=== Alessio [~Alessio@host113-4.pool8251.interbusiness.it] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === kent [~kent@c83-249-61-222.bredband.comhem.se] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Lmnar"] === maskie [~maskie@196-30-108-201.uudial.uunet.co.za] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] === OddAbe19 [~OddAbe19@pcp02542642pcs.lncstr01.pa.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === OddAbe19 [~OddAbe19@pcp02542642pcs.lncstr01.pa.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === OddAbe19 [~OddAbe19@pcp02542642pcs.lncstr01.pa.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === OddAbe19 [~OddAbe19@pcp02542642pcs.lncstr01.pa.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ajmitch [~ajmitch@port161-235.ubs.maxnet.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === doko [~doko___@dsl-084-059-039-227.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Alessio [~Alessio@host113-4.pool8251.interbusiness.it] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pitti [~martin@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === crimsun [~crimsun@crimsun.silver.supporter.pdpc] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Seveas [dennis@seveas.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === apokryphos [~apokrypho@host-84-9-32-243.bulldogdsl.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === froud [~froud@ndn-165-131-237.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === smurfix [~smurf@run.smurf.noris.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Simira [~simira@16.80-202-208.nextgentel.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [03:34] Kamion: ping? === maskie [~maskie@196-30-108-201.uudial.uunet.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Seveas [dennis@seveas.demon.nl] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] === Simira [~simira@16.80-202-208.nextgentel.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ogra [~ogra@pD95F8778.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mdke [~matt@mdke.user] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === HostingGeek [~HG@200.48.233.220.exetel.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [07:51] tooo many meetings === HostingGeek [~HG@200.48.233.220.exetel.com.au] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Thank] === mdke [~matt@mdke.user] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jeffsch [~jeffsch@fatwire-203-183.uniserve.ca] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === enrico [~enrico@enrico.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === enrico walks in and hangs the coat on the side === mdz [~mdz@ca-studio-bsr1o-251.vnnyca.adelphia.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === froud wakes up from dead sleep === trickie [~trickie@203-166-242-109.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jeffsch walks in, trips over shoelace [11:08] nhla lets do this thing [11:08] enrico: you lead === evarlast [~ejrw@pcp02588190pcs.shlb1201.mi.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === drasko [~drasko@kds8-085.ptt.yu] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [11:09] are we all there? [11:09] here [11:09] here [11:10] here [11:10] what's first topic enrico === enrico pulls up the wiki page [11:10] hi all... === ogra waves from the bleachers [11:11] Good. === enrico coughs === Burgundavia [~Burgundav@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [11:11] Good morning/afternoon/evening/night, ladies and gentlemen [11:11] hello [11:12] Welcome to the third Ubuntu Docteam Meeting === froud nods in the direction of Burgundavia === ari__ [~ari@GKMCXXVIII.dsl.saunalahti.fi] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [11:12] I'm loosely leading the session, and I'll post minutes to the mailing list and in the wiki [11:13] We have three main topics in the agenda: [11:13] 1) Clarification of recent events [11:13] 2) Releasing Hoary [11:13] 3) Post Hoary [11:14] i posted the first topic on the wiki, because i was not understanding what was going on very recentyl in regards to the team [11:14] We can start with the first one, just quickly I'd say: we seem to have reached harmony, and I don't want to shake it too much :) [11:14] basically Burgundavia and I kissed and made up [11:15] right [11:15] love is in the air... [11:15] well I am single [11:15] ha ha ha === enrico hugs Burgundavia [11:15] I have a personal take on the event, though [11:15] however as general we need some guidelines to contributions at various dev stages [11:16] prose are not code [11:16] froud: yes. We've been needing some freeze, or half-freeze, for quite a while [11:16] phases like: planning, writing, editing, release? [11:16] jeffsch: yes [11:17] we have used @status in the docs [11:17] if people want I can change them === enrico likes the idea [11:17] I mean, the idea of phases [11:17] I'd just remove