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=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Burgundavia] : Saturday 12 March 22:00 UTC: Doc Team Meeting -- http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamMeeting20050312 || Tuesday 22 March 2005 22:00 UTC -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda || Tuesday 15 March 2005 20:00 UTC: Technical Board -- http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda. || Thursday 31 March 2005 17:30 UTC http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MOTUMeeting || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ub
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zulhey dholbach 05:29
hspranghy :)05:30
dholbachhey you two, how are you? :-)05:32
hsprangI'm fine, my flu is finally really gone today :)05:34
dholbachoh good to hear :-)05:35
hsprangi didn't tell here because there was no danger for anybody  :)05:35
dholbachi think you told me in #u-m 05:36
hsprangok.  but anyway, that was the past :)05:37
hsprang#u-m is a funny abbreviation when talking here at #u-m :)05:38
dholbachhaha, you're right05:38
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zulhey mdz 05:52
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Kamioncan we have a reminder of the agenda URL?05:53
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janihi all05:54
Nafallohi! :-)05:54
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=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Kamion] : Friday 11 March 17:00 UTC: Hoary Development Meeting -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryDevelopmentMeeting20050311 || Saturday 12 March 22:00 UTC: Doc Team Meeting -- http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamMeeting20050312 || Tuesday 15 March 2005 20:00 UTC: Technical Board -- http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda. || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel
KamionI removed the CC meeting and the MOTU meeting because they're both some time away, and the topic was full05:57
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Mithrandircan we please do the ooo2 stuff first?  I have to leave in ~1 hour and would like to contribute on that (given that it has "amd64" in the description)05:58
sivangwhen is the development meeting?05:59
mdzMithrandir: funny you should ask05:59
dholbachin 45 seconds05:59
mdzMithrandir: because doko wants to do it +30 minutes, because he'll be late05:59
sivangdholbach: ok, thanks05:59
sivangdholbach: is there a meeting now? (please excuse me)05:59
Mithrandirmdz: bah, ok, if we can do it in 30 minutes and try to make it quick, that works for me.05:59
mdzdoko: ping?05:59
mdzok, let's begin06:00
mdzis everyone here?06:00
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dholbachogra not yet06:01
dholbachbut questions regarding universe are later06:01
dholbachso i hope he turns up before06:01
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mdzfabbione: elmo thom daniels amu: jbailey doko06:01
mdzdoko said he may be late due to cebit; pinging amu and jbailey06:02
haggaidoko is next to me setting up network06:02
jbailey I'm here. =)06:03
mdzhaggai: is his ETA still 1730?06:03
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dholbachhi doko 06:04
mdzdoko_: thanks06:04
mdzdoko_: is amu with you also?06:04
haggaiamu isn't at cebit06:05
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pittiHi ogra06:05
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sivanghey ogra 06:05
mdzok, so let's begin06:05
ograhi, pumount just hardlocked my system :(06:05
mdzwe'll skip ahead to oo.o2 since Mithrandir needs to leave06:05
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mdzhaggai: would like your confirmation on this stuff as well06:06
pittiogra: ibreakify06:06
mdzmy understanding is that we have three issues to address: Java/Help, amd64 support, and bugs06:06
haggaidoko & I have just been talking about java and ant06:06
mdzany conclusions?06:06
pittimdz: not ia64?06:06
ograargh, pitti, youre right, i forgot that i used the 2.6.11 snapshot for testing.... sorry for the noise06:06
mdzpitti: not for hoary06:06
haggaiwe may have a workaround (thanks to rene) using libant instead of ant, which is already possible to get into main06:07
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mdzpitti: if it happens, great, if not, we are still OK06:07
jbaileyThibaut claims OOo works on ia64 now.06:07
mdzjbailey: 1.1.x06:07
Kamionjbailey: right, for OOo106:07
doko_libant's build-deps are installable in hoary as well06:07
mdzlibant as in libantX.Y-java?06:08
KamionI assume we aren't going for OOo2 by default?06:08
mdzor is there a libant in C or something?06:08
haggaiKamion: sabdfl is keen to get OOo2 in, and Novell are doing it too06:08
mdzKamion: sabdfl wants us to make the attempt06:08
Mithrandirjbailey: OOo1 works on ia64, yes.  I ran it off t-bone's server last night.06:08
doko_libant's dependency list is a much shorter than the one for ant06:08
wasabi_doko, did you check out the OTHER libant?06:08
wasabi_the one for ant includes non-free pieces.06:08
mdzhaggai: ant is used purely at build-time, right?06:09
doko_the patched one from fedora?06:09
haggaimdz: yes06:09
mdzhaggai: to generate the help data?06:09
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haggaimdz: no, for docbook/xml filters and scripting06:10
haggaimdz: ie not essential06:10
haggaimdz: but it would still need work to patch those out06:10
mdzhaggai: we have docbook/xml tools in main already06:10
mdzwhat would the methodology be for ant?06:10
haggaimdz: and if we're going to do work it would be imo better to do it on ant rather than patch OOo06:10
mdzbuild it and its deps using gcj, or use gij, or what?06:10
wasabi_What's up with this discussion about ant?06:10
wasabi_I have packages half made that fix Ant up.06:11
mdzwasabi_: see agenda06:11
mdzwasabi_: we've skipped to the end due to scheduling06:11
wasabi_#Other business?06:11
haggaimdz: current debian libant builds using jikes & sablevm06:11
thomwasabi_: OOo206:11
wasabi_and does not produce /usr/bin/ant06:11
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mdzwasabi_: this is an Ubuntu development meeting, the agenda is at https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryDevelopmentMeeting2005031106:12
haggaiwasabi_: that's ok I said we have a workaround for /usr/bin/ant06:12
wasabi_I am a bit afriad about doing Ant wrong. It's not just there for OOo.06:12
mdzwhat's the short list of tasks to get it building using the ant approach?06:12
haggaiwasabi_: ? I'm only trying to find a short term soln06:12
haggaimdz: get libant in main and then build OOo with it06:13
doko_mdz: libant1.6, not the current  1.5 in hoary06:14
wasabi_^ work in progress06:14
mdzhaggai: a bit less short than that.  :-) what's involved in getting libant into main, and how do we use libant in place of ant?06:14
mdzhave you already attempted to use libant in the build?06:14
wasabi_mdz, http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/JavaPackagingProgress06:14
haggaigetting into main: fix broken build06:14
wasabi_Look at the first entry.06:14
haggai*** Semantic Error: You need to modify your classpath, sourcepath, bootclasspath, and/or extdirs setup. Jikes could not find package "java.lang" in:06:15
wasabi_Ant has a lot of deps, which need to be in main too.06:15
haggairene has got OOo building with a patch he authored for libant06:15
wasabi_Almost all of Ant's depends dependend on Ant themselves. ;)06:15
mdzwasabi_: that's just bookkeeping; we need to establish the plan for actually doing the work06:15
haggaihttp://cvs.gnome.org/viewcvs/ooo-build/patches/src680/ant-only-main-classes-hack.diff?rev=1.2&view=markup is the hack at the moment.06:15
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wasabi_Well, I mean. All that needs to be done is to start pulling apart all those dependencies one after another.06:16
wasabi_What is the VM goal?06:16
mdzthere is none06:16
mdzthe goal is getting oo.o2 building06:16
haggaiwhat isn't yet clear is what to do about the needing gcj >> 3.306:16
wasabi_Ooo requires a VM, rigth?06:16
jbaileyThere's a status update from yesterday on the Fedora list (provided by Robilad) for building on gcj: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.java/14906:16
wasabi_And Ant requires one to build. So we need to pick on. Me and jbailey have been planning to use gcj4 (because it works)06:17
mdzwasabi_: <haggai> mdz: current debian libant builds using jikes & sablevm06:17
mdzhaggai: which part of this needs gcj >> 3.3?06:17
mdzand we do have gcj-4.0 available if needed06:18
haggaimdz: there are several bugs that OOo+java triggers in earlier gcjs06:18
haggaimdz: I know its available, problem is we then may need gcc/++ 3.4 or 4.0 too06:18
mdzhaggai: what about jikes+sablevm?06:19
mdzthis is very much sounding like more work than diking out ant06:19
mdzas a temporary workaround06:20
wasabi_uh huh.06:20
jbaileysablevm will probably need an update to make sure it has all the latest GUI stuff.06:20
haggaimdz: for OOo?  You really don't want to try new toolchains with OOo at this stage06:20
haggaimdz: or do you mean for ant?06:20
mdzhaggai: I mean for both06:20
doko_according to haggai, all C++ libs needed for OO are included in the sources, so C++ ABI problems shouldn't be an issue.06:20
mdzgetting ant, gcj, etc. all into harmony sounds like a better long-term solution, but what we need at this stage is more along the "short term hack" lines06:21
haggaimdz: ant is built with jikes+sablevm in debian, so I was assuming it wouldn't be a lot to use with ubuntu and was such a short hack.  I didn't mean jikes+sablevm for OOo build06:21
wasabi_Is anybody aware of the the Javaintegration wiki page and our plans for Java?06:22
wasabi_Just don't want to duplicate work here.06:22
haggaiwasabi_: we're looking for a short, very quick, hack06:23
mdzI'm weighing "get libant and its dependency chain working with jikes+sablevm or gcj, may require updating one or both, modify oo.o build to use libant, get gcj/etc. working to the point of being able to drive this part of the oo.o2 build, etc." vs. "replace the libant portion of the build with a shell script"06:23
wasabi_Okay. I get it.06:23
mdzwasabi_: we have a very specific, short-term goal here.  If hte JavaIntegration plan can do this within the next couple of days, great, if not, it isn't an option06:23
wasabi_I would then suggest making a temporary libant just for Ooo and building it with ecj-bootstrap + gcj3.06:24
doko_mdz: so, recording the gcj/gij calls made from ant, and "replay" them with the shell script?06:24
wasabi_ecj-bootstrap is in.. universe right now. It is however a very simple package... and can probably be done with gcj306:25
mdzhaggai: what about pregenerating the docs?06:25
wasabi_oh wow. that's more hacky than I wanted to get into. ;)06:25
