[04:37] <Liz> hello all who are awake
[04:37] <Burgundavia> me
[04:37] <Burgundavia> but leaving soon
[04:38] <Liz> no worries..you have a great day
[04:38] <Liz> i have some hoary issues that i need to sort out today
[04:38] <Burgundavia> what sort?
[04:38] <Burgundavia> maybe I can help quickly
[04:39] <Liz> yesterday i had a problem with x not working properly
[04:39] <Burgundavia> hmm
[04:39] <Burgundavia> never good
[04:39] <Liz> we fixed that..but now my scroll mouse wont work
[04:39] <Burgundavia> at all
[04:39] <Burgundavia> or just in ff?
[04:39] <Liz> the mouse works..but the scroll wheel doesnt
[04:40] <Liz> and it was working perfectly before the x upgrade
[04:40] <Burgundavia> hmm
[04:40] <Liz> im guessing i need tor un the mouse setup thing
[04:40] <Liz> but i dont know how yet
[04:40] <Burgundavia> no, it should just work
[04:40] <Burgundavia> it is USB?
[04:41] <Liz> no..serial
[04:41] <Liz> i can use it as usb..but it works just as well with an attachment on it 
[04:41] <Liz> its a logitech mouse
[04:42] <Burgundavia> have you tried it as a usb mouse and seen if it works?
[04:42] <Liz> naa.last time i tried that, it kept saying cant find serial port mouse
[04:42] <Burgundavia> you tried that since x update?
[04:43] <Liz> no...
[04:44] <Liz> ill give it a go
[04:44] <Liz> so..if that doesnt work..how to i get the mouse to be noticed as it should be?
[04:45] <Burgundavia> hmm
[04:45] <Burgundavia> that would involve hacking xorg.conf
[04:45] <Burgundavia> ugly matter
[04:45] <Liz> im not using xorg.conf
[04:45] <Burgundavia> you running warty eh?
[04:46] <Liz> we moved back to X86
[04:46] <Liz> no..hory
[04:46] <Liz> hoary
[04:46] <Burgundavia> ?
[04:46] <Liz> xorg.conf..the kernal is having hissy fits on me
[04:46] <Burgundavia> you running xfree86 on hoary?
[04:46] <Liz> yesterday after an update..yesterday morning
[04:46] <Liz> when i boot..i get a black screen
[04:46] <Burgundavia> cool
[04:46] <Burgundavia> what kind of machine?
[04:46] <Liz> it had problems..so we backed it up and now it points to x86
[04:47] <Burgundavia> ok
[04:47] <Liz> home built 
[04:47] <Liz> asus athlon 2000+ mb
[04:47] <Liz> no..asrock
[04:47] <Burgundavia> ok
[04:47] <Liz> not asus
[04:47] <Liz> onboard video is an sis chip
[04:47] <Burgundavia> just wondering if you had a wierd laptop or something
[04:48] <Liz> ahh..heh..no, its not a lappy
[04:48] <Burgundavia> what kind of mouse do you have?
[04:48] <Burgundavia> model #, etc?
[04:49] <Liz> logitech optical mouse m-bj58
[04:50] <Burgundavia> you have the same mouse as me
[04:50] <Liz> dont ya just love it
[04:50] <Burgundavia> how interesting
[04:50] <Liz> i talked my partner into getting the same mouse for his lappy
[04:51] <Burgundavia> Section "InputDevice"
[04:51] <Burgundavia>         Identifier      "Configured Mouse"
[04:51] <Burgundavia>         Driver          "mouse"
[04:51] <Burgundavia>         Option          "CorePointer"
[04:51] <Burgundavia>         Option          "Device"                "/dev/input/mice"
[04:51] <Burgundavia>         Option          "Protocol"              "ImPS/2"
[04:51] <Burgundavia>         Option          "Emulate3Buttons"       "true"
[04:51] <Burgundavia>         Option          "ZAxisMapping"          "4 5"
[04:51] <Burgundavia> EndSection
[04:51] <Burgundavia> that is my mouse section
[04:51] <Burgundavia> what is yours?
[04:52] <Burgundavia> that sounded, never mind
[04:54] <Liz> lol
[04:54] <Liz> hang on and ill have a look
[04:56] <Liz> Section "InputDevice"
[04:56] <Liz> 	Identifier	"Configured Mouse"
[04:56] <Liz> 	Driver		"mouse"
[04:56] <Liz> 	Option		"CorePointer"
[04:56] <Liz> 	Option		"Device"		"/dev/input/mice"
[04:56] <Liz> 	Option		"Protocol"		"ImPS/2"
[04:56] <Liz> 	Option		"Emulate3Buttons"	"true"
[04:56] <Liz> 	Option		"ZAxisMapping"		"4 5"
[04:57] <Liz> EndSection
[04:57] <Liz> thats in XF86Config-4 file
[04:57] <Liz> which is the one im using ..i think
[04:57] <Burgundavia> what does your xorg.conf say?
[04:58] <Liz> same thing
[04:58] <Liz> i just checked to compare them
[04:58] <Burgundavia> that is odd
[04:59] <Liz> but the difference is the monitor
[04:59] <Burgundavia> they are identical
[04:59] <Burgundavia> but yours doesn't work correctly
[04:59] <Liz> yep
[04:59] <Liz> ive had this mouse for well over a year now
[04:59] <Liz> with no problems
[04:59] <Burgundavia> truly odd
[04:59] <Liz> im sure its to do with the xorg.conf file
[05:00] <Liz> neway
[05:00] <Liz> ill brb
[05:00] <Burgundavia> does the xorg/xfree86 file you the configured mouse?
[05:03] <Liz> sorry?..run that past me again?
[05:04] <Liz> i did a dist-upgrade the other day
[05:05] <Liz> i did an update on thursday night..
[05:05] <Liz> friday morning when i went to boot into it
[05:05] <Liz> i got a black screen..and gdm wouldnt open
[05:05] <Liz> no display whatsoever
[05:05] <Burgundavia> sure
[05:06] <Liz> so martinj got me to back up xorg.conf file..and reboot
[05:06] <Liz> it rebooted into xf86.config
[05:06] <Liz> which is what im using now
[05:06] <Burgundavia> ok
[05:06] <Liz> but..now my mouse isnt scrolling
[05:07] <Burgundavia> bug with xfree maybe
[05:07] <Burgundavia> there have been a few fixes to xorg since then
[05:07] <Burgundavia> you might want to try again
[05:08] <Liz> ill do that now then
[05:09] <trickie> Liz, when i did a dist-upgrade it installed xserver-xorg which conflicts with xserver-xfree86
[05:09] <Burgundavia> ?
