaYou can be simple and consise, using common english words, without descending into street language10:15
froudAs authors of user manual there are known conventions we adhere to10:15
BurgundaviaI am at it again10:16
froudyet another hot debate for your entertainment10:16
froudwell the let's put :-) ;-) :-/10:16
froudinto the docs10:16
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froudwow c flat10:17
froudwhat a note10:17
BurgundaviaI mean that is non-serious sort of way10:17
froudoh please dude, because the majority of people don't know the diff and which is correct does not make it right10:18
froudand that thing is not based on any context10:18
Burgundaviaor how about: http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=application+kills+kittens&word2=program+kills+kittens10:19
BurgundaviaI think it is funny, but no weight10:19
Burgundaviathere is a distinction between a proscritive and a descriptive dictionary10:20
Burgundaviafroud: I follow the will of the doc team. I am merely trying to raise points of debate, in the hopes of asking questions that might not have been asked before10:23
BurgundaviaAt no point am I trying to offend anything that has already been done10:23
Burgundaviamake that anything that anybody has already done10:24
BurgundaviaKinnison: ping10:37
c_Burgundavia: any idea about htmlizing man pages?10:38
BurgundaviaI have never done it, but I imagine there would be tools for it10:38
c_Burgundavia: yeah.. the problem is finding them:(10:39
Burgundaviac_: there is a program in universe called man2html10:40
Burgundaviait seems to generate them on the fly though10:40
c_ive installed it..10:41
c_but i can't find it..10:41
KinnisonBurgundavia: what do you want?10:42
Burgundaviawell I drove froud out of the doc team10:42
Burgundaviaabelli: that will view fedora core 1 pages10:43
abellii n33d the d4rm ion3 man...10:43
abelliBurgundavia: however, many thanks10:43
BurgundaviaI will keep looking10:44
abelliKinnison: any idea?10:44
Kinnisonabelli: about what?10:45
abellihtmlizing man pages.10:46
abelliion3 man page10:49
KinnisonIf you install the man2html package then zcat /usr/share/man/....ion3.?.gz | man2html > /tmp/ion3.html should do the trick10:55
KinnisonThe hyperlinks will be a bit crud; but it should do the trick10:55
abelliKinnison: unbelievable.10:58
abelliKinnison: i owe you a pizza.10:58
Burgundaviadid it work?10:58
Burgundaviahave to remember that10:59
abellidunno, but are you saying that the Master might be wrong?10:59
KinnisonWho is 'the Master' ?11:00
abellithere's a problem..11:00
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abelliive installed man2html's package..11:00
abellibut it's not in PATH11:00
abelliand i can't find it11:00
Burgundaviadpkg will tell you11:01
KinnisonIt *ought* to be /usr/bin/man2html11:01
abellidehiho it works11:02
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KinnisonYou'd better bring it over; I need lunch11:05
abelliKinnison: mm ill coming to london in the near future..11:08
abellibut not now, i'm sorry11:08
Kinnisonabelli: Then when you do; we'll have to meet up and say "hi"11:08
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abellimmm ill be telling u that far earlier ..11:08
abelliwhat package are in ?11:09
abellibtw does someone here know what burning app is going to be "supported" and if so, is it for hoary or h+1?11:11
Burgundaviaabelli: they are talking about gnomebaker and/or graveman11:39
abelliBurgundavia: i sincerely like graveman.. which one is winning?11:40
Burgundaviano idea11:41
abelliBurgundavia: thank you11:41
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ntollI just saw the comments about docs for windows migrators02:31
Burgundaviathat would be me who made it02:31
ntollon the ubuntu-users list02:32
Burgundaviathe 2nd that is02:32
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BurgundaviaKinnison: yep02:32
KinnisonBurgundavia: Dude; seriously; re-set your body clock02:32
ntollyup, I recognise the name02:32
BurgundaviaKinnison: I have ;)02:32
