[12:01] <tseng> well looking at the list of people
[12:01] <tseng> no one needs a 15 minute recap of where we are at
[12:02] <ogra> tseng, we _hold_ it, we dont attend it...its for the people attending ;)
[12:02] <tseng> so its for the community?
[12:02] <tseng> fine then.
[12:03] <ogra> our names are there because we stand on the stage....
[12:03] <herve> ogra, "than" :-)
[12:03] <tseng> ok
[12:03] <ogra> hehe, herve...ok :)
[12:03] <herve> wow midnight already?
[12:03] <herve> but I'm a grownup now, I can stay longer :-)
[12:04] <tseng> good deal
[12:04] <ogra> only 779 hwdbsubmissions today :-(
[12:05] <tseng> only 396 visitors to my blog this month :(
[12:06] <Burgundavia> ogra, where is that page again?
[12:06] <ogra> hwdb.ubuntu.com
[12:06] <Burgundavia> 12000+
[12:06] <Burgundavia> not bad
[12:06] <ogra> yep...
[12:06] <tseng> he needs to bzip it
[12:06] <Burgundavia> now comes the fun part
[12:06] <ogra> but the daily count is going down again
[12:07] <Burgundavia> actually doing something with it
[12:07] <ogra> after UdU :=)
[12:07] <herve> ogra, 12,000 xml files without escaped "<" and "&"? :-p
[12:07] <tseng> i cant stop eating these tortilla chips
[12:07] <ogra> herve, yup...
[12:08] <ogra> herve, no problem for a little parser script
[12:08] <tseng> while you can see the oil seeping through the paper bag
[12:08] <dholbach> tseng: good thinking :-)
[12:08] <tseng> dholbach: SOO GOOD
[12:08] <ogra> herve, i just squeezed the whole stuff to bz2 yesterday, took only 7hrs for 12000 files ;)
[12:09] <herve> only :-)
[12:09] <ogra> but it went from 2,5G to 260M
[12:09] <herve> and people are asking why dpkg doesn't use bzip2 ;-)
[12:09] <ogra> heh
[12:17] <dholbach> i'm going to get my stuff together... have a nice time *wave*
[12:17] <tseng> bye dholbach .
[12:17] <dholbach> bye tseng
[12:19] <Kaya> I add a note to wiki.ubuntu.com/UniverseCandidates but i saved as plain text
[12:20] <tseng> oh nose
[12:20] <tseng> save it again as moin markup please
[12:20] <Kaya> i try but i get error
[12:21] <tseng> ok then please stop whatever you are doing
[12:21] <tseng> cancel your edits while i look at it
[12:21] <tseng> fixed.
[12:22] <Kaya> thx
[12:23] <Kaya> it that ok
[12:30] <herve> bye all
[12:31] <herve> I have a couple of dreams waiting for me :-)
[12:32] <tseng> i think ill debootstrap breezy into a dir for kicks
[12:33] <zul> hey
[12:33] <tseng> brandon@lappy:~$ sudo debootstrap breezy ./breezy http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/
[12:33] <tseng> elmo: No such script: /usr/lib/debootstrap/scripts/breezy
[12:33] <tseng> buh?
[12:33] <tseng> irssi you suck
[12:34] <tseng> elmo: ignore the stupid tab thinger
[12:34] <elmo> tseng: breezy debootstrap can create breezy
[12:35] <tseng> ill fetch it by hand then.
[12:36] <tseng> thanks elmo
[12:38] <Kaya> when should i expect a answer?
[12:38] <tseng> an answer to what?
[12:39] <Kaya> to my request on the wiki
[12:40] <Kaya> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UniverseCandidates
[12:40] <tseng> i think you broke it again
[12:41] <Kaya> no it looks ok for me
[12:41] <tseng> hm it does now that im logged int
[12:41] <tseng> in
[12:44] <Kaya> thanks bye all
[12:47] <dholbach> now really... *wave*
[01:07] <schweeb> hai everybody
[01:08] <ogra> hi schweeb
[01:08] <schweeb> anything much for us to do yet?
[01:08] <ogra> no, only a huge hill of packages at the horizin
[01:08] <ogra> horizon even
[01:09] <schweeb> heh
[01:09] <schweeb> the buildds are probably having their fun on main right now, I suspect
[01:13] <ogra> yep
[01:15] <ajmitch_> I think we have to start merging in changes we made to hoary at some point
[01:16] <ogra> ajmitch, after the big sync.... lets frst have it synced.... then lest fix
[01:16] <ogra> lets even
[01:16] <ogra> Keybuk will forward the bugs from merge-o-matic to malone iirc
[01:17] <schweeb> oooh, finally using malone for something
[01:18] <ogra> schweeb, we use it since weeks
[01:18] <schweeb> ogra: yea, but mostly bugs were manually added, right?
[01:18] <ogra> yep
[01:19] <cartel_> schweeb u about
[01:19] <ogra> but there are already a good bunch of them
[01:19] <schweeb> yo
[01:19] <cartel_> schweeb, im trying to apply a top level patch to linux-source-2.6.10
[01:20] <cartel_>  /usr/src/linux-patches/i386/2.6.10/unpatch/debian
[01:20] <cartel_> No version.Debian file, assuming pristine Linux 2.6.10
[01:20] <cartel_> what the hell?
[01:20] <cartel_> does this not work under ubuntu?
[01:21] <cartel_> the wiki page says we use dpatches but we dont? what the hell?
