| === mdke_laptop [~mdke_lapt@mdke.user] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| mdke_laptop | evenin'all | 12:09 |
|---|---|---|
| === Burgundavia [~Burgundav@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| mdke_laptop | hmm | 01:53 |
| mdke_laptop | not much of a sleep Burgundavia | 01:53 |
| Burgundavia | I got 9 hours | 01:58 |
| Burgundavia | from sorry 7 | 01:58 |
| Burgundavia | from 9am to 4pm local | 01:58 |
| mdke_laptop | LOL | 01:58 |
| mdke_laptop | crazy | 01:58 |
| Burgundavia | got the cool new theme? | 01:58 |
| mdke_laptop | huh? | 01:59 |
| Burgundavia | do you run hoary? | 01:59 |
| mdke_laptop | yes | 01:59 |
| mdke_laptop | is the human theme changed? | 01:59 |
| Burgundavia | have you updated today? | 01:59 |
| mdke_laptop | yes | 01:59 |
| Burgundavia | yes, the progress bars are now brown and other cool things | 01:59 |
| mdke_laptop | yes i thought i noticed a difference | 01:59 |
| mdke_laptop | kewl | 01:59 |
| Burgundavia | I like it | 01:59 |
| Burgundavia | should we both with new screenshots? | 02:00 |
| mdke_laptop | ? | 02:00 |
| Burgundavia | things now look different | 02:00 |
| mdke_laptop | right | 02:00 |
| Burgundavia | I think we can simply leave it | 02:01 |
| mdke_laptop | oh | 02:01 |
| mdke_laptop | you mean bother | 02:01 |
| mdke_laptop | gotcha now | 02:01 |
| Burgundavia | oh | 02:01 |
| Burgundavia | yet | 02:01 |
| mdke_laptop | nah its cool to leave i think | 02:01 |
| Burgundavia | s/yet/yes | 02:01 |
| mdke_laptop | lol | 02:01 |
| Burgundavia | my typing tends to suck | 02:01 |
| === mdke_laptop rubs sand out of Burgundavia 's eyes | ||
| Burgundavia | why are you all trying to take care of me | 02:02 |
| mdke_laptop | sorry | 02:02 |
| Burgundavia | I am 22 dammit | 02:02 |
| mdke_laptop | its in my own interests | 02:02 |
| mdke_laptop | 22 huh | 02:02 |
| mdke_laptop | i'm 23 | 02:02 |
| mdke_laptop | anyhow no offence intended | 02:03 |
| Burgundavia | none taken | 02:04 |
| Burgundavia | it takes a long more than that to offend me | 02:04 |
| mdke_laptop | heh | 02:05 |
| Burgundavia | what I really like about the new theme is how warm everything became | 02:06 |
| Burgundavia | just a hint of brown in all the grey | 02:06 |
| mdke_laptop | haven't really noticed the difference yet | 02:07 |
| mdke_laptop | lemme restart some stuff | 02:07 |
| mdke_laptop | aha | 02:07 |
| mdke_laptop | that's better | 02:07 |
| mdke_laptop | its a bit bright | 02:08 |
| mdke_laptop | good tho | 02:08 |
| mdke_laptop | evolution looks great with it | 02:11 |
| mdke_laptop | ok sleep for me | 02:14 |
| mdke_laptop | nite | 02:14 |
| Burgundavia | cya | 02:14 |
| === Burgundavia [~Burgundav@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| === froud-away is now known as froud | ||
| Burgundavia | hey | 07:14 |
| === froud is now known as froud-away | ||
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| froud | Burgundavia: hi | 09:55 |
| froud | much better, now that we are discussing changes | 09:55 |
| abelli | mdke: /j irssi | 09:56 |
| Burgundavia | hey | 09:57 |
| froud | hey | 09:57 |
| froud | patches look much better too :-) | 09:57 |
| froud | nice small | 09:58 |
| froud | of course it's easier when you have access | 09:58 |
| froud | welcome | 09:58 |
| Burgundavia | Are you advocating calling them programs or apps? | 09:59 |
| froud | For GUI they are apps | 09:59 |
| froud | for DOS/SHELL they are programs | 09:59 |
| Burgundavia | but to a user that distinction doesn't exist | 09:59 |
| froud | Genral documentation style guides such as that of Sun | 10:00 |
| froud | use this distinction | 10:00 |
| Burgundavia | I am saying that almost all users (the great unwashed) use program | 10:00 |
| Burgundavia | that is our target audience, not power users | 10:00 |
| froud | Windows users call GUI apps Applications | 10:01 |
| Burgundavia | power users do | 10:01 |
| froud | Its a Windows app | 10:01 |
| froud | not a windows program | 10:01 |
| froud | its a DOS program | 10:01 |
| Burgundavia | from my time in the trenches of helpdesk, I heard the 2nd more often then not | 10:01 |
| froud | that is the generally accepted convention | 10:01 |
| Burgundavia | I understand the distinction myself, but I am saying that it doesn't exist in users minds | 10:02 |
| Burgundavia | non-power non-developer users | 10:02 |
| froud | Because histrorically there was a change in use of terms | 10:02 |
| froud | we should stay with the change | 10:02 |
| Burgundavia | but the change is to program | 10:02 |
| froud | All styleguides make this distinction | 10:03 |
| froud | no the change was from program to app | 10:03 |
| Burgundavia | what does not define a language in a style guide | 10:03 |
| Burgundavia | one defines it in the street, and that I what I hear | 10:03 |
| froud | when the windows world came the term program was replaced with application | 10:03 |
| froud | this is a question of style | 10:03 |
| froud | no authors use styleguides | 10:04 |
| froud | they are our standards | 10:04 |
| Burgundavia | maybe in developers minds, but not in users | 10:05 |
| froud | application program | 10:06 |
| froud | n : a program that gives a computer instructions that provide | 10:06 |
| froud | the user with tools to accomplish a task; "he has tried | 10:06 |
| froud | several different word processing applications" [syn: application, | 10:06 |
| froud | applications programme] | 10:06 |
| froud | The Free On-line Dictionary of Computing (27 SEP 03) [foldoc] | 10:06 |
| froud | application program | 10:06 |
| froud | 10:06 | |