mdzdoko_: I mean using the existing tools to do docbook/xml operations, rather than java06:25
mdzeliminating the java dep entirely06:25
haggaimdz: hmm maybe we're not talkiung about the same feature.  This is import/export support for docbook and xml formats from within OOo06:26
mdzhaggai: hmm, apparently we were not06:26
mdzhaggai: I thought you meant docbook/xml transformations for the help system data06:26
haggaimdz: ah :)06:26
wasabi_Can somebody tell me what Ant features are required for OOo?06:27
wasabi_I can check to see if I can whip something up.06:27
haggaimdz: right, no it's a special tool written in java to transform the help sources06:27
mdzoh, nice. ooffice2 crashes on startup for me now06:27
haggaimdz: if all we are interested in is the help docs, we can do this another way without enabling java in OOo itself06:27
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mdzhaggai: would this be a regression from 1.1.3?06:28
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haggaimdz: no06:28
mdzhaggai: forget it, then, let's not enable that feature06:28
mdzhaggai: and only worry about the docs06:28
haggaimdz: (we went over these things in that thread between sabdfl & I that you were cced on)06:29
mdzhaggai: yes, and now we're back to where I thought we were at the start of this conversation06:29
mdzwhich is that we're talking about building the documentation06:29
haggaiin that case I read Java/help wrong..06:30
=== haggai looks at help build scripts again
mdzhaggai: in what part of the source tree does this stuff live?06:31
haggaimdz: xmlhelp is the tool06:32
haggaimdz: has rather a lot of dependencies :(06:32
haggaixmlhelp :       ucbhelper XmlSearch sablot jut unoil berkeleydb06:32
haggaiso that's not going to be trivially easy to split out06:32
mdzok, there's more to talk about here than I thought06:33
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mdzwe need to split this out into a separate meeting06:33
mdzhaggai, doko: when can we reconvene?06:33
doko_mdz: one moment ...06:34
mdzMithrandir: the amd64-relevant bit is determining whether we can build it natively, or if it needs the oo.o2-amd64 treatment, not much more thana that06:34
MithrandirI've begun looking on amd64 and powerpc wrt ooo2, but so far it has had conflicting build-deps.  seb128 has sorted that out and is uploading {now,shortly}.  amd64 ooo2 is rumored to build, but being amazingly brittle (on amd64)06:34
Mithrandir(build with a few patches)06:34
Mithrandirmdz: sabdfl has asked me to take a look at it and give him feedback with cc to you.06:35
seb128Mithrandir: I've uploaded eds 06:35
Mithrandiras I haven't actually built it myself yet, I can't say anything about it's brittleness or not.06:35
mdzdoko_, haggai: get back to me with possible meeting times06:35
mdzwe need to move on06:35
Mithrandirso "maybe"06:35
mdzfabbione: kernel06:35
haggaimdz: ok06:35
Mithrandirbut I would be conservative and say no for now.06:35
mdzinotify or dnotify for hoary?06:36
fabbionedefault: dnotify06:36
fabbioneinotify optional as bootparameter06:36
fabbionepatches have been cleaned up in -2606:36
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fabbioneto be more robust06:36
mdzseb128: is there some other way to address the bugs which were fixed by inotify?06:36
mdziirc, the "volume icons not appearing" stuff was fixed by dnotify->inotify, and has now regressed06:37
seb128that's the other way IIRC, volumes icons should work fine with dnotify06:37
tsengthey do06:37
fabbionemdz: inotify is a better way to do dnotify06:37
tsenginotify doesnt break it, gamin does06:37
seb128inotify with the "busy drives" issue06:37
fabbioneit doesn't fix anything06:37
tsenggamin fix doesnt work on its inotify backend06:37
fabbioneit is suppose to improve performance06:37
seb128fabbione: it does06:38
mdzthe "busy drives" issue was worked around in gamin by special-casing /media, yes?06:38
seb128fabbione: no need to have a fd on the device to monitor stuff, so no drives locked06:38
tsenginotify in gamin cant use polling special case06:38
tsengso we have regression on volume icons showing up06:38
mdzok, so in fact it is fixed for dnotify only06:38
tsengbut no locking of the device as with dnotify before fix06:38
Kamionso in fact we're just better off with dnotify all round?06:38
tsengKamion: yep.06:38
tsenguntil gamin gets real support anyway06:38
fabbioneso you want me to remove dnotify as well?06:39
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seb128no no, why ?06:39
tsengerm? I think dnotify should be default atm06:39
fabbioneah ok06:39
tsengworks well with latest gamin06:39
fabbionei misread your sentence Kamion06:39
mdzthat is the bug I was thinking of06:39
mdzbut apparently the user was mistaken06:40
mdzthough I'm not entireyl convinced06:40
tsengmdz: no06:40
mdzthere are reports of the icons not appearing06:40
tsengmdz: we still get that with gamin + inotify06:40
seb128mdz: that's fixed by switching to dnotify06:40
mdzbut the user reported it with -25.2, which has inotify disabled06:40
pittimdz: I have heaps of other bugs related to this issue06:40
pittimdz: so the current situation is really broken06:40
mdzpitti: can you group them together somehow?06:41
seb128mdz: yeah, I've reassigned some of them to pitti06:41
pittimdz: I can't close them as duplicates, but I can do a metabug06:41
ogramdz: there are also reports of icons not dissapearing after unmount06:41
mdzpitti: that would be helpful06:41
tsengok can I explain breifly again? to avoid any confusion06:41
tsengabout the bug mdz posted06:41
mdzsince inotify is a bust, we need to find some other way to fix those problems, they affect many users06:41
tsengthe bug posted affected all gamin users at one point. it was fixed by falling back to polling /media/*06:42
pittiso we can use polling?06:42
tsenggamins inotify backend *doesnt support* polling06:42
tsengso the bug still exists on inotify kernels06:42
seb128forget about inotify06:42
pittitseng: I mean with dnotify?06:42
seb128we run dnotify atm06:42
tsengits fixed for everyone else06:42
tsengor, fixed for all my systems06:42
mdzthere are still an awful lot of bugs appearing around this area, as pitti says06:44
pittimdz: however, they might be from the time when we still had inotify and similar06:44
seb128yeah, we need to figure what bugs happen with dnotify and gamin 0.0.2506:44
mdzpitti: when you've collected a list, please work with tseng and seb128 and see which ones are still valid06:44
pittimdz: most of them were reassigned to me today /yesterday, I did not yet have time to evaulate06:44
pittimdz: I'll do06:44
mdzand if the remainder are significant, we can decide what to do06:44
mdzmoving on06:45
pittimdz: I think we can defer this some days, then I can actually evaluate them06:45
mdzthe other kernel item, we have occasionally discussed adding a kernel to the i386 CD06:45
fabbioneKamion: what kernel do we ship on cd?06:45
mdzfabbione: -38606:45
mdzwhich means no higmem support, and no SMP support06:45
pittiwe have ~70 MB06:45
mdzpitti: how much for the remaining langpacks?06:46
pittiin comparision to ppc and amd6406:46
fabbionei think that either we add 686 and k7 or none06:46
pittimdz: ppc would allow 42 MB for langpacks06:46
mdzKamion: can we do per-arch germination of ship?06:46
fabbioneotherwise users will be discriminated06:46
fabbionebut hounestly i really prefer to save space on CD06:46
mdzfabbione: -686 works on both06:46
elmomdz: eh?06:46
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fabbionemdz: nope...06:46
mdzherbert says otherwise06:47
fabbionenot here at least06:47
Kamionsorry, catching up, one sec06:47
Kamion-686 does not work on both as far as I know06:47
mdzthe last time we spoke about it, he said that it was not guaranteed in general, but that it was currently true06:47
fabbionemdz: that makes it an non option for me06:47
fabbionewe so do NOT want to get bugs because there is the wrong kernel installed06:48
Kamionmdz: adding a kernel is trivial, and I think a good idea; some minor base-installer improvements are needed to make it work well (i.e. proper fallback ordering)06:48
Kamionbut I already have those in progress06:48
pitti70 MB would be enough for 2 additional kernels?06:48
KamionI see no reason not to add both 686 and k7, frankly06:48
fabbioneKamion: space06:48
mdzKamion: I do; they're huge06:48
Kamionwe already have to reserve that space!06:48
Kamionbecause powerpc requires three kernels06:48
Kamionso we have to reserve the space arch-independently anyway06:48
mdzKamion: I was asking whether we could use per-arch items in ship06:48
Kamionmdz: we already do per-arch germination of ship06:49
mdzbecause we may NOT be egalitarian about this06:49
pittican a SMP kernel run on a non-SMP machine?06:49
mdzif we have room for more language support on i386, we may do that06:49
T-Bonepitti: yes06:49
thompitti: yes06:49
fabbionepitti: not always06:49
jbaileypitti: Generally.06:49
mdzpitti: yes, but with a performance penalty06:49
T-Bonewhat mdz said06:49
mdzI have no idea of the numbers06:49
T-Bonedepends on the arch06:49
fabbionesmp kernel on sparc doesn't boot on a  UP box06:49
mdzfabbione: what about highmem in -386?06:49
pittiT-Bone: I mean 38606:50
T-Bonecan amount to a few percents in general06:50
mdzis that possible?06:50
pittiwe don't have additional space on ppc/amd64 anyway06:50
lamontnonSMP allows you to stub out the mutual-exclusion that you need in SMP.. depending on the architecture, that can be anywhere from 0+ to large06:50
fabbionemdz: iirc there were several reasons for not doing it06:50
lamont(large == <10%)06:50
Kamionpitti: amd64 isn't so bad06:50
Kamionbut mdz's right, we could decide to make language support asymmetric06:50
mdzpitti: what is the total size of the remaining langpacks which are not already in ship+live?06:50
fabbionemdz: let me check.. one sec06:50
pittiKamion: oh right, mixed that up with ia6406:50
pittimdz: 45 MB06:50
Kamionmdz: note that the live CDs are currently maxed out due to the addition of WinFOSS06:50
pittimdz: (not including the support packages)06:51
Kamionmdz: amd64 is right at the limit; i386 is about 20MB below06:51
pittimdz: but we only have about 42 MB left for ppc06:51
pittimdz: we miss by a few MB06:51
Kamionand amd64 tends to grow06:51
mdzKamion: that's based on the Warty amount of winfoss, or the full set?06:51
pittimdz: however, we could strip a few packages to get them06:51
KamionI've asked Henrik to cut it down a little06:51
dholbachdumb question: are packages on the CD already using bzip2 compression?06:51
Kamionmdz: that's current, I added WinFOSS this morning06:51
hno73I'm currently uploading a win-foss pack shrunk by 7mb06:51
mdzI don't mind shipping the Warty amount at all; that was ~half the size06:51
Kamiondholbach: some are, but bzip2 has a speed penalty06:51
dholbachKamion: shouldnt it be taken into account?06:51
Kamiondholbach: we have done it for some packages based on what seemed sensible06:52
