[02:50] <schweeb> urgh, looks like Branden won DPL
[02:51] <crimsun> yep
[02:52] <schweeb> hopefully he's a better DPL than I think he'll be
[02:52] <crimsun> I don't think we'll have a problem with that :)
[02:52] <zul> who got elected?  been living in a hole all weekend
[02:53] <crimsun> Brandon Robinson
[02:53] <schweeb> Branden
[02:53] <crimsun> e
[02:53] <zul> ah...the x guy?
[02:53] <crimsun> yep
[02:53] <schweeb> yea ;_;
[02:53] <desrt> isn't DPL that thing that mjg59 was supposed to be?
[02:53] <tseng> ....
[02:53] <tseng> WTFOMGLOLBBQ
[02:53] <schweeb> desrt: he was running for DPL, yes
[02:53] <tseng> how can you elect branden
[02:54] <desrt> i have no idea what DPL is, but i suspect the "d" means debian
[02:54] <tseng> thats almost as bad as voting for kerry
[02:54] <schweeb> debian project leader
[02:54] <desrt> and the "pl" means "project leader" now that i think about it
[02:54] <schweeb> tseng: <3 tseng!
[02:54] <tseng> <3 !
[02:54] <zul> tseng: if gentoo had elections there would be some people i wouldnt elect but the point is moot..
[02:55] <tseng> zul: meh, people in gentoo elected me
[02:55] <tseng> whats that tell you
[02:55] <zul> you would be one of the few i would elect
[02:55] <desrt> what's the point of having elections if you never release anything?
[02:55] <zul> flame wars of course
[02:55] <desrt> right.
[02:55] <tseng> thats a misinformed comment
[02:55] <tseng> imo.
[02:56] <desrt> i admittedly know very little about debian
[02:56] <desrt> i installed it once and found out all the software was 2 years old
[02:56] <desrt> then it went away
[02:57] <tseng> thats another misinformed comment
[02:57] <desrt> well.  it's an account of actual events.
[02:57] <desrt> and i lived those events
[02:57] <tseng> there are multiple branches
[02:57] <desrt> well, i wasn't running sid
[02:57] <tseng> you were running woody
[02:58] <crimsun> the funny thing is, there are machines I _want_ Woody running on
[02:58] <desrt> yes.  i think i was.
[02:58] <desrt> you *need* to have a stable distribution with modern software in it, though
[02:58] <schweeb> I don't even trust my servers to woody anymore
[02:58] <desrt> linux moves pretty quickly.  2 years ago is relatively unusable compared to what's available today
[02:58] <zul> brb
[02:59] <tseng> they just keep coming
[03:00] <crimsun> to be fair, though, I don't think there's a distro quite like Debian. I'll happily slap it on for a server and not think twice.
[03:01] <schweeb> crimsun: yes
[03:01] <desrt> i used debian as the basis for a thin client image a while ago.  it was the best distro for that.
[03:01] <schweeb> I use sarge now though for servers
[03:02] <desrt> it had like Xfree3 at the time (4 was out, but not xorg, i don't think) but who cares?  it worked nicely.
[03:02] <desrt> and having a single-executable X server was sort of nice anyway
[03:02] <crimsun> sure made debugging simpler
[03:03] <desrt> and the entire dpkg/apt concept is really interesting and strange
[03:03] <desrt> the fact that you can go between entire distributions by changing your apt sources and reinstalling some stuff is pretty cool
[03:04] <desrt> i'm suprised that even works at all
[03:04] <desrt> nevermind the fact that it works *well* from what i understand
[03:04] <crimsun> well, if you're using Ubuntu, that's testament to how well it works ;)
[03:05] <desrt> right.  but i installed ubuntu off of an ubuntu install cd
[03:05] <desrt> i should hope that works properly :)
[03:05] <desrt> i mean more if you have a debian system and want to move it to ubuntu
[03:05] <crimsun> yep, it does work.
[03:06] <crimsun> I migrated 20 machine from woody (or sarge or sid) to warty
[03:06] <crimsun> machines
[03:06] <desrt> generally, how do the debian folks feel about ubuntu?
[03:07] <desrt> more or less a mixed bag?
[03:07] <tseng> alot of them work for canonical :P
[03:07] <tseng> some of them are bitterly opposed, the rest are cool with it
[03:07] <crimsun> yeah, it's across the board
[03:07] <crimsun> (as expected)
[03:07] <desrt> i went in #debian on the day i installed ubuntu asking something about how to override package dependancies with dpkg
[03:08] <desrt> i accidentally mentioned that i was running ubuntu -> kickban
[03:08] <tseng> #debian isnt a warm fuzzy
[03:08] <desrt> ya
[03:08] <desrt> i learned that a bit later
[03:08] <desrt> they didn't hate me because i use ubuntu.  they hated me because i'm a person :)
[03:08] <tseng> they dont want basic user questions
[03:08] <tseng> or any questions really
[03:09] <tseng> meh.
[03:09] <tseng> that last time i frequented there was when it was on OPN
[03:09] <desrt> irc used to be a lot nicer
[03:09] <schweeb> mwilson personifies all that is wrong with the debian community (or at least he used to)
[03:10] <desrt> you could actually get help in help channels
[03:10] <tseng> mwilson usually is such a douche it makes me ssmile
[03:10] <tseng> he's funny
[03:10] <desrt> and actually talk about project development in devel channels
[03:10] <desrt> even this morning i commited the faux pas of using a devel channel for help :P
[03:10] <desrt> (though i choose to blame crimsun)
[03:11] <crimsun> hey now, I did migrate it to #ubuntu
[03:11] <crimsun> :)
[03:11] <tseng> i blame everyone
[03:11] <tseng> time to sleep
[03:11] <desrt> cha.
[03:11] <crimsun> night tseng
[03:11] <tseng> bye.
[03:11] <desrt> so, i guess i should ask
[03:11] <desrt> say i want to package up the latest abiword
[03:11] <desrt> and have it in hoary
[03:11] <desrt> can i do that here?
[03:12] <crimsun> assuming you mean breezy, yeah
[03:12] <desrt> ah.  afraid of that.
[03:12] <crimsun> (nothing's going into hoary save security updates)
[03:12] <crimsun> well, it's not as bad as you might think :P
[03:12] <crimsun> breezy will probably open in ~2 weeks
[03:12] <desrt> right
[03:12] <desrt> but i'm not insane enough to install breezy on computers that aren't my own :)
[03:13] <desrt> ok.. so as i understand it
[03:13] <desrt> when breeze 'opens', a snapshot is taken of sid
[03:13] <desrt> and ubuntu packages are added
[03:14] <desrt> and anything not explicitly added/maintained by the ubuntu people remains frozen at the version it was at when sid was branched
[03:14] <crimsun> more realistically, everything's synced/merged from current sid
[03:14] <crimsun> that will affect mostly universe
[03:14] <desrt> hmm
[03:14] <desrt> but the end result is that new sid packages will get in
[03:14] <crimsun> a "sync" is a straight pulling of Sources.gz
[03:15] <crimsun> and a building on Ubuntu's buildds
[03:15] <desrt> at that exact instant and no other time
[03:15] <crimsun> nope, we can ask for syncs from sid at any time
[03:15] <desrt> oh.  that's nice.