| froud | <programming, operating system> (Or "application", "app") A | 10:07 |
| froud | complete, self-contained program that performs a specific | 10:07 |
| froud | function directly for the user. This is in contrast to system | 10:07 |
| froud | software such as the operating system kernel, server | 10:07 |
| froud | processes and libraries which exists to support application | 10:07 |
| froud | programs. | 10:07 |
| froud | 10:07 | |
| froud | Editors for various kinds of documents, spreadsheets, and | 10:07 |
| froud | text formatters are common examples of applications. Network | 10:07 |
| froud | applications include clients such as those for FTP, | 10:07 |
| froud | electronic mail, telnet and WWW. | 10:07 |
| froud | 10:07 | |
| froud | The term is used fairly loosely, for instance, some might say | 10:07 |
| froud | that a client and server together form a distributed | 10:07 |
| froud | application, others might argue that editors and compilers | 10:07 |
| froud | were not applications but tools for building applications. | 10:08 |
| froud | 10:08 | |
| froud | One distinction between an application program and the | 10:08 |
| froud | operating system is that applications always run in "user | 10:08 |
| froud | mode" (or "non-privileged mode"), while operating systems and | 10:08 |
| Burgundavia | ok | 10:08 |
| froud | related utilities may run in "supervisor mode" (or "privileged | 10:08 |
| froud | mode"). | 10:08 |
| Burgundavia | I understand what you are saying | 10:08 |
| froud | 10:08 | |
| froud | The term may also be used to distinguish programs which | 10:08 |
| froud | communicate via a graphical user interface from those which | 10:08 |
| froud | are executed from the command line. | 10:08 |
| froud | Note | 10:08 |
| froud | The term may also be used to distinguish programs which | 10:08 |
| froud | communicate via a graphical user interface from those which | 10:08 |
| froud | are executed from the command line. | 10:08 |
| froud | not everything need be a debate | 10:08 |
| froud | :-) | 10:08 |
| Burgundavia | I am doing some digging on places like tucows and download.com | 10:10 |
| Burgundavia | I have come across 1 entry of app to for every 10-20 of program | 10:10 |
| froud | you dont give up do you | 10:10 |
| froud | even when present with std's | 10:10 |
| froud | do waht every you want | 10:11 |
| Burgundavia | standards reflect what people say | 10:11 |
| Burgundavia | I am tenancious | 10:11 |
| Burgundavia | I don't mean to offend. I am looking to create the best document possible | 10:12 |
| Burgundavia | that means easy to understand terminology | 10:12 |
| froud | adhere to std create consitant usage and avoid conflict and confusion | 10:13 |
| Burgundavia | This another street vs university thing | 10:13 |
| Burgundavia | I like standards, that reflect common usage | 10:13 |
| froud | and FOLDOC does not | 10:14 |
| froud | so why not just write using colloquial language? | 10:14 |
| froud | Like Howzit dude, hope you are bopping today. Found Synaptic today, it toatally rocks | 10:14 |
| Burgundavia | there can be a happy medium | 10:15 |
| froud | where is the cut-off point | 10:15 |
| Burgundavia | I don't think I have explained myself correctly | 10:15 |
| Kinnison | Morning guys | 10:15 |
| Burgundavia | You can be simple and consise, using common english words, without descending into street language | 10:15 |
| froud | As authors of user manual there are known conventions we adhere to | 10:15 |
| froud | morn | 10:15 |
| Burgundavia | morn | 10:16 |
| Burgundavia | I am at it again | 10:16 |
| Burgundavia | stirring | 10:16 |
| froud | yet another hot debate for your entertainment | 10:16 |
| froud | well the let's put :-) ;-) :-/ | 10:16 |
| froud | into the docs | 10:16 |
| === c_ [~abelli@host-84-222-39-20.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| froud | wow c flat | 10:17 |
| froud | what a note | 10:17 |
| Burgundavia | http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=application&word2=program | 10:17 |
| Burgundavia | I mean that is non-serious sort of way | 10:17 |
| froud | oh please dude, because the majority of people don't know the diff and which is correct does not make it right | 10:18 |
| froud | and that thing is not based on any context | 10:18 |
| Burgundavia | or how about: http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=application+kills+kittens&word2=program+kills+kittens | 10:19 |
| Burgundavia | I think it is funny, but no weight | 10:19 |
| Burgundavia | there is a distinction between a proscritive and a descriptive dictionary | 10:20 |
| Burgundavia | s/proscritive/proscriptive | 10:21 |
| Burgundavia | froud: I follow the will of the doc team. I am merely trying to raise points of debate, in the hopes of asking questions that might not have been asked before | 10:23 |
| Burgundavia | At no point am I trying to offend anything that has already been done | 10:23 |
| Burgundavia | make that anything that anybody has already done | 10:24 |
| Burgundavia | Kinnison: ping | 10:37 |
| c_ | Burgundavia: any idea about htmlizing man pages? | 10:38 |
| Burgundavia | I have never done it, but I imagine there would be tools for it | 10:38 |
| c_ | Burgundavia: yeah.. the problem is finding them:( | 10:39 |
| Burgundavia | c_: there is a program in universe called man2html | 10:40 |
| Burgundavia | it seems to generate them on the fly though | 10:40 |
| c_ | ive installed it.. | 10:41 |
| c_ | but i can't find it.. | 10:41 |
| Kinnison | Burgundavia: what do you want? | 10:42 |
| Burgundavia | well I drove froud out of the doc team | 10:42 |