hno73I should be able to get out a further 3-4mb wihout removing more apps06:52
Kamionwhere it was most effective06:52
Kamionit's a speed/size tradeoff06:52
ogradholbach: unpacking may take ages on some systems06:52
fabbionemdz: it should be possible to enable it. but we will need to check it very carefully06:52
dholbachwell since we're short on size...06:52
mdzfabbione: ok, that doesn't sound very good for a post-preview change06:52
Kamiondholbach: size isn't everything :-)06:52
fabbionemdz: but my memory recalls something bad about it06:53
dholbachKamion : haha :-)06:53
fabbionemdz: i just do not remember what06:53
mdzcompressing the -686+ and -k7+ kernels with bzip2 is not a bad option06:53
mdzthey will only be installed on reasonably modern systems06:53
fabbionemdz: yes it is06:53
Kamionhno73: what are the app differences between what was on Warty and what's in Hoary?06:53
fabbionemdz: we did test them and we gain 006:53
fabbionemdz: the only package gaining was -doc-06:53
hno73Upgraded versions and PDFCreator removed06:53
Kamiondholbach: we compress all the language packs with bzip2; they exhibited a substantial gain06:53
fabbionemdz: compressing the images with bzip2, we lost around 5/8% on the image06:54
dholbachKamion: i can easily imagine06:54
Kamionhm, so how come Warty's was half the size of Hoary's according to mdz?06:54
fabbionewe did this test when bzip2 was brand new and shiny06:54
mdzKamion: I'm not sure what hoary's is at this point06:55
mdzKamion: what I do know is that for warty, we removed things06:55
mdzthat astronomy program, e.g.06:55
Kamionah; is hno73 up to date with those removals?06:55
dholbachgtranslator as well06:55
mdzI was asking earlier whether we are using the same set of stuff for hoary06:55
=== silbs [~jane@host217-37-231-22.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
mdzmizar:[/space/cache/apt/archives]  dpkg --fsys-tarfile linux-image-2.6.10-4-k7_2.6.10-26_i386.deb | gzip -9v >/dev/null; dpkg --fsys-tarfile linux-image-2.6.10-4-k7_2.6.10-26_i386.deb | bzip2 -9 -v >/dev/null06:56
mdz 62.9%06:56
mdz  (stdin):  3.018:1,  2.650 bits/byte, 66.87% saved, 44748800 in, 14825047 out.06:56
mdzfabbione: 62.9% vs. 66.87%06:56
fabbionemdz: the images were big and i am sure about it.06:56
fabbionei can retest it if you want06:56
hno73We removed Celestia, etc. for Warty, but it hasn't been put back in06:57
doko_mdz: we have to leave the booth around 6:45 UTC, Chris will be available tomorrow 5pm UTC for an hour or so. That time is ok for me as well (I'm at home tomorrow almost the whole time). Disscussing the help build with haggai, it looks like prebuilding the docs and including these in the package might be a short term solution as well.06:57
fabbionemdz: and you need to check using make-kpkg because it does a lot of weird magic to build the deb06:57
fabbionecompressing that way is not the same apparently06:57
hno73I've built the Hoary Win-FOSS from a Warty CD content source, just updating stuff06:57
hno73Warty size 115MB, current Hoary size 108MB06:58
fabbionemdz: anyway.. HIGHMEM on i386 for me is a too big risk right now06:59
fabbioneand adding new kernels.. up to you but do not rely on 686 works on k7-smp06:59
fabbioneor stuff like that06:59
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KamionI don't think changing base-installer to assume 686 works on k7 would be a good idea, certainly07:01
Kamionthat code ought to be safe, or it comes back to bite you07:01
amuWin-FOSS, we add it also to kubuntu?  07:01
fabbioneKamion: +107:02
Kamionin any case, the improvement appears to be 1.8MB for bzip2 of -k7 at the moment; doesn't really seem like a significant win07:02
Kamionamu: if you like, but I'm not sure you have room at the moment07:02
pittimdz: I'd rather strip some more packages, that will give us ~10 MB07:02
Kamionamu: you probably just about have room on i38607:03
amuKamion: i would like, cause it soo cool, btw. ppc is 610mb atm07:03
pittimdz: e. g. dpkg is a hog, and will be rebuilt anyway (hopefully) to fix the Replaces: bug07:03
Kamionamu: WinFOSS only goes on i386 and maybe amd6407:03
hno73amu: I can always make a version sans OOo07:03
hno73that'll work07:03
Kamionamu: ok, Kubuntu CD changes are pretty much by request of you guys FWIW07:04
T-Bonefabbione: just my 2cents but I bet that users with machine having enough ram to need HIGHMEM will update their kernel to use one corresponding exactly to their CPU anyway...07:04
amuKamion: i386 537, amd64, 557mb07:04
fabbioneT-Bone: that too07:04
=== rcliii [~rcliii@byu176783wks.rn.byu.edu] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
Kamionamu: it won't currently fit on amd64, but I'll add it to your i386 live CD07:04
T-Bone(it'd be rather silly to run i386 kernel on a Dual Xeon P4... :)07:05
amuKamion: hno73: i would like it, let's delay it, till we get an prefinal iso 07:05
Kamionamu: (better to do these things earlier rather than later in my experience, but whatever you like)07:05
amuKamion: ok, that's an better solution, pls do it like this07:05
amuKamion: ack07:06
dholbachcouldnt there be script checking if bzip2 saves at least x% and then use bzip2? so users with an old box wouldnt have the pain generally?07:06
hno73amu: email me about the Win-FOSS stuff for Kubuntu and we'll work something out07:07
amui would say, i've also some problems with the default kernel, my ltop has 2 gig ram, no prob for me maybe for others 07:07
amuhno73: cool, phone is already prefered? ;)07:08
mvodesktop now?07:09
=== sivang barely has net access, down/up streams of 20Kb/s :-(
T-Bonesivang: that's way enough for irc ;o)07:10
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amuhehe :P07:10
Treenakssivang: don't complain, I IRC using GPRS sometimes07:10
sivangT-Bone: yeah, but just about for that :)07:10
Kamionok, I think we're done with kernel07:10
sivangTreenaks: god, what's the specs from such a connection/07:11
Kamiong-a-i .desktop database07:11
Kamionwho's responsible for that?07:11
mvoKamion: is jdub around?07:11
dholbachhe said he was too tired on the list07:11
mvoKamion: ross and jdub, but ross is on vacation07:11
Kamionno, he's gone to sleep07:11
fabbionemvo: no07:11
sivangdoesn't seem so07:11
Kamionmvo: do you know the current status?07:11
mvoKamion: I branched ross archive to add i18n updates and small fixes07:11
Kamionamu: ok, you'll get WinFOSS on the next Kubuntu live-i386 build07:11
dholbachKamion: jdub said: 1) g-a-i data drop to be delivered this weekend.07:12
mvobut I don't know if jdub wants to do the .desktop stuff himself07:12
amuKamion: rock07:12
mvodholbach: ah, cool07:12
dholbachreference: http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2005-March/005473.html07:12
mvook, I'll contact jdub 07:13
Kamionok, I guess that satisfies that agenda item07:13
sivangmvo: what's in it for doing the .desktop files?07:13
mvosivang: later please :)07:13
sivangmvo: oops right 07:13
dholbachevince rocks, but somebody said it had problems with CUPS integration, but i don't know if it's exactly true07:14
thompersonally, i think we should go for evince 07:14
ograis evince matured enough ?07:14
Kamionseb128: opinion on evince?07:14
seb128evince is pretty, use gnome printing, is localized07:14
sivangseb128: misses some fonts no?07:14
Kamionthere was some talk about problems with large PDF files07:14
seb128sivang: ?07:14
pittiand sucks for large documents :-)07:14
elmo"iz pretty".  you sold me ;-)07:14
seb128elmo: look on xpdf, that's ugly07:14
thompitti: only for you07:14
sivangseb128: I recalled jdub saying something about it07:14
sivangseb128: I may be wrong07:14
pittiseb128: would it be possible to sanitize the thumbnail generation?07:14
thomsivang: that's gpdf07:14
elmoseb128: does it have gpdf's problem with fonts?07:15
Kamionoh, I wonder what happened to mdz07:15
seb128sivang: if you have evidence to point, do it, but don't come now with random idea :p07:15
elmoand/or only displaying 1/5 of the docs xpdf does07:15
ograelmo: it uses xpdf afaik07:15
seb128elmo: nop07:15
seb128it is as good as xpdf07:15
sivangseb128: ok, sorry 07:15
fabbioneKamion: when the elder are off... the mice party!07:15
seb128pitti: probably07:15
seb128pitti: we can generate them only if the side pane is open07:16
seb128or add a gconf key07:16
sivangthen what's the issue here? it looks far better and has much better and user freindly ui07:16
pittiseb128: lower priority thread07:16
seb128upstream are threading it for that, but that's not for hoary probably07:16
pittiotherwise thumbs up for evince07:16
seb128pitti: it's not threaded atm07:16
janiit doesn't seem to have 'recent documents'07:16
mvonor does xpdf?07:17
seb128jani: xpdf neither07:17
janiand I think case sensitive search07:17
janioh, was comparing to acroread ;)07:17
Kamionok, general opinion seems to be in favour of evince, if the thumbnail generation is made faster07:17
janiotherwise really nioce07:17
seb128jani: the current default is xpdf07:17
janioh better than xpdf by all means07:17
Kamionbut would like to wait to see what mdz says about switching at this late stage07:17
seb128Kamion: thumbnail is not really an issue imho07:17
mvoKamion: ++07:17
Kamionlet's move on07:17
=== dataw0lf [~dataw0lf@dataw0lf.org] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
ograugly behavior....07:18
Kamionmvo: has the gksu issue on the agenda been fixed by your upload today?07:18
mvoKamion: not, not all issues07:18
Kamionwhat are the remaining issues?07:18
seb128do we want to grab the keyboard mouse or not ?07:18
mvothe big problem is that it can go into the background and then grabs the mouse 07:18
ograit would be ok if the pointer wouldnt get stuck ...07:18
pittiseb128: why should it grab?07:19
seb128there is some bug open saying that we should not grab them ...07:19
=== pitti favors non-grab and appear in the foreground
ograi often have the angle pointer instead of the arrow locked..... 07:19
KamionI think you have to grab07:19
mvothe user clicks on sth that needs gksu and then starts something else. it may happen that the gksudo window comes up, then the other window comes up (over gksudo) and then gksudo grabs the pointer and users are very confused07:19
seb128pitti: I don't see a real reason to do it, basically kov says that's to not get something getting up and grabing the password07:19
seb128but with the new metacity ...07:19
mvoogra: angle-pointer should be fixed by the upload today07:19
Kamionnot everyone is using metacity ...07:20
pittiKamion: other apps can certainly steal the password even with grabbing07:20
seb128but is "random app can get the focus" a security issue ?07:20
Nafallowe should not grab it. shouldn't users became confused and start looking when nothing upons by clicking something?07:20
pittiseb128: why can't the window appear in the foreground, always?07:21
=== sivang thought it was logical to do that right now, since asking a password is enough important to block since it's done.
