| === jsgotangco [DaWorm@ipdial-246-113.info.com.ph] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| jsgotangco | morning | 01:44 |
|---|---|---|
| mdke | good night :) | 01:44 |
| jsgotangco | acckk | 01:45 |
| jsgotangco | froud's email was long icckkk | 01:45 |
| jsgotangco | but explained clearly | 01:45 |
| mdke | yeah | 01:45 |
| jsgotangco | but golly, my edits still didnt show images i guess he's going to change global.ent | 01:46 |
| jsgotangco | ok ill see you guys later im the one cooking breakfast today | 01:50 |
| jsgotangco | bbl | 01:50 |
| === hypatia [~mary@adsl-66-203.swiftdsl.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| === hypatia [~mary@adsl-66-203.swiftdsl.com.au] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Leaving"] | ||
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| froud | African Greetings | 08:35 |
| Burgundavia | salut | 08:36 |
| Burgundavia | everybody loves 4am meetings | 08:37 |
| jeffsch | hey froud | 08:39 |
| jeffsch | there is a booboo in the i18n solution :( | 08:39 |
| jeffsch | I did some research today to find out why jsgotangco's excellent updates were not working. | 08:40 |
| jeffsch | <!ENTITY % language "&EnglishAmerican;"> is not entirely correct. | 08:40 |
| jeffsch | The '%' makes 'language' a parameter entity. | 08:40 |
| jeffsch | Parameter entities can only be used in a DTD. | 08:41 |
| jeffsch | In the document itself you must use general entities such as '&language;' | 08:41 |
| jeffsch | Therefore, this is how it should be: | 08:42 |
| jeffsch | <!ENTITY language "&EnglishAmerican;"> | 08:42 |
| jeffsch | <imagedata fileref="../../images/&language;/IconUbuntu.png" format="PNG"/> | 08:42 |
| jeffsch | I tried it in yelp with 'C' and 'it' languages. It works like that. | 08:43 |
| jeffsch | I committed a couple of changes. Can you verify that what I did is correct? Then we can update the rest. | 08:44 |
| froud | jeffsch: hi, just hold lemme test | 08:44 |
| froud | yes you a re right | 08:49 |
| froud | it is my fault | 08:49 |
| froud | I did say use a param ent | 08:49 |
| jeffsch | bah. just a typo. | 08:49 |
| froud | no I said use a param ent | 08:49 |
| froud | I must send an update to that message I sent | 08:50 |
| jeffsch | froud: on a different topic: in yelp for quickguide, etc, xref's show up as block elements | 08:53 |
| jeffsch | they are larger fonts, on their own lines, etc | 08:53 |
| jeffsch | but on yelp with update manager they are correctly used as inline elements, with clickable links | 08:54 |
| froud | Yes, I noted this as a bug after release | 08:54 |
| froud | we fixed it at our meeting and then it was forgotten to include it in the releave by the devs | 08:55 |
| froud | geeze I hate being dependant on yelp | 08:55 |
| jeffsch | it's what's there | 08:56 |
| jeffsch | do we have the power to change? | 08:56 |
| froud | Sure | 08:56 |
| froud | For now I would like just to use a plain web browser | 08:56 |
| froud | and research into a new help viewer | 08:56 |
| jeffsch | must build consensus first though. will take some time. | 08:57 |
| froud | Sure | 08:58 |
| froud | did you read the message from JanC | 08:58 |
| froud | I think a blend of wxWidget's/wxPython's help system + a 'system-wide' | 08:58 |
| froud | indexing system like Beagle + maybe yelp could become a better | 08:58 |
| froud | documentation environment... | 08:58 |
| jeffsch | yes, but I didn't look into it... was busy with entities... | 08:59 |
| froud | Burgundavia: yeah 4 am is harsh | 08:59 |
| Burgundavia | I will just stay up | 08:59 |
| Burgundavia | I am the only person out my way anyway | 08:59 |
| froud | I will update them in the other docs | 08:59 |
| froud | What time is it for South Africa | 08:59 |
| jeffsch | Burgundavia: vancouver's not that far :) | 09:00 |
| Burgundavia | ok | 09:00 |
| Burgundavia | I forgot about you | 09:00 |
| froud | The time is UTC and I only know GMT | 09:00 |
| jeffsch | utc = gmt,no? | 09:00 |
| Burgundavia | ahh UTC==GMT? | 09:00 |
| froud | is it? | 09:01 |
| froud | so she means 10 pm GMT? | 09:01 |
| jeffsch | 4am here is 1pm there | 09:01 |
| froud | on Sunday | 09:01 |
| Burgundavia | according to WP it doews | 09:01 |
| jeffsch | 1pm in za | 09:02 |
| froud | so then UTC is not GMT | 09:03 |
| froud | confused | 09:03 |
| froud | I hate the time zones | 09:03 |
| froud | just use internet time | 09:04 |
| froud | used it for 4 years | 09:04 |
| froud | the same time everywhere | 09:04 |
| froud | is there an ez web site work this tuff out | 09:05 |
| Burgundavia | UTC is GMT | 09:05 |
| jeffsch | UTC is GMT. 1200 UTC = 1200 GMT = 1pm za | 09:05 |
| jeffsch | http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/personal.html | 09:05 |
| froud | Oh cause we are =2 or something | 09:07 |
| froud | Burgundavia: | 09:09 |
| froud | Sunday, April 17, 2005 at 10:00:00Sun Noon | 09:09 |
| froud | Sunday, April 17, 2005 at 11:00:00Sun 1:00 PM | 09:09 |
| froud | so 10 is noon | 09:09 |
| Burgundavia | ok | 09:09 |
| froud | Hmm thanks for that web site | 09:09 |
| froud | geeze internet time is so much easier | 09:10 |
| froud | jeffsch: all updates are now done | 09:10 |
| froud | jeffsch: thanks for checking that | 09:10 |
| jeffsch | np | 09:10 |
| froud | ok I have a question for you guys | 09:10 |
| froud | and anyone else who is listening | 09:11 |
| froud | so far we are just going by the seat of our pants when it comes to deining documents | 09:11 |
| froud | defining | 09:11 |
| froud | I think it will be a worthwhile excercise for us to ask the users what they want | 09:12 |
| froud | wiki is perfect for this | 09:12 |
| froud | I want to get Content Specifications, User Analysis and that stuff | 09:13 |
| froud | Lets actualy learn who the audience is and what tasks they want to know about | 09:13 |
| froud | how long using linux and what problems did they have | 09:14 |
| froud | put a poll up and ask for answers and provide place to give commnet | 09:14 |
| froud | thoughts? | 09:14 |
| Burgundavia | sounds good | 09:15 |
| jeffsch | let's just cut to the chase and design for users new to linux, but not new to computers. | 09:15 |
| jeffsch | aren't they the target market? | 09:15 |
| froud | not really | 09:15 |
| froud | you see we also have admins | 09:16 |
| froud | and people who have used linux | 09:16 |
| jeffsch | people new to administering linux? or people new to administering ubuntu? | 09:16 |
| froud | My normal, formal approach, to writing is 4 steps: | 09:17 |
| froud | 1. Create goals and objectives for the publication | 09:17 |
| froud | 2. Analyze the product, audience, and environment | 09:17 |
| froud | 3. Analyze the tasks the audience wants to perform | 09:17 |
| froud | 4. Organize the publications and prepare rational | 09:18 |
| froud | This gives me: | 09:19 |
| jeffsch | that's pretty much what I learned in school. make a document plan - it has user-task analysis, TOC, etc | 09:19 |
| froud | a. Purpose of the guide | 09:19 |
| froud | b. Product Desription | 09:19 |
| froud | c. Audience profile | 09:19 |
| froud | d task analysis | 09:20 |
| froud | from this I can outline to the exact user requirements | 09:20 |
| mpt | sounds good | 09:20 |
| froud | jeffsch: yes, obviously it is more complex | 09:20 |
| froud | mpt: hi, please to meet you | 09:20 |
| mpt | likewise | 09:20 |
| froud | mpt: thanks for your feedabck | 09:20 |
| mpt | arg | 09:21 |
