=== jbailey [~jbailey@CPE000ded9d787c-CM014260028338.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:50] urgh, looks like Branden won DPL [02:51] yep === zul [~chuck@CPE0006258ec6c2-CM000a73655d0e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:52] hopefully he's a better DPL than I think he'll be === schweeb cries [02:52] I don't think we'll have a problem with that :) [02:52] who got elected? been living in a hole all weekend [02:53] Brandon Robinson [02:53] Branden [02:53] e [02:53] ah...the x guy? [02:53] yep [02:53] yea ;_; [02:53] isn't DPL that thing that mjg59 was supposed to be? [02:53] .... [02:53] WTFOMGLOLBBQ [02:53] desrt: he was running for DPL, yes [02:53] how can you elect branden [02:54] i have no idea what DPL is, but i suspect the "d" means debian [02:54] thats almost as bad as voting for kerry [02:54] debian project leader [02:54] and the "pl" means "project leader" now that i think about it === tseng hides [02:54] tseng: <3 tseng! [02:54] <3 ! [02:54] tseng: if gentoo had elections there would be some people i wouldnt elect but the point is moot.. [02:55] zul: meh, people in gentoo elected me [02:55] whats that tell you [02:55] you would be one of the few i would elect [02:55] what's the point of having elections if you never release anything? [02:55] flame wars of course [02:55] right. [02:55] thats a misinformed comment [02:55] imo. [02:56] i admittedly know very little about debian [02:56] i installed it once and found out all the software was 2 years old [02:56] then it went away [02:57] thats another misinformed comment [02:57] well. it's an account of actual events. [02:57] and i lived those events [02:57] there are multiple branches [02:57] well, i wasn't running sid [02:57] you were running woody [02:58] the funny thing is, there are machines I _want_ Woody running on [02:58] yes. i think i was. [02:58] you *need* to have a stable distribution with modern software in it, though [02:58] I don't even trust my servers to woody anymore [02:58] linux moves pretty quickly. 2 years ago is relatively unusable compared to what's available today [02:58] brb [02:59] they just keep coming [03:00] to be fair, though, I don't think there's a distro quite like Debian. I'll happily slap it on for a server and not think twice. [03:01] crimsun: yes [03:01] i used debian as the basis for a thin client image a while ago. it was the best distro for that. [03:01] I use sarge now though for servers [03:02] it had like Xfree3 at the time (4 was out, but not xorg, i don't think) but who cares? it worked nicely. [03:02] and having a single-executable X server was sort of nice anyway [03:02] sure made debugging simpler [03:03] and the entire dpkg/apt concept is really interesting and strange [03:03] the fact that you can go between entire distributions by changing your apt sources and reinstalling some stuff is pretty cool [03:04] i'm suprised that even works at all [03:04] nevermind the fact that it works *well* from what i understand [03:04] well, if you're using Ubuntu, that's testament to how well it works ;) [03:05] right. but i installed ubuntu off of an ubuntu install cd [03:05] i should hope that works properly :) [03:05] i mean more if you have a debian system and want to move it to ubuntu [03:05] yep, it does work. [03:06] I migrated 20 machine from woody (or sarge or sid) to warty [03:06] machines [03:06] generally, how do the debian folks feel about ubuntu? [03:07] more or less a mixed bag? [03:07] alot of them work for canonical :P [03:07] some of them are bitterly opposed, the rest are cool with it [03:07] yeah, it's across the board [03:07] (as expected) [03:07] i went in #debian on the day i installed ubuntu asking something about how to override package dependancies with dpkg [03:08] i accidentally mentioned that i was running ubuntu -> kickban [03:08] #debian isnt a warm fuzzy [03:08] ya [03:08] i learned that a bit later [03:08] they didn't hate me because i use ubuntu. they hated me because i'm a person :) [03:08] they dont want basic user questions [03:08] or any questions really [03:09] meh. [03:09] that last time i frequented there was when it was on OPN [03:09] irc used to be a lot nicer [03:09] mwilson personifies all that is wrong with the debian community (or at least