KinnisonBurgundavia: to what timezone?02:32
Burgundaviano idea02:32
ntollBurgundavia, where are you? New Zealand?02:33
Burgundaviawest coast02:33
Burgundavia5:33am here02:33
ntollBurgundavia, aha, that explains it... anyway....02:33
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BurgundaviaI gather you posted the initial stuff to the list?02:33
Kinnisonreset it to :Canada/Pacific02:34
ntollbut I've done something similar for a lug I used to belong to02:34
Burgundaviaright now string freeze is several days away02:34
Burgundaviaa doc like that will have to miss Hoary02:34
Burgundaviabut there is no reason why we couldn't do something on the web02:34
ntollBurgundavia, I quite agree, some sort of wiki like collab tool02:35
Burgundaviaunfortunately, the current ubuntu wiki "could use some work" to say02:35
ntollanyway, I'd be interested in getting involved in helping to write the doc02:35
Burgundaviamost of the pieces are already there02:36
ntollfor the doc or the wiki?02:36
ntollBurgundavia, if the doc where can I find it?02:36
Burgundaviainstall the package quickguide to see our latest work02:36
ntollbrb telephone02:36
Burgundaviamight be ubuntu-quickguide or something02:36
ntollo.k. off the phone now....02:38
ntollis it html?02:38
Burgundaviaso primarly the docs are written in docbook, and parsed in yelp02:39
BurgundaviaI am advocating moving to more web based system02:39
Burgundaviabut a good wiki is needed02:39
Burgundaviaso for the switchers doc02:40
ntollI see02:40
Burgundaviawe have an issue is that in some countries screenshots are copyright the program owner02:40
Burgundaviaie. m$02:40
ntollhmph.... that sucks hard02:41
Burgundaviahowever, we may be able to get away with some sort of 2 screenshots combined together with text over top02:41
Burgundavia1 from each system02:41
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Burgundaviathat would probably be considered a new work, and thus our copyright02:41
ntollwhat about fair use clauses02:41
Burgundaviadon't exist in some countries02:41
egliBurgundavia: why do you want to move away from docbook?02:42
Burgundavialike germany, if I remember correctly02:42
Burgundaviaegli: faster changes, easier changes02:42
ntollhmmm.... so how does everyone else get around it02:42
BurgundaviaTo the best of my knowledge, they just talk about it, without showing it02:42
egliBurgundavia: what about revision control02:43
ntollI mean, any newspaper or magazine that publishes a screenshot02:43
egliwhat about generation of diffrerent output formats?02:43
Burgundaviaegli: froud and I had a long discussion of this02:43
Burgundaviaegli: He raised the same points02:43
eglifroud = Sean 02:43
Burgundaviathey were good points02:43
BurgundaviaI say ship PDF's for those who have internet access with HTML as well02:44
Burgundaviahowever, there is no good HTML to PDF renderer02:44
ntollcan you not just say  All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners.02:44
ntollThe rest  2005 Ubuntu document developers R' US?02:44
egliI like wikis but doku ought to be a little bit formal, i.e. svn + docbook ihmo02:44
Burgundaviaegli: Honestly, why?02:44
Burgundaviantoll: probably, but we would need to get a lawyer check on that02:45
eglii'd like to be able to trace revision history02:45
eglii like to add metadata (which I can do in docbook)02:45
ntollBurgundavia, o.k. so how do I get involved?02:45
Burgundaviaegli: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vancouver_International_Airport&curid=177015&diff=0&oldid=002:45
eglipdf can easily be generated from docbook02:45
Burgundaviantoll: here and on the mailing list ubuntu-dic02:45
enricoBurgundavia: how come you hate DB so much?02:46
BurgundaviaI don't hate it02:46
ntolldicbook :-p02:46
BurgundaviaI just think that there are better ways of developing useful docs02:46
enricoBurgundavia: books?02:46
Burgundaviaenrico: ?02:46
eglibesides gnome is using db for their docu. I think sean had some scheme how this stuff could be reused02:46