[05:09] <Liz> i did the dist-upgrade 4 days ago tho
[05:09] <Liz> and it was working fine
[05:09] <Liz> till the update on thursday night
[05:09] <Liz> sorry...5 days ago
[05:10] <trickie> Liz, ok 
[05:10] <trickie> Liz, what i meant is that unless you specified to reinstall xserver-xfree86, you won't have it installed
[05:10] <Burgundavia> this is the 1st day in a few that xorg hasn't been updated
[05:12] <Liz> trickie, no idea how to do that
[05:13] <trickie> Liz, try...  'sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg'
[05:13] <trickie> Liz, from a terminal :)
[05:14] <Liz> ill just wait till the updates done
[05:15] <Liz> ahh..bet thats the problem
[05:15] <Liz> it says no x server known for your video hardware
[05:15] <trickie> Liz, where does it say that?
[05:16] <Liz> that was the first screen when it started up
[05:16] <Liz> its asking for my video cards bus identifier
[05:17] <Liz> sheesh..is onboard..i have no idea about these things
[05:17] <Burgundavia> cya all
[05:18] <trickie> Liz, Is your video card an ATI card>
[05:18] <trickie> ?
[05:19] <Liz> its as sis onboard as far as i know
[05:19] <Liz> hang on..and ill tell you exactly
[05:21] <Liz> info.product type string value 661FX/M661FX/M661MX/741/760/M760 PCI/AGP
[05:25] <trickie> Liz, ok... i don't know what vendor the card is from... i'll have a quick peek. 
[05:25] <Liz> ok..and ill just doa  reboot
[05:25] <Liz> if i dont come back
[05:25] <trickie> Liz, in the meantime can you login with a failsafe terminal
[05:25] <trickie> ?
[05:25] <Liz> you know i screwed up
[05:25] <Liz> adn ill be back from the laptop
[05:25] <Liz> to fix it
[05:25] <Liz> brb
[05:29] <Liz> yay..its working
[05:29] <Liz> even got my mouse going
[05:29] <matt_> hi Liz 
[05:30] <Liz> hi matt_ 
[05:30] <trickie> Liz, awesome
[05:30] <mdke> hi trickie 
[05:30] <trickie> mdke, awesome
[05:30] <Liz> now how do i know which version of x im running?
[05:31] <mdke> X -version
[05:32] <trickie> mdke, hello
[05:33] <Liz> is the lastest release ubuntu 6.8.2-8?
[05:33] <mdke> heh
[05:33] <mdke> not sure
[05:33] <trickie> Liz, i think so
[05:33] <Liz> yay
[05:33] <Liz> then its the latest
[05:33] <trickie> :)
[05:33] <Liz> ill have to remember that dbpk thing
[05:34] <trickie> Liz, yeah it is great... took me while to figure out that is how i can reconfig packages
[05:34] <trickie> Anyway... bbl guys
[05:34] <mdke> bye
[05:34] <Liz> thansk tricikie
[05:34] <Liz> my typing is shocking
[10:14] <froud> The document Ubuntu Device Database is in svn @ https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches/froud/gnome/ubuntu-device-database
[10:14] <froud> if anyone is interested to edit/contribute, go for it
[10:16] <froud> for easy reading a HTML is at http://www.inwords.co.za/ubuntu/device-database/ubuntu-device-database.html
[10:26] <froud> Burgundavia: hi
[10:28] <froud> Burgundavia: what's your take on the DevApp discussion going on in the list
[10:32] <Burgundavia> I agree with you
[10:33] <Burgundavia> that if we present something to mark, he can make it happen
[10:33] <Burgundavia> do we have a machine that we can test docbook wiki on?
[10:33] <Burgundavia> to look at their level of functionality
[10:33] <froud> Yes, but not connected to the network
[10:34] <froud> what about other solutions
[10:34] <Burgundavia> what sort?
[10:34] <Burgundavia> I haven't really read the thread carefully yet
[10:34] <froud> well I mentioned Lenya
[10:34] <froud> and we should look a t plone
[10:35] <froud> but I think plon e will not easily support this
[10:36] <Burgundavia> hmm
[10:36] <Burgundavia> I know next to nothing about cms in general
[10:37] <froud> ok take a look at http://lenya.apache.org
[10:38] <froud> problem with lenya is it is still under heavy devel
[10:38] <froud> but then so would be the case for docbook wiki
[10:39] <froud> what I like with lenya is that it covers revision control, languages, editing, workflow etc
[10:43] <Burgundavia> hmm
[10:45] <Burgundavia> I would say what we need is something to tie tighter into plone
[10:45] <froud> on lenya we will have to extend thier XSLs and do some work on the Cocoon pipes to get full docbook working
[10:45] <froud> why do we need that?
[10:47] <Burgundavia> I guess I have never really understood what the f*ck a cms actually does
[10:47] <froud> manages content
[10:47] <froud> but we need CMS, DMS and KMS
[10:47] <Burgundavia> ?
[10:48] <froud> Document and Knowldge Management Systems
[10:49] <Burgundavia> ok
[10:49] <Burgundavia> I think I am getting past the buzzwords now
[10:49] <Burgundavia> wikipedia to the resque
[10:49] <Burgundavia> rescue
[10:50] <froud> problem with plone is it needs lots ofg work to include aml processing, right?
[10:50] <Burgundavia> aml processing?
[10:50] <froud> xml
[10:51] <Burgundavia> ok
[10:51] <claude> hi
[10:51] <claude> my opinion is lenya is too much for use only by Docteam
[10:52] <claude> needs probably a dedicated admin
[10:52] <froud> why do you say that?
[10:52] <claude> i'm in the process of setting up a cms at work
[10:53] <claude> it's huge work !
[10:53] <froud> what have you used
[10:53] <claude> jahia
[10:53] <claude> ?