mvopitti: https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=743207:21
ograNafallo: they will hit the reset button i guess07:21
mvoit's the focus stealing stuff 07:21
seb128mvo: if you interact on something during the starting time metacity don't steal your focus07:22
Kamionpitti: it helps a bit, though; certainly ssh-askpass-gnome grabs keyboard and pointer for that reason07:22
Nafalloogra: they would if they thinks input devices hung to ;-)07:22
Kamionmdz sent me an SMS saying that he's involuntarily offline; we'll keep going07:22
pittiKamion: okay, I would at least require either grab _and_ foreground, or nothing07:22
ograNafallo: every input is locked07:22
seb128pitti: right, if we grab we need to fix the foreground07:23
pittiKamion: but I don't see why inter-process-communication should be blocked by keyboard/mouse grabbing?07:23
seb128the question is to know if we want to grab or not07:23
KamionIMHO gksu should grab the X server07:23
Kamion * There is only two run-time options: if you set the environment variable07:23
Kamion * "GNOME_SSH_ASKPASS_GRAB_SERVER=true" then gnome-ssh-askpass will grab07:23
Kamion * the X server. If you set "GNOME_SSH_ASKPASS_GRAB_POINTER=true", then the07:23
Kamion * pointer will be grabbed too. These may have some benefit to security if07:23
Kamion * you don't trust your X server. We grab the keyboard always.07:23
KamionNafallo: there'll be a password window in the foreground waiting for input; it will be obvious07:23
pittiso the only sane solution is grab+foreground07:23
Nafallohmm, me actually likes being able to open synaptic on desk #1 and when done loading change desktop and open other stuff before going back and type in password.07:24
NafalloKamion: yea, I know :-)07:24
Nafallobtw, the final decision is that it should have borders?07:24
seb128loading is that long for you ?07:24
Kamionthere seem to be clear security benefits to grabbing the X server and keyboard while requesting a password07:25
seb128what kind of box do you have ?07:25
lamontKamion: definitely07:25
pittiKamion: then the only solution seems to be clear07:25
seb128Nafallo: 07:25
mvothe problem is to teach gksu to be in the foreground all the time07:25
Nafalloseb128: nope, I just like to start all tasks I need early as possible to save battery time :-).07:25
Nafalloseb128: amd64 1,6GHz, 1GB ram, laptop07:25
seb128Nafallo: you have a -g option to gksudo to not grab the events07:25
Kamionhow about gtk_window_set_keep_above()?07:26
Nafalloseb128: ahh, kewl. didn't knew that. not an issue for power-users then :-).07:26
seb128ok, let's keep the grabing and fix the issue07:26
pittinext point?07:26
Nafalloseb128: ++ in that case :-)07:26
KamionYelp fixes needed for Hoary?07:26
seb128mvo: I'll ping the metacity guys to know of to force the first plan/focus07:27
Kamionjdub's mail sort of covered that07:27
sivangKamion: we need to make the docs more accessible form yelp toplevel07:27
seb128Kamion: jdub is working on yelp issues with the yelp author07:27
sivangKamion: if jdub already managed with that, it's cool, I have researched about it and find only half of the solution07:27
Kamionall right, that seems to be what jdub was talking about; he said he'd report this weekend or early next week07:28
=== HiddenWolf [~hidde@136.34.dynamic.phpg.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
KamionHelp topics organization07:28
ograjust for the record ^^^^07:28
Kamionis this just a subset of the previous item, or is there more?07:29
ogranope, the previous07:30
seb128dunno 07:30
Kamionthe new Ubuntu documentation is rather mixed in with stuff like the Fdutils FAQ at the moment07:30
ograoh, i thought the mail link07:30
Kamionor the documentation of the GNU time command07:30
HiddenWolfis this 'the meeting'? 07:30
sivangKamion: that was what I were talking about07:30
ograHiddenWolf yup07:30
sivangKamion: I thought that was what jdub going to fix07:31
Kamionall right, then, next item07:31
KamionScreenshot updates to reflect artwork changes?07:31
Kamionas I understand it, the Hoary artwork is not yet final, but somebody does need to take responsibility for updating screenshots07:32
KamionI don't see what we can do until the artwork's finalised, but it needs to be on a checklist somewhere07:32
dholbachsounds good07:32
amuKamion: i started once a kind of QS Document .... 07:33
Kamionby default, probably one for jdub; suggestions for good screenshots would probably be a good idea07:33
Kamionamu: QS?07:33
=== sivang has 5.26 lag :-/
amuerr QA07:33
ograKamion QA07:33
dholbachKamion: u-users@ will love to send in screenshots ;-)07:34
=== mvo needs to leave now, will read log
Kamionmdz's ISP has lost all of Southern California; there is no ETA for it returning07:34
ogradholbach: but you will have to review them a lot (to make sure the right theme is used etc.)07:34
tsengcan we replace the gdm screenshot on the homepage? heh.07:34
thomdavyd's document here: http://www.gnome.org/~davyd/gnome-2-10/ is a good example of introducing new features and how to use screenshots07:35
Kamioncloser to the time, perhaps a -users survey would be appropriate07:35
sivangKamion: sounds like it does07:35
ogratseng: i think sabdfl wouldnt like that07:35
Kamionyes, the GNOME 2.10 notes were very good at that07:35
tsengyou know davyd uses ubuntu, he might be up for the job :)07:35
Kamionamu: ok, that seems very appropriate for later in the agenda07:35
Kamiontseng: good idea; can somebody talk to him?07:36
thomhe just went to bed07:36
thomi'll ping him later07:36
Kamionthere will be more than GNOME to cover07:36
KamionContent review07:36
Kamionagain, this is one that jdub said he would do07:37
Kamionbut please can everyone responsible for Hoary features review the release notes and other documentation07:37
=== mdz [~mdz@ca-studio-bsr1o-251.vnnyca.adelphia.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
seb128wb mdz07:37
Kamionand send the documentation team updates for features they were responsible for07:37
Kamionmdz: hello again, we're up to Content review07:38
jbaileyIs http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~mako/docteam/release-notes/release-notes.html the best source for the release notes?07:38
enricojbailey: it is THE resource07:38
Kamionjbailey: I believe the documentation team have svn too07:38
enricowell, ok, svn07:38
ogramdz wb07:38
mdzyay, back07:38
mdzKamion: can you paste me a log?07:38
mdzyes, svn seems like a better source07:38
Kamionenrico: all developers should be entirely capable of using that :-)07:39
Kamionmdz: what was the last thing you saw?07:39
mdzKamion: --> silbs (~jane@host217-37-231-22.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined #ubuntu-meeting07:39
makojbailey: it's updated about once a day07:39
mdz1755 UTC07:39
jbaileymako: Cool, thanks.07:39
Kamionmdz: mail ok? there's a lot of it07:41
enricook, I'm in07:41
mdzKamion: yes07:41
enricoThe svn repo is https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk07:42
Kamionmdz: sent07:42
enricoI assume it's time for the docteam related things07:42
Kamionenrico: thanks07:42
makojbailey: that is autobuilt daily and then updated (semi-automatically) when i wake up07:42
Kamionenrico: we've been on documentation items for some time here07:42
enricothat's autobuilt when I see commits and I can run a script, actually07:43
enricoKamion: you don't want to know where I was07:43
sivangenrico: we talked about the positioning of ubuntu docs in yelp07:43
makoenrico: sorry i missed some of it07:43
=== mako was supposed to alert enrico
enricoI was phoning my gf at a phone booth because UK trains made her miss the plane07:43
enricoI could have used a ping07:44
Kamionenrico: if you have anything to say belatedly about the first three doc items on the agenda, please go ahead07:44
sivangenrico: jdub us supposed to report back about the yelp stuff, as Kamion noted.07:44
enricoYelp fixes needed: it depends on what's needed to put the docs where we want them07:45
enricoHelp topics organization: we all know where we want them, we have no idea how to get them there07:45
Kamiondoes jdub have a clear spec from your team of where you want them to go?07:46
enricoScreenshots updates: I'd put that together with content review07:46
=== froud [~froud@ndn-165-131-237.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
enricoKamion: the best place would be right in the toc and not in a subcategory07:46
mdzthe ubuntu-specific docs should be out in front07:46
enricofroud: [topic: where to show the docs in yelp's TOC] 07:46
mdzjdub says he has worked with yelp upstream on a solution for this07:46
sivangenrico: where would that be? a catagory like "Ubuntu documentation" at toplevel doesn't make much sense, 07:46
seb128jdub is working on that07:46
enricoKamion: however, we have no idea if that is possible at all07:46
mdzbut I have no details or ETA07:46
sivangenrico: since it's an ubuntu system :-)07:47
mdzenrico: it is possible07:47
enricomdz: oh, cool.  In that case, we'll wait for jdub to report what he found, right?07:47
doko_a mapping between doc-base and yelp would be nice, so you don't have to change every doc package.07:47
doko_... to move the docs where you want it07:48
mdzenrico: no, please don't wait for him, but be proactive07:48
enricoso, ping him?07:48
mdzenrico: ask him until you get an answer07:48
enricoI hate doing that07:48
mdzdoko_: we already have that07:48
seb128should do that for the desktop files for g-a-i too 07:48
Kamionenrico: we don't have a lot of time to spare for waiting07:48
