=== mdke_laptop [~mdke_lapt@mdke.user] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:09] evenin'all === Burgundavia [~Burgundav@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:53] hmm [01:53] not much of a sleep Burgundavia [01:58] I got 9 hours [01:58] from sorry 7 [01:58] from 9am to 4pm local [01:58] LOL [01:58] crazy [01:58] got the cool new theme? [01:59] huh? [01:59] do you run hoary? [01:59] yes [01:59] is the human theme changed? [01:59] have you updated today? [01:59] yes [01:59] yes, the progress bars are now brown and other cool things [01:59] yes i thought i noticed a difference [01:59] kewl [01:59] I like it [02:00] should we both with new screenshots? [02:00] ? [02:00] things now look different [02:00] right [02:01] I think we can simply leave it [02:01] oh [02:01] you mean bother [02:01] gotcha now [02:01] oh [02:01] yet [02:01] nah its cool to leave i think [02:01] s/yet/yes [02:01] lol [02:01] my typing tends to suck === mdke_laptop rubs sand out of Burgundavia 's eyes [02:02] why are you all trying to take care of me [02:02] sorry [02:02] I am 22 dammit [02:02] its in my own interests [02:02] 22 huh [02:02] i'm 23 [02:03] anyhow no offence intended [02:04] none taken [02:04] it takes a long more than that to offend me [02:05] heh [02:06] what I really like about the new theme is how warm everything became [02:06] just a hint of brown in all the grey [02:07] haven't really noticed the difference yet [02:07] lemme restart some stuff [02:07] aha [02:07] that's better [02:08] its a bit bright [02:08] good tho [02:11] evolution looks great with it [02:14] ok sleep for me [02:14] nite [02:14] cya === Burgundavia [~Burgundav@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud-away is now known as froud [07:14] hey === froud is now known as froud-away === maskie [~maskie@196-30-108-28.uudial.uunet.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === abelli [~abelli@host-84-222-39-20.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud-away is now known as froud [09:55] Burgundavia: hi [09:55] much better, now that we are discussing changes [09:56] mdke: /j irssi [09:57] hey [09:57] hey [09:57] patches look much better too :-) [09:58] nice small [09:58] of course it's easier when you have access [09:58] welcome [09:59] Are you advocating calling them programs or apps? [09:59] For GUI they are apps [09:59] for DOS/SHELL they are programs [09:59] but to a user that distinction doesn't exist [10:00] Genral documentation style guides such as that of Sun [10:00] use this distinction [10:00] I am saying that almost all users (the great unwashed) use program [10:00] that is our target audience, not power users [10:01] Windows users call GUI apps Applications [10:01] power users do [10:01] Its a Windows app [10:01] not a windows program [10:01] its a DOS program [10:01] from my time in the trenches of helpdesk, I heard the 2nd more often then not [10:01] that is the generally accepted convention [10:02] I understand the distinction myself, but I am saying that it doesn't exist in users minds [10:02] non-power non-developer users [10:02] Because histrorically there was a change in use of terms [10:02] we should stay with the change [10:02] but the change is to program [10:03] All styleguides make this distinction [10:03] no the change was from program to app [10:03] what does not define a language in a style guide [10:03] one defines it in the street, and that I what I hear [10:03] when the windows world came the term program was replaced with application [10:03] this is a question of style [10:04] no authors use styleguides [10:04] they are our standards [10:05] maybe in developers minds, but not in users [10:06] application program [10:06] n : a program that gives a computer instructions that provide [10:06] the user with tools to accomplish a task; "he has tried [10:06] several different word processing applications" [syn: application, [10:06] applications programme] [10:06] The Free On-line Dictionary of Computing (27 SEP 03) [foldoc] [10:06] application program [10:06] [10:07] (Or "application", "app") A [10:07] complete, self-contained program that performs a specific [10:07] function directly for the user. This is in contrast to system [10:07] software such as the operating system kernel, server [10:07] processes and libraries which exists to support application [10:07] programs. [10:07] [10:07] Editors for various kinds of documents, spreadsheets, and [10:07] text formatters are common examples of applications. Network [10:07] applications include clients such as those for FTP, [10:07] electronic mail, telnet and WWW. [10:07] [10:07] The term is used fairly loosely, for instance, some might say [10:07] that a client and server together form a distributed [10:07] application, others might argue that