[02:49] <jsgotangco> greetings
[03:27] <sabmoc> jsgotangco, hey dude
[03:28] <jsgotangco> alex hey you still awake haha
[03:28] <sabmoc> its only 6pm
[03:29] <sabmoc> of course im awake
[03:29] <jsgotangco> oh you already slept then
[03:29] <sabmoc> im alaways awake >_>
[03:29] <jsgotangco> i thought you were still in zombie mode
[03:29] <sabmoc> no, drank some holy potion and im ok now
[03:29] <jsgotangco> hope its not moonshine
[03:30] <sabmoc> thats too holy for me
[03:30] <sabmoc> i prefer beer
[03:30] <jsgotangco> im so bored here at work i wanna go home its only 10:30 am but the holiday feeling is already in me
[03:31] <sabmoc> everyday is like that for me
[03:31] <jsgotangco> well we're having some catholic holidays starting tommorow till sunday
[03:31] <sabmoc> ah cool
[03:32] <sabmoc> im going to draw for a bit, ill be back later
[03:32] <jsgotangco> k see ya
[03:44] <EricNeon> any body could build a web site as "www.chubuntu.org" for Chinese team of ubuntu?
[03:47] <jsgotangco> hi eric
[03:48] <jsgotangco> you might want to check out the wiki pages for details on registering a domain with the ubuntu name
[03:48] <jsgotangco> but if your local team is already established, you can always request ubuntu for an ubuntu-cc.org domain
[03:48] <jsgotangco> i think for china, it might be ubuntu-cn
[03:48] <jsgotangco> ubuntu.cn.org i believe
[03:48] <jsgotangco> wait should be ubuntu-cn.org 
[03:49] <jsgotangco> its best you consult the wiki first
[03:49] <EricNeon> ok
[03:49] <EricNeon> ubuntu-cn
[03:50] <EricNeon> when could web site begin?
[03:50] <EricNeon> just "www.ubuntu-cn.org"
[03:51] <jsgotangco> you have to consult matthias urlichs for that
[03:51] <jsgotangco> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MatthiasUrlichs
[03:53] <EricNeon> I had find it ,but I can't see it
[03:54] <EricNeon> let me retry
[04:25] <sabmoc> EricNeon, hi, are you thinking of starting a local team for china?
[04:26] <sabmoc> I am in the process of starting a Canadian team
[04:26] <sabmoc> EricNeon, you can see our page here, if you have any questions let me know https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CanadianTeam
[04:39] <jsgotangco> you will fail!
[04:39] <jsgotangco> joke
[04:39] <jsgotangco> hehhe
[04:59] <EricNeon> ^
[04:59] <EricNeon> hello
[04:59] <EricNeon> sabmoc
[05:00] <EricNeon> I will start a Chinese Team for ubuntu
[05:02] <EricNeon> now ,we had some members, for example  Hiweed Leng,Carlos Liu, Huahua Easthero
[05:05] <jsgotangco> just make a table
[05:05] <jsgotangco> ill show you later
[05:06] <jsgotangco> i gotta eat first
[05:06] <EricNeon> jsgotangco, where are you from?
[05:07] <EricNeon> I am in Shanghai now
[05:07] <EricNeon> I gotta eat too
[05:17] <sabmoc> hi EricNeon im here
[05:18] <sabmoc> EricNeon, I was just in Shenzhen about a month ago
[05:48] <EricNeon> I am be back
[05:48] <EricNeon> lol~
[05:49] <EricNeon> nice to meet you sabmoc
[05:49] <EricNeon> many of my friend are in Canada
[05:55] <sabmoc> EricNeon, nice to meet you also
[05:55] <sabmoc> I'll be back in one moment
[05:55] <EricNeon> :)
[05:59] <EricNeon> I must re compile xchat
[06:10] <sabmoc> hi
[06:44] <jsgotangco> EricNeon hi i am in Manila at the moment
[06:44] <jsgotangco> i just came from lunch
[06:44] <EricNeon> hoho
[06:45] <EricNeon> I had lunch one hour ago
[06:46] <EricNeon> what are you do in Manila?
[06:48] <EricNeon> I am looking for any body who is love ubuntu in chinese
[06:51] <jsgotangco> EricNeon: i am of chinese descent but unfortunately, i was not trained in mandarin at home
[06:51] <jsgotangco> my grandfather came from guangdong
[06:51] <EricNeon> ohmy english is so pool
[06:52] <EricNeon> :)
[06:53] <jsgotangco> heh its ok man youre cool
[06:53] <EricNeon> I am realy ZheJiang ShaoXing
[06:53] <EricNeon> I work and living at Shanghai 
[06:54] <jsgotangco> hello i am jerome
[06:54] <jsgotangco> nice to meet you
[06:55] <EricNeon> me too
[06:55] <EricNeon> now ,I have to working
[06:55] <EricNeon> see you !
[06:55] <jsgotangco> me too talk to you later
[07:30] <jsgotangco> Burg hi
[07:34] <Burgundavia> salut
[07:49] <sabmoc> hello
[07:56] <EricNeon> hi
[07:59] <Burgundavia> salut all
[08:01] <jsgotangco> salut
[08:09] <sabmoc> HI guys
[08:10] <sabmoc> I finished my badger today :P ..im just watching some tv
[08:10] <jsgotangco> how does it look like now?
[08:10] <sabmoc> want to see it?
[08:11] <jsgotangco> sure
[08:13] <Burgundavia> sounds good
[08:13] <sabmoc> Hi Burgundavia 
[08:14] <sabmoc> shall I send it to you also?
[08:14] <sabmoc> jsgotangco, sent
[08:15] <Burgundavia> yes
[08:17] <jsgotangco> the breezy badger?
[08:17] <jsgotangco> i thought it was benny badger
[08:17] <BuffaloSoldier> the last i heard it was breezy
[08:17] <sabmoc> yep thats what I heard
[08:19] <sabmoc> jsgotangco, so what do you think, any suggestions?
[08:19] <jsgotangco> on the UbuntuDownUnder wiki, it was "bendy badger"
[08:19] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[08:21] <sabmoc> well the announcement for the mascot competition says breezy, but it doesnt matter I can just edit that text and change to to whatever I need to.
[08:21] <BuffaloSoldier> i got breezy from here http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=20381
[08:22] <sabmoc> BuffaloSoldier, I dont think I have introduced myself yet, hello
[08:22] <jsgotangco> can anyone log into the wiki i get authentication failures
[08:22] <BuffaloSoldier> sabmoc: me too.. hi there
[08:22] <sabmoc> BuffaloSoldier, my names Alex, I'm in Canada
[08:23] <BuffaloSoldier> sabmoc: I'm Firdaus from Malaysia
[08:23] <sabmoc> nice to meet you
[08:26] <Burgundavia> sabmoc: nice work
[08:28] <sabmoc> Burgundavia, have any suggestions?
[08:28] <BuffaloSoldier> what are you guys up to?