enricoI mean, there's surely better ways to write tutorials or HOWTOs.  However, can you think of better ways to write books?02:47
Burgundaviaso is TLDP, Sun, etc.02:47
ntollhave you guys seen silva? (http://www.infrae.com/products/silva) Might that be of use?02:47
Burgundaviabut 95% of what users really need is HOWTOs02:47
egliBurgundavia: yes sure wiki has revisions but it's all web based02:47
ntolla plone based doc store02:47
Burgundaviausers need small bitsized chunks, right now02:48
Burgundaviahow do I check my email02:48
Burgundaviahow do I install a new program02:48
eglintoll: oh man not another weirdo solution when we have one that works02:48
enricoBurgundavia: so 95% of the work won't be in DocBook.  But the remaining 5%, it's got its use02:48
enricoI can't think about a work like the QuickGuide made with a different system02:48
ntollegli, weido? :-) I was trying to find a happy medium for you two, web based yet exports to printable formats like pdf02:49
BurgundaviaThere is a reason most people link to ubuntuguide.org02:49
enrico(since its best use is to be printed in a booklet to be read by someone trying out the distro)02:49
Burgundaviabecause it is good02:49
Burgundaviaenrico: for that we would need sometime really pamphlet sized, and yes something like that would go better not-webbased02:49
Burgundaviasvn and docbook are very good at what they do02:50
enricoOk, we agree then.  I was worried you were focusing on the medium more than the goal :)02:50
BurgundaviaI just don't think that is where we should be focusing our energies02:50
ntollubuntuguide.org isn't working for me02:51
ntolltimes out02:51
Burgundaviaenrico: did you see my note about possibly using ubuntuguide.org?02:51
Burgundaviantoll: same for me02:51
enricoBurgundavia: yes, but did you discuss it nicely with Chua?  It sounded aggressive to me02:51
BurgundaviaI sent an email to him02:52
BurgundaviaI really like all the stuff you have done with your page.02:52
BurgundaviaI was wondering something. This is not official, but I had a thought02:52
Burgundaviaregarding documentation. Your page is already well advertised, so I02:52
Burgundaviawondered if a wiki could be installed there, and we could move the02:52
Burgundaviaoffical docs over there.02:52
BurgundaviaAs I said, this is NOT official, just me putting feelers out.02:52
BurgundaviaThanks again,02:52
eglioh my god, move the docu to a wiki02:53
Burgundaviaah yes02:53
enricoOk.  Although it sounds a bit like "I'm considering moving in your apartment: what do you think?" :)02:53
enricoChua is such a nice person, and he's been very kind with us02:54
Burgundaviaubuntuguide is really nice stuff02:54
Burgundaviaif you grepped #ubuntu for it, you would be amazed at home many times it pops up02:54
enricoAnd he's got his big plans.  Ubuntuguide.org is how he supports free software in Malaysia (that, and ordering *5000* Ubuntu CDs to use in courses and stuff he does)02:54
Burgundaviait is also linked from the sidebar of the forums02:54
BurgundaviaWhat I would really like to find a home for is all the unoffical stuff at the forums FAQ section02:56
Burgundaviaso much of it is: install xmms|mplayer|etc. and everything will be better02:56
egliisn't there a faq section in the ubuntulinix wiki?02:57
ntollegli, yes and it covers taht stuff02:57
egliso why a new home?02:57
BurgundaviaI was doing some work on the wiki today02:57
BurgundaviaThe wiki currently hosts about a dozen different things02:57
Burgundaviadev chatter02:57
Burgundaviaour docs02:57
Burgundaviaour chatter02:57
eglithat's what you get with wiki :-)02:58
Burgundaviawithout the tools to make it cohesive and organized02:58
ntollhmmm... so some wiki consolidation is in order then?02:58
Burgundaviaegli: no it is not02:58
Burgundaviaplus having several types of markup02:58
Burgundaviaone wiki for all docs, nothing else. One kind of markup02:58
egliso how do you envision these tools " to make it cohesive and organized"02:58
Burgundaviasmaller wiki02:59
Burgundaviathe only things that are going in are documentation02:59
Burgundaviamakes it easier to manage02:59