editors and compilers [10:08] were not applications but tools for building applications. [10:08] [10:08] One distinction between an application program and the [10:08] operating system is that applications always run in "user [10:08] mode" (or "non-privileged mode"), while operating systems and [10:08] ok [10:08] related utilities may run in "supervisor mode" (or "privileged [10:08] mode"). [10:08] I understand what you are saying [10:08] [10:08] The term may also be used to distinguish programs which [10:08] communicate via a graphical user interface from those which [10:08] are executed from the command line. [10:08] Note [10:08] The term may also be used to distinguish programs which [10:08] communicate via a graphical user interface from those which [10:08] are executed from the command line. [10:08] not everything need be a debate [10:08] :-) [10:10] I am doing some digging on places like tucows and download.com [10:10] I have come across 1 entry of app to for every 10-20 of program [10:10] you dont give up do you [10:10] even when present with std's [10:11] do waht every you want [10:11] standards reflect what people say [10:11] I am tenancious [10:12] I don't mean to offend. I am looking to create the best document possible [10:12] that means easy to understand terminology [10:13] adhere to std create consitant usage and avoid conflict and confusion [10:13] This another street vs university thing [10:13] I like standards, that reflect common usage [10:14] and FOLDOC does not [10:14] so why not just write using colloquial language? [10:14] Like Howzit dude, hope you are bopping today. Found Synaptic today, it toatally rocks [10:15] there can be a happy medium [10:15] where is the cut-off point [10:15] I don't think I have explained myself correctly [10:15] Morning guys [10:15] You can be simple and consise, using common english words, without descending into street language [10:15] As authors of user manual there are known conventions we adhere to [10:15] morn [10:16] morn [10:16] I am at it again [10:16] stirring [10:16] yet another hot debate for your entertainment [10:16] well the let's put :-) ;-) :-/ [10:16] into the docs === c_ [~abelli@host-84-222-39-20.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:17] wow c flat [10:17] what a note [10:17] http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=application&word2=program [10:17] I mean that is non-serious sort of way [10:18] oh please dude, because the majority of people don't know the diff and which is correct does not make it right [10:18] and that thing is not based on any context [10:19] or how about: http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=application+kills+kittens&word2=program+kills+kittens [10:19] I think it is funny, but no weight [10:20] there is a distinction between a proscritive and a descriptive dictionary [10:21] s/proscritive/proscriptive [10:23] froud: I follow the will of the doc team. I am merely trying to raise points of debate, in the hopes of asking questions that might not have been asked before [10:23] At no point am I trying to offend anything that has already been done [10:24] make that anything that anybody has already done [10:37] Kinnison: ping [10:38] Burgundavia: any idea about htmlizing man pages? [10:38] I have never done it, but I imagine there would be tools for it [10:39] Burgundavia: yeah.. the problem is finding them:( [10:40] c_: there is a program in universe called man2html [10:40] it seems to generate them on the fly though [10:41] ive installed it.. [10:41] but i can't find it.. [10:42] Burgundavia: what do you want? [10:42] well I drove froud out of the doc team [10:43] http://linux.com.hk/PenguinWeb/manpages.jsp [10:43] abelli: that will view fedora core 1 pages [10:43] i n33d the d4rm ion3 man... [10:43] :(( [10:43] Burgundavia: however, many thanks [10:44] I will keep looking [10:44] Kinnison: any idea? [10:45] abelli: about what? [10:46] htmlizing man pages. [10:49] ion3 man page [10:55] If you install the man2html package then zcat /usr/share/man/....ion3.?.gz | man2html > /tmp/ion3.html should do the trick [10:55] The hyperlinks will be a bit crud; but it should do the trick [10:58] Kinnison: unbelievable. [10:58] Kinnison: i owe you a pizza. [10:58] did it work? [10:59] mmm [10:59] nice [10:59] have to remember that [10:59] dunno, but are you saying that the Master might be wrong? [11:00] Who is 'the Master' ? [11:00] you.. [11:00] there's a problem.. === Kinnison blushes [11:00] ive installed man2html's package.. [11:00] but it's not in PATH [11:00] and i can't find it [11:01] dohhh.. [11:01] myfault. [11:01] dpkg will tell you [11:01] It *ought* to be /usr/bin/man2html [11:02] dehiho it works === froud [~froud@ndn-165-131-148.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud [~froud@ndn-165-131-148.