| marcin_ant | ogra: btw what about this http://home.tiscali.cz:8080/~cz210552/aptrsync.html ? | 12:10 |
|---|---|---|
| mvo | marcin_ant: for this particular problem (package list updates), please see http://bugs.debian.org/128818 | 12:14 |
| === mirak [~mirak@AAubervilliers-152-1-32-243.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| medwards_ | mdz: device-mapper documentation is, er, sketchy. :( | 12:19 |
| mdz | medwards_: yeah. I know a few people who are helpful though | 12:20 |
| medwards_ | I RTFS to understand the "p" in snapshot create. | 12:20 |
| mdz | medwards_: kevin corry of the EVMS project has answered many questions for me | 12:20 |
| medwards_ | argh, and argh some more. I zeroed the entire /dev/sda1, and I still get "Invalid/corrupt snapshot". | 12:23 |
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| mirak | if I do a dd /dev/hda of a full 40G hard drive on a 120G hard drive, will I be able to resize the latest partition, or will the system believe it's still a 40G hard drive ? | 12:28 |
| lifeless | you'll be able to resize it | 12:28 |
| lifeless | but you'd be better off copying the partition with parted anyway | 12:29 |
| === buga is now known as buga-away | ||
| medwards_ | I swear to Murgatroyd, I had this working! | 12:49 |
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| Amaranth | seb128: are you sure gnome-menus will take an entry from ~/.locals/share/applications and show it over an entry with the same name from /usr/share/applications ? | 12:52 |
| seb128 | put a desktop file here and run the pyxdg example, you'll see | 12:53 |
| Amaranth | I've got everything else working perfectly but you still have to run as root to edit root entries because it shows the root one over the user one in the menus | 12:53 |
| seb128 | hum | 12:53 |
| Amaranth | i have testingthis.desktop in both places with a different Comment line and both my app (using python-xdg) and the gnome menus themselves show the root one | 12:53 |
| seb128 | oh, you have the same in both | 12:54 |
| Amaranth | yeah, i thought you said that would work | 12:54 |
| Amaranth | otherwise i'll still need root to edit root entries | 12:54 |
| seb128 | that does if you handle it right | 12:54 |
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| seb128 | no | 12:55 |
| seb128 | read the spec | 12:55 |
| seb128 | a sec | 12:55 |
| Amaranth | err | 12:56 |
| Amaranth | what part of the spec tells how to make this work? | 12:56 |
| seb128 | http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/menu-spec-0.9.html | 12:56 |
| seb128 | D. Implementation notes | 12:56 |
| seb128 | Menu editing | 12:56 |
| seb128 | " To implement menu editing, the intent is that a per-user file is created. The per-user file should specify a <MergeFile> with the system wide file, so that system changes are inherited. When the user deletes a menu item, you add <Exclude><Filename>foo.desktop</Filename></Exclude>. If the user adds a menu item, you use <Include><Filename>foo.desktop</Filename></Include>" | 12:56 |
| seb128 | " If the user moves a folder, you might try to use <Move> elements to represent that, but it's tricky. (Move A/B/C to D/E/F, then move D/E to D/G, note that D/E/F still contains A/B/C while only the original D/E was moved to D/G.) In order to move a folder, you have to "fix up" all moves that move things into the folder being moved to instead move things into the folder's new location." | 12:56 |
| seb128 | 12:57 | |
| seb128 | that | 12:57 |
| Amaranth | oh, i need to create user versions applications files? | 12:57 |
| seb128 | right | 12:58 |
| Amaranth | hrm | 12:58 |
| seb128 | you need to have the .menu files for your user | 12:58 |
| seb128 | that merge the system one | 12:58 |
| seb128 | and to use these ones | 12:58 |
| seb128 | so you can do the changes | 12:58 |
| Amaranth | now to figure out how to generate .menu files... | 01:00 |
| === zenwhen [zenwhen@h-67-102-63-103.phlapafg.covad.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| Amaranth | oh, Menu.addDeskEntry() might be it | 01:02 |
| seb128 | nice | 01:04 |
| seb128 | BTW thanks for the work on the menu editor, some users will be happy | 01:04 |
| Amaranth | yeah, i've gotten some nice replies on the ubuntu forums | 01:05 |
| seb128 | some beeing an inderterminate number, but that's a frequent request on the mailing lists | 01:05 |
| thom | mdz: yo | 01:05 |
| lamont_r | mdz: defoma cluster uploaded | 01:08 |
| lamont_r | seb128: we have a menu editor!!!!!????!!? woo woo!!! | 01:09 |
| seb128 | lamont_r: somebody is working on a menu editor rather | 01:09 |
| lamont_r | ah, ok | 01:09 |
| === lamont_r slumps back down in his seat, determined to be patient. | ||
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| === Amaranth stabs the menu spec | ||
| Amaranth | lamont_r: the old version works, it just doesn't quite follow the spec | 01:18 |
| Amaranth | well, it does enough to work, just not enough to allow non-root editting of root entries | 01:19 |
| Amaranth | i think Menu.addDeskEntry() is what i need to work with in python-xdg but when i give it my entry it tries to access entry.Name which doesn't exist | 01:20 |
| Mitario | good night everyone | 01:21 |
| === seb128 [~seb128@ANancy-151-1-7-141.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| thom | g'night folks | 01:22 |
| Amaranth | night | 01:22 |
| ogra | night thom | 01:22 |
| medwards_ | blood. y. hell. | 01:29 |
| medwards_ | mdz: zeroing it worked. | 01:29 |
| medwards_ | mdz: left a gratuitous mkfs in between zeroing and dmsetup. | 01:30 |
| doko | good night or good morning, as you like it ;) | 01:33 |
| medwards_ | Is there a boot parameter I can use to modprobe ext3 before casper runs? | 01:33 |
| ogra | night doko | 01:33 |
| mvo | night doko | 01:33 |
| === mvo -> bed too (was up way too long) | ||
| dholbach | good night mvo | 01:34 |
| ogra | night mvo | 01:34 |
| mvo | ciao dholbach, ogra | 01:35 |
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| medwards_ | oh, boo. "Failed to initialize HAL". | 01:40 |
| medwards_ | "hald timed out on ep0in"??? | 01:42 |
| medwards_ | hmm, looks like I need to blacklist the USB stick from hotplug when casper's got hold of it. | 01:44 |
| dholbach | i'm off to bed... good night to you all | 01:50 |
| medwards_ | thom: looks like you maintain hotplug for ubuntu; any thoughts on how to blacklist just the first USB stick from hotplug? | 01:52 |
| medwards_ | thom: sorry, looks like a hal problem, not hotplug. | 01:59 |
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| tsume | to explain why the newer nvidia module isn't in the archive? | 02:08 |
| tsume | *can anyone explain | 02:08 |
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| Rocha | Good evening | 02:08 |
| === rvalles [~lodoss@80-29-3-129.adsl.nuria.telefonica-data.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| rvalles | hi | 02:08 |
| Rocha | Will mono 1.1.4 be available for hoary? | 02:09 |
| zul | tsume: because we are close to release we are concentrating on stabilization | 02:09 |
| rvalles | I need to know how the gcc wrapper works in ubuntu | 02:09 |
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| tsume | zul: after that will there be normal updates again? | 02:09 |
| rvalles | tried to find documentation on it, but no luck | 02:09 |
| zul | tsume: should be | 02:09 |
| rvalles | the thing is, I have gcc-3.4 installed | 02:09 |
| tsume | zul: I like current software, I don't like using outdated "crap" | 02:09 |
| rvalles | root@LeChuckK7:/ # kk | 02:09 |
| rvalles | bash: kk: command not found | 02:09 |
| rvalles | root@LeChuckK7:/ # gcc | 02:09 |
| rvalles | bash: /usr/bin/gcc: No existe el fichero o el directorio | 02:10 |
| medwards_ | OK, it's fine as long as I wait until the isolinux prompt to insert the USB stick. | 02:10 |
| tsume | zul: thanks to the near up-to-date kernel, I was able to use my intel 2200BG card in my laptop | 02:10 |
| tsume | ipw2200 module :) | 02:10 |
| rvalles | notice the difference | 02:10 |
| Amaranth | Rocha: mono 1.1.x is unstable, it'll become 1.2 when it's ready for use | 02:10 |
| rvalles | so a wrapper is definitivelly there for gcc | 02:10 |
| rvalles | but... where is it? | 02:10 |
| Rocha | Amaranth, on the website they say that people should use 1.1.4 instead of 1.0.6 | 02:11 |
| Amaranth | rvalles: gcc is a symlink | 02:11 |
| Amaranth | Rocha: That's odd... | 02:11 |
| Rocha | Amaranth, in the mono channel too | 02:11 |
| Rocha | (in gimpnet) | 02:11 |
| rvalles | Amaranth: where is that symlink? | 02:11 |
| Amaranth | /usr/bin/gcc | 02:12 |
| rvalles | Amaranth: /usr/bin/gcc doesn't exist. | 02:12 |
| zul | rvalles: that is an #ubuntu question | 02:12 |