he used to) [03:10] you could actually get help in help channels [03:10] mwilson usually is such a douche it makes me ssmile [03:10] he's funny [03:10] and actually talk about project development in devel channels [03:10] even this morning i commited the faux pas of using a devel channel for help :P [03:10] (though i choose to blame crimsun) [03:11] hey now, I did migrate it to #ubuntu [03:11] :) [03:11] i blame everyone [03:11] time to sleep [03:11] cha. [03:11] night tseng [03:11] bye. [03:11] so, i guess i should ask [03:11] say i want to package up the latest abiword [03:11] and have it in hoary [03:11] can i do that here? [03:12] assuming you mean breezy, yeah [03:12] ah. afraid of that. [03:12] (nothing's going into hoary save security updates) [03:12] well, it's not as bad as you might think :P [03:12] breezy will probably open in ~2 weeks [03:12] right [03:12] but i'm not insane enough to install breezy on computers that aren't my own :) [03:13] ok.. so as i understand it [03:13] when breeze 'opens', a snapshot is taken of sid [03:13] and ubuntu packages are added [03:14] and anything not explicitly added/maintained by the ubuntu people remains frozen at the version it was at when sid was branched [03:14] more realistically, everything's synced/merged from current sid [03:14] that will affect mostly universe [03:14] hmm [03:14] but the end result is that new sid packages will get in [03:14] a "sync" is a straight pulling of Sources.gz [03:15] and a building on Ubuntu's buildds [03:15] at that exact instant and no other time [03:15] nope, we can ask for syncs from sid at any time [03:15] oh. that's nice. [03:15] on a package-by-package basis or the entire shot in one go at predetermined times? [03:16] jeff was explaining this to me before... he said that the reason that abiword was so old was because it was version-frozen at the sid branch point [03:18] well, the "all sid" sync is done at the opening === zerokarmaleft [~zerokarma@ip68-12-45-133.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [03:19] from then on, "all sid" is fairly rare [03:19] hmm [03:19] we ask for package syncs on a much more frequent basis [03:19] that's why community involvement is vital for universe and multiverse [03:19] there are something like a dozen of us universe maintainers [03:20] hmm [03:20] so if i'm lazy [03:20] and i like abiword [03:20] only about half were actually given upload privileges by Hoary's timeframe [03:20] then i can badger a master of the universe to pull in a more-up-to-date abiword? [03:21] well, we can't sync ourselves, but we ask our ftpmasters to sync for us [03:21] on the other hand, we can upload completely new packages that aren't in Sid [03:21] (they, too, have to be hand-approved by an ftpmaster just as they must be in Debian) [03:22] strange. [03:22] is there a freeze during the release cycle at which point new universe packages are disallowed? [03:22] nope [03:22] huh [03:23] we can push new packages in right up until the release (which we did) [03:23] so an up to date abiword could have made it into hoary if i was here a week or two ago? [03:23] "a week or two"? doubtful. [03:23] maybe one month ago. [03:23] because you were too busy? [03:24] and you would have had to have done a heck of a lot of work to ensure it installs/upgrades/removes cleanly. [03:24] or because the ftpmasters are a bit picky about what goes in toward the end [03:24] desrt: yeah, we were all extremely pressed for time. [03:24] hmm [03:24] ok [03:24] starting to get an idea [03:24] desrt: about 7 people in charge of 15000 packages ... yeah ... [03:25] and universe can contain stuff that's not even in debian... [03:25] correct. [03:25] (it does) [03:25] so, multiverse is solely for the purpose of packages of questional legality? [03:25] *questionable [03:25] license-wise and other, yes [03:26] cool. [03:26] take a look at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MOTU [03:26] i always thought universe was debian stuff and multiverse was stuff that debian refused to package [03:26] oh man, speaking of refusing, we're going to see apt-get.org in breezy... [03:27] I cringe at the idea, but it's going to happen, and we're going to make it work. [03:27] it gives me the fear [03:27] it'll definitely be challenging === HostingGeek [~HG@200.48.233.220.exetel.