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Konversation] [11:04] 1 pizza, 3 SAMUEL SMITH'S OLD BREWERY PALE ALE BEER [11:05] Gosh [11:05] You'd better bring it over; I need lunch [11:08] Kinnison: mm ill coming to london in the near future.. [11:08] but not now, i'm sorry [11:08] abelli: Then when you do; we'll have to meet up and say "hi" === Kinnison can get to london on about 2h notice [11:08] sure [11:08] mmm ill be telling u that far earlier .. [11:09] lib_malloc.so [11:09] what package are in ? [11:11] btw does someone here know what burning app is going to be "supported" and if so, is it for hoary or h+1? [11:39] abelli: they are talking about gnomebaker and/or graveman [11:40] Burgundavia: i sincerely like graveman.. which one is winning? [11:41] no idea [11:41] Burgundavia: thank you === c_ [~abelli@host-84-222-39-20.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #ubuntu-doc === abelli [~abelli@host-84-222-39-20.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mercurus [~mercurus@PIPP-p-144-134-201-104.prem.tmns.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === abelli [~cenerento@host-84-222-39-20.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #ubuntu-doc === ntoll [~ntoll@62.232.39.9] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:31] hi [02:31] hey [02:31] I just saw the comments about docs for windows migrators [02:31] that would be me who made it [02:32] on the ubuntu-users list [02:32] the 2nd that is === Kinnison wonders if he has to tell Burgundavia to go to bed [02:32] Kinnison: yep [02:32] Burgundavia: Dude; seriously; re-set your body clock [02:32] yup, I recognise the name [02:32] Kinnison: I have ;) [02:32] Burgundavia: to what timezone? [02:32] no idea [02:32] tsk [02:33] Burgundavia, where are you? New Zealand? [02:33] Canada [02:33] west coast [02:33] 5:33am here [02:33] Burgundavia, aha, that explains it... anyway.... === egli [~egli@gate.wyona.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:33] I gather you posted the initial stuff to the list? [02:34] reset it to :Canada/Pacific [02:34] nope [02:34] oh [02:34] but I've done something similar for a lug I used to belong to [02:34] right now string freeze is several days away [02:34] a doc like that will have to miss Hoary [02:34] but there is no reason why we couldn't do something on the web [02:35] Burgundavia, I quite agree, some sort of wiki like collab tool [02:35] unfortunately, the current ubuntu wiki "could use some work" to say [02:35] anyway, I'd be interested in getting involved in helping to write the doc [02:36] most of the pieces are already there [02:36] for the doc or the wiki? [02:36] Burgundavia, if the doc where can I find it? [02:36] install the package quickguide to see our latest work [02:36] aha [02:36] brb telephone [02:36] might be ubuntu-quickguide or something [02:38] o.k. off the phone now.... [02:38] is it html? [02:39] so primarly the docs are written in docbook, and parsed in yelp [02:39] aha [02:39] I am advocating moving to more web based system [02:39] but a good wiki is needed [02:40] so for the switchers doc [02:40] I see [02:40] we have an issue is that in some countries screenshots are copyright the program owner [02:40] ie. m$ [02:41] hmph.... that sucks hard [02:41] however, we may be able to get away with some sort of 2 screenshots combined together with text over top [02:41] 1 from each system === enrico [~enrico@enrico.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:41] that would probably be considered a new work, and thus our copyright [02:41] what about fair use clauses [02:41] don't exist in some countries [02:42] Burgundavia: why do you want to move away from docbook? [02:42] like germany, if I remember correctly [02:42] egli: faster changes, easier changes [02:42] hmmm.... so how does everyone else get around it [02:42] ? [02:42] To the best of my knowledge, they just talk about it, without showing it [02:43] Burgundavia: what about revision control [02:43] I mean, any newspaper or magazine that publishes a screenshot [02:43] what about generation of diffrerent output formats? [02:43] egli: froud and I had a long discussion of this [02:43] egli: He raised the same points [02:43] froud = Sean [02:43] ? [02:43] yes [02:43] oh [02:43] they were good points [02:44] I say ship PDF's for those who have internet access with HTML as well [02:44] however, there is no good HTML to PDF renderer [02:44] can you not just say All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. [02:44] The rest 2005 Ubuntu document developers R' US? [02:44] I like wikis but doku ought to be a little bit formal, i.e. svn + docbook ihmo [02:44] egli: Honestly, why? [02:45] ntoll: probably, but we would need to get a lawyer check on that [02:45] i'd like to be able to trace