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mdke_laptopenrico, you're up late ;)02:08
enricomdke_laptop: yes02:09
enricoI started working late, I finish working late02:09
mdke_laptophow much do you sleep?02:10
enricoI try to keep on a 8 hours per night average02:10
mdke_laptopah meno male02:10
mdke_laptopme too02:10
enricomdke_laptop: long periods of less I feel they are not healthy02:11
mdke_laptopsome people seem to manage it02:11
mdke_laptopnot me tho i need sleep02:11
enricomdke_laptop: but you're up late as well :)02:11
mdke_laptopenrico, i'm a student02:12
mdke_laptopi don't have work in the morning or anything02:12
mdke_laptopi'm on GMT too02:12
mdke_laptopwell done for calming the list down02:13
mdke_laptopyour reply was very well measured02:14
enricomdke_laptop: thanks a lot02:14
enricoI just can't undestand why everyone keeps reacting like that: nothing changed, really02:15
enricoMaybe people still hasn't read my replies02:15
mdke_laptopcheck now02:15
mdke_laptopbut yeah, it was a kneejerk reaction02:16
mdke_laptophope i didn't contribute in any way02:16
enricoNo, I think Corey did all of it02:17
enricoHe has the tendency of writing "our new ideas" when it's instead his new ideas02:17
mdke_laptopmeno male02:17
enricothat scares02:17
enricoI've seen very good feedback about your wiki work so far02:18
enricoJeff wrote you a really positive mail02:18
mdke_laptopi've done nothing02:18
mdke_laptopoh ok02:18
mdke_laptopyeah he is nice02:18
mdke_laptopenrico, i'm trying to try and get an Italian wiki comunity going02:18
enricomdke_laptop: there should be one02:19
enricoI don't know their status, though02:19
mdke_laptopthere is02:19
mdke_laptopbut its stagnant02:19
mdke_laptopso i'm gonna tidy it up and import some docs and see if it will take off02:20
enricoI know there were some problems with the guy who started it, but I dont' know now02:20
mdke_laptopi haven't heard both sides of the story yet02:20
mdke_laptopbut seems there was a power struggle02:22
mdke_laptopwhatever, i'm gonna keep out of it02:29
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mdke_laptophi trickie02:34
mdke_laptoppleased to meet you02:36
mdke_laptopi'm matt02:36
trickieyou too matt!02:36
trickiei am Nick Loeve02:36
enricotrickie: hi!  You mail didn't get to the list because it was too big02:36
enricoI now seized control of the list admin interface (finally!) and approved it02:37
trickiethanks enrico02:37
trickiei should have probably just sent it to you02:37
trickiebut anyway02:38
trickiethe poxml utilities look good02:38
trickieshould help make translations easier to maintain02:38
enricotrickie: there's the tricky issue of translating the screenshots02:38
trickiei haven't used them before, but am familiar with gettext02:38
trickiei was just about to say that!02:39
enricotrickie: but I think we can smartly decide to completely overlook that problem at the moment ;)02:39
trickieenrico, ;)02:39
trickieenrico, so do you know what has been happening, ie with Sean/Corey?02:39
trickieenrico, seems to be some chaos at the moment02:39
enricoYes.  I sent various mails to the list now trying to explain that nothing really changed02:40
enricoI've contacted Sean privately telling him and asking him to please stay02:40
trickieenrico, great02:40
enricoI hope things are going to settle down02:40
trickieenrico, Yes! Me too!02:41
trickieenrico, We were going so well!02:41
enricowell, we're still going so well02:44
enricomy biggest problem is what to do after the QuickGuide just not to lose the rhythm :)02:44
trickieenrico, yep. I would like to help to get the translations happening, i can't speak any other languages, but in terms of the prcoess02:45
trickieenrico, i would also like to help Sean on the Admin Guide (if he is still on board)02:46
enricotrickie: not even Welsh or Scottish? :)02:46
enricoI think you should send a mail to Sean about your offer on the Admin Guide02:46
trickieenrico, ha ha ha i can try with Australian slang02:46
trickieenrico, ok, i'll mail him02:46
enricoDa Bonzo Guide!02:46
trickieI have to go now guys (at work!), but i will talk to soon02:47
enricoI think you'll find me in bed02:47
enricobut maybe I'll be awaye when you get out of work02:47
trickieenrico, :) no probs, see on Sat UTC02:47
trickiemdke_laptop, see ya, nice to meet ya02:48
mdke_laptopcya again02:48
Burgundaviahello all02:54
enricoHello Burgundavia 02:54
