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=== pitti waves to dholbach
dholbachhey pitti :-)09:59
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pittidong, 2000 UTC10:00
dholbachhey jani10:01
janihey dholbach :)10:01
zulhey pitti 10:01
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ograhi robitaille :)10:02
robitaillehi ogra10:02
dholbachhey seb128, fabbione :-)10:02
seb128hi dholbach 10:02
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dholbachhey mdz 10:07
mdzKeybuk: ping10:07
mdzpinged sabdfl also10:07
Keybukmdz: yo10:07
mdzare the people who proposed the two agenda items present?10:08
mdzthey didn't give names in the wiki10:08
janimdz, here10:09
janisecond item10:09
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mdzthe zwiki history doesn't tell us who added the other item10:10
mdzso we'll defer that one, I guess10:10
mdzjani: would you like to present your issue?10:10
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janiI propose that we allow selected new packages to enter hoary universe10:11
janiif techically feasible10:11
janithat's it :)10:11
janiI am thinking of packages10:11
pittiafter the usual MOTU review?10:11
janithat are often requested10:11
smurfixDo you have any specific pakages in mind?10:11
janiusual or harsher MOTU review considering it's special10:11
janinvu is what I have in mind10:12
janiit's the moist requested since warty10:12
=== fabbione disagrees as already explained at the MOTU meeting
janiand has it's own wiki page abot how to install it10:12
ograjani, universe is stable10:12
janifabbione I remember that10:12
mdzI was under the impression that nvu was not packaged yet; that's why it isn't in Ubuntu already10:12
Keybuk"moist requested" ?  it makes people moist, so they request it? ;)10:12
ograjani, the nvu package wasnt reviewed10:12
janiI found a nvu package and adapted it toi ubuntu a bit10:12
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janiogra I know hence my request ;)10:12
ogramdz, there is one on MOTUNewPackages10:13
Kamionhow about hoary-updates/universe rather than hoary/universe, if that's required?10:13
mdzKamion: I think that's a given10:13
KamionI feel quite strongly that hoary/* should be static after hoary release10:13
janilast meeting (march 23rd) decide that it ws not worth it because it could possibly destabilize stuff10:13
mdzKamion: for the same reason10:13
Kamionmdz: ok, it wasn't clear10:13
Keybukmy gut tells me that new things belong in the new distro, not retro-actively put in the released one10:13
janitjhat's why I only propose new packages 10:13
janiwhich do not need any dependency besides what;s in hoary already10:13
fabbionejani: hoary is released.. why not focusing on breezy?10:14
mdzjani: I think the result would be a "one upload only" policy10:14
janimdz, sure10:14
mdzwhich I think would be frustrating, since there are always problems with the first upload, which need to be fixed10:14
janiI will focus on breezy10:14
ograjani, do you really think thats needed ?10:14
fabbionei mean.. it's a 6 months release cycle10:14
ograjani, yeah10:14
janiogram I think _users_ will appreciate it10:14
janiI do not use nvu and do not intend to10:14
pittiwhy can't these packages be put onto a private archive?10:14
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pittiwe don't stop anybody from shipping stuff on breakmybuntu.org10:15
mdzpitti: that's backports, and we want to avoid that fragmentation10:15
fabbionejani: did you consider how much overhead it would take to ensure that the package will work on an "old" release?10:15
ograand get imported in breezy then10:15
janipitti, so we keep as many users away from sources.list10:15
pittimdz: well, we cannot forbid hoary inclusion _and_ private archives10:15
Keybukis there any use case for this other than "are we there yet?"10:16
fabbionejani: i think there is enough to do in universe on each release that it would be impossible for MOTU's to care about an old release too10:16
janiif it's a private archive it will prolly have other stuff in it whic may destabilize and produce sputrious bugreports10:16
pittimdz: what's wrong with e. g. people.u.c./~foo/mycrack/ ?10:16
KeybukI can see more complaints that we don't have Firefox 1.2 than a new package10:16
Keybuk(for example)10:16
janifabbione, that's why  Ipropose harsher acceptance criteria so we do not abuse this10:16