[03:15] <desrt> on a package-by-package basis or the entire shot in one go at predetermined times?
[03:16] <desrt> jeff was explaining this to me before... he said that the reason that abiword was so old was because it was version-frozen at the sid branch point
[03:18] <crimsun> well, the "all sid" sync is done at the opening
[03:19] <crimsun> from then on, "all sid" is fairly rare
[03:19] <desrt> hmm
[03:19] <crimsun> we ask for package syncs on a much more frequent basis
[03:19] <crimsun> that's why community involvement is vital for universe and multiverse
[03:19] <crimsun> there are something like a dozen of us universe maintainers
[03:20] <desrt> hmm
[03:20] <desrt> so if i'm lazy
[03:20] <desrt> and i like abiword
[03:20] <crimsun> only about half were actually given upload privileges by Hoary's timeframe
[03:20] <desrt> then i can badger a master of the universe to pull in a more-up-to-date abiword?
[03:21] <crimsun> well, we can't sync ourselves, but we ask our ftpmasters to sync for us
[03:21] <crimsun> on the other hand, we can upload completely new packages that aren't in Sid
[03:21] <crimsun> (they, too, have to be hand-approved by an ftpmaster just as they must be in Debian)
[03:22] <desrt> strange.
[03:22] <desrt> is there a freeze during the release cycle at which point new universe packages are disallowed?
[03:22] <crimsun> nope
[03:22] <desrt> huh
[03:23] <crimsun> we can push new packages in right up until the release (which we did)
[03:23] <desrt> so an up to date abiword could have made it into hoary if i was here a week or two ago?
[03:23] <crimsun> "a week or two"? doubtful.
[03:23] <crimsun> maybe one month ago.
[03:23] <desrt> because you were too busy?
[03:24] <crimsun> and you would have had to have done a heck of a lot of work to ensure it installs/upgrades/removes cleanly.
[03:24] <desrt> or because the ftpmasters are a bit picky about what goes in toward the end
[03:24] <crimsun> desrt: yeah, we were all extremely pressed for time.
[03:24] <desrt> hmm
[03:24] <desrt> ok
[03:24] <desrt> starting to get an idea
[03:24] <crimsun> desrt: about 7 people in charge of 15000 packages ... yeah ...
[03:25] <desrt> and universe can contain stuff that's not even in debian...
[03:25] <crimsun> correct.
[03:25] <crimsun> (it does)
[03:25] <desrt> so, multiverse is solely for the purpose of packages of questional legality?
[03:25] <desrt> *questionable
[03:25] <crimsun> license-wise and other, yes
[03:26] <desrt> cool.
[03:26] <crimsun> take a look at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MOTU
[03:26] <desrt> i always thought universe was debian stuff and multiverse was stuff that debian refused to package
[03:26] <crimsun> oh man, speaking of refusing, we're going to see apt-get.org in breezy...
[03:27] <crimsun> I cringe at the idea, but it's going to happen, and we're going to make it work.
[03:27] <dredg> it gives me the fear
[03:27] <crimsun> it'll definitely be challenging
[03:30] <desrt> apt-get.org = a bunch of 3rd party packages?
[03:30] <crimsun> yep
[03:30] <desrt> neat.
[03:30] <crimsun> simultaneously neat and hair-ripping ;)
[03:31] <desrt> neat for me
[03:31] <desrt> stressful for you :)
[03:32] <crimsun> you should consider joining MOTU if you'd like to help :)
[03:32] <desrt> i have a problem
[03:32] <desrt> i like to help with a lot of things
[03:32] <desrt> so i commit to a lot of projects and have not enough time to contribute a proper amount of time to them all
[03:32] <desrt> so i'm actively trying to not do that anymore :)
[03:32] <crimsun> I encourage you to at least become a member
[03:33] <desrt> right.  but if i become a member i feel bad when i hardly do any work
[03:33] <crimsun> well, help out when you can.
[03:33] <crimsun> there's no obligation
[03:33] <schweeb> speaking of membership
[03:33] <crimsun> of course it's kinda expected if you actually gain maintainership, which is a different step at this point
[03:34] <crimsun> Wed 13 Apr 04:00 UTC Community Council
[03:34] <desrt> well
[03:34] <desrt> what does 'membership' mean?
[03:34] <desrt> actually
[03:35] <desrt> i'll just read some wiki :)
[03:35] <schweeb> 0400 UTC = 1100 EST?
[03:35] <desrt> DanielTChen (crimsun) audio and ALSA specialist
[03:36] <crimsun> schweeb: yes. Or for me, since I'm in EDT, it's midnight.
[03:36] <desrt> i wouldn't mind maintaining haskell
[03:36] <crimsun> desrt: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewDevelopersAndMaintainers
[03:36] <crimsun> the Members list is sadly outdated
[03:36] <schweeb> ah, I take it you're in IN
[03:37] <crimsun> schweeb: nope, NC.
[03:37] <schweeb> hrm
[03:37] <schweeb> maybe I'm in EDT now too
[03:38] <crimsun> date will tell you :)
[03:38] <crimsun> the switchover was last weekend
[03:38] <schweeb> guess I'm EDT :)
[03:38] <ajmitch_> hi
[03:39] <schweeb> anyways, I'm up for membership at the next meetin
[03:39] <crimsun> lo ajmitch_
[03:39] <schweeb> evenin
[03:39] <crimsun> schweeb: excellent!
[03:39] <crimsun> must be afternoon for ajmitch_?
[03:39] <schweeb> then, hopefully soon, I'll be MOTU
[03:39] <schweeb> gotta start working on more packages for that though :)
[03:39] <crimsun> schweeb: look forward to it :)
[03:40] <desrt> crimsun; ya.  the wikipage says that i should be active if i'm a member :)
[03:41] <schweeb> active can mean any number of things though
[03:41] <crimsun> desrt: the onus is less than that if you were to be a maintainer ;)
[03:41] <ajmitch_> yeah, afternoon here for me
[03:41] <schweeb> participating in IRC, mailing lists, etc... is considered activity
[03:41] <desrt> weird.
[03:41] <ajmitch_> killing time before I go & do work in 15min at uni :)
[03:41] <desrt> participating in IRC is considered, for me, avoiding other things that i should be doing :)
[03:42] <crimsun> irc definitely counts
[03:42] <desrt> crimsun; so what if i find myself a little niche to take care of?
[03:42] <crimsun> desrt: then go for it :)
[03:42] <desrt> i'm upstream for gnome, fd.o and haskell
[03:42] <desrt> gnome and fd.o are well-represented in ubuntu already but haskell isn't so much
[03:42] <crimsun> desrt: a couple or a few packages you'd have an active hand in is the best way to start
[03:43] <desrt> thing is, debian already does a fairly decent job with haskell... i know the packager.  he's a nice guy :)
[03:43] <crimsun> work with him
[03:43] <desrt> the only real problem is latency
[03:44] <crimsun> we try to maintain a very good and close relationship with our Debian maintainer/developer counterparts
[03:44] <desrt> that's good policy
[03:44] <crimsun> after all, the entire point is that changes flow freely and frequently between our two distros
[03:44] <desrt> does ubuntu have a buildfarm?