[01:22] <schweeb> here's how I'd do it
[01:22] <schweeb> vanilla kernel
[01:22] <schweeb> apply patch
[01:22] <schweeb> use make-kpkg
[01:22] <cartel_> im trying to build linux-image
[01:22] <schweeb> dicking around with the linux-source packages isn's something I usually do
[01:22] <schweeb> make-kpkg should do everything you need it to do
[01:23] <cartel_> you dont understand
[01:23] <schweeb> oh, I do
[01:23] <cartel_> im trying to build a modified linux-image with a top level patch applied
[01:23] <schweeb> yes
[01:23] <cartel_> make-kpkg wont apply the rest of the patches
[01:24] <cartel_> what i would do under debian is depatch the official tree, apply patch, repatch with debian and then im away laughing
[01:24] <schweeb> not always possible...
[01:24] <cartel_> why cant i do something as simple as unpatch?
[01:24] <cartel_> bug?
[01:25] <schweeb> because even after unpatching, the kernel sources aren't necessarily vanilla
[01:25] <cartel_> they should be
[01:25] <schweeb> in an ideal world, yes
[01:25] <schweeb> but stuff is taken out for licensing reasons, etc...
[01:26] <schweeb> you're probably going to have to manually apply the patches one by one, and use make-kpkg
[01:26] <cartel_> the patch should be an exact delta from the vanilla sources...
[01:26] <cartel_> otherwise it is impossible to debianise a vanilla kernel
[01:27] <schweeb> use make-kpkg!
[01:27] <cartel_> at the very least i should be able to unpatch
[01:27] <cartel_> ok ill try
[01:27] <cartel_> so you are saying that not even linux-source-2.6.10_2.6.10.orig.tar.gz is vanilla
[01:27] <cartel_> i have to get from kernel.org
[01:28] <cartel_> yes?
[01:28] <schweeb> right
[01:28] <schweeb> I'm pretty sure it even mentions this on the wiki and in the README.Debian
[01:28] <cartel_> whhatt  ehell
[01:29] <cartel_> i highly suggest kernel team put down the crack pipe
[01:29] <schweeb> Ubuntu uses a pretty aggressive amount of patches in the first place
[01:29] <schweeb> you're going to have to manually evaluate what patches are reasonable, and which ones are crack
[01:29] <cartel_> i know
[01:30] <cartel_> but my end goal is a linux-image just like the ubuntu one
[01:30] <cartel_> with one extra patch
[01:30] <schweeb> didn't I mention this last night?
[01:30] <cartel_> unfortunately that patch is top level
[01:30] <schweeb> fabbione is already working on this
[01:30] <ogra> cartel_, tried #ubuntu-kernel ?
[01:30] <cartel_> where are his work?
[01:30] <schweeb> ask him
[01:30] <schweeb> it's probably not releasable yet
[01:31] <cartel_> since i have already done this in sarge i should be able to do it in ubuntu with no trouble assuming the maintainers follow policy
[01:31] <cartel_> save fabbione the trouble
[01:32] <ajmitch_> morning cartel_
[01:32] <cartel_> the fact is you may as well not bother including unpatch if it doesnt even work
[01:33] <cartel_> i mean thats just stupid seriously
[01:34] <vasi> hey, i'm trying to search at https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/distros/ubuntu/+bugs to make sure my bug isn't already reported...it doesn't seem to work
[01:34] <schweeb> malone isn't fully implemented yet
[01:34] <schweeb> search bugzilla
[01:34] <vasi> ah, it's the same DB?
[01:35] <schweeb> no
[01:35] <cartel_> schweeb: lets see if the patches even apply to vanilla source properly ;)
[01:35] <schweeb> bugzilla is still the primary bug tracker for Ubuntu
[01:36] <cartel_> unless you are reportbug against a package in universe
[01:36] <cartel_> use bugzilla
[01:36] <schweeb> do reportbugs from universe go to Ubuntu?
[01:36] <schweeb> if they don't, I wouldn't use it.
[01:37] <cartel_> reportbug doesnt even go to bugzilla man
[01:37] <cartel_> it just sends an email
[01:37] <schweeb> I understand.
[01:38] <schweeb> I mean does it get sent to Ubuntu or Debian mail list
[01:38] <schweeb> universe is NOT supported by the Debian Maintainer of the package... so the bug report shouldn't go to them
[01:38] <ogra> vasi, you can file bugs about malone in malone ;)
[01:38] <vasi> lol ogra, sure
[01:38] <cartel_> i know
[01:40] <ogra> cartel_, reportbug sends to ubuntu-users@...
[01:40] <schweeb> ah, good
[01:40] <cartel_> schweeb: there is a wikipage for building ones own kernel-image that mentions dpatches. linux-patch-ubuntu isnt a dpatch
[01:41] <schweeb> note: reading debian.README in /usr/share/doc/linux-source-2.6.10 says to use make-kpkg....
[01:42] <schweeb> and I know there's documentation for automatically patching using make-kpkg somewhere
[01:42] <koke> hi all!
[01:42] <ogra> instead of guessing, you two should probably discuss it in #ubuntu-devel, since there are people that know about these packages....
[01:43] <ogra> rather then here....
[01:43] <ogra> hi koke
[01:43] <schweeb> I'm done with the discussion *shrug*
[01:43] <cartel_> what a joke
[01:43] <cartel_> schweeb: patch doesnt apply to vanilla.