| rvalles | Amaranth: yet, as you can see, the error I get by typing random crap (kk) is different | 02:12 |
| rvalles | Amaranth: than the one I get typing "gcc" | 02:12 |
| Amaranth | rvalles: have you installed the build-essential package? | 02:12 |
| rvalles | Amaranth: yes. | 02:12 |
| Rocha | do you use any graphical cvs tool to manage your files? | 02:12 |
| rvalles | Amaranth: I removed gcc-3.3 to try~ to force gcc to be gcc-3.4, tho | 02:12 |
| rvalles | Amaranth: also reinstalled gcc-3.4, no luck | 02:13 |
| Amaranth | *facepalm* | 02:13 |
| rvalles | zul: they pointed me here. | 02:13 |
| Amaranth | rvalles: move this to #ubuntu | 02:13 |
| Amaranth | it's definately not appropriate #ubuntu-devel discussion | 02:13 |
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| medwards_ | mdz: snapshot on USB stick works. What shall I do with the setup script? | 02:17 |
| mdz | medwards_: nice, how many pieces is it in? | 02:17 |
| mdz | and where do they fit? | 02:18 |
| medwards_ | All you have to do is run the script (hacked from 10snapshot) when booted from livecd/ramdisk and with USB stick inserted but not mounted. | 02:19 |
| medwards_ | Then reboot, and enter "live casper-udeb/snapshot/cow-device=/dev/sda1" at the isolinux prompt. | 02:20 |
| medwards_ | The freedesktop hal choked when my BIOS saw the stick during boot, so I just wait until the isolinux prompt to insert it. | 02:20 |
| medwards_ | that's all there is to it. | 02:21 |
| medwards_ | The script zeroes the first 10K of the partition, creates cow and snapshot devices, and runs e2fsck. The tune2fs -j line is commented out pending a way to modprobe ext3 early enough. | 02:23 |
| medwards_ | mdz: got that? | 02:24 |
| mdz | medwards_: reading now | 02:26 |
| mdz | 05load-modules loads ext2; it could as easy load ext3 | 02:27 |
| tsume | questoin, are the development branches usually stable to use for a BSDer? | 02:27 |
| mdz | tsume: that's a subjective question; you should be able to get plenty of opinions in #ubuntu about it | 02:28 |
| mdz | medwards_: what was the root of the problem with hal/ | 02:28 |
| mdz | ? | 02:28 |
| tsume | mdz: well does at least 75% work most of the time? | 02:28 |
| tsume | mdz: compared to debian -unstable | 02:28 |
| medwards_ | BIOS probably does stupid things to enable USB mass storage boot. | 02:28 |
| tsume | mdz: I need up to date software, not outdated software | 02:28 |
| mdz | prior to freeze, we track Debian unstable closely | 02:28 |
| tsume | mdz: but are there conflicts which debian -unstable have? | 02:29 |
| mdz | medwards_: oh, you're booting from the stick and then also using it for COW? | 02:29 |
| medwards_ | tsume: I've had very good experiences with debian unstable, but YMMV. | 02:29 |
| tsume | i.e. seems to take forever to be able to even download the software without missing deps with -unstable debian | 02:29 |
| medwards_ | mdz: nope, but if it's inserted, the BIOS tries to give me the option. | 02:29 |
| tsume | YMMV? | 02:29 |
| mdz | tsume: our focus is on getting a high-quality release out every 6 months. this means we don't stay on the bleeding edge all the time, certainly not toward the end of our release cycle | 02:30 |
| medwards_ | tsume: your mileage may vary. | 02:30 |
| tsume | there aren't any assholes like cafuego in the ubuntu community are there? | 02:33 |
| zul | who? | 02:33 |
| ogra | what ? | 02:33 |
| tsume | zul: cafuego of #debian | 02:33 |
| tsume | just a very rude person who doesn't like helping anyone | 02:33 |
| zul | ah | 02:34 |
| tsume | he suffers from big penis syndrome ;) | 02:34 |
| medwards_ | and for a stretch goal, how about AES encrypting the partition underneath the linear dm device, and asking the passphrase during 10snapshot. :) | 02:34 |
| medwards_ | mdz: given appropriate access, I would be happy to put this stuff up on the wiki. | 02:35 |
| ogra | tsume, ubuntu is known for its good helpful community that even tends to avoid such verbalisms like asshole... | 02:35 |
| tsume | ogra: just what I wanted to hear :) | 02:35 |
| mdz | medwards_: all you need for the wiki is to create an account; it's all open | 02:36 |
| ogra | i.e. we have a code of conduct that forces you to be helpful and nice ;) | 02:36 |
| tsume | ogra: debian lacks 'code of conduct' | 02:36 |
| tsume | ogra: I guess its one of the major pros to go for in a project :) | 02:37 |
| ogra | but has a "social contract" | 02:37 |
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| ogra | yep | 02:37 |
| tsume | there is a project for graphical linux boot, does anhyone know what it is? | 02:38 |
| tsume | for a picture during kernel load, etc | 02:38 |
| ogra | tsume, but we would also welcomecafuego if he would sign the CoC ;) | 02:38 |
| ogra | usplash | 02:39 |
| tsume | ogra: it would be difficult for people like cafuego to agree/act to such a contract | 02:39 |
| tsume | orusplash? | 02:39 |
| tsume | ogra: hmm I thought it was called bootsplash or something. | 02:39 |
| tsume | *something else. | 02:39 |
| lamont_r | bootsplash is something else | 02:40 |
| lamont_r | that's a heavy kernel mod, etc. | 02:40 |
| ogra | tsume, but if he would, and behave accordingly, he could even join :) | 02:40 |
| lamont_r | usplash is ubuntu's all-user-space splash during boot | 02:40 |
| lamont_r | that isn't in hoary | 02:40 |
| tsume | ogra: that type of acceptance and behavior would be exciting to see. | 02:40 |
| ogra | lamont_r, i think we'll have some proof of concept stuff in universe shortly after release, i talked to sladen at FOSDEM | 02:41 |
| lamont_r | ogra: right | 02:41 |
| ogra | tsume, :) | 02:41 |
| zul | okies usb storage device list has been updated | 02:42 |
| ogra | tsume, ubuntu is always exciting ;) | 02:42 |
| zul | oh you are around lamont_r | 02:44 |
| lamont_r | doh. discovered.! | 02:45 |
| zul | bwahaha | 02:46 |
| tsume | are there any plans in getting bootsplash in the kernel? | 02:47 |
| zul | no | 02:47 |
| tsume | zul: any reason not to? | 02:47 |
| zul | yes we are looking at usplash | 02:47 |
| tsume | zul: can usplash show a progress bar? | 02:48 |
| ogra | tsume, we have something better: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/USplash | 02:48 |
| medwards_ | mdz: under IdeaPool, or maybe BreezyGoalsThatTurnedOutToBeLowHangingFruit? | 02:48 |
| srbaker | has anyone here played with apple's rendezvous on ubuntu? | 02:48 |
| srbaker | or any linux-based system, for that matter | 02:49 |
| zenwhen | Does Canonical support Kubuntu finaially? | 02:49 |
| ogra | tsume, usplash will support mng, you can animate what you want with it | 02:49 |
| zenwhen | financially* | 02:49 |
| tsume | almost firgor | 02:51 |
| tsume | oops | 02:51 |
| tsume | almost forgot, I've a small grub problem | 02:51 |
| tsume | it says GRUB at boot, so I had to install lilo | 02:51 |
| tsume | how can I load the CD and install grub the right way? | 02:51 |
| ogra | ? | 02:51 |
| tsume | GRUB | 02:51 |
| tsume | thats it | 02:51 |
| tsume | it freezes and the laptop doesn't boot. | 02:52 |
| mdz | medwards_: it's on UbuntuDownUnderBofs right now, but I haven't fleshed it out yet (and probably won't do so in that wiki) | 02:52 |
| srbaker | ogra, where do i find info on usplash? | 02:53 |
| ogra | http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/USplash | 02:53 |
| srbaker | thanks | 02:55 |
| medwards_ | mdz: will also be nice for poor-man's remastering, since an idle snapshot is a perfectly good cloop and can be rolled right up into a new ISO. | 02:55 |
| zul | heh i was able to reproduce those ata_piix problems on array 6 | 03:27 |
| Amaranth | i give up, python-xdg hates me | 03:31 |
| Amaranth | people can just edit menu entries by hand :/ | 03:32 |
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| bluefoxicy | could somebody get me the source files for the users and groups applet? I'm sure there's a mirror somewhere online, or I can apt-source it? | 03:33 |
| medwards_ | mdz: first draft at https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LiveCDPersistence | 03:34 |
| medwards_ | mdz: I know diddly about Plone markup, maybe someone could touch it up. | 03:34 |
| mdz | medwards_: thanks, will look at it soon | 03:35 |
| mdz | sometimes helpful souls trawl the wiki and fix up the markup ;-) | 03:35 |
| medwards_ | mdz: I'll try to get around to the AES cryptoloop support once I've succeeded with a remastering cycle. | 03:36 |
| medwards_ | mdz: is casper frozen, or can at least the ext3 modprobe go in? | 03:37 |
| Amaranth | arg, seb left | 03:38 |
| Amaranth | does anyone know anything about python-xdg? | 03:38 |
| Amaranth | beyond listing menu entries and saving .desktop files themselves it looks entirely worthless | 03:39 |
| jdub | mdz: permission to upload bugfix updates of libvorbis/libtheora that we probably should've had in warty (they're that old)? | 03:40 |