janiso no backports-like stuff10:17
janikeybuk, firefox would be upgrade not a new package10:17
fabbionejani: by the time you enforce the criteria and upload, breezy will be out10:17
pittijani: do you want to extend your proposal "only new packages" to "only packages that have been added after hoary"? (which is much harder to keep track of)10:17
mdzpitti: if there is a real demand for such software, we should try to accomodate it within Ubuntu rather than force it out to private repositories10:17
mdzit is much more manageable that way10:17
janifabbione, what do you mean if I upload in two week from now breezy will be out already ;) ?10:17
mdzI'm concerned that this would lead us to a slippery slope, though10:18
mdzif new packages were allowed, why not new versions of existing packages?10:18
fabbionejani: no, but if you need to do a real and serious testing cycle, it might take longer than that10:18
mdzwe do have good reasons for having a stable release10:18
janimdz, because new versions could have regressions10:18
mdzalso, new packages are not entirely risk-free10:18
janinew packages while not rsik-free do not have regeressions10:18
pittimdz: I'm against changing hoary, too, but single-shot uploads make even less sense than changing hoary10:19
mdzthey do not have regressions, but they can break pre-existing packages10:19
janimdz, only if packaged badly or malware I suppose?10:19
Kamionconsider a package that drops a filename into a part of the filesystem namespace owned by another package without permission10:20
mdzjani: the package could be buggy, or taken out of context.  I'm not particularly concerned about malicious packages10:20
Kamiona later version of the second package can then fail to install if you have the first package installed, and require a Replaces: where none should have been necessary10:20
mdzKamion: worse, consider a package which supersedes an existing binary package10:20
mdzthat's what happened with hplip10:20
janimdz, it is universe. we don't know we don;t have such packages already fixed/uploaded in tha past 2 weeks10:21
janimdz,kamion this is why I proposed more than the usual MOTU process10:21
Kamionjani: experience suggests it's better to draw a line every so often and stop worrying about the old release10:21
janieven only a selected uploader (fro10:22
mdzwe have finite resources available for package QA review10:22
Kamionyou can only focus on so many branches at once10:22
mdzI would rather spend those resources getting new packages into breezy, than on hoary backports10:22
janikamion, hoary is a new release :) will be installed 6 months from now10:22
Kamionjani: yes, and we've finished it; we had 6 months to work on it10:22
fabbionejani: it will, because people will know that is stable10:22
janiok I rest my case :)10:22
Kamionwe will now have a further 6 months to work on breezy, and make that stable10:22
dholbachjani: i will review it tomorrow10:23
Kamionand the more MOTU effort that's available to work on breezy, the better it will be10:23
mdzI've added an item to the agenda for Sydney to discuss this10:23
janikamion, breezy/hoary is too black/white10:23
janiusers are more important10:23
dholbachjani: i feel comfortable with one universe to maintain :-/10:24
ograjani, i'm sure users will get used to it after a while....10:24
ograits the second release...10:24
seb1282 versions to maintain that way is a lot of extra work ...10:24
janiI know about all this, my proposal was to try getting most benefits with minimum effort10:24
janinot parallel hoary/breezy universes10:25
janiseb128 no need to maintain10:25
janisingle upload, and that's it 10:25
mdzthe best QA process we can provide for new packages is for them to go through the normal 6-month release cycle10:25
Kamionjani: useful black and white, though, and a distinction many of our users rely on10:25
mdzjani: what happens if the upload is broken?  for example, it doesn't build?10:25
seb128jani: "single upload" = no fix on the new uploads ?10:25
janimdz, lot's of universe packages had 2 day QA cycle :)10:26
Mithrandirjani: 2 days is a lot more than "single upload"10:26
seb128better to focus on the current branch imho10:26
janimdz, I havent htougjh of that10:26
dholbachjani: we have quite a lot of packages that didnt make it in this time... hope you dont feel too disappointed10:26