[01:43] <schweeb> it's all pretty well documented
[01:44] <\sh> wow..i can't see anything anymore than sourcecode...my brain must be damaged
[01:47] <cartel_> where?
[01:47] <schweeb> \sh: I find drinking till you can't see the sourcecode anymore to be helpful
[01:47] <cartel_> dox i have seen were for warty now outdated
[01:47] <cartel_> eg, dpatches..
[01:47] <schweeb> cartel_: none of this is distro specific or branch specific
[01:48] <\sh> schweeb: nono..no time for drinking (ok coffee yes) writing a difficult howto ;)
[01:48] <schweeb> and documentation for make-kpkg and friends is included with their respective packages
[01:48] <cartel_> well the instructions are no longer relevant so yes it is specific, you may not wish it to be but it is.
[01:49] <cartel_> maybe i am having a bad day and i should go home and sleep
[01:49] <cartel_> hehe
[02:16] <\sh> anyone interested to test the first stage of a howto description?
[02:16] <Burgundavia> sure
[02:16] <\sh> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HowToBuildDebianPackagesFromScratch
[02:16] <\sh> but hard stuff
[02:17] <\sh> bug fixing later on ;) write everything to sh@sourcecode.de I will take care about it later...
[02:21] <schweeb> \sh: you set up a chroot AND a pbuilder? isn't that a bit redundant?
[02:21] <\sh> schweeb: no ;)
[02:22] <\sh> schweeb: finally i messed my system with all my tests ;) thats the reason why, I want to have a clean build enviroment and clean chroot right now ;)
[02:23] <\sh> and I don't like complaints from user: "Hey because of your howto i screwed my system" thats the reason why the setup is just like this, right now, later on, i will change it :)
[02:24] <schweeb> maybe you should mention that the chroot is optional
[02:24] <\sh> well, the pbuilder inside the chroot is optional ;)
[02:25] <\sh> the pbuilder env can be setup in the mainsystem.
[02:25] <\sh> i need a pause
[02:25] <schweeb> I don't see much reason for the chroot at all :)
[02:26] <schweeb> as long as you don't randomly go around manually make installing stuff, you should be fine
[02:26] <schweeb> :)
[02:26] <\sh> schweeb: u gave the answer ;)
[02:26] <schweeb> so, the chroot is optional, as long as you're not a total jerk!
[02:27] <schweeb> (the pbuilder is however, definitely not optional)
[02:27] <\sh> schweeb: playing users are jerks at all, old support helpline thoughts ;)
[02:28] <\sh> schweeb: ok, let's write it like this in the pbuilder section: the pbuilder enviroment can also be build outside the chroot, inside chroot this pbuilder env is only for hardcores who are messing their host system with randomly compiled and installed source packages ...
[02:29] <\sh> schweeb: and I'm a jerk as well...I'm messing my system from time to time :)
[02:29] <schweeb> heh
[02:29] <schweeb> I would suggest mentioning the --prefix configure option
[02:29] <schweeb> so people don't randomly go make installing to /
[02:30] <schweeb> but still get the benefit of seeing what the installed directory structure looks like
[02:30] <\sh> schweeb: hehe...check the source of ming....it's a quite funny things...bugs over bugs ;)
[02:30] <\sh> mainly ming-0.2a is a funny package
[02:31] <schweeb> another downside to your method is that users then have 3 separate Ubuntu environments to keep updated
[02:31] <schweeb> well, 2 if they're building on a non Ubuntu box
[02:32] <schweeb> but for most users, the main system, the chroot, and the pbuilder...
[02:32] <\sh> schweeb: or 5 if they're playing around with breezy ;)
[02:32] <schweeb> why target anything else?
[02:32] <schweeb> changes to hoary aren't too useful anymore
[02:33] <\sh> schweeb: it's only a walk through...and hoary is stable enough to show some stuff...:)
[02:33] <schweeb> heh
[02:34] <\sh> didn't play with breezy right now, I setup the chroot for breezy but didn't try to compile stuff, waiting for the g++ transition
[02:35] <schweeb> is everything even rebuilt with gcc4 yet? the buildds are probably still pretty busy rebuilding main
[02:35] <\sh> I remember the time, when I wrote a howto for gentoo users how to create a livecd with catalyst with xfce4, firefox, thunderbird and openoffice
[02:35] <\sh> schweeb: thats another thing :)
[02:36] <\sh> some gentoo users send me hate letters, like: "Why do u have to compile ooffice from scratch"
[02:37] <\sh> and I send them back: "Because it's fun, and you know how much work that is to build a nice livecd"
[02:37] <schweeb> gentoo users complaining about compiling?
[02:37] <schweeb> how ironic
[02:37] <\sh> mostly if they're using openoffice-bin ebuilds ;)
[02:38] <schweeb> I'm pretty anti-gentoo-ricer
[02:38] <\sh> I'm not :)
[02:39] <schweeb> hrm, I should do my taxes
[02:39] <\sh> but only because I can setup my servers with special kernel optimizations for stuff like gameservers etc. and for that, binary distributions are quite heavy to maintain...:(
[02:40] <\sh> IMHO :)
[02:41] <schweeb> what do kernel optimizations have to do with the user space, may I ask?
[02:46] <\sh> schweeb: there are some things, you can do on the kernel source, to optimize speed and other things. there are a couple of patches in the world, which gives u more optimization for networks etc. so it's quite nice for gameservers. but only just because the supported gameservers like counterstrike are writte terribly
[02:46] <\sh> need another can of coffee..
