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| Simira | Kamion: ping? | 03:34 |
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| HostingGeek | tooo many meetings | 07:51 |
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| === enrico walks in and hangs the coat on the side | ||
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| froud | nhla lets do this thing | 11:08 |
| froud | enrico: you lead | 11:08 |
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| enrico | are we all there? | 11:09 |
| froud | here | 11:09 |
| trickie | here | 11:09 |
| jeffsch | here | 11:10 |
| froud | what's first topic enrico | 11:10 |
| === enrico pulls up the wiki page | ||
| drasko | hi all... | 11:10 |
| === ogra waves from the bleachers | ||
| enrico | Good. | 11:11 |
| === enrico coughs | ||
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| enrico | Good morning/afternoon/evening/night, ladies and gentlemen | 11:11 |
| Burgundavia | hello | 11:11 |
| enrico | Welcome to the third Ubuntu Docteam Meeting | 11:12 |
| === froud nods in the direction of Burgundavia | ||
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| enrico | I'm loosely leading the session, and I'll post minutes to the mailing list and in the wiki | 11:12 |
| enrico | We have three main topics in the agenda: | 11:13 |
| enrico | 1) Clarification of recent events | 11:13 |
| enrico | 2) Releasing Hoary | 11:13 |
| enrico | 3) Post Hoary | 11:13 |
| trickie | i posted the first topic on the wiki, because i was not understanding what was going on very recentyl in regards to the team | 11:14 |
| enrico | We can start with the first one, just quickly I'd say: we seem to have reached harmony, and I don't want to shake it too much :) | 11:14 |
| froud | basically Burgundavia and I kissed and made up | 11:14 |
| Burgundavia | right | 11:15 |
| trickie | love is in the air... | 11:15 |
| Burgundavia | well I am single | 11:15 |
| trickie | ha ha ha | 11:15 |
| === enrico hugs Burgundavia | ||
| enrico | I have a personal take on the event, though | 11:15 |
| froud | however as general we need some guidelines to contributions at various dev stages | 11:15 |
| froud | prose are not code | 11:16 |
| enrico | froud: yes. We've been needing some freeze, or half-freeze, for quite a while | 11:16 |
| jeffsch | phases like: planning, writing, editing, release? | 11:16 |
| froud | jeffsch: yes | 11:16 |
| froud | we have used @status in the docs | 11:17 |
| froud | if people want I can change them | 11:17 |
| === enrico likes the idea | ||
| enrico | I mean, the idea of phases | 11:17 |
| enrico | I'd just remove the "planning" phase | 11:17 |
| froud | normally we use outline, first draft, second draft, camera ready | 11:17 |
| enrico | It seems to me like the analogue of the "work in progess" icon on webpages | 11:17 |
| enrico | Sometimes it helps to make it so that either a work starts, or it isn't there. "planning" phases tend to sit there forever | 11:18 |
| froud | outlining is a plan | 11:18 |
| enrico | froud: ah, ok | 11:18 |
| froud | see it as a skeleton | 11:18 |
| trickie | thats how i see it | 11:18 |
| froud | from outline we can derive status docs | 11:19 |
| froud | and allocate work between us | 11:19 |
| froud | after each decides on a section we prepare first draft | 11:19 |
| froud | collectively | 11:19 |
| froud | then we switch sections as we go to second draft | 11:20 |
| froud | each checks and edits the other | 11:20 |
| froud | after second draft we do technical review | 11:20 |
| froud | at which point major edit should be limited to | 11:20 |
| froud | technical error, punctuation, spelling grammar | 11:21 |
| froud | opinions | 11:21 |
| enrico | You need a tightly coupled team to for the switching sections part to be successful | 11:21 |
| trickie | i agree, using those phases and limiting edits in certian phases will certainly increase our productivity | 11:22 |
| jeffsch | big changes near a release are not good: one thing gets fixed, and two get broken. it is normal for that to happen | 11:22 |
| froud | enrico: what do you suggest | 11:22 |