| Burgundavia | http://linux.com.hk/PenguinWeb/manpages.jsp | 10:43 |
| Burgundavia | abelli: that will view fedora core 1 pages | 10:43 |
| abelli | i n33d the d4rm ion3 man... | 10:43 |
| abelli | :(( | 10:43 |
| abelli | Burgundavia: however, many thanks | 10:43 |
| Burgundavia | I will keep looking | 10:44 |
| abelli | Kinnison: any idea? | 10:44 |
| Kinnison | abelli: about what? | 10:45 |
| abelli | htmlizing man pages. | 10:46 |
| abelli | ion3 man page | 10:49 |
| Kinnison | If you install the man2html package then zcat /usr/share/man/....ion3.?.gz | man2html > /tmp/ion3.html should do the trick | 10:55 |
| Kinnison | The hyperlinks will be a bit crud; but it should do the trick | 10:55 |
| abelli | Kinnison: unbelievable. | 10:58 |
| abelli | Kinnison: i owe you a pizza. | 10:58 |
| Burgundavia | did it work? | 10:58 |
| abelli | mmm | 10:59 |
| Burgundavia | nice | 10:59 |
| Burgundavia | have to remember that | 10:59 |
| abelli | dunno, but are you saying that the Master might be wrong? | 10:59 |
| Kinnison | Who is 'the Master' ? | 11:00 |
| abelli | you.. | 11:00 |
| abelli | there's a problem.. | 11:00 |
| === Kinnison blushes | ||
| abelli | ive installed man2html's package.. | 11:00 |
| abelli | but it's not in PATH | 11:00 |
| abelli | and i can't find it | 11:00 |
| abelli | dohhh.. | 11:01 |
| abelli | myfault. | 11:01 |
| Burgundavia | dpkg will tell you | 11:01 |
| Kinnison | It *ought* to be /usr/bin/man2html | 11:01 |
| abelli | dehiho it works | 11:02 |
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| === froud [~froud@ndn-165-131-148.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Konversation] | ||
| abelli | 1 pizza, 3 SAMUEL SMITH'S OLD BREWERY PALE ALE BEER | 11:04 |
| Kinnison | Gosh | 11:05 |
| Kinnison | You'd better bring it over; I need lunch | 11:05 |
| abelli | Kinnison: mm ill coming to london in the near future.. | 11:08 |
| abelli | but not now, i'm sorry | 11:08 |
| Kinnison | abelli: Then when you do; we'll have to meet up and say "hi" | 11:08 |
| === Kinnison can get to london on about 2h notice | ||
| abelli | sure | 11:08 |
| abelli | mmm ill be telling u that far earlier .. | 11:08 |
| abelli | lib_malloc.so | 11:09 |
| abelli | what package are in ? | 11:09 |
| abelli | btw does someone here know what burning app is going to be "supported" and if so, is it for hoary or h+1? | 11:11 |
| Burgundavia | abelli: they are talking about gnomebaker and/or graveman | 11:39 |
| abelli | Burgundavia: i sincerely like graveman.. which one is winning? | 11:40 |
| Burgundavia | no idea | 11:41 |
| abelli | Burgundavia: thank you | 11:41 |
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| ntoll | hi | 02:31 |
| Burgundavia | hey | 02:31 |
| ntoll | I just saw the comments about docs for windows migrators | 02:31 |
| Burgundavia | that would be me who made it | 02:31 |
| ntoll | on the ubuntu-users list | 02:32 |
| Burgundavia | the 2nd that is | 02:32 |
| === Kinnison wonders if he has to tell Burgundavia to go to bed | ||
| Burgundavia | Kinnison: yep | 02:32 |
| Kinnison | Burgundavia: Dude; seriously; re-set your body clock | 02:32 |
| ntoll | yup, I recognise the name | 02:32 |
| Burgundavia | Kinnison: I have ;) | 02:32 |
| Kinnison | Burgundavia: to what timezone? | 02:32 |
| Burgundavia | no idea | 02:32 |
| Kinnison | tsk | 02:32 |
| ntoll | Burgundavia, where are you? New Zealand? | 02:33 |
| Burgundavia | Canada | 02:33 |
| Burgundavia | west coast | 02:33 |
| Burgundavia | 5:33am here | 02:33 |
| ntoll | Burgundavia, aha, that explains it... anyway.... | 02:33 |
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| Burgundavia | I gather you posted the initial stuff to the list? | 02:33 |
| Kinnison | reset it to :Canada/Pacific | 02:34 |
| ntoll | nope | 02:34 |
| Burgundavia | oh | 02:34 |
| ntoll | but I've done something similar for a lug I used to belong to | 02:34 |
| Burgundavia | right now string freeze is several days away | 02:34 |
| Burgundavia | a doc like that will have to miss Hoary | 02:34 |
| Burgundavia | but there is no reason why we couldn't do something on the web | 02:34 |
| ntoll | Burgundavia, I quite agree, some sort of wiki like collab tool | 02:35 |
| Burgundavia | unfortunately, the current ubuntu wiki "could use some work" to say | 02:35 |
| ntoll | anyway, I'd be interested in getting involved in helping to write the doc | 02:35 |
| Burgundavia | most of the pieces are already there | 02:36 |
| ntoll | for the doc or the wiki? | 02:36 |
| ntoll | Burgundavia, if the doc where can I find it? | 02:36 |
| Burgundavia | install the package quickguide to see our latest work | 02:36 |
| ntoll | aha | 02:36 |
| ntoll | brb telephone | 02:36 |
| Burgundavia | might be ubuntu-quickguide or something | 02:36 |
| ntoll | o.k. off the phone now.... | 02:38 |
| ntoll | is it html? | 02:38 |
| Burgundavia | so primarly the docs are written in docbook, and parsed in yelp | 02:39 |
| ntoll | aha | 02:39 |
| Burgundavia | I am advocating moving to more web based system | 02:39 |
| Burgundavia | but a good wiki is needed | 02:39 |
| Burgundavia | so for the switchers doc | 02:40 |
| ntoll | I see | 02:40 |
| Burgundavia | we have an issue is that in some countries screenshots are copyright the program owner | 02:40 |
| Burgundavia | ie. m$ | 02:40 |
| ntoll | hmph.... that sucks hard | 02:41 |
| Burgundavia | however, we may be able to get away with some sort of 2 screenshots combined together with text over top | 02:41 |
| Burgundavia | 1 from each system | 02:41 |