[03:44] <crimsun> oh yes.
[03:44] <schweeb> yep
[03:45] <crimsun> it's ver-ah nice-ah.
[03:45] <desrt> so even though i don't have an amd64 box, i can still package amd64 binaries
[03:45] <schweeb> couldn't survive without it
[03:45] <schweeb> yep
[03:45] <desrt> sweet
[03:45] <crimsun> we do amd64, powerpc, and i386 officially, but there are also ia64 builds
[03:45] <crimsun> at some point, I suspect sparc and hppa will appear
[03:45] <desrt> oh man
[03:46] <desrt> i almost forgot the best part about ubuntu
[03:46] <desrt> sweet sweet vendor patches
[03:46] <desrt> except for the ones that mess with nautilus
[03:46] <ajmitch_> desrt: we upload source packages, and watch the buildlogs, so we don't need the machines ourselves :)
[03:47] <desrt> my personal habit with ghc is that i tend to commit a bunch of changes right *after* the releases :)
[03:48] <desrt> so should i ask my debian friend to show me the ropes about what's involved with creating a package?
[03:48] <crimsun> check DeveloperResources
[03:48] <crimsun> it has a bunch of stuff that's essential
[03:48] <crimsun> Debian new maintainer's guide, for instance, though I'd policy and developer's manuals
[03:49] <crimsun> I'd add^
[03:52] <desrt> heh
[03:52] <desrt> so i asked him
[03:52] <desrt> he says that i should package other haskell-related stuff for debian :)
[03:54] <crimsun> that'd be a great way to get involved :)
[03:54] <desrt> ya.  honestly, though, i don't care very much about debian :)
[03:55] <schweeb> you should
[03:55] <schweeb> it's one of the most significant open source projects out there
[03:57] <crimsun> I dislike the image of Debian and Ubuntu competing, though I willingly admit one's "better" for my desktop needs out of the box
[03:58] <crimsun> things that help one help the other, and that's the way it should be
[03:58] <desrt> right... except in terms of automatic package importing, the relationship is only one-way, right?
[03:58] <schweeb> ubuntu is no more competing with debian than progeny and the like
[03:58] <schweeb> desrt: it's meant to be quite 2 way
[03:58] <desrt> i mean... in theory, shouldn't the masters of the universe not exist at all if the sharing was complete?
[03:59] <desrt> we'd just all share debian's universe and be happy
[03:59] <schweeb> no
[03:59] <schweeb> MOTUs tame the Debian packages into working with Ubuntu's main
[03:59] <desrt> hmm
[03:59] <schweeb> since main often has newer versions, etc...
[03:59] <desrt> but new packages, ideally, go into debian, right?
[04:00] <schweeb> there's a reasonable number of packages that are in Ubuntu that aren't in Debian
[04:00] <schweeb> especially mono related stuff
[04:00] <schweeb> like, I packaged gsf-sharp, which Debian doesn't have
[04:00] <desrt> i guess that's the crux of my question.  why aren't they in debian?
[04:01] <schweeb> because no one's added them to Debian's NEW yet
[04:01] <crimsun> desrt: yes, ideally. There aren't really that many of us MOTUs who are both Debian and Ubuntu maintainers/developers
[04:01] <desrt> so wouldn't it be more efficient to add packages to debian instead of to ubuntu?
[04:01] <schweeb> Ubuntu has a lower barrier to entry for packaging than Debian for the most part
[04:01] <desrt> ok.  that makes a lot of sense, then.
[04:02] <crimsun> Debian has a much stricter entry bar, yes.
[04:02] <crimsun> <insert comment regarding apt-get.org>
[04:02] <schweeb> we actively try to improve upon Ubuntu
[04:02] <schweeb> if upstream Debian happens to accept our changes, great
[04:03] <schweeb> we try to share our work as much as possible
[04:04] <desrt> so... i should make packages for ubuntu and hope they get accepted upstream?
[04:04] <schweeb> pretty much
[04:05] <schweeb> if you want to communicate with some DDs and get yoru packages accepted to NEW, great
[04:06] <desrt> nod.  i just heard the debian side of things
[04:06] <desrt> the plan is to stick with ubuntu for now
[04:06] <desrt> i like to be able to use the benifits of my work
[04:07] <desrt> i'm not very altruistic about these things :)
[04:07] <desrt> my debian friend convinced me of one thing - not to duplicate his work.  so i'm not going to package ghc.
[04:08] <schweeb> basically separating our development from Debian's allows us a bit more freedom than if we had to wait for all of our development to hit upstream Debian
[04:11] <desrt> hmm
[04:11] <desrt> according to the debian guidelines, a library is a bad choice
[04:11] <schweeb> eh, ignore that
[04:11] <desrt> the good news is that it's a library that nothing will use :)
[04:12] <schweeb> those aren't so much guidelines as recommendations
[04:12] <desrt> As an example, I'll use a program called `gentoo', an X GTK+ file manager. Note that the program is already packaged, and has changed substantially from the version while this text was first written.
[04:12] <desrt> *classic*
[04:14] <desrt> ok.  the program i want to package depends on having gecko around
[04:14] <desrt> but i can do --disable-mozilla, for a reduction in functionality
[04:14] <crimsun> the mono stuff, or ...?
[04:14] <desrt> libgtk2hs
[04:15] <desrt> or 'gtk2hs' i should say
[04:15] <desrt> ironically, my friend from school wrote the mozilla bindings for this package :)
[04:15] <desrt> (and now i am disabling them)
[04:15] <crimsun> oh, you'll probably want to build against mozilla-firefox-dev in that case
[04:16] <desrt> oh.  interesting.
[04:16] <desrt> ok.  let's see
[04:18] <desrt> ya.  that's not good enough
[04:19] <desrt> oh weird.  it might be time for a patch.
[04:21] <desrt> ok.  patched configure.ac to look for firefox-gtkembed instead of mozilla-gtkembed
[04:34] <desrt> so.. because i'm doing a library i have to deal with -dev
[04:34] <crimsun> yep
[04:34] <desrt> here's the thing... haskell isn't really normal
[04:34] <crimsun> and the soname would go in the binary name
[04:34] <crimsun> and all that $funstuff
[04:35] <desrt> if you install this package, you're going to want the whole deal
[04:35] <crimsun> in other words, it doesn't make sense to just install that lib?
[04:35] <desrt> the standard foo/foo-dev division doesn't make much sense here
[04:36] <thom> desrt: there's no haskell packaging policy?