| froud | I think by putting it open for contributions form the users we can get a better handle on what we should do | 09:21 |
| mpt | I meant to reply to Mary's message but it got lost in Thunderbird | 09:21 |
| froud | we have not done this | 09:21 |
| froud | Maybe people at Canonical can help us short circuit this if they have market and user analysis already done | 09:22 |
| froud | mpt? | 09:22 |
| mpt | I doubt that | 09:22 |
| mpt | but that's not really my area | 09:22 |
| mpt | You'd be better asking jdub about that, I think | 09:23 |
| froud | Then I think this excercise will have huge benefit outside the docteam | 09:23 |
| mpt | other than being the dominant Linux-based OS | 09:23 |
| froud | mpt: nah I just ask Mark | 09:23 |
| mpt | that would work too | 09:23 |
| mpt | though it might be slower :-) | 09:23 |
| froud | no he is responsive | 09:24 |
| froud | if it seems important to him | 09:24 |
| froud | another idea | 09:24 |
| froud | I am really tired of Yelp | 09:25 |
| froud | I mean it | 09:25 |
| mpt | so fork it | 09:25 |
| froud | Oh yeah and develop it? | 09:25 |
| froud | no, short circuit me = lazy | 09:25 |
| Burgundavia | yelp is also gtk | 09:25 |
| froud | me = focus on docs | 09:25 |
| mpt | Well, which would be quicker? Adding search to yelp, or writing a new help viewer? | 09:25 |
| froud | using any browser XHTML/HTML + CSS and jscript | 09:26 |
| froud | htdig search | 09:26 |
| jeffsch | is that the only thing wrong with yelp? lack of search? | 09:26 |
| froud | jeffsch: no | 09:26 |
| froud | poor custom abilities without editing the source | 09:27 |
| froud | proprietry tags like ghelp | 09:27 |
| mpt | custom abilities like what? | 09:27 |
| mpt | Like <a href="some-magic">Open the Keyboard applet for me</a> | 09:27 |
| mpt | ? | 09:27 |
| froud | use an dubuntu custom layer to style the resulting output not only that of yelp | 09:28 |
| froud | invalid processing instructions like <?yelp:chunk-depth 3?> | 09:28 |
| froud | lack of support for docbook 4.3 > | 09:29 |
| froud | lack of support for SVG | 09:29 |
| froud | thi slist is long | 09:29 |
| froud | oh an dit is slow on mpt 's lappy | 09:29 |
| mpt | heh | 09:29 |
| mpt | and ... | 09:30 |
| froud | chaps I think like this | 09:30 |
| froud | you all know how the quick guide looks | 09:30 |
| mpt | ... 19 seconds! | 09:30 |
| froud | imagine if you have associated tasks on the right side of the screencapt | 09:30 |
| froud | a list that is dynamically built by jscript and formatted using css | 09:31 |
| froud | Ability to do popups | 09:32 |
| froud | ability to create comments inline to the help system | 09:32 |
| froud | ability to share comments and send them | 09:32 |
| mpt | I'm trying to think of use cases for dynamically built lists and popups | 09:32 |
| froud | mpt: easy | 09:32 |
| mpt | Apple Help uses HTML nowadays, but the result is that every non-Apple help file looks different, and that's bad | 09:33 |
| froud | This is x app. It is use to do Y. | 09:33 |
| mpt | e.g. different font sizes for no reason | 09:33 |
| froud | alongside all the tasks assocaited with the app | 09:33 |
| froud | our stylesheets control that | 09:33 |
| froud | Apple should use Docbook | 09:34 |
| mpt | wait, wait | 09:34 |
| mpt | So Apple should switch from HTML to Docbook, and Ubuntu should switch from Docbook to HTML? | 09:34 |
| mpt | :-) | 09:34 |
| froud | mpt: no | 09:34 |
| froud | we use docbook as a semantic format for storage | 09:34 |
| froud | it is presnetation layer neutral | 09:34 |
| froud | we transform from xml to html | 09:35 |
| froud | or pdf or ps or rtf or what ever | 09:35 |
| froud | yelp does this under the covers | 09:35 |
| froud | that is one reason why it takes so long to load | 09:35 |
| mpt | Why does it do any transformations at all? | 09:36 |
| === mpt knows little about yelp | ||
| froud | yelp takes raw xml and transfroms it to html for viewing | 09:36 |
| froud | xml is not a presentation format | 09:37 |
| mpt | XML+CSS is presentable | 09:37 |
| mpt | ah, but it's not linkable | 09:37 |
| froud | it seperates the concrns of content and presentation | 09:37 |
| froud | not so easy | 09:37 |
| mpt | XML+XSL even more so | 09:37 |
| froud | mpt: let me explain | 09:38 |
| froud | The Docbook XSLs are powerful | 09:38 |
| froud | we can transform to XHTML, HTML, PDF, HTML help, JAVAHelp, etc | 09:38 |
| froud | it has support for gen texts in i18n | 09:39 |
| froud | the work is done | 09:39 |
| mpt | ok | 09:39 |
| froud | we put Docbook XML and XSL into an xslt processor | 09:39 |
| froud | that gives us a presentation format | 09:39 |
| froud | the format depends on the XSL used | 09:40 |
| froud | now we dont hack the docbook package sources | 09:40 |
| froud | we create a custom layer | 09:40 |
| froud | this allows us to change the standard formating provided by the docbook packages | 09:40 |
| froud | when the docbook packages are upgraded we inherit all the updaes | 09:41 |
| froud | and all we do is maintain our custom later | 09:41 |
| mpt | So can you get rid of those previous and next links at the bottom of each page, for example? | 09:41 |
| froud | yes | 09:41 |
| mpt | hooray | 09:41 |
| froud | but not in yelp | 09:41 |
| mpt | then what? | 09:42 |
| froud | because we would have to hack the yelp xsl and compile it again | 09:42 |
| froud | so I say screw yelp | 09:42 |
| froud | it is to inlexible and give overhead | 09:42 |
| froud | go to any browser | 09:42 |
| froud | we have ful control | 09:42 |
| Burgundavia | browser isn't much faster to load though | 09:43 |
| mpt | ok, but you're still going to need to make a help viewer, froud | 09:43 |
| froud | in our custom layer | 09:43 |
| froud | no | 09:43 |
| froud | for now we do HTML Help | 09:43 |
| froud | and CSS it and manipulate with jscript | 09:43 |
| froud | this gives us a toc and pages | 09:43 |
| froud | we have full control of the toc | 09:44 |
| froud | a search facility is also easy | 09:44 |
| mpt | actual Web browser chrome, complete with bookmarks bars and "Send Link..." and cookie prefs and its own help menu that's mostly about browsing, just would not work as a help UI | 09:44 |
| froud | mpt: atually most people spend there time on the web looking for help | 09:45 |
| froud | thier | 09:45 |
| mpt | I thought most people spent their time on the web bidding on auctions and looking at porn | 09:46 |
| Burgundavia | mpt, that is most office workers | 09:46 |
| froud | amongst other things | 09:46 |
| froud | mpt: I am not saying using a full web browser is the ideal answer | 09:46 |
| froud | I amsaying that it is workable immediately | 09:47 |
| froud | with a level of control to us | 09:47 |
| froud | oneday, maybe somebody will build a good help viewer | 09:47 |
| froud | but frankly I think the days of help viewers are numbered in single digits | 09:47 |
| mpt | I'm still waiting for a good one | 09:48 |
| mpt | but even Windows ME's one was better than a Web browser | 09:48 |
| froud | mpt: by going this route we have another advantage | 09:49 |
| froud | the help system can be loaded from a web server or local disk | 09:49 |
| mpt | That involves fun security considerations | 09:49 |
| froud | like | 09:50 |
| mpt | like, the various security vulnerabilities in the Windows help viewer that, over the years, have allowed attackers to run arbitrary programs | 09:50 |
