[12:54] <sm> hi 
[12:54] <mdke> howdy pardner
[12:55] <mdke> sm, your call if you wanna try and test the zopeedit thing
[12:55] <mdke> if you're busy, np
[12:55] <sm> oh I forgot.. thanks
[12:55] <mdke> seriously np
[12:55] <sm> yes, can you try right now on ubuntu wiki TestPage
[12:55] <mdke> it works on testpage last time i checked
[12:55] <mdke> but not on other
[12:55] <mdke> s
[12:56] <sm> ok.. any page where it doesnt work.. show me
[12:56] <mdke> ok hang on
[12:57] <mdke> hmm
[12:57] <mdke> just worked on MatthewEast
[12:58] <mdke> lol
[12:58] <mdke> dammit
[12:58] <mdke> just worked on ItalianDocumentation
[12:58] <sm> drat :)
[12:58] <mdke> well
[12:59] <mdke> its good news
[12:59] <mdke> :)
[12:59] <mdke> you've put a curse on me tho
[12:59] <mdke> worked on DocumentationArea
[01:00] <sm> yay.. let me see
[01:00] <mdke> i've reverted em
[01:00] <mdke> could it be related to the amount of time spent on editing? these have been very brief of course
[01:01] <mdke> its definitely working now
[01:01] <mdke> tried also on GettingUbuntu
[01:01] <sm> shouldn't be
[01:01] <sm> ubuntu has squid caching things, but it's been reliable for me
[01:02] <sm> DocumentationArea's purpose now is the starting point for user docs, am I right
[01:02] <mdke> hmm
[01:02] <mdke> sm, I haven't changed it
[01:02] <mdke> but yeah i guess so
[01:03] <mdke> i've started some testing pages for exploring a cleaner structure pursuant to that thread on the list that you and Mary were commenting on
[01:04] <mdke> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/IdeasForNewFrontPageStructure
[01:07] <sm> good stuff
[01:07] <mdke> hmm
[01:07] <mdke> feeeeeedback
[01:08] <sm> I think renaming DocumentationArea to UserDocumentation would be a good step
[01:08] <mdke> would you write it on that page pls? also any further categories of documentation that might be good subcategories for that page
[01:08] <mdke> that is a good idea i think
[01:09] <mdke> got the structured text articles down into double figures today ;)
[01:09] <mdke> nothing better than watching james bond on tv and converting wiki pages to moinmoin
[01:09] <sm> I wrote it on the list already
[01:09] <mdke> sm, thanks :)
[01:09] <sm> I could just do it, that would be clear eh :)
[01:09] <mdke> i don't mind doing it
[01:10] <sm> this is a wiki.. it's just waiting for someone to feel strongly enough :)
[01:10] <sm> I should do it and take the heat :)
[01:10] <mdke> oh the rename
[01:10] <mdke> yeah its not a problem
[01:11] <mdke> aren't you the wikimaster anyhow?
[01:11] <sm> I'm one of the volunteers with admin access.. but no special authority over anything
[01:11] <mdke> hmm
[01:11] <sm> changing.. done
[01:11] <mdke> what is NewFrontPage?
[01:12] <sm> at least I try not exercise any 
[01:12] <mdke> i never saw that page before
[01:12] <sm> wikimaster.. WikiMaster.. MasterOfWiki.. hmm, hmm..
[01:13] <mdke> damn i can't believe i didn't see that page
[01:13] <sm> I 've seen it
[01:13] <sm> can't remember if it's really the old page
[01:13] <sm> I think it is
[01:14] <mdke> its better than the current one :p
[01:14] <sm> it's the old new old front page
[01:14] <mdke> lol
[01:14] <sm> that happens sometimes :)
[01:14] <mdke> hmm
[01:14] <mdke> whoa
[01:14] <sm> I like those compact layouts.. the simple one was nice
[01:14] <mdke> SimpleFrontPage?
