=== jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:49] greetings === Kinnison [~dsilvers@haddenham.pepperfish.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:27] jsgotangco, hey dude [03:28] alex hey you still awake haha [03:28] its only 6pm [03:29] of course im awake [03:29] oh you already slept then [03:29] im alaways awake >_> [03:29] i thought you were still in zombie mode [03:29] no, drank some holy potion and im ok now [03:29] hope its not moonshine [03:30] thats too holy for me [03:30] i prefer beer === Kinnison [~dsilvers@haddenham.pepperfish.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:30] im so bored here at work i wanna go home its only 10:30 am but the holiday feeling is already in me [03:31] everyday is like that for me [03:31] well we're having some catholic holidays starting tommorow till sunday [03:31] ah cool === sabmoc is back (gone 05:31:20) [03:32] im going to draw for a bit, ill be back later [03:32] k see ya === EricNeon [~ericneon@203.148.3.94] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:44] any body could build a web site as "www.chubuntu.org" for Chinese team of ubuntu? [03:47] hi eric [03:48] you might want to check out the wiki pages for details on registering a domain with the ubuntu name [03:48] but if your local team is already established, you can always request ubuntu for an ubuntu-cc.org domain [03:48] i think for china, it might be ubuntu-cn [03:48] ubuntu.cn.org i believe [03:48] wait should be ubuntu-cn.org [03:49] its best you consult the wiki first [03:49] ok [03:49] ubuntu-cn [03:50] when could web site begin? [03:50] just "www.ubuntu-cn.org" [03:51] you have to consult matthias urlichs for that [03:51] https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MatthiasUrlichs [03:53] I had find it ,but I can't see it [03:54] let me retry [04:25] EricNeon, hi, are you thinking of starting a local team for china? [04:26] I am in the process of starting a Canadian team [04:26] EricNeon, you can see our page here, if you have any questions let me know https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CanadianTeam [04:39] you will fail! [04:39] joke [04:39] hehhe [04:59] ^ [04:59] hello [04:59] sabmoc [05:00] I will start a Chinese Team for ubuntu [05:02] now ,we had some members, for example Hiweed Leng,Carlos Liu, Huahua Easthero [05:05] just make a table [05:05] ill show you later [05:06] i gotta eat first [05:06] jsgotangco, where are you from? [05:07] I am in Shanghai now [05:07] I gotta eat too === EricNeon [~ericneon@203.148.3.94] has left #ubuntu-doc [""] === EricNeon [~ericneon@203.148.3.94] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:17] hi EricNeon im here [05:18] EricNeon, I was just in Shenzhen about a month ago [05:48] I am be back [05:48] lol~ [05:49] nice to meet you sabmoc [05:49] many of my friend are in Canada [05:55] EricNeon, nice to meet you also [05:55] I'll be back in one moment [05:55] :) [05:59] I must re compile xchat === sabmoc [~alex@d154-20-136-124.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:10] hi === EricNeon [~ericneon@203.148.3.94] has joined #ubuntu-doc === cc [~cc@byte.fedora] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:44] EricNeon hi i am in Manila at the moment [06:44] i just came from lunch [06:44] hoho [06:45] I had lunch one hour ago [06:46] what are you do in Manila? [06:48] I am looking for any body who is love ubuntu in chinese [06:51] EricNeon: i am of chinese descent but unfortunately, i was not trained in mandarin at home [06:51] my grandfather came from guangdong [06:51] ohmy english is so pool [06:52] :) [06:53] heh its ok man youre cool [06:53] I am realy ZheJiang ShaoXing [06:53] I work and living at Shanghai [06:54] hello i am jerome [06:54] nice to meet you [06:55] me too [06:55] now ,I have to working [06:55] see you ! [06:55] me too talk to you later === Burgundavia [~Burgundav@S0106000bdbb5820d.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:30] Burg hi [07:34] salut === sabmoc [~alex@d154-20-136-124.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:49] hello [07:56] hi [07:59] salut all [08:01] salut [08:09] HI guys [08:10] I finished my badger today :P ..im just watching some tv [08:10] how does it look like now? [08:10] want to see it? [08:11] sure [08:13] sounds good [08:13] Hi Burgundavia [08:14] shall I send it to you also? [08:14] jsgotangco, sent [08:15] yes === BuffaloSoldier [~user@218.111.208.82] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:17] the breezy badger? [08:17] i thought it was benny badger [08:17] the last i heard it was breezy [08:17] yep thats what I heard [08:19] jsgotangco, so what do you think, any suggestions? [08:19] on the UbuntuDownUnder wiki, it was "bendy badger" [08:19] hmmm [08:21] well the announcement for the mascot competition says breezy, but it doesnt matter I can just edit that text and change to to whatever I need to. [08:21] i got breezy from here http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=20381 [08:22] BuffaloSoldier, I dont think I have introduced myself yet, hello [08:22] can anyone log into the wiki i get authentication failures [08:22] sabmoc: me too.. hi there [08:22] BuffaloSoldier, my names Alex, I'm in Canada [08:23] sabmoc: I'm Firdaus from Malaysia [08:23] nice to meet you [08:26] sabmoc: nice work [08:28] Burgundavia, have any suggestions? [08:28] what are you guys up to? [08:28] it seems the wiki isnt working at the moment [08:29] sabmoc: to be honest, I liked the badger without the computer [08:29] sabmoc: simpler and cleaner [08:29] BuffaloSoldier, Im just showing them a picture I did for the mascot competition [08:29] sabmoc: but the new colour is nice [08:29] Ubuntu is going to have a mascot? :) nice [08:29] Burgundavia, yeah Im not so sure about the computer [08:30] ditch the desktop [08:30] but then what do I put infront of him? he is positioned to be looking at something [08:31] I think I might have to scrap it and start again. [08:33] BuffaloSoldier, well hopefully some real artist are also making some pictures :P [08:33] :) [08:33] ok let's hire everaldo then [08:34] jsgotangco, so what dont you like about the computer? does it just look crappy, or doesnt match? what.. I need to know. [08:34] desktop is so 90s [08:34] :D [08:35] aww common [08:35] haha [08:35] well ok make it an lcd monitor at least [08:35] not a crt [08:36] I thought it was an lcd :P [08:36] but then again, the bagder looks like a raccoon [08:37] ok i didnt look closer to the pic until i made it to a wallpaper [08:37] thats a huge lcd for a laptop [08:37] id love something like that [08:37] hehe [08:38] so should I make the laptop smaller? [08:38] well your lcd size should at least match with the keyboard/touchpad size [08:39] and give the laptop some depth i guess [08:39] it looks so thin! [08:39] ok, just a second [08:40] you mean the keyboard looks too thin, or the whole laptop? [08:40] well the whole thing looks thin for me [08:40] ok [08:41] I'll fix it up right now [08:41] brb [08:41] to be honest I did the laptop really really quick :) so Im not surprised you dont like it [08:42] make it a vaio or a dell [08:42] haha [08:43] oh common, haha [08:52] guys, got to go.. take care [08:56] jsgotangco, ok, I just sent you another copy [08:57] that was fast === sabmoc wishes ubuntu had an art channel [08:57] well I didnt do much :P [08:57] how about starting a wiki entry then [08:58] you can start one yourself anyway [08:58] good idea, I've been thinking about it [08:58] you might want to chat up with volvoguy [08:58] yeah but nobody would know about it [08:58] is he an artist? [08:58] well [08:58] advertise yourself then [08:58] yeah [08:58] ok, you can be honest [08:58] does it still suck? [08:59] this looks much better [08:59] but it doesnt look like a laptop now [08:59] its a radioactive badger now [08:59] yes, now it looks like a flatscreen and keyboard [08:59] thats what I was originally intending [09:00] Im going to put two small buttons on the lcd screen [09:01] jsgotangco, any more suggestions? Im all ears :) [09:01] change the box [09:01] it looks radioactive [09:01] hehe [09:01] hehe [09:01] ok [09:02] Im not so good will color composition [09:02] that would do for starters i guess [09:02] as you can see! lol [09:02] well just tell me anything you can think of, changing the color of the box is quick and easy, ill do it right now [09:02] what about the badgers new color, is that better? [09:03] ah its ok now after all i guess you are after a cartoon look right? [09:03] yeah [09:04] when i was younger, i did draw toons but i ended up drawing more evil horned creatures rather than cute ones [09:04] haha [09:04] yeah, I used to draw lots of dragons and stuff [09:04] good for you it was dragons [09:04] mine was bipeds with horns and a tail [09:05] I drew some of those too [09:05] well i did listen to heavy stuff back then === Cturtle [~Cturtle__@82.161.239.194] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:24] Morning [09:24] hi [09:25] hello [09:34] jsgotangco, ping [09:34] 1.38 [09:41] jsgotangco, I sent one with slighly saner colors [09:44] blue is ok i just thought you changed that box to a table at least :D [09:45] dont like the box eh? [09:45] ok, but its so much easier than a table [09:45] i know [09:46] i mean [09:46] i just felt you just put a box there to finish it [09:46] hehe [09:46] I did :) [09:46] but then I kind of liked it [09:47] its your call [09:47] I'll try a table [09:48] :) [09:48] i know [09:48] make it a glass table [09:48] har har har [09:49] omg [09:49] i do a box, you suggest a glass table! lol [09:50] or a table with a victorian accent [09:53] gah! [09:54] how about a box, and i'll put for skinny boxes under neath so they look like legs [09:54] s/for/four/ [09:55] its still a box! [09:56] but.. but.. [10:00] do you use a box to put your PC on top? [10:00] yes [10:00] suuureee [10:05] I think i'll just fix the monitor and send it in.. I have to start doing some real work [10:08] have you seen the entries of other participants? [10:38] jsgotangco, ping [10:38] no maybe Im the only one [10:38] haha [10:38] lets hope not [10:38] want to see the final draft? [10:39] of course you do :D [10:40] i do? [10:41] yep [10:41] I made a glass table [10:42] it is inside the box [10:43] haha [10:43] well that shadow did make a difference you know [10:46] :) [10:47] a good difference I hope! [10:47] but I already changed, it, the mouth looked a bit funny, its cleaned now in my copy [10:47] your box is off a little bit in the dimensions department [10:49] yeah, and the shading isnt right either [10:49] I'll adjust the box dimensions and the shade but im not making it a table, too much work :P [10:51] hehe [10:51] gee [10:51] its almost 6pm here but the sun is still up [10:52] ah, those wonderful days [10:53] i guess summer is really here then === cc [~cc@byte.fedora] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:08] jsgotangco, you're going to hate me [11:08] haha [11:15] haha [11:15] what is this [11:16] what? nothing! [11:16] haha [11:16] its a badger [11:17] the box still needs to be tweeked a bit [11:17] i know [11:17] i dont see any difference [11:17] youre messing up my wallpaper [11:17] haha [11:17] hmm [11:17] haha [11:17] i got another email from canonical [11:17] about the conference === sabmoc feels so left out [11:18] awww [11:18] i just got lucky