| froud | I dont se the point | 09:50 |
| mpt | because it uses the IE HTML rendering engine | 09:50 |
| mpt | and can view remote stuff | 09:51 |
| froud | and we will use any browsers rendering engine | 09:51 |
| froud | I still dont see why this is a problem | 09:51 |
| mpt | ok, so | 09:51 |
| mpt | how do you get the search field into the UI? | 09:52 |
| froud | loading a page from a web site is something mils of user do every day | 09:52 |
| froud | Ah ha, XForms | 09:52 |
| === claude [~claude@99.236.203.62.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| froud | and andthing like cgi | 09:52 |
| froud | even python | 09:52 |
| froud | there are numbers of tools for that | 09:52 |
| froud | Goodness we can even integrate google | 09:53 |
| froud | or lucerne | 09:53 |
| froud | the power is endless | 09:53 |
| froud | for admins help can be installe don the server only | 09:54 |
| froud | for home users on thier local | 09:54 |
| mpt | So, no help topic on "Troubleshooting server connections" then? :-) | 09:55 |
| froud | topics need to be analyzed | 09:55 |
| froud | and can be personalized | 09:55 |
| === jsgotangco [DaWorm@info9-4.info.com.ph] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| mpt | Do any other OSes personalize the topics in their help system? | 09:56 |
| jsgotangco | froud: i screwed up? | 09:56 |
| mpt | That sounds like running before walking to me | 09:56 |
| froud | jsgotangco: no I did | 09:56 |
| froud | mpt: vision dude | 09:56 |
| jsgotangco | it should have been & then | 09:56 |
| froud | just caus ethey dont have does not mean it is not wanted | 09:56 |
| froud | jsgotangco: yes, my mistake , sorry | 09:57 |
| froud | thanks to jeffsch for spotting it | 09:57 |
| jeffsch | froud: you forgot <!ENTITY language "&EnglishAmerican;"> | 09:57 |
| froud | mpt: you complain about it but fail to look beyond for a better solution | 09:57 |
| jeffsch | I am changing them now | 09:58 |
| froud | jeffsch: why does that need changing? | 09:58 |
| froud | jeffsch: you mean in the i18n docs | 09:58 |
| mpt | froud: I'm not complaining, I'm wondering why you don't just take the first step first | 09:58 |
| jeffsch | froud: yes | 09:58 |
| froud | what is that first step, where does it lead | 09:58 |
| mpt | froud: which is to start with the things most people will be wanting to know, most of the time | 09:58 |
| froud | jeffsch: yes, thanks | 09:58 |
| mpt | froud: then if you get really smart later, you can personalize it | 09:59 |
| froud | lets seperate things here | 09:59 |
| froud | the help system app and the content it displays | 09:59 |
| froud | for content I am proposing we do an analysis that includes user inpt | 10:00 |
| froud | for the help system I am prposing moving away from yelp so that we can excert control | 10:01 |
| jsgotangco | i'd go for the migrant's guide (like playing stuff, office work, etc.) | 10:01 |
| mpt | froud, unless you're going to collect that user input by sneaking up behind people using Ubuntu and watching them, I think you'd be better just to guess | 10:01 |
| froud | mpt: yelp uses scrollkeeper to decide what goes in the first page | 10:01 |
| mpt | what's scrollkeeper? | 10:01 |
| froud | mpt: I dont think so | 10:01 |
| mpt | froud: Because any other way you collect it -- surveys, wiki pages, mailing lists, whatever -- acts as an enormous barrier to entry. The kind of people who most need help are the kind of people who will never edit a wiki or post on a mailing list. | 10:02 |
| mpt | And in surveys in general, people will lie so as not to sound dumb. | 10:02 |
| froud | mpt: as I said, this is why one has to understand the doc systems. I hear your grievances, I agree with most, but to get a solution I must think outside the box | 10:03 |
| jsgotangco | are you saying we make our guide like a dummies book? | 10:03 |
| mpt | So, my suggestion is: guess. :-) | 10:03 |
| froud | I want and educated guess | 10:03 |
| mpt | ok, I'll re-reply to Mary's message now | 10:04 |
| froud | mpt: Uhmm, now you leave | 10:04 |
| mpt | eh? | 10:04 |
| froud | mpt: you going | 10:04 |
| mpt | It's 8pm, the cafe closes in an hour or less | 10:04 |
| mpt | I'll hang around here while I can, though | 10:05 |
| froud | I c you are in an Internet Cafe | 10:05 |
| mpt | Yes, no DSL at home yet | 10:05 |
| mpt | and Ubuntu doesn't understand the laptop's modem | 10:05 |
| froud | Oh OK | 10:05 |
| froud | yes heard that from a number of users | 10:05 |
| froud | well team, what do you guys think of this conversation and the ideas we have bashed | 10:06 |
| jsgotangco | ive tuned in late | 10:06 |
| jsgotangco | i still want a dummy guide | 10:06 |
| froud | js read the logs | 10:06 |
| Burgundavia | jsgotangco, dummy guide ala the faqguide is coming | 10:06 |
| froud | dummy guides are good but not like by all | 10:07 |
| Burgundavia | dummy guides sell like hotcakes | 10:07 |
| froud | I dontthink we can say what we want. We should ask the users to gleen what they want, then decide | 10:07 |
| jsgotangco | i would think more of the migrating users | 10:07 |
| Burgundavia | they must have something going for them | 10:07 |
| jeffsch | i still like "let's just cut to the chase and design for users new to linux, but not new to computers." | 10:07 |
| jsgotangco | jeffsch right on target | 10:08 |
| froud | Burgundavia: yes they do cause they address a need in one audience | 10:08 |
| jsgotangco | people who install ubuntu know how to play around with their computers | 10:08 |
| Burgundavia | froud, a very large audience, if the sales are to be believed | 10:08 |
| froud | but for my user profile I want O'Reilly or SAMS | 10:08 |
| Burgundavia | froud, so do I, but I don't need docs written for me | 10:08 |
| Burgundavia | I can search the internet for that | 10:08 |
| froud | The major market segment is huge | 10:08 |
| froud | Burgundavia: no we use man pages | 10:09 |
| froud | :-) | 10:09 |
| Burgundavia | ugh, man pages | 10:09 |
| Burgundavia | what a waste of time mostly | 10:09 |
| jsgotangco | ickk | 10:09 |
| froud | Oh no dude love man pages | 10:09 |
| froud | ssh in to remote and you have help | 10:09 |
| jeffsch | i use them all the time. i always forget command line stuff. | 10:10 |
| froud | I am speaking about no GUI here | 10:10 |
| froud | I dont go to yelp for help on commnad stuff | 10:10 |
| jsgotangco | true | 10:10 |
| froud | I just man foo | 10:10 |
| jsgotangco | dont we all | 10:10 |
| Burgundavia | I like GUIs and the power they give | 10:10 |
| Burgundavia | in fact, I like GUIs so much that I hate ugly ones | 10:10 |
| mpt | I wish more man pages had a couple of good examples at the beginning | 10:11 |
| froud | Burgundavia: agree 1000% | 10:11 |
| Burgundavia | ala xmms and mplayer and other gtk1 crap | 10:11 |
| mpt | then I wouldn't need to read the rest of them :-) | 10:11 |
| Burgundavia | mpt, absolutely. Show me, in examples, the 4 most commons ways that program is used | 10:11 |
| froud | mpt: man pages assume a level of proficeincy that is above our user | 10:11 |
| mpt | naturally | 10:12 |
| froud | Burgundavia: if we use the HTML/CSS/JSCRIPT route I am proposing we can break from the top down vertical approach common in current help systems | 10:13 |
| Burgundavia | froud, top down? | 10:13 |
| froud | yes see a gnome manual | 10:13 |
| froud | each topic is vertical | 10:14 |
| froud | it would be nice to have side bars and tool tips | 10:14 |