[08:28] <jsgotangco> it seems the wiki isnt working at the moment
[08:29] <Burgundavia> sabmoc: to be honest, I liked the badger without the computer
[08:29] <Burgundavia> sabmoc: simpler and cleaner
[08:29] <sabmoc> BuffaloSoldier, Im just showing them a picture I did for the mascot competition
[08:29] <Burgundavia> sabmoc: but the new colour is nice
[08:29] <BuffaloSoldier> Ubuntu is going to have a mascot? :) nice
[08:29] <sabmoc> Burgundavia, yeah Im not so sure about the computer
[08:30] <jsgotangco> ditch the desktop
[08:30] <sabmoc> but then what do I put infront of him? he is positioned to be looking at something
[08:31] <sabmoc> I think I might have to scrap it and start again.
[08:33] <sabmoc> BuffaloSoldier, well hopefully some real artist are also making some pictures :P
[08:33] <BuffaloSoldier> :)
[08:33] <jsgotangco> ok let's hire everaldo then
[08:34] <sabmoc> jsgotangco, so what dont you like about the computer? does it just look crappy, or doesnt match? what.. I need to know.
[08:34] <jsgotangco> desktop is so 90s
[08:34] <jsgotangco> :D
[08:35] <sabmoc> aww common
[08:35] <sabmoc> haha
[08:35] <jsgotangco> well ok make it an lcd monitor at least
[08:35] <jsgotangco> not a crt
[08:36] <sabmoc> I thought it was an lcd :P
[08:36] <sabmoc> but then again, the bagder looks like a raccoon
[08:37] <jsgotangco> ok i didnt look closer to the pic until i made it to a wallpaper
[08:37] <jsgotangco> thats a huge lcd for a laptop
[08:37] <jsgotangco> id love something like that
[08:37] <jsgotangco> hehe
[08:38] <sabmoc> so should I make the laptop smaller?
[08:38] <jsgotangco> well your lcd size should at least match with the keyboard/touchpad size
[08:39] <jsgotangco> and give the laptop some depth i guess
[08:39] <jsgotangco> it looks so thin!
[08:39] <sabmoc> ok, just a second
[08:40] <sabmoc> you mean the keyboard looks too thin, or the whole laptop?
[08:40] <jsgotangco> well the whole thing looks thin for me
[08:40] <sabmoc> ok
[08:41] <sabmoc> I'll fix it up right now
[08:41] <sabmoc> brb
[08:41] <sabmoc> to be honest I did the laptop really really quick :) so Im not surprised you dont like it
[08:42] <jsgotangco> make it a vaio or a dell
[08:42] <jsgotangco> haha
[08:43] <sabmoc> oh common, haha
[08:52] <BuffaloSoldier> guys, got to go.. take care
[08:56] <sabmoc> jsgotangco, ok, I just sent you another copy
[08:57] <jsgotangco> that was fast
[08:57] <sabmoc> well I didnt do much :P
[08:57] <jsgotangco> how about starting a wiki entry then
[08:58] <jsgotangco> you can start one yourself anyway
[08:58] <sabmoc> good idea, I've been thinking about it
[08:58] <jsgotangco> you might want to chat up with volvoguy
[08:58] <sabmoc> yeah but nobody would know about it
[08:58] <sabmoc> is he an artist?
[08:58] <jsgotangco> well
[08:58] <jsgotangco> advertise yourself then
[08:58] <jsgotangco> yeah
[08:58] <sabmoc> ok, you can be honest
[08:58] <sabmoc> does it still suck?
[08:59] <jsgotangco> this looks much better
[08:59] <jsgotangco> but it doesnt look like a laptop now
[08:59] <sabmoc> its a radioactive badger now
[08:59] <sabmoc> yes, now it looks like a flatscreen and keyboard
[08:59] <sabmoc> thats what I was originally intending
[09:00] <sabmoc> Im going to put two small buttons on the lcd screen
[09:01] <sabmoc> jsgotangco, any more suggestions? Im all ears :)
[09:01] <jsgotangco> change the box
[09:01] <jsgotangco> it looks radioactive
[09:01] <jsgotangco> hehe
[09:01] <sabmoc> hehe
[09:01] <sabmoc> ok
[09:02] <sabmoc> Im not so good will color composition
[09:02] <jsgotangco> that would do for starters i guess
[09:02] <sabmoc> as you can see! lol
[09:02] <sabmoc> well just tell me anything you can think of, changing the color of the box is quick and easy, ill do it right now
[09:02] <sabmoc> what about the badgers new color, is that better?
[09:03] <jsgotangco> ah its ok now after all i guess you are after a cartoon look right?
[09:03] <sabmoc> yeah
[09:04] <jsgotangco> when i was younger, i did draw toons but i ended up drawing more evil horned creatures rather than cute ones
[09:04] <sabmoc> haha
[09:04] <sabmoc> yeah, I used to draw lots of dragons and stuff
[09:04] <jsgotangco> good for you it was dragons
[09:04] <jsgotangco> mine was bipeds with horns and a tail
[09:05] <sabmoc> I drew some of those too
[09:05] <jsgotangco> well i did listen to heavy stuff back then
[09:24] <Kinnison> Morning
[09:24] <jsgotangco> hi
[09:25] <sabmoc> hello
[09:34] <sabmoc> jsgotangco, ping
[09:34] <jsgotangco> 1.38
[09:41] <sabmoc> jsgotangco, I sent one with slighly saner colors
[09:44] <jsgotangco> blue is ok i just thought you changed that box to a table at least :D
[09:45] <sabmoc> dont like the box eh?
[09:45] <sabmoc> ok, but its so much easier than a table
[09:45] <jsgotangco> i know
[09:46] <jsgotangco> i mean
[09:46] <jsgotangco> i just felt you just put a box there to finish it
[09:46] <jsgotangco> hehe
[09:46] <sabmoc> I did :)
[09:46] <sabmoc> but then I kind of liked it
[09:47] <jsgotangco> its your call
[09:47] <sabmoc> I'll try a table
[09:48] <sabmoc> :)
[09:48] <jsgotangco> i know
[09:48] <jsgotangco> make it a glass table
[09:48] <jsgotangco> har har har
[09:49] <sabmoc> omg
[09:49] <sabmoc> i do a box, you suggest a glass table! lol
[09:50] <jsgotangco> or a table with a victorian accent
[09:53] <sabmoc> gah!
[09:54] <sabmoc> how about a box, and i'll put for skinny boxes under neath so they look like legs
[09:54] <sabmoc> s/for/four/
[09:55] <jsgotangco> its still a box!
[09:56] <sabmoc> but.. but..
[10:00] <jsgotangco> do you use a box to put your PC on top?
[10:00] <sabmoc> yes
[10:00] <jsgotangco> suuureee
[10:05] <sabmoc> I think i'll just fix the monitor and send it in.. I have to start doing some real work
[10:08] <jsgotangco> have you seen the entries of other participants?
[10:38] <sabmoc> jsgotangco, ping
[10:38] <sabmoc> no maybe Im the only one 
[10:38] <sabmoc> haha
[10:38] <sabmoc> lets hope not
[10:38] <sabmoc> want to see the final draft?
[10:39] <sabmoc> of course you do :D
[10:40] <jsgotangco> i do?
[10:41] <sabmoc> yep
[10:41] <sabmoc> I made a glass table
[10:42] <sabmoc> it is inside the box
[10:43] <jsgotangco> haha
[10:43] <jsgotangco> well that shadow did make a difference you know
[10:46] <sabmoc> :)
[10:47] <sabmoc> a good difference I hope!