| medwards_ | mdz: I don't really see any reason why there should be livecds without at least AES persistent homedir support anymore. | 03:40 |
| medwards_ | mdz: thanks for casper, it's excellent. | 03:40 |
| jdub | mdz: i've tested them locally, no problems (and FC3 had them). | 03:40 |
| crimsun | Amaranth: and validation, which is just as important? | 03:40 |
| Amaranth | meh, i need to figure out how to merge user menus with the main ones | 03:41 |
| Amaranth | i would have thought they'd have a nice catchall setup for this | 03:41 |
| === Amaranth facepalms | ||
| Amaranth | thank you redhat for the example file :) | 03:46 |
| Amaranth | i give up | 03:55 |
| Amaranth | this was intentionally made hard | 03:55 |
| infinity | mdz : regarding #7857, how do I best handle that, since I can't build libapache-mod-php4 without a build-dep on apache-dev (from universe), but the php4 source package is main (with binaries split across main/universe) | 03:56 |
| lamont | mdz about? | 04:13 |
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| lamont | any amd64 owners around? | 04:27 |
| === lamont needs someone to try a fix for him | ||
| === mjg59 boggles gently at http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/system/pnppwr/wmi/wmi-acpi.mspx | ||
| zul | night folks | 04:40 |
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| mdz | jdub: if they're the new upstreams, then no, I'd rather not | 04:42 |
| mdz | medwards_: I'm not touching casper at the moment except for bugfixes, but feel free to keep your changes in an arch branch for now | 04:42 |
| mdz | medwards_: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mdz/archives/matt.zimmerman@canonical.com--2004/ | 04:43 |
| mdz | infinity: either we split the source, or we don't support apache 1.3 | 04:44 |
| infinity | mdz : Yeah, I just got advice from daniels to duplicate the source package, build all the main stuff from the main source, and the universe stuff from the universe source. Ick. | 04:45 |
| infinity | mdz : But it seems resonably sane, except for the maintaining of two branches. | 04:45 |
| mdz | lamont: what do you need? | 04:45 |
| fgx | do you think ubuntu will have its own boot/install floppy in the future?is it a goal? | 04:47 |
| lamont | mdz: how does the fix suggested in #297543 sound? | 04:48 |
| mdz | lamont: you would know better than i would; I assumed it was at 18 for a reason | 04:48 |
| lamont | was 18 when I inherited it. | 04:50 |
| lamont | module-tools-init is all that is at 20... | 04:50 |
| lamont | I'll poke Md tomorrow and see what he thinks | 04:50 |
| lamont | pb is that I lack an amd64 box to test on. | 04:51 |
| jdub | mdz: they're well tested elsewhere, and will help with streaming stuff | 04:52 |
| mjg59 | Somebody really needs to write a driver for that WMI stuff | 04:57 |
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| jdub | http://distrowatch.com/stats.php?section=popularity | 05:01 |
| schweeb | jdub: NICE | 05:03 |
| jdub | pretty impressive | 05:03 |
| mjg59 | That's quite astoundingly good | 05:08 |
| mjg59 | What's the highest number they've managed before? | 05:08 |
| jdub | hrm | 05:12 |
| jdub | the historical high water mark forever? | 05:12 |
| jdub | dunno | 05:12 |
| jdub | might ask ladislav | 05:12 |
| === jdub mails | ||
| infinity | mdz : So, do I have your okay to do that (re: duplicate main/universe source packages). Does the archive deal with that sanely, or do I need to rename one to php4-universe or something? | 05:16 |
| elmo | uh | 05:22 |
| elmo | of course you can't duplicate the source with the same name | 05:22 |
| elmo | main/universe are just components; you wouldn't try and put a package in main _and_ non-free in Debian, right? same deal | 05:23 |
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| infinity | elmo : Check. Wasn't sure how they were handled on the backend, as components of a dist, or as seperate dists, happening to release simultaneously. | 05:27 |
| infinity | elmo : So, to duplicate the source, I need a php4-universe source package, then. Can do. (Did I say "ick" yet?) | 05:28 |
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| srbaker | hrm | 05:31 |
| srbaker | for some reason knoppix makes my sound work every time, and it wont' work in ubuntu :( i think it has omething to do with OSS | 05:31 |
| schweeb | ubuntu uses ALSA... I believe knoppix does now too | 05:32 |
| elmo | infinity: well - supporting apache 1.3 for 18 months would be even more icky | 05:34 |
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| sladen | medwards_: how much extra work would it be to have a loopback file on the USB/whatever device as the persisent home. This strikes me that it'd work across USB/vfat/windows partitions much better | 06:07 |
| sladen | medwards_: my (limited) knowledge of DM tells me it should be possible to take the existing memory-backed snapshot and write that to device/file retrospectively. Avoiding the need to reboot and pass in a cow device | 06:09 |
| infinity | Hrm. If initscripts (which is priority: required) depends on lsb-base, is it really sane to change every package which provides an init script to ALSO depend on lsb-base? | 06:14 |
| elmo | infinity: partial upgrades? | 06:14 |
| infinity | From pre-warty? | 06:15 |
| elmo | or Debian? | 06:15 |
| infinity | initscripts has depended on lsb-base since before warty released. | 06:15 |
| infinity | Meh. | 06:16 |
| infinity | Fair nuff. | 06:16 |
| === infinity goes to add a bunch of deps. | ||
| lamont | mdz: what severity do you want the hoary-test/ia64 build failures at? normal? or critical? | 06:33 |
| elmo | infinity: don't take that as authoritative, I'm just guessing | 06:34 |
| infinity | elmo : Well, it makes sense. I just wish it didn't. ;) | 06:36 |
| === `anthony [~anthony@220-253-31-237.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
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| bob2 | I like how scrollkeeper hangs on install if you don't have network access | 08:24 |
| === froud [~froud@ndn-165-131-237.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| froud | Mitario: ping | 08:49 |
| === daniels [~daniels@202-44-183-17.nexnet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| Mithrandir | elmo: could you please sync db3? | 09:21 |
| elmo | done | 09:23 |
| Mithrandir | thanks a lot | 09:25 |
| tritium | elmo, I sent requests to keyring and upload last Sunday. Should I be all set? | 09:29 |
| === jvw_ [jeroen@220pc220.sshunet.nl] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
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| dholbach | goood morning! | 09:41 |
| lunitik | Please can *someone* kick 'you' in #ubuntu? | 09:42 |
| dholbach | daniels: thanks for dbus-mono - i'll take care of the uploads once it's in the archive | 09:42 |
| === HiddenWolf [~hidden@136.54.dynamic.phpg.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
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| daniels | dholbach: thanks a lot mate | 10:16 |
| daniels | dholbach: afaict, it's just tomboy and muine that needed uploading | 10:17 |
| dholbach | daniels: my pleasure... have still to do quite a lot of uploads, and i already prepared them :-) | 10:17 |
| === doko [~doko___@dsl-084-059-052-029.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| daniels | dholbach: the c abi hasn't been touched, but because of the version bump, all the mono apps need to be rebuilt; apt-cache rdepends only showed those two | 10:17 |
| daniels | dholbach: awesome | 10:17 |
| daniels | dholbach: then do we get awesome beagle love? :) | 10:17 |
| dholbach | daniels: to be honest, i'm just relying on your and tseng's word | 10:17 |
| dholbach | i'm on amd64 :-) | 10:18 |
| daniels | dholbach: afaict, 'it works' | 10:18 |
| daniels | yeah, me too | 10:18 |
| daniels | but I have an i386 laptop | 10:18 |
| dholbach | ah... well i haven't :-) | 10:18 |
| daniels | i can't imagine ever going back to an i386 desktop | 10:18 |
| dholbach | no... it's only 3 months now, but i wouldnt switch back again | 10:18 |
| dholbach | even with those amd64isms on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UniverseUnmetDeps :-) | 10:19 |
| elmo | daniels: you saw the REJECT right? | 10:19 |
| daniels | elmo: for dbus in debian? yeah, what's up with that? | 10:19 |
| daniels | i saw it ... with no attached note | 10:20 |
| elmo | err, no, in ubuntu | 10:20 |
| daniels | elmo: er, no | 10:20 |
| daniels | haven't checked my mail since I uploaded | 10:20 |
| daniels | let me guess: targeted at unstable? | 10:20 |
| elmo | REJECT | 10:20 |
| elmo | Rejected: dbus_0.23.4-0ubuntu1.dsc refers to dbus_0.23.4.orig.tar.gz, but I can't find it in the queue or in the pool. | 10:20 |
