[12:09] <mdke_laptop> evenin'all
[01:53] <mdke_laptop> hmm
[01:53] <mdke_laptop> not much of a sleep Burgundavia 
[01:58] <Burgundavia> I got 9 hours
[01:58] <Burgundavia> from sorry 7
[01:58] <Burgundavia> from 9am to 4pm local
[01:58] <mdke_laptop> LOL
[01:58] <mdke_laptop> crazy
[01:58] <Burgundavia> got the cool new theme?
[01:59] <mdke_laptop> huh?
[01:59] <Burgundavia> do you run hoary?
[01:59] <mdke_laptop> yes
[01:59] <mdke_laptop> is the human theme changed?
[01:59] <Burgundavia> have you updated today?
[01:59] <mdke_laptop> yes
[01:59] <Burgundavia> yes, the progress bars are now brown and other cool things
[01:59] <mdke_laptop> yes i thought i noticed a difference
[01:59] <mdke_laptop> kewl
[01:59] <Burgundavia> I like it
[02:00] <Burgundavia> should we both with new screenshots?
[02:00] <mdke_laptop> ?
[02:00] <Burgundavia> things now look different
[02:00] <mdke_laptop> right
[02:01] <Burgundavia> I think we can simply leave it
[02:01] <mdke_laptop> oh
[02:01] <mdke_laptop> you mean bother
[02:01] <mdke_laptop> gotcha now
[02:01] <Burgundavia> oh
[02:01] <Burgundavia> yet
[02:01] <mdke_laptop> nah its cool to leave i think
[02:01] <Burgundavia> s/yet/yes
[02:01] <mdke_laptop> lol
[02:01] <Burgundavia> my typing tends to suck
[02:02] <Burgundavia> why are you all trying to take care of me
[02:02] <mdke_laptop> sorry
[02:02] <Burgundavia> I am 22 dammit
[02:02] <mdke_laptop> its in my own interests
[02:02] <mdke_laptop> 22 huh
[02:02] <mdke_laptop> i'm 23
[02:03] <mdke_laptop> anyhow no offence intended
[02:04] <Burgundavia> none taken
[02:04] <Burgundavia> it takes a long more than that to offend me
[02:05] <mdke_laptop> heh
[02:06] <Burgundavia> what I really like about the new theme is how warm everything became
[02:06] <Burgundavia> just a hint of brown in all the grey
[02:07] <mdke_laptop> haven't really noticed the difference yet
[02:07] <mdke_laptop> lemme restart some stuff
[02:07] <mdke_laptop> aha
[02:07] <mdke_laptop> that's better
[02:08] <mdke_laptop> its a bit bright
[02:08] <mdke_laptop> good tho
[02:11] <mdke_laptop> evolution looks great with it
[02:14] <mdke_laptop> ok sleep for me
[02:14] <mdke_laptop> nite
[02:14] <Burgundavia> cya
[07:14] <Burgundavia> hey
[09:55] <froud> Burgundavia: hi
[09:55] <froud> much better, now that we are discussing changes
[09:56] <abelli> mdke: /j irssi
[09:57] <Burgundavia> hey
[09:57] <froud> hey
[09:57] <froud> patches look much better too :-)
[09:58] <froud> nice small
[09:58] <froud> of course it's easier when you have access
[09:58] <froud> welcome
[09:59] <Burgundavia> Are you advocating calling them programs or apps?
[09:59] <froud> For GUI they are apps
[09:59] <froud> for DOS/SHELL they are programs
[09:59] <Burgundavia> but to a user that distinction doesn't exist
[10:00] <froud> Genral documentation style guides such as that of Sun
[10:00] <froud> use this distinction
[10:00] <Burgundavia> I am saying that almost all users (the great unwashed) use program
[10:00] <Burgundavia> that is our target audience, not power users
[10:01] <froud> Windows users call GUI apps Applications
[10:01] <Burgundavia> power users do
[10:01] <froud> Its a Windows app
[10:01] <froud> not a windows program
[10:01] <froud> its a DOS program
[10:01] <Burgundavia> from my time in the trenches of helpdesk, I heard the 2nd more often then not
[10:01] <froud> that is the generally accepted convention
[10:02] <Burgundavia> I understand the distinction myself, but I am saying that it doesn't exist in users minds
[10:02] <Burgundavia> non-power non-developer users
[10:02] <froud> Because histrorically there was a change in use of terms
[10:02] <froud> we should stay with the change
[10:02] <Burgundavia> but the change is to program
[10:03] <froud> All styleguides make this distinction
[10:03] <froud> no the change was from program to app
[10:03] <Burgundavia> what does not define a language in a style guide
[10:03] <Burgundavia> one defines it in the street, and that I what I hear
[10:03] <froud> when the windows world came the term program was replaced with application
[10:03] <froud> this is a question of style
[10:04] <froud> no authors use styleguides
[10:04] <froud> they are our standards
[10:05] <Burgundavia> maybe in developers minds, but not in users
[10:06] <froud> application program
[10:06] <froud>      n : a program that gives a computer instructions that provide
[10:06] <froud>          the user with tools to accomplish a task; "he has tried
[10:06] <froud>          several different word processing applications" [syn: application,
[10:06] <froud>           applications programme] 
[10:06] <froud> The Free On-line Dictionary of Computing (27 SEP 03) [foldoc] 
[10:06] <froud> application program
[10:06] <froud> 
[10:07] <froud>         <programming, operating system> (Or "application", "app") A
[10:07] <froud>         complete, self-contained program that performs a specific
[10:07] <froud>         function directly for the user.  This is in contrast to system
[10:07] <froud>         software such as the operating system kernel, server
[10:07] <froud>         processes and libraries which exists to support application
[10:07] <froud>         programs.