egliwould that imply another wiki engine than the one currently on ubuntulinux02:59
Burgundaviamediawiki, but it is php03:00
eglismth like mediawiki03:00
egliphp is a no-no?03:00
Burgundaviamediawiki is under the most active development03:00
Burgundaviamark shuttleworth doesn't like it, from what I have heard03:00
eglimediawiki has all the stuff you want|03:00
Burgundaviasome of it03:00
egliyou want more?03:00
Burgundaviacategories of are nice03:00
Burgundaviasome work could be on categories to allow you to sort them on the fly03:01
egliwhere you get the additional functionality?03:01
BurgundaviaI will take the existing functionality, because it is better than the current wiki03:01
Burgundaviaoh, and one markup language03:01
Burgundavianot 403:01
egliok one markup makes sense03:02
eglibut wikipedia also has a huge community03:02
Burgundaviaand then in the svn would be any docs we already have, plus things like marketing brochures03:02
egliwith the community mediawiki works03:02
Burgundaviawikipedia currently has about 6 developers03:03
egliwith just a small community svn + db might work better03:03
egliby community I mean the contributors of content03:03
Burgundaviabut you would then miss the advantages of a wiki03:03
eglisure, yes03:03
eglibut editorial control, consistence of wording etc03:04
Burgundaviawriter says "user needs doc on installing blah" write blah publish blah03:04
Burgundaviatime ~1 day at most03:04
egliwouldn't that be achieved better in db + svn03:04
Burgundaviaegli: that can be achieved with a wiki03:04
Burgundaviaremember that this wiki would only be docs03:04
Burgundaviaso very low volume03:04
eglialso because you have the entire content at your displosal, offline03:04
Burgundaviaso one or two people could just check everything that goes in. IE, just be watching the pages after the edit happens, not before03:05
Burgundaviaoffline is the bigger issue03:05
Burgundaviathat is why a good HTML to PDF thingy is needed03:05
eglihow many pages do we talk about? does that scale?03:05
Burgundaviadoes a wiki scale?03:06
BurgundaviaIn this English version, started in 2001, we are currently working on 494009 articles.03:06
egliBurgundavia: you'll never get a good html to pdf thingy03:06
Burgundaviadoes a community scale? yes03:06
eglino I mean in ubuntu doc. how many pages03:06
eglimaybe you could get a decent mediawiki markup to pdf thingy03:07
Burgundaviafor the total amount? I have no idea03:07
enricoBurgundavia: so the problem you point at is not the domain name, but that the current wiki sucks03:07
egliscale in the sense of somebody whatchlisting all the pages03:07
Burgundaviaubuntuguide.org would be icing on the cake03:07
Burgundaviathat depends on how many people edit03:08
BurgundaviaI currently watch 819 pages in WP03:08
BurgundaviaI get about 15~20 edits a day to review03:08
Burgundaviaof which most are small03:08
Burgundaviathere are some major techical hurdles to overcome become we could do this fully03:09
Burgundaviaand svn/docbook would never go away03:09
enricoBurgundavia: that (making a new wiki) wouldn't be appreciated, though, because the company's policy is to try and fix what one has03:10
enricoSo I suggest first to ask for the name of someone that takes care of improving/fixing the wiki03:10
Burgundaviaenrico: But we are talked 2 different audiences here03:10
Burgundaviaenrico: I have been doing some work and will continue to do so03:11
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Burgundaviabut changing the wiki fundamentally, which would be required, would require buyin from the entire wiki user community, and a lot of work03:11
Burgundaviaplus the wiki doesn't do multi-lang very well03:11
egliyou mean the current wiki?03:12
enricoBurgundavia: that's still "this wiki sucks, let's make a new one"03:12
BurgundaviaThe reason I want a seperate wiki is beyond this wiki sucks03:12
enricoI quite agree that this wiki needs improvements: I'm just telling you what I see as the best way for getting it in this context03:12