ograjani, sadly, yes.... we'd like to improve that10:26
ogra(the 2 days QA that is)10:26
janidholbach, I don't10:26
janidon't get me wrong people. I only bring this up because nvu is a recurring question on users list.10:27
janiand it's a web-design prog that seems popular10:27
ograjani, note that MOTU didnt even exist before dec. so we had not the full 6 months10:27
janibtw only lispire offers it already ;)10:27
mdzdid it only become a recurring question after Hoary?10:27
Mithrandirjani: then somebody should just provide a package and point people to that ; 6 months isn't that long.10:27
janimdz, nope thoughout warty10:27
janibut the package wa sonly recently released10:27
ogramdz, nope, it was a while on UniverseCandidates already10:27
mdzI don't see why nvu is a justification for this policy, then; its popularity would have been justification to let it into hoary before release, though10:28
janimdz, there was no time to make it lintian clean and reviewed by enough motus10:28
mdzthe user community has conflicting desires (even each user has conflicting desires)10:29
Kamionthe best review for a package is to have it in the archive and have users file bugs on it10:29
mdzwe try to strike a balance with our release process10:29
Kamionthe problem with updating packages after release is that there's no opportunity for such review before it's unleashed on everyone10:29
dholbachjani: how would you feel about the people.u.c/~someone/nvu-solution with a mailing list announcement/wikipage?10:29
dholbachjani: as a pre-breezy-solution10:29
janidholbach, that's as bad as backports isn;t it ? :)10:30
mdzKamion: that's one of the most significant factors for new versions of existing packages, but doesn't apply as clearly to new packages10:30
janinah, people can dl a binaty installer from nvu.com10:30
dholbachjani: if it's our "backport"10:30
dholbachjani: not ...10:30
janinot having it in universe requires about the same effort I think10:30
janiwhether it's modding sources.list or dling the binary installer10:31
pittiadding an apt source will be more robust, though10:31
dholbachjani: i think it's the cleaner solution, "rules are rules" sounds dumb, but i think it's good to have this all discussed one time, and to have a released universe sounds like the best thing to me10:32
Mithrandirdholbach: agreed10:32
janifine by me too, as I said I do not use nvu :) noone I know does10:32
dholbachjani: i think, we'll take care of it, put it on some webspace, announce it to the mailinglists and are set - people who really want to use it, will grab it from there10:33
janidholbach, and we'll build it for all architectures?10:33
mdzshouldn't we rather encourage users to test it on breezy?10:33
mdzso that they are helping to improve the quality of the eventual release?10:33
dholbachjani: i think so :-)10:33
janimdz, yes that's fine10:33
ograno backports if avoidable10:34
mdzwe will discuss the situation with backports in Sydney and see if we can come up with new ideas to satisfy that use case10:34
dholbachmdz: i thought of it as a interim solution, for the days where breezy will be too bumpy for "web-developers"10:34
mdzbut for now, I think we should be cautious with the release10:34
Mithrandirdholbach: that'll be three-ish months if we follow on hoary's path10:35
ograand note that we have quanta, bluefish, screem....10:35
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janiogra, and vi ;)10:35
dholbachMithrandir: i know, i feel ok with it, since most of the work (reviewing, building, testing) will happen anyway10:35
dholbachhey mvo10:36
ograjani, yay10:36
mvohey dholbach 10:36
janiok,  thanks for the inputs, I think we can move forward :)10:36
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mdzhas the party who added the first agenda item joined us meanwhile?10:37
\shogra: i think the problem is with nvu: nvu runs on windows...the same with firefox thunderbird and stuff like this...that's the reason why users wants to see nvu on ubuntu :(10:37
mdz"Possible interaction between Devel team and Documentation team, esp. with regard to impact of last minute technical changes on documentation (i hope this is On Topic)."10:37
mdkesorry for being late, i assumed there would be more time on MaintainerCandidates etc10:37