enricoYes, but we're talking about jdub, not someone external07:49
mdzenrico: if you would prefer, you can work directly with yelp upstream07:49
mdzenrico: that is fine with me07:49
enricoOh, well, I'll keep pinging him07:49
Kamionlike many of us, jdub has many things to do, which means some may get forgotten :-)07:49
enricomdz: it's fine I keep pinging jdub, thanks07:49
=== Kamion hands chair back to mdz, assuming he's caught up
enricoSo, that was the easy part.  07:50
mdzto jump back briefly07:50
enricoThe screenshots, they are difficult to translate, and there's little we can do as a docteam07:50
mdzsince I was talking to myself for a bit07:50
thomdoko_: that's just a case of changing the scrollkeeper mappings in doc-base and rerunning install-docs07:50
mdzregarding the kernel stuff07:50
mdz<mdz> Kamion: this seems to be the same general problem as with language-support-*07:50
mdz<mdz> it would be nice to have some way to queue those packages for later installation, and inform the user07:51
mdz<mdz> Mithrandir, mvo: an update-notifier hook?07:51
mdzsuch a facility would allow us to queue packages, which are not on the CD, for later installation07:51
enricoThe FAQGuide, it should be reviewed and decided if we want it in Hoary or not, since most of it refers to Warty07:51
mdzmvo: is it feasible to use the hook facility for this?07:51
enricoI've contacted Chua Wen-Kiat about it, I wrote him twice, but he didn't answer me07:51
pittimdz: maybe for hoary it could be integrated into hte installer?07:51
Kamionupdate-notifier hooks are per-user, I thought07:51
enricoIt's also true that Chua just came out of a bad case of *dengue fever*07:51
mdzKamion: there are both per-user and per-system hooks07:51
pittioh, cool07:52
Kamionpitti: the installer has to give up at some point; if the network is not available, it needs to queue l-s-*07:52
dholbachi'm not quite sure... i guess mvo just left for sports... i'll call him07:52
Kamionit cannot keep running forever07:52
enricoare we still talking about documentation?07:52
pittiKamion: no, I mean just like you currently handle the l-support packages07:52
Kamionkernel stuff should be handled by base-installer, not by the second stage07:52
pittiKamion: if the user has no network, he would be doomed, but at least this would be an improvement that is not too invasive07:53
Kamionif at all possible07:53
mdzmvo: are you here?07:53
Kamionmvo left07:53
pittiKamion: but that would rule out u-mgr at all07:53
Kamion18:34  * mvo needs to leave now, will read log07:53
ograenrico: this guide is awful and will need a hell of a lot of changes... i would suggest something new based on it for hoary.....(with help from the docteam and technical reviews)07:53
mdzok, we'll follow up on that later then07:54
enricoogra: what guide are you talking about?07:54
mdzpitti: the issue is that l-s-* are so big07:54
ograenrico: ubuntuguied07:54
ograguide even07:54
mdztoo big for a reasonable download time during installation if the user does not have a fast connection07:54
pittimdz: issue related to which?07:54
pittimdz: ah, I see07:54
enricoogra: ok.  It's actually not awful: it's one of the most quited and referenced pieces of documentation ever07:54
mdzenrico: what is the status of the User Guide for Hoary?07:54
pittimdz: but modem-users generally don't install with network, or do they?07:54
mdzare we planning to use it at all?07:54
pittimdz: at least all my modem-using friends did install networkless07:55
dholbachmdz: have him on the phone   he says update-notifier should be fine using synaptic --set-selections07:55
enricomdz: user's guide is stalled.  The goal was the release notes, the about ubuntu and the quick Guide07:55
enricoThe user's guide has been put aside, with doubts if we should work on the Gnome User's Guide instead07:55
mdzpitti: seems like a 30-minute download on ISDN07:55
ograenrico: lets talk this over after the meeting, i have a lot objections telling users to edit config files without pointing out the danger07:55
mdzenrico: I was talking about the gnome user guide07:55
mdzI wasn't aware there was any other07:55
pittimdz: we shouldn't optimize for modem/isdn, they cannot download all this stuff anyway (same for kernel)07:56
enricomdz: John Hornbeck started a Ubuntu User's Guide07:56
mdzseb128: do you know if upstream has updated the guide at all?  the one in yelp says 2.6 still07:56
dholbachmdz: shall i ask him anything else?07:56
enricowrt the Gnome User's Guide, we never sorted out how to interact with upstream and stuff, so we focused on teh QuickGuide, which was an easier target07:56
seb128mdz: hum, lemme check07:56
mdzdholbach: ask him to send me email with the details, feasibility for hoary07:56
mdzdholbach: thanks07:56
enriconow we have quite some infrastructure in place07:56
mdzenrico: I think we should probably remove the gnome user's guide if it cannot be brought up to date07:56
=== enrico suggests everyone to have a look at the QUick Guide: it's really, really good
enricoTHe best introduction to a Desktop OS I've seen so far07:57
=== mako will vouch for the quick guide as well
enricomdz: doesn't gnome 2.10 have a user's guide?07:57
sivangenrico: maybe we can replace it with some of our stuff? quick guide?07:57
ograenrico: url ?07:57
mdzenrico: it is unfortunate that nobody can find it :-)07:57
mdzogra: help->other documentation07:57
seb128mdz: shaunm has updated a bunch of user-guide documents on the CVS 2 days ago07:57
ogramdz: thanks07:57
=== herve [~hcauwelie@ip-3.net-81-220-179.nice.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
enricoogra: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects07:57
froudmdz: here is what we have in plan http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamProjects07:58
dholbachmdz: done, he thinks its feasible07:58
froudmdz: currently07:58
enricoQuick Guide is not a user's guide: it's a "I'll show you your new flat" kind of document07:58
mdzenrico: that's sor tof what the gnome user's guide is anyway07:58
seb128mdz: user guide is 2.8 in yelp here07:58
enricoFor the User's Guide, I think the best bet is to take what happens from Gnome's side07:58
mdzbut it is a bit more detailed, it explains how to use the system07:59
seb128mdz: and I remember updating for warty ... that's only the title beeing wrong and displaying 2.607:59
enricoMaybe we can see if they need help, but people in the docteam are used to the workflow we have now, and it'd be quite disrupting to propose a new one now07:59
mdzseb128: oh07:59
mdzseb128: can you fix the title? :-)07:59
seb128"GNOME 2.8 Desktop User Guide"07:59
seb128on the page07:59
enricoEspecially after the chaos of the last days, which just sorted out after lots of efforts07:59
seb128I'll update to 2.10 from the CVS07:59
mdzI didn't look at the content07:59
mdzseb128: ok, great, thanks07:59
mdzmoving on08:00
mdzKeybuk is going to help us next week with dpkg bugs08:00
mdzespecially #16459508:00
enricomdz: Quick Guide says "this is the toilet", but doesn't tell you how to flush it08:00
mdzwhich is needed for the langpack update mechanism08:00
sivanghow compatiable are we the gnome 2.10 manual? don't we have changed menu items and nautilus stuff?08:00
mdzis there any other dpkg work we need, while we have him?08:00
mdzenrico, sivang: if there is more docteam material to cover, let's schedule a separate meeting. we have been here 2 hours already and have much more to cover08:01
enricomdz: we have a docteam meeting tomorrow, 23:00UTC08:01
sivangmdz: right, sorry for creating noise08:01
enricomdz: you're welcome to show up there08:02
mdzany other dpkg items? no?08:02
ograenrico: do you have any process in place for dev reviews ? 08:02
mdzpitti: this is the langpack selection stuff08:02
mdzwe want to fit as many as we can on both install and live08:02
pittiI already said, but again:08:02
makoogra: hwat do you mean by review?08:02
makoogra: copy edit, proof, tech edit?08:03
pittippc allows us to accomodate some 42 MB until we reach 65008:03
=== silbs [~jane@host217-37-231-22.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"]
mdzKamion: do we have space for winfoss and the remaining 42MB of langpacks?08:03
ogramako: to avoid technical mistakes like the ones done in the ubuntuguide.org08:03
mdzon i386/08:03
pittiwe currently have about 45 MB of langpacks which are not on the CD already08:03
makoogra: tech editing08:03
=== froud wants to discuss that in docteam meeting
ograah, thans mako08:03
pittimdz: depends on how many kernels we ship in addition08:03
enricoogra: you can review on the HTML preview and then post comments08:03
pittimdz: on i386 we have an extra 75 mb08:03
ograenrico: great, i'll add it to my todo :)08:04
mdzpitti: I only skimmed the log, but it sounded infeasible to ship more kernels08:04
enricoogra: reviewing DocBook would be even better08:04
mdzpitti: before or after winfoss?08:04
pittimdz: it shouldn't be infeasible to ship them, just to integrate their installation08:04
ograenrico: k08:04
enricoogra: the repo is open read-ponly to everyone and you can post pathces to the list08:04
pittimdz: I looked at the size of the preview CDs08:04
mdzpitti: integrating their installation is done08:04
mdzpitti: the only problem is shipping them :-)08:04
T-Boneas fabbione pointed out, they're huge08:04
mdzbase-installer has code to select the best kernel for the system08:04
pittimdz: what should be the problem with putting -k7 in ship?08:04
mdzpitti: the fact that there are far more 686 systems than k7?08:05