i got it [11:18] after the holidays this week, i gotta fix my papers already [11:19] lucky man [11:19] I went to Mataro partially on my own money [11:19] how is it like? [11:20] i mean meeting up with these guys [11:20] really really cool [11:20] I saw a quote in lwn that said "You couldn't tell the difference between the canonical people and not", and that was true [11:20] really [11:21] almost half the people there were canonical [11:21] most of the rest sponsored [11:21] it would be my first time to attend such an event actually, ive been limited to mostly local linux events [11:21] there was a a rocking atmosphere [11:21] so im kind of jittery [11:21] i dont know what to expect [11:21] I should have applied for money [11:21] I probably would have got some [11:22] i mean [11:22] they opened up sponsorship for those in the immediate area [11:22] i took the chance of applying [11:22] burger! [11:23] i was never expecting it [11:23] till mako emailed me a week ago [11:23] Kinnison: hello === Kinnison ruffles Burgundavia [11:23] Kinnison: think there is still a chance I can get some money? [11:23] Burgundavia: Dunno; you can try [11:23] money? [11:24] jsgotangco: you are getting sponsored to go right? [11:24] money from Canonical [11:24] Kinnison works for them [11:24] yes [11:25] is that so? [11:25] i got an email from the travel agent [11:25] he told me he can only fly me on the 23rd [11:25] that gives me a whole day of doing nothing in sydney [11:25] via Quantas === Kinnison arrives at 0615 on the 24th [11:26] but im coming from manila [11:27] jsgotangco: direct, or via HK or singapore? [11:27] direct [11:27] ah, the wonders of flying from UK --> Aus [11:28] Kinnison: it would be direct [11:28] Claire emailed me just now [11:28] jsgotangco: coo [11:28] but i asked her if its ok for me to arrive a day earlier === Kinnison bounces via HK [11:29] and leave a day later [11:29] because thats the only schedule that Edward can get [11:29] what he got was arrive 23 April and leave 02 May [11:31] which gives me 2 extra days in sydney [11:31] :( [11:31] Yeah; I'm doing arrive 24th leave 1st [11:32] ok claire was quick [11:32] she said it was ok [11:34] you guys are so lucky [11:34] looks like im staying a day later hehe [11:35] Burgundavia: you gonna ask; in case? [11:35] I would sell my mother... [11:35] haha [11:35] Kinnison: already did [11:35] Kinnison: I would love to be the photographer === Kinnison shakes his head [11:40] You sir are very confusing [11:40] Kinnison: what is command to search all the packages for a specific file? [11:41] Burgundavia: installed or everything? [11:43] Kinnison: installed [11:43] dpkg -S path [11:43] E.g. dpkg -S bin/ls [11:43] thanks [11:43] I was drawing a blank === Kinnison recommends drawing a pint [11:45] I wouldn't mind a pint [11:45] but all the bars close in 15 [11:45] run. run like the wind [11:45] 20 minutes by car? [11:47] Claire is efficient === jsgotangco is impressed at Canonical staff [11:48] Burgundavia: sux2bU [11:48] indeed === Kinnison 's closest pub is 3 minutes on foot at walking pace [11:48] Less probably [11:48] Kinnison, you live in a small english village [11:49] I live in a city of 3/4 million [11:49] In fact; if it weren't for that house there *points* I'd be able to see the pub from here [11:49] Burgundavia: and I love my village life [11:49] hmm [11:49] there are good points [11:50] debian packaging is driving me mad! [11:50] ok i'll catch you guys later im going home first and get my passport [11:50] there are at least 4 ways of doing everything [11:50] bye bye god bless [11:52] Kinnison: rasputin@Burgundavia:~/Builds/gnome-system-tools/gnome-system-tools-1.2.0/src/network $ cat TODO [11:52] - update user docs [11:52] - drink some beer [11:54] heh [11:55] Kinnison: programming question [11:55] Kinnison: a file refers to @pixmaps@ [11:55] where would I find the setting for this variable? [11:55] assuming it is not in the file itself [11:56] It'll be a .in ? [11:56] yes [11:56] That will be a variable substituted by configure [11:57] hmm [11:57] ok [11:57] thanks [11:57] you can look in configure.{ac,in} to see if it's any clearer [11:57] ok [12:07] Burgundavia, any chance I can mail you my gpg key and get you to sign it? [12:07] or however that tricky process goes [12:09] sabmoc: Usually, signing keys in as in person thing [12:09] sabmoc: as, how do I know it is you [12:09] sabmoc: people bring keys and id [12:11] sabmoc: if anyone will sign your key without meeting you physically then let me know so I can mark their key as explicitly distrusted in my trust database [12:12] sabmoc: to sign without verifying identity is a very very irresponsible thing to do which weakens the web of trust [12:12] It also devalues GPG signatures for those of us who take it seriously [12:12] [12:13] as he said [12:13] eep [12:13] ok [12:14] usually, key signings are held at conferences [12:14] Kinnison, sorry, but Burgundavia lives close to me and actually I was hoping to meet him so that we could exchange keys and beer, which I still plan to do, so I wasnt trying to do anything tricky by asking to mail them to me. [12:15] but you're right, it would be a security breach [12:15] Also; rather than mailing your key around; you put it on the keyservers [12:16] so that they are publically available [12:16] I have mine on biglumber.com [12:16] biglumber is crap [12:16] oh :( [12:16] gpg --keyserver subkeys.pgp.net --send-keys mykeyid [12:16] (sorry, my biglumber opinion is my own and should be taken with a pinch of salt) [12:17] bah [12:17] Im not a security buff so I'll just take your word for it [12:17] linuxfest northwest and ubu are on the same time [12:18] Kinnison, gpg: success sending to `subkeys.pgp.net' (status=200) === sabmoc needs to get out more [12:20] Burgundavia: ubu? [12:21] Kinnison: Ubuntudownunder [12:22] lfnw is april 30 [12:23] Burgundavia: oh u*d*u [12:24] yah [12:24] is 3:30 here [12:24] am that is [12:26] Dude. Go to bed. Reset your body clock [12:28] I mostly have [12:28] I find it is better to stay up [12:28] then go to bed at a normal time tomorrow [12:30] s'not good for you [12:42] Kinnison: ? [12:43] ? [12:43] is a line added to debian/install good enough to get a file installed? [12:43] this is talking about a .desktop file [12:43] so the dir already exists [12:46] yep [12:47] I think [12:47] ok [12:47] that makes my life easy [12:47] test it though :-) [12:48] oh I will [01:07] Kinnison: got a question about changing source [01:12] mmm? [01:14] ok [01:14] so I want to install a .desktop file that installs it's xpm in /usr/share/pixmaps [01:14] however, the program itself references this file for its window [01:14] should I change the source to make it look in pixmaps? [01:15] is that kosher? [01:15] tbh I'd change the .desktop file [01:16] ok, but the general theme is to avoid absolute paths in .desktop files [01:16] makes the whole changing icon for them thing a little harder [01:17] aah [01:17] Hmm [01:17] install a symbolic link? [01:17] ah [01:17] there doesn't seem to be any symbolic links in pixmaps [01:17] nope, none [01:18] tbh without seeing the specific example I'm not sure what to recommend [01:18] ya [01:18] it is pretty easy to change it in the source, but I wondered about how kosher that was [01:18] just a one line change [01:20] I'd probably go for that one line change then [01:20] it'll be easy to revert if you come up with a better way [01:20] is it good programming to have your program reaching out to look for a file in this common dir? [01:22] Seems reasonable to me [01:23] ok === BuffaloSoldier [~user@218.111.150.119] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [~Burgundav@S0106000bdbb5820d.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [DaWorm@198-nas1.dial-pool.digitelone.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:19] greetings [02:27] salut [02:27] beygo home [02:40] salut [03:09] bye bye [03:10] cya === BuffaloSoldier [~user@218.111.150.119] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Leaving"] === jsgotangco [DaWorm@33-nas1.dial-pool.digitelone.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:45] can i ask a dumb question? [04:46] yes [04:46] i have no idea how to do this because i use Email certs but what is a GPG key? [04:47] a gpg key is public/private key pair that you use to sign things to prove it is you [04:47] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPG [04:47] is that similar to an email certificate? [04:47] what does email certs do? [04:48] well it signs/encrypts email [04:48] proves that its you [04:48] gpg key is similar [04:48] Email certificates (x509 ones normally) are similar in concept to SSL certificates. They're used to authenticate and to encrypt [04:48] you can also use gpg keys to sign archives, like svn and baz [04:48] GPG keys are a generalisation of this [04:48] thanks Kinnison [04:48] ok is this like the old pgp [04:49] yes [04:49] Indeed; GPG is an implementation of the OpenPGP standard [04:49] ok then i have an idea what Matthias wants [04:50] once you generate a key, expect to use it for a long while [04:50] Indeed. GPG keys are meant to be very long-lived [04:50] in otherwords, keep it somewhere safe [04:50] mine is almost five years old and is a baby key by some people's standards [04:51] windows boxen are usally not high on the list === Kinnison keeps his on a USB keyfob for example [04:51] ill do that as well === Burgundavia knows that his keyfob goes everywhere with Kinnison [04:52] ok here's another [04:52] Burgundavia: not *everywhere* [04:52] whats an SSH public key? [04:52] it's not waterproof [04:52] SSH keys are a method of automatically identifying you during a secure-shell transaction [04:52] they're typically used to allow you to log into another system without needing to use a passphrase [04:52] how do i generate that? [04:53] you say 'ssh-keygen -t dsa' or 'ssh-keygen -t rsa' === Kinnison prefers dsa; some prefer rsa [04:53] what do we usually use? [04:53] then it will create ~/.ssh/id_[dr] sa.pub which is the public key component; and ~/.ssh/id_[dr] sa which is the private component [04:54] again; it's important to keep the private components safe. Mine are on my keyfob too. [04:54] that was fast, like talking to a bot lol === Kinnison smiles [04:54] Someone should add this to some FAQ pages on the ubuntu wiki === Burgundavia hides [04:54] burgey! You'll do it for me? *mwah* [04:54] i'll do it after some research [04:54] no [04:54] I won't [04:55] never [04:55] ah maybe just a little [04:55] but I hate the wiki [04:55] I really do [04:55] or just post this log [04:55] I hatesses it more [04:55] why not? [04:55] i like the wiki [04:55] its a bit messed up though [04:55] I like wikis, just not ours [04:56] same here. [04:56] It was much better when it was moinmoin [04:56] But zwiki lets us integrate the searching in with the rest of the site [04:56] something other than this, please [04:56] yes, that is cool about zwiki [04:56] it just needs a whole pile more features [04:56] how come we intend to standardise on moin then [04:57] moinmoin is a wiki [04:57] moin is a markup style that came from former [04:57] yes so i read [04:58] So we're standardising on moin markup in zwiki y'see [04:59] yes, as he said [04:59] wait, what do i need to do this ssh public key and the gpg key? [05:04] Commonly you give the ssh public key to someone who is setting up an account for you on a computer [05:07] ok i think i get it now i can sleep soundly before i leave tommorow for boracay === cc [~cc@byte.fedora] has joined #ubuntu-doc === enrico_ [~enrico@enrico.