| froud | Some links dont have to be clicked | 10:14 |
| froud | Just hold your mouse pointer over it | 10:15 |
| jsgotangco | thats not possible with yelp but with a browser based system | 10:15 |
| froud | and you see the text | 10:15 |
| mpt | froud, the thing about help is | 10:15 |
| froud | jsgotangco: that is what I am saying | 10:15 |
| mpt | and help developers on every OS get this wrong | 10:15 |
| mpt | the thing about help is that it needs to be *alongside* what I'm doing | 10:15 |
| mpt | so it needs to be, maybe, 200px wide. | 10:15 |
| froud | mpt: no problem | 10:15 |
| jsgotangco | hmmm | 10:15 |
| mpt | otherwise I keep having to flip between the help and the program I'm trying to use | 10:15 |
| mpt | forward and back, forward and back | 10:15 |
| froud | most programming envs have browser controls | 10:15 |
| mpt | and it's too much bother | 10:16 |
| jsgotangco | alongside, is that similiar to a help system in MS Office | 10:16 |
| Burgundavia | and every time I flip I have to reorient myself | 10:16 |
| mpt | Yes, Works and Office both solve that problem, in slightly different ways | 10:16 |
| jeffsch | mpt: acrobat 7 does that. 200 px wide on right hand side of screen | 10:16 |
| Burgundavia | so we need support for dynamic shrinking | 10:16 |
| froud | using the method I am proposing devs can embed a browser control at any position in the workspace | 10:16 |
| mpt | A pity that the actual OS help system doesn't :-) | 10:16 |
| froud | jeffsch: yes and we can use that | 10:16 |
| Burgundavia | jeffsch, adobe reader 7is evil | 10:17 |
| jeffsch | i not talking about reader. | 10:17 |
| froud | Burgundavia: dynamic shinking is can be done | 10:17 |
| froud | but images | 10:17 |
| jsgotangco | ok if its 200 px wide, it shouldn't be as high as the actual application | 10:17 |
| Burgundavia | jsgotangco, why not? | 10:17 |
| jeffsch | acrobat 7 for creating and manipulating pdf. reviewing docs. | 10:17 |
| Burgundavia | jeffsch, the actual thing, not the reader, ok | 10:18 |
| jsgotangco | Burgundavia you eat up real estate space on the application | 10:18 |
| froud | dudes the technology is not important | 10:18 |
| Burgundavia | jeffsch, I really wish they would rebrand the reader to avoid this kind of confusion | 10:18 |
| froud | the concept is | 10:18 |
| Burgundavia | jsgotangco, but the app has just shrunk 200, so that top corner is going to be wasted | 10:18 |
| jsgotangco | froud maybe something similar to Opera's small screen rendering | 10:18 |
| froud | jsgotangco: yes there is another idea | 10:19 |
| jeffsch | Burgundavia: they more interested in the money than the clarity, i suspect. | 10:19 |
| froud | mypointis that via html route we can do this stuff easily | 10:19 |
| Burgundavia | jeffsch, yes | 10:19 |
| Burgundavia | jeffsch, reader 7 has a semi-spyware in it | 10:19 |
| mpt | oh man | 10:20 |
| === mpt is reading random Gnome help pages | ||
| mpt | this is depressing | 10:20 |
| jsgotangco | what? | 10:20 |
| froud | Ok, I see you guys are not into discussing solutions I am off t go be productive | 10:20 |
| jsgotangco | no | 10:20 |
| jsgotangco | im all for discussion | 10:21 |
| jsgotangco | i believe an html based system is easier and can be changed system wide at the least possible time | 10:21 |
| froud | jsgotangco: yes, but we need the group here | 10:21 |
| froud | trying to keep on topic in IRC is a nighmare | 10:21 |
| froud | I am focused on concepts that will work | 10:22 |
| froud | ideas from the group are important | 10:22 |
| froud | not what technology to use | 10:22 |
| froud | or that x app is evil | 10:23 |
| === daven [~davesheep@83.148.133.161.adsl.griffin.net.uk] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| froud | hello daven | 10:23 |
| jsgotangco | ok resizing the text is quite easy but we'll have a problem in the images/screenshots | 10:23 |
| daven | hiya | 10:23 |
| jsgotangco | but Opera dynamically resizes stuff with SSR | 10:23 |
| froud | jsgotangco: perhaps we can just generate links to images | 10:23 |
| mpt | jsgotangco: If I already have a program open, screenshots are not terribly interesting. | 10:23 |
| jsgotangco | maybe somethine like that | 10:23 |
| froud | jsgotangco: yes that is Opera | 10:23 |
| froud | we need any bowser | 10:23 |
| mpt | jsgotangco: If you have pictures at all, just make them pictures of what button to click. | 10:24 |
| Burgundavia | then we don't need the full power of ff | 10:24 |
| froud | we cannot mandate what user agent our docs will run under | 10:24 |
| jsgotangco | zoom into the actual stuff? | 10:24 |
| Burgundavia | we need mozembed | 10:24 |
| froud | Burgundavia: exaplain | 10:24 |
| Burgundavia | if we are only talked at a minimum 600 tall by 200 wide, then the ui of ff is too much | 10:24 |
| froud | ff? | 10:24 |
| froud | firefox | 10:25 |
| Burgundavia | mozembed is the gecko rendering engine | 10:25 |
| froud | ok | 10:25 |
| froud | why is that a problem | 10:25 |
| Burgundavia | can be really easily done with python | 10:25 |
| froud | how | 10:25 |
| Burgundavia | because the ff ui is already going to eat up 25% of that space, and isn't designed to be run at 200px wide | 10:26 |
| jeffsch | keep in mind 200px is just a number tossed out there | 10:26 |
| jeffsch | it could be more | 10:26 |
| Burgundavia | 200px is already a quarter of someones 800X600 screen | 10:27 |
| froud | OK OK, lets clear something first | 10:27 |
| froud | at present most apps dont support what we are saying here | 10:27 |
| froud | what is importnat is that our format enables them too | 10:27 |
| Burgundavia | and yelp already uses gecko | 10:27 |
| mpt | I never said they had to resize themselves automatically | 10:27 |
| Burgundavia | I am talking a seperate window | 10:27 |
| mpt | I just want to be *able* to have them side by side | 10:27 |
| Burgundavia | not part of the app | 10:27 |
| mpt | the windows, side by side | 10:28 |
| froud | mpt: can be in windows or in embeded expand/collapse control | 10:28 |
| jeffsch | yes, the windows, side by side | 10:29 |
| froud | so long as the window or control reads html/XHML, CSS and supports jscript were fine | 10:29 |
| froud | I thnk that devs will decide on how they will impliment it | 10:29 |
| jeffsch | design the help system, then determine the technology to use | 10:29 |
| froud | what we need to endure is that they can read and render in a standard way | 10:29 |
| froud | jeffsch: yes | 10:29 |
| froud | but keep in mind | 10:30 |
| froud | we must make it flexible and easy for apps and the devs to use | 10:30 |
| froud | the simplest solution IMHO is the X/HTML route | 10:30 |
| froud | our prime focus is not the application layer and we have little control over it | 10:31 |
| froud | what we do have control over is the structure and meat of our content and the format in which we make it accessible | 10:31 |
| froud | we can however suggest various methods for viewing and make input for usability recomendations | 10:32 |
| froud | OK lets see if we have the skill set needed | 10:33 |
| froud | I take it we all are comfortable with docbook | 10:33 |
| froud | and the method we use to transform | 10:33 |
| froud | who codes html here | 10:33 |
| froud | who knows css | 10:34 |
| froud | who knows jscript | 10:34 |
| froud | who understands and can impliment an idexing and search facility | 10:34 |