[10:53] <froud> jahia is my favorite
[10:53] <froud> but the license issue
[10:53] <claude> yes, we know
[10:54] <froud> I cant see Canonical accpeting it
[10:54] <claude> hmmm
[10:54] <Burgundavia> I guess from my perspective is what can get us writing docs the fastest
[10:54] <Burgundavia> and how do we cut overhead to a bare minimum
[10:54] <claude> we tested plone
[10:55] <claude> and faced some security and performance issues
[10:55] <froud> claude: but jahia support for docbook is not good
[10:55] <claude> froud: don't know because docbook is new for me
[10:55] <froud> claude: I found the perf issue the most both
[10:55] <claude> agreed
[10:56] <froud> Burgundavia: fastest yes, but with integrity
[10:56] <claude> and that's the problem now with ubuntu Wiki
[10:56] <froud> claude: :-)
[10:56] <Burgundavia> integrity <-- what sort do you mean?
[10:56] <claude> Plone is ideal with 80% reading, 20% editing
[10:56] <froud> Burgundavia: we need more than just content
[10:57] <claude> and now there is many contributors
[10:57] <froud> we need indirection
[10:57] <froud> the whole workflow must be taken into account
[10:57] <Burgundavia> ???
[10:58] <froud> and the storage format must be usable in apps other than the web
[10:58] <Burgundavia> I understand your 3rd point
[10:58] <Burgundavia> the 1st 2 got lost in buzzwords
[10:59] <Burgundavia> and I am still uncertain as to the type of itegrity you mean
[10:59] <froud> by indirection i mean the content must be presentation layer neutral
[10:59] <Burgundavia> ok
[10:59] <froud> we need to use the content for more than just the web
[10:59] <Burgundavia> I understand that
[10:59] <froud> this places demands on the integrity of the data storage format
[11:00] <Burgundavia> by workflow I assume you mean creation --> web/print/etc.
[11:00] <Burgundavia> so you mean technical itegrity
[11:00] <Burgundavia> not trustworthy people
[11:00] <froud> at the app layer we also need management of the structure in a way that promotes all our use cases
[11:01] <Burgundavia> huh?
[11:01] <froud> Burgundavia: to setup a CMS is one thing
[11:01] <froud> but to support processes extenal becomes complex
[11:01] <Burgundavia> to make it work is something else?
[11:01] <froud> unless you have a core that supports this
[11:01] <Burgundavia> ok
[11:02] <Burgundavia> in fairly plain english, we need a revision control system
[11:02] <Burgundavia> where the docs sit
[11:02] <froud> the integrity of the core is important
[11:02] <Burgundavia> a method of editing them online
[11:02] <froud> yes
[11:02] <Burgundavia> a method fo editng them offline
[11:02] <froud> yes and off line
[11:02] <Burgundavia> and converters to make the raw text into docbook and wiki and print and etc.
[11:02] <froud> + we would like work flow
[11:03] <Burgundavia> is what i just said work flow?
[11:03] <froud> hmtl pdf rtf ps
[11:03] <Burgundavia> ok
[11:03] <Burgundavia> good
[11:03] <froud> yes an dno
[11:03] <Burgundavia> we are speaking about the same thing
[11:03] <froud> work flow extends to include the development and release cycle
[11:03] <Burgundavia> freezing docs, etc.
[11:03] <froud> you write, I edit, another checks
[11:03] <froud> another releases
[11:04] <Burgundavia> ah
[11:04] <Burgundavia> you want task based roles
[11:04] <froud> all this is managed in th ecore
[11:04] <froud> but the app layer has a work flow
[11:04] <Burgundavia> app layer = what is this?
[11:04] <froud> several layers
[11:04] <froud> above the core
[11:05] <claude> froud: should put the specs on the Docteam Wiki
[11:05] <claude> froud: with a good schema !!
[11:05] <froud> schema you mean xsd or diagram?
[11:05] <claude> yes, sorry
[11:06] <froud> guys have a look at the components section of http://lenya.apache.org/1_2_x/index.html
[11:06] <froud> this will giv eyou some idea
[11:07] <froud> note there is also tasks in addition to roles
[11:10] <Burgundavia> I read through that
[11:10] <Burgundavia> which got my brain working
[11:11] <Burgundavia> about what we really need
[11:11] <Burgundavia> at 30,000 feet
[11:12] <Burgundavia> I think the first task should be delivery of docs
[11:12] <Burgundavia> we already have the infastructure to create them
[11:13] <Burgundavia> thus if we focus on getting a good method on publishing them statically to the web at first, we are far and way ahead
[11:13] <froud> Static pub we already have
[11:13] <Burgundavia> to a website?
[11:13] <froud> yes
[11:14] <froud> we transform to html and mako uploads to his space
[11:14] <Burgundavia> from the svn?
[11:14] <Burgundavia> bah
[11:14] <Burgundavia> we need to make it official
[11:14] <froud> over at kubuntu we have a site
[11:14] <froud> http://www.kubuntu.org.uk
[11:14] <Burgundavia> integrate with the existing wiki or eliminate docs from the wiki
[11:15] <froud> click documentation
[11:15] <Burgundavia> is it advertised?
[11:15] <froud> if you are using kubuntu you know about it
[11:15] <Burgundavia> ok
[11:15] <froud> that document btw is just a plain html from docbook
[11:15] <Burgundavia> but for ubuntu, that doesn't solve our issue
[11:15] <Burgundavia> and for common docs
[11:16] <froud> no cause there is a wiki in the way :-)
[11:16] <froud> kubuntu runs on php
[11:16] <Burgundavia> then lets move all docs out of the wiki
[11:16] <Burgundavia> I don't really care where they are
[11:16] <froud> and host where?
[11:16] <Burgundavia> I just want them in one place
[11:16] <Burgundavia> on ubuntu.com
[11:16] <Burgundavia> just a seperate section
[11:16] <froud> on docteam.ubuntu.com
[11:17] <Burgundavia> what about help.ubuntu.com?
[11:17] <froud> can do
[11:18] <froud> but we have not addressed our problem here
[11:18] <Burgundavia> OT, our proud national police at work: http://vancouver.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=bc_rcmp-carts20050401
[11:18] <Burgundavia> and that is?