[01:15] <mdke> its a bit "html"
[01:15] <mdke> a bit last summer
[01:15] <sm> more efficient for a reader
[01:15] <mdke> yeah i agree
[01:15] <sm> but not as simple to edit.. not sure how to do it in moin actually
[01:15] <mdke> not sure it can be done
[01:15] <sm> there's tables.. I expect so
[01:15] <mdke> html is a pain in the ass to edit except with zopeedit ;)
[01:16] <sm> yeah.. in special cases it can be worth it I think
[01:16] <sm> since the alternative is a less useful page
[01:16] <mdke> but it is a good idea in principle, because then things can be split off into subpages
[01:16] <mdke> a FrontPage with 5 or 6 links would be the way forward i think. DOCS, WIKI, TEAMS, COMMUNITY, POLICY etc
[01:17] <mdke> you had to amend links to rename that doc did you?
[01:18] <mdke> i thought they go automatically
[01:19] <sm> they usually do.. and did this time
[01:19] <sm> but I was fooled for a bit due to caching
[01:19] <sm> had to shift reload
[01:19] <mdke> hmm
[01:20] <mdke> saw you deep in the polish and portugese docs ;)
[01:20] <sm> that was zwiki
[01:20] <mdke> no way?
[01:20] <mdke> cool
[01:20] <sm> way :)
[01:20] <mdke> oh yeah
[01:20] <mdke> you would have had to be really fast
[01:20] <mdke> well you still get the credit
[01:21] <sm> we've been keeping the FrontPage mostly free of subtopics.. I think I'll reparent that latest bunch away
[01:21] <mdke> sure
[01:21] <mdke> i'm doing that fairly often
[01:21] <sm> cool
[01:21] <mdke> my favourite is parenting userpages
[01:21] <mdke> :(
[01:22] <sm> just putting them at top level.. I'm sure there's a better place
[01:22] <mdke> how do you do that?
[01:23] <sm> drat this cache
[01:23] <mdke> yeah
[01:24] <sm> I switch to full mode in the zwiki skin (plone skin works too); open each immediate child in a new tab; click reparent button at bottom of each
[01:24] <mdke> so reparent without any content in the box?
[01:24] <sm> right, puts them at the top
[01:24] <mdke> do you get the one where you log in and it gives you "page not found" and refers you to related links
[01:24] <mdke> love it
[01:25] <sm> yeah, that sucks
[01:25] <mdke> i filed a bug today actually on that, because it was annoying me so much
[01:25] <mdke> hi hypatia 
[01:26] <hypatia> hi
[01:26] <mdke> pleased to meet you
[01:26] <mdke> <- matt
[01:28] <mdke> YAY
[01:28] <mdke> feedback on the wiki structure page
[01:28] <mdke> what a star
[01:36] <sm> mdke: can you point me that login bug ? I have search fatigue
[01:36] <sm> oh was it on WikiWishlist ?
[01:37] <mdke> no hang on
[01:37] <mdke> sm 7839
[01:39] <sm> thanks
[01:40] <hypatia> I post to the lists occasionally :)
[01:41] <mdke> hi :)
[01:41] <sm> hi mary!
[01:41] <sm> <- simon
[01:42] <mdke> this is a great moment
[01:42] <mdke> 3 great minds
[01:42] <mdke> in the same place
[01:46] <mdke> *coughs*
[02:00] <mdke> <-- bed
[02:00] <mdke> bye all
[02:01] <sm> can't solve it right now.. night all
[07:55] <froud> How to develop and build VB apps on Linux. I am darned if I am gonna work on Windoze just for this.