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-motu [03:30] apt-get.org = a bunch of 3rd party packages? [03:30] yep [03:30] neat. [03:30] simultaneously neat and hair-ripping ;) [03:31] neat for me [03:31] stressful for you :) [03:32] you should consider joining MOTU if you'd like to help :) [03:32] i have a problem [03:32] i like to help with a lot of things [03:32] so i commit to a lot of projects and have not enough time to contribute a proper amount of time to them all [03:32] so i'm actively trying to not do that anymore :) [03:32] I encourage you to at least become a member [03:33] right. but if i become a member i feel bad when i hardly do any work [03:33] well, help out when you can. [03:33] there's no obligation [03:33] speaking of membership [03:33] of course it's kinda expected if you actually gain maintainership, which is a different step at this point === schweeb checks for the next CC meeting [03:34] Wed 13 Apr 04:00 UTC Community Council [03:34] well [03:34] what does 'membership' mean? [03:34] actually [03:35] i'll just read some wiki :) [03:35] 0400 UTC = 1100 EST? [03:35] DanielTChen (crimsun) audio and ALSA specialist [03:36] schweeb: yes. Or for me, since I'm in EDT, it's midnight. [03:36] i wouldn't mind maintaining haskell [03:36] desrt: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewDevelopersAndMaintainers [03:36] the Members list is sadly outdated [03:36] ah, I take it you're in IN [03:37] schweeb: nope, NC. [03:37] hrm [03:37] maybe I'm in EDT now too === schweeb can never remember [03:38] date will tell you :) [03:38] the switchover was last weekend [03:38] guess I'm EDT :) [03:38] hi [03:39] anyways, I'm up for membership at the next meetin [03:39] lo ajmitch_ [03:39] evenin [03:39] schweeb: excellent! [03:39] must be afternoon for ajmitch_? [03:39] then, hopefully soon, I'll be MOTU [03:39] gotta start working on more packages for that though :) [03:39] schweeb: look forward to it :) [03:40] crimsun; ya. the wikipage says that i should be active if i'm a member :) [03:41] active can mean any number of things though [03:41] desrt: the onus is less than that if you were to be a maintainer ;) [03:41] yeah, afternoon here for me [03:41] participating in IRC, mailing lists, etc... is considered activity [03:41] weird. [03:41] killing time before I go & do work in 15min at uni :) [03:41] participating in IRC is considered, for me, avoiding other things that i should be doing :) [03:42] irc definitely counts [03:42] crimsun; so what if i find myself a little niche to take care of? [03:42] desrt: then go for it :) [03:42] i'm upstream for gnome, fd.o and haskell [03:42] gnome and fd.o are well-represented in ubuntu already but haskell isn't so much [03:42] desrt: a couple or a few packages you'd have an active hand in is the best way to start [03:43] thing is, debian already does a fairly decent job with haskell... i know the packager. he's a nice guy :) [03:43] work with him [03:43] the only real problem is latency [03:44] we try to maintain a very good and close relationship with our Debian maintainer/developer counterparts [03:44] that's good policy [03:44] after all, the entire point is that changes flow freely and frequently between our two distros [03:44] does ubuntu have a buildfarm? [03:44] oh yes. [03:44] yep [03:45] it's ver-ah nice-ah. [03:45] so even though i don't have an amd64 box, i can still package amd64 binaries [03:45] couldn't survive without it [03:45] yep [03:45] sweet [03:45] we do amd64, powerpc, and i386 officially, but there are also ia64 builds [03:45] at some point, I suspect sparc and hppa will appear [03:45] oh man [03:46] i almost forgot the best part about ubuntu [03:46] sweet sweet vendor patches [03:46] except for the ones that mess with nautilus [03:46] desrt: we upload source packages, and watch the buildlogs, so we don't need the machines ourselves :) [03:47] my personal habit with ghc is that i tend to commit a bunch of changes right *after* the releases :) [03:48] so should i ask my debian friend to show me the ropes about what's involved with creating a package? [03:48] check DeveloperResources [03:48] it has a bunch of stuff that's essential [03:48] Debian new maintainer's guide, for