[10:07] <froud> 
[10:07] <froud>         Editors for various kinds of documents, spreadsheets, and
[10:07] <froud>         text formatters are common examples of applications.  Network
[10:07] <froud>         applications include clients such as those for FTP,
[10:07] <froud>         electronic mail, telnet and WWW.
[10:07] <froud> 
[10:07] <froud>         The term is used fairly loosely, for instance, some might say
[10:07] <froud>         that a client and server together form a distributed
[10:07] <froud>         application, others might argue that editors and compilers
[10:08] <froud>         were not applications but tools for building applications.
[10:08] <froud> 
[10:08] <froud>         One distinction between an application program and the
[10:08] <froud>         operating system is that applications always run in "user
[10:08] <froud>         mode" (or "non-privileged mode"), while operating systems and
[10:08] <Burgundavia> ok
[10:08] <froud>         related utilities may run in "supervisor mode" (or "privileged
[10:08] <froud>         mode").
[10:08] <Burgundavia> I understand what you are saying
[10:08] <froud> 
[10:08] <froud>         The term may also be used to distinguish programs which
[10:08] <froud>         communicate via a graphical user interface from those which
[10:08] <froud>         are executed from the command line.
[10:08] <froud> Note
[10:08] <froud> The term may also be used to distinguish programs which
[10:08] <froud>         communicate via a graphical user interface from those which
[10:08] <froud>         are executed from the command line.
[10:08] <froud> not everything need be a debate
[10:08] <froud> :-)
[10:10] <Burgundavia> I am doing some digging on places like tucows and download.com
[10:10] <Burgundavia> I have come across 1 entry of app to for every 10-20 of program
[10:10] <froud> you dont give up do you
[10:10] <froud> even when present with std's
[10:11] <froud> do waht every you want
[10:11] <Burgundavia> standards reflect what people say
[10:11] <Burgundavia> I am tenancious
[10:12] <Burgundavia> I don't mean to offend. I am looking to create the best document possible
[10:12] <Burgundavia> that means easy to understand terminology
[10:13] <froud> adhere to std create consitant usage and avoid conflict and confusion
[10:13] <Burgundavia> This another street vs university thing
[10:13] <Burgundavia> I like standards, that reflect common usage
[10:14] <froud> and FOLDOC does not
[10:14] <froud> so why not just write using colloquial language?
[10:14] <froud> Like Howzit dude, hope you are bopping today.  Found Synaptic today, it toatally rocks
[10:15] <Burgundavia> there can be a happy medium
[10:15] <froud> where is the cut-off point
[10:15] <Burgundavia> I don't think I have explained myself correctly
[10:15] <Kinnison> Morning guys
[10:15] <Burgundavia> You can be simple and consise, using common english words, without descending into street language
[10:15] <froud> As authors of user manual there are known conventions we adhere to
[10:15] <froud> morn
[10:16] <Burgundavia> morn
[10:16] <Burgundavia> I am at it again
[10:16] <Burgundavia> stirring
[10:16] <froud> yet another hot debate for your entertainment
[10:16] <froud> well the let's put :-) ;-) :-/
[10:16] <froud> into the docs
[10:17] <froud> wow c flat
[10:17] <froud> what a note
[10:17] <Burgundavia> http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=application&word2=program
[10:17] <Burgundavia> I mean that is non-serious sort of way
[10:18] <froud> oh please dude, because the majority of people don't know the diff and which is correct does not make it right
[10:18] <froud> and that thing is not based on any context
[10:19] <Burgundavia> or how about: http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=application+kills+kittens&word2=program+kills+kittens
[10:19] <Burgundavia> I think it is funny, but no weight
[10:20] <Burgundavia> there is a distinction between a proscritive and a descriptive dictionary
[10:21] <Burgundavia> s/proscritive/proscriptive
[10:23] <Burgundavia> froud: I follow the will of the doc team. I am merely trying to raise points of debate, in the hopes of asking questions that might not have been asked before
[10:23] <Burgundavia> At no point am I trying to offend anything that has already been done
[10:24] <Burgundavia> make that anything that anybody has already done
[10:37] <Burgundavia> Kinnison: ping
[10:38] <c_> Burgundavia: any idea about htmlizing man pages?
[10:38] <Burgundavia> I have never done it, but I imagine there would be tools for it
[10:39] <c_> Burgundavia: yeah.. the problem is finding them:(
[10:40] <Burgundavia> c_: there is a program in universe called man2html
[10:40] <Burgundavia> it seems to generate them on the fly though
[10:41] <c_> ive installed it..
[10:41] <c_> but i can't find it..
[10:42] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: what do you want?
[10:42] <Burgundavia> well I drove froud out of the doc team
[10:43] <Burgundavia> http://linux.com.hk/PenguinWeb/manpages.jsp
[10:43] <Burgundavia> abelli: that will view fedora core 1 pages
[10:43] <abelli> i n33d the d4rm ion3 man...
[10:43] <abelli> :((
[10:43] <abelli> Burgundavia: however, many thanks
[10:44] <Burgundavia> I will keep looking
[10:44] <abelli> Kinnison: any idea?
[10:45] <Kinnison> abelli: about what?
[10:46] <abelli> htmlizing man pages.