| daniels | ah, bong | 10:20 |
| daniels | thanks | 10:20 |
| daniels | i actually was careful to do -sa the first time around | 10:21 |
| daniels | then, right before I uploaded, I did a tiny tweak, and forgot -sa | 10:21 |
| daniels | cheers | 10:21 |
| elmo | whee | 10:28 |
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| elmo | hoary-test's gone from 60% to 90% in like half an hour :> | 10:28 |
| === mvo [~egon@ip181.135.1511I-CUD12K-01.ish.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| === Amaranth [~travis@amaranth.user] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| === Mitario wakes up | ||
| Mitario | hi everyone | 11:11 |
| dholbach | hey Mitario | 11:11 |
| === azeem_ [~mbanck@ppp-62-245-163-216.mnet-online.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| mvo | hey Mitario | 11:23 |
| === Goshawk [~Goshawk@host239-113.pool8249.interbusiness.it] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| dholbach | hey mvo | 11:24 |
| mvo | hey dholbach | 11:25 |
| tritium | lamont, ping | 11:27 |
| Mitario | mvo, http://cvs.gnome.org/viewcvs/update-manager/ :-) | 11:27 |
| Amaranth | i now know more about the fd.o menu spec then i ever wished to | 11:28 |
| Amaranth | on the plus side, my menu editor works without running as root now :) | 11:29 |
| Mitario | nice one :-) | 11:29 |
| dholbach | Amaranth: cool | 11:31 |
| Mitario | mvo, ping :-) | 11:33 |
| Amaranth | hmm, it doesn't actually change the menu and if i reload the editor the change is reverted.... | 11:35 |
| mvo | Mitario: checking just now :) | 11:38 |
| === niran [~niran@lucianus.Stanford.EDU] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| mvo | Mitario: ahhh nice :) | 11:38 |
| === Amaranth [~travis@amaranth.user] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| mvo | Mitario: let's see if I can access it with my account :) | 11:38 |
| Mitario | mvo, indeed :-) | 11:38 |
| Mitario | mvo, i'll notify the translaters & contribers | 11:38 |
| Amaranth | this is the buggiest thing i've ever seen | 11:38 |
| Amaranth | sometimes it uses the .menu file, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes it uses part of it | 11:38 |
| froud | Mitario: must I now work on gnome cvs for the docs? | 11:39 |
| Amaranth | all i've managed to do consistently is blank my applications menu | 11:39 |
| Amaranth | where is seb when you need him? | 11:39 |
| Mitario | froud, yes, if you wish, do you have a cvs account there? | 11:39 |
| mvo | Mitario: updating ... :) | 11:39 |
| froud | Mithrandir: no | 11:39 |
| Mitario | mvo, nice :) | 11:40 |
| froud | sorry Mitario no | 11:40 |
| Mitario | froud, ok, no problem, if you wish i can request one for you | 11:40 |
| froud | Mitario: I was about to update to add the "Add CD" button and once you have the Help Button Enable redo the captures | 11:41 |
| froud | Mitario: It's a good idea | 11:41 |
| mvo | Mitario: hm, we need to add a help button :) | 11:41 |
| froud | mvo: snap | 11:42 |
| === lupusBE [~lupus@dD577295F.access.telenet.be] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| Mitario | mvo, heh umm, i think we have to redo the UI a bit then :-) | 11:42 |
| Mitario | mvo, otherwise it'll look cluttered :( | 11:42 |
| === tritium [~rimbert@12-202-90-180.client.insightBB.com] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Leaving"] | ||
| mvo | Mitario: *nod* | 11:43 |
| Mitario | froud, anyways, wait until you commit, or checkout the source from anonymous cvs.gnome.org and send us a patch | 11:43 |
| froud | Mitario: *nod* | 11:43 |
| Mitario | it'll only be for a short time | 11:43 |
| froud | Mitario: OK | 11:43 |
| Mitario | now, sorting my e-mail first.. | 11:44 |
| Mitario | will get to the stuff in a bit | 11:44 |
| froud | Mitario: problem is to do that once screen changes are finished. no point documenting if the interface is changing | 11:44 |
| dholbach | daniels: seems like i'm ready to go | 11:45 |
| Mitario | froud, true | 11:46 |
| Mitario | mvo, froud maybe we can do some kind of UI freeze one week before 5.4? | 11:46 |
| Mitario | which is about today :p | 11:46 |
| froud | Mitario: Um I dont see update-manager in :pserver:anonymous@anoncvs.gnome.org:/cvs/gnome | 11:46 |
| mvo | yes :) it's really a short time now | 11:47 |
| Mitario | froud, huh.. hmm, maybe anoncvs.gnome.org is not synced yet | 11:47 |
| froud | bummer | 11:47 |
| froud | anyone know how long that takes | 11:48 |
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| Mitario | i don't know, sorry :-( | 11:50 |
| Amaranth | anoncvs.gnome.org is on mirrors, isn't it? | 11:50 |
| mvo | Mitario: I commited a "dirty" property for gnome-software-properties. it will know only ask for updating the packagelist if samething has changed in the sources.list. it would be nice if you could also give it a bit of testing :) | 11:50 |
| === m0rphx [~m0rphx@p83.129.201.210.tisdip.tiscali.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| Mitario | mvo, ok did you commit it in cvs.gnome.org? :-) | 11:51 |
| === jvw_ is now known as jvw | ||
| Mitario | i'm going to grab some food, i'll brb in 10 minutes | 11:52 |
| mvo | Mithrandir: yep | 11:53 |
| mvo | Mithrandir: ups, nick-completion error :) have fun in .dk | 11:54 |
| dholbach | daniels: uploaded muine and tomboy | 11:55 |
| mvo | dholbach: coooooollllll | 11:56 |
| dholbach | mvo: well... i didn't do much on them :-) | 11:56 |
| dholbach | mvo: tseng and daniels made sure you can tomboy around :-) | 11:57 |
| mvo | *rock* tseng and daniels | 11:57 |
| === Mitario [~michiel@sikkes.xs4all.nl] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| Mitario | i'm back | 12:06 |
| === cc [~cc@byte.fedora] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| mvo | Mitario: now I'm leaving for a bit | 12:08 |
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| torkel | froud, Mitario: at least one of the anoncvs.g.o mirrors was synced about an hour ago | 12:10 |
| Mitario | ah ok, well, update-manager has been in cvs.g.o for 6 hours now | 12:11 |
| torkel | Mitario: sometimes the mirrors are way out of sync, so I usually stick to farbror.acc.umu.se | 12:12 |
| === andred [~andre@c-9c7173d5.012-245-6c756c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| andred | Now that Ubuntu generates a whole bunch of english locales on install, Ubuntu's gdm suffers from http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=170706 . Check out the language list in gdm and you'll see the mess. | 12:16 |
| froud | torkel: thanks | 12:16 |
| === Amaranth heads for bed | ||
| === deresh [~kkunjas@d-zg10-36.vodatel.hr] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| deresh | hi | 12:32 |
| deresh | i have a question avout misdn in kernel version 2.6.10 | 12:33 |
| deresh | ANYONE?? | 12:39 |
| Treenaks | deresh: #ubuntu | 12:40 |
| deresh | i tryed there but no one knows | 12:41 |
| deresh | in kernel 2.6.8 there was a misd support | 12:41 |
| Treenaks | this is not a support channel | 12:41 |
| deresh | but when i upgraded to 2.6.10 support is missing | 12:41 |
| deresh | do i think DEVELOPERS had removed mISDN support form kernel | 12:42 |
| deresh | so i think this is a right place to ask why? | 12:42 |
| deresh | coz i dont want to manualy recompile kernel just for that | 12:43 |
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| === seb128 [~seb128@ANancy-151-1-7-141.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| dholbach | hey seb128 | 01:07 |
| seb128 | hi | 01:10 |
| jdub | is it just me, or does firefox 1.0.1 *not* leak like a sieve? | 01:10 |
| seb128 | dunno I don't use firefox :p | 01:10 |
| jdub | nen | 01:10 |
| jdub | heh | 01:10 |
| dholbach | jdub: seems to be better at my place too | 01:10 |
| seb128 | bah, everybody use that ? :p | 01:10 |
| dholbach | seb128: if epiphany didnt have the problems with at-random-jumping-focus, i'd use it | 01:11 |
| seb128 | yeah, this one is annoying | 01:11 |
| dholbach | (if you use tabs and reload pages, while working on others) | 01:11 |
| seb128 | the new galeon takles this issue, perhaps epiphany will follow :) | 01:12 |
| dholbach | i love epiphany's tweakable bookmark-bar | 01:12 |
| jdub | ah! dbus! | 01:13 |
| jdub | daniels: thanks :-) | 01:13 |
| dholbach | the MOTU crew completely fixed their first transition list :-) | 01:13 |
| jdub | seb128: you got benm's mail about g-t/nautilus patches? | 01:13 |
| jdub | dholbach: :-) | 01:14 |
| dholbach | UniverseHowlRebuildTODO will be next, right seb128? :-) | 01:14 |
| seb128 | jdub: nop | 01:14 |
| seb128 | dholbach: yep | 01:14 |
| jdub | seb128: what's your ubuntu.com address? | 01:14 |
| seb128 | seb128@ubuntu.com | 01:15 |
| === ogra wonders whats his ubuntu.com address, or dholbachs.... | ||