[02:48] <schweeb> right, but anything you change in kernel space helps you out in user space no matter whether you compiled your user space or whether it's a binary distro user space
[02:51] <\sh> schweeb: thing is, those gameserver are binary only...
[02:51] <\sh> so u can't change things in the userspace and you have to adjust things in kernel space...
[02:52] <\sh> schweeb: check counterstrike servers for linux...they're provided binary only
[02:53] <schweeb> I wasn't commenting on the binary servers
[02:53] <schweeb> you said binary distributions are heavy to maintain.... and that kernels are harder to patch on binary distributions (completely untrue)
[02:54] <schweeb> I'm saying you can do the same kernel things using a binary based distro like Ubuntu that you can do with a source based distro like Gentoo
[02:55] <\sh> schweeb: right, but the way how to maintain it is quite different.
[02:55] <schweeb> meh.
[02:56] <\sh> schweeb: it's easier to maintain a patchset and a vanilla kernel source inside a ports/portage tree, than to create a lets say rpm source package or debian source package and putting them as binary packages on the server.
[02:57] <\sh> we did it @lycos europe. playin around with hundreds of debian (woody) based servers,
[02:57] <\sh> and have the time to create packages for your systems.
[02:58] <schweeb> make-kpkg ?
[02:58] <schweeb> am I the only one that knows about make-pkg?
[02:59] <\sh> :) yeah :) but to maintain 5 different patchsets of kernel patches and provide them to the right machines :) it takes some time to setup this infrastructure..
[02:59] <\sh> and for 13 or lets say under 50 servers it's easier to setup a cvs tree and provide some ebuilds for different purposes
[03:01] <\sh> @lycos it was just like this: create patches for 5 different x86 kernel layouts, test them, test them with applications applied, make debian packages, update 5 different apt-get repositories, update all the machines and distribute the new packages via cfengine
[03:01] <\sh> the infrastructure was different than I have it here :)
[03:03] <schweeb> you could have appended a string to the version to each of the 5 different kernels :p
[03:03] <schweeb> since they're named linux-image-2.x.x-blah anyways ;)
[03:04] <\sh> schweeb: no..:) all of our 5 different x86 boxes had different work orders ;) so we had a couple more self made packages
[03:04] <\sh> and the sources.list of those were different at this time
[03:05] <Burgundavia> ogra, poing
[03:05] <\sh> but it was more the problem of the purchase department
[03:06] <\sh> nevermind  :) you can do all the work with all distros if you want....via locally installed version of redhat network for rpm based distros, or local apt-get repositories for debian based distros etc. pp.
[03:06] <\sh> finally I worked with all of them...
[03:06] <ogra> Burgundavia, pingeling
[03:06] <\sh> redhat network when i was working for rh
[03:06] <Burgundavia> ogra, am working on the gis stuff
[03:07] <\sh> apt repos at lycos
[03:07] <Burgundavia> ogra, looking for stuff that is in debian
[03:07] <Burgundavia> ogra, etc.
[03:07] <\sh> and plain cvs ebuild trees right now ;)
[03:07] <ogra> Burgundavia, ?
[03:07] <Burgundavia> ogra, take a look: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UbuntuGIS
[03:07] <ogra> ah, yep
[03:08] <Burgundavia> ogra, that useful?
[03:08] <ogra> i saw today that grass 6.0 and mapserver is in debian already, will make it a lot easier...
[03:09] <Burgundavia> figured if we sort out what is not in debian, then those who know gis can figure out what we actually need to package
[03:09] <ogra> Burgundavia, OH
[03:09] <ogra> WOW
[03:09] <Burgundavia> not finished yet
[03:09] <Burgundavia> only on D :)
[03:10] <ogra> woah, thats quite nice
[03:10] <ogra> hmm,  Avpython - for Arcgis ?
[03:11] <ogra> why is that not useful ?
[03:11] <Burgundavia> arcgis is a commericial gis app
[03:11] <ogra> whats the prob with that....
[03:11] <Burgundavia> figured we would want to concentrate on a complete oss stack
[03:12] <Burgundavia> arcgis is a bitch to install, btw, I have done it
[03:12] <ogra> the plan is to encourage ISVs to provide ubuntu packages and to have a good default set of OSS apps
[03:12] <Burgundavia> ahh
[03:12] <Burgundavia> ok
[03:12] <Burgundavia> I will list under "need commericial app"
[03:13] <ogra> so something like avpython could go into a ubuntu-gis-commercial metapackage
[03:13] <Burgundavia> yah
[03:13] <Burgundavia> there is a ton of stuff out there
[03:13] <Burgundavia> need to weed out a lot of the chaff
[03:13] <ogra> the free stuff in a ubuntu-gis pkg...
[03:14] <Burgundavia> once we figure out what is in debian, we can figure out where in the stack it fits, and what else occupies that niche
[03:14] <ogra> yep
[03:14] <Burgundavia> ok
[03:14] <Burgundavia> this is going to take a few hours, so I will get back to it
[03:14] <ogra> wow, great work, really
[03:17] <\sh> *yawn*
[03:31] <ogra> Burgundavia, look at this: http://plonemap.makina-corpus.org/
[03:34] <Burgundavia> nifty
[03:34] <ogra> python and plone.... sabdfl will like it i guess...
[03:35] <ogra> looks like a good candidate for UbuntuWorldWide
[03:36] <Burgundavia> is it packaged for deb/ubu?