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:44] salut enrico [06:44] Hi! === abelli [~user@a71843ed518fb35f.node.tor] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:45] bonne soir [06:45] abelli: bonne soir === enrico is going === cc [~cc@byte.fedora] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:08] ciao abelli [07:22] Kinnison: ciao Danielone === maskie [~maskie@196-30-109-131.uudial.uunet.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jjesse [~jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === sm wears his survey hat [08:31] hello Burgundavia, what are the top 3 problems with the wiki ? [08:31] parenting [08:31] inflexible [08:31] ie. parenting is inflexible [08:31] how so [08:31] one page one parent [08:32] one page can and should belong to multiple groups/categories/parents [08:32] ie [08:32] a howto [08:32] is both a howto [08:32] and possibly documentation in progress [08:32] sm: might I ask who you are? [08:33] sure, I'm Simon, one of the volunteers with ubunti wiki admin access, and zwiki author [08:33] hi [08:33] pages can have multiple parents [08:33] ah [08:34] I think people are seeing the reparent form at the bottom of the page, but not the reparent form in backlinks (when you click title) [08:34] and certainly not the zwiki docs, god help us :) [08:35] hmm [08:35] I would then say, those need to be merged [08:35] a more flexible method of parenting editing [08:36] move that stuff to the main page [08:36] part of having 2 parents is visually showing that [08:36] currently it shows one [08:36] really ? only one appears above the title ? [08:36] currently yes [08:37] ah, I think that might be a bug with the zwiki_plone skin [08:37] hmm [08:37] ok [08:37] if you alt =, it should show both [08:37] do you have the name of a page with two, I'll check [08:38] just a sec and I will find one [08:38] http://ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WikiTips tells more about alt = [08:39] ok [08:39] sounds good [08:39] related to that [08:39] the lots of little globe gives me the sense that there are lots of directories/pages above me [08:40] but that may be a ubuntu wiki specific thing [08:41] that is an old plone css + firefox display bug, I think [08:41] I see it often, but I'm not sure how to reproduce [08:42] I see it on every page [08:42] next topic of dislike [08:42] history [08:42] compare and contrast: [08:42] http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Beijing_Capital_International_Airport&curid=291328&action=history [08:42] http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WikiTips/diff [08:43] ok.. yes, our diff display is primitive and needs some love [08:43] noted [08:43] related to that [08:43] quickrevert === sm likes trac's [08:44] you don't see it on that, but admins on WP have a little button that reverts the last entry to the 2nd to last [08:44] we have that, no ? [08:45] oh, not enabled on ubuntu wiki [08:45] ok [08:45] do you mean like revert all successive.. at http://zwiki.org/TestPage/diff ? [08:45] no, it reverts the last change [08:45] it would be up with history and backlinks [08:46] very fast button [08:47] I try to reduce ui clutter, so we have always had it in the diff form [08:47] do you think all ubuntu wiki pages should have this, accessible to any member ? and right on the page ? [08:47] this would only appear for certain people when they are logged in [08:49] there is a lot of dead space that is wasted on the wiki, IMHO [08:49] especially vertically [08:49] I agree [08:50] that's why I always switch to the non-plone skin [08:50] but we need to fix the default [08:50] side bars are great [08:50] you like those eh [08:50] bah [08:50] nearly every website does them because they work === sm likes *all* the space for content :) [08:50] you just have to do them right [08:51] yes [08:51] I personally happen to like the WP layout [08:51] I find it is clean and functional [08:51] what would you do to the default (plone) wiki skin to make it better ? [08:51] space-wise ? [08:51] merge the 2 tabs [08:52] possibly place the 1st row of tabs in a sidbar? [08:52] remove the gap between the bottom of the 1st row of tabs and the 2nd [08:52] generally cut the blank space down to a minimum [08:53] you can do that without getting crowded [08:55] ok, that's changing the standard plone layout [08:55] that is fine [08:55] which I have no problem with, but I basically only have authority to change stuff inside the brown box, if that [08:55] hmm [08:55] I know ubuntu recently held a redesign contents for the overall plone skin [08:55] did you see ? [08:55] well, inside the wiki itself is not the issue [08:55] (contest) [08:55] yes I saw it [08:56] I saw pretty stuff and very little in the way of spacing decisions [08:56] I am holding my breath [08:56] not that I object to pretty stuff [08:56] there's no webmaster right now, afaik [08:56] hmm [08:56] which makes progress kind of slow :/ [08:56] some minor points [08:56] watchlists --> think subscribe, but within the wiki [08:57] really really useful [08:57] showing pages changed since last visit in recent changes ? [08:57] watchlists shows a subsection choosen by you [08:57] oh [08:57] you watch/subscribe to them [08:58] recent changes for a subset of pages [08:58] yes [08:58] then it is on one page, and you view at your leisure [08:58] if you can tie that in with email for those who want, great [08:59] even better, and very blue sky,would be rss feeds [08:59] well, we