[12:02] <Burgundavia> the yelp bug makes the docs almost unreadable, IMHO
[12:02] <enrico> Right.
[12:02] <Burgundavia> what if we don't get it fixed?
[12:02] <froud> Plain HTML
[12:02] <froud> :-)
[12:02] <trickie> agreed
[12:02] <froud> Any Web Browser Compatible
[12:02] <Burgundavia> sounds good
[12:02] <Burgundavia> are we going to ship HTML anyway?
[12:02] <Mithrandir> Burgundavia: do you have a real help page where the yelp problem shows?
[12:03] <enrico> Ok.  For translation we're waiting for feedback from the translation team
[12:03] <Mithrandir> (so I don't have to browse around for it)
[12:03] <Burgundavia> Mithrandir: install quickguide
[12:03] <enrico> Burgundavia: sure: in /usr/share/doc/<package>
[12:03] <enrico> Mithrandir: package is ubuntu-quickguide
[12:04] <trickie> enrico, i have also been looking into rebuilding xml from .po files, i'll keep ya psoted
[12:04] <trickie> posted
[12:04] <Burgundavia> look at  getting started --> login in the quickguide
[12:04] <Burgundavia> Mithrandir: users and groups and ubuntu update manager should not be a title like that
[12:04] <enrico> trickie: so good!  Thanks!
[12:04] <trickie> enrico, np at all!
[12:05] <enrico> I think we have a clear schedule about releasing Hoary, now
[12:05] <froud> one more thing
[12:05] <enrico> froud: sure
[12:05] <froud> trickie and I discussed BitTorrent
[12:06] <Mithrandir> Burgundavia: it's in the about ubuntu under other documentation, right?
[12:06] <Burgundavia> Mithrandir: yep
[12:06] <froud> enrico: we need to finish it
[12:06] <froud> http://people.ubuntu.com/~mako/docteam/status/qg-report.html
[12:06] <enrico> froud: ok
[12:07] <froud> problem is none of     us know how to get started with using it
[12:07] <trickie> i have used it
[12:07] <Burgundavia> what is important about bittorrent, if I understand, is that the launcher in the menu is for sharing stuff out
[12:07] <froud> so I guess niether will users
[12:07] <froud> when you fist start it you need to specify a file
[12:08] <froud> and that's where I got stuck
[12:08] <trickie> froud, a torrent file?
[12:08] <froud> dunno I guess
[12:08] <trickie> i can write this bit
[12:08] <Burgundavia> trickie: no, it is looking for some sort of meta file to share stuff out I think
[12:09] <froud> and add a screencapt
[12:09] <enrico> How about we just ask on #ubuntu-users for people using BitTorrent?
[12:09] <trickie> Burgundavia, really? i thought it was a client program
[12:09] <Burgundavia> bitorrent is both
[12:09] <Burgundavia> I just checked. It will take just a straight torrent
[12:09] <Burgundavia> I stand corrected
[12:10] <mdz> enrico: you need something from me?
[12:10] <Burgundavia> but the users are almost never going to actually use it that way
[12:10] <enrico> froud: BitTorrent is good for downlading.  It speeds things up by sharing what you downloaded already, so that you find many peoplet o download from
[12:10] <Burgundavia> mostly they will click on links within their browsers, or double click on files in nautilus
[12:10] <enrico> mdz: yesterday you asked if Yelp needs fixing: it doesn
[12:10] <enrico> does
[12:10] <froud> Ok, what ever so long as somebody can write it cooorrectly
[12:11] <enrico> mdz: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=170074
[12:11] <mdz> enrico: ok, do you have a list?
[12:11] <enrico> mdz: Burgundavia will post more info about htat bug
[12:11] <enrico> mdz: then there's the "show our docs in the front" part that you said jdub is working on
[12:11] <trickie> Burgundavia, you wanna do the torrent app?
[12:12] <trickie> Burgundavia, i just use it like you have just tested
[12:12] <Burgundavia> ok
[12:12] <Burgundavia> I can do that
[12:12] <froud> Burgundavia: thanks
[12:12] <trickie> Burgundavia, i didn't know it was integrated into nautilus etc etc
[12:12] <trickie> Burgundavia, excellent!
[12:12] <Burgundavia> should be
[12:12] <Burgundavia> if it isn't, it is a bug
[12:13] <froud> enrico: that should be all for release requirements
[12:13] <enrico> froud: good, I was about to say the same
[12:13] <enrico> Third and last point
[12:13] <enrico> .oO(I fear)
[12:13] <enrico> post Hoary!