[03:37] <ogra> nope
[03:37] <ogra> but a good candidate
[03:43] <\sh> grmpf...fighting with dsl disconnection and dircproxy
[03:49] <ajmitch_> tired already, \sh?
[03:49] <\sh> ajmitch_: a bit :) but my coffee can is refilled right now :)
[03:50] <\sh> ajmitch_: u know, with 34 u are not able to have a 24 hour day without sleep anymore ;)
[03:51] <ajmitch_> hehe :)
[03:51] <ajmitch_> thi sirc client is annoying - it sometimes doesn't show the last 10 lines or so
[03:52] <thom> ajmitch_: which?
[03:52] <\sh> ajmitch_: and if you're overdoing it without sleep, you will look like ogra ,-)
[03:53] <schweeb> ajmitch_: use irssi, it's the best ever
[03:53] <ogra> \sh, nooo, youre mistaking me, i'm adjusing myself for the new TZ ;)
[03:53] <\sh> ogra: hahaha
[03:53] <ajmitch_> using bitchx in screen - probably an issue with screen resizing
[03:54] <schweeb> bitchx - 10% IRC client, 90% quit message :P
[03:54] <ajmitch_> probably
[03:54] <thom> schweeb: not even 10% ;-)
[03:54] <schweeb> thom: lol
[03:55] <\sh> well...I think we will never get the coolness of Bero
[03:55] <\sh> First time i met him, it was 2000 in stuttgart, and he packaged kde rpms
[03:56] <\sh> I think he never used kde, but he was responsible for the rpm packages.
[03:57] <\sh> so, he used pine for his email stuff, plain vi for editing and changelog messages and ircII as irc client...and nothing in a xterm..only plain console...this guy was really scary :)
[03:58] <\sh> and the most scary thing was he worn sandals
[03:59] <\sh> but he is a genius
[04:00] <\sh> i should write a book about open source devs ;)
[04:07] <\sh> I can't see anything anymore...time to sleep ...
[04:07] <\sh> cya laters
[06:18] <dholbach> morning
[06:20] <schweeb> so where are you hailing from now, dholbach
[06:21] <dholbach> my parents place
[06:21] <dholbach> but will visit a friend later, then my sister (fix her computer) and then an ex-girlfriend
[06:27] <ajmitch_> on your global tour :)
[06:28] <dholbach> will start getting global tomorrow evening ;-)
[06:29] <ajmitch_> heh
[06:29] <ajmitch_> I don't fly out to sydney for another week
[06:29] <ajmitch_> I don't even spend enough time on the plane to flatten the laptop battery ;)
[06:30] <dholbach> but you won't have to struggle through some days of jetlag for that tiny hop :-)
[06:30] <dholbach> hahaha :-)
[06:31] <dholbach> :-)
[06:32] <ajmitch_> I'll probbly see you on the 24th in the afternoon/evening
[06:32] <ajmitch_> since I'll be doing other stuff on the saturday
[06:32] <ajmitch_> & sunday morning
[06:33] <dholbach> cool :-)
[06:33] <dholbach> i never thought we'd meet each other THAT fast :-)
[06:34] <ajmitch_> heh
[06:35] <ajmitch_> what's the current UDU MOTU count?
[06:35] <dholbach> you, me, ogra, Riddell, tseng, koke, so 6, right?
[06:36] <dholbach> enough to flatten every "main" beachvolleyball team ;-)
[06:36] <ajmitch_> ah yes, Riddell is still a MOTU :)
[06:38] <dholbach> sounds like some made-up baby language UDU-MOTU :-)
[06:38] <ajmitch_> haha
[07:47] <dholbach> bye
[10:23] <siretart> hi
[10:23] <siretart> katie is very nice, she sent my an email that my package has been accepted to ubuntu: pong2 :)
[10:23] <d3vic3> he
[10:23] <d3vic3> heh
[10:26] <ajmitch> great :)
[10:32] <koke> hi motus!
[10:36] <ajmitch> hey koke!
[10:37] <ajmitch> when are you going to .au?
[10:37] <koke> I arrive 24 at 05:55 AM
[10:37] <ajmitch> ouch, that's early :)
[10:38] <ajmitch> long flight?
[10:38] <koke> yeah !
[10:38] <koke> quite long
[10:38] <ajmitch> about 3 hours for me
[10:38] <koke> I left home 22 at 08:00 AM :D
[10:39] <koke> it was more like that for me in mataro
[10:39] <ajmitch> where are you?
[10:39] <siretart> can anyone of you recommend me a good, usabel python plugin for eclipse?
[10:39] <koke> Zaragoza, Spain
[10:39] <ajmitch> siretart: sorry, I've hardly used eclipse
[10:40] <ajmitch> I mainly use emacs :)
[10:40] <siretart> :)
[10:40] <siretart> perhaps I sould switch back to xemacs..
[10:40] <koke> hey, are you already using breezy
[10:40] <koke> ?
[10:41] <koke> I'd like to know how painful is before upgrading
[10:41] <ajmitch> nope, haven't upgraded yet
[10:41] <koke> I need a working system :D
[10:41] <ajmitch> :)
[10:41] <ajmitch> you've still got a week to fix it ;)
[10:42] <siretart> pydev.sf.net looking promising.. lets see
[10:43] <ajmitch> koke: do you think I should upgrade now :)
[10:44] <koke> actually I just need vim+ssh+a browser to work
[10:44] <koke> so I'll do it!!