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| Burgundavia | that would probably be considered a new work, and thus our copyright | 02:41 |
| ntoll | what about fair use clauses | 02:41 |
| Burgundavia | don't exist in some countries | 02:41 |
| egli | Burgundavia: why do you want to move away from docbook? | 02:42 |
| Burgundavia | like germany, if I remember correctly | 02:42 |
| Burgundavia | egli: faster changes, easier changes | 02:42 |
| ntoll | hmmm.... so how does everyone else get around it | 02:42 |
| ntoll | ? | 02:42 |
| Burgundavia | To the best of my knowledge, they just talk about it, without showing it | 02:42 |
| egli | Burgundavia: what about revision control | 02:43 |
| ntoll | I mean, any newspaper or magazine that publishes a screenshot | 02:43 |
| egli | what about generation of diffrerent output formats? | 02:43 |
| Burgundavia | egli: froud and I had a long discussion of this | 02:43 |
| Burgundavia | egli: He raised the same points | 02:43 |
| egli | froud = Sean | 02:43 |
| egli | ? | 02:43 |
| Burgundavia | yes | 02:43 |
| egli | oh | 02:43 |
| Burgundavia | they were good points | 02:43 |
| Burgundavia | I say ship PDF's for those who have internet access with HTML as well | 02:44 |
| Burgundavia | however, there is no good HTML to PDF renderer | 02:44 |
| ntoll | can you not just say All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. | 02:44 |
| ntoll | The rest 2005 Ubuntu document developers R' US? | 02:44 |
| egli | I like wikis but doku ought to be a little bit formal, i.e. svn + docbook ihmo | 02:44 |
| Burgundavia | egli: Honestly, why? | 02:44 |
| Burgundavia | ntoll: probably, but we would need to get a lawyer check on that | 02:45 |
| egli | i'd like to be able to trace revision history | 02:45 |
| egli | i like to add metadata (which I can do in docbook) | 02:45 |
| ntoll | Burgundavia, o.k. so how do I get involved? | 02:45 |
| Burgundavia | egli: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vancouver_International_Airport&curid=177015&diff=0&oldid=0 | 02:45 |
| egli | pdf can easily be generated from docbook | 02:45 |
| Burgundavia | ntoll: here and on the mailing list ubuntu-dic | 02:45 |
| Burgundavia | s/ubuntu-dic/ubuntu-doc | 02:46 |
| enrico | Burgundavia: how come you hate DB so much? | 02:46 |
| Burgundavia | DB? | 02:46 |
| Burgundavia | docbook | 02:46 |
| enrico | DocBook | 02:46 |
| Burgundavia | I don't hate it | 02:46 |
| ntoll | dicbook :-p | 02:46 |
| Burgundavia | I just think that there are better ways of developing useful docs | 02:46 |
| enrico | Burgundavia: books? | 02:46 |
| Burgundavia | enrico: ? | 02:46 |
| egli | besides gnome is using db for their docu. I think sean had some scheme how this stuff could be reused | 02:46 |
| enrico | I mean, there's surely better ways to write tutorials or HOWTOs. However, can you think of better ways to write books? | 02:47 |
| Burgundavia | so is TLDP, Sun, etc. | 02:47 |
| ntoll | have you guys seen silva? (http://www.infrae.com/products/silva) Might that be of use? | 02:47 |
| Burgundavia | but 95% of what users really need is HOWTOs | 02:47 |
| egli | Burgundavia: yes sure wiki has revisions but it's all web based | 02:47 |
| ntoll | a plone based doc store | 02:47 |
| Burgundavia | users need small bitsized chunks, right now | 02:48 |
| Burgundavia | mostly | 02:48 |
| Burgundavia | how do I check my email | 02:48 |
| Burgundavia | how do I install a new program | 02:48 |
| egli | ntoll: oh man not another weirdo solution when we have one that works | 02:48 |
| enrico | Burgundavia: so 95% of the work won't be in DocBook. But the remaining 5%, it's got its use | 02:48 |
| enrico | I can't think about a work like the QuickGuide made with a different system | 02:48 |
| ntoll | egli, weido? :-) I was trying to find a happy medium for you two, web based yet exports to printable formats like pdf | 02:49 |
| Burgundavia | There is a reason most people link to ubuntuguide.org | 02:49 |
| enrico | (since its best use is to be printed in a booklet to be read by someone trying out the distro) | 02:49 |
| Burgundavia | because it is good | 02:49 |
| Burgundavia | enrico: for that we would need sometime really pamphlet sized, and yes something like that would go better not-webbased | 02:49 |
| Burgundavia | svn and docbook are very good at what they do | 02:50 |
| enrico | Ok, we agree then. I was worried you were focusing on the medium more than the goal :) | 02:50 |
| Burgundavia | I just don't think that is where we should be focusing our energies | 02:50 |
| ntoll | ubuntuguide.org isn't working for me | 02:51 |
| ntoll | times out | 02:51 |
| Burgundavia | enrico: did you see my note about possibly using ubuntuguide.org? | 02:51 |
| Burgundavia | ntoll: same for me | 02:51 |
| enrico | Burgundavia: yes, but did you discuss it nicely with Chua? It sounded aggressive to me | 02:51 |
| Burgundavia | I sent an email to him | 02:52 |
| Burgundavia | Hey, | 02:52 |
| Burgundavia | I really like all the stuff you have done with your page. | 02:52 |
| Burgundavia | I was wondering something. This is not official, but I had a thought | 02:52 |
| Burgundavia | regarding documentation. Your page is already well advertised, so I | 02:52 |
| Burgundavia | wondered if a wiki could be installed there, and we could move the | 02:52 |
| Burgundavia | offical docs over there. | 02:52 |
| Burgundavia | As I said, this is NOT official, just me putting feelers out. | 02:52 |
| Burgundavia | Thanks again, | 02:52 |
| Burgundavia | Corey | 02:53 |
| egli | oh my god, move the docu to a wiki | 02:53 |
| Burgundavia | ah yes | 02:53 |