[10:49] <abelli> ion3 man page
[10:55] <Kinnison> If you install the man2html package then zcat /usr/share/man/....ion3.?.gz | man2html > /tmp/ion3.html should do the trick
[10:55] <Kinnison> The hyperlinks will be a bit crud; but it should do the trick
[10:58] <abelli> Kinnison: unbelievable.
[10:58] <abelli> Kinnison: i owe you a pizza.
[10:58] <Burgundavia> did it work?
[10:59] <abelli> mmm
[10:59] <Burgundavia> nice
[10:59] <Burgundavia> have to remember that
[10:59] <abelli> dunno, but are you saying that the Master might be wrong?
[11:00] <Kinnison> Who is 'the Master' ?
[11:00] <abelli> you..
[11:00] <abelli> there's a problem..
[11:00] <abelli> ive installed man2html's package..
[11:00] <abelli> but it's not in PATH
[11:00] <abelli> and i can't find it
[11:01] <abelli> dohhh..
[11:01] <abelli> myfault.
[11:01] <Burgundavia> dpkg will tell you
[11:01] <Kinnison> It *ought* to be /usr/bin/man2html
[11:02] <abelli> dehiho it works
[11:04] <abelli> 1 pizza, 3 SAMUEL SMITH'S OLD BREWERY PALE ALE BEER
[11:05] <Kinnison> Gosh
[11:05] <Kinnison> You'd better bring it over; I need lunch
[11:08] <abelli> Kinnison: mm ill coming to london in the near future..
[11:08] <abelli> but not now, i'm sorry
[11:08] <Kinnison> abelli: Then when you do; we'll have to meet up and say "hi"
[11:08] <abelli> sure
[11:08] <abelli> mmm ill be telling u that far earlier ..
[11:09] <abelli> lib_malloc.so
[11:09] <abelli> what package are in ?
[11:11] <abelli> btw does someone here know what burning app is going to be "supported" and if so, is it for hoary or h+1?
[11:39] <Burgundavia> abelli: they are talking about gnomebaker and/or graveman
[11:40] <abelli> Burgundavia: i sincerely like graveman.. which one is winning?
[11:41] <Burgundavia> no idea
[11:41] <abelli> Burgundavia: thank you
[02:31] <ntoll> hi
[02:31] <Burgundavia> hey
[02:31] <ntoll> I just saw the comments about docs for windows migrators
[02:31] <Burgundavia> that would be me who made it
[02:32] <ntoll> on the ubuntu-users list
[02:32] <Burgundavia> the 2nd that is
[02:32] <Burgundavia> Kinnison: yep
[02:32] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: Dude; seriously; re-set your body clock
[02:32] <ntoll> yup, I recognise the name
[02:32] <Burgundavia> Kinnison: I have ;)
[02:32] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: to what timezone?
[02:32] <Burgundavia> no idea
[02:32] <Kinnison> tsk
[02:33] <ntoll> Burgundavia, where are you? New Zealand?
[02:33] <Burgundavia> Canada
[02:33] <Burgundavia> west coast
[02:33] <Burgundavia> 5:33am here
[02:33] <ntoll> Burgundavia, aha, that explains it... anyway....
[02:33] <Burgundavia> I gather you posted the initial stuff to the list?
[02:34] <Kinnison> reset it to :Canada/Pacific
[02:34] <ntoll> nope
[02:34] <Burgundavia> oh
[02:34] <ntoll> but I've done something similar for a lug I used to belong to
[02:34] <Burgundavia> right now string freeze is several days away
[02:34] <Burgundavia> a doc like that will have to miss Hoary
[02:34] <Burgundavia> but there is no reason why we couldn't do something on the web
[02:35] <ntoll> Burgundavia, I quite agree, some sort of wiki like collab tool
[02:35] <Burgundavia> unfortunately, the current ubuntu wiki "could use some work" to say
[02:35] <ntoll> anyway, I'd be interested in getting involved in helping to write the doc
[02:36] <Burgundavia> most of the pieces are already there
[02:36] <ntoll> for the doc or the wiki?
[02:36] <ntoll> Burgundavia, if the doc where can I find it?
[02:36] <Burgundavia> install the package quickguide to see our latest work
[02:36] <ntoll> aha
[02:36] <ntoll> brb telephone
[02:36] <Burgundavia> might be ubuntu-quickguide or something
[02:38] <ntoll> o.k. off the phone now....
[02:38] <ntoll> is it html?
[02:39] <Burgundavia> so primarly the docs are written in docbook, and parsed in yelp
[02:39] <ntoll> aha
[02:39] <Burgundavia> I am advocating moving to more web based system
[02:39] <Burgundavia> but a good wiki is needed
[02:40] <Burgundavia> so for the switchers doc
[02:40] <ntoll> I see
[02:40] <Burgundavia> we have an issue is that in some countries screenshots are copyright the program owner
[02:40] <Burgundavia> ie. m$
[02:41] <ntoll> hmph.... that sucks hard
[02:41] <Burgundavia> however, we may be able to get away with some sort of 2 screenshots combined together with text over top
[02:41] <Burgundavia> 1 from each system
[02:41] <Burgundavia> that would probably be considered a new work, and thus our copyright
[02:41] <ntoll> what about fair use clauses
[02:41] <Burgundavia> don't exist in some countries
[02:42] <egli> Burgundavia: why do you want to move away from docbook?
[02:42] <Burgundavia> like germany, if I remember correctly
[02:42] <Burgundavia> egli: faster changes, easier changes
[02:42] <ntoll> hmmm.... so how does everyone else get around it
[02:42] <ntoll> ?