[08:04] <Burgundavia> uh right
[08:04] <Burgundavia> break out the bats
[08:21] <froud> Burgundavia: hello
[08:22] <froud> Hmmm, musing over KBasic
[08:22] <froud> http://www.kbasic.de
[08:22] <froud> Do you know anything about it
[08:25] <froud> Burgundavia: did you get to the screen capt of BitTorrent
[08:27] <Burgundavia> nope
[08:27] <Burgundavia> will get one now
[08:30] <froud> Burgundavia: thanks
[08:31] <froud> penguins and kongi everywhere, but no nix download
[08:32] <froud> ah I get it
[08:32] <froud> he only has a preview ready for windows
[08:33] <Burgundavia> that website is ouch
[08:34] <Burgundavia> but a cool idea
[08:34] <Burgundavia> I remember running into the line limit on an apple ] [ with basic
[08:34] <Burgundavia> 64k lines I think
[08:34] <Burgundavia> me and a friend
[08:35] <froud> Burgundavia: thanks for that patch
[08:36] <Burgundavia> totally forgot about it
[08:36] <Burgundavia> I should do some looking at the release notes and quickguide tomorrow
[08:36] <froud> hapens, I have made a review and marked status complete
[08:37] <froud> What about User or Admin Guide
[08:38] <froud> yeah the web site in eeihna
[08:38] <froud> hey call more time, howzit maskie 
[08:39] <froud> maskie: you got any idea how to write VB6 on Linux
[08:39] <Burgundavia> you can do VB.Net on *nix, but VB6?
[08:40] <Burgundavia> as an aside, ms just announced that is not supported VB6 anymore
[08:40] <froud> Yeah, but that is the spec I have
[08:41] <froud> bsides I dont think VB6 will dies that fast
[08:41] <froud> too many programmers
[08:41] <Burgundavia> I don't think so either
[08:41] <Burgundavia> This is a case of ms trying to push something that most people don't want
[08:41] <Burgundavia> big surprise
[08:41] <froud> yeah normally works that way
[08:42] <Burgundavia> http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/infoworld/20050311/tc_infoworld/57636
[08:43] <froud> Oh well let's hope they will piss off enough ms vb devs so they move to Linux :-)
[08:43] <Burgundavia> For the really adventurous, try XBasic, a BASIC compiler that runs under both Windows and Linux
[08:43] <Burgundavia> from http://www.computerbooksonline.com/program/vb6dchap.htm
[08:43] <Burgundavia> http://sourceforge.net/projects/vb4linux/
[08:44] <Burgundavia> that is what I grabbed in about 3 secs
[08:46] <froud> yes I saw xbasic
[08:47] <Burgundavia> I doubt any of them are actually useful
[08:47] <froud> from vb4linux "So far, there are currently 3 developers for the VB4Linux project. We'll probably begin in about a week or so... Still looking for more developers!"
[08:48] <Burgundavia> ouch
[08:50] <Burgundavia> there seems to be a commercial app called REALBasic that seems to do what you need, on the outset
[08:50] <Burgundavia> only $400 USD
[08:50] <Burgundavia> I'll take 3
[08:50] <Burgundavia> and one for the dog
[08:50] <froud> Yes, and I want it open
[08:50] <froud> :-(
[08:51] <froud> seems like a simple thing
[08:51] <Burgundavia> can you convince the client to use python or something else?
[08:52] <froud> No he is a ms preacher ;-)
[08:52] <froud> it's ms or nothing
[08:52] <froud> he wants the source
[08:52] <Burgundavia> so why does it need to run on linux?
[08:53] <Burgundavia> wait a sec
[08:53] <froud> he does not
[08:53] <froud> he needs it on windows
[08:53] <Burgundavia> he wants the source and he wants ms?
[08:53] <froud> yes, but he pays handsomely for the src
[08:54] <Burgundavia> can you sell him on the wonders of Ironpython and .Net then?
[08:54] <Burgundavia> the ironpython dev is a microsoftie
[08:54] <froud> He he, he wants it VB because it will integrate in a much bigger system
[08:55] <Burgundavia> well, looks like someone gets to use xp then
[08:55] <froud> you know ERP system
[08:55] <Burgundavia> nope
[08:55] <froud> no his system is an ERP
[08:57] <froud> now that's the kinda projects I want more of :-)
[08:57] <Burgundavia> what is ICDL?