| enrico | Ok. Although it sounds a bit like "I'm considering moving in your apartment: what do you think?" :) | 02:53 |
| egli | hehe | 02:53 |
| Burgundavia | lol | 02:53 |
| enrico | Chua is such a nice person, and he's been very kind with us | 02:54 |
| Burgundavia | ubuntuguide is really nice stuff | 02:54 |
| Burgundavia | if you grepped #ubuntu for it, you would be amazed at home many times it pops up | 02:54 |
| enrico | And he's got his big plans. Ubuntuguide.org is how he supports free software in Malaysia (that, and ordering *5000* Ubuntu CDs to use in courses and stuff he does) | 02:54 |
| Burgundavia | it is also linked from the sidebar of the forums | 02:54 |
| Burgundavia | What I would really like to find a home for is all the unoffical stuff at the forums FAQ section | 02:56 |
| Burgundavia | so much of it is: install xmms|mplayer|etc. and everything will be better | 02:56 |
| egli | isn't there a faq section in the ubuntulinix wiki? | 02:57 |
| ntoll | egli, yes and it covers taht stuff | 02:57 |
| egli | so why a new home? | 02:57 |
| Burgundavia | I was doing some work on the wiki today | 02:57 |
| Burgundavia | The wiki currently hosts about a dozen different things | 02:57 |
| Burgundavia | dev chatter | 02:57 |
| Burgundavia | our docs | 02:57 |
| Burgundavia | our chatter | 02:57 |
| egli | that's what you get with wiki :-) | 02:58 |
| Burgundavia | without the tools to make it cohesive and organized | 02:58 |
| ntoll | hmmm... so some wiki consolidation is in order then? | 02:58 |
| Burgundavia | egli: no it is not | 02:58 |
| Burgundavia | plus having several types of markup | 02:58 |
| Burgundavia | one wiki for all docs, nothing else. One kind of markup | 02:58 |
| egli | so how do you envision these tools " to make it cohesive and organized" | 02:58 |
| Burgundavia | categories | 02:58 |
| Burgundavia | watchlists | 02:59 |
| Burgundavia | smaller wiki | 02:59 |
| Burgundavia | focused | 02:59 |
| Burgundavia | the only things that are going in are documentation | 02:59 |
| Burgundavia | makes it easier to manage | 02:59 |
| egli | ok | 02:59 |
| egli | would that imply another wiki engine than the one currently on ubuntulinux | 02:59 |
| Burgundavia | yes | 02:59 |
| Burgundavia | mediawiki, but it is php | 03:00 |
| egli | smth like mediawiki | 03:00 |
| egli | php is a no-no? | 03:00 |
| Burgundavia | mediawiki is under the most active development | 03:00 |
| Burgundavia | mark shuttleworth doesn't like it, from what I have heard | 03:00 |
| egli | mediawiki has all the stuff you want| | 03:00 |
| Burgundavia | some of it | 03:00 |
| egli | you want more? | 03:00 |
| Burgundavia | categories of are nice | 03:00 |
| Burgundavia | some work could be on categories to allow you to sort them on the fly | 03:01 |
| egli | where you get the additional functionality? | 03:01 |
| Burgundavia | I will take the existing functionality, because it is better than the current wiki | 03:01 |
| Burgundavia | oh, and one markup language | 03:01 |
| Burgundavia | not 4 | 03:01 |
| egli | ok one markup makes sense | 03:02 |
| egli | but wikipedia also has a huge community | 03:02 |
| Burgundavia | and then in the svn would be any docs we already have, plus things like marketing brochures | 03:02 |
| egli | with the community mediawiki works | 03:02 |
| Burgundavia | wikipedia currently has about 6 developers | 03:03 |
| egli | with just a small community svn + db might work better | 03:03 |
| egli | by community I mean the contributors of content | 03:03 |
| Burgundavia | but you would then miss the advantages of a wiki | 03:03 |
| Burgundavia | ah | 03:03 |
| egli | sure, yes | 03:03 |
| egli | but editorial control, consistence of wording etc | 03:04 |
| Burgundavia | writer says "user needs doc on installing blah" write blah publish blah | 03:04 |
| Burgundavia | time ~1 day at most | 03:04 |
| egli | wouldn't that be achieved better in db + svn | 03:04 |
| Burgundavia | egli: that can be achieved with a wiki | 03:04 |
| Burgundavia | remember that this wiki would only be docs | 03:04 |
| Burgundavia | so very low volume | 03:04 |
| egli | also because you have the entire content at your displosal, offline | 03:04 |
| Burgundavia | so one or two people could just check everything that goes in. IE, just be watching the pages after the edit happens, not before | 03:05 |
| Burgundavia | offline is the bigger issue | 03:05 |
| Burgundavia | that is why a good HTML to PDF thingy is needed | 03:05 |
| egli | how many pages do we talk about? does that scale? | 03:05 |
| Burgundavia | does a wiki scale? | 03:06 |
| Burgundavia | In this English version, started in 2001, we are currently working on 494009 articles. | 03:06 |
| egli | Burgundavia: you'll never get a good html to pdf thingy | 03:06 |
| Burgundavia | does a community scale? yes | 03:06 |
| egli | no I mean in ubuntu doc. how many pages | 03:06 |
| egli | maybe you could get a decent mediawiki markup to pdf thingy | 03:07 |
| Burgundavia | for the total amount? I have no idea | 03:07 |
| enrico | Burgundavia: so the problem you point at is not the domain name, but that the current wiki sucks | 03:07 |
| Burgundavia | yes | 03:07 |
| egli | scale in the sense of somebody whatchlisting all the pages | 03:07 |
| Burgundavia | ubuntuguide.org would be icing on the cake | 03:07 |
| Burgundavia | that depends on how many people edit | 03:08 |
| Burgundavia | I currently watch 819 pages in WP | 03:08 |
| Burgundavia | I get about 15~20 edits a day to review | 03:08 |
| Burgundavia | of which most are small | 03:08 |