BurgundaviaI want a seperate wiki because it is "world facing"03:12
Burgundaviawe also need something for the devs to use03:13
Burgundaviaand us to chatter amongst ourselves03:13
Burgundaviait is like have a workshop and a boardroom03:13
Burgundaviayou don't generally mix them03:13
enricoWhy is it bad to share the wiki with the devels?03:13
Burgundaviaboardroom != workshop03:14
enricoThat metaphore doesn't necessarily hold for the wikis03:14
Burgundaviasorry why03:14
Burgundaviawe all need the wiki for different reasons03:14
BurgundaviaOurs needs to look good, with a wiki language that allows a lot of presentation markup03:15
enricobut wikis work better when different communities coehist in the same wiki, as that allows creativity to happen also in the border cases03:15
Burgundaviatheirs needs to be fast and easy, but doesn't need much presentation markup03:15
enricoOurs need to be fast and easy, too.  People weren't writing much in ReST: we moved to Moin just because of that03:16
BurgundaviaBut our Doc wiki is really only a wiki because that is easy. It is really nicely formated stuff that happens to exist there03:16
enricoour, which one?03:16
Burgundaviaour "new" wiki for the public03:16
BurgundaviaThe Doc Team wiki for putting docs up for the public to read03:17
Burgundaviawhich is mostly what it would be doing03:17
enricoHave you discussed that with someone from Canonical?03:17
BurgundaviaI have just being throwing ideas around right now03:17
enricoThought so :)03:17
BurgundaviaI wanted to get buyin from the doc team, so we could ask as the doc team03:18
Burgundaviaor not get buyin, in which case I drop the idea03:18
enricoBurgundavia: we've had regular sessions of "wiki sucks, let's have a new one"03:18
Burgundaviabut it has gone nowhere03:18
Burgundaviawiki still sucks03:18
enricoThat's why what I suggest is to get the name of someone that maintains the wiki03:19
BurgundaviaI have specifics that I would like to see changed03:19
BurgundaviaI would happily work with them to get it done03:19
enricoBurgundavia: at the docteam meeting, let's ask for this name, and discuss your specifics03:19
BurgundaviaI was kind of wait too03:20
Burgundaviabut others brought it up, so I thought I would explain my ideas03:20
enricoIt wouldn't be bad to put down, together with the others, a list of "why it sucks", "what it's blocking" and "what it would need"03:22
enricoThen post a URL to that during the meeting03:22
Burgundaviawhat about the list, just I list specifics there right now to generate input?03:23
enricoYou could use a wiki page to collect input03:23
Burgundaviasending soon03:24
enricoI think those three points ("why it sucks", "what it's blocking" and "what it would need") are all quite important03:24
Burgundaviasent a note to the list03:38
enricoBurgundavia: cool!03:38
Burgundaviaenrico: I still think a completely different wiki for presentation docs is vital03:39
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BuffaloSoldierhello everyone04:43
Burgundaviawhat brings you to ubuntu-doc?04:46
BuffaloSoldierjust checking out what are you guys up to04:47
Burgundaviathe quickguide is coming along quite nicely04:47
Burgundaviayou can grab it from the repos04:48
BurgundaviaBuffaloSoldier: any other questions?04:58
BuffaloSoldiernothing so far :)04:59
Burgundaviaif you have anything you think should be changed, email ubuntu-doc about it05:00
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mdke_laptophi :)07:05
Burgundaviaanything new and interesting?07:15
mdke_laptopnot from me07:16
mdke_laptopjust got home from school07:16
Burgundaviadid you see the post on the list about improving the wiki?07:16
mdke_laptopyeah but haven't looked properly yet07:17
mdke_laptoplemme check it out07:17
mdke_laptopi have like 20 to get through07:19
mdke_laptopok read07:21
mdke_laptopBurgundavia, mostly good stuff07:21
mdke_laptopone thing concerns me07:21
mdke_laptopwould it be difficult to export the current content to a new wiki?07:21
BurgundaviaThere really isn't that much in the current wiki that would really be necessary to move07:25