[10:45] <ajmitch> died pretty quick
[10:45] <ajmitch> Preparing to replace linux-kernel-headers 2.5.999-test7-bk-17 (using .../linux-kernel-headers_2.6.11.2-0ubuntu2_i386.deb) ...
[10:45] <ajmitch> Unpacking replacement linux-kernel-headers ...
[10:45] <ajmitch> dpkg: error processing /var/cache/apt/archives/linux-kernel-headers_2.6.11.2-0ubuntu2_i386.deb (--unpack):
[10:45] <ajmitch>  trying to overwrite `/usr/include/asm/kdebug.h', which is also in package amd64-libs-dev
[10:46] <koke> :D
[10:47] <ajmitch> cool, I wonder if I've screwed up glibc yet :-D
[10:49] <koke> update-manager scares me with 358 updates available :)
[10:50] <koke> ouch perlpanel and glade-gnome-2 are broken :(
[10:51] <ajmitch> it's already in bugzilla, so nothing I can do :)
[10:52] <ajmitch> I can't install anything yet
[10:52] <koke> Oh mY dOg! I'm not going to remove tomboy
[10:52] <ajmitch> haha
[10:54] <Amaranth> koke: libgda update did that
[10:54] <koke> I see
[10:54] <Amaranth> koke: Doesn't matter, tomboy won't run anymore for me anyway.
[10:54] <koke> I'll keep the old version, here we go....
[10:54] <ajmitch> Amaranth: you've managed to upgrade to breezy?
[10:54] <Amaranth> Repeat: tomboy doesn't work on breezy
[10:54] <Amaranth> More or less.
[10:54] <ajmitch> interesting
[10:54] <Amaranth> I had to downgrade gazpacho to make it work, otherwise no major issues.
[10:55] <ajmitch> not even this linux-kernel-headers issue?
[10:55] <ajmitch> which is one of the first packages to upgrade?
[10:55] <Amaranth> what issue?
[10:55] <ajmitch> file conflict with amd64-libs-dev
[10:55] <Amaranth> Ah, I'm on i386
[10:56] <ajmitch> which gcc-4.0 depends on
[10:56] <ajmitch> on i386 as well
[10:56] <ajmitch> and l-k-h is needed by libc6-dev :)
[10:56] <Amaranth> I don't have an amd64-libs-dev
[10:56] <ajmitch> interesting
[10:56] <Amaranth> Why would I? I'm not on amd64
[10:56] <ajmitch> it's a package for i386, for building amd64 stuff
[10:57] <Amaranth> oh
[10:57] <ajmitch> bug is filed, so someone will fix it
[10:57] <ajmitch> I'll just leave the upgrade for another day :)
[11:18] <\sh> morning guys
[11:18] <tseng> hi
[11:18] <\sh> why the hell i can always sleep only <6 hours
[11:20] <Treenaks> \sh: eternal jet-lag?
[11:22] <koke> dpkg: error processing /var/cache/apt/archives/mono-assemblies-base_1.0.5-3_all.deb (--unpack):
[11:22] <koke>  trying to overwrite `/usr/lib/mono', which is also in package libdbus-cil
[11:22] <koke> doh!
[11:23] <\sh> Treenaks: no..i think it's my age...older people are needing less sleep than younger people ;)
[11:24] <tseng> koke: thats been a problem forever
[11:25] <tseng> dpkg -i -- force-overwrite it
[11:41] <koke> tseng thanks :D
[11:41] <GheRivero> res
[11:42] <tseng> koke: np
[11:49] <tseng> is anyone taking notes on the proposed development handbook?
[11:49] <tseng> i want to be sure to include some bits on proper proceedure for doing a cvs/svn release
[11:49] <Treenaks> there is one? :P
[11:49] <tseng> well ive seen some really broken ones
[11:49] <Treenaks> oh yes
[11:50] <tseng> the guy that did 3rd party mono totally effed his snapshot
[11:50] <tseng> i couldnt easily uupdate on it
[11:50] <tseng> as he named it releasefinalver-enoch
[11:51] <Treenaks> tseng: a bit about version numbers would be nice too
[11:51] <tseng> yep
[11:51] <tseng> the new maint guide covers most things, but misses a few that are important to motu
[11:51] <tseng> and is boring to read
[11:51] <Treenaks> especially that
[11:52] <tseng> i think it would be useful if it started with cdbs, and the sample package
[11:52] <Treenaks> and if it was written in a more informal style
[11:53] <sivang> howdy all!
[11:53] <tseng> without making you learn every debian{install,files,foo} first
[11:53] <Treenaks> hey sivang
[11:53] <sivang> talkinga bout an ubuntu developmetn book?
[11:53] <tseng> that would be more ofa reference laster
[11:53] <tseng> -s
[11:53] <sivang> Treenaks: Yo dude, 'sup?
[11:53] <tseng> yes, but i cant type
[11:53] <tseng> so i should be excluded :P
[11:53] <Treenaks> tseng: you're better than I am
[11:54] <tseng> heh.
[11:54] <tseng> i haver a very busy weekend
[11:54] <tseng> and then we have UDU
[11:54] <tseng> we can talk about it more there
[11:54] <Treenaks> well, I'm not coming to UDU :(
[11:54] <tseng> :(
[11:55] <Treenaks> but I will go somewhere this year
[11:55] <tseng> great.
[11:55] <Treenaks> no idea where yet though :)
[11:55] <Treenaks> not guadec, not debconf, maybe linuxtag..