| dholbach | seb128: what about #7887? shall i just rebuild libgnomeuimm2.0? | 01:15 |
| ogra | how is the status there | 01:15 |
| seb128 | dholbach: feel free | 01:15 |
| seb128 | I've to go for lunch | 01:15 |
| dholbach | seb128: ok | 01:15 |
| jdub | ogra: don't you have ubuntu addresses yet? | 01:15 |
| dholbach | seb128: bon apptit | 01:15 |
| seb128 | bbl (~30 min) | 01:15 |
| ogra | jdub, afaik not | 01:16 |
| jdub | seb128: hrm, benm mailed you and cc'ed me | 01:16 |
| jdub | seb128: i'll forward again | 01:16 |
| ogra | jdub, thats why hwdb-client still says the users should send their data to hostmaster@grawert.net in the last step ;) | 01:17 |
| jdub | heh | 01:17 |
| ogra | got 35 submits so far :-D | 01:17 |
| jdub | nice! | 01:17 |
| dholbach | ogra: you should tell the people to gzip it, or do it yourself ;-) | 01:18 |
| ogra | dholbach, my server can cope with 300k attachments :) | 01:18 |
| dholbach | ogra: i thought it was only to polite to gzip it :-) | 01:19 |
| dholbach | since xml compresses so fine | 01:19 |
| ogra | and for release it will subimt to a ubuntu server so its only some weeks | 01:19 |
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| mdke | who's in charge of the mailing lists? mako? anyone else? | 01:22 |
| ogra | mdke, jdub | 01:22 |
| mdke | hi ogra | 01:23 |
| ogra | hi | 01:23 |
| mdke | are either around do you know? | 01:23 |
| dholbach | mdke: why don't you try a "jdub: ping" and see if he responds :-) | 01:24 |
| ogra | :) | 01:24 |
| === rubenv [~lambda1@83-134-131-125.Leuven.GoPlus.FastDSL.tiscali.be] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| mdke | hi dholbach, i got an email this morning confirming your worries about the wiki | 01:24 |
| dholbach | mdke: confirming worries? | 01:24 |
| ogra | mdke, you care for the new stuff there ? | 01:25 |
| mdke | dholbach, because if they are here, they will have highlights already :) | 01:25 |
| mdke | ogra, well sort of, everyone does really | 01:25 |
| ogra | mdke, would be nice to have _any_ trace of MOTU on the frontpage | 01:25 |
| mdke | ogra, stick it on. | 01:25 |
| dholbach | mdke is the moin specialist giving me 30 wiki mails in half an hour :-) | 01:25 |
| mdke | ogra, but really the ideal would be to cut down the frontpage making it simpler. maybe put a reference on the developer documents, and the "how to contribute" pages | 01:26 |
| mdke | dholbach, i'll paste you the email in PM | 01:26 |
| dholbach | ok | 01:27 |
| dholbach | mdke: yes... seems to underline IdeasForNewFrontPageStructure | 01:28 |
| mdke | also an italian user said the same thing this morning, that the wiki isn't accessible enough | 01:28 |
| dholbach | it would be nice if the frontpage itself could manage encouraging and guiding towards "getting involved" in a nice way | 01:30 |
| dholbach | so we don't loose willing contributors on the way | 01:30 |
| mdke | totally | 01:30 |
| dholbach | seb128: shouldnt libgnomeuimm2.0 then turn up in apt-cache rdepends libhowl0 ? | 01:32 |
| jdub | mdke: mail dude, mail. | 01:32 |
| mdke | ok sorry | 01:32 |
| mdke | jdub, ok done | 01:34 |
| === jon1012 [~jon@AMontsouris-151-1-47-90.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| === froud [~froud@ndn-165-131-237.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| seb128 | dholbach: why ? | 01:50 |
| dholbach | seb128: shlibs:Depends should add it, or am i wrong? | 01:51 |
| dholbach | seb128: grep howl /usr/lib/*.la is empty too | 01:51 |
| seb128 | dholbach: so what's the issue ? | 01:51 |
| seb128 | why do you want to make it depends on libhowl ? | 01:51 |
| dholbach | i don't want it to | 01:51 |
| dholbach | i thought it was | 01:51 |
| seb128 | on ia64 | 01:52 |
| seb128 | according to the build log | 01:52 |
| seb128 | are you on an ia64 ? | 01:52 |
| dholbach | oh... *reading again* | 01:52 |
| dholbach | no... unfortunately not | 01:52 |
| seb128 | so wait for lamont's reply | 01:52 |
| dholbach | sorry for the confusion | 01:52 |
| seb128 | np | 01:52 |
| === trukulo [~trukulo@62.57.69.176] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| seb128 | jdub: thanks for the fwd. I've received the mail according to the logs but plobably dropped it in the middle of the 20 spams around it | 02:03 |
| jdub | heh | 02:04 |
| seb128 | hate hate spams | 02:06 |
| === psy_ [~psy@a80-126-83-214.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| psy_ | er | 02:08 |
| psy_ | re | 02:08 |
| psy_ | :P | 02:08 |
| === zenwhen [zenwhen@h-67-102-63-103.phlapafg.covad.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| daniels | jdub: BBBBBBBEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEE | 02:13 |
| trukulo | daniels, WHERE ??? | 02:13 |
| dholbach | wb daniels :-) | 02:14 |
| psy_ | BEAGLE? | 02:14 |
| daniels | trukulo: dunno, but I want it in universe :) | 02:14 |
| trukulo | daniels, me too, i'm trying to compile it | 02:14 |
| trukulo | just now | 02:14 |
| daniels | i can compile and use it just fine on my laptop :) | 02:14 |
| trukulo | but i have problems compiling it | 02:14 |
| daniels | it just needs an eager packager | 02:14 |
| daniels | oh? | 02:14 |
| daniels | i just followed HoaryBeagleInstallGuide | 02:14 |
| trukulo | with one line: ./DBusisms.cs(67) error CS0117: `DBus.BusDriver' does not contain a definition for `NameOwnerChanged' | 02:14 |
| ogra | daniels, quick, port it to amd64 :-P | 02:15 |
| trukulo | i dont't compile any packages, just use everything from hoary | 02:15 |
| trukulo | have to work, but it doesn't | 02:15 |
| dholbach | yeah daniels: i will even say "please" :-) | 02:15 |
| daniels | ogra: it works on amd64 just fine; just needs repackaging for 1.1 | 02:15 |
| === dholbach [~daniel@td9091a37.pool.terralink.de] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Verlassend"] | ||
| daniels | trukulo: weird ... i think i was using latest cvs | 02:15 |
| === dholbach [~daniel@td9091a37.pool.terralink.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| ogra | dholbach, wb | 02:16 |
| trukulo | daniels, i'm using 0.0.7 from web | 02:16 |
| dholbach | ogra: one ctrl-w too much :-) | 02:16 |
| trukulo | not cvs, perhaps that's the problem | 02:16 |
| daniels | trukulo: i'll just update and rebuild cvs and see if it works ok or if i was on crack :) | 02:17 |
| trukulo | daniels, i'll use cvs too, then | 02:18 |
| trukulo | thanks for info ;) | 02:18 |
| trukulo | but tseng is working on package for universe | 02:18 |
| daniels | awesome | 02:21 |
| daniels | tseng: my hero | 02:21 |
| trukulo | :) | 02:21 |
| daniels | trukulo: | 02:21 |
| daniels | make[1] : Leaving directory `/home/daniels/src/beagle/beagle' | 02:21 |
| daniels | make clean all 45.76s user 4.50s system 53% cpu 1:33.16 total | 02:21 |
| daniels | daniels@catsby:~/src/beagle/beagle% | 02:21 |
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| trukulo | ok, daniel, i'm going to try it | 02:21 |
| trukulo | You should add the contents of `/usr/share/aclocal/libtool.m4' to `aclocal.m4'. | 02:26 |
| trukulo | Running aclocal ... | 02:26 |
| trukulo | aclocal: configure.in: 113: macro `AM_CXXFLAGS' not found in library | 02:26 |
| trukulo | aclocal: configure.in: 128: macro `AM_CXXFLAGS' not found in library | 02:26 |
| trukulo | failing for me :P | 02:27 |
| trukulo | i think i'll just wait for tseng package | 02:27 |
| trukulo | i'm very bad at compiling things | 02:27 |
| === mvo [~egon@ip181.135.1511I-CUD12K-01.ish.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| daniels | try this: sudo apt-get install automake- automake1.4- automake1.6- automake1.7 | 02:28 |
| trukulo | automake 1.7 not installed, could be this | 02:29 |
| trukulo | seems to work now, thanks | 02:30 |
| daniels | no worries :) | 02:33 |
| daniels | automake is ... um ... annoying like that | 02:33 |
| daniels | right now 1.7 seems to be the spot where everything works | 02:33 |
| trukulo | i'll note that as important here | 02:34 |
| trukulo | now seems to compile fine | 02:34 |
| daniels | cool :) | 02:35 |
| trukulo | System.DllNotFoundException: dbus-glib-1 in <0x00053> (wrapper managed-to-native) | 02:36 |
| trukulo | compiled, but doesn't work well :) anyway, thanks, i'll look at it now | 02:37 |
| daniels | trukulo: sudo apt-get install dbus-glib-1 :) | 02:37 |
| trukulo | it's installed | 02:37 |
| daniels | hmmmmm | 02:38 |
| trukulo | DEBUG: Initializing D-BUS | 02:40 |
| trukulo | FATAL: Could not initialize Beagle's bus connection. | 02:40 |
| trukulo | FATAL: System.DllNotFoundException: dbus-glib-1 | 02:40 |
| trukulo | strange | 02:40 |
| daniels | hmm | 02:40 |
| daniels | OH! | 02:40 |
| daniels | dbus-glib-1-dev | 02:40 |
| daniels | it just tries to open the .so | 02:40 |
| trukulo | that's it ! | 02:41 |