[04:36] <crimsun> I was just going to ask that, thom
[04:36] <crimsun> but I don't think there is
[04:36] <thom> desrt: (for debian, i mean)
[04:36] <desrt> well.. going by c2hs, for example
[04:36] <desrt> there is no c2hs-dev
[04:37] <desrt> there's another thing too
[04:37] <desrt> when a new ghc gets installed, gtk2hs needs to be reinstalled
[04:38] <desrt> and similarly, when a new gtk2hs gets installed, all the programs built using it need to be rebuilt too (this isn't as important, since at the moment, everything is statically linked)
[04:39] <desrt> it's sort of a similar situation to kernel modules, i guess
[04:40] <desrt> it's not that the gtk2hs code has changed to match the new ghc version... it's more that any code linked together has to be compiled with exactly the same version of ghc
[04:48] <desrt> k.  found some policy.
[05:03] <desrt> i've just convinced myself that i can't do this
[05:03] <desrt> there's a reason that gtk2hs isn't packaged by debian yet.  it's extremely difficult.
[05:14] <crimsun> morning tritium
[05:14] <crimsun> err, I guess it's still night
[05:14] <tritium> hello crimsun :)
[05:15] <crimsun> the clock on my live cd session is on UTC
[05:15] <tritium> What's up?
[05:15] <tritium> What are you doing on a LiveCD session?
[05:15] <crimsun> not much, I've been amazingly productive today thanks to a Ubuntu 5.04 livcd
[05:15] <crimsun> live cd
[05:15] <tritium> Fantastic!  Away from your office?
[05:16] <crimsun> well, the XP install was acting up, so I decided to let the administrators deal with that mess. I popped in a livecd and rebooted. ;)
[05:16] <tritium> Sounds like a good plan.
[05:17] <crimsun> yeah, it's very nice. Have you had a good weekend?
[05:17] <tritium> Yes, quite good, thanks.  Yourself?
[05:17] <crimsun> not too bad
[05:18] <tritium> Glad to hear it.
[05:30] <crimsun> I wonder what my uptime will be on this livecd session ;)
[05:31] <tritium> Where is the computer you're running it on?
[05:31] <crimsun> my office :)
[05:31] <tritium> Ah, wow.  You're working late, particularly for a Sunday night.
[05:32] <crimsun> yeah, some last-minute grading, then I'm heading home
[05:32] <crimsun> wb ajmitch_
[05:32] <tritium> What course?
[05:34] <crimsun> programming language concepts
[05:35] <crimsun> we're about to wrap up OOP
[05:35] <crimsun> finishing concurrency
[05:35] <tritium> That's great.
[05:41] <desrt> crimsun; you're a prof?
[05:46] <crimsun> desrt: yep
[05:47] <ajmitch> uh oh ;)
[05:47] <crimsun> haha
[05:47] <schweeb> like I said, the enemy ;)
[05:48] <crimsun> I'll say this much: I didn't appreciate the amount of work my professors must have put in behind the scenes
[05:48] <crimsun> this is hard work
[05:49] <ajmitch> either that, or you just haven't found the most efficient way to procrastinate yet :)
[05:49] <crimsun> I'm sure it's that, too :)
[05:49] <Burgundavia> I want to run a package list through apt-cache to see if we have them
[05:50] <crimsun> how is the list delimited?
[05:50] <Burgundavia> the problme is that as soon as apt-cache fails to find one, it dies and takes the pipe with it
[05:50] <Burgundavia> newlines
[05:50] <crimsun> which apt-cache action are you using?
[05:50] <Burgundavia> hmm
[05:50] <Burgundavia> just a sec
[05:50] <desrt> crimsun; i'm going that way
[05:50] <Burgundavia> this is a case of "I think I just figured it out"
[05:51] <crimsun> desrt: excellent
[05:51] <desrt> i TA right now.  aparantly i'm pretty good at it too.
[05:51] <schweeb> Burgundavia: you could always download Packages.gz from the sources and parse that
[05:51] <desrt> and it's as fun as hell
[05:51] <ajmitch> desrt: TA?
[05:51] <desrt> teaching assistant
[05:51] <ajmitch> what does that entail?
[05:51] <crimsun> I would have suggested for i in $(cat foo); do apt-cache policy "$i"; done
[05:51] <desrt> teaching tutorials, labs, etc
[05:51] <desrt> sometimes marking
[05:51] <ajmitch> right
[05:51] <Burgundavia> schweeb, that is what I am doing
[05:52] <ajmitch> also a student for a few more weeks :)
[05:52] <schweeb> Burgundavia: why do you need apt-cache then?
[05:52] <ajmitch> hey dholbach!
[05:53] <dholbach> hey
[05:53] <Burgundavia> schweeb, ok, I am slightly confused
[05:53] <tritium> Hi dholbach
[05:53] <dholbach> hey tritium
[05:53] <crimsun> morning dholbach
[05:53] <dholbach> hey crimsun... morning indeed :-)
[05:53] <dholbach> 05:53 here
[05:53] <ajmitch> ouch
[05:53] <ajmitch> why are you up so early?
[05:53] <dholbach> but i'm worried, i will have forgotten to pack something
[05:53] <ajmitch> can't bear to be away from us? ;)
[05:53] <dholbach> ajmitch: exactly :-)
[05:53] <ajmitch> where are you going?
[05:54] <crimsun> UdU?
[05:54] <dholbach> ajmitch: from dortmund (my place) to trier (my parents), so i'll be able to drop my dog there
[05:54] <crimsun> or is that not for a bit
[05:54] <ajmitch> I thought UDU wasn't for another week for dholbach :)
[05:54] <crimsun> ah
[05:54] <ajmitch> crimsun: will you be at UDU?
[05:54] <dholbach> i'll be leaving germany on the 16th
[05:54] <desrt> crimsun; what school are you at?
[05:55] <crimsun> desrt: NCA&TSU
[05:55] <schweeb> Burgundavia: what exactly are you looking to do?  I was talking about you can download http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/hoary/main/binary-i386/Packages.gz and all the other Packages.gz's for the other branches and parse them for the packages you're looking for
[05:55] <desrt> i've never heard of that :)
[05:55] <crimsun> ajmitch: I can't, teaching commitment
[05:55] <ajmitch> ah :(
[05:55] <ajmitch> UDU is in the mid-semester break for me
[05:55] <crimsun> ajmitch: ah, excellent
[05:55] <ajmitch> yeah, it worked out very well
[05:55] <schweeb> wish I could go to UDU
[05:55] <ajmitch> nice & close, too
[05:56] <crimsun> desrt: it's one of the larger historical black colleges and universities (HBCU)
[05:56] <ajmitch> dholbach: seen the udu.wiki.ubuntu.com wiki?
[05:56] <crimsun> desrt: I think only Texas A&M is larger
[05:56] <Burgundavia> schweeb, I am parsing another repo for candidates for upload
[05:56] <desrt> interesting.
[05:56] <desrt> what is a black college, exactly?
[05:56] <dholbach> ajmitch: yeah... i'll make some notes on it when i arrive at my parents place
[05:56] <crimsun> a minority college, african-american-based
[05:57] <desrt> hmm
[05:57] <tritium> crimsun, we recruit there, I believe
[05:57] <crimsun> though to say it's "black" is really a misnomer, since there's a fairly large south asian population, too
[05:58] <ajmitch> dholbach: so many BOFs now...