[02:42] <Burgundavia> To the best of my knowledge, they just talk about it, without showing it
[02:43] <egli> Burgundavia: what about revision control
[02:43] <ntoll> I mean, any newspaper or magazine that publishes a screenshot
[02:43] <egli> what about generation of diffrerent output formats?
[02:43] <Burgundavia> egli: froud and I had a long discussion of this
[02:43] <Burgundavia> egli: He raised the same points
[02:43] <egli> froud = Sean 
[02:43] <egli> ?
[02:43] <Burgundavia> yes
[02:43] <egli> oh
[02:43] <Burgundavia> they were good points
[02:44] <Burgundavia> I say ship PDF's for those who have internet access with HTML as well
[02:44] <Burgundavia> however, there is no good HTML to PDF renderer
[02:44] <ntoll> can you not just say  All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners.
[02:44] <ntoll> The rest  2005 Ubuntu document developers R' US?
[02:44] <egli> I like wikis but doku ought to be a little bit formal, i.e. svn + docbook ihmo
[02:44] <Burgundavia> egli: Honestly, why?
[02:45] <Burgundavia> ntoll: probably, but we would need to get a lawyer check on that
[02:45] <egli> i'd like to be able to trace revision history
[02:45] <egli> i like to add metadata (which I can do in docbook)
[02:45] <ntoll> Burgundavia, o.k. so how do I get involved?
[02:45] <Burgundavia> egli: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vancouver_International_Airport&curid=177015&diff=0&oldid=0
[02:45] <egli> pdf can easily be generated from docbook
[02:45] <Burgundavia> ntoll: here and on the mailing list ubuntu-dic
[02:46] <Burgundavia> s/ubuntu-dic/ubuntu-doc
[02:46] <enrico> Burgundavia: how come you hate DB so much?
[02:46] <Burgundavia> DB?
[02:46] <Burgundavia> docbook
[02:46] <enrico> DocBook
[02:46] <Burgundavia> I don't hate it
[02:46] <ntoll> dicbook :-p
[02:46] <Burgundavia> I just think that there are better ways of developing useful docs
[02:46] <enrico> Burgundavia: books?
[02:46] <Burgundavia> enrico: ?
[02:46] <egli> besides gnome is using db for their docu. I think sean had some scheme how this stuff could be reused
[02:47] <enrico> I mean, there's surely better ways to write tutorials or HOWTOs.  However, can you think of better ways to write books?
[02:47] <Burgundavia> so is TLDP, Sun, etc.
[02:47] <ntoll> have you guys seen silva? (http://www.infrae.com/products/silva) Might that be of use?
[02:47] <Burgundavia> but 95% of what users really need is HOWTOs
[02:47] <egli> Burgundavia: yes sure wiki has revisions but it's all web based
[02:47] <ntoll> a plone based doc store
[02:48] <Burgundavia> users need small bitsized chunks, right now
[02:48] <Burgundavia> mostly
[02:48] <Burgundavia> how do I check my email
[02:48] <Burgundavia> how do I install a new program
[02:48] <egli> ntoll: oh man not another weirdo solution when we have one that works
[02:48] <enrico> Burgundavia: so 95% of the work won't be in DocBook.  But the remaining 5%, it's got its use
[02:48] <enrico> I can't think about a work like the QuickGuide made with a different system
[02:49] <ntoll> egli, weido? :-) I was trying to find a happy medium for you two, web based yet exports to printable formats like pdf
[02:49] <Burgundavia> There is a reason most people link to ubuntuguide.org
[02:49] <enrico> (since its best use is to be printed in a booklet to be read by someone trying out the distro)
[02:49] <Burgundavia> because it is good
[02:49] <Burgundavia> enrico: for that we would need sometime really pamphlet sized, and yes something like that would go better not-webbased
[02:50] <Burgundavia> svn and docbook are very good at what they do
[02:50] <enrico> Ok, we agree then.  I was worried you were focusing on the medium more than the goal :)
[02:50] <Burgundavia> I just don't think that is where we should be focusing our energies
[02:51] <ntoll> ubuntuguide.org isn't working for me
[02:51] <ntoll> times out
[02:51] <Burgundavia> enrico: did you see my note about possibly using ubuntuguide.org?
[02:51] <Burgundavia> ntoll: same for me
[02:51] <enrico> Burgundavia: yes, but did you discuss it nicely with Chua?  It sounded aggressive to me
[02:52] <Burgundavia> I sent an email to him
[02:52] <Burgundavia> Hey,
[02:52] <Burgundavia> I really like all the stuff you have done with your page.
[02:52] <Burgundavia> I was wondering something. This is not official, but I had a thought
[02:52] <Burgundavia> regarding documentation. Your page is already well advertised, so I
[02:52] <Burgundavia> wondered if a wiki could be installed there, and we could move the
[02:52] <Burgundavia> offical docs over there.
[02:52] <Burgundavia> As I said, this is NOT official, just me putting feelers out.
[02:52] <Burgundavia> Thanks again,
[02:53] <Burgundavia> Corey
[02:53] <egli> oh my god, move the docu to a wiki
[02:53] <Burgundavia> ah yes
[02:53] <enrico> Ok.  Although it sounds a bit like "I'm considering moving in your apartment: what do you think?" :)
[02:53] <egli> hehe
[02:53] <Burgundavia> lol
[02:54] <enrico> Chua is such a nice person, and he's been very kind with us
[02:54] <Burgundavia> ubuntuguide is really nice stuff
[02:54] <Burgundavia> if you grepped #ubuntu for it, you would be amazed at home many times it pops up
[02:54] <enrico> And he's got his big plans.  Ubuntuguide.org is how he supports free software in Malaysia (that, and ordering *5000* Ubuntu CDs to use in courses and stuff he does)
[02:54] <Burgundavia> it is also linked from the sidebar of the forums
[02:56] <Burgundavia> What I would really like to find a home for is all the unoffical stuff at the forums FAQ section
[02:56] <Burgundavia> so much of it is: install xmms|mplayer|etc. and everything will be better
[02:57] <egli> isn't there a faq section in the ubuntulinix wiki?