| enrico | But I think the limiting edits to "technical error, punctuation, spelling grammar" is a good step | 11:22 |
| enrico | I mean, a step to make at some point | 11:23 |
| trickie | if someone sees something they would like to change (majorly) but it is already in final draft, then they should line it up for the next release | 11:23 |
| froud | yes, in each release the docs should go through the same phases | 11:23 |
| froud | over the course of several releases | 11:23 |
| enrico | From what froud said, I'd keep at least the freeze-like phase, and apply it to the QuickGuide now | 11:23 |
| froud | quality and quanity is built | 11:23 |
| froud | over time and provided that the whole OS does not change, stability is created | 11:24 |
| enrico | froud: yes. I'm curious to see what the QuickGuide will have become by Grumpy or Perky | 11:24 |
| trickie | I am not sure how smoothly the switching sections bit will be either... but it will only be easier as participation grows | 11:24 |
| froud | yes, Quick Guide is the platform to build on | 11:25 |
| enrico | .oO(I guess people will have noticed that I'm a shameless fan of the quickguide) | 11:25 |
| froud | trickie: the switching happens on nodes | 11:25 |
| froud | some nodes move faster than others | 11:25 |
| froud | basically the @status shows the stage a node is at | 11:26 |
| trickie | yes agreed on that, whether every node gets to go through the whole process or not is what i meant | 11:26 |
| froud | so status="first-draft" | 11:26 |
| froud | the main problem I see is the interaction with the technical review | 11:26 |
| froud | it's not such a problem with quick guide | 11:27 |
| froud | but for user and admin guides it will be | 11:27 |
| === enrico thinks | ||
| froud | we need devs to do the technical reviews | 11:27 |
| trickie | yes, we will have to probably include developers | 11:27 |
| froud | and to save them time | 11:27 |
| trickie | yes | 11:27 |
| froud | we have to give specific reference to what they should check | 11:27 |
| Burgundavia | a dev read over might be a good thing at certain point | 11:28 |
| enrico | I like the idea, but I'm still wondering if it applies to the more caotic nature of our project | 11:28 |
| Burgundavia | catch things like the sudo error | 11:28 |
| enrico | I was however liking the idea of phases | 11:28 |
| froud | Burgundavia: yes :-) | 11:28 |
| enrico | How about: | 11:28 |
| trickie | yes i found dev feedback for the release notes was good, but because i asked for general review and comments it came in over a few weeks | 11:28 |
| enrico | 1) "Wiki mode": everyone adds contents everywhere, even comments | 11:28 |
| enrico | 2) "Style mode": people pull the contents of a section together in a nicely readable way, giving them a narration and a consistent meaning and style | 11:29 |
| enrico | 3) "Review mode": as froud was saying | 11:29 |
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| === ogra offers dholbach a place at the bleachers | ||
| froud | I was thinking devs do svn up we give them xpath | 11:30 |
| trickie | great idea | 11:30 |
| froud | they check the node and add <!--comments--> or make direct edit | 11:30 |
| enrico | uh, and of course: | 11:30 |
| enrico | 4) Ready for release | 11:30 |
| froud | they make patch | 11:31 |
| enrico | Being a Debian Developer, I sometimes forget that there are releases :-) | 11:31 |
| Mithrandir | enrico :) | 11:31 |
| trickie | a patch would be good, because if they have content they would like to see, or a change to existing content, they don't usually have time to phrase it as the rest of the doc | 11:31 |
| froud | there are also more devs that writers | 11:32 |
| === enrico thinks it's safe to declare that the first main point "clarification of recent events" has been fully covered :) | ||
| froud | patches are easier to control | 11:32 |
| trickie | agreed | 11:32 |
| enrico | second point is: Releasing Hoary | 11:33 |
| Burgundavia | have we had a dev do a technical check of the docs? | 11:33 |
| enrico | can we safely conclude that the QuickGuide is in "review" phase as defined above by froud ? | 11:33 |