[12:13] <Mithrandir> Burgundavia: ok, I understand what the bug is now -- for some reason, I had two quick guides registered and the first was _really_ broken, so it took me a bit of time
[12:13] <Burgundavia> Mithrandir: hmm
[12:14] <Burgundavia> I spewed my mind
[12:14] <Burgundavia> now I want to hear other peoples ideas
[12:14] <froud> enrico: to yelp or not to yelp
[12:14] <enrico> Discussing about post-hoary now is tricky
[12:14] <enrico> that is, we risk talking forever
[12:14] <froud> Discussion with Riddell 
[12:14] <Burgundavia> that is why we discussed it last
[12:14] <froud> on #kubuntu
[12:15] <Riddell> hello
[12:15] <froud> kde team would also like docs
[12:15] <enrico> Hi Riddell !
[12:15] <froud> enrico: Riddell likes Quick Guide
[12:15] <ogra> quick guide is great :)
[12:15] <ogra> opposite to FAQ which is horrible
[12:16] <froud> Riddell: would also like doc on http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/InstallingKDE
[12:16] <ogra> (but thats my personal opinion)
[12:16] <Riddell> if we could get that guide with KDE info in it that would be great, marked so that you can convert to HTML with KDE paragraphs or with gnome ones
[12:16] <Burgundavia> ogra: that is faqguide from ubuntuguide.org?
[12:16] <enrico> Oh, now that I think about it
[12:16] <ogra> Burgundavia: which is as wrong as anything can be, yes
[12:16] <enrico> We also have to consider if we want the FAQGuide in Hoary or not
[12:16] <Burgundavia> ogra: good idea, but implementation
[12:17] <Burgundavia> s/but/bad
[12:17] <enrico> It's got two problems at least:
[12:17] <enrico> 1) It covers warty
[12:17] <enrico> 2) It's not in sync with what's on ubuntuguide.org
[12:17] <froud> enrico: it would need concerted effort of a week
[12:17] <Burgundavia> I would add 3. not in the ubuntu style
[12:17] <ogra> enrico: its not ubuntu at all
[12:17] <froud> enrico: for KDE do you think we can do K Quick Guide?
[12:17] <Burgundavia> ie, use the default apps, the graphical ones, etc.
[12:18] <enrico> I tried to reach Chua but he's not replying at the moment
[12:18] <Riddell> froud: how do you mean?
[12:18] <ogra> its originated from a redhat guide with very less changes
[12:18] <enrico> He must be busy.  I hope nothing bad happened to him
[12:18] <ogra> and will need a LOT of changes
[12:18] <froud> Post hoary we should develop verion of quick guide for kde
[12:18] <enrico> ogra: ??
[12:18] <Burgundavia> have they stablised on apps for kbuntu hoary+1
[12:18] <Burgundavia> ?
[12:19] <enrico> ogra: the quickguide.org originated mainly from the wiki afaik
[12:19] <froud> Burgundavia: doesnt matter
[12:19] <trickie> froud, +1
[12:19] <Burgundavia> I don't use kde, but I don't see why we should exclude them
[12:19] <ogra> enrico: telling a user to edit xorg.conf without telling him that he cant use any automated system tool that touches the file anymore is very bad manner
[12:19] <Riddell> Burgundavia: we havn't stabalised on apps for hoary yet, but will do this week
[12:19] <enrico> So, I'm considering proposing not to package the faqguide in Hoary after all
[12:20] <Burgundavia> ogra: and not telling them about the graphical tool that does the job too
[12:20] <ogra> there are special steps to take for such an edit
[12:20] <ogra> Burgundavia+++
[12:20] <Burgundavia> enrico: +1
[12:20] <enrico> ogra: did you send a mail to Chua telling thim a better way for it?
[12:20] <trickie> enrico, +1
[12:20] <ogra> enrico: several, he always told me he would correct it, he never did
[12:20] <ogra> that was at the beginning or warty
[12:20] <Burgundavia> ok, but I feel there is a niche there that we should fill
[12:21] <enrico> ogra: remember he had *Dengue fever*
[12:21] <ogra> its good as an advanced guide for people who know what they are doing
[12:21] <enrico> ogra: that's quite a bad one to have.  It got him stuck quite severely
[12:21] <Burgundavia> as ubuntuguide.org and the FAQ forums aren't giving good advice
[12:21] <ogra> enrico: since when, we talked oin oct 2004 till nov 2004
[12:22] <enrico> ogra: after the conf in Matar
[12:22] <ogra> enrico: so we talked long before....