[02:57] <ntoll> egli, yes and it covers taht stuff
[02:57] <egli> so why a new home?
[02:57] <Burgundavia> I was doing some work on the wiki today
[02:57] <Burgundavia> The wiki currently hosts about a dozen different things
[02:57] <Burgundavia> dev chatter
[02:57] <Burgundavia> our docs
[02:57] <Burgundavia> our chatter
[02:58] <egli> that's what you get with wiki :-)
[02:58] <Burgundavia> without the tools to make it cohesive and organized
[02:58] <ntoll> hmmm... so some wiki consolidation is in order then?
[02:58] <Burgundavia> egli: no it is not
[02:58] <Burgundavia> plus having several types of markup
[02:58] <Burgundavia> one wiki for all docs, nothing else. One kind of markup
[02:58] <egli> so how do you envision these tools " to make it cohesive and organized"
[02:58] <Burgundavia> categories
[02:59] <Burgundavia> watchlists
[02:59] <Burgundavia> smaller wiki
[02:59] <Burgundavia> focused
[02:59] <Burgundavia> the only things that are going in are documentation
[02:59] <Burgundavia> makes it easier to manage
[02:59] <egli> ok
[02:59] <egli> would that imply another wiki engine than the one currently on ubuntulinux
[02:59] <Burgundavia> yes
[03:00] <Burgundavia> mediawiki, but it is php
[03:00] <egli> smth like mediawiki
[03:00] <egli> php is a no-no?
[03:00] <Burgundavia> mediawiki is under the most active development
[03:00] <Burgundavia> mark shuttleworth doesn't like it, from what I have heard
[03:00] <egli> mediawiki has all the stuff you want|
[03:00] <Burgundavia> some of it
[03:00] <egli> you want more?
[03:00] <Burgundavia> categories of are nice
[03:01] <Burgundavia> some work could be on categories to allow you to sort them on the fly
[03:01] <egli> where you get the additional functionality?
[03:01] <Burgundavia> I will take the existing functionality, because it is better than the current wiki
[03:01] <Burgundavia> oh, and one markup language
[03:01] <Burgundavia> not 4
[03:02] <egli> ok one markup makes sense
[03:02] <egli> but wikipedia also has a huge community
[03:02] <Burgundavia> and then in the svn would be any docs we already have, plus things like marketing brochures
[03:02] <egli> with the community mediawiki works
[03:03] <Burgundavia> wikipedia currently has about 6 developers
[03:03] <egli> with just a small community svn + db might work better
[03:03] <egli> by community I mean the contributors of content
[03:03] <Burgundavia> but you would then miss the advantages of a wiki
[03:03] <Burgundavia> ah
[03:03] <egli> sure, yes
[03:04] <egli> but editorial control, consistence of wording etc
[03:04] <Burgundavia> writer says "user needs doc on installing blah" write blah publish blah
[03:04] <Burgundavia> time ~1 day at most
[03:04] <egli> wouldn't that be achieved better in db + svn
[03:04] <Burgundavia> egli: that can be achieved with a wiki
[03:04] <Burgundavia> remember that this wiki would only be docs
[03:04] <Burgundavia> so very low volume
[03:04] <egli> also because you have the entire content at your displosal, offline
[03:05] <Burgundavia> so one or two people could just check everything that goes in. IE, just be watching the pages after the edit happens, not before
[03:05] <Burgundavia> offline is the bigger issue
[03:05] <Burgundavia> that is why a good HTML to PDF thingy is needed
[03:05] <egli> how many pages do we talk about? does that scale?
[03:06] <Burgundavia> does a wiki scale?
[03:06] <Burgundavia> In this English version, started in 2001, we are currently working on 494009 articles.
[03:06] <egli> Burgundavia: you'll never get a good html to pdf thingy
[03:06] <Burgundavia> does a community scale? yes
[03:06] <egli> no I mean in ubuntu doc. how many pages
[03:07] <egli> maybe you could get a decent mediawiki markup to pdf thingy
[03:07] <Burgundavia> for the total amount? I have no idea
[03:07] <enrico> Burgundavia: so the problem you point at is not the domain name, but that the current wiki sucks
[03:07] <Burgundavia> yes
[03:07] <egli> scale in the sense of somebody whatchlisting all the pages
[03:07] <Burgundavia> ubuntuguide.org would be icing on the cake
[03:08] <Burgundavia> that depends on how many people edit
[03:08] <Burgundavia> I currently watch 819 pages in WP
[03:08] <Burgundavia> I get about 15~20 edits a day to review
[03:08] <Burgundavia> of which most are small
[03:09] <Burgundavia> there are some major techical hurdles to overcome become we could do this fully
[03:09] <Burgundavia> and svn/docbook would never go away
[03:10] <enrico> Burgundavia: that (making a new wiki) wouldn't be appreciated, though, because the company's policy is to try and fix what one has
[03:10] <enrico> So I suggest first to ask for the name of someone that takes care of improving/fixing the wiki
[03:10] <Burgundavia> enrico: But we are talked 2 different audiences here
[03:11] <Burgundavia> enrico: I have been doing some work and will continue to do so
[03:11] <Burgundavia> but changing the wiki fundamentally, which would be required, would require buyin from the entire wiki user community, and a lot of work
[03:11] <Burgundavia> plus the wiki doesn't do multi-lang very well
[03:12] <egli> you mean the current wiki?