have experimental rss feeds in WikiWishlist [08:59] and we have email subscription to pages of your choice [08:59] cool [08:59] if you could unify the concept, that would be cool [08:59] but we don't have a recent changes listing of pages of your choice.. noted [09:00] basically make it one big list, viewed however you want [09:00] people say it's useful, so it must not be just featuritis.. right ? [09:00] really easy to administer and think about [09:00] this isn;t a new feature, just extending an old one [09:00] I try to work on the stuff 80% of users will use [09:00] and the 10 largest wikis in the world use it [09:00] really ? [09:00] all of WP uses watchlist [09:01] have you looked at Mediawiki? [09:01] yes, periodically [09:01] I find their recent changes over-confusing for most sues [09:01] uses [09:01] but I'll look at their watchlists again [09:01] most people use watchlists [09:01] you will need to create an account [09:01] watchlists are private to the specific account [09:02] on the parenting/categories thing, have you seen categories in wp? [09:02] I like the idea, but there are some limitations [09:02] like being able to sort the category the way you want it [09:02] either by the user on the fly [09:02] or the editor beforehand [09:03] ? === skyrider [~skyrider@195.128.178.150] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:03] limitations of wp's categories ? [09:03] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Airports [09:03] sorted purely by alphabetically order [09:04] ah yes [09:04] this is very blue sky of course, but meta data to sort by [09:04] and it knows what's in what category because of the Category: pagename tag in the text ? [09:04] generally, what wikis really really need is easy ways of sorting data [09:05] just like WikiBadges [09:05] we do that [09:05] categories are added to pages [09:05] [[Cateogry:foo] ] [09:05] comme ca [09:05] yes [09:05] like any other link [09:05] oh, that brings me to interlang stuff [09:05] http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiBadge [09:06] ubuntu wiki can do that of course, except, to get a nice in-page listing like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Airports requires dtml enabled, which isn't allowed [09:06] but there is a plan to enable safe moin-style scripting which will enable it again [09:07] actually, the page listing is generated by a php script doing a database query [09:07] oh.. not a wiki page [09:07] ok that's easy [09:07] the page itself is a wiki, but go and edit that airport category [09:07] take a look [09:07] if people want to put category markers on pages, I can add the index [09:07] but using hierarchy seems easier so far [09:08] but we need either parenting or categoires [09:08] not both [09:08] can we fold the 2 concepts into one/ [09:08] ? [09:08] possibly [09:09] they are both trying to solve the same high-level problem [09:09] first, I tend to use parenting as the primary organizer, because it's quicker, and occasionally still use wikibadges/category markers for cross-cutting categorization [09:10] second: http://zwiki.d2m.at/ZPT/FrontPage seems possible to be a way to unify the two [09:10] (facets) [09:10] what are the primary advantages of having parentage that is not covered by categories === Kinnison [~dsilvers@haddenham.pepperfish.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:10] facets, uh no [09:11] way too busy [09:11] disregard that ui [09:11] but back to the present - advantages of parenting vs. categories ? [09:12] you can theory represent that same parent hierarchy using just category markers [09:13] if you work very hard at keeping it consistent [09:13] yes [09:13] all wikis tend to chaos at the edges [09:13] because hierarchical organization is so familiar to us, I find it's good to have it built in and let the software do more of the work [09:14] it's a (entirely optional) way to bring some order to the traditional wiki soup [09:14] Hey guys! Few minutes ago I've looked at https://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/local page and I saw completely screwed russian letters in "Russian" section of that page. When I looked at that page last time (about a month ago) - everything was fine. Can you somehow fix it? I can't fix it because I don't have enough permissions on site. Can somebody fix Russian text or maybe somebody can give me access for modification of that page and I'll fix that my [09:15] I haven't seen category markers do that quite so well, though wikipedia's are good [09:15] well, if we are hosting docs out of it, we need somethingmore akin to WP that c2 [09:15] sm: There was a lot of talk about WP's categories and how to do them [09:16] the advantage we have is we can impose order on the wiki [09:16] WP anarchy you cannot impose order very easily [09:16] sivang: alive? [09:16] unless you do as I do with airports which is simply be the first with the plan [09:16] we can say [09:16] all howtos under howtos [09:16] and all gnome under gnome [09:16] etc. [09:17] the parenting feature is really equivalent to having a ParentCategory: parentpages on every page [09:17] to be honest [09:17] but it's moved out of the page body, into the ui, and is more convenient to manage [09:17] imho [09:17] yes, that is where WP falls down [09:17] but it doesn't have to be that way [09:18] it can easily be categories in the ui [09:18] but don't make it an extra click if at all possible [09:18] that is what is so horrid about the history [09:18] the sheer cost of the clicks to view everything [09:20] can you just clarify that last point.. where are there too many clicks to view a zwiki page's history ? [09:20] to go back in the history "costs" me a click for each edit [09:21] you will notice, if you spend any time with me, is I talk a lot about "cost of clicks" and how to reduce them [09:21] I definitely relate to that [09:21] or time costs in general, for that matter [09:22] I started zwiki because I didn't like the extra click to add a comment on c2 :) [09:22] slow machine, etc. [09:22] another big then in wp [09:22] seperation of content and chatter [09:22] via talk pages [09:22] I have gone back and forth on that [09:22] this is one of the key things that is needed for presentation stuff [09:22] I see it works for wp [09:22] for presentation stuff, it is needed [09:23] for other stuff, not so much [09:24] ok I see what you mean about wp, it lists the diffs [09:24] hmm [09:25] blue sky, but a dhtml foo thing there would be killer [09:25] ? [09:25] for the diffs, to reduce the cost of the clicks [09:25] but that is very blue sky [09:26] ah [09:26] would be great, but not priority for me [09:27] I'm nailing down core stuff this year [09:27] ya [09:27] "no new features!" :) [09:27] blue sky is great to think about though [09:27] anyway [09:27] definitely [09:27] well I'd better wind down here.. thanks for this input [09:27] get rid of camel case [09:27] it's an option [09:27] looks better, IMHO [09:27] if you want to raise any of these thing on one of the lists to get wider consensus, that would be good [09:28] ok [09:28] not really a priority until post hoary though [09:28] I can change a lot of stuff if I get approval from the community [09:28] ok [09:28] are you working on that ? [09:28] hoary? [09:28] yes [09:28] packaging with MOTU and docs [09:28] great [09:29] talk again soon [09:29] it was good to talk about this with someone [09:31] likewise, see you [09:42] hy skyrider [09:42] sm: hi [09:42] I don't have authority to give you access, but maybe I can fix it [09:43] see if you can paste the letters here, or will gaim mangle them.. [09:43] what should be after #ubuntu-ru ? [09:43] I see: 2 A5B8 [09:44] sm: I'll write small html page with all russian text. [09:44] sm: all those 2 A5B8 is complete garbage :( [09:44] ok.. if you paste at http://ubuntulinux.org/wiki/SandBox I can paste it into the support page [09:44] or anywhere [09:45] sm: ok === enrico [~enrico@enrico.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:00] enrico: read backlog for wiki discussion with sm [10:06] Burgundavia: I don't have backlog. Trying with the irclog.workaround.org [10:07] Would you like opinions on something specific? [10:07] nope, just letting you know [10:08] ok, thanks! [10:08] I added a summary of issues to WikiWishlist [10:08] quick one enrico: can we enable revert button for all logged in members ? [10:08] Burgundavia: why do you need that anyway ? [10:08] I only use it for undoing spam [10:09] sm: I see no problems in giving freedom to wiki users [10:10] sm: what would that be needed for? === sm looks at Burgundavia [10:10] well if there's no problem, I'll just enable it [10:10] it's a standard feature [10:10] sm: for quick revert of vandals [10:11] Burgundavia: do we have vandals? [10:11] we don't really have vandals though, do we ? [10:11] we will [10:11] all wikis do [10:11] but this is members-only [10:11] alas [10:11] which so far seems to prevent it [10:11] but why not enable it [10:12] Burgundavia: I think the world looks nicer if you expect people to be fine, especially when they are already being fine === enrico reads the backlog [10:12] sm: I see you have a problem with multiple parents [10:12] that is, you complain people don't get it [10:12] *I* don't :) [10:12] In fact, I think that feature is really hard to see. i did have to ask you as well [10:13] well I'm seeing that they don't, and I see why.. I hope I'm not complaining [10:13] For example, you manage parents clicking on something called "backlinks": I'd never expect that [10:13] I think it would seem more natural if you had been using zwiki all along [10:13] (obviously) [10:14] there used to be no quick form at the bottom [10:14] And the "reparent" button gives you the idea that you have only one parent: if you had more than once, what are you doing with that reparenting function? Removing all other parents? [10:14] the great thing about software, is that we get used to the quirks of the ones that we use regularly [10:14] and reparenting fit naturally with backlinks, because the pages that link to you are often the ones you want to be a parent [10:14] sm: Yes, it fits from the POV of the developer's brain model of the wiki, but not for the user's [10:15] so clicking on the page title is really the primary form for "page relationships" [10:15] sm: you could have a "parents" button that would show the backlinks as a convenience list to pick from [10:15] which I think fits with original wiki [10:15] yes [10:15] that would also fit in the mental model of the users [10:16] do you mean change the "backlinks" tab to "parents", or duplicate it ? [10:16] Duplicate it, even [10:16] but that would be too many buttons [10:17] And how about changing the "reparent" in the quick form to "add parent" ? [10:17] That would make it clear that multiple parents are there [10:17] because actually you can't click on the title in plone skin, you must click backlinks [10:17] it doesn't add parent, it replaces whatever you add [10:17] whatever you had [10:18] Yes, but how about changing the function of it? [10:18] That'd make it very quick to add parent as "categories" [10:18] yes it's a thought.. I tried to make that form do what would be least confusing to most users [10:18] and then you could delete parents maybe with a button next to the parent names at the top of the page [10:18] nb mouse over