[12:22] <enrico> He was fine after the Tsunami and for new Year's Day
[12:22] <enrico> he got sick after that
[12:22] <Burgundavia> so can we take the faqguide and ubuntuize it? I would be happy to lead this effort
[12:23] <froud> enrico: FAQ GUIDE should be in Docbook FAQ format
[12:23] <enrico> Burgundavia: I tried to sync with Chua to do that together
[12:23] <ogra> enrico: i was doing a lot of support in #ubuntu at this time and was tired of fixing the broken systems that resulted from following the guide
[12:23] <enrico> ogra: ok
[12:23] <ogra> enrico: bob2 is still doing this support job, you guys should get him in the process
[12:24] <froud> Burgundavia: can you do it in <!DOCTYPE faq
[12:24] <Burgundavia> froud: I can learn
[12:24] <enrico> ogra: support!
[12:24] <ogra> yay
[12:24] <froud> +1
[12:24] <enrico> ogra: I didn't know there was someone doing support especially
[12:24] <enrico> ogra: the docteam should really be in touch with people doing support
[12:24] <ogra> enrico: i have the choice betwenn support and devel.... :) i moved on :)
[12:25] <ogra> but will go into support again after release..... to fill the gap :)
[12:26] <Burgundavia> froud: hard to do, when more and more of what you want to show people is gui-based
[12:26] <enrico> ogra: it's imperative to have support in touch with docteam
[12:26] <froud> I would like to know what people think of staying neutral
[12:26] <Liz> neutral
[12:26] <enrico> docteam can help support (such has, with relevant FAQs) and support helps the docteam (for example, providing the list of relevan questions)
[12:26] <ogra> enrico: i know, thats why i attend this meeting ;)
[12:26] <trickie> froud, it would be great, but i do not know exactly how we would do it
[12:27] <froud> Th eproblem is the incompatability between khelpcenter and yelp
[12:27] <enrico> what format does khelpcenter eat?
[12:27] <froud> if we use things like ghelp:foo we get locked to yelp
[12:27] <froud> html
[12:27] <froud> xhtml
[12:27] <trickie> froud, oh, you are talking about doc format? not screenshots etc
[12:27] <froud> man
[12:28] <enrico> froud: ok
[12:28] <froud> yes
[12:28] <froud> I dont care about hthe presentation layers
[12:28] <froud> they dont exist
[12:28] <froud> so long at the src can be used cross desktop I am happy
[12:29] <Burgundavia> so to round up this part:
[12:29] <Burgundavia> 1. talk to support people
[12:29] <trickie> I really like html based docs, i can use them anywhere, including when i am not using a linux desktop at all
[12:29] <Burgundavia> 2. desktop neutral docs
[12:29] <Burgundavia> 3. ubuntuize faqguide, with screenshots
[12:30] <froud> 4. K Quick Guide
[12:30] <Burgundavia> One further thing, we should have a better web presence for these docs
[12:30] <froud> How do people feel about LearnLinux with Ubuntu
[12:30] <trickie> froud, i like it
[12:30] <froud> http://learnlinux.tsf.org.za/
[12:30] <froud> The src is there
[12:31] <trickie> 5. We need a trnaslation support policy too
[12:31] <froud> I have a drop in my local and am customizing
[12:31] <drasko> froud, I am interested
[12:31] <froud> are people ok if I commit the src at some point
[12:31] <Liz> ive already started that course
[12:31] <froud> Liz: cool
[12:32] <froud> I havked the code
[12:32] <froud> I have forked the code
[12:32] <froud> I also have a fork for a glossary database
[12:32] <Burgundavia> cool idea
[12:32] <jeffsch> it sounds like a great idea
[12:33] <froud> http://computerdictionary.tsf.org.za/
[12:33] <froud> this is a fork from TLDP Linux Dictionary
[12:33] <froud> both docs are under CC-BY-SA 2.0
[12:33] <froud> we have a dual license policy
[12:33] <froud> anyone see any problems here
[12:34] <Burgundavia> ?
[12:34] <Burgundavia> aside from the cc and gfdl are not compatible?
[12:34] <froud> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamLicense
[12:34] <Burgundavia> we can make an exception for this stuff
[12:35] <froud> mako: ping
[12:35] <enrico> the original idea ws to make a web alias
[12:35] <froud> yes
[12:36] <froud> enrico: do you still want it that way?
[12:36] <enrico> but that hasn't been made yet
[12:36] <froud> enrico: leanlinux needs some work to become ubuntu
[12:36] <froud> but the base is debain
[12:36] <froud> debian
[12:37] <enrico> we basically have to decide what to put into the web alias site
[12:37] <froud> how do you mean
[12:37] <trickie> enrico, 'web alias site', what is that?
