[11:04] <froud> African Greetings
[03:42] <amu> moin'
[03:43] <Beineri> moin
[06:58] <motaboy> Hi all.
[06:58] <amu> wb  
[06:59] <haggai> hiya
[07:00] <haggai> amu: do you know why there are .gmo files in kde-i18n's .tar.gz?  Aren't .[g] mo autogenerated anyway?
[07:00] <haggai> dpkg-source is complaining when I try to dpkg-buildpackage -b ; dpkg-buildpackage -S
[07:01] <haggai> dpkg-source: cannot represent change to zh_CN/messages/kdeutils/ksim.gmo: binary file contents changed
[07:01] <haggai> dpkg-source: cannot represent change to zh_CN/messages/kdeutils/ktimer.gmo: binary file contents changed
[07:01] <haggai> etc
[07:03] <amu> as i know .pot is the original, foo.po' are the translations, foo.gmo' are the compiled foo.po translations (binaries)
[07:03] <haggai> exactly, so why am I seeing these in the .tar.gz?
[07:16] <amu> haggai: which dir you found them? 
[07:17] <haggai> amu: all over the source
[07:17] <haggai> amu: I'm trying this now
[07:18] <haggai> find `cat subdirs` -type f -name '*.gmo' -exec rm {} \;
[07:18] <haggai> in the clean target
[07:23] <amu> froud: you could ask also in #kubuntu 
[07:46] <froud> amu: I tought you said the KDEPIM problem with install of Kubuntu from GNOME was fixed?
[08:27] <froud> Riddell: r u awake
[08:34] <amu> froud: problem is still gnupg-agent which isnt in main ... 
[08:35] <froud> amu what do you suggest I add to my doc to help users
[08:35] <froud> all I have is desktop and help
[08:35] <froud> :-)
[08:35] <froud> anyone know why
[08:36] <froud> amu: is it in Universe?
[08:37] <froud> amu: if it is then adding Universe to sources.list should fix it
[09:01] <amu> froud: i'm adding a review of it to my todo's ... will do a review within next 24h 
[09:01] <froud> amu: ok thanks
[09:01] <froud> amu: btw I am just waiting for sysadim at kde to get me my account
[09:02] <froud> amu: should be able to continue with knetwork-conf then
[09:04] <amu> froud: cool, if you need an sync, i've also an acc there
[09:05] <froud> amu: cool, should get the account after the long weekend. Being easter and all, they are slow
[09:05] <amu> froud: checkedout cvs knetworkconf merged it run testbuild it now
[09:06] <froud> amu: any news on https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=8180
[09:06] <froud> Hmm seems Chris has it
[09:09] <froud> is anything active on kynaptic?
[09:09] <froud> seems like it just died
[09:09] <amu> ups, i just finished it, some lintian cleanup and ready for a first test
[09:10] <froud> ok
[09:10] <amu> froud: you wanna test new knetworkconf ?
[09:10] <froud> sure
[09:10] <amu> you run a ppc or you need i386 debs? 
[09:11] <froud> i386
[09:11] <amu> gimme 5min. for a 386 port 
[09:11] <froud> no worries
[09:26] <amu> froud: http://bofh.debian.net/tmp/knetworkconf_0.6.1-3ubuntu1.1_i386.deb
[09:28] <froud> amu: install is just dpkg -i
[09:29] <amu> yep
[09:35] <froud> amu: what's changed?
[09:35] <froud> amu: bug #8180 is still not fixed
[09:36] <froud> amu: and design changes given to Juan are not implimented
[09:36] <froud> amu: other than that it looks the same to be
[09:39] <amu> froud: as i saw there most cosmetic changes and of course ubuntu support in it, run a checkout 1-2h ago, what did you changed/submitted ? 
[09:42] <froud> Hmmm, well my install does not show any changes
[09:43] <froud> amu: is it possible to run it as kcmshell
[09:46] <froud> amu: why call it kcm_knetworkconfmodule
[09:49] <froud> amu: really I can't see any changes
[09:49] <amu> froud: it's possible to run it as a kcmshell
[09:49] <froud> yeah I run it as kcmshell kcm_knetworkconfmodule
[09:49] <amu> froud: that's what i checkout from cvs
[09:50] <froud> Hmmm, seems Juan did not do the changes I asked for 
[09:50] <froud> which cvs btw
[09:50] <froud> the kde one?