[11:18] <froud> we wanted people to write documents in a format that we can use
[11:18] <Burgundavia> true
[11:19] <Burgundavia> ok so we have 2 pressing concerns
[11:19] <Burgundavia> 1. getting all docs into one place
[11:19] <Burgundavia> 2. making those docs editable on the web in a good format
[11:19] <froud> ok that means porting wiki to docbook
[11:19] <Burgundavia> this is why I argued for a seperate wiki
[11:20] <froud> dunno if you have seen how th ei18n stuff is working
[11:20] <Burgundavia> ?
[11:20] <froud> are we speaking about another wiki
[11:20] <froud> or plain hmtl from the transformations
[11:20] <Burgundavia> a webediting system
[11:20] <Burgundavia> eventually
[11:21] <Burgundavia> but at least at first a centralized web publishing system
[11:21] <froud> I agree to get docs written and stored in a single place
[11:21] <Burgundavia> and read from a central place
[11:21] <froud> but you first need the system
[11:21] <Burgundavia> true
[11:21] <froud> then you can port stuff across
[11:21] <Burgundavia> then we can say go to help.ubuntu.com/Networking
[11:21] <Burgundavia> oh
[11:21] <Burgundavia> another thing
[11:21] <froud> if we port and people cant edit there will be screams
[11:21] <Burgundavia> need readable urls
[11:22] <froud> lenya can manage that
[11:22] <Burgundavia> there are some nice Howtos in the wiki right now
[11:22] <froud> yep
[11:22] <Burgundavia> not 
[11:22] <Burgundavia> help.ubuntu.com/QW#%QSDFWE$V^SDFA
[11:22] <Burgundavia> or even
[11:22] <froud> agreed
[11:22] <Burgundavia> blah&asdfasdflj&aljasdf
[11:22] <Burgundavia> english words
[11:23] <froud> well everything you said so far is supporte dby lenya
[11:23] <Burgundavia> but lenya is java
[11:23] <Burgundavia> hmm
[11:23] <froud> I agree we dont need all of lenya immediately
[11:23] <Burgundavia> don't see that going over real well
[11:23] <froud> but it is good to know we can do it and more
[11:23] <Burgundavia> true
[11:23] <froud> what lenya
[11:23] <Burgundavia> lenya apache
[11:23] <froud> tomcat is very secure
[11:23] <froud> and mark said it must stand the security muster
[11:24] <froud> mark agreed to whatever technology providing it is secure
[11:24] <Burgundavia> what about freedom issue?
[11:24] <froud> Burgundavia: apache is free
[11:24] <Burgundavia> java?
[11:25] <froud> yeah they dont like java
[11:25] <claude> we saw with recent openoffice.org 2 that java is a problem now in the open-source world 
[11:25] <froud> but I think that the benfit far out weighs the religious inclinations here
[11:26] <Burgundavia> probably
[11:26] <froud> there is a difference
[11:26] <claude> it's not only religious
[11:26] <froud> we are using it not shipping it
[11:26] <froud> we need a system that works and can standup to high volume of hits
[11:26] <froud> and is secure
[11:27] <froud> we also dont want to spend hours coding
[11:27] <claude> i must recognize that java is the must with these requirements
[11:27] <froud> we want something out the box that matches most needs
[11:27] <claude> but canonical made the zope choice
[11:27] <Burgundavia> however
[11:28] <Burgundavia> mark seemed ready to throw some devs at our issue
[11:28] <froud> how many and how long
[11:28] <froud> ?? anyone knows
[11:28] <Burgundavia> we haven't got an answer to that
[11:28] <froud> :-) no not yet
[11:29] <froud> Burgundavia: java is the solution here
[11:29] <froud> and we get back to the php question
[11:29] <Burgundavia> ah yes
[11:29] <Burgundavia> PHP
[11:29] <Burgundavia> derided by some
[11:29] <froud> why cant we just choose a technology that works
[11:29] <Burgundavia> loved by others
[11:30] <Burgundavia> I am not a dev
[11:30] <froud> imho java is te best and most secure
[11:30] <Burgundavia> so I don't know
[11:30] <Burgundavia> java has freedom issues
[11:30] <Burgundavia> PHP at least does not
[11:30] <froud> the application we run is free
[11:30] <froud> fact that it has a non free run time env is not the point is it
[11:31] <Burgundavia> I guess what it boils down to it is, if mark is willing to put enough devs on it, we can make it work
[11:31] <froud> but first we need a direction
[11:31] <Burgundavia> Ubuntu/Canonical has basically standardized on Plone
[11:31] <Burgundavia> I think we have most of one right now
[11:31] <froud> but plone suck for this 
[11:32] <Burgundavia> can it not suck for this?
[11:32] <froud> not even sure plone will work with the number of users
[11:32] <froud> nice to get a web site up
[11:32] <Burgundavia> well, they must have solved it with malone
[11:32] <froud> but it is not industrial strength
[11:33] <Burgundavia> they are expecting a lot of users with that
[11:33] <froud> we will see
[11:33] <Burgundavia> anyway
[11:33] <Burgundavia> so I will send to the list what we just discussed
[11:33] <froud> yeah
[11:33] <froud> good to record
[11:39] <Burgundavia> 4. Allow easy interlanguage links for docs
[11:39] <Burgundavia> See what wikipedia does with interwiki links, something similar or better
[11:39] <Burgundavia> do you agree?
[11:39] <froud> yes
[11:39] <Burgundavia> ok
[11:42] <Burgundavia> 1. Single source for all docs
[11:42] <Burgundavia> Unify wiki and other sources into a single entry point. help.ubuntu.com was suggested.
[11:42] <Burgundavia> 2. All docs editable at that source
[11:42] <Burgundavia> 3. All docs editable in an offline way, as is already happening
[11:42] <Burgundavia> 4. Allow easy interlanguage links for docs
[11:42] <Burgundavia> See what wikipedia does with interwiki links, something similar or better
[11:42] <Burgundavia> anything I missed?
[11:43] <claude> version control, workflow
[11:43] <Burgundavia> sorry
[11:43] <froud> we discussed it
[11:43] <Burgundavia> thought that was a given
[11:44] <Burgundavia> 5. All docs remain in a form of version control
[11:44] <Burgundavia> 6. System allows easy creation from text to PDF, PS, HTML, etc.