[10:47] <sabmoc> but I already changed, it, the mouth looked a bit funny, its cleaned now in my copy
[10:47] <jsgotangco> your box is off a little bit in the dimensions department
[10:49] <sabmoc> yeah, and the shading isnt right either
[10:49] <sabmoc> I'll adjust the box dimensions and the shade but im not making it a table, too much work :P
[10:51] <jsgotangco> hehe
[10:51] <jsgotangco> gee
[10:51] <jsgotangco> its almost 6pm here but the sun is still up
[10:52] <sabmoc> ah, those wonderful days 
[10:53] <jsgotangco> i guess summer is really here then
[11:08] <sabmoc> jsgotangco, you're going to hate me
[11:08] <sabmoc> haha
[11:15] <jsgotangco> haha
[11:15] <jsgotangco> what is this
[11:16] <sabmoc> what? nothing!
[11:16] <sabmoc> haha
[11:16] <sabmoc> its a badger
[11:17] <sabmoc> the box still needs to be tweeked a bit
[11:17] <jsgotangco> i know
[11:17] <jsgotangco> i dont see any difference
[11:17] <jsgotangco> youre messing up my wallpaper
[11:17] <jsgotangco> haha
[11:17] <jsgotangco> hmm
[11:17] <sabmoc> haha
[11:17] <jsgotangco> i got another email from canonical
[11:17] <jsgotangco> about the conference
[11:18] <jsgotangco> awww
[11:18] <jsgotangco> i just got lucky i got it
[11:18] <jsgotangco> after the holidays this week, i gotta fix my papers already
[11:19] <Burgundavia> lucky man
[11:19] <Burgundavia> I went to Mataro partially on my own money
[11:19] <jsgotangco> how is it like?
[11:20] <jsgotangco> i mean meeting up with these guys
[11:20] <Burgundavia> really really cool
[11:20] <Burgundavia> I saw a quote in lwn that said "You couldn't tell the difference between the canonical people and not", and that was true
[11:20] <jsgotangco> really
[11:21] <Burgundavia> almost half the people there were canonical
[11:21] <Burgundavia> most of the rest sponsored
[11:21] <jsgotangco> it would be my first time to attend such an event actually, ive been limited to mostly local linux events
[11:21] <Burgundavia> there was a a rocking atmosphere
[11:21] <jsgotangco> so im kind of jittery
[11:21] <jsgotangco> i dont know what to expect
[11:21] <Burgundavia> I should have applied for money
[11:21] <Burgundavia> I probably would have got some
[11:22] <jsgotangco> i mean 
[11:22] <jsgotangco> they opened up sponsorship for those in the immediate area
[11:22] <jsgotangco> i took the chance of applying
[11:22] <Kinnison> burger!
[11:23] <jsgotangco> i was never expecting it
[11:23] <jsgotangco> till mako emailed me a week ago
[11:23] <Burgundavia> Kinnison: hello
[11:23] <Burgundavia> Kinnison: think there is still a chance I can get some money?
[11:23] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: Dunno; you can try
[11:23] <jsgotangco> money?
[11:24] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco: you are getting sponsored to go right?
[11:24] <Burgundavia> money from Canonical
[11:24] <Burgundavia> Kinnison works for them
[11:24] <jsgotangco> yes
[11:25] <jsgotangco> is that so?
[11:25] <jsgotangco> i got an email from the travel agent
[11:25] <jsgotangco> he told me he can only fly me on the 23rd
[11:25] <jsgotangco> that gives me a whole day of doing nothing in sydney
[11:25] <jsgotangco> via Quantas
[11:26] <jsgotangco> but im coming from manila
[11:27] <Kinnison> jsgotangco: direct, or via HK or singapore?
[11:27] <jsgotangco> direct
[11:27] <Burgundavia> ah, the wonders of flying from UK --> Aus
[11:28] <jsgotangco> Kinnison: it would be direct
[11:28] <jsgotangco> Claire emailed me just now
[11:28] <Kinnison> jsgotangco: coo
[11:28] <jsgotangco> but i asked her if its ok for me to arrive a day earlier
[11:29] <jsgotangco> and leave a day later
[11:29] <jsgotangco> because thats the only schedule that Edward can get
[11:29] <jsgotangco> what he got was arrive 23 April and leave 02 May
[11:31] <jsgotangco> which gives me 2 extra days in sydney
[11:31] <jsgotangco> :(
[11:31] <Kinnison> Yeah; I'm doing arrive 24th leave 1st
[11:32] <jsgotangco> ok claire was quick
[11:32] <jsgotangco> she said it was ok
[11:34] <sabmoc> you guys are so lucky
[11:34] <jsgotangco> looks like im staying a day later hehe
[11:35] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: you gonna ask; in case?
[11:35] <sabmoc> I would sell my mother...
[11:35] <sabmoc> haha
[11:35] <Burgundavia> Kinnison: already did
[11:35] <Burgundavia> Kinnison: I would love to be the photographer
[11:40] <Kinnison> You sir are very confusing
[11:40] <Burgundavia> Kinnison: what is command to search all the packages for a specific file?
[11:41] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: installed or everything?
[11:43] <Burgundavia> Kinnison: installed
[11:43] <Kinnison> dpkg -S path
[11:43] <Kinnison> E.g. dpkg -S bin/ls
[11:43] <Burgundavia> thanks
[11:43] <Burgundavia> I was drawing a blank
[11:45] <Burgundavia> I wouldn't mind a pint
[11:45] <Burgundavia> but all the bars close in 15
[11:45] <Kinnison> run. run like the wind
[11:45] <Burgundavia> 20 minutes by car?
[11:47] <jsgotangco> Claire is efficient
[11:48] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: sux2bU
[11:48] <Burgundavia> indeed
[11:48] <Kinnison> Less probably
[11:48] <Burgundavia> Kinnison, you live in a small english village
[11:49] <Burgundavia> I live in a city of 3/4 million
[11:49] <Kinnison> In fact; if it weren't for that house there *points* I'd be able to see the pub from here
[11:49] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: and I love my village life
[11:49] <Burgundavia> hmm
[11:49] <Burgundavia> there are good points
[11:50] <Burgundavia> debian packaging is driving me mad!
[11:50] <jsgotangco> ok i'll catch you guys later im going home first and get my passport
[11:50] <Burgundavia> there are at least 4 ways of doing everything
[11:50] <jsgotangco> bye bye god bless
[11:52] <Burgundavia> Kinnison: rasputin@Burgundavia:~/Builds/gnome-system-tools/gnome-system-tools-1.2.0/src/network $ cat TODO
[11:52] <Burgundavia> - update user docs
[11:52] <Burgundavia> - drink some beer
[11:54] <Kinnison> heh
[11:55] <Burgundavia> Kinnison: programming question
[11:55] <Burgundavia> Kinnison: a file refers to @pixmaps@
[11:55] <Burgundavia> where would I find the setting for this variable?
[11:55] <Burgundavia> assuming it is not in the file itself
[11:56] <Kinnison> It'll be a .in ?
[11:56] <Burgundavia> yes
[11:56] <Kinnison> That will be a variable substituted by configure
[11:57] <Burgundavia> hmm
[11:57] <Burgundavia> ok
[11:57] <Burgundavia> thanks
[11:57] <Kinnison> you can look in configure.{ac,in} to see if it's any clearer
[11:57] <Burgundavia> ok
[12:07] <sabmoc> Burgundavia, any chance I can mail you my gpg key and get you to sign it?