instance, though I'd policy and developer's manuals [03:49] I'd add^ [03:52] heh [03:52] so i asked him [03:52] he says that i should package other haskell-related stuff for debian :) [03:54] that'd be a great way to get involved :) [03:54] ya. honestly, though, i don't care very much about debian :) [03:55] you should [03:55] it's one of the most significant open source projects out there [03:57] I dislike the image of Debian and Ubuntu competing, though I willingly admit one's "better" for my desktop needs out of the box [03:58] things that help one help the other, and that's the way it should be [03:58] right... except in terms of automatic package importing, the relationship is only one-way, right? [03:58] ubuntu is no more competing with debian than progeny and the like [03:58] desrt: it's meant to be quite 2 way [03:58] i mean... in theory, shouldn't the masters of the universe not exist at all if the sharing was complete? [03:59] we'd just all share debian's universe and be happy [03:59] no [03:59] MOTUs tame the Debian packages into working with Ubuntu's main [03:59] hmm [03:59] since main often has newer versions, etc... [03:59] but new packages, ideally, go into debian, right? [04:00] there's a reasonable number of packages that are in Ubuntu that aren't in Debian [04:00] especially mono related stuff [04:00] like, I packaged gsf-sharp, which Debian doesn't have [04:00] i guess that's the crux of my question. why aren't they in debian? [04:01] because no one's added them to Debian's NEW yet [04:01] desrt: yes, ideally. There aren't really that many of us MOTUs who are both Debian and Ubuntu maintainers/developers [04:01] so wouldn't it be more efficient to add packages to debian instead of to ubuntu? [04:01] Ubuntu has a lower barrier to entry for packaging than Debian for the most part [04:01] ok. that makes a lot of sense, then. [04:02] Debian has a much stricter entry bar, yes. [04:02] [04:02] we actively try to improve upon Ubuntu [04:02] if upstream Debian happens to accept our changes, great [04:03] we try to share our work as much as possible [04:04] so... i should make packages for ubuntu and hope they get accepted upstream? === Burgundavia [~corey@24.68.134.11] has joined #ubuntu-motu [04:04] pretty much [04:05] if you want to communicate with some DDs and get yoru packages accepted to NEW, great [04:06] nod. i just heard the debian side of things [04:06] the plan is to stick with ubuntu for now === niran [~niran@lucianus.Stanford.EDU] has joined #ubuntu-motu [04:06] i like to be able to use the benifits of my work [04:07] i'm not very altruistic about these things :) [04:07] my debian friend convinced me of one thing - not to duplicate his work. so i'm not going to package ghc. [04:08] basically separating our development from Debian's allows us a bit more freedom than if we had to wait for all of our development to hit upstream Debian [04:11] hmm [04:11] according to the debian guidelines, a library is a bad choice [04:11] eh, ignore that [04:11] the good news is that it's a library that nothing will use :) [04:12] those aren't so much guidelines as recommendations [04:12] As an example, I'll use a program called `gentoo', an X GTK+ file manager. Note that the program is already packaged, and has changed substantially from the version while this text was first written. [04:12] *classic* [04:14] ok. the program i want to package depends on having gecko around [04:14] but i can do --disable-mozilla, for a reduction in functionality [04:14] the mono stuff, or ...? [04:14] libgtk2hs [04:15] or 'gtk2hs' i should say [04:15] ironically, my friend from school wrote the mozilla bindings for this package :) [04:15] (and now i am disabling them) [04:15] oh, you'll probably want to build against mozilla-firefox-dev in that case [04:16] oh. interesting. [04:16] ok. let's see [04:18] ya. that's not good enough [04:19] oh weird. it might be time for a patch. [04:21] ok. patched configure.ac to look for firefox-gtkembed instead of mozilla-gtkembed === desrt digs into 'control' [04:34] so.. because i'm doing a library i have to deal with -dev [04:34] yep [04:34] here's the thing... haskell isn't really normal [04:34] and the soname would go in the binary name [04:34] and all that $funstuff [04:35] if