\shogra: and they will take whatever package is there (this applies to any software ;))10:37
mdkemdz, i just basically wanted to raise the discussion which you participated on this week in the docteam list10:38
ogra\sh, yeah, but we dont want backports currently, so its not feasable now to introduce them ourselves...10:38
mdzmdke: understood10:38
mdzI'm not sure that there's a decision to be taken here, either by the tech board or the community council10:38
mdzis there something specific that you feel needs an official decision?10:38
\shogra: backports are a nono...10:39
mdkei'm happy to be guided by you on what is the appropriate forum10:39
ogra\sh, this would be one (selfintroduced)10:39
\shogra: but backports are for the users a "solution"10:39
ogra\sh, we'll discuss it in sydney for breezy...10:39
mdkemdz, the issue was just on whether it is possible for the docteam to be kept informed on issues which might affect the documentation, and maybe so that we can explain how decisions will affect documentation10:39
mdzI think the best approach to solving this problem is to build a strategy into the release cycle10:40
mdkesometimes I suppose this might be a factor to be taken into account when making technical decisions10:40
\shogra: nice :) u know my point of view ;) 10:40
mdzwe would declare a freeze date for items which will affect documentation (the doc team will need to tell us what those are)10:40
ogra\sh, yep10:40
mdzand allow enough time for documentation to be updated after that10:40
dholbachogra, \sh: you're offtopic NOW :-)10:40
mdzhow much time do you think would be needed?10:40
mdkemdz, i think it depends on the issue10:40
mdkemdz, in terms of the artwork which caused a problem, its a question of doing screenshots10:41
\shdholbach: sry...but I had this discussion in my gtoo days ;)10:41
mdkewe hope to get screenshots done in all languages, but not sure how much this sort of thing would take10:41
mdzwe want to be able to allow translation updates as late as possible10:42
mdzin order to get more translations in for the release10:42
mdzof course, not all translation updates will affect documentation10:42
mdzbut neither the documentation authors nor the developers know whether this is the case10:42
mdzI don't think we can rely on either party informing the other10:43
mdkewell as far as the artwork is concerned, its just the fact that our screenshots are out of date re: the theme10:43
mdkeand as you say, lots of changes are unforeseeable (like the nautilus one)10:43
mdzand so our only hope would be to schedule in advance10:43
pittiwell, we really shouldn't repeat such drastic changes like the nautilus one10:43
mdzwe have a BOF scheduled for Sydney to discuss changes in the release cycle10:44
mdkepitti, fingers crossed10:44
mdzso if you can provide me with your feelings about how much time we should allow, I will factor it in10:44
pittiso we should rather restrict our release policy to obey feature freeze10:44
mdzmdke: perhaps you could discuss with the rest of the team, and get back to me?10:44
mdkemdz, i think really its a question of having good communication in both directions10:44
mdkewe'll follow the devel list as much as possible10:44
mdzI don't think that scales10:44
mdkewhat do you mean?10:45
mdzit is a lot of information to process, in order to try to pick out a very few relevant bits10:45
mdkeyes that is true10:45
mdzI would rather set expectations up-front10:45
mdzso that you can depend on being able to consider things final at a certain phase of the release10:45
mdzand if any exceptions are made to that policy, you can be informed10:45
mdzbecause they will require approval10:45
mdkeyes I think that would be very appreciated10:45
mdkeyou think that is possible, even for artwork?10:46
mdzcan you discuss with the team and send me a proposal?10:46
mdkemdz, certainly, perhaps we can carry on the same thread10:46
mdzmdke: I intend to try very hard to make that happen, yes10:46
mdzmdke: the artwork caused just as many problems for development as for documentation, I expect10:46
mdzwe did in fact set a deadline; we simply did not meet it :-/10:47
mdkemaybe more: it didn't impact the docs, just the professionality of the screenshots10:47
mdkeok cool10:47
mdkesorry if this issue was not raised in the appropriate place10:47
dokoif the artwork is a problem, we shouldn't release around 1st April ;)10:47