| jsgotangco | i know html and css | 10:34 |
| jsgotangco | ive done some xml but not docbook but im learning | 10:35 |
| froud | cool any other skills | 10:35 |
| froud | any python boys here | 10:35 |
| jeffsch | I know html, css, jscript, but am far from expert. | 10:35 |
| froud | jeffsch: great | 10:35 |
| jeffsch | I fooled around with python last year. will take some time to get back into it. | 10:35 |
| froud | but you can muddle through | 10:35 |
| froud | enough to finally get waht you want? | 10:36 |
| jeffsch | oh yea. It takes a long time though... lots of poring over python docs | 10:36 |
| froud | ok :-) | 10:37 |
| froud | so with the current speakers we do have the skill set for what we want to do | 10:37 |
| froud | I will focus on the XML and XSLT | 10:37 |
| jeffsch | and the doc content? who will focus on that? | 10:38 |
| froud | :-) all of us | 10:38 |
| froud | but I would like to do the needs analysis before hacking the content this time | 10:39 |
| froud | chaps when I joined this project it was only really enrico and I who were serious | 10:39 |
| froud | 2 people | 10:39 |
| froud | we had people on the list and people in the channel, but they did not do much | 10:40 |
| froud | since then we have quadrupled in size | 10:40 |
| froud | this is both good and bad | 10:40 |
| froud | good we can do more cover more ground | 10:40 |
| froud | bad, we need more organization | 10:40 |
| froud | roles and responsabilities now comes tomind | 10:41 |
| froud | but I am afraid to say it | 10:41 |
| froud | I know that I am commit here | 10:41 |
| froud | I cant speak for everyone | 10:41 |
| froud | some of us may come and go | 10:41 |
| froud | that's open source | 10:41 |
| === jsg [DaWorm@202.163.244.151] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| froud | so I hope people will find what it is they want to do | 10:42 |
| froud | and go for it | 10:42 |
| jsg | sorry about that | 10:42 |
| froud | everyon eon eof us is toatll empoered to do what ever we wish | 10:42 |
| jeffsch | so each doc needs its own plan, its own design, a skeleton. Then people can come and go. just fill in the skeleton | 10:42 |
| jsg | let me check the log first | 10:42 |
| froud | jeffsch: yes that is the idea | 10:43 |
| froud | hence I want specs etc | 10:43 |
| jeffsch | and a style guide | 10:43 |
| froud | jeffsch: that is a big task | 10:43 |
| froud | we need to take styleguides from upstream | 10:44 |
| froud | they are guides not rules | 10:44 |
| jsg | who took html and css i can do that | 10:44 |
| froud | jsg: more hands makes light work | 10:44 |
| jeffsch | big task, but needed with lots of contributors.http://developer.gnome.org/documents/style-guide/ | 10:44 |
| froud | jeffsch: the specs etc are also good for new people joining mid stream | 10:45 |
| jsg | souds good to me | 10:45 |
| froud | it defines for them points where we are and wer ethey can fit | 10:45 |
| froud | it saves us having the problem I had with Burgundavia | 10:45 |
| === froud winkes at Burgundavia | ||
| Burgundavia | what issue? There was no issue | 10:46 |
| jsg | i've messed with ruby not python :( | 10:46 |
| froud | we are now at the beginning of a release cycle, if we spend 10% of our time planning it will save us much headache | 10:46 |
| froud | we cannot plan if we | 10:47 |
| froud | a. dontknow what users need | 10:47 |
| froud | b. have no spec to follow | 10:47 |
| froud | c. have no objectives to bind our focus | 10:47 |
| jsg | b can be tough | 10:48 |
| froud | I know that mpt thinks the analysis will be no good, does anyone else agree on this point | 10:48 |
| Burgundavia | mpt analysis is useful as long it is: short, sweet and too the poing | 10:49 |
| Burgundavia | the point, even | 10:49 |
| mpt | It's quite easy to do analysis, it's just very time-consuming | 10:49 |
| mpt | First, put some duct tape over your mouth | 10:49 |
| mpt | second, watch someone use Ubuntu | 10:49 |
| mpt | Repeat those two steps, as many times as you can | 10:49 |
| Burgundavia | having watched people use windows, it is painful | 10:49 |
| froud | mpt: we dont have a way to watch enough users | 10:49 |
| mpt | froud: exactly | 10:49 |
| jeffsch | i don't think we can get good info from users, and we will end up just designing for people new to linux but not new to computers | 10:50 |
| mpt | froud: And any other way of doing it will be grossly inaccurate | 10:50 |
| Burgundavia | yes we, mandatory spyng apps!! | 10:50 |
| froud | so we know the problem now we need a solution | 10:50 |
| jeffsch | after 4 months | 10:50 |
| mpt | http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20010805.html | 10:50 |
| froud | mpt: I dont think perfect is immediate | 10:50 |
| froud | mpt: but something is better tan nothing | 10:50 |
| mpt | http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:Gu3DlVK73xcJ:www.useit.com/alertbox/20010805.html+don%27t+listen+to+users&hl=en&lr=&client=firefox&strip=1 | 10:50 |
| jsg | why not consult our forums? we usually get common questions and stuff | 10:51 |
| froud | I can listen to users I cant watch what they do, that is 50% | 10:52 |
| froud | better than 0% | 10:52 |
| Burgundavia | the forums have some pretty common questions that we could boil down in about a day to a couple of common things | 10:52 |
| froud | mpt: that is not finding a solution, we need to be creative on this | 10:52 |
| daven | a lot of the stuff is already in the wiki, as far as i can see | 10:52 |
| daven | a lot of the common questions | 10:53 |
| froud | daven: yes | 10:53 |
| mpt | froud: I already suggested a solution: guess. I'm writing up my guess on the wiki now. | 10:53 |
| Burgundavia | the most common problem is that of not finding the info they need, and not having a common place to send people | 10:53 |
| daven | but users aren't finding it - either they're not looking or it's not accessible enough | 10:53 |
| froud | not exactly for our purpose here but see this matix | 10:54 |
| froud | http://linuxvm.org/penguinvm/presentations/LinuxUserProfile.html | 10:54 |
| Burgundavia | http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:eqx-zkGesZ4J:www.nngroup.com/events/tutorials/camp.html+&hl=en&client=firefox | 10:54 |
| Burgundavia | hmm, big surprise, 3 women out of 4 instructors | 10:54 |
| froud | are people behind a study or not? | 10:55 |
| froud | do you want 0% or 50% | 10:55 |
| mdke | without having read the whole discussion... | 10:56 |
| mdke | i support consulting users, but I think also we should use common sense to figure out what is required | 10:56 |
| froud | mdke: hello dude | 10:56 |
| === jgotangco [DaWorm@info4-72.info.com.ph] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| mdke | yo | 10:56 |
| jeffsch | i feel a study will take a long time and not accomplish much | 10:56 |
| mpt | https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LocalHelpOutline | 10:56 |
| mpt | There you go | 10:56 |
| jeffsch | it will take a month just to agree on how to conduct the study | 10:56 |
| froud | I have templates and plans that I use for my projects | 10:57 |
| mdke | yes i tend to agree with jeffsch that the time put in might not weigh up with the benefits gained, but I think it is important to take users needs into account :/ | 10:57 |
| mpt | Ok, I have to get out of here | 10:57 |
| froud | mpt file that under he Doceam | 10:58 |
| froud | Docteam | 10:58 |
| froud | mpt thanks | 10:58 |