enricoBurgundavia: it seems like your plans were not that popular after all02:55
BurgundaviaI noticed that02:55
BurgundaviaWhy did all this come out today?02:57
Burgundaviawhy not earlier?02:58
enricoI think that when peple saw Sean go away, then they thought that your ideas had been accepted and all the work done would be thrown away02:58
Burgundaviabut everybody has a voice02:59
enricoBut not necessarily they want to speak.  Many are people that just joined and liked the game, but didn't feel like they wanted to lead the project.  If it went on a nice direction, then they would be fine; else, they would go elsewhere03:00
enricoThat's my feeling, at least.03:00
enricoAnd I think they understood from your mails that your proposals had been somehow approved by some powers that be03:01
mdke_laptopthe confusion is the wiki email03:02
BurgundaviaI thought I was pretty clear that I was asking for thoughts. I guess not. I will be more careful in the future03:02
enricoMe too, I've been busy elsewhere for a couple of days, and when I came back and saw all your activity I thought you've been discussing and agreeing with all the others03:02
mdke_laptoppeople understood that the wiki was to replace the current docs, whereas i believe you intention was not that at all, but simply to argue for a change in wiki engine03:02
BurgundaviaI had initially said the first, but tempered my ideas03:03
Burgundaviathat was my bad03:03
mdke_laptophence the confusion03:03
enricoI should make a ubuntu-doc report summarizing this all03:03
mdke_laptopyou see, corey said this:03:03
mdke_laptopPlease add to this list. I/Enrico hope to have a list of specific and03:03
mdke_laptopconcrete things that we can take to Canonical to get our wiki fixed.03:03
Burgundaviaand coupled with my earlier talk about wikis03:04
enricomdke_laptop: thanks for showing that!03:04
BurgundaviaI didn't put those pieces together03:04
enricoI didn't feel like writing a UBuntu=doc report at 3:04, but it seems like I should03:04
mdke_laptopenrico, leave it til the morning03:04
mdke_laptopit will be easier03:04
enricoProbably, yes03:05
mdke_laptopand more lucid ;p03:05
mdke_laptopgot work in the morning?03:05
Burgundaviayay, I fixed muine!03:05
enricomdke_laptop: got work tomorrow, flexible times03:05
Burgundavianow I need to fix the quickguide03:05
mdke_laptopok bed for me03:07
mdke_laptopi have a massive computer screen headache03:07
enricoI'll definitely go to bed now03:44
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Burgundaviahow is life?09:52
enricoBurgundavia: sleepy09:53
Burgundaviais 10am there?09:53
enricoyes, and I went to bed at around 509:55
Burgundaviastill haven't gone to bed yet09:56
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KinnisonMorning all11:15
KinnisonBurgundavia: go to bed11:15
abelliKinnison: ciao ciao ciao11:17
BurgundaviaKinnison: salut11:21
sivangKinnison:    !11:26
Kinnisonargh; it's been too long11:27
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mdke_laptopj #ubuntu-it12:11
mdke_laptopmorning anyway12:19
KinnisonMorning mdke_laptop 12:19
mdke_laptophope everyone is well12:21
=== Kinnison is; thanks. You?
mdke_laptopyes very thank12:21
KinnisonStill in Holborn?12:21
mdke_laptopi'm in bed12:21
mdke_laptopwork up late12:22
mdke_laptopi live in east london12:22
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Kinnisonjoined?! please tell me that's an autojoin and not 'cos you're *still* awake...12:54
BurgundaviaI malfed my sudoers12:56
mdke_laptopthis boy is a machine12:56
Kinnisonmdke_laptop: at this rate; I'll have to fly him over here and tie him to a bed to make him sleep12:56
BurgundaviaKinnison: do you have script with my name in it12:56
KinnisonBurgundavia: No; I don't12:57
BurgundaviaWHEN burgundavia JOINS ubuntu-doc AND time == late THEN chastise12:57
KinnisonBurgundavia: time==late when daniel==at_work12:57
Burgundaviatime being as it is12:57
mdke_laptopbut surely his body clock does not follow the hours of light12:57
=== Kinnison tried to work outside of normal hours
Burgundavianot really12:58
KinnisonI found myself sleeping 18hrs a day instead12:58
=== Kinnison only manages to work properly by sleeping at night
mdke_laptop18 hours...12:59
sivangKinnison: yes, it's a pain working like this01:01
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mdkeanyone here? quick question on the wiki04:27
enricomdke: yes04:29