[03:12] <enrico> Burgundavia: that's still "this wiki sucks, let's make a new one"
[03:12] <Burgundavia> The reason I want a seperate wiki is beyond this wiki sucks
[03:12] <enrico> I quite agree that this wiki needs improvements: I'm just telling you what I see as the best way for getting it in this context
[03:12] <Burgundavia> I want a seperate wiki because it is "world facing"
[03:13] <Burgundavia> we also need something for the devs to use
[03:13] <Burgundavia> and us to chatter amongst ourselves
[03:13] <Burgundavia> it is like have a workshop and a boardroom
[03:13] <Burgundavia> you don't generally mix them
[03:13] <enrico> Why is it bad to share the wiki with the devels?
[03:14] <Burgundavia> yes
[03:14] <Burgundavia> boardroom != workshop
[03:14] <enrico> That metaphore doesn't necessarily hold for the wikis
[03:14] <Burgundavia> sorry why
[03:14] <Burgundavia> we all need the wiki for different reasons
[03:15] <Burgundavia> Ours needs to look good, with a wiki language that allows a lot of presentation markup
[03:15] <enrico> but wikis work better when different communities coehist in the same wiki, as that allows creativity to happen also in the border cases
[03:15] <Burgundavia> theirs needs to be fast and easy, but doesn't need much presentation markup
[03:16] <enrico> Ours need to be fast and easy, too.  People weren't writing much in ReST: we moved to Moin just because of that
[03:16] <Burgundavia> But our Doc wiki is really only a wiki because that is easy. It is really nicely formated stuff that happens to exist there
[03:16] <enrico> our, which one?
[03:16] <Burgundavia> our "new" wiki for the public
[03:16] <enrico> our?
[03:17] <Burgundavia> The Doc Team wiki for putting docs up for the public to read
[03:17] <Burgundavia> which is mostly what it would be doing
[03:17] <enrico> Have you discussed that with someone from Canonical?
[03:17] <Burgundavia> no
[03:17] <Burgundavia> I have just being throwing ideas around right now
[03:17] <enrico> Thought so :)
[03:18] <Burgundavia> I wanted to get buyin from the doc team, so we could ask as the doc team
[03:18] <Burgundavia> or not get buyin, in which case I drop the idea
[03:18] <enrico> Burgundavia: we've had regular sessions of "wiki sucks, let's have a new one"
[03:18] <Burgundavia> but it has gone nowhere
[03:18] <Burgundavia> wiki still sucks
[03:19] <enrico> That's why what I suggest is to get the name of someone that maintains the wiki
[03:19] <Burgundavia> I have specifics that I would like to see changed
[03:19] <Burgundavia> I would happily work with them to get it done
[03:19] <enrico> Burgundavia: at the docteam meeting, let's ask for this name, and discuss your specifics
[03:19] <Burgundavia> ok
[03:20] <Burgundavia> I was kind of wait too
[03:20] <Burgundavia> but others brought it up, so I thought I would explain my ideas
[03:20] <Burgundavia> s/wait/waiting
[03:22] <enrico> It wouldn't be bad to put down, together with the others, a list of "why it sucks", "what it's blocking" and "what it would need"
[03:22] <enrico> Then post a URL to that during the meeting
[03:22] <Burgundavia> ok
[03:23] <Burgundavia> what about the list, just I list specifics there right now to generate input?
[03:23] <enrico> sure!
[03:23] <enrico> You could use a wiki page to collect input
[03:24] <Burgundavia> sending soon
[03:24] <Burgundavia> lol
[03:24] <enrico> I think those three points ("why it sucks", "what it's blocking" and "what it would need") are all quite important
[03:26] <Burgundavia> ok
[03:38] <Burgundavia> sent a note to the list
[03:38] <enrico> Burgundavia: cool!
[03:39] <Burgundavia> enrico: I still think a completely different wiki for presentation docs is vital
[04:43] <BuffaloSoldier> hello everyone
[04:44] <Burgundavia> hey
[04:46] <Burgundavia> what brings you to ubuntu-doc?
[04:47] <BuffaloSoldier> just checking out what are you guys up to
[04:47] <BuffaloSoldier> :)
[04:47] <Burgundavia> well
[04:47] <Burgundavia> the quickguide is coming along quite nicely
[04:48] <Burgundavia> you can grab it from the repos
[04:48] <Burgundavia> ubuntu-quickguide
[04:58] <Burgundavia> BuffaloSoldier: any other questions?
[04:59] <BuffaloSoldier> nothing so far :)
[05:00] <Burgundavia> if you have anything you think should be changed, email ubuntu-doc about it
[07:05] <mdke_laptop> hi :)
[07:08] <Burgundavia> hey
[07:15] <Burgundavia> anything new and interesting?
[07:16] <mdke_laptop> not from me
[07:16] <mdke_laptop> just got home from school
[07:16] <Burgundavia> did you see the post on the list about improving the wiki?
[07:17] <mdke_laptop> yeah but haven't looked properly yet
[07:17] <mdke_laptop> lemme check it out
[07:19] <mdke_laptop> i have like 20 to get through
[07:21] <mdke_laptop> ok read
[07:21] <mdke_laptop> Burgundavia, mostly good stuff
[07:21] <mdke_laptop> one thing concerns me
[07:21] <mdke_laptop> would it be difficult to export the current content to a new wiki?