pittimdz: sure, we have to pick08:05
pittimdz: but anyway08:05
Kamionmdz: no08:05
mdzwe either ship one kernel which works everywhere (as we currently do)08:05
pittippc allows 40 mb, i386 allows 115 mb08:05
mdzor we ship all of the custom kernels08:06
mdzbecause the kernel team says that we cannot reduce it safely for hoary08:06
T-Bonethe first choice seems better to me in the long run08:06
pittiia64 allows 45 mb, amd64 allows 90 mb08:06
T-Bonenumber of flavours can do only one thing: increase08:06
Kamionmdz: with WinFOSS, i386 has about 20MB free08:06
mdzKamion: eek08:07
thomKamion: presumably that means amd64 is right on the limit with winfoss added?08:07
Kamionmdz: (live CD, obviously)08:07
mdzpitti: what can we do with 20M of langpacks?08:07
pitti20 mb is enough for about 40% of the other langpacks08:07
Kamionthom: yes, about 1MB short08:07
mdzoh, live cd08:07
Kamionwe do not have WinFOSS on the install CD at the moment08:07
mdzlive CD compression is ~60% I think08:07
Kamionis it wanted there?08:07
mdzlamont: ^^?08:07
mdzKamion: no08:07
lamontit's at about 35-40 %08:08
mdzpitti: so 45M of langpacks should -> ~15M of live CD space08:08
lamontWinFOSS is outside the cloop, of course.08:08
pittimdz: if we optimize a bit, we _could_ squeeze all the stuff onto the ppc cd08:08
crimsuna lot of new users seem to complain that the installer doesn't select an "optimised" kernel by default, but it doesn't make sense to tie up that much space with custom kernels. It makes more sense to stick with the default base kernel that works everywhere.08:08
=== pelle [~pelle@c213-89-140-172.cm-upc.chello.se] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
pittimdz: erm, I'm already talking about .deb sizes#08:08
Kamionmdz: i386 install CD is at 533 MB08:08
mdzcrimsun: it will choose the best kernel on the DVD; we don't even have room for one more kernel on the install CD08:09
T-Bonesilly idea, but what about picking the correct kernel automagically in stage 2 if the user selected internet download?08:09
mdznm, I confused instal and live CD sizes08:09
Kamionwe have room for lots more kernels on the install CD08:09
mdzKamion: ok, plenty of room08:09
mdzthe i386 kernel flavours are ~16M apiece08:09
pittiKamion: s/lots/2/ ?08:09
mdzwe could put -686, -k7, -686-smp, -k7-smp08:09
Kamionpitti: easily08:09
T-Bone(that would delay booting the new kernel to the next reboot, of course)08:09
Kamion] 08:09
pittiKamion: I mean until we reach the ppc size08:09
KamionI think we can live without -smp variants personally08:09
pittiKamion: then we have an equal amount of space for langpacks08:10
T-BoneKamion: ^^^08:10
sivangI second crimsun , with the addition that some tool should exist to do the touch finishing of the installation, as provide you with a clickable solution to install optimized drivers for you vid-card, install an optimized kernel etc.08:10
mdzKamion: those would be the first to go, certainly08:10
KamionT-Bone: prefer to avoid that if at all possible08:10
mdzKamion: but for server installs they're awfully handy08:10
pittimdz: OTOH servers will probably have a good net connection08:10
KamionT-Bone: and there is *no* code for that right now; writing new kernel selection code is not the thing I want to be doing right at this moment08:10
T-Bonepitti: that too08:10
Kamionmdz: true08:10
mdzKamion: I'm not sure I'm entirely comfortable with having base-installer select hte kernel this late in the release cycle, though08:10
T-BoneKamion: ah ok, i thought the current code could be used in stage2. sorry08:11
Kamionerm; it already does select the kernel, on netboot installs08:11
mdzKamion: I think I really really like the idea of having the same kernel boot in stage1 and stage208:11
mdzbut netboot is an extreme corner case for Ubuntu; we don't even document or advertise that it is possible08:11
Kamionhm, I'm ambivalent08:11
Kamionwe do document it :)08:11
doko_they throw us out, we have to leave now. I'll read the log back in Berlin08:11
mdznow :-)08:11
elmonetboot good08:12
sivangdoko_: c'ya08:12
dholbachbye doko 08:12
elmono netboot bad08:12
=== T-Bone contemplates elmo :)
lamontsame kernel both stages good08:12
mdzKamion: we do have bug reports where the -smp kernels fail, but the -386 kernel works08:12
pittielmo spoken08:12
thom* elmo hit no netboot with big club08:12
mdzlet's pass on the kernels issue for Hoary; reliability is most important at this point08:12
Kamionmdz: I'm equally uncomfortable with having one kernel in stage2 and another kernel in the first reboot after stage208:12
Kamionwhen that first reboot might be next week08:13
Kamionfailing earlier is better than failing later :)08:13
mdzthe other kernel flavours are only truly important on servers (where the admin will know what to do) and very high-end desktop08:13
fabbioneKamion: +10008:13
thomKamion: that sounds worse by far, agreed08:13
mdzso let's not add kernels to ship08:13
mdzgetting back to langpacks08:13
fabbionemdz: agreed08:13
Kamionall right, then08:13
ograelmo: that was the documentation ?08:13
fabbioneis there anything more to discuss about kernel?08:13
elmocan I request we bump anything to do with me up the agenda (i.e. archive I guess) - I have to catch a train at some point this evening, and they only run so late08:13
mdzwe can definitely add all langpacks to ship for i38608:14
pittimdz: I will sum up the langpack statistics to u-devel08:14
fabbionei wouldn't mind to go and have some dinner08:14
mdzKamion: how much space left on ppc?08:14
pitti42  MB08:14
Kamionmdz: install or live?08:14
mdzpitti: go ahead and add the remaining langpacks to i386 ship08:14
T-Bonefabbione: order a pizza ;)08:14
mdzKamion: install08:14
mdz(42M apparently)08:14
Kamionyes, what pitti said08:14
pittimdz: and to amd64 as well, I suppose08:14
sivangT-Bone: my pizza is in the fridge downstairs :)08:14
mdzI  know these meetings are long, believe me my wrists are killing me08:14
mdzbut we don't do this very often, and we have a lot to discuss08:15
pittimdz: we probably have to pick a little for ppc08:15
Kamionok, numbers:08:15
mdzso I need for you guys to stick around08:15
Kamion-rw-rw-r--    1 cjwatson cdimage  583636992 Mar 11 08:24 hoary-install-amd64.iso08:15
Kamion-rw-rw-r--    1 cjwatson cdimage  558759936 Mar 11 08:33 hoary-install-i386.iso08:15
Kamion-rw-rw-r--    1 cjwatson cdimage  634318848 Mar 11 08:58 hoary-install-ia64.iso08:15
Kamion-rw-rw-r--    1 cjwatson cdimage  636979200 Mar 11 09:12 hoary-install-powerpc.iso08:15
Kamion-rw-rw-r--    1 cjwatson cdimage  680626176 Mar 11 11:50 hoary-live-amd64.iso08:15
Kamion-rw-rw-r--    1 cjwatson cdimage  661864448 Mar 11 11:51 hoary-live-i386.iso08:15
Kamion-rw-rw-r--    1 cjwatson cdimage  599754752 Mar 11 11:52 hoary-live-ia64.iso08:15
Kamion-rw-rw-r--    1 cjwatson cdimage  615639040 Mar 11 11:53 hoary-live-powerpc.iso08:15
Kamionlimit is 68157440008:15
lamont<Kamion> -rw-rw-r--    1 cjwatson cdimage  680626176 Mar 11 11:50 hoary-live-amd64.iso08:15
mdz650M hoary-live-amd64.iso08:15
T-Bonelive amd64, gosh08:15
Kamionlamont: that's with WinFOSS08:15
pittiKamion: oh, the http page says "608 MB" for ppc08:15
mdzwhat happened there?08:15
lamontKamion: ah, ok08:16
mdzoh, winfoss08:16
Kamionwhich can be reduced08:16
mdzwe can kill winfoss from amd64 if necessary08:16
Kamionpitti: yes, divide by 1024*1024, not 1000*1000 :)08:16
mdzKamion: ls -sh :-)08:16
pittido we have 650 * 1024^2 or 650 * 1000^2 bytes?08:16
pittiKamion: I know, but I'm unsure about the size of a CD08:17
Kamionpitti: 650*1024*102408:17
KamionI checked this morning against cdrecord source08:17
=== pitti is relieved
Kamion333000 sectors, to be exact08:17
lamontbut DVD's are 4.7*10^908:17
T-Bonecan we stop the maths?08:17
pittiokay, then we do have 42 MB for ppc08:18
Kamionso in fact 681984000 bytes08:18
lamontKamion: warty live was already against the wire08:18
mdzso 650.4 * 1024^208:18
pittimdz: I do the maths more exactly and report back with the ppc status08:18
janino 700Mb CDs?08:18
pittimdz: I can find out whether stripping would be enough to fit everything08:18
mdzpitti: ok, but definitely add the langpacks for i38608:18
mdzpitti: for the next daily08:18
pittimdz: sure (and amd64)08:18
Kamionjani: that's often asked, but we already get a lot of bug reports due to bad media08:18
Kamionjani: I am very uncomfortable with raising the bar even higher08:18
janiKamion, oh ok didn't know08:19
mdzjani: remember, we also press proper 650M standard CDs08:19
mdznot only images for CD-Rs08:19
mdzmoving right along08:19
mdzelmo: you're up08:19
mdzand lamont08:19
mdznow seems like a good time to start the test rebuild08:19
=== lamont looks at elmo
mdzand fix the uninstallables08:20
mdzfor supported architectures08:20
mdzlamont: you said you needed a test archive?08:20
ogramdz:does this includeuniverse ?08:20
lamontogra: yes08:20
ograah, great08:20
lamontfull rebuild will be all components08:20
mdzKamion: in whata way?08:20
mdzogra: in what way?08:20
Kamionbriefly about langpacks> by the way, the slowness with installing lots of them should now be resolved; let me know if it isn't08:20
mdzthe test rebuild?08:20
ogramdz: in what way great ? 08:21
mdzlamont: you're the only one who would notice the time difference (installing langpacks on the live rootfs)08:21
lamontogra: I won't generally be _fixing_ things in universe, but we will build them all;08:21
jbaileyNice.  Are the rebuilt packages what go into the archive, or ar they thrown away?08:21
mdzogra: in what way universe?08:21