BurgundaviaRemember, the wiki is only from docs07:25
Burgundavianothing more07:25
mdke_laptopthere is a lot of stuff in the wiki07:26
Burgundaviano dev chatter, none of that07:26
Burgundaviamost of the stuff in the wiki is not docs07:26
mdke_laptopdon't forget other language docs07:26
Burgundaviathey can be moved if necessary07:26
mdke_laptopi'm on the italian list07:26
mdke_laptopwe were intending to consolidate lots of docs in the wiki07:27
BurgundaviaI would wait07:27
Burgundaviathis Sat. is the big meeting07:27
Burgundaviadoc meeting that is07:27
mdke_laptopwell at the moment there are lots of italian docs in the wiki, and some others on various other sites07:37
Burgundaviathere are a number of scattered sites that have docs07:43
Burgundaviathe most common on the english side is ubuntuguide.org07:43
mdke_laptoptoo much scatter07:45
Burgundaviaif you make the wiki cross language and suppor that well, then more of this will come together07:45
Burgundaviahave you seen the multi-lang stuff at wp?07:48
BurgundaviaIt could use some work in terms of visiblity, but the ideas are very sound07:49
Burgundaviathe other issue with cross lang there is different layouts of the pedia07:50
mdke_laptopwell if the content is easy to transfer I will continue trying to sort out the italian section08:02
Burgundaviacontinue to work on the existing stuff. I would just be hesitant about wholesale addition of new stuff08:05
mdke_laptopwell its just copy and paste from other sites really08:05
mdke_laptopbut it needs structural work as well08:05
mdke_laptopi'll do a bit08:05
mdke_laptopi'm still trying to get the hang of the politics in the italian team08:05
Burgundaviaare you italian?08:06
mdke_laptopbut i have lived in italy and wanna help out their team08:07
mdke_laptopi wanna steer clear of politics tho08:09
BurgundaviaI agree08:10
mdke_laptopeven in linux, it exists08:11
mdke_laptopmy god these wiki languages are crazy08:12
mdke_laptopmoinmoin is appalling08:12
Burgundaviait is08:13
Burgundaviaanother reason to move wikis08:13
BurgundaviaI have to catch some sleep08:14
Burgundaviatalk to you again soon08:14
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mdke_laptopevening enrico09:40
enrico_mdke_laptop: hi!09:41
mdke_laptophow goes it?09:41
enrico_mdke_laptop: about to dive deep into work09:42
mdke_laptoptuffati pure09:42
enrico_I haven't done anything today (yet)09:42
enrico_and it's evening (which is bad)09:42
mdke_laptopwhat did you do during the day?09:43
enrico_This morning I was called to talk in a high school about the new atypical jobs09:43
enrico_that is, the new kinds of fixed-term contracts one has nowadays09:43
mdke_laptopso you have done something today!09:43
enrico_that is, "please don't have any long-term plans in your life"09:43
mdke_laptopthere are jobs in italy?09:44
enrico_you need to teach high school students that they will need to fight for the bread, nowadays09:44
mdke_laptoptell them to come to England09:44
mdke_laptopland of the plentiful09:44
mdke_laptopbefore we close our borders09:45
enricoEngland?  I recall that wasn't very nice-looking for job-seekers that would like to have a family09:45
mdke_laptopyeah i'm just kidding09:46
enricolots of fixed-term, decaying social services, stuff like that09:46
mdke_laptopits not a great place actually09:46
mdke_laptopi want to move to italy09:46
enricoThere are jobs in Italy, yes, if you'd like to be exploited09:46
enricoTry googling for "serpica naro" in English sites only09:47
enricoLike, in google news, or in The Guardian (hoping The Guardian covered it)09:47
enriconothing on the Guardian09:48
mdke_laptopwhy english only?09:48
mdke_laptopChi e' la sconosciuta stilista giapponese Serpica Naro che chiude la settimana della moda milanese?09:49
enricoOh, RIGHT!  You know Italian09:49
enricoThat's a funny story09:49
=== mdke_laptop reads
mdke_laptopenrico, you have something I could do to help the docteam?09:50
enricoWe invented a saint to protect precarious workers (that is, all the fixed-terms and similar things)09:52