mdzif you can send me 1) a list of items that we should be aware of which affect documentation (artwork?  translations?  desktop behaviour?), and 2) a conservative estimate of the time it would take to adjust for a change in one of those areas10:47
mdzthen I will feed that into the discussion in Sydney10:47
mdkemdz, thank you10:47
mdznow that we have been through a full release cycle, operating in a very community-involved mode, we will be making adjustments to the release process for the next cycle10:48
mdzbased on what we have learned10:48
mdzthis is one example10:48
mdkeok great10:49
mdzogra: is the maintainercandidates page up to date?10:49
mdzis there in fact anyone here who is seeking tech board approval for uploads?10:49
ograyep, i think so....10:49
ogra(up to date)10:49
ograwe have a problem with some ppl getting their keys signed....10:50
mdzthere are perhaps 30 names on that list10:50
ograbut i'd like to suggest tritium for MOTU, he has done a good bunch of packages already ....10:50
mdzit seems that the process is not quite as smooth as we would like, yet ;-)10:51
ograit think dholbach agrees here10:51
dholbachogra: i do10:51
mdzcandidates do not seem to know what they need to do in order to apply10:51
ogramdz, the key stuff is holding up everthing10:51
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ogramdz, oh, they know.... but no signed CoC without key....10:52
mdzogra: don't we have a notarization process for that now?10:52
ogramdz, yep...10:52
mdzbetween that, and finding local people in the strongly connected set, this should not be such a big obstacle10:52
mdzdo we need to provide better facilities for coordinating keysignings?10:52
mdzperhaps use biglumber or something?10:52
mdkelaunchpad would be easy10:53
ogramdz,  some sort of gpg location maps of ubuntites would be nice10:53
mdzis the problem finding people to sign the key, or is it a problem that people don't want to make the effort?10:53
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dholbachmdz: finding people10:53
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ogramdz, not sure about that, but my impression is, that its hard to find ppl10:53
mvobiglumber seems to be a pretty good place, lot's of people on it apparently10:53
mdzI believe biglumber has ICBM coordinates, too10:53
mdzLUGs sometimes have keysigning events10:54
mdzthe key signing requirement is actually very minimal; it would be irresponsible for us to do any less verification10:55
dholbachok... seems like we have to do more encouraging and link-collecting work :-)10:55
ogramdz, something derived from UbuntuWorldWide where people willing to sign others could list themselves would be nice.... i know dholbach already thought about i10:55
mdztritium: what is your name?10:55
tritiummdz, Michael Rimbert10:55
mdzogra suggested that you were interested in applying for maintainership, but I don't see you on the MaintainerCandidates page10:56
ogramdz, mako removes peple after they get members afaik10:56
tritiummdz, my original plan was to pursue universe maintainership10:56
mdzogra: and they need to re-add themselves to apply for maintainer?10:56
ogra(we'll need two lists i guess)10:57
mdzogra,dholbach: you both support tritium for upload to universe?10:57
ogramdz, the maintainership page says they need to add themselves on the TB agenda....10:57
ogramdz, yup10:57
mdzKeybuk, sabdfl: ?10:58
Keybukmdz: no opinion, not seen anything from him10:59
mdzhmm, we're due for a process clarification following the Hoary release, aren't we?10:59
dholbachhttp://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2005-April/028373.html lists a lot of packages, tritium worked on10:59
ograhoary-changes lists 14 uploads 11:00
ograat least11:00
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mdzI am willing to defer to ogra and dholbach in general, for universe candidates11:00
=== ajmitch_ thinks tritium has done good work also
ogramdz, discussing it in UdU....?11:00
mdzbut I think we need to revise the published process, for which we need sabdfl11:00
dholbachapart from that, he works nice within the team and i'm confident completely in him11:00
mdzthe web page states that a vote is necessary, but doesn't go into more detail than that11:01
mdzI support tritium for universe maintainership11:01