[12:38] <enrico> froud: the web alias pointing at mako's pages, which does not exist yet, but was in Mako's and Elmo's 
[12:38] <enrico> sotty:
[12:38] <enrico> It was ot mako's and mine intentions
[12:39] <froud> enrico: you lostme 
[12:39] <enrico> froud: that's because I'm barely awake now
[12:39] <enrico> you were asking about the web presence 
[12:39] <froud> hey dude its 1:30 am and I now hav emy second wind
[12:39] <enrico> I told the original way was to make a nice web alias pointing at mkako's wbespace
[12:39] <froud> r we speaking about the same stuff here
[12:39] <Burgundavia> why don't we meet again and discuss this
[12:40] <trickie> Burgundavia, +1
[12:40] <Burgundavia> we have some stuff decided
[12:40] <enrico> wouldn't be a bad idea
[12:40] <enrico> right.  We have everything for releasing Hoary
[12:40] <jeffsch> it is very sunny here
[12:40] <enrico> I do have one concern though
[12:40] <enrico> that is:
[12:40] <enrico> We now picked up rhythm by writing in the QuickGuide.  Now that's almost finished: how do we keep up teh rhythm?
[12:41] <jeffsch> what is next thing that needs to be complete?
[12:41] <trickie> I would like to start getting into the Admin guide
[12:41] <froud> continue with either FAQ, ADMIN or USER
[12:41] <froud> and or LearnLinux
[12:41] <trickie> and also working with enrico to get translations working
[12:41] <enrico> i'd also like to lay our hands on some upstream documentation
[12:42] <froud> we have problems in that area
[12:42] <jeffsch> and is it too early to think about a style guide?
[12:42] <enrico> Like, improbing the Gnome User Manual and other existnig docu
[12:42] <enrico> but yes, that'd change our process in sme way
[12:42] <froud> upstream is scattered far and wide
[12:42] <froud> today I wante dto fix stuff in synaptic
[12:43] <froud> which repos to patch against
[12:43] <froud> mako points to mvo
[12:43] <froud> does mvo have own snapshot
[12:43] <froud> or do I go to top src
[12:44] <froud> https://oops.kerneljanitors.org/repos/synaptic/trunk/help/C/
[12:44] <froud> this question arises time and again
[12:44] <froud> which GNOME User Manual to Update
[12:44] <froud> the one in gnome.org
[12:45] <froud> or the one in some ubuntu repos
[12:45] <froud> lord knows which one
[12:45] <froud> working at the fringes changes our focus
[12:45] <froud> away from ubuntu-doc
[12:45] <trickie> so could we say our immediate concerns are FAQ, ADMIN, USER and LearnLinux?
[12:46] <enrico> FAQ I'd like to coordinate with Chua before doing stuff
[12:46] <trickie> not necessarily in that order
[12:46] <froud> I go +1 on the list in http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamProjects
[12:46] <froud> and if people want LearnLinux I will add it
[12:46] <enrico> Peple, I can't make it
[12:47] <trickie> yes
[12:47] <enrico> It's been the 5th time I deleted garbage from the input line
[12:47] <trickie> +1` me too
[12:47] <froud> anyone else agree
[12:47] <jeffsch> it is too sunny and warm here: I must go outside
[12:47] <froud> enrico: go sleep
[12:47] <enrico> garbage that came in because I was typing half-asleep, or just fell asleep before taking one finger off a key
[12:48] <enrico> i'll pick up the logs tomorrow and make the minuites
[12:48] <froud> ok
[12:48] <trickie> ok... well lets call it quits for now
[12:48] <froud> Burgundavia: r u +1
[12:48] <froud> jeffsch: and you
[12:48] <froud> Liz: and you
[12:48] <jeffsch> +1
[12:49] <enrico> I'd say thank you everyoen for attending, if you want to go on, I'll make the minutes of what I'll find in the logs
[12:49] <froud> Ok thanks enrico 
[12:49] <ogra> enrico: sleep well
[12:49] <sm> hi all - can I ask one other thing, what's the preferred new naming scheme for the icon files in the wiki ? any constraints on those names which must be honoured ?
[12:49] <trickie> enrico, sllep well!
[12:49] <enrico> it's been a really good meeting
[12:49] <trickie> sleep
[12:49] <Mithrandir> I think somebody owes me beer.