revision history [02:45] i like to add metadata (which I can do in docbook) [02:45] Burgundavia, o.k. so how do I get involved? [02:45] egli: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vancouver_International_Airport&curid=177015&diff=0&oldid=0 [02:45] pdf can easily be generated from docbook [02:45] ntoll: here and on the mailing list ubuntu-dic [02:46] s/ubuntu-dic/ubuntu-doc [02:46] Burgundavia: how come you hate DB so much? [02:46] DB? [02:46] docbook [02:46] DocBook [02:46] I don't hate it [02:46] dicbook :-p [02:46] I just think that there are better ways of developing useful docs [02:46] Burgundavia: books? [02:46] enrico: ? [02:46] besides gnome is using db for their docu. I think sean had some scheme how this stuff could be reused [02:47] I mean, there's surely better ways to write tutorials or HOWTOs. However, can you think of better ways to write books? [02:47] so is TLDP, Sun, etc. [02:47] have you guys seen silva? (http://www.infrae.com/products/silva) Might that be of use? [02:47] but 95% of what users really need is HOWTOs [02:47] Burgundavia: yes sure wiki has revisions but it's all web based [02:47] a plone based doc store [02:48] users need small bitsized chunks, right now [02:48] mostly [02:48] how do I check my email [02:48] how do I install a new program [02:48] ntoll: oh man not another weirdo solution when we have one that works [02:48] Burgundavia: so 95% of the work won't be in DocBook. But the remaining 5%, it's got its use [02:48] I can't think about a work like the QuickGuide made with a different system [02:49] egli, weido? :-) I was trying to find a happy medium for you two, web based yet exports to printable formats like pdf [02:49] There is a reason most people link to ubuntuguide.org [02:49] (since its best use is to be printed in a booklet to be read by someone trying out the distro) [02:49] because it is good [02:49] enrico: for that we would need sometime really pamphlet sized, and yes something like that would go better not-webbased [02:50] svn and docbook are very good at what they do [02:50] Ok, we agree then. I was worried you were focusing on the medium more than the goal :) [02:50] I just don't think that is where we should be focusing our energies [02:51] ubuntuguide.org isn't working for me [02:51] times out [02:51] enrico: did you see my note about possibly using ubuntuguide.org? [02:51] ntoll: same for me [02:51] Burgundavia: yes, but did you discuss it nicely with Chua? It sounded aggressive to me [02:52] I sent an email to him [02:52] Hey, [02:52] I really like all the stuff you have done with your page. [02:52] I was wondering something. This is not official, but I had a thought [02:52] regarding documentation. Your page is already well advertised, so I [02:52] wondered if a wiki could be installed there, and we could move the [02:52] offical docs over there. [02:52] As I said, this is NOT official, just me putting feelers out. [02:52] Thanks again, [02:53] Corey [02:53] oh my god, move the docu to a wiki [02:53] ah yes [02:53] Ok. Although it sounds a bit like "I'm considering moving in your apartment: what do you think?" :) [02:53] hehe [02:53] lol [02:54] Chua is such a nice person, and he's been very kind with us [02:54] ubuntuguide is really nice stuff [02:54] if you grepped #ubuntu for it, you would be amazed at home many times it pops up [02:54] And he's got his big plans. Ubuntuguide.org is how he supports free software in Malaysia (that, and ordering *5000* Ubuntu CDs to use in courses and stuff he does) [02:54] it is also linked from the sidebar of the forums [02:56] What I would really like to find a home for is all the unoffical stuff at the forums FAQ section [02:56] so much of it is: install xmms|mplayer|etc. and everything will be better [02:57] isn't there a faq section in the ubuntulinix wiki? [02:57] egli, yes and it covers taht stuff [02:57] so why a new home? [02:57] I was doing some work on the wiki today [02:57] The wiki currently hosts about a dozen different things [02:57] dev chatter [02:57] our docs [02:57] our chatter [02:58] that's what you get with wiki :-) [02:58] without the tools to make it cohesive and organized [02:58] hmmm... so some wiki consolidation is in order then? [02:58] egli: no it is not [02:58] plus having several types of markup [02:58] one wiki for all docs, nothing else. One kind of markup [02:58] so how do you envision these tools " to make it cohesive and organized" [02:58] categories [02:59] watchlists [02:59] smaller wiki [02:59] focused [02:59] the only things that are going in are documentation [02:59] makes it easier to manage [02:59] ok [02:59] would that imply another wiki engine than the one currently on ubuntulinux [02:59] yes [03:00] mediawiki, but it is php [03:00] smth like mediawiki [03:00] php is a no-no? [03:00]