| trickie | enrico, have you heard anything about whether the .pot file i sent you for the quickguide was asustiable for the translators? | 11:34 |
| enrico | "edit should be limited to technical error, punctuation, spelling grammar" | 11:34 |
| === froud wonders how we get devs to do checks | ||
| === froud wonders how we notify devs | ||
| enrico | trickie: good question. I'm checking ubuntu-translators | 11:34 |
| ogra | froud, we are watching you | 11:34 |
| Burgundavia | I was about to say that | 11:35 |
| === froud tilts head to oneside | ||
| trickie | froud, maybe we should ask em? | 11:35 |
| trickie | ha ha ha | 11:35 |
| froud | you think they can see but not hear? | 11:35 |
| trickie | dunno, never can tell with those devs | 11:35 |
| trickie | :) | 11:35 |
| === froud pinches ogra for signs of life | ||
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| ogra | lol | 11:36 |
| enrico | trickie: I sent the potfile you gave me to Carlos Pereillo, but I still haven't heard back | 11:36 |
| froud | ogra: how can we notify devs in an orderly manner | 11:36 |
| enrico | Hello Liz! | 11:36 |
| mdz | Jeff Waugh (jdub) is already starting to review the docs | 11:36 |
| trickie | enrico, no probs! | 11:36 |
| Mithrandir | froud: bribery with beer always works. | 11:36 |
| Liz | hi enrico | 11:36 |
| Liz | morning all | 11:36 |
| mdz | but he probably needs some prodding | 11:36 |
| ogra | froud: you can drop by in #ubuntu-motu and call for help | 11:36 |
| trickie | mdz, ok, i'll warm up the taser | 11:37 |
| Liz | jeff lives on caffeine | 11:37 |
| froud | ogra: and are the devs ok with the process outlined above? | 11:37 |
| froud | I mean svn co, xpath etc | 11:37 |
| drasko | froud, how to know that? | 11:37 |
| ogra | froud: i think so, but you guys must keep in mind tha time is getting shorter for us as well with the nearig release time | 11:38 |
| froud | drasko: how to know what? | 11:38 |
| froud | ogra: that's why we giv eyou xpath | 11:38 |
| froud | you get just the nodes you must check | 11:38 |
| froud | not the whole doc | 11:38 |
| enrico | tricky thing is, the more we approach release, the more we need reviews from the devels | 11:38 |
| enrico | however | 11:38 |
| === ogra never used xpath, has to look into it | ||
| enrico | the more we approach release, the more we have to do without the devels | 11:39 |
| ogra | yup | 11:39 |
| enrico | froud: what for, xpath? | 11:39 |
| froud | xpath makes a query | 11:39 |
| drasko | froud, nevermind... I was wondering about devs. But ogra has been explanatory | 11:39 |
| froud | in xml | 11:39 |
| enrico | the good news is that if we write something wrong, we can always blame the devels who didn't check | 11:39 |
| Burgundavia | we probably only need one dev checkover, at the beginning of stage 3 | 11:39 |
| enrico | (redirecting blame is an ancient italian art :) | 11:40 |
| Burgundavia | after that, there is not supposed to be any new stuff going in | 11:40 |
| === Burgundavia looks around, whistles, turns red | ||
| ogra | enrico: its german too :) | 11:40 |
| drasko | enrico, gree | 11:40 |
| drasko | a | 11:40 |
| trickie | it would be nice to have something on the web, that wraps the current doc previews, and allows the devs to leave comments there?? comments?? | 11:40 |
| trickie | then they don't have to svn co | 11:41 |
| enrico | Burgundavia: just say that you were short of sleep :) | 11:41 |
| trickie | dunno just a spur of the moment thought | 11:41 |
| Burgundavia | I am always short of sleep | 11:41 |
| enrico | trickie: oh, it'd be nice | 11:41 |
| froud | ogra: example. please check | 11:41 |
| froud | /book[1] /chapter[3] /sect1[5] /sect2[2] /sect3[1] - id="qg-openoffice-ooow" status="complete"quickguide.xmlfile:/home/sean/projects/ubuntu/trunk/quickguide/quickguide.xml1728:0 | 11:41 |
| froud | /book[1] /chapter[3] /sect1[5] /sect2[2] /sect3[2] - id="qg-openoffice-oooc" status="complete"quickguide.xmlfile:/home/sean/projects/ubuntu/trunk/quickguide/quickguide.xml1737:0 | 11:41 |
| froud | /book[1] /chapter[3] /sect1[5] /sect2[2] /sect3[3] - id="qg-openoffice-oooi" status="complete"quickguide.xmlfile:/home/sean/projects/ubuntu/trunk/quickguide/quickguide.xml1746:0 | 11:41 |