[12:07] <sabmoc> or however that tricky process goes
[12:09] <Burgundavia> sabmoc: Usually, signing keys in as in person thing
[12:09] <Burgundavia> sabmoc: as, how do I know it is you
[12:09] <Burgundavia> sabmoc: people bring keys and id
[12:11] <Kinnison> sabmoc: if anyone will sign your key without meeting you physically then let me know so I can mark their key as explicitly distrusted in my trust database
[12:12] <Kinnison> sabmoc: to sign without verifying identity is a very very irresponsible thing to do which weakens the web of trust
[12:12] <Kinnison> It also devalues GPG signatures for those of us who take it seriously

[12:13] <Burgundavia> as he said
[12:13] <sabmoc> eep
[12:13] <sabmoc> ok
[12:14] <Burgundavia> usually, key signings are held at conferences
[12:14] <sabmoc> Kinnison, sorry, but Burgundavia lives close to me and actually I was hoping to meet him so that we could exchange keys and beer, which I still plan to do, so I wasnt trying to do anything tricky by asking to mail them to me.
[12:15] <sabmoc> but you're right, it would be a security breach
[12:15] <Kinnison> Also; rather than mailing your key around; you put it on the keyservers
[12:16] <Kinnison> so that they are publically available
[12:16] <sabmoc> I have mine on biglumber.com
[12:16] <Kinnison> biglumber is crap
[12:16] <sabmoc> oh :(
[12:16] <Kinnison> gpg --keyserver subkeys.pgp.net --send-keys mykeyid
[12:16] <Kinnison> (sorry, my biglumber opinion is my own and should be taken with a pinch of salt)
[12:17] <Burgundavia> bah
[12:17] <sabmoc> Im not a security buff so I'll just take your word for it
[12:17] <Burgundavia> linuxfest northwest and ubu are on the same time
[12:18] <sabmoc> Kinnison, gpg: success sending to `subkeys.pgp.net' (status=200)
[12:20] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: ubu?
[12:21] <Burgundavia> Kinnison: Ubuntudownunder
[12:22] <Burgundavia> lfnw is april 30
[12:23] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: oh u*d*u
[12:24] <Burgundavia> yah
[12:24] <Burgundavia> is 3:30 here
[12:24] <Burgundavia> am that is
[12:26] <Kinnison> Dude. Go to bed. Reset your body clock
[12:28] <Burgundavia> I mostly have
[12:28] <Burgundavia> I find it is better to stay up
[12:28] <Burgundavia> then go to bed at a normal time tomorrow
[12:30] <Kinnison> s'not good for you
[12:42] <Burgundavia> Kinnison: ?
[12:43] <Kinnison> ?
[12:43] <Burgundavia> is a line added to debian/install good enough to get a file installed? 
[12:43] <Burgundavia> this is talking about a .desktop file
[12:43] <Burgundavia> so the dir already exists
[12:46] <Kinnison> yep
[12:47] <Kinnison> I think
[12:47] <Burgundavia> ok
[12:47] <Burgundavia> that makes my life easy
[12:47] <Kinnison> test it though :-)
[12:48] <Burgundavia> oh I will
[01:07] <Burgundavia> Kinnison: got a question about changing source
[01:12] <Kinnison> mmm?
[01:14] <Burgundavia> ok
[01:14] <Burgundavia> so I want to install a .desktop file that installs it's xpm in /usr/share/pixmaps
[01:14] <Burgundavia> however, the program itself references this file for its window
[01:14] <Burgundavia> should I change the source to make it look in pixmaps?
[01:15] <Burgundavia> is that kosher?
[01:15] <Kinnison> tbh I'd change the .desktop file
[01:16] <Burgundavia> ok, but the general theme is to avoid absolute paths in .desktop files
[01:16] <Burgundavia> makes the whole changing icon for them thing a little harder
[01:17] <Kinnison> aah
[01:17] <Kinnison> Hmm
[01:17] <Kinnison> install a symbolic link?
[01:17] <Burgundavia> ah
[01:17] <Burgundavia> there doesn't seem to be any symbolic links in pixmaps
[01:17] <Burgundavia> nope, none
[01:18] <Kinnison> tbh without seeing the specific example I'm not sure what to recommend
[01:18] <Burgundavia> ya
[01:18] <Burgundavia> it is pretty easy to change it in the source, but I wondered about how kosher that was
[01:18] <Burgundavia> just a one line change
[01:20] <Kinnison> I'd probably go for that one line change then
[01:20] <Kinnison> it'll be easy to revert if you come up with a better way
[01:20] <Burgundavia> is it good programming to have your program reaching out to look for a file in this common dir?
[01:22] <Kinnison> Seems reasonable to me
[01:23] <Burgundavia> ok
[02:19] <jsgotangco> greetings
[02:27] <Burgundavia> salut
[02:27] <EricNeon> beygo home
[02:40] <jsgotangco> salut
[03:09] <jsgotangco> bye bye
[03:10] <Burgundavia> cya
[04:45] <jsgotangco> can i ask a dumb question?
[04:46] <Burgundavia> yes
[04:46] <jsgotangco> i have no idea how to do this because i use Email certs but what is a GPG key?
[04:47] <Burgundavia> a gpg key is public/private key pair that you use to sign things to prove it is you
[04:47] <Burgundavia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPG
[04:47] <jsgotangco> is that similar to an email certificate?
[04:47] <Burgundavia> what does email certs do?
[04:48] <jsgotangco> well it signs/encrypts email
[04:48] <jsgotangco> proves that its you
[04:48] <Burgundavia> gpg key is similar
[04:48] <Kinnison> Email certificates (x509 ones normally) are similar in concept to SSL certificates. They're used to authenticate and to encrypt
[04:48] <Burgundavia> you can also use gpg keys to sign archives, like svn and baz
[04:48] <Kinnison> GPG keys are a generalisation of this
[04:48] <Burgundavia> thanks Kinnison 
[04:48] <jsgotangco> ok is this like the old pgp
[04:49] <Burgundavia> yes
[04:49] <Kinnison> Indeed; GPG is an implementation of the OpenPGP standard
[04:49] <jsgotangco> ok then i have an idea what Matthias wants
[04:50] <Burgundavia> once you generate a key, expect to use it for a long while
[04:50] <Kinnison> Indeed. GPG keys are meant to be very long-lived
[04:50] <Burgundavia> in otherwords, keep it somewhere safe
[04:50] <Kinnison> mine is almost five years old and is a baby key by some people's standards
[04:51] <Burgundavia> windows boxen are usally not high on the list
[04:51] <jsgotangco> ill do that as well
[04:52] <jsgotangco> ok here's another
[04:52] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: not *everywhere*
[04:52] <jsgotangco> whats an SSH public key?
[04:52] <Kinnison> it's not waterproof
[04:52] <Kinnison> SSH keys are a method of automatically identifying you during a secure-shell transaction
[04:52] <Kinnison> they're typically used to allow you to log into another system without needing to use a passphrase
[04:52] <jsgotangco> how do i generate that?