[09:50] <amu> froud: within kcontrol resize of the windows work, as a shell it doesnt 
[09:50] <amu> yes the kde one
[09:50] <froud> Hmmm
[09:50] <froud> strange
[09:51] <amu> s/as/in
[09:51] <froud> hmm. OK
[09:52] <froud> Well I guess Juan is waiting for the move and accounts to be setup at KDE
[09:53] <froud> I spoke to KDE Docs about Kynaptic
[09:53] <froud> they can have a profiled doc in KDE CVS
[09:54] <froud> amu: we were going to take the synaptic document and profile it to save us head-aches
[09:54] <froud> amu: but if we do that then we will need preprocessing in order to get gnome and kde versions of the document. Once for Synaptic and once for Kynaptic
[09:54] <amu> dont know, he told me that the ubuntu support is in now, and they changed to kde-cvs, no other new from him, wel at least it looks better than before, ubuntu support is also on it, should i upload the new deb? 
[09:55] <froud> what ubuntu support?
[09:55] <froud> amu: as far as I see nothing has changed
[09:56] <froud> and the module is useless if we dont fix bug 8180
[09:56] <froud> that bug is a BLOCKER
[09:56] <amu> mine looks different, smater than before, and there isnt anmore 2 question which distro you use ... 
[09:57] <amu> smater/smarter 
[09:57] <froud> OK agreed that was fixed, but I had checked that option to remember
[09:57] <froud> so I would not know if it is fixed or not
[09:58] <froud> The options on the routes tab are still wrong from a usability perspective
[09:58] <amu> hold on i'll test it on my testmaschine 
[09:58] <froud> the drop list should be on the left
[10:11] <froud> amu: it definately detects ubuntu
[10:12] <froud> amu: I just uninstalled and cleaned up and it no longer prompts for platform after new installation
[10:14] <froud> amu: I dont see changes with regard to these entries in the Changelog
[10:14] <froud> - New dialog for managing static hosts.
[10:14] <froud> - Many User Interface enhaments.
[10:17] <amu> froud: http://bofh.debian.net/tmp/knetworkconf_0.6.1-3ubuntu1.1.diff.gz 
[10:18] <amu> upstream changelog isnt updated, those are the changed from 0.6 -> 0.6.1 .... i wrote the changes to debian's changelog 
[10:28] <froud> amu: OK I see. Seems the changes I noted to him were not done yet.
[10:29] <froud> Other than that it works, but still cant change IP address
[10:29] <froud> I can chang eit from the backend
[10:29] <froud> but not the front
[10:34] <amu> froud: confirmed, it definitiv do nothing, expect using diskspace
[10:34] <froud> amu: :-) lol
[10:35] <froud> amu: I will have a first draft of kynaptic by tomorrow night, will give it to you then so you can commit it
[10:35] <apokryphos> Ah, since it was mentioned now ;), I've been meaning to bring this up: just what was the problem with Kpackage?
[10:36] <froud> apokryphos: dunno, not working on it
[10:37] <apokryphos> Because Kynaptic was chosen as the default, but kpackage seems *much* more advanced (I prefer it to synaptic now, easily). 
[10:37] <amu> froud: ok
[10:37] <apokryphos> I know it was mentioned that work was going to be done on kynaptic, but isn't that an unnecessarily hassle, since something decent is out there on the market already?
[10:38] <froud> apokryphos: last I looked at kpackage iit could not do half of what synpatic does with package management
[10:39] <apokryphos> froud: Been investigating it last two days, and I can't say I've seen any disadvantages with it.
[10:39] <apokryphos> It's also good because, unlike kynaptic, when it's running it doesn't hog apt. Only does when it's commiting things.
[10:40] <apokryphos> *k/synaptic
[10:42] <froud> apokryphos: I don't mind which one users use. But I think that most use Synaptic on K/Ubuntu, no?
[10:42] <froud> If yes then it makes sense to have kynaptic
[10:42] <usual> did things like /exec amarok in konversation stop working with the latest kde updates
[10:43] <froud> but I agree that kpackage is a good alternative
[10:43] <apokryphos> froud: Most users on Ubuntu use Synaptic, but I had a discussion with members yesterday in #kubuntu, and it was agreed (among the ones who spoke), that kpackage was quite a bit nicer. 
[10:43] <apokryphos> froud: why would it make sense to have kynaptic, though, if the above was the case?
[10:44] <froud> apokryphos: personally I dont like kpackage
[10:44] <froud> apokryphos: but then that is just me
[10:44] <apokryphos> froud: how come?
[10:45] <froud> apokryphos: poor usability standards mostly
[10:45] <froud> apokryphos: bad use of desktop real-estate
[10:45] <apokryphos> How so? I found it quite usable. :D Quite liked the way many things were handled there.
[10:47] <apokryphos> I wouldn't base it solely on first impressions ;-). I think it's natural a lot of the time to prefer old things before using the new ones for a bit; that's the case with change in general.