[11:56] <Treenaks> "the next ubuntu conference", for sure :)
[11:57] <tseng> well hopefully i find sometime to start a draft
[11:57] <tseng> the new maint guide looks like a big stumbling block to me
[11:57] <Treenaks> oh, and I plan on doing a micro tour of europe anyway... just to do some keysigning/beer drinking/etc :)
[11:58] <tseng> mm keysigning
[11:58] <Treenaks> nothing concrete yet though
[11:59] <Treenaks> tseng: well, not just keysigning.. also a little (very little ;)) sightseeing etc.
[11:59] <tseng> hah.
[12:04] <koke> wel, sooo, I'm on breezy now :D
[12:04] <koke> but I'm not breave enough to restart gnome :D
[12:07] <\sh> dholbach: ping
[12:07] <ajmitch> \sh: he's absent
[12:08] <\sh> right...i should look at the nicklist first ;)
[12:08] <ajmitch> tab-completion helps ;)
[12:09] <\sh> tab-completion?
[12:09] <\sh> ;)
[12:10] <\sh> where r those days, where plain ircII was the standard for irc ;)
[12:11] <ajmitch> long gone
[12:12] <\sh> sad but true
[12:13] <\sh> coffee time and working on the howto
[01:13] <jbailey> ajmitch: Nope.  I have that bug, and just haven't done that package yet.
[01:26] <ajmitch> jbailey: doesn't bother me too much, I'm not in  much of a rush to upgrade just so I can have the 'latest'
[01:26] <ajmitch> since it's only a 400MHz headless box anyway - I run GNOME using a remote Xnest ;)
[01:27] <Ben2004uk> hey,  i would really like to get involved in the ubuntu community,  i was just wondering how
[01:28] <ajmitch> great, you want to do packaging, coding, doc writing, other?
[01:28] <ajmitch> I'm sure there's plenty around ;)
[01:28] <Ben2004uk> well ive never worked on a project before - done a bit of coding - C, Java, Ruby,  and I can write English fairly well :)
[01:29] <Ben2004uk> but i'm willing to do anything really
[01:29] <ajmitch> not done any debian/ubuntu packaging?
[01:29] <ajmitch> ok
[01:29] <ajmitch> well, there's a few of us MOTUs
[01:29] <ajmitch> who have to care for about 15000+ packages in universe
[01:29] <Ben2004uk> no,  so hoping someone could point me in the direction to start....
[01:29] <ajmitch> www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MOTU is what we are
[01:29] <ajmitch> which has some resources linked on that, if you care to help out in that area
[01:30] <Ben2004uk> cool
[01:31] <ajmitch> the massive sync from sid has just been done, so we need to get on top of merging patches, doing QA, etc :)
[01:31] <ajmitch> I'm not sure who'll still be around here in the next week or two
[01:31] <ajmitch> some people have started travelling already to the conference
[01:31] <Ben2004uk> oh right
[01:32] <Ben2004uk> so how should I start?
[01:32] <ajmitch> for packaging, there are various materials such as the debian new maintainers guide to look at
[01:33] <ajmitch> we're only working on breezy now, which is a little rough around the edges at the moment ;)
[01:33] <Ben2004uk> :D
[01:34] <Ben2004uk> yeah cause i looked in here just before hoary was released but i thought it was the wrong time to start as everyone seemed really busy
[01:34] <ajmitch> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UniverseCxxTransition <-- we've got a lot of packages that will eventually need fixed up for g++ 4.0
[01:35] <ajmitch> although 3.3 is still default for c++ compiling
[01:36] <Ben2004uk> so i take it, they would need to be compiled from source in 4.0,  checked for bugs again then packaged then checked then added to universe?
[01:39] <ajmitch> the source will already be in universe
[01:39] <ajmitch> once g++-4.0 is default, we have to compile, test, fix, upload fixes
[01:39] <ajmitch> we only do source uploads to ubuntu
[01:39] <Ben2004uk> whens 4.0 default?
[01:39] <Ben2004uk> oh rtight
[01:40] <ajmitch> dunno yet, check with jbailey :)
[01:40] <Ben2004uk> :)
[01:40] <ajmitch> or doko, but he's not around
[01:40] <Amaranth> after udu is what i've been hearing
[01:40] <jbailey> Eh?
[01:40] <Ben2004uk> brb
[01:40] <jbailey> Oh, c++ transition.
[01:40] <jbailey> Massive suck.
[01:41] <ajmitch> Amaranth: yeah, afaik
[01:41] <jbailey> The problem is that there are package renames to be done and all that to make upgrades smooth.  We have to figure out how to sanely do that and 1) Not diverge from Debian to the point that it's hard to resync. 2) Not have a tiny MOTU base doing working that would usually be spread out over 1000 developers.
[01:42] <ajmitch> jbailey: if we get common agreement with debian on versioning, etc, it should make it easier for debian when we push changes back
[01:43] <Amaranth> If everything is going to get a new package name how are upgrades going to work?
[01:43] <jbailey> ajmitch: Dude, Debian usually can't agree with itself on transitions like this - We're not going to get a simply blanket agreement on the right way to do things.
[01:44] <Amaranth> I bet they'll be willing to accept it after it's done though.
[01:44] <ajmitch> jbailey: true, sadly
[01:44] <ajmitch> hah
[01:44] <ajmitch> you don't know how stubborn some developers are
[01:44] <Amaranth> oh, where was i?