[08:58] <froud> Today I must find a way to automate porting this stuff to Docbook
[08:58] <froud> International Computer Drivers License
[08:58] <froud> The Shuttleworth Foundation is releasing it as a free and open project under CC-BY-SA 2.0
[08:59] <froud> very cool
[08:59] <Burgundavia> ah, wouldn't be nice to have that kind of money
[08:59] <Burgundavia> move worlds with it
[08:59] <cc> froud: a CC-By-SA ICDL ?
[08:59] <froud> He he they have a plan
[08:59] <froud> cc: yes
[08:59] <cc> froud: where is it ?
[08:59] <Burgundavia> froud: "The Synaptic package manager also now includes support to upgrade your Ubuntu Distribution." from the release notes
[09:00] <Burgundavia> what does this mean exactly?
[09:00] <Burgundavia> is this update warty-->hoary?
[09:00] <froud> cc: not yet released I have to d osome spade work over the netx few months
[09:00] <froud> Burgundavia: yes
[09:00] <froud> Burgundavia: works well too
[09:00] <cc> froud: spade work?
[09:00] <cc> i.e. you're writing it ?
[09:01] <froud> cc: no it is already written, I need to port it to docbook, setup the web and do the repos stuff etc
[09:01] <cc> froud: oh, is there a chance i can take a gander at it ?
[09:01] <froud> cc: when it is released it will be free for all to gander
[09:01] <Burgundavia> froud: what is status of the release notes? Can I change to wording of that sentence to make a little clearer?
[09:02] <froud> Burgundavia: sure
[09:02] <Burgundavia> froud: ok
[09:02] <froud> cc: you have an interest in ICDL?
[09:02] <cc> froud: so it isn't now, ok, thanks
[09:03] <cc> froud: yes, i made a similar proposal before (not to canonical, but linux-aus)
[09:03] <froud> cc: the icdl has written their materials and with tsf will release it free
[09:03] <froud> cc: this is great news
[09:03] <cc> froud: but they're not OSS based
[09:03] <cc> the ICDL materials are windoze based
[09:04] <froud> cc: no but they are comming over
[09:04] <froud> cc: this is ICDL using OOo
[09:04] <cc> froud: oh, that is really interesting and good to note
[09:04] <cc> rocking.
[09:04] <cc> i had interet to base it off stuf fi did before
[09:04] <froud> good news here in Africa
[09:04] <cc> at http://training.bytebot.net
[09:05] <froud> he he lol you have that bookmarked too
[09:05] <cc> no, thats at the top of my head
[09:05] <cc> thats my work :P
[09:05] <froud> what's your work?
[09:05] <cc> the stuff at training.bytebot.net
[09:06] <cc> the OOo and Linux stuff. old but mine
[09:06] <froud> really
[09:06] <froud> cool dude
[09:06] <froud> you may be interested then in the LearnLinux project
[09:06] <froud> http://learnlinux.tsf.org.za
[09:07] <froud> the doc-team will hopefully be creating an Ubuntu version of it
[09:07] <froud> the src is already in svn in my branch
[09:07] <cc> ah, nice
[09:07] <froud> you game to devel an ubuntu version
[09:07] <cc> definitely
[09:07] <cc> which is why i thought of icdl a while ago
[09:08] <froud> do you have a working copy of the repos
[09:08] <Burgundavia> froud: I got a couple of errors with the release notes
[09:08] <cc> no
[09:08] <Burgundavia> Entity 'distro-rev' not defined
[09:08] <froud> Burgundavia: he he hold
[09:08] <Burgundavia> ?