[05:58] <crimsun> tritium: wouldn't be surprised as a fellow engineering school
[05:58] <dholbach> ajmitch: it will be a DAMN tough week
[05:58] <ajmitch> yeah, not much chance for partying ;)
[05:58] <dholbach> ajmitch: haha, we'll manage
[05:59] <crimsun> haha, I'm sure there will be time for partying ;)
[05:59] <schweeb> seeing as most of the people there are robots, and barely sleep, there will probably be partying till all hours of the night :p
[06:00] <dholbach> all we need to do it persuade sabdfl into a global MOTU boot camp and we're set :-)
[06:00] <tritium> My sister got me a ticket to the U2 concert in Tempe next week.  I'll be leaving for Arizona Wed.
[06:01] <dholbach> WOW
[06:01] <ajmitch> dholbach: a bootcamp would be good :)
[06:01] <dholbach> :-)
[06:01] <crimsun> oh dear.  23:55 < coreymon77> and where can i find how to add the unstable backports?
[06:01] <schweeb> haha
[06:01] <dholbach> users make me cry some times
[06:01] <schweeb> it's been out 3 days!
[06:01] <ajmitch> crimsun: bad word!
[06:01] <schweeb> jebus
[06:01] <crimsun> it was only a matter of time, really :/
[06:02] <dholbach> so what did i forget to pack?
[06:02] <ajmitch> backports! ;)
[06:03] <schweeb> dholbach: where you goin?
[06:03] <ajmitch> your passport?
[06:03] <dholbach> schweeb: first ogra, then my parents place, then i'll visit an ex-girlfriend, then off to UDU
[06:04] <ajmitch> then make sure you have passport, visa if needed for UDU
[06:04] <ajmitch> everything else is secondary
[06:04] <schweeb> ex-girlfriend, eh? you dirty rascal you
[06:04] <ajmitch> oh, and a laptop if you have one (with AC adaptor)
[06:04] <dholbach> schweeb: HAHAHAHAHA! :-)
[06:05] <dholbach> ajmitch: need to get my sister's one, will burn my home-directory now
[06:05] <ajmitch> gpg key!
[06:05] <dholbach> ajmitch: yes!
[06:05] <schweeb> dholbach: :D
[06:06] <schweeb> don't forget blank CDs
[06:06] <schweeb> I always end up needing blank CDs for one reason or another
[06:06] <ajmitch> you can pick those up easily enough
[06:06] <dholbach> schweeb: for my ex-girlfriend? :-)
[06:06] <schweeb> dholbach: well, if you take some "pictures" you gotta back em up :)
[06:07] <dholbach> schweeb: you're so funny :-)
[06:07] <schweeb> of course I am
[06:07] <ajmitch> I should hunt down mpt - it seems that he might be in dunedin as well
[06:08] <schweeb> dunedin?
[06:08] <ajmitch> this city, where I live :)
[06:08] <schweeb> ah :)
[06:11] <dholbach> schweeb: that'd be lovely :-)
[06:11] <schweeb> are we gonna continue using bugzilla? or are we switching to malone entirely?
[06:11] <dholbach> malone, at some stage
[06:12] <schweeb> whereabouts in germany are you, dholbach?
[06:13] <dholbach> schweeb: dortmund
[06:14] <dholbach> schweeb: 10km from mvo
[06:16] <dholbach> did you spot it on the map?
[06:16] <schweeb> I'm lookin now
[06:18] <schweeb> there we go
[06:19] <ajmitch> malone is looking fairly quiet
[06:19] <schweeb> poor lamont, all alone in the central US
[06:19] <schweeb> hehe
[06:22] <schweeb> hrm, anyone know volvoguy?  he's in MI too
[06:25] <ajmitch> at least according to that, I'm the southern-most Ubuntu person :)
[06:26] <dholbach> smurfix lives close to atlantis :-)
[06:27] <schweeb> lol
[06:27] <dholbach> and phurballphredd somehow got the coordinates wrong, he's in mongolia instead of indianapolis :-)
[06:27] <crimsun> which map is this?
[06:27] <ajmitch> http://people.ubuntu.com/~jdub/random/UbuntuWorldWideHuge.jpg
[06:27] <schweeb> http://people.ubuntu.com/~jdub/random/UbuntuWorldWideHuge.jpg
[06:28] <dholbach> wiki/UbuntuWorldWide
[06:28] <schweeb> dholbach: well, mine shows up clearly still :P
[06:28] <crimsun> great, thanks
[06:28] <ajmitch> schweeb: as does mine, sadly
[06:29] <schweeb> ajmitch: that's cause you live in LoTR land :p
[06:29] <dholbach> europe is REALLY packed
[06:29] <ajmitch> there is that
[06:30] <dholbach> we need another map for that
[06:30] <schweeb> think jdub's talkin about doing some zoomed in maps
[06:30] <dholbach> how could i else find mates for the next release party?
[06:30] <ajmitch> nah, we need this expanded out lots, and printed out for UDU ;)
[06:32] <dholbach> sounds like a tapestry
[06:32] <dholbach> <- shower
[06:35] <crimsun> cool, just added coords
[06:51] <tritium> Good night, guys.
[06:52] <tritium> See you tomorrow.
[06:59] <schweeb> dholbach: east coast, about the middle
[06:59] <Burgundavia> one of the original 13 states
[06:59] <dholbach> ahh, ok
[07:11] <dholbach> wonder what branden robinson will do to debian's situation now
[07:12] <schweeb> that's a very good question
[07:12] <schweeb> I'm pretty concerned, I've not been a big fan of his
[07:12] <schweeb> but I hope for the best
[07:13] <dholbach> maybe he's one of those who /can/ make major changes
[07:15] <crimsun> 'night all
[07:15] <dholbach> sleep tight, crimsun
[07:25] <Burgundavia> dholbach, I grepped that repo I mentioned. It seems to be a straight build of Debian sid with one exception.
[07:26] <dholbach> Burgundavia: then we should talk to the maintainer
[07:26] <Burgundavia> dholbach, I have built that program (glest) in my pbuilder and it builds and installs
[07:27] <dholbach> i think we should now go the -> MOTUNewPackages way
[07:27] <Burgundavia> ok
[07:27] <Burgundavia> I will add it
[07:38] <Burgundavia> done
[07:54] <schweeb> man, this womble guy is hostile.
[08:09] <Gagatan> moin
[08:27] <schweeb> night folks
[08:30] <dholbach> bye schweeb
[08:30] <dholbach> hi Gagatan
[08:41] <dholbach> i'm off, bye
[09:30] <womble> Got a package-without-.desktop-file: conglomerate
[09:31] <womble> Do I just drop it in the wiki page somewhere?