| === seb128_ [~seb128@ANancy-151-1-2-137.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| trukulo | daniels, thanks, installed and working | 02:46 |
| ogra | AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH | 02:49 |
| ogra | http://backports.ubuntuforums.org/backports/dists/hoary-backports-staging/main/binary-i386/ | 02:49 |
| mjg59 | daniels: Did you see my messages about i915? | 02:49 |
| trukulo | WARN: Could not open /dev/inotify | 02:52 |
| trukulo | :P too beutiful to be real | 02:52 |
| daniels | mjg59: something about broken or seomthing | 02:53 |
| daniels | trukulo: heh :) you need to boot with the 'inotify' option | 02:53 |
| ogra | trukulo, enable it with the inotify bootopton | 02:53 |
| trukulo | ah, thanks for info ! | 02:53 |
| trukulo | i love you ppl | 02:53 |
| trukulo | rebooting then | 02:53 |
| ogra | hmm, should we have told him hat it may lock up his system ? | 02:54 |
| ogra | that even | 02:55 |
| jordi | Kamion: did you have time to play with nano 1.3.5+cvs? | 02:55 |
| torkel | shouldn't beagle work without inotify? | 02:55 |
| torkel | it was just a warning... | 02:55 |
| mjg59 | daniels: By default, it's setting the video RAM too low to get working 3D. If I set the VideoRam parameter, nothing seems to change | 02:56 |
| ogra | torkel, dunno, i dont even have mono on amd64 yet | 02:56 |
| dholbach | bbl | 02:57 |
| daniels | mjg59: bong | 03:01 |
| daniels | mjg59: i've never played with real i915 hardware, but it may have a hostile bios | 03:01 |
| daniels | mjg59: can you ramp up the allocation in the bios itself? | 03:01 |
| === trukulo [~trukulo@176.red-62-57-69.user.auna.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| trukulo | f*g hell , when i use inotify, my system halts when gnome is loading | 03:03 |
| daniels | trukulo: yep :\ that's why it's not enabled by default | 03:03 |
| mjg59 | daniels: Nope | 03:03 |
| torkel | trukulo: you should not have to use inotify with beagle | 03:03 |
| daniels | trukulo: it works for some people, but breaks for other | 03:03 |
| daniels | s | 03:03 |
| daniels | mjg59: craaaack. | 03:03 |
| mjg59 | daniels: Indeed | 03:03 |
| mjg59 | What's irritating is that there's nothing in the logs about videoram | 03:04 |
| mjg59 | (other than Not enough to enable DRI | 03:04 |
| mjg59 | ) | 03:04 |
| torkel | they removed the inotify dependency i 0.0.7 | 03:04 |
| trukulo | torkel, i read about that, but beagle gives me a warn (dev/inotify not found) and haven't got any result in querys | 03:04 |
| daniels | mjg59: ugh | 03:04 |
| daniels | mjg59: it should bomb really loudly when it fails to up the amount | 03:04 |
| daniels | should -> i think it does, not should -> it would be nice if | 03:05 |
| mjg59 | Hrm. Ok, I'll try debugging later on | 03:05 |
| mjg59 | (need to go to the pub now) | 03:05 |
| trukulo | umm, no results for me in beagle, strange | 03:07 |
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| trukulo | Access to the path "/home/trukulo/.beagle/WebHistoryIndex/Index" is denied <- should be that | 03:08 |
| trukulo | ERROR: Caught exception while instantiating Files backend | 03:10 |
| trukulo | ERROR: System.Reflection.TargetInvocationException: Exception has been thrown by the target of an invocation. ---> System.IO.IOException: Lock obtain timed out: Lock@/home/trukulo/.beagle/FileSystemIndex/Locks/lucene-673d9197cc718c7fe4242669f5ede4af-write.lock | 03:10 |
| trukulo | more problems there , umm | 03:10 |
| Treenaks | uh, remove .beagle & try again? | 03:11 |
| trukulo | i did | 03:12 |
| trukulo | sorry, don't want to disturb more here, forget it | 03:13 |
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| tsume | hmmmm | 03:23 |
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| tsume | so how does the ubuntu development differ from debian in the eyes of the developers? | 03:38 |
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| tseng | beagled needs xattr? | 04:36 |
| tseng | wow | 04:36 |
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| tseng | daniels: beagle worksforme!!! | 04:40 |
| tseng | http://tseng.ath.cx/beagle.png indexing away. | 04:42 |
| tseng | hm it doesnt like our evo-sharp | 04:43 |
| daniels | tseng: awesome! | 04:47 |
| daniels | right now it's bedtime though | 04:47 |
| daniels | g'luck with it :) | 04:47 |
| tseng | thanks. | 04:47 |
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| _d4vid | ky all | 04:55 |
| lamont | seb128: there's a reason I didn't mark that one critical... | 04:57 |
| seb128 | lamont: ? | 04:58 |
| lamont | the ia64 bugs | 04:58 |
| srbaker | tseng, what's the icon to th eleft of muine? | 05:02 |
| tseng | update-manager | 05:03 |
| tseng | system - admin in your menu | 05:03 |
| srbaker | ahh | 05:03 |
| srbaker | tseng, what theme is that? | 05:04 |
| tseng | clearlooks | 05:04 |
| srbaker | cool | 05:04 |
| srbaker | nice. that's my new theme | 05:05 |
| tseng | yeah | 05:06 |
| tseng | mine is actually -bluesky or whatever | 05:07 |
| tseng | im off for the day | 05:07 |
| tseng | have beagle working w/ e-d-s now also | 05:07 |
| tseng | will hack tonight maybe | 05:07 |
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| lamont | morning mdz | 06:00 |
| mdz | morning | 06:00 |
| lamont | just tossed you a hoary-test update | 06:00 |
| lamont | mdz: btw, what severity do you want on the ia64 failures? Been using 'normal' | 06:02 |
| lamont | although I would prefer to have nothing in the archive that we can't rebuild from source... | 06:04 |
| herve | including universe? | 06:04 |
| lamont | herve: if it doesn't build from source, it shouldn't be there. The only way it got there is that _at_some_prior_point_in_time_ it did build | 06:05 |
| herve | so you mean we used to recompile debian imports when the sync was automatic? | 06:06 |
| lamont | all binaries in the archive have been built on data center buildd's. | 06:07 |
| lamont | there are no binary syncs | 06:07 |
| herve | good | 06:07 |
| lamont | have to rebuild them against our libraries, etc. | 06:07 |
| herve | but that doesn't explains how gcompris got in there :-) | 06:07 |
| lamont | so the only keys that can upload binaries to the archive are the buildd keys. | 06:07 |
| lamont | and they can't upload source. | 06:07 |
| lamont | ?? | 06:08 |
| lamont | it built | 06:08 |
| lamont | or it's not there | 06:08 |
| herve | I had to add a build dep | 06:08 |
| herve | it's problematic anyway | 06:08 |
| herve | the motu is taking care of it | 06:08 |
| lamont | http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/g/gcompris/6.1+6.3RC2-3/ | 06:09 |
| lamont | is the original build of it. | 06:09 |
| herve | yes but the newest failed | 06:09 |
| lamont | yes | 06:10 |
| lamont | and you'll notice that the latest i386 binary in the archive is the prior revision. | 06:10 |
| lamont | all nice an consistant | 06:10 |
| lamont | ent even | 06:10 |
| herve | good point | 06:11 |
| herve | I think gcompris is turning me mad :S | 06:11 |
| lamont | which is to say, gcompris is perfectly explainable. :-) | 06:11 |
| lamont | well, at least why it's in the archive is... | 06:11 |
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| thom | ogra/jdub: mind if i NMU xscreensaver to removed the APPROVED crap? | 06:27 |
| mdz | lamont: why does mplayer have an mplayer-custom binary in the archive? that shouldn't be | 06:30 |
| zenwhen | it doesnt even install | 06:31 |
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| herve | by the way, there are still packages of gnome 1.4 in the archive :-) | 06:36 |
| HiddenWolf | You're kidding me | 06:36 |
| zenwhen | thats pretty funny | 06:36 |
| herve | -dev packages mostly | 06:37 |
| herve | check libgnome-dev | 06:37 |
| herve | libgnomemm-dev | 06:37 |
| herve | libgnomeprint-dev | 06:37 |
| herve | some other but I won't list them all :-) | 06:38 |
| mdz | fabbione: ping, re: mplayer | 06:39 |
| fabbione | mdz: pong | 06:39 |
| fabbione | ( i don't have heaps of time today ) | 06:39 |
| ogra | thom, i have my patch nearly ready | 06:43 |
| mdz | fabbione: never mind, it looks like it is correct, only mplayer-custom remains in the Packages file for some reason | 06:43 |
| fabbione | mdz: ok | 06:44 |
| fabbione | there is one problem tho | 06:44 |
| mdz | elmo: mplayer-custom has not been built by mplayer for a week or so; when will it fall out of Packages? | 06:44 |
| fabbione | for one mistake the _ppc.deb did build empty once | 06:44 |
| fabbione | whilt it should have been a FTBFS | 06:44 |
| fabbione | mdz: are you sure none of the packages acutally provides it? | 06:44 |
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| ogra | thom, wanted to apply it tomorrow....but if you feel its urgent, go ahead | 06:45 |
| mdz | mplayer-386 | 1:1.0-pre6-0.3ubuntu6 | hoary/multiverse | i386 | 06:46 |