[09:09] <Burgundavia> it also said that it can't parse global.ent
[09:09] <froud> no document is valid
[09:09] <Burgundavia> ok
[09:09] <froud> did you svn up from the trunk lately
[09:09] <froud> we moved release notes
[09:09] <froud> now in releasenotes/
[09:09] <Burgundavia> yep, synced this morning
[09:10] <Burgundavia> nothing come by but our stuff since
[09:10] <froud> Hmm do you have releasenotes/
[09:10] <froud> cc: learnlinux stuff is in my branch
[09:11] <Burgundavia> yep
[09:11] <froud> cc: do you have a working copy of branches/
[09:11] <froud> Burgundavia: try again
[09:11] <froud> it validates on my system
[09:11] <cc> froud: no, but if you point me to instructions, i'll co it now
[09:11] <froud> and trickie has not reported an problem
[09:12] <froud> cc: so you have used svn before
[09:12] <cc> yes
[09:12] <froud> cc: best thing is to do svn co https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos
[09:12] <froud> that will give you tags/ branches/ trunk/ and vendor/
[09:13] <froud> after Hoary I will merge my branch into trunk/
[09:13] <Burgundavia> aww crap
[09:13] <froud> Burgundavia: why
[09:13] <Burgundavia> after 756, it won't even load
[09:13] <Burgundavia> /home/rasputin/Ubuntu%20Documentation%20Team/trunk/releasenotes/release-notes.xml:11: parser error : StartTag: invalid element name
[09:13] <Burgundavia> <<<<<<< .mine
[09:14] <froud> dude it loads here
[09:14] <froud> from HEAD
[09:15] <froud> you have a patch     conflicting
[09:15] <froud> perhaps you did a commit before doing svn up
[09:15] <froud> it's only bken in your WC
[09:15] <Burgundavia> ya, I regrabbed from svn and it works now
[09:16] <froud> cc: there is over 1400 pages in LearnLinux
[09:16] <froud> cc: we will need to co-ordinate our effort very well in order to do it
[09:17] <cc> froud: hmm, sure
[09:17] <froud> cc: any ideas are welcome
[09:17] <froud> cc: we dont have to keep it as it is
[09:17] <froud> cc: the result will be the will of the community
[09:18] <froud> cc: we will however give credit to the original team
[09:18] <froud> cc: and add credit of those who contribute
[09:19] <froud> cc: so structure changes as well as content changes are welcome
[09:20] <froud> cc: btw there is no desktop stuff in there
[09:20] <cc> froud: how big is the check out ?
[09:20] <froud> cc: its all cli
[09:20] <cc> repos/trunk/images is getting largeish
[09:21] <froud> cc: yes, but once you have it the rest is easy
[09:21] <cc> froud: how large is the initial co ?
[09:21] <froud> no idea
[09:24] <froud> cc in my wc it is 94.5 MB but that includes management files which take a lot of space. yours should be less
[09:26] <cc> froud: thanks. makes me feel better ;-)
[09:26] <froud> cc: scary stuff?
[09:26] <cc> froud: no, bandwidth is an issue
[09:26] <cc> i'd prefer to do it from 2am onwards when traffic is free if its really large
[09:26] <froud> cc: where are you co.za
[09:26] <cc> froud: australia
[09:27] <froud> never had bandwidth problems while in au
[09:27] <froud> bigpond cable is awesome
[09:27] <cc> we have download quotas/caps
[09:27] <cc> optus cable is what i'm on 
[09:27] <froud> yes
[09:27] <cc> i get 12gb/month
[09:27] <froud> I had that problem a few times
[09:27] <cc> and thats not enough when tracking unstable releases
[09:27] <froud> luck you we get 3gb
[09:28] <cc> well, yeah, 3gb last time. they recently upgraded us
[09:28] <froud> so what do you do when you are not working on FOSS
[09:28] <cc> froud: not much, i'm a foss person
[09:30] <froud> paid to work by who?