[04:53] <Kinnison> you say 'ssh-keygen -t dsa' or 'ssh-keygen -t rsa'
[04:53] <jsgotangco> what do we usually use?
[04:53] <Kinnison> then it will create ~/.ssh/id_[dr] sa.pub which is the public key component; and ~/.ssh/id_[dr] sa which is the private component
[04:54] <Kinnison> again; it's important to keep the private components safe. Mine are on my keyfob too.
[04:54] <jsgotangco> that was fast, like talking to a bot lol
[04:54] <Kinnison> Someone should add this to some FAQ pages on the ubuntu wiki
[04:54] <Kinnison> burgey! You'll do it for me? *mwah*
[04:54] <jsgotangco> i'll do it after some research
[04:54] <Burgundavia> no
[04:54] <Burgundavia> I won't
[04:55] <Burgundavia> never
[04:55] <Burgundavia> ah maybe just a little
[04:55] <Burgundavia> but I hate the wiki
[04:55] <Burgundavia> I really do
[04:55] <jsgotangco> or just post this log
[04:55] <Kinnison> I hatesses it more
[04:55] <jsgotangco> why not?
[04:55] <jsgotangco> i like the wiki
[04:55] <jsgotangco> its a bit messed up though
[04:55] <Burgundavia> I like wikis, just not ours
[04:56] <Kinnison> same here.
[04:56] <Kinnison> It was much better when it was moinmoin
[04:56] <Kinnison> But zwiki lets us integrate the searching in with the rest of the site
[04:56] <Burgundavia> something other than this, please
[04:56] <Burgundavia> yes, that is cool about zwiki
[04:56] <Burgundavia> it just needs a whole pile more features
[04:56] <jsgotangco> how come we intend to standardise on moin then
[04:57] <Burgundavia> moinmoin is a wiki
[04:57] <Burgundavia> moin is a markup style that came from former
[04:57] <jsgotangco> yes so i read
[04:58] <Kinnison> So we're standardising on moin markup in zwiki y'see
[04:59] <Burgundavia> yes, as he said
[04:59] <jsgotangco> wait, what do i need to do this ssh public key and the gpg key?
[05:04] <Kinnison> Commonly you give the ssh public key to someone who is setting up an account for you on a computer
[05:07] <jsgotangco> ok i think i get it now i can sleep soundly before i leave tommorow for boracay
[06:44] <Burgundavia> salut enrico
[06:44] <enrico> Hi!
[06:45] <abelli> bonne soir
[06:45] <enrico> abelli: bonne soir
[07:08] <Kinnison> ciao abelli 
[07:22] <abelli> Kinnison: ciao Danielone
[08:31] <sm> hello Burgundavia, what are the top 3 problems with the wiki ?
[08:31] <Burgundavia> parenting
[08:31] <Burgundavia> inflexible
[08:31] <Burgundavia> ie. parenting is inflexible
[08:31] <sm> how so
[08:31] <Burgundavia> one page one parent
[08:32] <Burgundavia> one page can and should belong to multiple groups/categories/parents
[08:32] <Burgundavia> ie
[08:32] <Burgundavia> a howto
[08:32] <Burgundavia> is both a howto
[08:32] <Burgundavia> and possibly documentation in progress
[08:32] <Burgundavia> sm: might I ask who you are?
[08:33] <sm> sure, I'm Simon, one of the volunteers with ubunti wiki admin access, and zwiki author
[08:33] <sm> hi
[08:33] <sm> pages can have multiple parents
[08:33] <Burgundavia> ah
[08:34] <sm> I think people are seeing the reparent form at the bottom of the page, but not the reparent form in backlinks (when you click title)
[08:34] <sm> and certainly not the zwiki docs, god help us :)
[08:35] <Burgundavia> hmm
[08:35] <Burgundavia> I would then say, those need to be merged
[08:35] <Burgundavia> a more flexible method of parenting editing
[08:36] <Burgundavia> move that stuff to the main page 
[08:36] <Burgundavia> part of having 2 parents is visually showing that
[08:36] <Burgundavia> currently it shows one
[08:36] <sm> really ? only one appears above the title ?
[08:36] <Burgundavia> currently yes
[08:37] <sm> ah, I think that might be a bug with the zwiki_plone skin
[08:37] <Burgundavia> hmm
[08:37] <Burgundavia> ok
[08:37] <sm> if you alt =, it should show both
[08:37] <sm> do you have the name of a page with two, I'll check
[08:38] <Burgundavia> just a sec and I will find one
[08:38] <sm> http://ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WikiTips tells more about alt = 
[08:39] <Burgundavia> ok
[08:39] <Burgundavia> sounds good
[08:39] <Burgundavia> related to that
[08:39] <Burgundavia> the lots of little globe gives me the sense that there are lots of directories/pages above me
[08:40] <Burgundavia> but that may be a ubuntu wiki specific thing
[08:41] <sm> that is an old plone css + firefox display bug, I think
[08:41] <sm> I see it often, but I'm not sure how to reproduce
[08:42] <Burgundavia> I see it on every page
[08:42] <Burgundavia> next topic of dislike
[08:42] <Burgundavia> history
[08:42] <Burgundavia> compare and contrast:
[08:42] <Burgundavia> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Beijing_Capital_International_Airport&curid=291328&action=history
[08:42] <Burgundavia> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WikiTips/diff
[08:43] <sm> ok.. yes, our diff display is primitive and needs some love
[08:43] <sm> noted
[08:43] <Burgundavia> related to that
[08:43] <Burgundavia> quickrevert
[08:44] <Burgundavia> you don't see it on that, but admins on WP have a little button that reverts the last entry to the 2nd to last
[08:44] <sm> we have that, no ?
[08:45] <sm> oh, not enabled on ubuntu wiki
[08:45] <Burgundavia> ok
[08:45] <sm> do you mean like revert all successive.. at http://zwiki.org/TestPage/diff ?
[08:45] <Burgundavia> no, it reverts the last change
[08:45] <Burgundavia> it would be up with history and backlinks
[08:46] <Burgundavia> very fast button
[08:47] <sm> I try to reduce ui clutter, so we have always had it in the diff form
[08:47] <sm> do you think all ubuntu wiki pages should have this, accessible to any member ? and right on the page ?
[08:47] <Burgundavia> this would only appear for certain people when they are logged in
[08:49] <Burgundavia> there is a lot of dead space that is wasted on the wiki, IMHO
[08:49] <Burgundavia> especially vertically
[08:49] <sm> I agree
[08:50] <sm> that's why I always switch to the non-plone skin
[08:50] <Burgundavia> but we need to fix the default
[08:50] <Burgundavia> side bars are great
[08:50] <sm> you like those eh
[08:50] <sm> bah
[08:50] <Burgundavia> nearly every website does them because they work
[08:50] <Burgundavia> you just have to do them right
[08:51] <sm> yes
[08:51] <Burgundavia> I personally happen to like the WP layout
[08:51] <Burgundavia> I find it is clean and functional
[08:51] <sm> what would you do to the default (plone) wiki skin to make it better ?
[08:51] <sm> space-wise ?
[08:51] <Burgundavia> merge the 2 tabs
[08:52] <Burgundavia> possibly place the 1st row of tabs in a sidbar?