mdzjbailey: thrown away08:21
elmojbailey: thrown the hell away08:21
dholbachmdz: i hope we can get a list of packages, not installable/buildable08:21
ogramdz: in the way: we need a list of packages that need fixing08:21
mdzhence "test" rebuild :-)08:21
jbaileyMmm, too bad.  It's not a big deal for now, but when we bump glibc or gcc major revs we should make sure we do this.08:22
lamontbuild logs will go in a sibling to buildLogs on p.u.c08:22
elmofor the test archive stuff, I have a machine available, but the combination of hoary-test, vancouver and this week's install fest, has meant I haven't installed katie + w-b on it yet08:22
mdzogra,dholbach: lamont should be able to give you a list of the failures without much additional work, if any08:22
Kamionmdz: (it also made a difference for people selecting languages where the langpack was not installed)08:22
mdzogra,dholbach: regarding uninstallables, "apt-cache -i unmet"08:22
elmojbailey: dude, no we shouldn't08:22
=== thom calls to mind elmo's "HERE'S JONNY" quote
dholbachmdz: thanks08:22
mdzogra,dholbach: Charles Majola is starting to work through them, coordinate with him08:22
mdzKamion: oh, true08:22
jbaileyelmo: Tracing unreproducable abi bugs really sucks.08:22
mdzelmo: ETA?08:23
ogramdz: wow, didnt know about "unmet" thanks :)08:23
elmomdz: early next week08:23
lamontjbailey: if you mean do a test rebuild, certainly.  If you mean rebuild the archive and lose all our mirror sites, certainly not.08:23
elmojbailey: not having a mirror network and not supporting partial upgrades sucks more08:23
dholbachogra: i put it on the wiki08:23
ogradholbach: thks wiki master :)08:23
dholbachogra: (after a sorting) :-)08:23
jbaileylamont: Doesn't have to be done in one shot, but over the course of a release every package should be touched at least once after a glibc or gcc bump for sanity.08:24
thomelmo/lamont: in fairness, this is exactly what fedora are doing currently in rebuilding the world on gcc 4.0, and they don't appear to have caused people to run away screaming08:24
elmothom: I run away screaming from fedora all the time08:24
T-Bonethat's a good thing :)08:25
thomelmo: pffft, you know what i mean08:25
elmothom: and last I checked fedora aren't 60Gb08:25
elmosorry, but it's madness08:25
elmoif gcc/glib require that - they're broken08:25
KamionSMS from mdz: "offline again"08:25
elmoif fixing is hard, fine, but then we're giving up on supporting partial upgrades08:26
sivangKamion: seems like he has a net connection as good as mines08:26
jbaileyIt's not required, there are just often subtle changes that require older things to use compatability code.08:26
jbaileyAnd a rebuild just makes them go away, so as soon as you recompile to get a decent backtrace, no more bug.08:26
lamontjbailey: so there are bugs08:27
=== lamont likes partial upgrades
elmojbailey: seriously how often does this happen?  maybe I'm being dense, but I can't recally many/examples of that with Debian stuff?08:28
elmoin any event, it's -ETOPIC, and we can discuss it out-of-band08:28
mdzelmo: ok, thanks08:28
mdzelmo: germinate/archive sync is up to date now, right?08:28
mdzI added that agenda item before we talked about it last08:28
elmomdz: yes08:28
Kamionmdz: recovered scrollback?08:29
mdzogra,dholbach: quick universe status update?08:29
mdz_quick_ :-)08:29
pittimdz: just added the remaining langpacks to amd64 and i38608:29
ogramdz: we plan to do kind of a "softfreeze" 08:30
mdzpitti: thanks08:30
pittimdz: rest -> mail08:30
Kamioner, we skipped over uninstallables a bit08:30
ogramdz: so wecall it a freeze, but everybody will know its not but should be cautions what he uploads08:30
KamionI volunteered to try to get britney to output universe uninstallables separately; will try to look at that next week08:30
dholbachmdz: python transition is nearly complete, howl transition (not that much work) nearly done too08:31
ogramdz: we still have a lot to reveiew08:31
dholbachthat's what i was anxious to discuss08:31
dholbachlots of things are already fixed and need review to be uploaded08:31
ogramdz: mostly done by dholbach since i was dragged away by my real world probs and hwdb-client, i will take up again next week08:32
dholbachbut we seem to have no capacity08:32
dholbachso if some of you just picked a random package of the "to review" section of MOTUTodo we'd be really really happy08:32
ogradholbach: we should focus on people already having a key up08:33
mdzdholbach: send an email to ubuntu-devel asking for volunteers08:33
dholbachi know that we're faster in reviewing than the debian new maintainer crew, but still08:33
mdzdholbach: most of the people here have a lot of tasks already08:33
=== jani feels guilty for not doing motu work this week
ogradholbach: lets sort them this way08:33
dholbachi wont thrash anyone into it08:33
mdzKamion: can you exclude ia64 from hoary_probs.html?08:34
elmono, but I can08:34
ograwe got a lot of motivated people out there, but nearly everyone has probs to get a signed key08:34
mdzpitti: some language-support-* are still uninstallable?08:34
T-Bonemdz: why?08:34
mdzKamion: right, sorry, I keep forgetting :-)08:34
T-Bonemdz: i track that08:34
mdzT-Bone: so that we can see what needs to be done for the release08:34
pittimdz: oh? I don't have bug reports any more08:34
Kamionmdz: I don't see the need, since most of that stuff is about to be fixed08:34
dholbachjani: please don't feel guilty :-)08:34
pittimdz: is there an automatic page for this?08:34
T-Bonemdz: how having ia64 in that list prevents you to do so?08:34
mdzpitti: http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~cjwatson/testing/hoary_probs.html08:34
mdzT-Bone: by presenting me with a lot of information that I don't care about08:35
T-Bonea lot?08:35
pittimdz: thanks, will sort this out08:35
mdzT-Bone: about 1/3 of that stuff is ia6408:35
mdzT-Bone: let's not argue about this. we can split ia64 into a separate file08:35
mdzelmo: right?08:35
elmoerr, I can run britney twice, sure08:36
lamontelmo: what about spilling ia64 errors into another file?08:36
elmoshe's cheap-ish08:36
mdzok, solved08:36
Kamionlet me know where to mirror stuff from08:36
mdzpitti: I think some of it might be thunderbird08:36
=== T-Bone notes that we don't care about ia64
mdzpitti: at this point, if the packages cannot be easily fixed (e.g., sync from Debian), we probably need to remoev the deps08:36
mdzT-Bone: not for the Hoary release we don't08:36
pittimdz: yeah, will do08:37
mdzwe've been over that08:37
T-Bonethat'll teach me trying to fix blockers08:37
KamionT-Bone: it's not a release target; please don't have a go at mdz for only caring about release targets, he has a hell of a lot to consider08:37
pittimdz: some of it might be OO.o08:37
KamionT-Bone: the universe guys are also working on stuff that is not release targets08:37
KamionT-Bone: that doesn't mean it's unimportant, just that it should be possible to consider release targets separately from anything else08:38
T-BoneKamion: my understanding was that ia64 would be reconsidered if the two big blockers were solved08:38
crimsunelmo: (thanks for looking after my GPG key)08:38
pittimdz: mozilla locales, too08:38
mdzright.  ia64 and universe will do the best they can for release, but they will not block us08:38
Kamionwe won't be putting universe into hoary_probs.html either08:38
mdzpitti: same answer there08:38
elmocrimsun: (np, sorry for delay)08:38
mdzmoving on08:38
mdzwarty upgrades -> language pack/support install08:38
mdzthat's a documentation issue as far as I'm concerned08:38
mdzwe don't have much else08:38
KamionT-Bone: I don't know the status of that; for the moment, it seems entirely fair to split ia64 out of hoary_probs.html, until such time as the status changes08:39
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mdzpitti: can you add that to HoaryUpgradeNotes?08:39
pittimdz: I think this could be solved with upgrading hooks08:39
elmoanything else for me in the agenda?  sorry to be trying to skip out, but it's a long journey back to leeds08:39
pittimdz: yes, I can08:39
pittimdz: however, maybe we can hook it into the upgrade manager08:39
mdzelmo: only remaining item would be any further server testing08:39
pittimdz: I ask mvo about this08:39
mdzpitti: ok, please do08:39
elmomdz: *cry* you want me to do that AGAIN?08:39
mdzelmo: not on the same scale08:40
mdzelmo: let's talk about it later, go08:40
dholbachpitti: shall i ping mvo about something specific - i make notes for him already08:40
elmook, thanks.  sorry.  etc. 08:40
mdznext item: security policy review08:40
mdzpitti: we need to ensure that we haven't regressed from warty08:40
pittidholbach: I'll ask him on monday, I already noted this08:40
mdzpitti: e.g., new setuid programs or ports08:40
dholbachpitti: alright08:40
pittimdz: I will do another warty install, upgrade and compare setuid and process lists08:41
mdzpitti has a lot to do right now; can someone else do that review?08:41
mdzlamont: ?08:41
pittithat'd be fine, too :-)08:41
mdzlamont: while you're waiting for the infrastructure for the test rebuild, can you do a Warty vs. Hoary setuid diff?08:41
pittilamont: this would involve to note all setuid binaries that were added, and all processes which now run as root in addition08:41
lamontmdz: wouldn't be hard to do, no08:41
mdzand ntan08:41
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mdzlamont: great, thanks08:41
pittimdz: I also need to do a full security review for Hoary packages08:42