| Burgundavia | there are some major techical hurdles to overcome become we could do this fully | 03:09 |
| Burgundavia | and svn/docbook would never go away | 03:09 |
| enrico | Burgundavia: that (making a new wiki) wouldn't be appreciated, though, because the company's policy is to try and fix what one has | 03:10 |
| enrico | So I suggest first to ask for the name of someone that takes care of improving/fixing the wiki | 03:10 |
| Burgundavia | enrico: But we are talked 2 different audiences here | 03:10 |
| Burgundavia | enrico: I have been doing some work and will continue to do so | 03:11 |
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| Burgundavia | but changing the wiki fundamentally, which would be required, would require buyin from the entire wiki user community, and a lot of work | 03:11 |
| Burgundavia | plus the wiki doesn't do multi-lang very well | 03:11 |
| egli | you mean the current wiki? | 03:12 |
| enrico | Burgundavia: that's still "this wiki sucks, let's make a new one" | 03:12 |
| Burgundavia | The reason I want a seperate wiki is beyond this wiki sucks | 03:12 |
| enrico | I quite agree that this wiki needs improvements: I'm just telling you what I see as the best way for getting it in this context | 03:12 |
| Burgundavia | I want a seperate wiki because it is "world facing" | 03:12 |
| Burgundavia | we also need something for the devs to use | 03:13 |
| Burgundavia | and us to chatter amongst ourselves | 03:13 |
| Burgundavia | it is like have a workshop and a boardroom | 03:13 |
| Burgundavia | you don't generally mix them | 03:13 |
| enrico | Why is it bad to share the wiki with the devels? | 03:13 |
| Burgundavia | yes | 03:14 |
| Burgundavia | boardroom != workshop | 03:14 |
| enrico | That metaphore doesn't necessarily hold for the wikis | 03:14 |
| Burgundavia | sorry why | 03:14 |
| Burgundavia | we all need the wiki for different reasons | 03:14 |
| Burgundavia | Ours needs to look good, with a wiki language that allows a lot of presentation markup | 03:15 |
| enrico | but wikis work better when different communities coehist in the same wiki, as that allows creativity to happen also in the border cases | 03:15 |
| Burgundavia | theirs needs to be fast and easy, but doesn't need much presentation markup | 03:15 |
| enrico | Ours need to be fast and easy, too. People weren't writing much in ReST: we moved to Moin just because of that | 03:16 |
| Burgundavia | But our Doc wiki is really only a wiki because that is easy. It is really nicely formated stuff that happens to exist there | 03:16 |
| enrico | our, which one? | 03:16 |
| Burgundavia | our "new" wiki for the public | 03:16 |
| enrico | our? | 03:16 |
| Burgundavia | The Doc Team wiki for putting docs up for the public to read | 03:17 |
| Burgundavia | which is mostly what it would be doing | 03:17 |
| enrico | Have you discussed that with someone from Canonical? | 03:17 |
| Burgundavia | no | 03:17 |
| Burgundavia | I have just being throwing ideas around right now | 03:17 |
| enrico | Thought so :) | 03:17 |
| Burgundavia | I wanted to get buyin from the doc team, so we could ask as the doc team | 03:18 |
| Burgundavia | or not get buyin, in which case I drop the idea | 03:18 |
| enrico | Burgundavia: we've had regular sessions of "wiki sucks, let's have a new one" | 03:18 |
| Burgundavia | but it has gone nowhere | 03:18 |
| Burgundavia | wiki still sucks | 03:18 |
| enrico | That's why what I suggest is to get the name of someone that maintains the wiki | 03:19 |
| Burgundavia | I have specifics that I would like to see changed | 03:19 |
| Burgundavia | I would happily work with them to get it done | 03:19 |
| enrico | Burgundavia: at the docteam meeting, let's ask for this name, and discuss your specifics | 03:19 |
| Burgundavia | ok | 03:19 |
| Burgundavia | I was kind of wait too | 03:20 |
| Burgundavia | but others brought it up, so I thought I would explain my ideas | 03:20 |
| Burgundavia | s/wait/waiting | 03:20 |
| enrico | It wouldn't be bad to put down, together with the others, a list of "why it sucks", "what it's blocking" and "what it would need" | 03:22 |
| enrico | Then post a URL to that during the meeting | 03:22 |
| Burgundavia | ok | 03:22 |
| Burgundavia | what about the list, just I list specifics there right now to generate input? | 03:23 |
| enrico | sure! | 03:23 |
| enrico | You could use a wiki page to collect input | 03:23 |
| Burgundavia | sending soon | 03:24 |
| Burgundavia | lol | 03:24 |
| enrico | I think those three points ("why it sucks", "what it's blocking" and "what it would need") are all quite important | 03:24 |
| Burgundavia | ok | 03:26 |
| Burgundavia | sent a note to the list | 03:38 |
| enrico | Burgundavia: cool! | 03:38 |
| Burgundavia | enrico: I still think a completely different wiki for presentation docs is vital | 03:39 |
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| BuffaloSoldier | hello everyone | 04:43 |
| Burgundavia | hey | 04:44 |
| Burgundavia | what brings you to ubuntu-doc? | 04:46 |
| BuffaloSoldier | just checking out what are you guys up to | 04:47 |
| BuffaloSoldier | :) | 04:47 |
| Burgundavia | well | 04:47 |
| Burgundavia | the quickguide is coming along quite nicely | 04:47 |
| Burgundavia | you can grab it from the repos | 04:48 |
| Burgundavia | ubuntu-quickguide | 04:48 |
| Burgundavia | BuffaloSoldier: any other questions? | 04:58 |
| BuffaloSoldier | nothing so far :) | 04:59 |
| Burgundavia | if you have anything you think should be changed, email ubuntu-doc about it | 05:00 |
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| mdke_laptop | hi :) | 07:05 |