[09:44] <Burgundavia> there is a page already listing everything in uni/multi not having a .desktop file
[09:45] <Burgundavia> www.ubuntu.com/wiki/UniverseWithoutDesktopFile
[09:47] <Burgundavia> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UniversePackageWithoutDesktopFile
[09:52] <womble> Burgundavia: And yet, I don't see conglomerate on there.  Which is why I want to add it.  But, since there doesn't appear to be any "manually added" entries there already, I'd like to get the opinion of those who have to read it as to the best way to add it.
[09:52] <crimsun> womble: add it and file on malone
[09:53] <womble> crimsun: Why both places?
[09:55] <crimsun> womble: because malone is our bug tracking tool
[09:56] <womble> crimsun: Yeah, as in "Bugsy Malone".  Do I file against the package in malone and then duplicate that info in the wiki as a package to be fixed?
[09:56] <crimsun> womble: sure.
[09:58] <crimsun> womble: because prior to Malone, we had no official bug tracker
[09:58] <crimsun> womble: so it was easiest to stuff things onto a wiki
[09:58] <womble> And you're in a dual-operation transition phase currently?
[09:59] <crimsun> womble: and in the last months leading down to Hoary's release, we were all massively editing the wiki pages to keep our changes current
[09:59] <crimsun> womble: essentially.
[09:59] <Amaranth> heh, using a wiki as a BTS hurts
[09:59] <womble> OK then.  Now I understand.
[09:59] <crimsun> we can't use bugzilla.u.c for universe/multiverse
[09:59] <crimsun> malone wasn't ready then
[10:00] <Amaranth> it really hurts when the wiki looses two days of changes :/
[10:00] <Amaranth> err, loses
[10:00] <womble> Will the account I create for the wiki work on malone and vice versa?
[10:00] <crimsun> womble: absolutely.
[10:04] <womble> phew
[10:15] <d3vic3> morning
[11:29] <\sh> grmpf...can't login to ubuntulinux website...
[11:29] <\sh> the data is correct...but I can't login
[11:29] <\sh> and resetting passwords is also not working :(
[11:29] <ajmitch> it's done this before..
[11:30] <\sh> scrap
[11:30] <\sh> need to change something on MOTUNewPackages
[11:30] <\sh> hell damned
[11:33] <ajmitch> we'll have a good MOTU discussion session at UDU with the rest of the people, but I think a meeting at sometime could be good
[02:23] <siretart> hi
[02:24] <Treenaks> MOTU meeting? I propose Amsterdam!
[02:24] <Treenaks> [/late] 
[02:24] <siretart> does anyone have a good pointer why amd64 binaries usually needs to be compiled with "-fPIC"?
[02:25] <dredg> Treenaks: feh. i propose dublin.
[02:25] <thom> siretart: because you can't have non-fpic shared objects on amd64
[02:25] <Treenaks> dredg: do they have bandwidth there then?
[02:25] <siretart> thom: why isn't -fPIC default in gcc on amd64 then?
[02:25] <dredg> maybe...
[02:25] <siretart> I try to understand it
[02:26] <thom> siretart: you might be building staticly
[02:26] <siretart> when to use -fPIC and when not? does it harm on i386/ppc?
[02:26] <siretart> ah
[02:26] <siretart> hm
[02:26] <thom> debian policy says you should use PIC everywhere
[02:26] <thom> (for shared objects)
[02:27] <siretart> and I assume it doesn't make any difference on i386, yes?
[02:32] <siretart> anyway, thanks for explanation
[02:54] <lunatik> hi there, is there a plan to add e17 to ubuntu please ?
[02:54] <Treenaks> lunatik: has it been released then?
[02:55] <Treenaks> (and: do you have sane packages for us?)
[02:55] <lunatik> no released but compilation and usage is ok for me
[02:55] <lunatik> no package no
[02:55] <trulux> heya
[02:56] <sabdfl> hello-motu!
[02:56] <sabdfl> well done on getting universe into shape for hoary, guys
[02:56] <sabdfl> i've had several people say "wow"
[02:56] <dredg> morning sabdfl
[02:56] <Treenaks> hi sabdfl
[02:56] <dredg> sabdfl: personally, i think you could probably s/guys/dholbach/ for most of it :)
[02:57] <Treenaks> dredg: and d3vic3 for the python stuff
[02:57] <lunatik> but I can do packages for it
[02:57] <dredg> Treenaks: definitely
[02:57] <dredg> shrine*
[02:58] <ctd> hullo everyone - does anyone know why mplayer-g4 doesn't actually install mplayer?
[02:58] <Treenaks> dredg: with lots of <blink> and <marquee> and clashing colors?
[02:58] <Riddell> lunatik: I'm sure packages would be most welcome.  do you know if there are any made for debian (official or somewhere on apt-get.org)?
[02:58] <dredg> Treenaks: hell yes
[02:58] <dredg> Treenaks: and a great big "OMG!!!!11111" at the top of the page
[02:59] <lunatik> Riddell: I saw .deb in forum and blogs for e17, but the installation process like hard
[02:59] <lunatik> Riddell: .deb exists shure
[02:59] <d3vic3> :)
[03:00] <Treenaks> lunatik: but those debs should also interact nicely with the e16 ones
[03:00] <Treenaks> the ones I've seen don't
[03:00] <lunatik> the one I've seen was places on different repositories
[03:00] <lunatik> dont move
[03:01] <lunatik> http://thomas.walraet.net/blog/index.php/2005/01/22/22-enlightenment-e17-sous-ubuntu-warty <= if you read french
[03:01] <lunatik> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=20216 <= for english version in forum :)
[03:04] <lunatik> I think the big deal is to make e17 configured as good with nautilus and a good desktop configuration
[03:34] <dholbach> hellooooooooo
[03:35] <d3vic3> O.O
[03:35] <tritium> Hi ogra
[03:35] <ogra> tritium, that was in fact dholbach ;)
[03:35] <ogra> hi
[03:36] <tritium> Well, hello to dholback also :)
[03:36] <Mithrandir> hi both of you
[03:36] <tritium> Are you guys in the same place right now?
[03:36] <ogra> yup
[03:36] <fabbione> hi guys
[03:37] <tritium> hi fabbione
[03:37] <Mithrandir> this is fun.  The new ia32-libs won't ship with just one gcc, nor just two, it'll actually ship _three_ gcc sources.
[03:38] <trulux> Mithrandir: a couple of gcc sources?
[03:38] <trulux> UHH
[03:39] <Mithrandir> trulux: 2.95, 3.0 and 3.3
[03:39] <thom> _2_.95? why OGGE?
[03:39] <trulux> Mithrandir: Christ... 2.95, kinda weird
[03:39] <trulux> W E I R D
[03:39] <Mithrandir> for libstdc++2.9-glibc2.9
[03:40] <Mithrandir> or whatever it's called
[03:40] <fabbione> you kidding right?
[03:40] <Mithrandir> no
[03:40] <Mithrandir> this is for debian, but we'll just sync it.
[03:40] <Amaranth> ia32-libs?
[03:40] <Amaranth> for running 32-bit apps on amd64?