crimsunI can also vouch for tritium, having worked with him on several packages.11:01
mdzgiven that Keybuk has abstained, and sabdfl is not present, I'm unsure whether that's sufficient to carry the motion11:02
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mdztritium: have you been before the community council yet?11:02
KeybukI'm willing to accept ogra's and dholbach's opinion11:02
Keybukso if they both agree, I'll agree on that basis11:02
Keybukwhich carries the motion11:02
tritiummdz, no, I have not.11:02
KeybukI just have no personal opinion, having not worked with the guy11:03
ogratritium, ??11:03
ogratritium, i thought so11:03
mdzKeybuk: we've acknowledged that in many cases we need to rely on testimonials from those directly involved; we can't know everyone11:03
mdzI trust their judgement in this area11:03
mdzCC approval is still pending11:03
tritiumogra, I've attended meetings.11:03
mdzbut we'll consider tritium to have tech board approval11:03
mdztritium: preliminary congratulations11:03
tritiumThank you very much :)11:04
mdzanyone else, or any other business?11:04
ogratritium, put yourself on the CC agenda then please.11:04
mdzok, tech board meeting adjourned11:04
tritiumogra, will do.11:04
mdzthanks, everyone11:04
dholbachthanks mdz11:05
mdzCC meeting is tomorrow, this week11:05
dokomdz: just a short look at the toolchain.11:05
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz] : Tue ?? ?? 20:00 UTC: Tech Board -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda || Wed 13 Apr 04:00 UTC Community Council -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda || http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel
mdzI'm not sure when the next tech board meeting will be; I'll be in Australia for the next two Tuesdays11:05
mdzI'll see if we can hold the meeting at the normal time11:05
mdzand will update the wiki accordingly11:05
mdkemdke, i sent you a query, hope this is ok11:05
mdzdoko: can we discuss on #ubuntu-devel, or do you feel there is a TB decision to be made?11:06
mdkemdz ^^11:06
dokomdz: devel is ok11:06
Keybukmdz: given sabdfl's proposed "Maximum Burnout" schedule for UDU, I'd rather like it to be somewhere near our local timezone at the time11:06
fabbioneKeybuk: next TB meeting will be at 04:00 UTC as scheduled11:07
fabbionejust decide the date since everything got messed up for the release11:07
Keybuk<mdz> I'll see if we can hold the meeting at the normal time11:07
dokofabbione: we could have the meeting at 04:00 UTC every time11:08
Keybukthe "normal time" would be (runs out of fingers), uh, 6am local?11:08
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Keybuk2000UTC -> 6am Wednesday I think?11:08
fabbioneKeybuk: a few meeting ago sabdfl agreed in starting a time rotation11:08
fabbioneif after 2 meetings we start with exceptions it will all be more confusing11:09
Keybukare you sure you're not confusing TB with CC?11:09
Keybukwe've not agreed to changing the TB meeting time11:09
fabbioneKeybuk: yes we did agree to change both of them11:09
fabbionesomewhere.. mako should have sent a mail out a long time ago11:09
Keybukhe didn't11:09
Keybukcertainly hasn't been discussed in a TB meeting11:10
fabbioneand right now we are using only this channel topic11:10
dokoKeybuk: there should be no problem with rotating the meeting time11:10
mdzKeybuk: on the normal days, I mean11:10
fabbione+ 4:00 UTC should be on tuesday11:11
Keybukother than the fact it might be at a time the members can't actually turn up?11:11
fabbioneto keep always the same day of the week11:11
mdzI think I can probably spare an hour next tuesday, but probably not during UDU11:11
fabbioneat different time11:11
mdzaccording to the normal alternating schedule, TB would be scheduled during UDU11:11
fabbioneKeybuk: as it is now we have people that NEVER shows up becuase it's in the middle of the night11:11
mdzand CC during LCA11:11
fabbioneKeybuk: so a bit of sacrifice from everybody will make it possible11:12
Keybukfabbione: it's always during _someone_'s night11:12
fabbioneKeybuk: exactly.. so we can share the pain11:12
fabbioneand have the possibility to get everybody here11:12
Keybukif there was a 0400UTC meeting, I would simply not attend11:12
fabbioneKeybuk: sabdfl agreed on the rotation... you can take it up with him11:13
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