[08:52] <Burgundavia> remove the gap between the bottom of the 1st row of tabs and the 2nd
[08:52] <Burgundavia> generally cut the blank space down to a minimum
[08:53] <Burgundavia> you can do that without getting crowded
[08:55] <sm> ok, that's changing the standard plone layout
[08:55] <Burgundavia> that is fine
[08:55] <sm> which I have no problem with, but I basically only have authority to change stuff inside the brown box, if that
[08:55] <Burgundavia> hmm
[08:55] <sm> I know ubuntu recently held a redesign contents for the overall plone skin
[08:55] <sm> did you see ?
[08:55] <Burgundavia> well, inside the wiki itself is not the issue
[08:55] <sm> (contest)
[08:55] <Burgundavia> yes I saw it
[08:56] <Burgundavia> I saw pretty stuff and very little in the way of spacing decisions
[08:56] <Burgundavia> I am holding my breath
[08:56] <Burgundavia> not that I object to pretty stuff
[08:56] <sm> there's no webmaster right now, afaik
[08:56] <Burgundavia> hmm
[08:56] <sm> which makes progress kind of slow :/
[08:56] <Burgundavia> some minor points
[08:56] <Burgundavia> watchlists --> think subscribe, but within the wiki
[08:57] <Burgundavia> really really useful
[08:57] <sm> showing pages changed since last visit in recent changes ?
[08:57] <Burgundavia> watchlists shows a subsection choosen by you
[08:57] <sm> oh
[08:57] <Burgundavia> you watch/subscribe to them
[08:58] <sm> recent changes for a subset of pages
[08:58] <Burgundavia> yes
[08:58] <Burgundavia> then it is on one page, and you view at your leisure
[08:58] <Burgundavia> if you can tie that in with email for those who want, great
[08:59] <Burgundavia> even better, and very blue sky,would be rss feeds
[08:59] <sm> well, we have experimental rss feeds in WikiWishlist
[08:59] <sm> and we have email subscription to pages of your choice
[08:59] <Burgundavia> cool
[08:59] <Burgundavia> if you could unify the concept, that would be cool
[08:59] <sm> but we don't have a recent changes listing of pages of your choice.. noted
[09:00] <Burgundavia> basically make it one big list, viewed however you want
[09:00] <sm> people say it's useful, so it must not be just featuritis.. right ?
[09:00] <Burgundavia> really easy to administer and think about
[09:00] <Burgundavia> this isn;t a new feature, just extending an old one
[09:00] <sm> I try to work on the stuff 80% of users will use
[09:00] <Burgundavia> and the 10 largest wikis in the world use it
[09:00] <sm> really ?
[09:00] <Burgundavia> all of WP uses watchlist
[09:01] <Burgundavia> have you looked at Mediawiki?
[09:01] <sm> yes, periodically
[09:01] <sm> I find their recent changes over-confusing for most sues
[09:01] <sm> uses
[09:01] <sm> but I'll look at their watchlists again
[09:01] <Burgundavia> most people use watchlists
[09:01] <Burgundavia> you will need to create an account
[09:01] <Burgundavia> watchlists are private to the specific account
[09:02] <Burgundavia> on the parenting/categories thing, have you seen categories in wp?
[09:02] <Burgundavia> I like the idea, but there are some limitations
[09:02] <Burgundavia> like being able to sort the category the way you want it
[09:02] <Burgundavia> either by the user on the fly
[09:02] <Burgundavia> or the editor beforehand
[09:03] <sm> ?
[09:03] <sm> limitations of wp's categories ?
[09:03] <Burgundavia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Airports
[09:03] <Burgundavia> sorted purely by alphabetically order
[09:04] <sm> ah yes
[09:04] <Burgundavia> this is very blue sky of course, but meta data to sort by
[09:04] <sm> and it knows what's in what category because of the Category: pagename tag in the text ?
[09:04] <Burgundavia> generally, what wikis really really need is easy ways of sorting data
[09:05] <sm> just like WikiBadges
[09:05] <sm> we do that
[09:05] <Burgundavia> categories are added to pages
[09:05] <Burgundavia> [[Cateogry:foo] ] 
[09:05] <Burgundavia> comme ca
[09:05] <sm> yes
[09:05] <Burgundavia> like any other link
[09:05] <Burgundavia> oh, that brings me to interlang stuff
[09:05] <sm> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiBadge
[09:06] <sm> ubuntu wiki can do that of course, except, to get a nice in-page listing like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Airports requires dtml enabled, which isn't allowed
[09:06] <sm> but there is a plan to enable safe moin-style scripting which will enable it again
[09:07] <Burgundavia> actually, the page listing is generated by a php script doing a database query
[09:07] <sm> oh.. not a wiki page
[09:07] <sm> ok that's easy
[09:07] <Burgundavia> the page itself is a wiki, but go and edit that airport category
[09:07] <Burgundavia> take a look
[09:07] <sm> if people want to put category markers on pages, I can add the index
[09:07] <sm> but using hierarchy seems easier so far
[09:08] <Burgundavia> but we need either parenting or categoires
[09:08] <Burgundavia> not both
[09:08] <Burgundavia> can we fold the 2 concepts into one/
[09:08] <Burgundavia> ?
[09:08] <sm> possibly
[09:09] <Burgundavia> they are both trying to solve the same high-level problem
[09:09] <sm> first, I tend to use parenting as the primary organizer, because it's quicker, and occasionally still use wikibadges/category markers for cross-cutting categorization
[09:10] <sm> second: http://zwiki.d2m.at/ZPT/FrontPage seems possible to be a way to unify the two
[09:10] <sm> (facets)
[09:10] <Burgundavia> what are the primary advantages of having parentage that is not covered by categories
[09:10] <Burgundavia> facets, uh no
[09:11] <Burgundavia> way too busy
[09:11] <sm> disregard that ui
[09:11] <sm> but back to the present - advantages of parenting vs. categories ?
[09:12] <sm> you can theory represent that same parent hierarchy using just category markers
[09:13] <sm> if you work very hard at keeping it consistent
[09:13] <Burgundavia> yes
[09:13] <Burgundavia> all wikis tend to chaos at the edges
[09:13] <sm> because hierarchical organization is so familiar to us, I find it's good to have it built in and let the software do more of the work
[09:14] <sm> it's a (entirely optional) way to bring some order to the traditional wiki soup
[09:14] <skyrider> Hey guys! Few minutes ago I've looked at https://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/local page and I saw completely screwed russian letters in "Russian" section of that page. When I looked at that page last time (about a month ago) - everything was fine. Can you somehow fix it? I can't fix it because I don't have enough permissions on site. Can somebody fix Russian text or maybe somebody can give me access for modification of that page and I'll fix that my
[09:15] <sm> I haven't seen category markers do that quite so well, though wikipedia's are good
[09:15] <Burgundavia> well, if we are hosting docs out of it, we need somethingmore akin to WP that c2
[09:15] <Burgundavia> sm: There was a lot of talk about WP's categories and how to do them
[09:16] <Burgundavia> the advantage we have is we can impose order on the wiki
[09:16] <Burgundavia> WP anarchy you cannot impose order very easily
[09:16] <skyrider> sivang: alive?
[09:16] <Burgundavia> unless you do as I do with airports which is simply be the first with the plan
[09:16] <Burgundavia> we can say
[09:16] <Burgundavia> all howtos under howtos
[09:16] <Burgundavia> and all gnome under gnome
[09:16] <Burgundavia> etc.