| enrico | but there's no really good framework for annotating webpages afaik | 11:41 |
| enrico | everyone would like that, though | 11:41 |
| trickie | enrico, ok no prob | 11:42 |
| Burgundavia | what about just a post to ubuntu-doc? | 11:42 |
| enrico | froud: it's not trivial to generate those xpaths | 11:42 |
| froud | well it is. just //sect3 | 11:42 |
| trickie | enrico, it could be done by script based on status | 11:42 |
| froud | and you get the above | 11:42 |
| enrico | froud: what do you mean with //sect3? | 11:43 |
| froud | xpath starts with // | 11:43 |
| trickie | enrico, that gets all sect3's | 11:43 |
| froud | you want all sect3 | 11:43 |
| dholbach | froud: not always | 11:43 |
| enrico | Ah, ok, sure | 11:43 |
| dholbach | froud: you can also start with / - it depends | 11:43 |
| froud | you can also make it specific to a section //sect3[2] | 11:44 |
| === sm [~simon@lsanca1-ar5-4-60-060-085.lsanca1.dsl-verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| froud | will only show | 11:44 |
| enrico | froud: ah, ok, you didn't get me | 11:44 |
| dholbach | trickie: for the script you could use xmllint --path | 11:44 |
| froud | we already use xmllint in the validation | 11:44 |
| trickie | well when we generate the status reports for each doc, we can also generate the xpaths for all sections marked with a certain status | 11:44 |
| froud | .sh | 11:44 |
| enrico | I mean, I know xpath: what I meant is that there's no trivial methods to make them (say, clicking to some text and getting the xpath query to it) | 11:44 |
| dholbach | (although i'm not aware of what you're trying to do= | 11:45 |
| enrico | and there's no easy way to open up the document and jump to a given xpath | 11:45 |
| trickie | dholbach, thanks, exactly what i was thinking | 11:45 |
| froud | I think treebeard does that | 11:45 |
| enrico | treebeard? | 11:45 |
| froud | but it is java and I know how you love java | 11:45 |
| enrico | it's not in apt-cache search, so it doesn't exist :) | 11:46 |
| froud | http://treebeard.sourceforge.net/ | 11:46 |
| froud | then you must suffer :-0 | 11:46 |
| enrico | However, the problem here is to point a specific section to the devels | 11:46 |
| ogra | enrico: it does only mean that nobody pointed MOTU at it yet ;) | 11:46 |
| ogra | treebeard ^ | 11:47 |
| enrico | ogra: well, right. I've no familiar with that MOTU device, but it seems powerful | 11:47 |
| trickie | i reckon generating the xpaths when we build status reports is fine for now | 11:47 |
| froud | ok | 11:47 |
| ogra | enrico: the Masters of the Universe ;) | 11:47 |
| enrico | trickie: how do the devels get the text from the xpath, then? | 11:47 |
| froud | xpath returns the nodes and the values | 11:47 |
| enrico | froud: right, but that's not the best format for reading | 11:48 |
| enrico | Aren't there, say, HTML anchors? | 11:48 |
| froud | they can see it in the xml | 11:48 |
| froud | they should hav ethe xml src right | 11:48 |
| enrico | Like, making an HTML anchored link from the status page to the corresponding point in the real document? | 11:48 |
| froud | enrico: xml is sans presentation | 11:48 |
| froud | xpath takes you to the spot | 11:49 |
| enrico | Well, if the devels are happy with xpath queries, then I'm fine | 11:49 |
| === jeffsch thinks the devels are born with that kind of knowledge that allows them to deal with xpath | ||
| enrico | however, I fear it'd end up that they'd have to figure out how to get the text out of that, and would slip reviewing lower in their overful TODO-list | 11:49 |
| trickie | wel we could also generate the HTML links in the status report | 11:50 |
| enrico | at least, that's what my instinct tells me to do when I have my devel hat on :( | 11:50 |
| === froud points anyone who does not know XPath to http://www.zvon.org/xxl/XPathTutorial/General/examples.html | ||
| enrico | Right. To pull that all together | 11:50 |
| enrico | I'd say: ask the devels for review | 11:50 |
| enrico | if you find some who want xpath, give them xpath | 11:51 |