[12:49] <Liz> nite enrico
[12:49] <Mithrandir> I've found and fixed the yelp bug.
[12:50] <trickie> Mithrandir, awesome!
[12:50] <ogra> Mithrandir: youre the master 
[12:50] <drasko> enrico, good nigh
[12:50] <enrico> do please get back to sm about the naming scheme for icons
[12:50] <Burgundavia> yep
[12:50] <Liz> =1
[12:50] <enrico> he made images work in Moin! 
[12:50] <Liz> +1
[12:51] <enrico> now he just needs to know how to name them
[12:51] <Mithrandir> change /usr/share/xml/gnome/xslt/docbook/html/db2html-xref.xsl ; <xsl:apply-templates select="key('idkey', $endterm)" /> to <xsl:value-of select="key('idkey', $endterm)" />
[12:51] <enrico> People, good night!
[12:51] <sm> simplest think is IconBookmarksClosed -> BookmarksClosed.png, I'll do that then
[12:51] <Mithrandir> did I tell you I don't like XSLT? (:
[12:51] <jeffsch> good night enrico
[12:51] <froud> Mithrandir: did you patch it
[12:51] <Mithrandir> if somebody can verify that it DTRT for them, I'd appreciate it.
[12:52] <Mithrandir> froud: it seems to do the right thing for me, but I'd like verification before uploading a fix
[12:52] <froud> ok
[12:52] <trickie> Mithrandir, im not on my hoary box... sorry
[12:53] <Mithrandir> froud: can you make the change and verify that it works for you?
[12:53] <Mithrandir> Burgundavia: or you?
[12:53] <froud> yep hang ten
[12:53] <trickie> well ladies and gentlemen, unless someone wants to talk more doc with me, i must bid a good day/night
[12:53] <YokoZar> wait
[12:53] <YokoZar> I just have something
[12:53] <YokoZar> Ok, I'm writing a scrollkeeper OMF file to put the Wine documentation in a standard place so it's viewable from the help menu.  The trouble is I'm having trouble figuring out what category to place it in from the list at ( /usr/share/scrollkeeper/Templates/C/scrollkeeper_cl.xml ) - is it possible to add an entry to that list, or is there one I should pick from?
[12:54] <YokoZar> Since I heard there's a doc meeting here...perhaps a doc team member can point me in the right direction?
[12:55] <trickie> YokoZar, Sorry i have never seen or contemplated an OMF file in my life. think enrico (or Sean?) has been doing that for us
[12:56] <YokoZar> Well, how about this question then: when I go to the help menu and click applications, where should the Wine documentation show up?
[12:57] <YokoZar> (this is what I'm configuring in the OMF file, I think)
[12:57] <trickie> i am not sure, but i would have thought it would have been in system or something and not applications?
[12:58] <trickie> YokoZar, really though, i have no idea
[12:58] <YokoZar> Hmm, ok.  I'll just put it alongside the Evolution User guide and deal with it later when we have a better idea about how the Wine interface will look to the user
[12:58] <froud> Mithrandir: I can confirm that it works
[12:59] <Mithrandir> froud: rock!
[01:00] <froud> Mithrandir: thanks a million
[01:00] <Mithrandir> can somebody who has a gnome bugzilla account submit http://err.no/patches/yelp_handle_endterm_db2html-xref.xsl.diff as a patch for it?
[01:00] <froud> ok
[01:00] <Mithrandir> it's so much easier to give people a patch than to say "please change foo in bar"
[01:00] <Mithrandir> ogra: trying to drown me? :)
[01:00] <ogra> hehe
[01:01] <ogra> Mithrandir: just put it in the storage ;)
[01:01] <Mithrandir> my fridge is actually still quite full after all the beer I brought home after FOSDEM.
[01:01] <mdke> is the doc meeting still active?
[01:01] <Mithrandir> but, it's 0100 here now, so I'm off to bed.
[01:01] <Liz> nite Mithrandir
[01:01] <Liz> im gonna go enjoy the sunshine here
[01:02] <mdke> guess not huh
[01:02] <trickie> mdke, just sorta stopped being a meeting
[01:02] <trickie> but i think people are around
[01:02] <mdke> bah
[01:02] <mdke> i suck
[01:03] <mdke> someone will make up minutes i guess?
[01:03] <trickie> mdke, yep
[01:03] <mdke> :)
[01:03] <trickie> :)
[01:03] <trickie> well i am outta here, see ya all!
[01:06] <froud> Mithrandir:  done http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=170074
[01:06] <froud> well team good noght
[01:06] <froud> night
[01:06] <mdke> night mate