[09:17] <sm> the parenting feature is really equivalent to having a ParentCategory: parentpages on every page
[09:17] <Burgundavia> to be honest
[09:17] <sm> but it's moved out of the page body, into the ui, and is more convenient to manage
[09:17] <sm> imho
[09:17] <Burgundavia> yes, that is where WP falls down
[09:17] <Burgundavia> but it doesn't have to be that way
[09:18] <Burgundavia> it can easily be categories in the ui
[09:18] <Burgundavia> but don't make it an extra click if at all possible
[09:18] <Burgundavia> that is what is so horrid about the history
[09:18] <Burgundavia> the sheer cost of the clicks to view everything
[09:20] <sm> can you just clarify that last point.. where are there too many clicks to view a zwiki page's history ?
[09:20] <Burgundavia> to go back in the history "costs" me a click for each edit
[09:21] <Burgundavia> you will notice, if you spend any time with me, is I talk a lot about "cost of clicks" and how to reduce them
[09:21] <sm> I definitely relate to that
[09:21] <Burgundavia> or time costs in general, for that matter
[09:22] <sm> I started zwiki because I didn't like the extra click to add a comment on c2 :)
[09:22] <sm> slow machine, etc.
[09:22] <Burgundavia> another big then in wp
[09:22] <Burgundavia> seperation of content and chatter
[09:22] <Burgundavia> via talk pages
[09:22] <sm> I have gone back and forth on that
[09:22] <Burgundavia> this is one of the key things that is needed for presentation stuff
[09:22] <sm> I see it works for wp
[09:22] <Burgundavia> for presentation stuff, it is needed
[09:23] <Burgundavia> for other stuff, not so much
[09:24] <sm> ok I see what you mean about wp, it lists the diffs
[09:24] <Burgundavia> hmm
[09:25] <Burgundavia> blue sky, but a dhtml foo thing there would be killer
[09:25] <sm> ?
[09:25] <Burgundavia> for the diffs, to reduce the cost of the clicks
[09:25] <Burgundavia> but that is very blue sky
[09:26] <sm> ah
[09:26] <sm> would be great, but not priority for me
[09:27] <sm> I'm nailing down core stuff this year
[09:27] <Burgundavia> ya
[09:27] <sm> "no new features!" :)
[09:27] <Burgundavia> blue sky is great to think about though
[09:27] <Burgundavia> anyway
[09:27] <sm> definitely
[09:27] <sm> well I'd better wind down here.. thanks for this input
[09:27] <Burgundavia> get rid of camel case
[09:27] <sm> it's an option
[09:27] <Burgundavia> looks better, IMHO
[09:27] <sm> if you want to raise any of these thing on one of the lists to get wider consensus, that would be good
[09:28] <Burgundavia> ok
[09:28] <Burgundavia> not really a priority until post hoary though
[09:28] <sm> I can change a lot of stuff if I get approval from the community
[09:28] <sm> ok
[09:28] <sm> are you working on that ?
[09:28] <Burgundavia> hoary?
[09:28] <sm> yes
[09:28] <Burgundavia> packaging with MOTU and docs
[09:28] <sm> great
[09:29] <Burgundavia> talk again soon
[09:29] <Burgundavia> it was good to talk about this with someone
[09:31] <sm> likewise, see you
[09:42] <sm> hy skyrider
[09:42] <skyrider> sm: hi
[09:42] <sm> I don't have authority to give you access, but maybe I can fix it
[09:43] <sm> see if you can paste the letters here, or will gaim mangle them..
[09:43] <sm> what should be after #ubuntu-ru ?
[09:43] <sm> I see: 2 A5B8
[09:44] <skyrider> sm: I'll write small html page with all russian text.
[09:44] <skyrider> sm: all those 2 A5B8 is complete garbage :(
[09:44] <sm> ok.. if you paste at http://ubuntulinux.org/wiki/SandBox I can paste it into the support page
[09:44] <sm> or anywhere
[09:45] <skyrider> sm: ok
[10:00] <Burgundavia> enrico: read backlog for wiki discussion with sm
[10:06] <enrico> Burgundavia: I don't have backlog.  Trying with the irclog.workaround.org
[10:07] <enrico> Would you like opinions on something specific?
[10:07] <Burgundavia> nope, just letting you know
[10:08] <enrico> ok, thanks!
[10:08] <sm> I added a summary of issues to WikiWishlist
[10:08] <sm> quick one enrico: can we enable revert button for all logged in members ?
[10:08] <sm> Burgundavia: why do you need that anyway ?
[10:08] <sm> I only use it for undoing spam
[10:09] <enrico> sm: I see no problems in giving freedom to wiki users
[10:10] <enrico> sm: what would that be needed for?
[10:10] <sm> well if there's no problem, I'll just enable it
[10:10] <sm> it's a standard feature
[10:10] <Burgundavia> sm: for quick revert of vandals
[10:11] <enrico> Burgundavia: do we have vandals?
[10:11] <sm> we don't really have vandals though, do we ?
[10:11] <Burgundavia> we will
[10:11] <Burgundavia> all wikis do
[10:11] <sm> but this is members-only
[10:11] <sm> alas
[10:11] <sm> which so far seems to prevent it
[10:11] <sm> but why not enable it
[10:12] <enrico> Burgundavia: I think the world looks nicer if you expect people to be fine, especially when they are already being fine
[10:12] <enrico> sm: I see you have a problem with multiple parents
[10:12] <enrico> that is, you complain people don't get it
[10:12] <sm> *I* don't :)
[10:12] <enrico> In fact, I think that feature is really hard to see.  i did have to ask you as well
[10:13] <sm> well I'm seeing that they don't, and I see why.. I hope I'm not complaining
[10:13] <enrico> For example, you manage parents clicking on something called "backlinks": I'd never expect that
[10:13] <sm> I think it would seem more natural if you had been using zwiki all along
[10:13] <sm> (obviously)
[10:14] <sm> there used to be no quick form at the bottom
[10:14] <enrico> And the "reparent" button gives you the idea that you have only one parent: if you had more than once, what are you doing with that reparenting function?  Removing all other parents?
[10:14] <Burgundavia> the great thing about software, is that we get used to the quirks of the ones that we use regularly
[10:14] <sm> and reparenting fit naturally with backlinks, because the pages that link to you are often the ones you want to be a parent
[10:14] <enrico> sm: Yes, it fits from the POV of the developer's brain model of the wiki, but not for the user's
[10:15] <sm> so clicking on the page title is really the primary form for "page relationships"
[10:15] <enrico> sm: you could have a "parents" button that would show the backlinks as a convenience list to pick from
[10:15] <sm> which I think fits with original wiki
[10:15] <sm> yes
[10:15] <enrico> that would also fit in the mental model of the users
[10:16] <sm> do you mean change the "backlinks" tab to "parents", or duplicate it ?
[10:16] <enrico> Duplicate it, even
[10:16] <enrico> but that would be too many buttons
[10:17] <enrico> And how about changing the "reparent" in the quick form to "add parent" ?
[10:17] <enrico> That would make it clear that multiple parents are there
[10:17] <sm> because actually you can't click on the title in plone skin, you must click backlinks
[10:17] <sm> it doesn't add parent, it replaces whatever you add
[10:17] <sm> whatever you had
[10:18] <enrico> Yes, but how about changing the function of it?