[03:40] <Mithrandir> Amaranth: probably one of the most evil packages you'll ever know.  Stay away from it.
[03:40] <Amaranth> heh
[03:41] <Mithrandir> yay for libstdc++: four different versions shipped.
[03:41] <Amaranth> 1) All my software is open-source and can run on 64-bit and 2) I don't even have an amd64
[03:41] <Mithrandir> (2.10, 2.9 3.0 and 5)
[03:41] <Mithrandir> elmo will so hate me.
[03:42] <Mithrandir> hmm, now I need an ia64 which is running Debian.
[03:42] <Mithrandir> :P
[03:44] <Mithrandir> heh, the source package will grow from 16MB to about 250MB.
[03:45] <thom> Mithrandir: dear god
[03:45] <Mithrandir> thom: I'm trying to make people understand why we want multiarch. :)
[03:46] <Treenaks> we do?
[03:46] <Mithrandir> yes. :)
[03:47] <Mithrandir> oh, fun.  The Ubuntu package should probably ship xorg instead of xfree in the source package.
[03:55] <\sh> breezy is open?
[03:56] <thom> not yet
[04:21] <doko> Mithrandir: you are soure about 2.95? that's egcs-1.1 :-)
[04:21] <Mithrandir> doko: ok, four versions of gcc, I forgot about egcs 1.1
[04:21] <doko> and be prepared to put glibc-2.1 in there as well ;-)
[04:22] <Treenaks> oh while you're at it, why not libc5
[04:22] <doko> Treenaks: it's not _really_ needed ...
[04:22] <Mithrandir> doko: nah, glibc should be backwards compatible, shouldn't it?
[04:22] <thom> can we have some a.out love, too?
[04:22] <Mithrandir> thom: sure.
[04:22] <thom> because just elf is really dull
[04:23] <doko> the package is called libstdc++2.9-glibc2.1 ...
[04:23] <doko> thom: :)
[04:23] <Mithrandir> thom: or, no I don't think we can.  The kernel doesn't support them.
[04:23] <Mithrandir> doko: yes, but that means "built against glibc2.1", it's part of the egcs sources.
[04:23] <jbailey> Mithrandir: glibc can generally be expected to be backwards compatible.
[04:23] <doko> Mithrandir: build xen first ...
[04:23] <Mithrandir> doko: not funny.
[04:23] <Mithrandir> :P
[04:24] <jbailey> Mithrandir: The major difference si that from 2.2 to 2.3, all of the internal symbols were hidden, so anything compiled against those suddenly broke.
[04:24] <Mithrandir> ah, ok
[04:24] <Treenaks> jbailey: which is a good thing though
[04:24] <Treenaks> jbailey: (in the end)
[04:24] <jbailey> Mithrandir: The exception there was that drow hacked it so that extern int errno; would still work - But it fails as soon as you move to nptl.
[04:24] <Mithrandir> jbailey: you make me cry.
[04:25] <jbailey> Mithrandir: No, incompetant C programmers should make you cry.
[04:25] <Mithrandir> jbailey: that too.
[04:25] <jbailey> Play thou not with library internals =(
[04:25] <doko> Mithrandir: there are some hundred bug reports in the archives, and AFAIR we fixed many of them already for hoary
[04:26] <Mithrandir> jbailey: I'm just happy I'm at the university now, so I get about 2.5MByte/sec to my local mirror
[04:26] <jbailey> Mithrandir: Bite me.
[04:26] <jbailey> ;)
[04:27] <atmaniak> hi
[04:27] <Mithrandir> I'm going to build-depend on lsb so we can DTRT for ubuntu and debian both, just because I can.
[04:27] <atmaniak> is there a solution to have a recent version of XFCE in hoiary ?
[04:28] <dredg> soon to be ie.archive i hope
[04:28] <dredg> atmaniak: Version: 4.2.1.1-2ubuntu2 isn't recent enough?
[04:29] <atmaniak> dredg, oups, ?? universe ?
[04:29] <dredg> yes
[04:30] <atmaniak> ok, thx
[04:31] <atmaniak> dredg, is there any iso live kubuntu using xfce ?
[04:32] <dredg> er, not exactly kubuntu then is it?
[04:32] <dredg> xfce4 is in universe, not in main
[05:06] <bddebian> Hey folks
[05:44] <lunatik> I've got a maintaner for e17 in ubuntu :)
[06:03] <GheRivero> res
[06:43] <Usiu> Hi, Do you know the problem ?? [gnome-bluetooth]  Ubuntu Linux (Send To: Menu Function)   Patrick Steiner
[06:43] <Usiu> How to fix it ?
[06:43] <Usiu> http://lists.gnomehack.com/pipermail/gnome-bluetooth/2005-March/000818.html
[07:31] <herve> houba!
[07:33] <bddebian> houba?
[07:33] <herve> nevermind :-)
[07:35] <bddebian> :-)
[07:37] <herve> bddebian, http://www.marsupilami.com/
[07:47] <bddebian> Heya Boilermaker!
[07:48] <tritium> bddebian, hey there :)
[07:48] <tritium> I think I prefer "Fightin' Irish" to Boilermaker ;)
[07:48] <bddebian> tritium: Traitor!! :-)
[07:48] <bddebian> herve: No habla :-)
[07:49] <tritium> bddebian, undergraduate ties are just much stronger ;)
[07:49] <herve> bddebian, just if you knew the character under another name
[07:49] <bddebian> Ahhh
[07:49] <bddebian> Ren and Stimpy? :-)
[07:49] <bddebian> j/k
[07:58] <hsprang> hi!
[07:58] <herve> hi
[08:01] <bddebian> Hello hsprang
[08:03] <tritium> bddebian, so what's up?
[08:03] <bddebian> tritium: "working" :-(  You?
[08:03] <tritium> bddebian, same
[08:08] <bddebian> tritium: Are you working on Masters or PhD?
[08:08] <tritium> bddebian, PhD
[08:08] <bddebian> What school?
[08:08] <bddebian> err curriculum
[08:09] <tritium> bddebian, what do you mean?  I'm in Electrical & Computer Engineering.  That what you mean?
[08:09] <bddebian> Ahh
[08:09] <bddebian> You don't happen to know a Brian Pearson do you?
[08:09] <tritium> bddebian, doesn't ring a bell, but I'll look him up.
[08:10] <bddebian> tritium: Well it was long ago.  He was an EE student I think and was my boss at the Krannert building when I was doing tech support :-)
[08:11] <tritium> bddebian, I don't know any of the undergrads...
[08:12] <bddebian> tritium: D00d, I'm old.  This was like 15 years ago.. :-)
[08:12] <tritium> bddebian, I haven't been her that long, dude!
[08:13] <tritium> I was here for 1 year to get my MS in 98-99, and I've only been here for PhD since Aug `02.
[08:13] <bddebian> Ahh
[08:13] <bddebian> I was there in like 88-89.. ;-P
[08:14] <tritium> Ah, the year ND won the national championship ;)
[08:14] <bddebian> Heh
[08:15] <tritium> I'll be leaving in August for good - can't wait!