| enrico | else, give them "street directions": "go to the title "Fooish bar", turn right, follow the path until the big tree, then go down a section and it's after the third comma: you can't be wrong" | 11:51 |
| enrico | It all boils down to negotiating the preferred way with the other endpoint of the conversation | 11:52 |
| ogra | yeah, with gps navigation :) | 11:52 |
| froud | +1 | 11:52 |
| Burgundavia | and I say any sort of dev feedback is good feedback | 11:52 |
| froud | +1 | 11:52 |
| enrico | depending on who this other endpoint is every time | 11:52 |
| trickie | agreed | 11:52 |
| Mithrandir | enrico: I'm not following the doc stuff closely, but are all docs in XML files? | 11:52 |
| enrico | Mithrandir: yes | 11:53 |
| froud | those in svn are | 11:53 |
| enrico | Mithrandir: DocBook XML | 11:53 |
| ogra | Mithrandir: yelp compatibility :) | 11:53 |
| enrico | So, we have a QuickGuide to submit to the devels for review. jdub's on it already, but he should be pinged | 11:53 |
| Mithrandir | enrico: ok. DocBook just makes me want to stab myself with a spoon or something. | 11:53 |
| enrico | people, meet Mithrandir | 11:53 |
| trickie | hi | 11:53 |
| === Mithrandir ducks and hides | ||
| === froud hands Mithrandir a spoon | ||
| enrico | Mithrandir is more of a Kernel guy than a documentation guy :) | 11:54 |
| === froud hands Mithrandir a spade | ||
| Mithrandir | enrico: I don't do kernel stuff. toolchain and low-level stuff is fine, though. | 11:54 |
| enrico | Ok, he's a GCC hacker | 11:54 |
| === Mithrandir puts the spoon and spade into his toolbox. | ||
| froud | Mithrandir: you will do just fine then | 11:54 |
| Mithrandir | I guess so. (: | 11:55 |
| enrico | Rusty said he became a kernel hacker because he couldn't understand what gcc hackers were talking about | 11:55 |
| froud | b'sides you dont have to do the docbook stuff, just check the text :-) | 11:55 |
| Mithrandir | gcc is simple. | 11:55 |
| enrico | Mithrandir: right. I can't even read to the end of the manpage :) | 11:55 |
| enrico | well, I can, but not everyday | 11:55 |
| Mithrandir | froud: most of my stuff doesn't really have any docs per se, it's porting work, but I guess I'll manage. | 11:55 |
| Mithrandir | enrico: the source is easier to understand. | 11:55 |
| Burgundavia | back to releasing hoary | 11:56 |
| froud | yes | 11:56 |
| froud | +1 | 11:56 |
| enrico | Burgundavia: yes | 11:56 |
| Burgundavia | so we need a dev to check our stuff | 11:56 |
| Burgundavia | what else? | 11:56 |
| enrico | jdub's on it, so we're fine (provided we ping him) | 11:56 |
| froud | http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=170074 | 11:56 |
| froud | the xref problem | 11:56 |
| Burgundavia | ah yes | 11:56 |
| froud | can one of the devs please fix this in yelp | 11:57 |
| Burgundavia | now that 2.10 is out, can that be fixed for 2.10.1? | 11:57 |
| enrico | mdz: that is Yelp needing fixing | 11:57 |
| Burgundavia | doc team is yelping at you mdz | 11:57 |
| enrico | Is there a way to open a bugzilla item on ubuntu linked to that bugzilla item on Gnome? | 11:58 |
| Burgundavia | if that can't be fixed, where do we go from there? | 11:58 |
| Burgundavia | enrico: you can just list it in the bug comments | 11:58 |
| enrico | Burgundavia: ok | 11:58 |
| Burgundavia | seb128 does that | 11:58 |
| enrico | We can report that as a bug for Yelp, then give it to seb | 11:58 |
| enrico | however, that report is not that easy to understand | 11:59 |
| Burgundavia | a screenshot and code might be helpful | 11:59 |
| Burgundavia | I will do that | 11:59 |
| enrico | Burgundavia: that's great" | 11:59 |
| enrico | Burgundavia: that's great! | 11:59 |
| froud | https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=6899 | 11:59 |
| froud | the scrollkeeper/omf problem | 12:00 |
| froud | how to get ubuntu in top level of yelp | 12:00 |
| enrico | jdub was trying to figure it out | 12:00 |
| enrico | however (guess?) we need to ping him :) | 12:01 |
| froud | If those tow bugs can be closed then the docs are good for go after tech review | 12:01 |
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