[01:44] <Ben2004uk> back
[01:44] <Amaranth> it's a little easier when you have 54 people instead of 1000 :)
[01:45] <jbailey> ajmitch: I don't?
[01:45] <ajmitch> jbailey: was referring to Amaranth :)
[01:45] <jbailey> ajmitch: Ah.  I was about to break out with a "When I was your age...."
[01:45] <ajmitch> how much older are you?
[01:45] <jbailey> Amaranth: I think size of the team is less important in this case than the CoC and the TB.
[01:46] <jbailey> Amaranth: I don't know that MOTU would scale to 1000 without problems, but we at least have tools in place to reduce flame wars and get technical decisions made.
[01:46] <Amaranth> true
[01:47] <Amaranth> TB and sabdfl
[01:47] <Ben2004uk> so where do u recommend me starting - reading over Debian New Maintainers' Guide? and then coming back after udu?
[01:47] <Amaranth> They make a decision and if you don't like it too bad. :)
[01:48] <ajmitch> Ben2004uk: or if you have packages that you find that need fixing, fix them up, provide source packages for us to review & we'll see what we can do :)
[01:48] <ajmitch> also submit bugs in malone & in debian bts (if applicable)
[01:48] <Ben2004uk> malone?
[01:49] <ajmitch> launchpad.ubuntu.com/malone
[01:49] <ajmitch> the new bug tracker that we're using
[01:49] <ajmitch> feel free to make suggestions about improving malone, too :)
[01:51] <Ben2004uk> cool
[01:51] <Ben2004uk> looks nicer :)
[01:51] <Ben2004uk> ive just been offered a job :D
[01:52] <ajmitch> congrats, what is it?
[01:52] <Ben2004uk> internship for my placement year at uni
[01:52] <ajmitch> great
[01:53] <Ben2004uk> been they said theres two - systems developer and testing so i dont know how they are organising it
[01:53] <Ben2004uk> they are sending me the spec for the tester position to see what i think of it
[01:53] <Treenaks> ajmitch: and the rest?
[01:54] <ajmitch> uni, and a lab demonstrator job @ uni
[01:54] <Treenaks> ah
[01:54] <Ben2004uk> lab demonstrator?? the ppl who walk around and help students?
[01:54] <ajmitch> yep
[01:54] <ajmitch> fills up a bit of time, and provides a bit of $
[01:54] <Ben2004uk> i was pissed my uni didnt offer me that - i got some of the best marks!
[01:54] <ajmitch> heh
[01:55] <Ben2004uk> but i did never turn up to the labs so that migthj have something to do with it
[01:55] <ajmitch> yeah, that does tend to hurt your chances
[01:55] <Ben2004uk> :)
[01:57] <Treenaks> I just write perl for money.. full-time
[01:58] <Ben2004uk> "Trainee Software test Analyst" <---- good position for a someone wanting to go into software developement???
[02:01] <d3vic3> O.o
[02:02] <ajmitch> hi d3vic3
[02:02] <d3vic3> hi ajmitch
[02:05] <ajmitch> ok, sleep time, night all :)
[02:27] <Treenaks> trulux: richt parents? :P
[02:27] <Treenaks> -t
[02:30] <trulux> Treenaks: not really
[02:30] <trulux> AFAIK
[02:30] <trulux> :)
[02:31] <Treenaks> hmm :)
[05:46] <GheRivero> res
[09:41] <Mithrandir> we should package the CVS version of multisync
[09:41] <Mithrandir> since it can sync against evo2 and gnokii stuff
[09:43] <ogra> we should take the one azeem offers ;) so lets convince him....
[09:43] <Mithrandir> yeah
[09:43] <Mithrandir> he's not here now
[09:43] <ogra> is it urgent ?
[09:43] <Mithrandir> well, yes, but I'm building it locally now, so no. :)
[09:44] <ogra> heh
[09:45] <Mithrandir> I just hope I can get this to work, then I'll be able to sync evo and my phone
[09:46] <ogra> freeing up for new contacts in sydney ?
[09:47] <Mithrandir> more "making sure I have a backup"
[09:47] <ogra> heh
[09:47] <Mithrandir> and I've been looking for this for a long time, really
[09:49] <Mithrandir> I want to find a newer one which actually works with BT, since this one is supposed to, but doesn't
[09:49] <\sh> ogra: pen and paper and a coin phone? ,-)
[09:49] <Treenaks> Mithrandir: doesn't your phone do syncml?
[09:50] <ogra> \sh, doesnt keep my numbers.... i tend to loose paper stuff....
[09:51] <\sh> ogra: hint: take you wife with you :) wifes never loose papers ;)
[09:51] <\sh> your even
[09:51] <ogra> \sh, and who cares for all the animals ?
[09:51] <ogra> (and we're not married btw)
[09:51] <\sh> ogra: mom ogra
[09:52] <\sh> ogra: me neither, but it will always be my (ex-)wife :)
[09:52] <\sh> -it+she ;)
[09:54] <Mithrandir> Treenaks: no, 6110
[09:57] <Treenaks> Mithrandir: nasty
[09:59] <ajmitch> morning
[10:08] <\sh> ok...I can't work today...need really to relax...watching blade3 cu laters
[11:46] <tseng> hm i wonder if RML will pop up at UDU
[12:00] <ogra> tseng, is he in .au ?
[12:00] <tseng> heading that way
[12:01] <tseng> according to pgnome