you install this package, you're going to want the whole deal [04:35] in other words, it doesn't make sense to just install that lib? [04:35] the standard foo/foo-dev division doesn't make much sense here [04:36] desrt: there's no haskell packaging policy? [04:36] I was just going to ask that, thom [04:36] but I don't think there is [04:36] desrt: (for debian, i mean) [04:36] well.. going by c2hs, for example [04:36] there is no c2hs-dev [04:37] there's another thing too [04:37] when a new ghc gets installed, gtk2hs needs to be reinstalled [04:38] and similarly, when a new gtk2hs gets installed, all the programs built using it need to be rebuilt too (this isn't as important, since at the moment, everything is statically linked) [04:39] it's sort of a similar situation to kernel modules, i guess [04:40] it's not that the gtk2hs code has changed to match the new ghc version... it's more that any code linked together has to be compiled with exactly the same version of ghc [04:48] k. found some policy. [05:03] i've just convinced myself that i can't do this [05:03] there's a reason that gtk2hs isn't packaged by debian yet. it's extremely difficult. === tritium [~mrimbert@12-202-90-180.client.insightBB.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:14] morning tritium [05:14] err, I guess it's still night [05:14] hello crimsun :) [05:15] the clock on my live cd session is on UTC [05:15] What's up? [05:15] What are you doing on a LiveCD session? [05:15] not much, I've been amazingly productive today thanks to a Ubuntu 5.04 livcd [05:15] live cd [05:15] Fantastic! Away from your office? [05:16] well, the XP install was acting up, so I decided to let the administrators deal with that mess. I popped in a livecd and rebooted. ;) [05:16] Sounds like a good plan. [05:17] yeah, it's very nice. Have you had a good weekend? [05:17] Yes, quite good, thanks. Yourself? [05:17] not too bad [05:18] Glad to hear it. [05:30] I wonder what my uptime will be on this livecd session ;) [05:31] Where is the computer you're running it on? [05:31] my office :) [05:31] Ah, wow. You're working late, particularly for a Sunday night. === ajmitch returns [05:32] yeah, some last-minute grading, then I'm heading home [05:32] wb ajmitch_ [05:32] What course? [05:34] programming language concepts [05:35] we're about to wrap up OOP [05:35] finishing concurrency [05:35] That's great. === schweeb flags crimsun as the enemy === schweeb is a student :) [05:41] crimsun; you're a prof? [05:46] desrt: yep [05:47] uh oh ;) [05:47] haha [05:47] like I said, the enemy ;) [05:48] I'll say this much: I didn't appreciate the amount of work my professors must have put in behind the scenes [05:48] this is hard work === Burgundavia [~corey@24.68.134.11] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:49] either that, or you just haven't found the most efficient way to procrastinate yet :) [05:49] I'm sure it's that, too :) [05:49] I want to run a package list through apt-cache to see if we have them [05:50] how is the list delimited? [05:50] the problme is that as soon as apt-cache fails to find one, it dies and takes the pipe with it [05:50] newlines [05:50] which apt-cache action are you using? [05:50] hmm [05:50] just a sec [05:50] crimsun; i'm going that way [05:50] this is a case of "I think I just figured it out" [05:51] desrt: excellent [05:51] i TA right now. aparantly i'm pretty good at it too. [05:51] Burgundavia: you could always download Packages.gz from the sources and parse that [05:51] and it's as fun as hell [05:51] desrt: TA? [05:51] teaching assistant [05:51] what does that entail? [05:51] I would have suggested for i in $(cat foo); do apt-cache policy "$i"; done [05:51] teaching tutorials, labs, etc [05:51] sometimes marking [05:51] right [05:51] schweeb, that is what I am doing === ajmitch is just a lab demonstrator, helps out with the labs [05:52] also a student for a few more weeks :) [05:52] Burgundavia: why do you need apt-cache then? === dholbach [~daniel@td9091cbf.pool.terralink.de] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:52] hey dholbach! [05:53] hey [05:53] schweeb, ok, I am slightly confused [05:53] Hi dholbach [05:53] hey tritium [05:53] morning dholbach [05:53] hey crimsun... morning indeed :-) [05:53]