mdke_laptopyou were involved?09:52
enricoNo, but I do have the San Precario icon in my wallet :)09:52
enricoIt's got a prayer as well09:52
enricoTo help the docteam... what I see could be needed now is to hack a bit in the documentation of single applications09:54
enricolike, the things in /usr/share/doc09:54
enricolike, the things in /usr/share/doc/<package>09:54
enricohowever, we don't have cool infrastructure to handle it atm09:54
enricowhat's doable is having a read to the documentation of some app you know, and if it is lacking, apt-get source <packagename>, hack on it, then send a patch to the author09:55
enricothat's still a bit of a pioneer effort09:55
enricosaturday we'll discuss a bit of these things at the docteam meeting09:56
mdke_laptopi'll turn up09:56
enricoOr, wiki gardening09:56
mdke_laptopi like wiki gardening09:56
mdke_laptopis it helpful?09:56
enricowiki gardening is always very needed09:56
enricoIt's very helpful09:56
mdke_laptopdo people still use wikis tho?09:57
mdke_laptopbecause ubuntuguide is really the bible for n00bs ;)09:57
enricoThere are wiki pages that need some proofreading (maybe in light of new Hoary changes); some that need to be merged; some that need to be deleted altogether09:57
mdke_laptopi'd like to help if I can09:57
mdke_laptopcan i delete the Docbook wiki now? I merged the content into DocBook09:58
enricoIf you click on "wiki contents", you see an overview of everything in the wiki: there you can see if there are things misplaced or which have no sense anymore09:58
enricoYes, please delete it; but first, check the backlinks and fix the referring page to point to DocBook09:59
mdke_laptophave done09:59
enricothen by all means please delete it09:59
mdke_laptopcorey is right tho, this wiki sucks09:59
enricoI like deleting pages from the wiki :)09:59
enricoOh, it does!09:59
mdke_laptopits so annoying to have to keep logging in09:59
mdke_laptopdamn cookies don't work10:01
mdke_laptopand the language... *shudders*10:02
sivangmdke_laptop: we have a docbook wiki? :)10:03
mdke_laptopnow one10:04
enricomdke_laptop: it's been agreed to use MoinMoin as the markup of choice10:04
mdke_laptopenrico, yeah it seems to be standard10:04
enricomdke_laptop: (unless for some pages which are in ReST for some reason)10:04
mdke_laptopbut its so disturbing i'm almost tempted to use html10:04
enricomdke_laptop: however, MoinMoin is the markup of choice for the Docteam10:04
mdke_laptopenrico, i'm converting anything i see into MoinMoin10:05
mdke_laptopsivang, hi btw10:05
mdke_laptopi'm matt10:05
enricomdke_laptop: meet sivang 10:05
enricosivang: meet mdke_laptop 10:06
mdke_laptopthe "matt" nick was taken i'm afraid10:06
sivangmdke_laptop: pleased to meet you mdke_laptop 10:07
sivangenrico: hi enrico, what's up? 10:07
enricosivang: I was planning to dive deep into working10:07
=== sivang apologizes for being a bit distracted from doc bussiness with python learning and bug squashing :-/
enricoas usual, IRC isn't helping on that10:07
sivang(althought he get's addicted to bug squashing)10:07
sivangenrico: yeah, I have to shut it off whenever I am trying to do anything substantial10:08
enricomdke_laptop: sivang is our mascotte: he hangs in the channel saying he's sorry for not helping the docteam but promising he'll do it soon :)10:08
sivangenrico: btw, we still have the bug that we cannot put the documentation to a nice palce at front right?10:08
enricosivang: sure!10:08
sivangenrico: hehehe10:08
mdke_laptopthat is the worst bug of all10:08
sivangenrico: well, I at least promise to help on such matters like registerting the docs, I will try bugger up shawnm for the release about it10:09
enricosivang: oh, yes, please!10:10
enricosivang: I'm clueless on that10:10
sivangenrico: I promise to do that, really, shawn is already used to me bugging him alot :)10:11
sivangenrico: s/promise/promise to do my best to try and achive these, not accounting force major stuff/10:11

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