| mdz | mplayer-custom | 1:1.0-pre5-0.6ubuntu1 | hoary/multiverse | i386 | 06:46 |
| mdz | the version in the archive is from an older version of the source package | 06:46 |
| fabbione | ah ok | 06:46 |
| thom | ogra: ok, if you're doing it tomorrow i'll wait :-) | 06:49 |
| ogra | :) | 06:49 |
| herve | you seem not to be in a hurry :-) | 06:49 |
| ogra | just needs some small tweaks and i wanted to look at the ESC key thing | 06:50 |
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| sabmoc | who judges the artwork for the breazy badger logo? | 07:04 |
| sabmoc | I would like to submit a few WIP's and get some feedback | 07:05 |
| LBM | what steps is used to generate the initial ubuntu Xorg configuration? | 07:06 |
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| Dillweed | hello all. I am currently using the nvidia drivers in hoary and get about 4550 FPS on my graphics card. I also dual-boot with Gentoo and get about 6550 FPS. Xorg.conf are the same. | 07:17 |
| Treenaks | Dillweed: | 07:18 |
| Treenaks | FTP with what, and #ubuntu is the support channel, this is the development channel | 07:18 |
| Dillweed | i understand that. I'm using glxgears. I was wondering if this was a bug or not. | 07:19 |
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| Dillweed | i mean a difference of 2000fps is huge. | 07:20 |
| Treenaks | glxgears is not a benchmarking tool. | 07:20 |
| Dillweed | i know. but it was an informal test. I would of not cared if it was 100fps difference. I would of taken that as chance, but 2000 is huge and random | 07:21 |
| Treenaks | Dillweed: what kind of CPU do you have? | 07:22 |
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| Dillweed | Treenaks, athlon-xp 2000+ | 07:23 |
| Treenaks | that shoudn't be much of a problem either | 07:23 |
| Treenaks | don't have a clue. complain at nvidia | 07:23 |
| Dillweed | i guessing that it is optimization problem? | 07:24 |
| Treenaks | no | 07:24 |
| Treenaks | very unlikely | 07:24 |
| Dillweed | you think so? that's basically the only difference between my systems though. | 07:25 |
| Treenaks | nvidia driver version | 07:25 |
| Dillweed | 6629 | 07:25 |
| Treenaks | you sure that's the same? | 07:25 |
| Treenaks | on both? | 07:25 |
| Dillweed | yes | 07:25 |
| Treenaks | weird.. I have no clue, I'd blame nvidia | 07:25 |
| Dillweed | I know my systems :) | 07:25 |
| Treenaks | (them being the only uncontrollable factor in this) | 07:26 |
| Dillweed | possibly, but i don't think so. | 07:26 |
| ogra | its _very_ likely (naerly sure) that nvidia is to blame | 07:27 |
| Dillweed | the driver is the driver and interfaces with the kernel. maybe I'm using a tweaked kernel in gentoo and not ubuntu | 07:27 |
| Treenaks | Dillweed: are you using the -k7 kernel? | 07:27 |
| Dillweed | yes | 07:27 |
| Treenaks | then it's tweaked already | 07:27 |
| herve | Dillweed, same xorg and kernel versions? | 07:28 |
| ogra | btw, please move this to #ubuntu, this is not a support channel | 07:28 |
| herve | apart from -k7 | 07:28 |
| Dillweed | i moved it to ubuntu but no help | 07:28 |
| Dillweed | I'm wondering if it is a compiled problem. | 07:28 |
| ogra | anyway, this is for ubuntu development... | 07:28 |
| ogra | so please keep it over there | 07:29 |
| Dillweed | I'm using hoary if that makes a difference | 07:29 |
| Treenaks | Dillweed: #ubuntu -- the IRC channel | 07:29 |
| Dillweed | i'm there. | 07:29 |
| Treenaks | Dillweed: ask there, not here then | 07:29 |
| Dillweed | geez not enough sleep. thanks anyways. I thought ubuntu was a helpful environment. | 07:29 |
| herve | Dillweed, search and ask lists too | 07:30 |
| ogra | Dillweed, its a nvidia problem, if nobody answers you it might e because only nvidia can help | 07:30 |
| ogra | s/e/be | 07:30 |
| Dillweed | ogra, i don't understand. | 07:30 |
| ogra | Dillweed, we cant change the driver, only nvidia can | 07:31 |
| ogra | and we dont know whats going on in the binary.. | 07:31 |
| Dillweed | understandable, i'll keep looking. It doesn't look like I'll get help here. | 07:32 |
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| wasabi | I have a cyclic dependency I need to force. =( | 08:11 |
| stuNNed | hi which package if any is gst decodebin in ? | 08:12 |
| dholbach | stuNNed: apt-file search decodebin - this is more of a #ubuntu question | 08:14 |
| stuNNed | dholbach: yes sorry, will do next time | 08:14 |
| dholbach | stuNNed: np | 08:14 |
| schweeb | packages.debian.org is a big help too | 08:14 |
| schweeb | if you don't want to keep apt-file updated | 08:14 |
| schweeb | dunno if there's a ubuntu equivalent to packages.d.o | 08:14 |
| stuNNed | thanks guys /me keeps mouth shut :) | 08:17 |
| dholbach | stuNNed: nobody told you to shut up :-) | 08:17 |
| stuNNed | :D | 08:18 |
| tsume | slirp/misc.o(.text+0x2a): In function `getouraddr': | 08:22 |
| tsume | /home/tsume/qemu/slirp/misc.c:96: warning: Using 'gethostbyname' in statically linked applications requires at runtime the shared libraries from the glibc version used for linking | 08:22 |
| tsume | how can I correct this? | 08:22 |
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| WebMaven | Hi folks. I think th lib.e Python included in Ubuntu is missing a part of the standard | 08:24 |
| WebMaven | Ahem, I meant: I think the Python included in Ubuntu is missing a part of the standard lib. | 08:24 |
| WebMaven | specifically, import profile fails. | 08:25 |
| WebMaven | and it doesn't look like the profile module is installed anywhere. | 08:26 |
| schweeb | chris@omglaptop:~$ apt-cache search python2.4 profile | 08:32 |
| schweeb | python2.4-profiler - deterministic profiling of any Python programs | 08:32 |
| schweeb | that what you're lookin for? | 08:32 |
| === tsume sighs | ||
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| tsume | erm | 09:25 |
| tsume | why isn't wxWidgets packaged for hoary? | 09:25 |
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| ajmitch | tsume: it is | 09:28 |
| ajmitch | it is in universe | 09:28 |
| Amaranth | does wxwidgets finally use gtk 2.x? | 09:29 |
| tsume | ajmitch: erm | 09:30 |
| tsume | ajmitch: universe? | 09:30 |
| tsume | ajmitch: I didnt see anything in dselect ;) | 09:30 |
| ajmitch | tsume: yes, the universe component of hoary | 09:30 |
| ajmitch | check your apt sources.list then :) | 09:30 |
| Amaranth | tsume: you use dselect? | 09:31 |
| === Amaranth spits | ||
| tsume | Amaranth: so? :) | 09:31 |
| tsume | ajmitch: oh I see. | 09:34 |
| tsume | ajmitch: so universe is user contrib? | 09:34 |
| WebMaven | schweeb, no, it's not. I want to be able to do 'import profile'. | 09:34 |
| WebMaven | http://docs.python.org/lib/profile.html | 09:35 |
| ajmitch | tsume: mainly it's packages imported from debian unstable that aren't officially supported | 09:35 |
| tsume | ajmitch: oh. | 09:36 |
| tsume | ajmitch: so I'd be breaking my system if I wasn't careful. Okay | 09:36 |
| dholbach | tsume: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UniversePackages/view?searchterm=universe | 09:37 |
| ajmitch | 'not officially supported' doesn't mean they'll break your system :) | 09:37 |
| tsume | ajmitch: debian packagers are pretty stupid, I've tried -unstable before | 09:37 |
| ajmitch | tsume: many of the ubuntu developers are debian packagers, so I'd not say that.. | 09:37 |
| tsume | ajmitch: so they just create crap for debian and have it come out polished for ubuntu, cuute :) hah | 09:38 |
| Kamion | er, no | 09:38 |
| kylem | maybe you're just a moron. | 09:38 |
| kylem | *plonk* | 09:38 |
| dholbach | hey guys | 09:39 |
| tsume | kylem: I don't think so, I tried -unstable debian _several_ times | 09:39 |
| tsume | kylem: *plonk* to you as well ;) | 09:39 |
| Amaranth | tsume: You're talking to a lot of debian developers here... | 09:40 |
| Amaranth | tsume: Some of them may or may not have the power to ban you. :P | 09:40 |
| Kamion | yes, most people here are pretty familiar with Debian unstable and its strengths and weaknesses; but discussion thereof is not on-topic here | 09:40 |
| tsume | Amaranth: thats because all I see from debian are assholes who like thumping on people who are less fortunate to find manual material | 09:41 |
| tsume | mainly cafuego is an example | 09:41 |
| Amaranth | tsume: You can stop now. | 09:41 |
| Kamion | Ubuntu is not intended as a Debian-bashing forum | 09:41 |
| tsume | kylem: I know this. | 09:41 |
| jbailey | tsume: Did you figure out your glibc stuff? | 09:42 |
| Kamion | WebMaven: yes, that's in the python-profiler package. There are licensing issues with it, so it's separate. | 09:42 |
| helix | tsume: cafuego is not a debian developer, fwiw | 09:42 |