| Burgundavia | hey | 07:08 |
| Burgundavia | anything new and interesting? | 07:15 |
| mdke_laptop | not from me | 07:16 |
| mdke_laptop | just got home from school | 07:16 |
| Burgundavia | did you see the post on the list about improving the wiki? | 07:16 |
| mdke_laptop | yeah but haven't looked properly yet | 07:17 |
| mdke_laptop | lemme check it out | 07:17 |
| mdke_laptop | i have like 20 to get through | 07:19 |
| mdke_laptop | ok read | 07:21 |
| mdke_laptop | Burgundavia, mostly good stuff | 07:21 |
| mdke_laptop | one thing concerns me | 07:21 |
| mdke_laptop | would it be difficult to export the current content to a new wiki? | 07:21 |
| Burgundavia | There really isn't that much in the current wiki that would really be necessary to move | 07:25 |
| Burgundavia | Remember, the wiki is only from docs | 07:25 |
| Burgundavia | nothing more | 07:25 |
| mdke_laptop | hmm | 07:26 |
| mdke_laptop | there is a lot of stuff in the wiki | 07:26 |
| Burgundavia | no dev chatter, none of that | 07:26 |
| Burgundavia | most of the stuff in the wiki is not docs | 07:26 |
| mdke_laptop | don't forget other language docs | 07:26 |
| Burgundavia | they can be moved if necessary | 07:26 |
| mdke_laptop | right | 07:26 |
| mdke_laptop | i'm on the italian list | 07:26 |
| mdke_laptop | we were intending to consolidate lots of docs in the wiki | 07:27 |
| Burgundavia | I would wait | 07:27 |
| Burgundavia | this Sat. is the big meeting | 07:27 |
| Burgundavia | doc meeting that is | 07:27 |
| mdke_laptop | yes | 07:27 |
| mdke_laptop | well at the moment there are lots of italian docs in the wiki, and some others on various other sites | 07:37 |
| Burgundavia | there are a number of scattered sites that have docs | 07:43 |
| Burgundavia | the most common on the english side is ubuntuguide.org | 07:43 |
| mdke_laptop | hmm | 07:45 |
| mdke_laptop | too much scatter | 07:45 |
| Burgundavia | if you make the wiki cross language and suppor that well, then more of this will come together | 07:45 |
| mdke_laptop | heh | 07:45 |
| Burgundavia | have you seen the multi-lang stuff at wp? | 07:48 |
| mdke_laptop | yes | 07:49 |
| Burgundavia | It could use some work in terms of visiblity, but the ideas are very sound | 07:49 |
| Burgundavia | the other issue with cross lang there is different layouts of the pedia | 07:50 |
| mdke_laptop | hmm | 08:02 |
| mdke_laptop | well if the content is easy to transfer I will continue trying to sort out the italian section | 08:02 |
| Burgundavia | continue to work on the existing stuff. I would just be hesitant about wholesale addition of new stuff | 08:05 |
| mdke_laptop | well its just copy and paste from other sites really | 08:05 |
| mdke_laptop | but it needs structural work as well | 08:05 |
| mdke_laptop | i'll do a bit | 08:05 |
| mdke_laptop | i'm still trying to get the hang of the politics in the italian team | 08:05 |
| mdke_laptop | ;) | 08:05 |
| Burgundavia | are you italian? | 08:06 |
| mdke_laptop | no | 08:06 |
| mdke_laptop | english | 08:06 |
| mdke_laptop | but i have lived in italy and wanna help out their team | 08:07 |
| Burgundavia | ok | 08:07 |
| mdke_laptop | i wanna steer clear of politics tho | 08:09 |
| Burgundavia | I agree | 08:10 |
| mdke_laptop | even in linux, it exists | 08:11 |
| mdke_laptop | my god these wiki languages are crazy | 08:12 |
| mdke_laptop | moinmoin is appalling | 08:12 |
| Burgundavia | it is | 08:13 |
| Burgundavia | another reason to move wikis | 08:13 |
| Burgundavia | I have to catch some sleep | 08:14 |
| Burgundavia | talk to you again soon | 08:14 |
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| mdke_laptop | evening enrico | 09:40 |
| mdke_laptop | *_ | 09:40 |
| enrico_ | mdke_laptop: hi! | 09:41 |
| mdke_laptop | how goes it? | 09:41 |
| enrico_ | mdke_laptop: about to dive deep into work | 09:42 |
| mdke_laptop | ok | 09:42 |
| mdke_laptop | tuffati pure | 09:42 |
| enrico_ | :) | 09:42 |
| enrico_ | I haven't done anything today (yet) | 09:42 |
| mdke_laptop | ouch | 09:42 |
| enrico_ | and it's evening (which is bad) | 09:42 |
| mdke_laptop | 21.42 | 09:42 |
| mdke_laptop | what did you do during the day? | 09:43 |
| enrico_ | This morning I was called to talk in a high school about the new atypical jobs | 09:43 |
| enrico_ | that is, the new kinds of fixed-term contracts one has nowadays | 09:43 |
| mdke_laptop | so you have done something today! | 09:43 |
| enrico_ | that is, "please don't have any long-term plans in your life" | 09:43 |
| mdke_laptop | lol | 09:44 |
| mdke_laptop | there are jobs in italy? | 09:44 |
| enrico_ | you need to teach high school students that they will need to fight for the bread, nowadays | 09:44 |
| mdke_laptop | :( | 09:44 |
| mdke_laptop | tell them to come to England | 09:44 |
| mdke_laptop | land of the plentiful | 09:44 |
| mdke_laptop | before we close our borders | 09:45 |
| enrico | England? I recall that wasn't very nice-looking for job-seekers that would like to have a family | 09:45 |
| mdke_laptop | yeah i'm just kidding | 09:46 |
| enrico | lots of fixed-term, decaying social services, stuff like that | 09:46 |
| mdke_laptop | hmm | 09:46 |
| mdke_laptop | its not a great place actually | 09:46 |
| mdke_laptop | i want to move to italy | 09:46 |
| enrico | There are jobs in Italy, yes, if you'd like to be exploited | 09:46 |
| enrico | Try googling for "serpica naro" in English sites only | 09:47 |
| enrico | Like, in google news, or in The Guardian (hoping The Guardian covered it) | 09:47 |
| mdke_laptop | ok | 09:47 |
| enrico | nothing on the Guardian | 09:48 |