the "planning" phase [11:17] normally we use outline, first draft, second draft, camera ready [11:17] It seems to me like the analogue of the "work in progess" icon on webpages [11:18] Sometimes it helps to make it so that either a work starts, or it isn't there. "planning" phases tend to sit there forever [11:18] outlining is a plan [11:18] froud: ah, ok [11:18] see it as a skeleton [11:18] thats how i see it [11:19] from outline we can derive status docs [11:19] and allocate work between us [11:19] after each decides on a section we prepare first draft [11:19] collectively [11:20] then we switch sections as we go to second draft [11:20] each checks and edits the other [11:20] after second draft we do technical review [11:20] at which point major edit should be limited to [11:21] technical error, punctuation, spelling grammar [11:21] opinions [11:21] You need a tightly coupled team to for the switching sections part to be successful [11:22] i agree, using those phases and limiting edits in certian phases will certainly increase our productivity [11:22] big changes near a release are not good: one thing gets fixed, and two get broken. it is normal for that to happen [11:22] enrico: what do you suggest [11:22] But I think the limiting edits to "technical error, punctuation, spelling grammar" is a good step [11:23] I mean, a step to make at some point [11:23] if someone sees something they would like to change (majorly) but it is already in final draft, then they should line it up for the next release [11:23] yes, in each release the docs should go through the same phases [11:23] over the course of several releases [11:23] From what froud said, I'd keep at least the freeze-like phase, and apply it to the QuickGuide now [11:23] quality and quanity is built [11:24] over time and provided that the whole OS does not change, stability is created [11:24] froud: yes. I'm curious to see what the QuickGuide will have become by Grumpy or Perky [11:24] I am not sure how smoothly the switching sections bit will be either... but it will only be easier as participation grows [11:25] yes, Quick Guide is the platform to build on [11:25] .oO(I guess people will have noticed that I'm a shameless fan of the quickguide) [11:25] trickie: the switching happens on nodes [11:25] some nodes move faster than others [11:26] basically the @status shows the stage a node is at [11:26] yes agreed on that, whether every node gets to go through the whole process or not is what i meant [11:26] so status="first-draft" [11:26] the main problem I see is the interaction with the technical review [11:27] it's not such a problem with quick guide [11:27] but for user and admin guides it will be === enrico thinks [11:27] we need devs to do the technical reviews [11:27] yes, we will have to probably include developers [11:27] and to save them time [11:27] yes [11:27] we have to give specific reference to what they should check [11:28] a dev read over might be a good thing at certain point [11:28] I like the idea, but I'm still wondering if it applies to the more caotic nature of our project [11:28] catch things like the sudo error [11:28] I was however liking the idea of phases [11:28] Burgundavia: yes :-) [11:28] How about: [11:28] yes i found dev feedback for the release notes was good, but because i asked for general review and comments it came in over a few weeks [11:28] 1) "Wiki mode": everyone adds contents everywhere, even comments [11:29] 2) "Style mode": people pull the contents of a section together in a nicely readable way, giving them a narration and a consistent meaning and style [11:29] 3) "Review mode": as froud was saying === dholbach [~daniel@td9091a4a.pool.terralink.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ogra offers dholbach a place at the bleachers [11:30] I was thinking devs do svn up we give them xpath [11:30] great idea [11:30] they check the node and add or make direct edit [11:30] uh, and of course: [11:30] 4) Ready for release [11:31] they make patch [11:31] Being a Debian Developer, I sometimes forget that there are releases :-) [11:31] enrico :) [11:31] a patch would be good, because if they have content they would like to see, or a change to existing content, they don't usually have time to phrase it as the rest of the doc [11:32] there are also more devs that writers === enrico thinks it's safe to declare that the first main point "clarification of recent events" has been fully covered :) [11:32] patches are easier to control [11:32] agreed [11:33] second point is: Releasing Hoary [11:33] have we had a dev do a technical check of the docs? [11:33] can we safely conclude that the QuickGuide is in "review" phase as defined above by froud ? [11:34] enrico, have you heard anything about whether the .pot file i sent you for the quickguide was asustiable for the translators? [11:34] "edit should be limited to technical error, punctuation, spelling