[10:47] <apokryphos> (example: the new icon-zooming in 3.4)
[10:49] <froud> apokryphos: I have been using kde for 5 years and have not touched it in the last three
[10:51] <apokryphos> Sorry, little ambigious; haven't "touched it"? You mean, not alter with defualt settings? :)
[10:51] <froud> apokryphos: looking it it now I just dont see the need to have so much real-estate for Properties | File List | ChangLog
[10:51] <froud> apokryphos: no when I was using it, it worked
[10:51] <froud> but then I starte dusing synaptic and found it faster and easier
[10:52] <apokryphos> oh, referring to kpackage. RIght.
[10:52] <froud> so from a usability perspective I was more productive
[10:52] <froud> kpackage is still clunky
[10:52] <apokryphos> Re: real-estate with Properties etc... I think that's hardly a point to reject the use of it. It's an extra option, and options are good. You can ignore them when you don't like them. ;-)
[10:53] <froud> I agree options are good
[10:53] <froud> I just said my preference is for synaptic
[10:53] <froud> and if there was kynaptic modelled on synpatic I would be a happy camper
[10:53] <froud> each user will find their way
[10:54] <froud> but as a documenter, I am sensitized to usability
[10:54] <froud> I found synaptic to have a higher level of usability
[10:54] <froud> It was quicker to do things and fewer  click were required
[10:54] <apokryphos> Plus parts in kpackage, as I see it: (i) it's KDE, (ii) love the way it doesn't hog apt, (iii) information on packages *far* more accessible with the demarcation there of the GUI, (iv) better search (filtering).
[10:54] <froud> screen real-estate was optimized
[10:55] <apokryphos> I genuinely think it's more aesthetically pleasing, but that's a more subjective point.
[10:55] <froud> synaptic remembers your searches for example, kpackage does not
[10:56] <froud> aesthetics are important on a desktop
[10:56] <froud> especially kde
[10:56] <apokryphos> Very true, but that's almost a necessary consequence of the search method (filtering). I think the pros on that type of search outnumber the cons.
[10:56] <apokryphos> froud: agreed.
[10:57] <froud> The intersting thing is that I work on SuSE
[10:57] <froud> and I still use YaST under ncurses
[10:57] <apokryphos> Cool; only used it briefly, but my brother was a big fan.
[10:57] <apokryphos> still got the SuSE mascot we got from the Linux Expo ;)
[10:57] <froud> I find YaST user ncurse easy than Kpackage, go figure
[10:58] <apokryphos> not too familiar with it myself
[10:58] <froud> Still it is worth developing both apps
[10:59] <apokryphos> I think Kynaptic has potential, but that's it's a far way off. It's mildly off-putting asking newbies to use Kynaptic; first thing some have ended up doing is getting all gtk in to get Synaptic back.
[10:59] <apokryphos> I really think kpackage would make a decent default. 
[11:00] <froud> apokryphos: well no reason why not
[11:01] <apokryphos> It is, on the whole, quite unknown. Dunno. Perhaps it could be an issue discussed in the next kubuntu meeting? Who knows.
[11:01] <froud> a newbie will not have diserning taste and will accept most of what is thrown at them until the learn of better methods :-)
[11:02] <apokryphos> :P
[11:02] <froud> I agree that kynaptic should not be installed until it is ready
[11:02] <apokryphos> Yes. If it is developement and grows to be good, then we should be using only the best. ;)
[11:02] <froud> one of the things I hate on some distros is they way they add half functional apps by default
[11:03] <apokryphos> That's essentially my point, here. :)
[11:03] <froud> I think that this goes against what k/ubuntu is doing
[11:03] <froud> k/ubuntu is said to take a handfull of good apps and isntall them instead of installing everything and the kitchen sink
[11:04] <froud> I think this is where SuSE went wrong
[11:04] <froud> The best thing with Kpackage is, as you say, integration with Konqueror
[11:05] <apokryphos> froud: what kind of things were problematic in SuSE? You running Ubuntu now? Or multiple distros, perhaps?
[11:05] <froud> newbies love Konqueror and may never use kpackage, but will install packages via iiit under Konqueror
[11:06] <apokryphos> Yeah, you can install .debs with it etc.
[11:06] <froud> apokryphos: i have multiple machines, labs, but my   desktop is SuSE
[11:06] <apokryphos> ;)
[11:06] <froud> until I am happy to switch to Kubuntu
[11:07] <froud> I can trust SuSE
[11:07] <froud> I cant yet trust Kubuntu
[11:07] <apokryphos> Cool. Whatever floats your boat. We had five different distros until the other day... converted my youngest brother to Kubu. :P
[11:07] <froud> like today, I did a smart upgrade and lost KPanel
[11:07] <apokryphos> Yup, it still needs some work, no doubt (last dist-upgrade was problematic), but it's looking very promising.