[07:25] <Burgundavia> There really isn't that much in the current wiki that would really be necessary to move
[07:25] <Burgundavia> Remember, the wiki is only from docs
[07:25] <Burgundavia> nothing more
[07:26] <mdke_laptop> hmm
[07:26] <mdke_laptop> there is a lot of stuff in the wiki
[07:26] <Burgundavia> no dev chatter, none of that
[07:26] <Burgundavia> most of the stuff in the wiki is not docs
[07:26] <mdke_laptop> don't forget other language docs
[07:26] <Burgundavia> they can be moved if necessary
[07:26] <mdke_laptop> right
[07:26] <mdke_laptop> i'm on the italian list
[07:27] <mdke_laptop> we were intending to consolidate lots of docs in the wiki
[07:27] <Burgundavia> I would wait
[07:27] <Burgundavia> this Sat. is the big meeting
[07:27] <Burgundavia> doc meeting that is
[07:27] <mdke_laptop> yes
[07:37] <mdke_laptop> well at the moment there are lots of italian docs in the wiki, and some others on various other sites
[07:43] <Burgundavia> there are a number of scattered sites that have docs
[07:43] <Burgundavia> the most common on the english side is ubuntuguide.org
[07:45] <mdke_laptop> hmm
[07:45] <mdke_laptop> too much scatter
[07:45] <Burgundavia> if you make the wiki cross language and suppor that well, then more of this will come together
[07:45] <mdke_laptop> heh
[07:48] <Burgundavia> have you seen the multi-lang stuff at wp?
[07:49] <mdke_laptop> yes
[07:49] <Burgundavia> It could use some work in terms of visiblity, but the ideas are very sound
[07:50] <Burgundavia> the other issue with cross lang there is different layouts of the pedia
[08:02] <mdke_laptop> hmm
[08:02] <mdke_laptop> well if the content is easy to transfer I will continue trying to sort out the italian section
[08:05] <Burgundavia> continue to work on the existing stuff. I would just be hesitant about wholesale addition of new stuff
[08:05] <mdke_laptop> well its just copy and paste from other sites really
[08:05] <mdke_laptop> but it needs structural work as well
[08:05] <mdke_laptop> i'll do a bit
[08:05] <mdke_laptop> i'm still trying to get the hang of the politics in the italian team
[08:05] <mdke_laptop> ;)
[08:06] <Burgundavia> are you italian?
[08:06] <mdke_laptop> no
[08:06] <mdke_laptop> english
[08:07] <mdke_laptop> but i have lived in italy and wanna help out their team
[08:07] <Burgundavia> ok
[08:09] <mdke_laptop> i wanna steer clear of politics tho
[08:10] <Burgundavia> I agree
[08:11] <mdke_laptop> even in linux, it exists
[08:12] <mdke_laptop> my god these wiki languages are crazy
[08:12] <mdke_laptop> moinmoin is appalling
[08:13] <Burgundavia> it is
[08:13] <Burgundavia> another reason to move wikis
[08:14] <Burgundavia> I have to catch some sleep
[08:14] <Burgundavia> talk to you again soon
[09:40] <mdke_laptop> evening enrico
[09:40] <mdke_laptop> *_
[09:41] <enrico_> mdke_laptop: hi!
[09:41] <mdke_laptop> how goes it?
[09:42] <enrico_> mdke_laptop: about to dive deep into work
[09:42] <mdke_laptop> ok
[09:42] <mdke_laptop> tuffati pure
[09:42] <enrico_> :)
[09:42] <enrico_> I haven't done anything today (yet)
[09:42] <mdke_laptop> ouch
[09:42] <enrico_> and it's evening (which is bad)
[09:42] <mdke_laptop> 21.42
[09:43] <mdke_laptop> what did you do during the day?
[09:43] <enrico_> This morning I was called to talk in a high school about the new atypical jobs
[09:43] <enrico_> that is, the new kinds of fixed-term contracts one has nowadays
[09:43] <mdke_laptop> so you have done something today!
[09:43] <enrico_> that is, "please don't have any long-term plans in your life"
[09:44] <mdke_laptop> lol
[09:44] <mdke_laptop> there are jobs in italy?
[09:44] <enrico_> you need to teach high school students that they will need to fight for the bread, nowadays
[09:44] <mdke_laptop> :(
[09:44] <mdke_laptop> tell them to come to England
[09:44] <mdke_laptop> land of the plentiful
[09:45] <mdke_laptop> before we close our borders
[09:45] <enrico> England?  I recall that wasn't very nice-looking for job-seekers that would like to have a family
[09:46] <mdke_laptop> yeah i'm just kidding
[09:46] <enrico> lots of fixed-term, decaying social services, stuff like that
[09:46] <mdke_laptop> hmm
[09:46] <mdke_laptop> its not a great place actually
[09:46] <mdke_laptop> i want to move to italy
[09:46] <enrico> There are jobs in Italy, yes, if you'd like to be exploited
[09:47] <enrico> Try googling for "serpica naro" in English sites only
[09:47] <enrico> Like, in google news, or in The Guardian (hoping The Guardian covered it)
[09:47] <mdke_laptop> ok
[09:48] <enrico> nothing on the Guardian
[09:48] <mdke_laptop> why english only?
[09:49] <mdke_laptop> Chi e' la sconosciuta stilista giapponese Serpica Naro che chiude la settimana della moda milanese?