[11:45] <froud> Burgundavia: lenya does that automatically
[11:46] <froud> you just feed it the xml and define what outputs you want
[11:46] <Burgundavia> those are principles to work from
[11:46] <froud> sure
[11:46] <Burgundavia> 2nd section discusses how to do it
[11:46] <froud> fire and forget I say
[11:46] <Burgundavia> Now comes the gritty part, the implementation:
[11:46] <Burgundavia> Option 1: Use exisiting solution. Mark has indicated that he would allow something that check out in a security manner to be run. However, some of these solutions involve Java or PHP. The one that Sean mentioned as solving most of the problems discussed above was Apache Lenya, which is written in Java.
[11:46] <Burgundavia> Option 2: Mark also mentioned that he might be willing to throw some developers at the problem, if we as a team can come up with a specific set of goals. The might involve extending the Plone framework to allow what we need.
[11:47] <froud> ok
[11:47] <Burgundavia> anything I should add?
[11:47] <froud> dude cant think, I have my head in the scripts
[11:47] <Burgundavia> np
[11:47] <claude> put this on the Wiki, and maybe point to Lenya features that accompish the points
[11:47] <froud> shoot it and we will add
[11:47] <Burgundavia> I will send and you can correct
[11:48] <Burgundavia> claude: I am sending to ubuntu-doc
[11:48] <froud> good
[11:48] <Burgundavia> tis done
[11:50] <claude> froud: about the scripts, it was a little bug i think
[11:50] <froud> what bug
[11:50] <claude> missed a "-" in releasenotes-fr.xml
[11:50] <froud> no not know I am building a batch processing system
[11:50] <froud> ok
[11:51] <claude> probably in rebuild-xml-from-po
[11:51] <jsgotangco> hello
[11:51] <jsgotangco> just read the emails
[11:51] <jsgotangco> just came from the mall hehe
[11:51] <froud> I will be reviewing the whole process
[11:52] <froud> jsgotangco: hi
[11:52] <jsgotangco> Burg, froud: it would be nice if the system have a documentation change notice system for both the original author and the approving parties
[11:52] <jsgotangco> so that there is an audit trail for every document change
[11:53] <Burgundavia> like a history>
[11:53] <froud> lenya
[11:53] <Burgundavia> ?
[11:53] <jsgotangco> yes
[11:53] <jsgotangco> that's how we do documentation in an iso9000 environment
[11:57] <jsgotangco> any edits would require approval from someone but i dont think its practical for a wiki system
[11:58] <Burgundavia> ouch
[11:58] <Burgundavia> that is a lot of overhead
[11:58] <jsgotangco> for a wiki yes
[11:58] <Burgundavia> but I can see taht system for things which might be security sensitive
[11:58] <Burgundavia> even for us
[11:59] <Burgundavia> but if we have a robust system in place for broadcasting changes
[11:59] <Burgundavia> ie. email, rss
[12:00] <Burgundavia> then it shouldn't be an issue
[12:00] <Burgundavia> and if we limit edits to logged in users only
[12:00] <Burgundavia> then we can boot those who don't play well
[12:01] <jsgotangco> i think something like that is very much possible but most of these solutions are almost always in php
[12:01] <jsgotangco> *grin*
[12:01] <Burgundavia> as always
[12:15] <jsgotangco> ok ill be having dinner first bbl
[01:14] <mdke> hi
[01:15] <Burgundavia> salut
[01:46] <mdke> i get some much japanese spam
[02:32] <mdke> lol
[02:32] <mdke> claude, my email to you just got blocked by your spam filter
[03:23] <jsgotangco> :D
[03:24] <mdke> hi jsgotangco 
[03:24] <jsgotangco> hi!
[03:24] <jsgotangco> i just read the emails
[03:24] <jsgotangco> does this mean rosetta will be the only way to translate next time?
[03:25] <jsgotangco> that would be welcome since all things translation would be centralized there
[03:26] <mdke> yeah probably
[03:26] <mdke> but the system is so boned right now
[03:26] <jsgotangco> yah i've tried it and it just doest work at  the moment
[03:33] <mdke> jsgotangco, good work on about-ubuntu
[03:34] <jsgotangco> oh thank you my wife and mother in law helped
[03:35] <mdke> mother in law?!?
[03:35] <jsgotangco> yeah nice isnt it
[03:35] <mdke> heh
[03:38] <mdke> you have a good relationship with your mother in law?
[03:38] <mdke> extraordinary
[03:38] <jsgotangco> heh in asian countries that is normal
[03:40] <mdke> oh right
[03:40] <mdke> yeah i forgot you guys don't have the same bitchyness that we do
[03:41] <jsgotangco> hehehe mom in law can get in handy especially with kids
[03:42] <mdke> hmm
[03:42] <mdke> my girlfriend and mother don't have a great relationship
[03:43] <jsgotangco> oh i think its ok in other countries but here, if the mother doesnt like her son's bf thats bad news for the guy
[03:43] <mdke> heh
[03:43] <jsgotangco> because here, the kids stay at home as long as they want to
[03:43] <jsgotangco> even their wives move in in some cases
[03:44] <mdke> omg
[03:44] <mdke> that would be terrible
[03:45] <jsgotangco> yes my mother in law lives with us haha
[03:45] <mdke> nooooooo
[03:45] <mdke> your lucky you get on ok then :)
[03:46] <jsgotangco> it has advantages and disadvantages
[03:46] <jsgotangco> but i guess i grew up in such a culture its already accepted although it sounds so alien to westerners
[03:47] <mdke> yeah
[03:47] <mdke> i think it depends
[03:47] <mdke> on the mother-in-law
[03:47] <mdke> :p
[03:47] <jsgotangco> thats why when some foreigners marry to a local here, they describe it as marrying the whole family haha
[04:13] <mdke> heh
[04:13] <mdke> have you seen My Big Fat Greek Wedding?
[04:13] <mdke> same thing
[04:15] <mdke> afk
[04:35] <jsgotangco> i am watching Rocky III *grin*
[05:17] <jsgotangco> goodnight all!
[05:19] <mdke> nite
[07:46] <froud> claude: I have added transforms for the language we currently have. It's a simple solution. A more eloquent one is on th eway
[08:30] <claude> thanks froud
[08:31] <claude> you can also prepare for the quickguide in French :)
[08:31] <claude> soon !