[10:18] <enrico> That'd make it very quick to add parent as "categories"
[10:18] <sm> yes it's a thought.. I tried to make that form do what would be least confusing to most users
[10:18] <enrico> and then you could delete parents maybe with a button next to the parent names at the top of the page
[10:18] <sm> nb mouse over it for help
[10:19] <sm> too many buttons & controls is a problem you see
[10:19] <enrico> Yes, I know
[10:19] <enrico> A "manage parents" button to the right side of the page, vertically aligned with the parents?
[10:20] <sm> really I'd like to simplify that plone skin a lot
[10:21] <sm> which would allow that kind of experiment
[10:21] <sm> do you think anyone'd mind ?
[10:21] <enrico> sm
[10:22] <enrico> how about this: replace "reparent" with "add parent", then allow to and add remove parents in the "Edit wiki page"
[10:22] <enrico> I turned off my brain, that that's where my hand go when I had the intention of removing parents
[10:22] <enrico> s/that that's/and that's/
[10:22] <sm> in edit
[10:23] <enrico> sm: to simplify the plone skin you should coordinate with jdub and the effort to change the look of the website
[10:23] <enrico> I know they made a contest for a new look
[10:23] <sm> jdub ? ok
[10:23] <sm> what's jdub's job title ?
[10:23] <sm> does it include webmaster ?
[10:23] <enrico> sm: you better add mako in Cc, though.  jdub is sometimes unresponsive
[10:23] <sm> so is mako :(
[10:23] <sm> so are well all of course
[10:23] <enrico> I'm not sure about jdub's title, but he's the one that handled the website look contest 
[10:23] <sm> not complaining, mako
[10:24] <mako> sm: :)
[10:24] <mako> enrico: the website look contest has been passed off to henrik omma
[10:24] <sm> aha
[10:24] <enrico> sm: so, that's your man :)
[10:25] <enrico> mako: thanks
[10:25] <sm> does henrik's job title include webmaster :)
[10:25] <mako> i'm not sure
[10:25] <mako> we don't really have job titles here
[10:25] <sm> I want to talk to the person who can tell me yes do stuff or no don't :)
[10:25] <enrico> Burgundavia: try DocteamPostHoary: that shows two parents
[10:25] <mako> sm: i have been rather unresponsive this last week.. i sort of spilled water on my laptop last wendesday
[10:26] <sm> yes, no problem
[10:26] <sm> you and I are still going to chat about zwiki upgrades some time ?
[10:26] <enrico> mako: water?  You're getting rusty my friend.  A year ago you'd spill any sort of liquid on it, EXCEPT water :)
[10:26] <mako> sm: what exactly do you need right now? to upgrade teh wiki?
[10:26] <Burgundavia> mako: I saw that on your blog
[10:26] <sm> yes.. a one-time upgrade would be helpful
[10:26] <mako> enrico: olive oil!
[10:27] <Burgundavia> Kinnison: go to bed!
[10:27] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: tempting
[10:27] <Kinnison> it's only 21:27 though
[10:27] <sm> I'd also like to know the process for future upgrades, and if possible get everyone's approval for it to happen on a regular schedule
[10:27] <sm> but a quick upgrade today would fix several problems
[10:27] <mako> sm: i don't think it's going to actually involve me
[10:27] <sm> ok
[10:27] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: I've only been up 14 hours. Not like you
[10:27] <mako> sm: but i'm happy to help poke the necessary people for you
[10:28] <mako> sm: i don't have access or knowledge about any of the component parts
[10:28] <sm> ok, who to poke ?
[10:28] <mako> sm: what sort of access do you need to upgrade zwiki?
[10:28] <mako> sm: BTW, i appreciate your patience on this
[10:28] <sm> np
[10:29] <Burgundavia> Kinnison: I have now been up 21
[10:29] <sm> simplest and best from my point of view: once a month  I ssh to the server, I pull the latest with darcs (preserving ubuntu-specific tweaks), I restart zope
[10:30] <sm> or: every so often I ping someone at canonical to ssh in and do darcs pull
[10:31] <sm> or: every so often I ping someone to install a tarball I've prepared from a ubuntu-zwiki darcs repo which I manage locally 
[10:31] <sm> (in decreasing order of efficiency)
[10:31] <enrico> sm: you mentioned "facets" some time ago.  That is enough for me to love you
[10:33] <sm> mako: last time I discussed this with someone there was blather about not wanting to install darcs on the server
[10:33] <mako> lets try for the second one
[10:33] <mako> ok.. lets try the third one :)
[10:33] <sm> let's try for the second ! :)
[10:33] <mako> alright.. :)
[10:33] <sm> I can make tarballs if necessary, but it's waste work
[10:33] <sm> and I'll do it less often
[10:34] <mako> yeah.. working with the admins and getting accounts has proved problematic in the past
[10:35] <sm> the main thing is to get contact with someone who can and will do upgrades
[10:35] <sm> how it's done is not so important I guess
[10:46] <mako> sm alright, i think elmo is going to the one we're going to need to deal with
[10:46] <mako> but we should check with henrik first to make sure he doesn't haev the power to do this
[10:46] <mako> when he is on IRC he is hno73
[10:46] <sm> ok.. I've chatted with elmo briefly
[10:46] <sm> thx
[10:51] <mako> let me know if anybody needs prodding
[10:55] <sm> thx
[10:55] <sm> later all !
[11:02] <skyrider> sm-afk: alive?
[11:02] <skyrider> sm-afk: I've fixed that page. Waiting for you...
[11:06] <sm-afk> skyrider: just copying the html from sandbox.. I don't need these class="reference" do I ?
[11:07] <sm-afk> the original doesn't have them
[11:07] <skyrider> where did you see class="reference"???
[11:07] <skyrider> I've written in in pure ReST
[11:07] <sm-afk> maybe there's one in the original
[11:07] <sm-afk> ok.. I copied html from the rendered wiki page, since I need html
[11:08] <sm-afk> no problem
[11:08] <skyrider> ok. BTW, I think class="reference" defines small globe picture in CSS for links.
[11:09] <sm-afk> ah 
[11:11] <sm-afk> better ?
[11:11] <sabmoc> what is a good reasource for learning to customize a wiki?
[11:12] <sm-afk> double globe, fixed
[11:13] <sm-afk> sabmoc: different people mean different things by that.. you mean..
[11:14] <skyrider> sm-afk: looks good. Thank you very much.
[11:15] <sm-afk> glad to help
[11:33] <sabmoc> sm-afk, the Local Canadian team just got its own website
[11:34] <sabmoc> sm-afk, I haven't run a wiki before, and we're going to need to customize it.
[11:34] <sm-afk> sabmoc: a zwiki ?
[11:34] <sabmoc> sm-afk, yes, matthias set it up for us just today
[11:34] <sm-afk> cool
[11:35] <sabmoc> yeah :)
[11:35] <sm-afk> http://zwiki.org , administrator's guide, QuickReference, and #zwiki
[11:35] <sm-afk> let's talk more later
[11:35] <sabmoc> sm-afk, ok 
[11:35] <sabmoc> thank you
[11:35] <sm-afk> np