| mpt | ok, tomorrow if I have time | 10:58 |
| froud | sure | 10:58 |
| froud | come to the meeting | 10:58 |
| froud | jeffsch: it takes abot 10% of project time | 10:59 |
| mdke | ok i'm out, see you guys tomorrow | 11:00 |
| froud | Ok dudes think on what we has said here. It has been productive. I now have a meeting and must leave you for awhile. Thoughts and feeling to th elist | 11:00 |
| froud | if you feel I am to pushing on this, say so | 11:00 |
| jgotangco | ok sounds good im going to the barber | 11:00 |
| === froud is now known as froud-away | ||
| jeffsch | i should go too. bed time. | 11:01 |
| === jeffsch is away: I'll be back | ||
| Burgundavia | 95% of users questions could be solved by googling | 11:15 |
| daven | burgundavia: i'm not that amazing at troubleshooting - reasonably new to linux. i'm just sat there searching the wiki and google, and replying... | 11:16 |
| Burgundavia | indeed | 11:16 |
| Burgundavia | I can see why certain channels get reps though | 11:17 |
| daven | i don't think people always understand that there isn't anyone on there who knows about *everything* | 11:17 |
| Burgundavia | generally, you will find somebody who knows something | 11:17 |
| Burgundavia | and the 90/10 rules helps you | 11:17 |
| daven | what, 90% of questions on 10% of topics, or something? | 11:27 |
| daven | yes - it does seem a pretty good bet | 11:28 |
| daven | i'm waiting for a quiet moment for my question ;) | 11:28 |
| === froud-away [~froud@ndn-165-155-230.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| Burgundavia | what is yours? | 11:28 |
| Burgundavia | goog^H^H^HI might be able to help you | 11:29 |
| daven | lol | 11:29 |
| daven | i'll ask in the main room - might as well give others the benefit... | 11:29 |
| === abelli [debian-tor@1ce9947d00a52c88.node.tor] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| abelli | halo | 11:54 |
| Burgundavia | salut | 11:56 |
| === daven_ [~davesheep@83.148.133.161.adsl.griffin.net.uk] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| === mpt [mpt@210-54-226-181.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| === jsgotangco [DaWorm@dialup-222-126-72-92.infocom.ph] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| mpt | Ah, the joys of Win98 | 12:44 |
| jsgotangco | wow | 12:44 |
| Burgundavia | mpt, when have you had to suffer that? | 12:45 |
| jsgotangco | one reason i keep my windows here is because i play a couple of games | 12:45 |
| mpt | Burgundavia: right now :-) | 12:45 |
| Burgundavia | mpt, why, in gods are name, are you doing that? | 12:46 |
| mpt | Burgundavia: Because I can't dial up on my laptop | 12:46 |
| Burgundavia | mpt, oh fun | 12:46 |
| jsgotangco | mpt same here | 12:48 |
| Burgundavia | the joys of living in a big city in one of the most connected countries on the planet | 12:48 |
| Burgundavia | last time I saw dialup was about 1 year ago, when I wasn;t in a big city | 12:49 |
| daven | when i went on holiday i had to use GPRS - i'm still waiting for the bill :-s | 12:49 |
| jsgotangco | dsl is still expensive in my place but its metered so i still use pre-paid dial up sometimes | 12:50 |
| daven | hmm... how do they meter the dsl? | 12:50 |
| jsgotangco | you pay per MB excess of the allocation they give you | 12:51 |
| jsgotangco | its crap imo | 12:51 |
| daven | right - what's the allocation? | 12:51 |
| daven | i'm thinking about moving to a pay as you go broadband. | 12:52 |
| === jsg [DaWorm@info12-25.info.com.ph] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| jsg | gyaahh | 12:53 |
| daven | for half the price 512Kbps unlimited, I could have 1Mbps with 1GB included. the price would increase up to 6GB, at which point the cost would cap at the same as my current 512Kbps | 12:53 |
| mpt | Sunday 1200 UTC | 12:56 |
| mpt | hmm, what's that | 12:56 |
| mpt | That's midnight on Monday morning, woohoo | 12:56 |
| jsg | hehe | 12:56 |
| Burgundavia | 4am here | 12:56 |
| abelli | where can i find little and explicative description of boot up services? | 12:56 |
| abelli | i need them for something like an Ubuntu Boot Manager | 12:57 |
| jsg | 1200 UTC is a nice 8PM in my side | 12:57 |
| Burgundavia | abelli, Ubuntu boot manager? | 12:57 |
| abelli | (not mine, a friend of mine did it, and i think he did a nice thing) ... | 12:57 |
| Burgundavia | abelli, doesn't gnome already have something like this? | 12:57 |
| abelli | Burgundavia: maybe for sessions | 12:57 |
| abelli | not services ... afaik. | 12:58 |
| Burgundavia | abelli, ah, there is a grub editor, that is what I was thinking about | 12:58 |
| abelli | ahh oik | 12:58 |
| abelli | Burgundavia: any idea? | 12:58 |
| Burgundavia | abelli, hmm, scripts in rc.d? | 12:58 |
| abelli | yes, i need something that explain what the services that those script bring up&&down are. | 12:59 |
| Burgundavia | abelli, should be pretty easy. Which do you have a question about? | 12:59 |
| abelli | everyone, isnt there something already done? | 01:00 |
| abelli | well i think i can write them myself, but i was looking for something already done ... | 01:00 |
| capsula | Burgundavia: any idea? | 01:02 |
| jsg | ok its time to play WOW...brb | 01:02 |
| Burgundavia | abelli, not really | 01:03 |
| abelli | Burgundavia: thank you anyway. | 01:03 |
| abelli | Kinnison: can you tail -15 and help me? | 01:03 |
| Burgundavia | jsgotangco, what does you name mean? | 01:03 |
| jsgotangco | my nick? | 01:03 |
| jsgotangco | that is my name | 01:04 |
| Burgundavia | ok | 01:04 |
| jsgotangco | gotangco is my surname which is my chinese name | 01:04 |
| Burgundavia | ah | 01:04 |
| jsgotangco | i used to have other nicks but since i went to freenode ive just used my name | 01:05 |
| Burgundavia | hmm | 01:05 |
| abelli | jsgotangco: yes | 01:06 |
| jsgotangco | oohh google video upload program | 01:06 |
| Burgundavia | jsgotangco, if it is CC then you can upload to WP as well | 01:07 |
| abelli | jsgotangco: where do you live? | 01:07 |
| jsgotangco | abelli i live in Manila, Philippines | 01:07 |
| jsgotangco | but i was born in Taiwan | 01:08 |
| abelli | taiwan? the home of electronics ahh | 01:08 |
| jsgotangco | yes sir..home of good and bad electronics heh | 01:09 |
| abelli | electronics in general :) | 01:09 |
| abelli | is mainly a sw problem :) | 01:09 |
| mpt | oh, man | 01:09 |
| jsgotangco | true | 01:09 |
| jsgotangco | but you know | 01:09 |
| abelli | mpt: what? | 01:09 |
| === mpt comes across https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=106312 by mistake | ||
| mpt | the memories, the memories | 01:09 |
| jsgotangco | i can buy stuff in taiwan like a cisco router clone | 01:09 |
| jsgotangco | same thing, different price | 01:10 |
| daven | just about to edit the RootSudo page to note that users are asked for THEIR password, not the root one they don't have. any objections? | 01:10 |
| daven | is it ok just to go ahead and modify pages like that? it feels awkward because someone else might be maintaining them! | 01:10 |
| abelli | jsgotangco: i love you | 01:11 |
| jsgotangco | daven if thepage is quite old feel free to edit it | 01:11 |
| jsgotangco | abelli doh save it for someone else | 01:11 |
| daven | edited 5 days ago | 01:11 |
| abelli | daven: no you should do it, i think. | 01:11 |
| daven | i've seen the question a few times on the channel - of course, putting it in the wiki might not help that ;) | 01:11 |