mdkeenrico, the problem is this. Have a look at DocumentHowTo, under the Moin markup section. THe author has tried to make a template for a new page. But it goes wrong04:30
mdkethe problem is he uses {{{ to introduce the template04:30
mdkethen when he uses {{{ }}} within the body of the template, it closes the original {{{ tag04:31
enricooh, horrid, yes04:31
mdkeenrico, is it possible to avoid this?04:31
mdkei'm incorporating that page into HelpOnEditing04:31
mdkeit would be a shame to scrap the idea of a template because it might be useful for users04:32
mdkeenrico, ping04:36
enricomdke: I'm trying to figure out04:36
enricolittle luck so far04:36
mdkeenrico, forse non se puo fa'04:37
enricomdke: sembra di no04:38
mdkei won't include the template for now04:39
enricomdke: saving the page04:39
enricoReload it now04:39
enricoI made the best workaround I could04:39
mdkeyes fair enough04:40
mdkewill copy that04:40
mdkeyou're clever :)04:40
enricomdke: well, I would have preferred a better solution04:41
enricomdke: that's another item for WikiWishlist, though04:41
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mdkeenrico, it's probably already on there but if not i will add it04:42
mdkeenrico, HowDoc is obsolete?04:43
enricomdke: not really obsolete, but moved away during a reorganization of the docteam pages04:44
enricoI left it there because there are things to salvage before deleting the page04:44
mdkei'll salvage a few now04:45
mdkeMoinMoin is now official way forward?04:48
enricoYes, that's the default one04:54
enricoOne should have good reasons to use other formats04:54
mdkewhat is zwiki?04:54
enricomdke: the wiki we are using04:57
mdkethe default is Structured Text?05:01
enricoyes.  in WikiWishlist there is an entry (from me) asking to change that to Moin05:03
mdkeHelpPage needs to be rehashed a bit05:03
mdkewill do it later05:03
mdkebye for now05:03
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mdkehands up if you know how to insert an icon into a wiki with MoinMoin08:17
mdkeeveryone sitting on their hands eh?08:19
froudmdke: I think everyone is in a meeting08:21
mdkea dev meeting?08:21
frouddunno much about wiki, but try this08:22
froud.. image:: IconUsers08:22
froud   :alt: IconUsers where did the picture go?08:22
froud   :align: right08:22
froud   :height: 3608:22
froud   :width: 3608:22
mdkewrong language08:23
mdkethat doesn't work in MoinMoin08:23
froudas I said I dont kow much about wiki markup08:24
mdkei've trawled through the website08:24
mdkei'm slightly surprised we've chosen this markup as our default08:24
mdkeits rubbish08:24
mdkeoh well08:24
mdkei'll ask later08:24
=== froud shudders at the hint of another regilious question
KinnisonMoinMoin is common and thus well known08:24
mdkedo you know how to insert icons?08:25
=== Kinnison isn't a serious wiki user
Kinnisonyou can tell by my wiki page08:25
mdkelemme see08:26
mdkenothing wrong with that!08:26
froudisn't there a moin moin syntax document on the net somewhere08:26
mdkecan you delete my comment from it?08:26
Kinnisonwhy not find one of the pages which has an icon and check out the syntax?08:26
mdkefroud, yeah i read em08:26
mdkeKinnison i haven't found one yet, all the ones with icons use different markup08:27
Kinnisonmaybe moinmoin can't do 'em08:27
=== Kinnison looks on some moin wikis he uses
mdkeproblem is not inserting images, its inserted the images from the wiki database08:27
mdkeurl images go in ok08:27
mdkethis Alexander Poslavsky might know, is he still active?08:28
Kinnisonattachment:fooimage.jpg ?08:29
mdkelemme try08:29
mdkeon the moinmoin guide on their website it just says to use the name of the file with whitespace either side, but it doesn't seem to work08:30
KinnisonMore than anything I blame zwiki08:31
mdkewe are missing a macro i think08:32
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smoh, darn :)09:14
mdkesm is helping me with the icon issue09:14
smenrico, anyone ? what do you think about renaming all IconImages to iconimage.png ?09:14
smand fixing the pages which link them09:14
smso that moin can recognize them09:14
mdkesm, i was gonna say, it will take time to amend all the Restructured Text pages09:14
mdkeuntil then, there would have to be duplicates imo09:15
smnot too much.. how many places are these icons linked ?09:15
smnot too many I'm guessing09:15
mdkei think quite a lot09:15
mdkenot sure how to tell09:15
=== sm uses the fast zwiki skin and emacs for editing
mdkei will put it on the doc agenda09:16