[08:31] <froud> wow cool
[08:31] <froud> hows your regulat expressions
[08:31] <claude> regulat expressions ?
[08:31] <froud> regular expressions
[08:32] <claude> what do you mean, entities ?
[08:32] <froud> I need to find only files with one -
[08:32] <froud> find -type f -name  ".-.\.xml"
[08:32] <froud> but that doe snot work for me
[08:32] <froud> find -type f -name  "*.xml"
[08:32] <froud> shows all the xml files
[08:32] <froud> I just want the en one
[08:33] <claude> in which directory
[08:33] <froud> lets say aboutubuntu for now
[08:33] <claude> k
[08:37] <claude> easy if you want to find localized ones
[08:37] <froud> :-) yeah
[08:37] <claude> find -type f -name "*-*-??.xml"
[08:38] <froud> yep that one I can do
[08:38] <claude> .name option doen's take real regexp, right ?
[08:38] <froud> I thought *-*.xml
[08:38] <claude> no because the second * also catch the -fr
[08:39] <froud> yes
[08:39] <froud> hate regular expressions but they are so neccesary
[08:41] <froud> -name pattern
[08:41] <froud>               Base of file name (the path with the leading directories removed) matches  shell
[08:41] <froud>               pattern  pattern.  The metacharacters (*', ?', and [] ') do not match a .' at
[08:41] <froud>               the start of the base name.  To ignore a directory and the files under  it,  use
[08:41] <froud>               -prune; see an example in the description of -path.
[08:47] <claude> the problem is that it's not regexp, but wilcards
[08:47] <claude> wildcards
[08:57] <froud> claude: find -type f -regex [^-] +-[^-] +\.xml  
[08:58] <claude> congratulations, you see that regexp is powerful !
[08:59] <froud> yes it is but darn confusing
[08:59] <claude> i think we could have succed also with wildcards
[08:59] <claude> se  http://www.unix.org.ua/orelly/unix/upt/ch15_02.htm
[09:08] <claude> froud i'm going to send you soon other pot files
[09:08] <claude> don't you think it would be time for structure redesign ?
[09:08] <froud> claude: cool I am hacking a really cool script to deal wit all our problems
[09:08] <claude> great
[09:08] <froud> want hoary released
[09:45] <froud> hello sivang
[09:46] <froud> tigodi ata rotze lesot tiergum bishvil kamma mismachim shel lano?
[09:47] <froud> bevakasha
[09:51] <froud> sivang: ping
[09:51] <sivang> froud: poing
[09:51] <sivang> :-)
[09:51] <sivang> froud: ma matzav ach sheli ?
[09:51] <froud> mienyaniem
[09:52] <froud> eifo aita
[09:52] <froud> lo roim ot gha mi azman
[09:59] <claude> grmshhh :)
[09:59] <claude> is it hebrew ?
[09:59] <froud> claude: yes
[10:00] <claude> very difficult to understand :)
[10:00] <froud> claude: one of the languages I collected on my travells
[10:00] <froud> yes :-)
[10:00] <froud> if you dont speak it
[10:01] <froud> I am asking sivang if he will be so kind as to translate the docs to hebrew
[10:01] <claude> i've been once in israel, but in two weeks, i learned nothing :(
[10:01] <froud> It took me about three years
[10:01] <claude> except... shalom !
[10:01] <froud> finally after living there for 10 I can utter a few sentences
[10:02] <claude> is our translating process compatible with right to left languages ?
[10:03] <froud> dunno, but docbook is
[10:03] <claude> it will be interesting to test that
[10:04] <claude> froud: did you see my mail
[10:05] <froud> yes, not sure what you did
[10:05] <claude> that is ?
[10:06] <claude> many xml in only one pot ?
[10:06] <froud> what was the problem with translating each xml
[10:07] <froud> Ah neat
[10:07] <froud> I see now
[10:07] <claude> it makes so many pot files, multiply by number of languages...
[10:07] <froud> but what happens with updates?
[10:08] <claude> i made some simulations, and i believe it's ok
[10:08] <froud> gosh I hope so
[10:08] <froud> I too was beginning to wonder about the number of files
[10:08] <claude> the filename is before each string
[10:09] <claude> i check with msgmerge, that seems ok
[10:09] <froud> cool now how do I use them in the translated document
[10:10] <froud> how does the entity know to include the section of text in the combined file
[10:10] <froud> for example a document in french will still have &conventions;
[10:11] <claude> yes, that's another problem
[10:11] <froud> which looks for the file conventions.xml in common/
[10:11] <froud> ok stick with me on this
[10:11] <claude> do you know if we can overload the entities ?
[10:11] <froud> let me sketch how I was going to do it
[10:12] <froud> you see th etop lines in the xml document
[10:12] <froud> this
[10:12] <froud> <!DOCTYPE article PUBLIC "-//OASIS//DTD DocBook XML V4.1.2//EN" 
[10:12] <froud> 	"http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.1.2/docbookx.dtd" [
[10:12] <froud> <!ENTITY % xinclude SYSTEM "../libs/xinclude.mod">
[10:12] <froud> %xinclude;
[10:12] <froud> <!ENTITY % globalent SYSTEM "../libs/global.ent">
[10:12] <froud> %globalent;
[10:12] <froud> ] >
[10:12] <claude> k
[10:12] <froud> the global.ent defines which files to use
[10:13] <froud> in order to satisfy entities
[10:13] <froud> for example in libs/global.ent
[10:13] <froud> <!ENTITY distro-version SYSTEM '../VERSION'>
[10:13] <froud> <!ENTITY distro-rev SYSTEM '../REVISION'>
[10:14] <froud> whenever &distro-version; appears
[10:14] <claude> wait a minute, i must catch our rabbit :)
[10:14] <froud> it is expanded with the content in the file ../VERSION
[10:14] <froud> k
[10:15] <froud> while you are away
[10:15] <froud> in quickguide.xml the entity &copyright; appears
[10:15] <claude> bb
[10:15] <froud> go
[10:16] <froud> the value for &copyright; is defined in global.ent as
[10:16] <froud> <!ENTITY copyright SYSTEM '../common/copyright.xml'>
[10:16] <froud> so the content in ../common/copyright.xml is expanded into the document during processing time
[10:17] <claude> i understand
[10:17] <froud> now all we need is a global-fr.ent
[10:17] <froud> to define what files are used for french
[10:17] <claude> and replace global.ent by global-fr.ent in each file ?