| mdke_laptop | why english only? | 09:48 |
| mdke_laptop | Chi e' la sconosciuta stilista giapponese Serpica Naro che chiude la settimana della moda milanese? | 09:49 |
| mdke_laptop | "" | 09:49 |
| enrico | Oh, RIGHT! You know Italian | 09:49 |
| enrico | That's a funny story | 09:49 |
| === mdke_laptop reads | ||
| mdke_laptop | lol | 09:49 |
| mdke_laptop | enrico, you have something I could do to help the docteam? | 09:50 |
| enrico | http://www.chainworkers.org/dev/# | 09:51 |
| enrico | We invented a saint to protect precarious workers (that is, all the fixed-terms and similar things) | 09:52 |
| mdke_laptop | you were involved? | 09:52 |
| enrico | No, but I do have the San Precario icon in my wallet :) | 09:52 |
| enrico | It's got a prayer as well | 09:52 |
| mdke_laptop | lol | 09:52 |
| mdke_laptop | brb | 09:52 |
| enrico | To help the docteam... what I see could be needed now is to hack a bit in the documentation of single applications | 09:54 |
| enrico | like, the things in /usr/share/doc | 09:54 |
| enrico | like, the things in /usr/share/doc/<package> | 09:54 |
| enrico | however, we don't have cool infrastructure to handle it atm | 09:54 |
| enrico | what's doable is having a read to the documentation of some app you know, and if it is lacking, apt-get source <packagename>, hack on it, then send a patch to the author | 09:55 |
| enrico | that's still a bit of a pioneer effort | 09:55 |
| enrico | saturday we'll discuss a bit of these things at the docteam meeting | 09:56 |
| mdke_laptop | i'll turn up | 09:56 |
| enrico | Or, wiki gardening | 09:56 |
| mdke_laptop | i like wiki gardening | 09:56 |
| mdke_laptop | is it helpful? | 09:56 |
| enrico | wiki gardening is always very needed | 09:56 |
| enrico | It's very helpful | 09:56 |
| mdke_laptop | do people still use wikis tho? | 09:57 |
| mdke_laptop | because ubuntuguide is really the bible for n00bs ;) | 09:57 |
| enrico | There are wiki pages that need some proofreading (maybe in light of new Hoary changes); some that need to be merged; some that need to be deleted altogether | 09:57 |
| mdke_laptop | i'd like to help if I can | 09:57 |
| mdke_laptop | can i delete the Docbook wiki now? I merged the content into DocBook | 09:58 |
| enrico | If you click on "wiki contents", you see an overview of everything in the wiki: there you can see if there are things misplaced or which have no sense anymore | 09:58 |
| mdke_laptop | hmm | 09:58 |
| mdke_laptop | ok | 09:58 |
| enrico | Yes, please delete it; but first, check the backlinks and fix the referring page to point to DocBook | 09:59 |
| mdke_laptop | have done | 09:59 |
| enrico | then by all means please delete it | 09:59 |
| mdke_laptop | corey is right tho, this wiki sucks | 09:59 |
| enrico | I like deleting pages from the wiki :) | 09:59 |
| enrico | Oh, it does! | 09:59 |
| mdke_laptop | its so annoying to have to keep logging in | 09:59 |
| mdke_laptop | damn cookies don't work | 10:01 |
| mdke_laptop | and the language... *shudders* | 10:02 |
| sivang | mdke_laptop: we have a docbook wiki? :) | 10:03 |
| mdke_laptop | two | 10:04 |
| mdke_laptop | now one | 10:04 |
| enrico | mdke_laptop: it's been agreed to use MoinMoin as the markup of choice | 10:04 |
| mdke_laptop | enrico, yeah it seems to be standard | 10:04 |
| enrico | mdke_laptop: (unless for some pages which are in ReST for some reason) | 10:04 |
| mdke_laptop | but its so disturbing i'm almost tempted to use html | 10:04 |
| enrico | mdke_laptop: however, MoinMoin is the markup of choice for the Docteam | 10:04 |
| mdke_laptop | ;p | 10:04 |
| mdke_laptop | enrico, i'm converting anything i see into MoinMoin | 10:05 |
| mdke_laptop | tranquillo | 10:05 |
| mdke_laptop | sivang, hi btw | 10:05 |
| mdke_laptop | i'm matt | 10:05 |
| enrico | mdke_laptop: meet sivang | 10:05 |
| enrico | sivang: meet mdke_laptop | 10:06 |
| mdke_laptop | the "matt" nick was taken i'm afraid | 10:06 |
| sivang | mdke_laptop: pleased to meet you mdke_laptop | 10:07 |
| mdke_laptop | lol | 10:07 |
| mdke_laptop | :) | 10:07 |
| sivang | enrico: hi enrico, what's up? | 10:07 |
| enrico | sivang: I was planning to dive deep into working | 10:07 |
| === sivang apologizes for being a bit distracted from doc bussiness with python learning and bug squashing :-/ | ||
| enrico | as usual, IRC isn't helping on that | 10:07 |
| sivang | (althought he get's addicted to bug squashing) | 10:07 |
| sivang | enrico: yeah, I have to shut it off whenever I am trying to do anything substantial | 10:08 |
| mdke_laptop | heh | 10:08 |
| enrico | mdke_laptop: sivang is our mascotte: he hangs in the channel saying he's sorry for not helping the docteam but promising he'll do it soon :) | 10:08 |
| mdke_laptop | lol | 10:08 |
| sivang | enrico: btw, we still have the bug that we cannot put the documentation to a nice palce at front right? | 10:08 |
| enrico | sivang: sure! | 10:08 |
| sivang | enrico: hehehe | 10:08 |
| mdke_laptop | that is the worst bug of all | 10:08 |
| mdke_laptop | brb | 10:08 |
| sivang | enrico: well, I at least promise to help on such matters like registerting the docs, I will try bugger up shawnm for the release about it | 10:09 |
| enrico | sivang: oh, yes, please! | 10:10 |
| enrico | sivang: I'm clueless on that | 10:10 |
| sivang | enrico: I promise to do that, really, shawn is already used to me bugging him alot :) | 10:11 |
| sivang | enrico: s/promise/promise to do my best to try and achive these, not accounting force major stuff/ | 10:11 |
| sivang | :-) | 10:11 |
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