[09:49] <mdke_laptop> ""
[09:49] <enrico> Oh, RIGHT!  You know Italian
[09:49] <enrico> That's a funny story
[09:49] <mdke_laptop> lol
[09:50] <mdke_laptop> enrico, you have something I could do to help the docteam?
[09:51] <enrico> http://www.chainworkers.org/dev/#
[09:52] <enrico> We invented a saint to protect precarious workers (that is, all the fixed-terms and similar things)
[09:52] <mdke_laptop> you were involved?
[09:52] <enrico> No, but I do have the San Precario icon in my wallet :)
[09:52] <enrico> It's got a prayer as well
[09:52] <mdke_laptop> lol
[09:52] <mdke_laptop> brb
[09:54] <enrico> To help the docteam... what I see could be needed now is to hack a bit in the documentation of single applications
[09:54] <enrico> like, the things in /usr/share/doc
[09:54] <enrico> like, the things in /usr/share/doc/<package>
[09:54] <enrico> however, we don't have cool infrastructure to handle it atm
[09:55] <enrico> what's doable is having a read to the documentation of some app you know, and if it is lacking, apt-get source <packagename>, hack on it, then send a patch to the author
[09:55] <enrico> that's still a bit of a pioneer effort
[09:56] <enrico> saturday we'll discuss a bit of these things at the docteam meeting
[09:56] <mdke_laptop> i'll turn up
[09:56] <enrico> Or, wiki gardening
[09:56] <mdke_laptop> i like wiki gardening
[09:56] <mdke_laptop> is it helpful?
[09:56] <enrico> wiki gardening is always very needed
[09:56] <enrico> It's very helpful
[09:57] <mdke_laptop> do people still use wikis tho?
[09:57] <mdke_laptop> because ubuntuguide is really the bible for n00bs ;)
[09:57] <enrico> There are wiki pages that need some proofreading (maybe in light of new Hoary changes); some that need to be merged; some that need to be deleted altogether
[09:57] <mdke_laptop> i'd like to help if I can
[09:58] <mdke_laptop> can i delete the Docbook wiki now? I merged the content into DocBook
[09:58] <enrico> If you click on "wiki contents", you see an overview of everything in the wiki: there you can see if there are things misplaced or which have no sense anymore
[09:58] <mdke_laptop> hmm
[09:58] <mdke_laptop> ok
[09:59] <enrico> Yes, please delete it; but first, check the backlinks and fix the referring page to point to DocBook
[09:59] <mdke_laptop> have done
[09:59] <enrico> then by all means please delete it
[09:59] <mdke_laptop> corey is right tho, this wiki sucks
[09:59] <enrico> I like deleting pages from the wiki :)
[09:59] <enrico> Oh, it does!
[09:59] <mdke_laptop> its so annoying to have to keep logging in
[10:01] <mdke_laptop> damn cookies don't work
[10:02] <mdke_laptop> and the language... *shudders*
[10:03] <sivang> mdke_laptop: we have a docbook wiki? :)
[10:04] <mdke_laptop> two
[10:04] <mdke_laptop> now one
[10:04] <enrico> mdke_laptop: it's been agreed to use MoinMoin as the markup of choice
[10:04] <mdke_laptop> enrico, yeah it seems to be standard
[10:04] <enrico> mdke_laptop: (unless for some pages which are in ReST for some reason)
[10:04] <mdke_laptop> but its so disturbing i'm almost tempted to use html
[10:04] <enrico> mdke_laptop: however, MoinMoin is the markup of choice for the Docteam
[10:04] <mdke_laptop> ;p
[10:05] <mdke_laptop> enrico, i'm converting anything i see into MoinMoin
[10:05] <mdke_laptop> tranquillo
[10:05] <mdke_laptop> sivang, hi btw
[10:05] <mdke_laptop> i'm matt
[10:05] <enrico> mdke_laptop: meet sivang 
[10:06] <enrico> sivang: meet mdke_laptop 
[10:06] <mdke_laptop> the "matt" nick was taken i'm afraid
[10:07] <sivang> mdke_laptop: pleased to meet you mdke_laptop 
[10:07] <mdke_laptop> lol
[10:07] <mdke_laptop> :)
[10:07] <sivang> enrico: hi enrico, what's up? 
[10:07] <enrico> sivang: I was planning to dive deep into working
[10:07] <enrico> as usual, IRC isn't helping on that
[10:07] <sivang> (althought he get's addicted to bug squashing)
[10:08] <sivang> enrico: yeah, I have to shut it off whenever I am trying to do anything substantial
[10:08] <mdke_laptop> heh
[10:08] <enrico> mdke_laptop: sivang is our mascotte: he hangs in the channel saying he's sorry for not helping the docteam but promising he'll do it soon :)
[10:08] <mdke_laptop> lol
[10:08] <sivang> enrico: btw, we still have the bug that we cannot put the documentation to a nice palce at front right?
[10:08] <enrico> sivang: sure!
[10:08] <sivang> enrico: hehehe
[10:08] <mdke_laptop> that is the worst bug of all
[10:08] <mdke_laptop> brb
[10:09] <sivang> enrico: well, I at least promise to help on such matters like registerting the docs, I will try bugger up shawnm for the release about it
[10:10] <enrico> sivang: oh, yes, please!
[10:10] <enrico> sivang: I'm clueless on that
[10:11] <sivang> enrico: I promise to do that, really, shawn is already used to me bugging him alot :)
[10:11] <sivang> enrico: s/promise/promise to do my best to try and achive these, not accounting force major stuff/
[10:11] <sivang> :-)