[10:17] <froud> so translators dont change &copyright;
[10:18] <froud> only once
[10:18] <froud> in the french file
[10:18] <froud> and for it in the it file
[10:18] <froud> common objects are so named because they are reused over and again
[10:19] <froud> once it is sone once, it just gets reused
[10:19] <froud> so if you have 100 docs
[10:19] <froud> each with the same copyright
[10:19] <froud> they all use the same copyright.xml
[10:19] <claude> i understand this
[10:20] <froud> for all fr docs will use copyright-fr.xml
[10:20] <claude> you did'nt reply to my previous question
[10:20] <froud> defined in global-fr.ent
[10:20] <froud> as
[10:20] <froud> <!ENTITY copyright SYSTEM '../common/copyright-fr.xml'>
[10:20] <froud> lemme see
[10:20] <froud> sorry what was it again
[10:21] <claude> and replace global.ent by global-fr.ent in each file ?
[10:21] <froud> example
[10:21] <froud> <!DOCTYPE book PUBLIC "-//OASIS//DTD DocBook XML V4.1.2//EN" 
[10:21] <froud> 	"http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.1.2/docbookx.dtd" [
[10:21] <froud> <!ENTITY % xinclude SYSTEM "../libs/xinclude.mod">
[10:21] <froud> %xinclude;
[10:21] <froud> <!ENTITY % globalent SYSTEM "../libs/global-fr.ent">
[10:21] <froud> %globalent;
[10:21] <froud> ] >
[10:22] <froud> this one change instead of changing all the entities
[10:22] <claude> ok, that modification should be made in every xml file
[10:22] <froud> yes all except en
[10:23] <froud> each lang has a global.ent
[10:23] <claude> s/global.ent/global-xx.ent/
[10:23] <froud> yes :-)
[10:23] <froud> what do you think?
[10:23] <claude> do you know if other systems exist ?
[10:24] <claude> for me, it's a good one
[10:24] <froud> they all require external processing
[10:24] <froud> i think if we can keep it xml it is better
[10:25] <claude> yes, but every time you change the global.ent, you should update the l10n ones
[10:25] <froud> yes we can limit this
[10:26] <froud> by splitting the entities
[10:26] <froud> for example some einities are URLs
[10:26] <froud> they can be common.ent
[10:26] <froud> all files regardless of lang can use them
[10:26] <claude> a global that is really global, and a global specific to each language
[10:26] <froud> :-)
[10:27] <claude> but URL could also be localized
[10:27] <froud> Hmm, eg
[10:27] <claude> mailing list web page
[10:28] <claude> or when the ubuntulinux web site will be localized :)
[10:28] <froud> Hmm yes, in which case that will have to be in lang ent file
[10:28] <froud> but authors wont
[10:28] <froud> <!ENTITY author-christoph-haas SYSTEM '../common/authors/christoph-haas.xml'>
[10:28] <froud>         <!ENTITY author-alexander-poslavsky SYSTEM '../common/authors/alexander-poslavsky.xml'>
[10:28] <froud>         <!ENTITY author-alan-hood SYSTEM '../common/authors/alan-hood.xml'>
[10:28] <froud>         <!ENTITY author-johnathon-hornbeck SYSTEM '../common/authors/johnathon-hornbeck.xml'>
[10:28] <froud>         <!ENTITY author-nick-loeve SYSTEM '../common/authors/nick-loeve.xml'>
[10:28] <froud>         <!ENTITY author-gordon-ingram SYSTEM '../common/authors/gordon-ingram.xml'>
[10:28] <froud>         <!ENTITY author-sean-wheller SYSTEM '../common/authors/sean-wheller.xml'>
[10:28] <froud>         <!ENTITY author-enrico-zini SYSTEM '../common/authors/enrico-zini.xml'>
[10:28] <froud>         <!ENTITY author-kevin-muligan SYSTEM '../common/authors/kevin-muligan.xml'>
[10:28] <froud>         <!ENTITY author-ari-torhamo SYSTEM '../common/authors/ari-torhamo.xml'>
[10:28] <froud>         <!ENTITY author-jeff-schering SYSTEM '../common/authors/jeff-schering.xml'>
[10:28] <froud>         <!ENTITY author-corey-burger SYSTEM '../common/authors/corey-burger.xml'>
[10:28] <froud>         <!ENTITY author-niel-tallim SYSTEM '../common/authors/niel-tallim.xml'>
[10:29] <claude> ok, ok i see... !
[10:29] <claude> :)
[10:29] <claude> i see some have not only their names, but also functions
[10:29] <froud> should not be
[10:29] <claude> not sure of this
[10:30] <froud> <!ENTITY author-christoph-haas SYSTEM '../common/authors/christoph-haas.xml'>
[10:30] <froud>         <!ENTITY author-alexander-poslavsky SYSTEM '../common/authors/alexander-poslavsky.xml'>
[10:30] <froud>         <!ENTITY author-alan-hood SYSTEM '../common/authors/alan-hood.xml'>
[10:30] <froud>         <!ENTITY author-johnathon-hornbeck SYSTEM '../common/authors/johnathon-hornbeck.xml'>
[10:30] <froud>         <!ENTITY author-nick-loeve SYSTEM '../common/authors/nick-loeve.xml'>
[10:30] <froud>         <!ENTITY author-gordon-ingram SYSTEM '../common/authors/gordon-ingram.xml'>
[10:30] <froud>         <!ENTITY author-sean-wheller SYSTEM '../common/authors/sean-wheller.xml'>
[10:30] <froud>         <!ENTITY author-enrico-zini SYSTEM '../common/authors/enrico-zini.xml'>
[10:30] <froud>         <!ENTITY author-kevin-muligan SYSTEM '../common/authors/kevin-muligan.xml'>
[10:30] <froud>         <!ENTITY author-ari-torhamo SYSTEM '../common/authors/ari-torhamo.xml'>
[10:30] <froud>         <!ENTITY author-jeff-schering SYSTEM '../common/authors/jeff-schering.xml'>
[10:30] <froud>         <!ENTITY author-corey-burger SYSTEM '../common/authors/corey-burger.xml'>
[10:30] <froud>         <!ENTITY author-niel-tallim SYSTEM '../common/authors/niel-tallim.xml'>
[10:30] <froud> opps
[10:30] <froud> sorry
[10:30] <froud> umm. the advantage I see is translate once and use often
[10:30] <froud> cuts down on translators work
[10:31] <froud> disadvantage is we have many files
[10:31] <claude> do you use biblio.xml now ?