mdzlanguage-support-* mvo said he would investigate08:42
mdzpitti: what kind of review?08:42
pittimdz: my Ubuntu CVE status page already helps a lot, but it does not contain all CANs08:42
mdzoh, of known vulnerabilities08:42
pittimdz: some CANs might have slipped though the cracks08:42
pittimdz: like, on syncinc packages or so08:42
mdzpitti: can you recruit someone to help?  maybe gerardo?08:42
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mdzpitti: we could bounty it08:42
pittimdz: gerardo, sivang, lamont?08:42
sivangmdz: I'm in :)08:43
pittimdz: hmm, I'd rather control this myself, if you don't mind :-)08:43
pittimdz: similar to the warty release08:43
pittimdz: this worked pretty fine08:43
sivangpitti: that was for you also :)08:43
mdzpitti: ok, I'm concerned about you being overloaded though08:43
pittimdz: I'll coordinate, not do everything myself :-)08:43
mdzpitti: so please get some assistance for the research; this is easy to parallelize08:43
ograpitti: something else you can drop `08:43
mdzKamion: installer test plan08:44
pittiogra: yes, bug fixing :-)08:44
mdzKamion: can you put together an outline by, say, RC-7days?08:44
Kamionon my list; amu posted a link earlier which could be extended08:44
Kamionalthough that seems to be more the installed system actually08:44
Kamionmdz: yes, I'll adapt from the Debian installer test plan08:44
mdzyes, that's for the live CD08:44
mdzok, thanks08:44
Kamionoh, good point08:44
mdzthe live CD test plan covers much of the desktop, last I looked at it08:45
Kamionone sec I'll find the link08:45
mdzamu: do you have that URL?08:45
mdzit's not in my log08:45
thomKamion: if you need help on that one yell08:45
mdzthom: can you work on the server test plan?08:46
mdzthom: basic functional testing of the common server stuff, apache, php, mysql, whatnot08:46
Kamion^- d-i test plan08:46
mdzall of this should be written up at the level that anyone with reasonable Ubuntu command-line skills can follow it08:46
mdzso that we can ask all volunteer testers to follow the plan08:46
mdzKamion: do you want to do server-mode installs as part of the installer test plan, or the server test plan?08:47
Kamionmdz: both, I think08:48
Kamiondifferent focus08:48
mdzKamion: ok, send thom the relevant info08:48
mdzthat's the end of the agenda08:48
mdzI have one more item08:48
mdzI recently made a pass over all >=major bugs08:48
mdzbut there are probably bugs out there with the wrong severity08:49
mdzeach of you, please review your open bugs08:49
mdzand ensure that anything which should be on my radar for Hoary is set to >=major08:49
pittimdz: do you consider warty->hoary upgrading issues as major? (I do)08:49
mdzplease do that by the end of next week08:49
mdzpitti: yes08:49
pittimdz: e. g. fixing console-tools is a bit nontrivial08:50
HiddenWolfjust wondering: there are a lot of bugs posted on the mailing list, are these filed in bugzilla?08:50
pittiHiddenWolf: not automatically08:50
mdzsend me a note when you've finished your review, so that I know when I can consider the release-relevant bug list to be fairly complete08:50
mdzHiddenWolf: if you see someone reporting a bug to the mailing list, and you are sure it is a real bug, ask them to file it in bugzilla08:50
mdzwe ask people to report issues to the mailing lists when they are not sure08:51
mdzany other business?08:51
ograHiddenWolf: ....and if you are sure that its not a universe bug 08:51
HiddenWolfmdz: are all those gamin issues in bugzilla already?08:51
mdzogra: :-)08:51
mdzHiddenWolf: which ones?08:51
tsengHiddenWolf: there are several different reports08:51
tsengHiddenWolf: they need to be sorted out in the next week08:51
sivangogra:  what happens to unvierse bug ATM? they are awaiting malone?08:52
mdzHiddenWolf: pitti is going to work on triaging them, can you help him?08:52
ogramdz: today and yesterday a thread started on -devel08:52
tsengsivang: right now they seem to go to -users.. yes @ waiting for malone08:52
sivangtseng: ok08:52
ograsivang: see tseng08:52
tsengthe gamin thread on devel is pretty useless08:52
HiddenWolfmdz: if he needs the help...08:52
pittiHiddenWolf: most of gamin issues are already assignede to me and filed, yes08:52
tseng"gamin is teh b0rk"08:52
dholbachthanks mdz, thanks kamion08:53
pittitseng: fam is b0rked, too08:53
tsengsure is.08:53
mdzany other business before we close?08:53
KamionI added DVD testing to the agenda08:53
mdzoh, I haven't reloaded08:54
mdzwho here has DVD writers?08:54
KamionI've ordered a DVD burner and DVD+RWs, but I would like people with bandwidth and DVD burners to have a go, too08:54
jbaileyI do08:54
mdz(I have one)08:54
tsengI have a dvdr08:54
ogramdz: me08:54
=== pitti raises hand
=== lamont has a burner, but bandwidht can be a challenge some days
seb128do we have DVD isos for the preview ?08:54
sivangmdz: have bandwidth, no burner :-/08:54
thomi was planning to acquire such a beast, i can move it up the schedule08:54
Kamionbecause the DVDs are almost entirely untested, and, as shown by Linux Magazine, people are going to want to ship them08:54
mdzseb128: no08:54
Kamionseb128: we have weekly-dvd builds on cdimage.u.c08:54
mdzseb128: because we didn't have time/people to test htem :-)08:54
pittisivang: burner, no bandwith -> let's move together08:55
seb128I'll have a try on the current one08:55
seb128I've a medium bandwith but my server can download during the night :)08:55
mdzKamion: looks like we have a reasonable list of people who can test, once we have a plan08:55
jbaileyI may want to look into want my maximum transfer is for the month and get a better package, though. =)08:55
=== dholbach gets it too
ograpitti: going to .il ?08:55
=== thom hugs unlimited transfer
=== pitti curses 3GB/week
sivangpitti:  :-)08:56
ograpitti: the other way around would be no benefit *g*08:56
KamionI am aware of an archive-copier bug that causes DVD installations to copy a LOT of data to the hard disk at the moment08:56
KamionI'm in the process of fixing that08:56
mdzKamion: at what time of the week does the DVD build take place?08:56
Kamion17 12 * * 6     /srv/cdimage.no-name-yet.com/bin/cron.weekly-dvd08:57
mdzpitti: you should be able to jigdo the CD data onto the DVD, at least08:57
Kamionper colin.watson@canonical.com--2004/cdimage--mainline--0 etc/crontab08:57
pittidholbach: could you snailmail me a DVD?08:57
thomKamion: all of the packages on the dvd, perchance?08:57
Kamionthom: everything in Ubuntu supported08:57
dholbachpitti: query me your adress08:57
thomouch indeed08:57
Kamionthom: plus the live cloop08:57
mdzdholbach,tseng,ogra,pitti,thom: it would be aa good idea to download the current weekly DVD, so that you can rsync up to the next one08:57
Kamionit's a combo08:57
mdzour weekly churn should be fairly reasonable at this point08:58
KamionI'll probably make it go more often than weekly08:58
=== ogra starts download
Kamionmaybe Saturdays and Wednesdays, or something08:58
mdzeven better08:58
jbaileyAre DVDs usefully rsync'able?08:58
pittimdz: I get one snailmailed and update from it08:58
mdzwhat I do for CDs is to set up a nightly rsync job, so that I'm always up to date and don't have to wait for downloads08:58
thomyeah, i'm gonna kick that off now08:58
mdzif you don't have transfer limits, I recommend doing the same08:58
ograjbailey: isnt it a iso ?08:58
mdzjbailey: they're as rsyncable as the install+live CDs08:58
mdzjbailey: though when they're generated weekly, less so08:59
mdzKamion: I think twice weekly is reasonable08:59
Kamionalright, will do08:59
mdzok, is there any other business before we break?08:59
mdzwe're at the 3-hour mark ;-)08:59
mdzok, hearing none, meeting adjourned09:00
mdzthanks, everyone09:00
ograi will need some server for hwdb-client, but we can do that in PM09:00
mdzanything else, mail ubuntu-devel@09:00
ograand later09:00
sivangogra: PM ?09:00
ograsivang: personal message09:00
tsengthanks mdz 09:01
=== sivang goes to restart his net connection, hope this will work since should have 1.5Mbit unlimited.
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pittithanks mdz, long but great meeting09:02
=== lamont isn't sure he _wants_ to understand that emoticon
Kamionlamont: imagine arms lifted up in a "yay" gesture09:04
thomi'm not sure if it's "I surrender" or "throws hands up in glee"09:04
zulits like what the comic bookshop guy said "there is no emoticon for the rage im feeling"09:05
jbaileylamont: Cheering pitti's statement.09:05
lamontah, ok09:06
mgalvinhi all i just got back and saw that dvd's need testing, the last one is from the 8th, since that one will prolly not work for me, does anyone when the nest one will be rolled09:07
Kamionmgalvin: why won't that work?09:08
Kamionmgalvin: but it'll be tomorrow sometime09:08
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mgalvinKamoin: my machine was affected by the sata bug from the other day that the release was delated for09:09
Kamionhm, the last weekly-dvd build was kicked off manually by me09:09
Kamionmgalvin: ah, ok09:09
dholbachKamion: so new dvd-isos tomorrow?09:10
Kamiondholbach: yeah09:11
ogradholbach: start the DL immediately, then do a rsync09:11
Kamionstarts at 12:17 UTC09:11
Kamionwill take several hours I imagine09:11
mgalvinI will download the new dvd image when its ready and give it a go, i have an unlimited connection here and get up to 700/kbs :)09:11
thomKamion: you need to fix up the HEADER.html for the dvds...09:12
Kamionthom: hm, yeah, that'll be interesting09:13
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