mdkeand email the list09:16
smsounds good09:16
mdkei might not make the meeting tomorrow, so i'll put it on the agenda09:16
smsearch should tell us  where they are09:16
smthe wiki's search, preferably - http://ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FrontPage/searchwiki09:16
mdkegood idea09:17
mdkeyeah not too many09:17
smhmm.. quite a few09:17
mdkethat is one of the more commonly used ones09:18
mdkeif the idea is to convert pages to MoinMOin anyway, then its doable09:18
smanyway, many hands make light work, and I think it would be a better scheme09:18
mdkewill take time tho09:18
smbut should be discussed in case there is some reason for the current naming09:18
mdkewell i'll certainly put it up at the meeting agenda page09:18
smcool.. thx mdke09:19
smI'd better run09:19
mdkethank you for your help09:19
enricosm: what for?09:31
enricomoin can recognize them?09:31
enricoI've been looking for ages for a way to have moin show images!09:32
enricosm, mdke: I'm happy to see you met!09:32
smyes hi mdke.. matt ?09:32
sm<- simon09:32
smenrico: moin requires the suffix to detect that it's an image09:33
enricooh, ok!  That's why it doesn't work.  Then, yes, by all means, let's rename!09:35
enricosm you probably have noticed there's been some recent activity of people looking at the wiki09:35
enricosome feedback came, some ideas09:36
mdkehi enrico09:36
smI didn't.. where, ubuntu-doc ?09:36
enricosm ubuntu-doc, yes. and this channel.  But most of that discussion is chaotic09:37
enricothe last messages get a bit on track09:37
smI haven't been on here too much lately09:38
smI'll check the list09:38
enricoSo there'll be a docteam meeting tomorrow at 23:00UTC, and Corey Burger's collecting items about the wiki: what doesn't work, what activities are being blocked by what doesn't work, what could be done to improve09:38
smutc.. that sounds like 1500 my time09:38
smwith luck I'll make that09:38
enrico(which is a constructive way of channeling the "wiki sucks" frustration into something useful)09:39
enricosm I thought you were french?09:39
smliving in california09:39
enricoAh, ok09:39
mdkei'm gonna post the icon thing to WikiWishList tho09:40
enricomdke: there should be an item from me there about images not working in moin09:40
enricomdke: you can add to it09:40
mdkeimages work tho09:41
mdkeoh there is something in there by Alexander something09:42
mdkeand he mentioned you sm09:42
=== sm wishes people wouldn't call pages "wikis"
smbut it seems a hopeless quest :)09:43
mdkeright have added a comment to the wishlist09:47
smaha, that was you mdke >:)09:47
smin ubuntu-doc thread.. fyi I think a wiki is a collection of wiki pages09:48
smbut your call :)09:48
mdkesm, ok in future i will get it09:48
mdkesm, i am new09:48
mdkeenrico, is it cool if I add the icon issue to the meeting agenda, in case i don't make it09:48
smno problem.. thank you very much for the work09:48
mdkesm, not much done as eyt09:49
mdkei'm off home09:51
mdkec later09:51
smoh now you leave, just when I get to your "wiki engine is rubbish"...10:00
smlively discussion10:04
smI have clarifications to offer, tomorrow's chat hopefully10:05
enricomaskie: it's cool!10:11
enricomdke: it's cool!10:11
enricosm: I had something for him as well10:12
enricoI wanted do tell him "please put icons everywhere"10:12
enricoI wanted to use icons all the time, but I couldn't figure out how to do it with moin10:12
enricoNow that there is a way, I feel like it's Icon Party :)10:12
smyay :)10:17
smbe afraid.. enrico is coming with ICONS10:18
enricoI actually have no time for that10:19
enricoI would have been happy if mdke did it O:-)10:19
smdo you think anyone links to the icons besides the wiki pages ?10:20
smwell if so I'm sure they can update10:21
=== sm copies Icon* to.. what ? boot.png, bug.png, cdrom.png.. ?
smBoot.png ?10:28
smIconBoot.png ?10:28
=== sm gets cold feet
smsome have multiple words in the name10:29
enricoicon-boot.png ?10:33
smis there some doc related reason why they need to begin with icon ?10:34
enricono idea10:34
smare they standard names used in non-wiki docs also10:34
enricomaybe namespace tidyness?10:34
enricoI've never heard of guidelines about image names10:35
enriconor of common non-written practices10:35
smit's just that they seem to be standard gnome icons10:35
smI'll wait till after the meeting discussion10:36
enricosm ok10:37
smsee you10:40
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