| Amaranth | the profiler license says it can only be used for python, right? | 09:43 |
| tsume | jbailey: I did, it was a silly configure option. If you don't build qemu all the way with every target-list (i386, ppc, arm) then it will error | 09:43 |
| tsume | the warning wasn't important | 09:43 |
| Kamion | Amaranth: right | 09:43 |
| ajmitch | Amaranth: it's quite annoying | 09:43 |
| tsume | jbailey: there was actually more beneath the warning which was making it stop the build | 09:43 |
| Amaranth | i bet | 09:43 |
| jbailey | tsume: Cool. Also in general, you can't static link an app that has anything to do with authentication, or database lookups (dns, etc...) | 09:44 |
| tsume | helix: I know, but he is like dblack of the ruby community. He is suffering from big penis symdrome and has some power over the support and project people wise. | 09:44 |
| dholbach | tseng: hey, will you please drop it | 09:45 |
| tsume | jbailey: well :) heh I figured that out. | 09:45 |
| dholbach | oops | 09:45 |
| dholbach | tsume: ^ | 09:45 |
| tsume | jbailey: I usually only use BSD, but the laptop is an exception :) | 09:45 |
| dholbach | tseng: sorry for that :-) | 09:46 |
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| tsume | dholbach: I'd appreciate it if you didn't interrupt | 09:46 |
| tsume | dholbach: I was answering a statement. | 09:46 |
| Kamion | tsume: cafuego has no power over the Debian project people-wise, and again, this discussion doesn't belong here | 09:47 |
| tsume | is there a 'multiverse' in hoary? | 09:47 |
| dholbach | tsume: is that so? well, i think for most in here: this is a development channel and nobody really cares who you can't stand | 09:47 |
| Kamion | tsume: yes | 09:47 |
| dholbach | ...i think i speak... | 09:47 |
| tsume | what does multiverse compose of? | 09:47 |
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| Kamion | non-free unsupported packages | 09:48 |
| tsume | okay.. :) then what is the difference between multiverse, and universe? | 09:48 |
| Kamion | universe => free unsupported packages | 09:48 |
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| tsume | ohh.. | 09:48 |
| zenwhen | and superverse is where the candy and drinks are kept | 09:49 |
| Kamion | tsume: http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/components | 09:49 |
| tsume | hehe.. | 09:49 |
| dholbach | tsume: i referred to a link to the wiki a few minutes ago | 09:49 |
| LinuxJones | guys there are a couple of idiots spamming #ubuntu can someone pop in and make them stop ?? NeWXeR and Groil | 09:50 |
| tritium | can anyone point out a package that has a good watch file for sourceforge.net that I can learn by example from? | 09:53 |
| WebMaven | Kamion, but isn't that part of the standard python library? Wouldn't that out it under the Python license? | 09:57 |
| Kamion | WebMaven: it is part of the Python standard library, but it is not under the unmodified Python license | 09:59 |
| Kamion | WebMaven: see http://www.python.org/doc/2.4/lib/node829.html | 09:59 |
| Kamion | we've been discussing the issue with upstream | 10:00 |
| Kamion | (not me personally though, so don't ask me for more detail than that :-)) | 10:00 |
| === Amaranth bbl | ||
| === jamesh [~james@203-59-151-58.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
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| tsume | where can I request software for packaging? | 10:29 |
| tsume | widestudio is an excellent toolkit, and stabple, but debian still have the 4 year old version | 10:29 |
| tsume | *stable | 10:29 |
| tsume | 4 years old is too long, the new release 3.90-1 has even java support :) | 10:30 |
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| mdz | tsume: www.ubuntu.com/wiki/MOTU | 10:31 |
| mdz | these things go faster if you offer to help, rather than complaining about the current situation | 10:32 |
| tsume | mdz: I can help! :) | 10:32 |
| tsume | mdz: widestudio is important to me, and I use it on a daily basis. I know its stable | 10:33 |
| tsume | mdz: heh.. masters of the universe.. hehe :) | 10:33 |
| wasabi | widestudio (3.50-2-2) unstable; urgency=low | 10:37 |
| wasabi | * Orphaned this package. | 10:37 |
| tsume | it needs to be deleted | 10:37 |
| tsume | many debianers on a few MLs were getting confused at WideStudio because I told them about it, and they immediately went to the archive instead of the website | 10:38 |
| mdz | it doesn't need to be deleted just because it's an old version | 10:38 |
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| tsume | mdz: and what about the bugs and exploits? | 10:38 |
| mdz | tsume: there aren't any reported | 10:39 |
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| IamNEGATIVECREEP | hi | 11:09 |
| IamNEGATIVECREEP | alguem fala portugues? | 11:09 |
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| === ogra kicks "man strcmp" | ||
| ogra | who writes such crap... | 11:10 |
| stuNNed | good manpages *with* examples are key imho | 11:11 |
| ogra | It returns an integer less than, equal to, or greater than zero if s1 is found | 11:11 |
| ogra | so how do i know if the strings match ??? man, they should learn to explain it right... | 11:12 |
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| wasabi | So what's the process to get something moved from multiverse to universe? | 11:15 |
| === sabmoc is away: onBlur(); | ||
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| thom | wasabi: prove to elmo that the license is Free | 11:21 |
| wasabi | okay. this is odd then. | 11:25 |
| wasabi | http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/Lists/hoary.all.i386 | 11:25 |
| wasabi | notice bcel. It's depwaiting on j2sdk1.4 isn't it? | 11:25 |
| wasabi | (trying to interpret) | 11:25 |
| wasabi | however, it doesn't actually depend on j2sdk1.4 anymore | 11:27 |
| Amaranth | anyone here know how the fd.o menu spec works? | 11:32 |
| Amaranth | i've got an applications.menu file in ~/.config/menus/ that merges user entries into the GNOME menu but it doesn't replace system ones with their user versions | 11:32 |
| Amaranth | like if i have testingthis.desktop in the system menus and the user ones it uses the system one | 11:33 |
| doko | LANGUAGE is a colon separated list of locale names, is there a reason why the encoding is not included in the locale names? | 11:37 |
| doko | kamion: ^^^ | 11:43 |
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| lamont | wasabi: you need something cleared? | 11:47 |
| === lamont applies a sledge hammer | ||
| lamont | wasabi: I have informed the buildd that j2sdk1.4 is there. | 11:49 |
| wasabi | It's not there. ;) | 11:49 |
| lamont | mind you, that's a lie | 11:49 |
| wasabi | k | 11:49 |
| wasabi | Just to test, for future knowledge, I did a second upload. | 11:49 |
| wasabi | I was just curious if it would bump it. | 11:49 |
| lamont | but it's easier than taking the one package, and giving it back | 11:50 |
| lamont | it won't | 11:50 |
| wasabi | In case you get hit by a train someday. | 11:50 |
| lamont | dep-waits are forever | 11:50 |
| wasabi | oh. | 11:50 |
| WebMaven | Kamion, thanks for the pointer. | 11:50 |
| wasabi | Seems like depwaits should update if there is a new version available. ;0 | 11:50 |
| lamont | there are lamont-backups | 11:50 |
| lamont | and there are times it seems they shouldn't. | 11:50 |
| ogra | thom, a present for you.... | 11:50 |
| dholbach | lamont: tritium nearly cleared the whole defoma list, it's done now | 11:50 |
| lamont | sometimes the depwait is not immediately obvious from looking at the package, etc. | 11:50 |
| ogra | (hope it builds everywere) | 11:50 |
| lamont | dholbach: woot | 11:51 |
| dholbach | :-) | 11:51 |
| WebMaven | The zope3 package depends on the presence of the profile module (at least for running the unit tests) | 11:51 |
| wasabi | lamont, j2sdk1.3 also | 11:51 |
| wasabi | for rhino | 11:51 |
| wasabi | my other package in question. ;0 | 11:51 |
| thom | ogra: new screensaver? oooooh oooooh oooh | 11:52 |
| ogra | :) | 11:53 |
| ogra | didnt fix the ESC key thing yet, but designwise it should be k now | 11:54 |
| doko | WebMaven: please could you file a but report | 11:54 |
| lamont | wasabi: done | 11:55 |
| wasabi | thanks! | 11:55 |
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| === thom waves at mjg59 | ||
| === lamont goes into town with the kids for a bit. | ||
| dholbach | lamont: have fun :-) | 11:59 |
| lamont | oh yeah. loads. | 11:59 |
| dholbach | good :-) | 11:59 |
| ogra | lamont, what do they bite ? | 11:59 |
| ogra | *g* | 11:59 |
| Loevborg | thom, your nickname upsets me - each time I see it, I wonder if you might be the real thom. disappointment quickly ensues. | 12:01 |
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