[11:08] <apokryphos> yup, had problems with my kicker and other .kde settings too. :_
[11:08] <froud> abosolutely that's why I am contributing ;-)
[11:08] <apokryphos> :)
[11:08] <froud> and the nice thing is stuff moves upsssstream
[11:08] <apokryphos> Are you on the doc team? Let me know if any help is ever needed there. Been looking for a way to help out Ubu for some time. :)
[11:09] <froud> only yesterday lauri from kde was saying that in six years she has yet to receive docs from a distro
[11:09] <apokryphos> heh
[11:09] <apokryphos> Change for the better -- progress. ;)
[11:09] <froud> now with knetwork-conf will be a first for her
[11:09] <froud> apokryphos: we can always use help on docteam
[11:09] <froud> actually I    am the only one starting to do stuff for kubuntu
[11:10] <froud> so another pair of hands and eyes would be welcome
[11:10] <apokryphos> I'm doing some stuff for kate at the mo, and koffice needs some love, but I'm not overloaded, so I'd be glad to help. :)
[11:10] <froud> for grumpy I am preparing a Kubuntu Quick Guide
[11:10] <froud> and I am also preparing some ICDL modules for Kubuntu
[11:11] <apokryphos> Breezer, you mean. ;) I think that would be very handy. ubuntuguide.org came in extremely useful.
[11:11] <apokryphos> *Breezy
[11:11] <froud> Yeah I think the ICDL stuff will be cool too.
[11:11] <froud> It really is for a person that has never used a pc before
[11:11] <froud> explains things like this is a mouse
[11:12] <froud> a keyboard
[11:12] <froud> these are menus
[11:12] <apokryphos> froud: Please let me know if you need any help with that. I'm willing to write/read over any stuff.
[11:12] <apokryphos> Yup; did some stuff like that when working on Konqueror handbook.
[11:12] <froud> cool I have it in an svn repos out at TSF for now
[11:12] <apokryphos> haggai: any thoughts? :)
[11:12] <froud> apokryphos: do you know the ICDL
[11:13] <haggai> hmm, difficult choice.  I found that although kynaptic is a bit basic, it does enough for simple usage and people can install other alternatives if they want advanced stuff, and then next release we can release an improved kynaptic.  If we set kpackage by default now everyone has to learn something new for next release
[11:13] <apokryphos> froud: No idea what that is, I'm afraid.
[11:13] <froud> International COmputer Drivers License
[11:13] <froud> 7 modules
[11:13] <haggai> also we have mvo (synaptic maintainer) on the canonical team so we can get better support of a synaptic-based package manager than kpackage
[11:14] <froud> haggai: why should that make a diff
[11:14] <apokryphos> haggai: They're all the same at the back
[11:15] <apokryphos> Fact is kpackage is vastly more advanced; kynaptic is really quite weak. :)
[11:15] <haggai> yes, but if we want to go with [ks] ynaptic in the long term..?
[11:15] <apokryphos> I know it'll be developed, but is that not unnecessary if there's something decent out? I guess it could be done, but it would take time...
[11:16] <apokryphos> froud: I'll see you around, and I'll try to find out just what that is. ;)
[11:16] <haggai> apokryphos: is kpackage really decent?  Why isn't everyone using it then?#
[11:16] <apokryphos> haggai: It's very good as far as I've seen, and pretty unknown, on the whole. Try it out; it's in Universe, I think.
[11:16] <froud> apokryphos: checkout https://www.acs.org.au/icdl/
[11:17] <froud> I cant expose the SVN URI yet caus eof licensing issues
[11:17] <apokryphos> haggai: I played around with it yesterday, and personally prefer it ot synaptic it already, like I said. :) Pros/cons mentioned above. 
[11:17] <apokryphos> froud: thanks.
[11:17] <froud> apokryphos: but when I can I will
[11:17] <apokryphos> froud: Please don't forget to poke me as soon as I can be of any help. :P
[11:17] <froud> apokryphos: I will
[11:17] <haggai> apokryphos: I don't disagree its better feature-wise now.  What I am asking is, what makes sense for the longer term?
[11:19] <apokryphos> haggai: I'm trying to consider that here. :) What's the advantage of going kynaptic?
[11:20] <haggai> apokryphos: we can stay with the synaptic UI and codebase (lib wise) meaning the ubuntu & kubuntu user experience is closer
[11:21] <apokryphos> Ubuntu are us, but I don't think the team should be in the business of developing other packages to emphasise the similarity.
[11:22] <haggai> hmmkay we should talk to amu & Riddell 
[11:23] <apokryphos> I agree; would be interested in their opinions.
[11:24] <haggai> apokryphos: would you have time to summarise this to the kubuntu-devel mailing list?
[11:24] <apokryphos> haggai: sure. :)
[11:26] <haggai> thanks - might help the discussion reach a wider audience