[08:17] <bddebian> What, West Lafayette not exciting enough for you?? ;-)
[08:17] <tritium> I much prefer the climate of New Mexico :)
[08:17] <tritium> And I miss the chile...
[08:20] <bddebian> Bah, too damn hot there :-)
[08:20] <tritium> nah, it's a dry heat ;)
[08:24] <bddebian> Shit, I lived in California and went to AZ to the river often.  Don't tell me about "dry heat"  It's still fucking hot!! ;-)
[08:25] <tritium> heh, but it beats humidity any day
[08:26] <bddebian> This is true
[08:27] <bddebian> Although there is nothing quite like stepping out of the shower and NEVER drying off.. ;-P
[08:27] <tritium> bddebian, you're in MD, did you say?
[08:28] <bddebian> No, Philly
[08:28] <tritium> Oh, that's right.
[08:35] <tritium> I'll be back...
[08:57] <herve> hmm... cryptic
[09:08] <pkern> ogra: May I message you?
[09:10] <herve> didn't you just? :-)
[09:10] <pkern> No.
[09:10] <pkern> Not really ;)
[09:11] <herve> haaa... you want to flood him :-p
[09:11] <pkern> lol (:
[09:11] <pkern> Hm is there a DFSG-equivalent for Ubuntu?
[09:12] <herve> DFSG :-)
[09:12] <pkern> Ok, the License Policy ;)
[09:13] <herve> hi doko
[09:13] <pkern> What really caught me when searching for it was the spelling. ``licence'' instead of ``license'' |:
[09:14] <herve> the other way round for me
[09:14] <herve> licence is the French spelling, for instance
[09:15] <Treenaks> incense!
[09:15] <herve> if you say so :-p
[09:18] <pkern> Treenaks: May I message you privately instead of ogra who is away? ;)
[09:21] <Treenaks> pkern: about what?
[09:22] <pkern> Treenaks: MOTU
[09:22] <Treenaks> keeping it on the channel might be nicer :)
[09:22] <Treenaks> maybe?
[09:22] <herve> well, it's #motu here
[09:22] <herve> but can you be more specific, pkern
[09:22] <herve> come on, don't be shy :-)
[09:24] <pkern> Question No. 1: Are packages flowing directly from Debian into the universe?
[09:25] <herve> not really
[09:25] <pkern> But otherwise work would be duplicated?
[09:25] <herve> consider packages going into main, at first :-)
[09:26] <herve> and we have altered some, so the flow cannot always be automated
[09:26] <pkern> Yeah, sure. I know that it is sometimes necessary to patch some.
[09:27] <pkern> Well, it's like this. Some guy of the local Linux User Group ordered some Ubuntu CDs to my home to distribute them.
[09:27] <pkern> I was impressed when I tried it.
[09:28] <pkern> Now I wanted to contribute some time to Ubuntu. As I am a Debian Developer I am quite used to Packaging.
[09:28] <herve> sure you're welcome
[09:28] <pkern> Yeah, but how to get started exactly? Packaging stuff for Ubuntu and looking for a mentor for each one of them again like in Debian? ;)
[09:29] <herve> if you're a dd
[09:29] <herve> I think you can easily get upload rights
[09:29] <herve> but we're having some rest for now ;-)
[09:29] <pkern> (:
[09:29] <herve> hoary just released and breezy is not opened next
[09:29] <herve> s/next/yet
[09:30] <ajmitch> once breezy is reopened there'll be a mad period of automagic syncing with debian
[09:30] <pkern> Well, look at Debian sarge. *cough*
[09:30] <pkern> *g*
[09:30] <herve> ajmitch, but it can't be automated for packages marked ubuntuN ?
[09:30] <pkern> Well, it is not documented, that's why I wanted to ask. (:
[09:30] <herve> that's what I was about to say
[09:31] <herve> I don't really know how the motu will work now
[09:31] <herve> as for me, I'll concentrate on python/zope packages
[09:31] <herve> which were almost all altered :-] 
[09:31] <ajmitch> herve: the merge-o-matic hsa some special rules for handling those syncs - I don't know how it will work
[09:31] <pkern> herve: In theory you could record a diff between the ubuntu version and the Debian version it was build upon and apply this to the new one, after a review ;)
[09:32] <ajmitch> pkern: there are a whole bunch of debdiffs sitting somewhere for that purpose :)
[09:32] <herve> ajmitch, unapply, update, and reapply changes? I doubt it
[09:32] <ajmitch> you  may have seen the recent discussions on the debian lists about debian & ubuntu
[09:32] <pkern> (=
[09:32] <Mithrandir> pkern: that's basically what mom does.
[09:33] <herve> I easily get bored of tro^Wendless discussions on debian-devel :-)
[09:33] <Treenaks> Mithrandir: cleaning up after the maintainers? :P
[09:33] <Mithrandir> Treenaks: no, finding the ubuntu diff and applying that to the new debian package.
[09:33] <herve> I already know packages where it would have been a mess
[09:33] <Mithrandir> pkern: take a look at http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/ongoing-merge/
[09:34] <ajmitch> ah, there they are
[09:34] <herve> sip-qt3 and sip4-qt3 DD made the same job as us
[09:35] <pkern> Mithrandir: Really nice, thank you.
[09:36] <herve> wow! scott is really productive! :-p
[09:55] <motaboy> Hi all!
[09:55] <crimsun> 'lo
[09:57] <herve> hi motaboy
[10:50] <herve> night all!
[11:20] <tritium> ogra, you said dholbach is with you?  Are you already "down under" for the conference?
[11:30] <ajmitch_> tritium: they're both in .de, iirc
[11:30] <tritium> ajmitch, oh, is that right?  I see...
[11:33] <JanC> the xbel-utils package doesn't install correctly in hoary
[11:33] <JanC> (post-install script tries to use the wrong python version)
[11:33] <JanC> so yesterday I made a fixed package for myself (first time I used pbuilder ;) )
[11:33] <JanC> xbel-utils is built from the python-xml source package BTW
[11:33] <JanC> now the big question is: "what should I do with it"?  :-)
[11:35] <koke> hi motus!!
[11:36] <siretart> hi koke :)
[11:38] <ajmitch_> morning koke
[11:38] <koke> ajmitch: morning, but here it's 23:36 :)
[11:39] <koke> do you know how to login on the UDU wiki??
[11:41] <ajmitch_> nope, I haven't done so yet
[11:52] <koke> I wanted to add myself to the Attendees page!!! :D
[11:52] <tseng> koke: just click Login at the top
[11:52] <tseng> on the front page
[11:52] <koke> ohh, I must be blind :)
[11:52] <koke> what a small font!
[11:52] <tseng> its next to search
[11:52] <tseng> yeah i had trouble with it
[11:53] <tseng> switch your theme to rightsidebar
[11:53] <tseng> its easier to use imo
[11:53] <tseng> (i run moin at work also)
[11:54] <koke> tseng: it's quite nicer, thanks
[11:55] <tseng> np dude
[11:55] <tseng> should be default