[10:31] <froud> but at some point this should stabilize
[10:31] <froud> no
[10:31] <froud> yelp dont support it
[10:32] <froud> btw with docbook all generated texts are already done
[10:32] <claude> i did'nt include it in common.pot
[10:32] <claude> already done ?
[10:32] <froud> yes docbooks has a full set of generated texts
[10:33] <froud> for example if you have a Chapter 1
[10:33] <froud> the word Chapter is generated text
[10:33] <froud> you dont type it inmanually
[10:33] <froud> it picks up what to do by the attribute lang="" on the root element
[10:34] <froud> eg lang="fr'
[10:35] <claude> where should it be ?
[10:35] <froud> the root element
[10:35] <froud> <book lang="en" id="quickguide">
[10:36] <claude> and where is this directive
[10:36] <froud> In the Docbook XSLs
[10:37] <froud> At time of processing the correct gentext files are selected
[10:37] <froud> if lang is null defaults to en
[10:37] <claude> in what file exactly for the quickguide ?
[10:37] <froud> in the xml file itself
[10:38] <froud> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
[10:38] <froud> <!DOCTYPE book PUBLIC "-//OASIS//DTD DocBook XML V4.1.2//EN" 
[10:38] <froud> 	"http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.1.2/docbookx.dtd" [
[10:38] <froud> <!ENTITY % xinclude SYSTEM "../libs/xinclude.mod">
[10:38] <froud> %xinclude;
[10:38] <froud> <!ENTITY % globalent SYSTEM "../libs/global.ent">
[10:38] <froud> %globalent;
[10:38] <froud> ] >
[10:38] <froud> <!-- PROCESSING INSTRUCTION FOR GNOME YELP uncomment for use in Yelp -->
[10:38] <froud> <?yelp:chunk-depth 3?>
[10:38] <froud> <book lang="en" id="quickguide">
[10:38] <froud>     <title>&inline-ubuntu-icon; <phrase>Quick Guide</phrase>
[10:38] <claude> i'm blind...
[10:38] <froud> tired
[10:39] <claude> :)
[10:39] <froud> at processing time the xsl and xml are input to xsltproc
[10:39] <froud> the xsl tests for lang
[10:39] <claude> this should be fixed by the scripts when recreating the xml from po
[10:40] <froud> yes
[10:40] <froud> sed
[10:40] <froud> this is why I take so long for the scripts
[10:41] <claude> in the same manner than global.ent
[10:41] <froud> the script also makes pot files
[10:41] <froud> also does msmerge if required etc
[10:41] <froud> yes
[10:41] <froud> test -n "$VERBOSE" && echo xml2pot $i $j
[10:41] <froud> 	    xml2pot ../../../$i > $m/$j.pot.new
[10:42] <froud> 	    if test -s $m/$j.pot.new; then
[10:42] <froud> 		msgmerge -o $m/$j.pot.new -i $m/$j.pot.new $m/$j.pot.new 2> /dev/null
[10:42] <froud> 		if ! cmp -s $m/$j.pot.new $m/$j.pot; then
[10:42] <froud> 		    mv $m/$j.pot.new $m/$j.pot
[10:42] <froud> 		else
[10:42] <froud> 		    rm $m/$j.pot.new
[10:42] <froud> 		fi
[10:42] <froud> 	    fi
[10:42] <froud> this was taken from kde
[10:42] <claude> fiouuu
[10:42] <froud> wip
[10:42] <froud> work in progress
[10:42] <froud> does not work yet
[10:43] <froud> well, you think this system can work
[10:44] <claude> of course, if it came from you :)
[10:44] <froud> because if I have a single pot I dont know how to create the xml's and expand them into the docs at proc
[10:44] <froud> claude: I am going but the seat of my pants with this i18n stuff
[10:45] <froud> question?
[10:45] <froud> how can I automate the upload of a new or modified pot to rosetta
[10:45] <froud> the same for po files
[10:45] <claude> that should be asked to carlos or daff
[10:46] <claude> but rosetta still have many problems
[10:46] <froud> if we have 100 p files changed because of an edit I dont want to upload them one at a time
[10:46] <froud> I want a fire and forget process
[10:46] <claude> of course
[10:46] <froud> I want a perfect world!!!
[10:46] <froud> I want it now
[10:47] <claude> quiet please
[10:47] <froud> I want my dummies
[10:47] <claude> :)
[10:47] <froud> oh shoot this i18n stuff is gonna be a bug challenge
[10:48] <claude> yes, but it's very important
[10:48] <froud> s/bug/big
[10:48] <froud> very
[10:48] <froud> well I am going back to this script
[10:48] <claude> when there is an english word every two sentences, that makes very amateur
[10:49] <claude> ok, i let you work
[10:49] <froud> ok
[10:49] <claude> if i can help...
[11:14] <claude> froud: sorry, but do you know why xml2pot with xml files in menus doesn't produce anything (except header) ?
[11:14] <claude> xml2pot common/menus/accessories.xml
[11:14] <froud> Hmm no have not tested
[11:14] <froud> what comand ar eyou runing
[11:15] <froud> lemme see
[11:15] <claude> see above
[11:21] <froud> wierd
[11:23] <claude> do you want that i post to the list ?
[11:23] <froud> to translators lists
[11:23] <froud> would be a good idea
[11:44] <froud> claude: seems parser.cpp does not support touching menuchoice elements
[11:47] <froud> claude: we will need our own script for this
[11:47] <claude> heh
[11:48] <froud> within normal context it would not make sense to create a po for menuchoice since it is used inline
[11:48] <froud> however in our context it does make sense
[11:49] <claude> could we use another xml tag for this ?
[11:49] <froud> no
[11:49] <claude> k, so let's script :)
[11:49] <froud> howver if the menuchoice is wrapped in sect1 it does work
[11:50] <froud> but I will script it anyway it is will be neater
[11:50] <claude> thx