it for help [10:19] too many buttons & controls is a problem you see [10:19] Yes, I know [10:19] A "manage parents" button to the right side of the page, vertically aligned with the parents? [10:20] really I'd like to simplify that plone skin a lot [10:21] which would allow that kind of experiment [10:21] do you think anyone'd mind ? [10:21] sm [10:22] how about this: replace "reparent" with "add parent", then allow to and add remove parents in the "Edit wiki page" [10:22] I turned off my brain, that that's where my hand go when I had the intention of removing parents [10:22] s/that that's/and that's/ [10:22] in edit [10:23] sm: to simplify the plone skin you should coordinate with jdub and the effort to change the look of the website [10:23] I know they made a contest for a new look [10:23] jdub ? ok [10:23] what's jdub's job title ? [10:23] does it include webmaster ? [10:23] sm: you better add mako in Cc, though. jdub is sometimes unresponsive [10:23] so is mako :( [10:23] so are well all of course [10:23] I'm not sure about jdub's title, but he's the one that handled the website look contest [10:23] not complaining, mako [10:24] sm: :) [10:24] enrico: the website look contest has been passed off to henrik omma [10:24] aha [10:24] sm: so, that's your man :) [10:25] mako: thanks [10:25] does henrik's job title include webmaster :) [10:25] i'm not sure [10:25] we don't really have job titles here [10:25] I want to talk to the person who can tell me yes do stuff or no don't :) [10:25] Burgundavia: try DocteamPostHoary: that shows two parents [10:25] sm: i have been rather unresponsive this last week.. i sort of spilled water on my laptop last wendesday [10:26] yes, no problem [10:26] you and I are still going to chat about zwiki upgrades some time ? [10:26] mako: water? You're getting rusty my friend. A year ago you'd spill any sort of liquid on it, EXCEPT water :) [10:26] sm: what exactly do you need right now? to upgrade teh wiki? [10:26] mako: I saw that on your blog [10:26] yes.. a one-time upgrade would be helpful [10:26] enrico: olive oil! === Kinnison yawns [10:27] Kinnison: go to bed! [10:27] Burgundavia: tempting [10:27] it's only 21:27 though [10:27] I'd also like to know the process for future upgrades, and if possible get everyone's approval for it to happen on a regular schedule [10:27] but a quick upgrade today would fix several problems [10:27] sm: i don't think it's going to actually involve me [10:27] ok [10:27] Burgundavia: I've only been up 14 hours. Not like you [10:27] sm: but i'm happy to help poke the necessary people for you [10:28] sm: i don't have access or knowledge about any of the component parts [10:28] ok, who to poke ? [10:28] sm: what sort of access do you need to upgrade zwiki? [10:28] sm: BTW, i appreciate your patience on this [10:28] np [10:29] Kinnison: I have now been up 21 [10:29] simplest and best from my point of view: once a month I ssh to the server, I pull the latest with darcs (preserving ubuntu-specific tweaks), I restart zope [10:30] or: every so often I ping someone at canonical to ssh in and do darcs pull [10:31] or: every so often I ping someone to install a tarball I've prepared from a ubuntu-zwiki darcs repo which I manage locally [10:31] (in decreasing order of efficiency) [10:31] sm: you mentioned "facets" some time ago. That is enough for me to love you === sm dances [10:33] mako: last time I discussed this with someone there was blather about not wanting to install darcs on the server [10:33] lets try for the second one [10:33] ok.. lets try the third one :) [10:33] let's try for the second ! :) [10:33] alright.. :) [10:33] I can make tarballs if necessary, but it's waste work [10:33] and I'll do it less often === mako nods [10:34] yeah.. working with the admins and getting accounts has proved problematic in the past [10:35] the main thing is to get contact with someone who can and will do upgrades [10:35] how it's done is not so important I guess === enrico [~enrico@enrico.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:46] sm alright, i think elmo is going to the one we're going to need to deal with [10:46] but we should check with henrik first to make sure he doesn't haev the power to do this [10:46] when he is on IRC he is hno73 [10:46] ok.. I've chatted with elmo briefly [10:46] thx [10:51] let me know if anybody needs prodding [10:55] thx [10:55] later all ! [11:02] sm-afk: alive? [11:02] sm-afk: I've fixed that page. Waiting for you... [11:06] skyrider: just copying the html from sandbox.. I don't need these class="reference" do I ? [11:07] the original doesn't have them [11:07] where did you see class="reference"??? [11:07] I've written in in pure ReST [11:07] maybe there's one in the original [11:07] ok.. I copied html from the rendered wiki page, since I need html [11:08] no problem [11:08] ok. BTW, I think class="reference" defines small globe picture in CSS for links. [11:09] ah [11:11] better ? [11:11] what is a good reasource for learning to customize a wiki? [11:12] double globe, fixed [11:13] sabmoc: different people mean different things by that.. you mean.. [11:14] sm-afk: looks good. Thank you very much. [11:15] glad to help [11:33] sm-afk, the Local Canadian team just got its own website [11:34] sm-afk, I haven't run a wiki before, and we're going to need to customize it. [11:34] sabmoc: a zwiki ? [11:34] sm-afk, yes, matthias set it up for us just today [11:34] cool [11:35] yeah :) [11:35] http://zwiki.org , administrator's guide, QuickReference, and #zwiki [11:35] let's talk more later [11:35] sm-afk, ok [11:35] thank you [11:35] np === sm-afk obeys the nick === skyrider [~skyrider@195.128.178.150] has left #ubuntu-doc []