[09:32] <froud> go on you can say
[09:32] <froud> we wont hold it against you 
[09:36] <froud> cc: nice smile
[09:36] <cc> froud: hah
[09:36] <cc> sorry, was awol for a bit
[09:36] <cc> be back later, definitely
[09:37] <froud> ok
[09:38] <froud> strange how when the hard questions come people always must go
[09:40] <cc> froud: i am unemployed, completely. i get paid by no one. i occasionally do contractual gigs here and there
[09:40] <cc> froud: and i'm mainly involved in the fedora project; would love to get paid OSS work, definitely
[11:10] <mdke> tu-it-dev
[11:11] <mdke> good morning
[11:11] <Burgundavia> salut
[11:12] <enrico> hi
[11:15] <mdke> enrico, i've subscribed to the wiki, how does that script work?
[11:20] <enrico> I use it on a Maildir-format mailbox (one file per mail)
[11:20] <enrico> You cd inside the Maildir and run the script: it prints a line per message, with some stats
[11:21] <enrico> Then save the output, and run wsaggregate on it
[11:28] <mdke> enrico, ah i c
[11:28] <mdke> enrico, it won't work on an mbox
[11:28] <mdke> ?
[11:28] <enrico> Uhm, probably not
[11:28] <mdke> ho capito
[01:08] <mdke> ping mako
[04:23] <jsgotangco> greets
[04:24] <froud> jsgotangco: hello
[04:27] <jsgotangco> how to start in the docteam?
[04:30] <froud> jsgotangco: what do you want to do, wiki or Docbook?
[04:30] <froud> Starting point for all is http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeam
[04:32] <jsgotangco> well i have been doing wiki work for sometime
[04:34] <froud> Do you want to continue or are you looking to learn somethng new
[04:34] <jsgotangco> well i want to go further
[04:34] <jsgotangco> something new too
[04:34] <jsgotangco> :D
[04:34] <froud> ok, do you know docbook
[04:35] <froud> it's not a problem if you don't
[04:35] <jsgotangco> i have no idea
[04:35] <froud> Ok best thing is to see if you can get through this http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepRepository
[04:36] <froud> Follow the instructions if you have questions, shout and I will help
[04:36] <froud> It's easier than it sounds
[04:37] <jsgotangco> ok ill check it out
[04:37] <froud> cool, once you have a feel we will get you started on something
[04:37] <froud> are you using GNOME or KDE
[04:38] <jsgotangco> im on gnome
[04:38] <froud> OK running HOARY
[04:38] <jsgotangco> yeah
[04:38] <froud> Cool dude
[04:39] <froud> OK you will also want to subscribe to mailing lists
[04:39] <froud> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ForTheHasty
[04:39] <froud>  user-list
[04:39] <froud>     http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
[04:39] <froud> commit-list
[04:39] <froud>     http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc-commits
[04:40] <jsgotangco> oh cool Ill subscribe then
[04:40] <jsgotangco> btw
[04:40] <jsgotangco> i got confirmation for ubuntudownunder
[04:41] <froud> Cool
[04:41] <froud> Tools you need to install
[04:41] <froud> Docbook
[04:41] <froud> Docbook XSL
[04:41] <froud> xmllint
[04:41] <froud> sudo apt-get insstall docbook
[04:41] <froud> sudo apt-get install docbook-xsl
[04:42] <froud> sudo apt-get install xsltproc
[04:43] <jsgotangco> done
[04:44] <froud> sudo apt-get install libxml2-utils
[04:45] <froud> Hmm. That should so it for now
[04:46] <jsgotangco> ok ill try out first that stepbystep link and see if i can manage that
[04:46] <froud> C c'ing ya ;-)
[04:46] <froud> welcome to the Docteam BTW
[04:47] <mdke> hi jsgotangco 
[04:47] <mdke> welcome
[04:47] <jsgotangco> thanks thanks
[05:06] <abelli> ciao
[05:20] <jsgotangco> well i gotta catch some Zzzzzz
[05:20] <jsgotangco> later people