| abelli | jsgotangco: can we have a little exchange? | 01:11 |
| abelli | you come in italy i come in taiwan | 01:11 |
| abelli | daven: it's worth trying. | 01:12 |
| daven | abelli: hehe - you not interested in coming to the uk? ;) | 01:12 |
| jsgotangco | abelli i'd love to go to italy my aunt lives in rome she's a nun | 01:12 |
| abelli | itll be also nice noting that sudo something & does bring sudo in background .. so it won't be executed if the password hasnt been inserted in the last 5 mins. | 01:12 |
| abelli | daven: huh ... ive been there for every summer of my life since 3 yrs ago. | 01:13 |
| daven | abelli: fair enough :) i must admit i've not been to italy yet | 01:13 |
| abelli | jsgotangco: come when you want ... but im a bit North | 01:13 |
| abelli | daven: england where? | 01:13 |
| daven | southampton | 01:13 |
| abelli | if it's near Staines ... ahhh | 01:13 |
| daven | lol - not a million miles from staines | 01:14 |
| === mpt tries to think of a way to avoid repeating "If you've been using" four times | ||
| jsgotangco | the 1st and last time i went to Italy I was 7 years old and went to the vatican | 01:14 |
| abelli | ahh ok, ok i just wanna kiss Ali G | 01:14 |
| daven | abelli: aye - dat is wicked, no? | 01:14 |
| abelli | mpt: mm where and when? | 01:14 |
| abelli | daven: i iz complitely mad for alig and da west side massive. | 01:15 |
| daven | also, i'm going to remove the "If you wish to do blah..." and replace with "To do blah..." | 01:15 |
| daven | just checking that i won't get anyone annoyed | 01:15 |
| mpt | abelli: For a "If you're new to Ubuntu 5.10" section of the help | 01:15 |
| jsgotangco | daven fair enough we can see changes in the wiki anyway *the immediate ones though* | 01:16 |
| mpt | abelli: "If you've been using Ubuntu 5.04", "If you've been using Ubuntu 4.10", "If you've been using Microsoft Windows", "If you've been using Mac OS X" | 01:16 |
| abelli | about microsoft "if you have been wrong till now" | 01:17 |
| abelli | mmm sorry ... pappa time .. read you later | 01:17 |
| abelli | ciao buona vita. | 01:17 |
| mpt | Avoiding the word "using" would be a bonus | 01:17 |
| daven | does "Page Type" default to what it was before? | 01:17 |
| jsgotangco | ciao | 01:17 |
| jsgotangco | just make sure its Moin | 01:18 |
| daven | yes, it is. | 01:18 |
| daven | you could say "Migrating from Ubuntu 5.04"? | 01:18 |
| daven | migrating is a more complicated word, though | 01:18 |
| jsgotangco | whats the complete sentence btw | 01:19 |
| mpt | Those are the complete headings | 01:19 |
| mpt | These are links to be clicked on | 01:19 |
| daven | i think i would go for migrating | 01:20 |
| daven | if that's the kind of thing you mean | 01:20 |
| mpt | in the topic "If you're new to Ubuntu 5.10" | 01:20 |
| mpt | Yes, but for Aunt Tillie, migrating is what birds do | 01:20 |
| daven | hmmm. maybe not so good then. | 01:20 |
| mpt | It's got exactly the right meaning, it's just at the wrong level | 01:20 |
| daven | yes | 01:20 |
| daven | i don't see the problem with saying "If you've been using", really | 01:20 |
| jsgotangco | me either | 01:21 |
| daven | it's better to be consistent | 01:21 |
| jsgotangco | its as simple as you can get imo | 01:21 |
| mpt | yeah | 01:21 |
| daven | or "Moving from" | 01:21 |
| mpt | heh! | 01:21 |
| mpt | I'd just tried "Moving from" | 01:21 |
| mpt | to see how it looked | 01:21 |
| daven | :) | 01:21 |
| mpt | Great minds think alike | 01:21 |
| daven | it's funny how long these things take - i can spend ages thinking about what words to use in a guide ;) | 01:21 |
| jsgotangco | daven its much worse when doing i18n | 01:22 |
| daven | yes, some of the guides i write get sent for translation :-s | 01:22 |
| Burgundavia | that is why using simpler words is better | 01:22 |
| Burgundavia | easy to understand and translate | 01:22 |
| Burgundavia | migrate vs move, etc. | 01:22 |
| mpt | "If you've been using" has the advantage over "Moving from" that it still works even if you're *still* using the other OS | 01:22 |
| daven | yes | 01:23 |
| daven | moving still isn't quite right | 01:23 |
| Burgundavia | "f you have come from" | 01:23 |
| daven | i come from england | 01:23 |
| daven | which section would i read? | 01:23 |
| daven | ;) | 01:23 |
| Burgundavia | used to <-- don't much like that | 01:23 |
| mpt | mmmm | 01:25 |
| === mpt worries about "Accessing the Internet" | ||
| mpt | Some people think e-mail isn't on the Internet | 01:25 |
| mpt | and neither is IM | 01:25 |
| jsgotangco | whats wrong about that | 01:25 |
| === maskie [~maskie@196-30-109-199.uudial.uunet.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| jsgotangco | hmmm | 01:25 |
| daven | it's tricky, picking the right level. | 01:26 |
| Burgundavia | some people think that the internet is that blue icon | 01:26 |
| jsgotangco | FF? | 01:26 |
| daven | how long does the sudo password persist for? | 01:26 |
| Burgundavia | daven, 15minutes by default | 01:26 |
| mpt | jsgotangco: No, the one without any orange in it :-) | 01:26 |
| Burgundavia | daven, before its asks again | 01:26 |
| daven | burgundavia: i'm not sure whether it's worth mentioning | 01:27 |
| Burgundavia | just for the record, gwget is a nice app | 01:27 |
| Burgundavia | daven, it is, in case they wonder why it didn't ask again | 01:27 |
| daven | burgundavia: i'll try and work it in | 01:27 |
| daven | burgundavia: but i didn't understand the bit about "bring sudo", and i couldn't find much in google, so i'll leave that stuff out ;) | 01:27 |
| Burgundavia | http://gnome.org/projects/gwget/download.html <-- can someone else try and download fireget.xpi | 01:27 |
| jsgotangco | mpt would it be more effective if we become more specific, ie, accessing net, using email, using im, etc. | 01:28 |
| Burgundavia | jsgotangco, I would agree with that | 01:28 |
| daven | burgundavia: funny characters | 01:29 |
| daven | burgundavia: i guess it's not sending the headers properly or something | 01:29 |
| Burgundavia | daven, is borked then | 01:29 |
| Burgundavia | daven, dammit, I wants it | 01:29 |
| daven | hehe | 01:29 |
| daven | "You will be prompted for the current user's password. By default, you can use sudo for 15 minutes before you're prompted for the password again." | 01:29 |
| daven | any suggestions before i make my first change | 01:30 |
| mpt | jsgotangco: All except the first are subcategories of "Accessing the Internet" -- I've put them in one category so as to make room for "Changing the desktop picture and other settings" and "Getting more help" on the help front page | 01:30 |
| Burgundavia | By default, you can use sudo stores your password for 15 minutes. After that time, you will be prompted for the password again. | 01:30 |
| Burgundavia | daven, ^ | 01:30 |
| daven | good plan | 01:30 |
| Burgundavia | change the password to your password | 01:31 |
| daven | :) | 01:31 |
| Burgundavia | always put the doc as mentioning the user | 01:32 |
| daven | " | 01:32 |
| daven | You will be prompted for the current user's password. By default, sudo stores your password for 15 minutes before prompting you (for your password?) again." | 01:32 |
| daven | i'm inclined to go for less words i think | 01:32 |
| Burgundavia | You will be prompted for your password | 01:32 |
| Burgundavia | better | 01:32 |
| daven | sounds good | 01:33 |