grammar" === froud wonders how we get devs to do checks === froud wonders how we notify devs [11:34] trickie: good question. I'm checking ubuntu-translators [11:34] froud, we are watching you [11:35] I was about to say that === froud tilts head to oneside [11:35] froud, maybe we should ask em? [11:35] ha ha ha [11:35] you think they can see but not hear? [11:35] dunno, never can tell with those devs [11:35] :) === froud pinches ogra for signs of life === Liz [~maori@203.87.27.63] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [11:36] lol [11:36] trickie: I sent the potfile you gave me to Carlos Pereillo, but I still haven't heard back [11:36] ogra: how can we notify devs in an orderly manner [11:36] Hello Liz! [11:36] Jeff Waugh (jdub) is already starting to review the docs [11:36] enrico, no probs! [11:36] froud: bribery with beer always works. [11:36] hi enrico [11:36] morning all [11:36] but he probably needs some prodding [11:36] froud: you can drop by in #ubuntu-motu and call for help [11:37] mdz, ok, i'll warm up the taser [11:37] jeff lives on caffeine [11:37] ogra: and are the devs ok with the process outlined above? [11:37] I mean svn co, xpath etc [11:37] froud, how to know that? [11:38] froud: i think so, but you guys must keep in mind tha time is getting shorter for us as well with the nearig release time [11:38] drasko: how to know what? [11:38] ogra: that's why we giv eyou xpath [11:38] you get just the nodes you must check [11:38] not the whole doc [11:38] tricky thing is, the more we approach release, the more we need reviews from the devels [11:38] however === ogra never used xpath, has to look into it [11:39] the more we approach release, the more we have to do without the devels [11:39] yup [11:39] froud: what for, xpath? [11:39] xpath makes a query [11:39] froud, nevermind... I was wondering about devs. But ogra has been explanatory [11:39] in xml [11:39] the good news is that if we write something wrong, we can always blame the devels who didn't check [11:39] we probably only need one dev checkover, at the beginning of stage 3 [11:40] (redirecting blame is an ancient italian art :) [11:40] after that, there is not supposed to be any new stuff going in === Burgundavia looks around, whistles, turns red [11:40] enrico: its german too :) [11:40] enrico, gree [11:40] a [11:40] it would be nice to have something on the web, that wraps the current doc previews, and allows the devs to leave comments there?? comments?? [11:41] then they don't have to svn co [11:41] Burgundavia: just say that you were short of sleep :) [11:41] dunno just a spur of the moment thought [11:41] I am always short of sleep [11:41] trickie: oh, it'd be nice [11:41] ogra: example. please check [11:41] /book[1] /chapter[3] /sect1[5] /sect2[2] /sect3[1] - id="qg-openoffice-ooow" status="complete" quickguide.xml file:/home/sean/projects/ubuntu/trunk/quickguide/quickguide.xml 1728:0 [11:41] /book[1] /chapter[3] /sect1[5] /sect2[2] /sect3[2] - id="qg-openoffice-oooc" status="complete" quickguide.xml file:/home/sean/projects/ubuntu/trunk/quickguide/quickguide.xml 1737:0 [11:41] /book[1] /chapter[3] /sect1[5] /sect2[2] /sect3[3] - id="qg-openoffice-oooi" status="complete" quickguide.xml file:/home/sean/projects/ubuntu/trunk/quickguide/quickguide.xml 1746:0 [11:41] but there's no really good framework for annotating webpages afaik [11:41] everyone would like that, though [11:42] enrico, ok no prob [11:42] what about just a post to ubuntu-doc? [11:42] froud: it's not trivial to generate those xpaths [11:42] well it is. just //sect3 [11:42] enrico, it could be done by script based on status [11:42] and you get the above [11:43] froud: what do you mean with //sect3? [11:43] xpath starts with // [11:43] enrico, that gets all sect3's [11:43] you want all sect3 [11:43] froud: not always [11:43] Ah, ok, sure [11:43] froud: you can also start with / - it depends [11:44] you can also make it specific to a section //sect3[2] === sm [~simon@lsanca1-ar5-4-60-060-085.lsanca1.dsl-verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [11:44] will only show [11:44] froud: ah, ok, you didn't get me [11:44] trickie: for the script you could use xmllint --path [11:44] we already use xmllint in the validation [11:44] well when we generate the status reports for each doc, we can also generate the xpaths for all sections marked with a certain status [11:44] .sh [11:44] I mean, I know xpath: what I meant is that there's no trivial methods to make them (say, clicking to some text and getting the xpath query to it) [11:45] (although i'm not aware of what you're trying to do= [11:45] and there's no easy way to open up the document and jump to a given xpath [11:45] dholbach, thanks, exactly what i was thinking [11:45] I think treebeard does that [11:45] treebeard? [11:45] but it is java and I know how you love java [11:46] it's not in apt-cache search, so it doesn't exist :) [11:46] http://treebeard.sourceforge.net/ [11:46] then you must suffer :-0 [11:46] However, the problem here is to point a specific section to the devels [11:46] enrico: it does only mean that nobody pointed MOTU at it yet ;) [11:47] treebeard ^ [11:47] ogra: well, right. I've no familiar with that MOTU device, but it seems powerful [11:47] i reckon generating the xpaths when we build status reports is fine for now [11:47] ok [11:47] enrico: the Masters of the Universe ;) [11:47] trickie: how do the devels get the text from the xpath, then? [11:47] xpath returns the nodes and the values [11:48] froud: right, but that's not the best format for reading [11:48] Aren't there, say, HTML anchors? [11:48] they can see it in the xml [11:48] they should hav ethe xml src right [11:48] Like, making an HTML anchored link from the status page to the corresponding point in the real document? [11:48] enrico: xml is sans presentation [11:49] xpath takes you to the spot [11:49] Well, if the devels are happy with xpath queries, then I'm fine === jeffsch thinks the devels are born with that kind of knowledge that allows them to deal with xpath [11:49] however, I fear it'd end up that they'd have to figure out how to get the text out of that, and would slip reviewing lower in their overful TODO-list [11:50] wel we could also generate the HTML links in the status report [11:50] at least, that's what my instinct tells me to do when I have my devel hat on :( === froud points anyone who does not know XPath to http://www.zvon.org/xxl/XPathTutorial/General/examples.html [11:50] Right. To pull that all together [11:50] I'd say: ask the devels for review [11:51] if you find some who want xpath, give them xpath [11:51] else, give them "street directions": "go to the title "Fooish bar", turn right, follow the path until the big tree, then go down a section and it's after the third comma: you can't be wrong" [11:52] It all boils down to negotiating the preferred way with the other endpoint of the conversation [11:52] yeah, with gps navigation :) [11:52] +1 [11:52] and I say any sort of dev feedback is good feedback [11:52] +1 [11:52] depending on who this other endpoint is every time [11:52] agreed [11:52] enrico: I'm not following the doc stuff closely, but are all docs in XML files? [11:53] Mithrandir: yes [11:53] those in svn are [11:53] Mithrandir: DocBook XML [11:53] Mithrandir: yelp compatibility :) [11:53] So, we have a QuickGuide to submit to the devels for review. jdub's on it already, but he should be pinged [11:53] enrico: ok. DocBook just makes me want to stab myself with a spoon or something. [11:53] people, meet Mithrandir [11:53] hi === Mithrandir ducks and hides === froud hands Mithrandir a spoon [11:54] Mithrandir is more of a Kernel guy than a documentation guy :) === froud hands Mithrandir a spade [11:54] enrico: I don't do kernel stuff. toolchain and low-level stuff is fine, though. [11:54] Ok, he's a GCC hacker === Mithrandir puts the spoon and spade into his toolbox. [11:54] Mithrandir: you will do just fine then [11:55] I guess so. (: [11:55] Rusty said he became a kernel hacker because he couldn't understand what gcc hackers were talking about [11:55] b'sides you dont have to do the docbook stuff, just check the text :-) [11:55] gcc is simple. [11:55] Mithrandir: right. I can't even read to the end of the manpage :) [11:55] well, I can, but not everyday [11:55] froud: most of my stuff doesn't really have any docs per se, it's porting work, but I guess I'll manage. [11:55] enrico: the source is easier to understand. [11:56] back to releasing hoary [11:56] yes [11:56] +1 [11:56] Burgundavia: yes [11:56] so we need a dev to check our stuff [11:56] what else? [11:56] jdub's on it, so we're fine (provided we ping him) [11:56] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=170074 [11:56] the xref problem [11:56] ah yes [11:57] can one of the devs please fix this in yelp [11:57] now that 2.10 is out, can that be fixed for 2.10.1? [11:57] mdz: that is Yelp needing fixing [11:57] doc team is yelping at you mdz [11:58] Is there a way to open a bugzilla item on ubuntu linked to that bugzilla item on Gnome? [11:58] if that can't be fixed, where do we go from there? [11:58] enrico: you can just list it in the bug comments [11:58] Burgundavia: ok [11:58] seb128 does that [11:58] We can report that as a bug for Yelp, then give it to seb [11:59] however, that report is not that easy to understand [11:59] a screenshot and code might be helpful [11:59] I will do that [11:59] Burgundavia: that's great" [11:59] Burgundavia: that's great! [11:59] https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=6899 [12:00] the scrollkeeper/omf problem [12:00] how to get ubuntu in top level of yelp [12:00] jdub was trying to figure it out [12:01] however (guess?) we need to ping him :) [12:01] If those tow bugs can be closed then the docs are good for go after tech review