| daven | You will be prompted for the current user's password. By default, sudo stores your password for 15 minutes before you will be prompted for your password again. | 01:33 |
| Burgundavia | You will be prompted for your password, which will be stored for 15 minutes. After that time, you will need to enter your password again. | 01:33 |
| daven | hehe | 01:33 |
| mpt | Ok, does anyone here actually have permissions to hack the Ubuntu help front page? | 01:33 |
| Burgundavia | mpt, it is in svn | 01:33 |
| mpt | (the one that appears in Yelp, I mean) | 01:33 |
| abelli | what about "if you come from..." | 01:33 |
| daven | burgundavia: i'll go with your version :) | 01:33 |
| Burgundavia | mpt, anybody with commit access can | 01:33 |
| mpt | Burgundavia: I'm not sure that really answers my question | 01:33 |
| mpt | Burgundavia: do you? | 01:34 |
| Burgundavia | mpt, What that means is that I could, until I lost my secret key | 01:34 |
| mpt | aha | 01:34 |
| mpt | as in, your GPG key? | 01:34 |
| === Burgundavia grumbles about reinstalling and stupidity | ||
| mpt | yyyyyyeah, I should back up my key too | 01:34 |
| Burgundavia | luckily, I hadn't had it signed by anyone yet | 01:34 |
| jsgotangco | i can commit but.... | 01:34 |
| Burgundavia | be bold jsgotangco | 01:35 |
| mpt | well, I was just thinking | 01:35 |
| mpt | A simple and silly improvement | 01:35 |
| mpt | would be to change that big heading that says "Help Topics" to "Ubuntu Help" | 01:35 |
| jsgotangco | well i think that's a standard GNOME help thing but can be changed | 01:36 |
| Burgundavia | works for me | 01:36 |
| daven | write - i'm off to the shops. thanks for the help - i really don't want to tread on anyone's toes! :) | 01:37 |
| abelli | daven: big ups | 01:38 |
| abelli | daven: aiiiiiiii | 01:38 |
| daven | abelli: is you da fox? ;) [over and out] | 01:38 |
| abelli | jsgotangco: ok, so will u buy me an ultrasparcII 600 mhz for me ? :) | 01:38 |
| jsgotangco | what can a sparc 600mhz do for you i have no idea how those work anyway | 01:39 |
| abelli | daven: me and me julie is going to make you fil mazzively bad. | 01:39 |
| abelli | jsgotangco: i mean in taiwan :) | 01:39 |
| jsgotangco | well i am going to dinner first bbl | 01:39 |
| jsgotangco | abelli when i go there in august | 01:39 |
| abelli | jsgotangco: buon appetito :) | 01:40 |
| mpt | Does Ubuntu have any fax software installed by default? | 01:47 |
| Burgundavia | sane seems to be able to be a front end to one | 01:48 |
| Burgundavia | so no | 01:48 |
| Burgundavia | though ask on the devel list | 01:48 |
| Burgundavia | and if not, file a bug about it | 01:48 |
| mpt | ISTR a thread on ubuntu-devel about it recently | 01:49 |
| mpt | Like, maybe a week ago | 01:49 |
| Burgundavia | gwget needs a resume button | 01:49 |
| mpt | Silly English putting its verbs before its objects | 01:52 |
| mpt | So much harder to scan links that way | 01:52 |
| Burgundavia | check out efax | 01:53 |
| Burgundavia | most especially the help func | 01:53 |
| mpt | https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LocalHelpOutline updated | 02:01 |
| Burgundavia | mpt, advanced topics? that is a weasel word | 02:03 |
| mpt | I know | 02:04 |
| Burgundavia | what is going to be behind it/ | 02:05 |
| mpt | see the bottom of the page | 02:05 |
| Burgundavia | hmm, how about server setup | 02:05 |
| Burgundavia | those who know about man pages can find them themselves | 02:06 |
| Burgundavia | or info | 02:06 |
| Burgundavia | gnutella needs a better search | 02:06 |
| mpt | They may be able to find them themselves, but that doesn't necessarily mean they don't prefer reading them in a proportional anti-aliased font :-) | 02:07 |
| mpt | arg, it's late and I'm using too many negatives | 02:07 |
| Burgundavia | I read man in a terminal | 02:07 |
| Burgundavia | as I suspect do most | 02:07 |
| Burgundavia | and users should never ever see a man page | 02:07 |
| Burgundavia | I was about to help someone in #debian | 02:08 |
| mpt | msdn.microsoft.com uses Verdana | 02:08 |
| === mpt shrugs | ||
| Burgundavia | and then I though f**k it | 02:08 |
| Burgundavia | Burgundavia is there a quick and easy guide to adding .desktop files to debian packages? | 02:08 |
| Burgundavia | aardvark bah. smelly ubuntu users. | 02:08 |
| Burgundavia | nice response, eh? | 02:08 |
| Burgundavia | and then | 02:08 |
| mpt | heh | 02:08 |
| Burgundavia | _rene_ Burgundavia: man cp? ;) | 02:08 |
| Burgundavia | _rene_ Burgundavia: get the sources, add it, rebuild | 02:09 |
| Burgundavia | and | 02:09 |
| mpt | haha | 02:09 |
| Burgundavia | jethro Burgundavia: I asked mh, not you, but you can read the package maintainer guide | 02:09 |
| Burgundavia | hmm | 02:09 |
| Burgundavia | ahh | 02:09 |
| Burgundavia | this is a change that should be so easy | 02:09 |
| Burgundavia | I know I am missing one little step | 02:09 |
| Burgundavia | but I get that response | 02:09 |
| Burgundavia | no wonder people use Ubuntu | 02:10 |
| Burgundavia | because most of the time, people get there questions answered | 02:10 |
| Burgundavia | and not derided | 02:10 |
| mpt | Jealousy will get them nowhere | 02:10 |
| mpt | Those aren't nearly the only Advanced topics, btw | 02:10 |
| mpt | there should be a "..." there | 02:11 |
| Burgundavia | yes | 02:11 |
| Burgundavia | I agree with the gnome move to get rid of advanced topics | 02:11 |
| mpt | Gnome has Advanced topics? | 02:11 |
| mpt | I didn't know | 02:11 |
| Burgundavia | meaning tabs or options under the label advanced topics | 02:12 |
| mpt | Oh, for sure | 02:12 |
| Burgundavia | hmm | 02:12 |
| Burgundavia | well #debian was a bust | 02:12 |
| mpt | in a GUI, it's often a copout | 02:12 |
| Burgundavia | guess I will try #ubuntu-motu next | 02:12 |
| mpt | I don't think it's a copout here | 02:12 |
| Burgundavia | nah, i think I will get help at #ubuntu-motu | 02:13 |
| mpt | It's the "here be admins and geeks" dept. | 02:13 |
| mpt | anyway, Gaim for Windows has nearly finished downloading and it's my bedtime | 02:13 |
| Burgundavia | alright, cya | 02:13 |
| abelli | mpt: for windows? | 02:13 |
| mpt | night | 02:13 |
| abelli | hmmmmm | 02:13 |
| mpt | Yes, abelli | 02:13 |
| abelli | do you have that virus? | 02:14 |
| mpt | <mpt> Ah, the joys of Win98 | 02:14 |
| mpt | What virus? | 02:14 |
| abelli | im really sorry for you my friend. | 02:14 |
| mpt | Virus writers don't support Win98 any more | 02:14 |
| abelli | ms windows 98 | 02:14 |
| mpt | It's tragic | 02:14 |
| Burgundavia | lol | 02:14 |
| abelli | no no the virus' name is MS Windows 98 | 02:15 |
| mpt | We miss out on all the excitement | 02:15 |
| abelli | and it think its one of the few viruses that you must pay for | 02:15 |
| mpt | So, abelli, my parents are in a very curious situation where they pay for their virus but they get their antivirus definitions for free | 02:15 |
| abelli | mpt: why your parents have that virus? | 02:16 |
| abelli | i lately heard of something called ubuntu ... | 02:16 |
| abelli | dunno really what it is .. but . | 02:16 |
| abelli | i think its a nice thing. | 02:16 |
| mpt | abelli | 02:16 |
| mpt | dude | 02:16 |
| abelli | Burgundavia: heard anything ? | 02:16 |
| Burgundavia | abelli, regarding? | 02:16 |
| mpt | My mother complains if I so much as move an icon from one side of the screen to the other | 02:17 |
| abelli | that new thing called ubuntu. | 02:17 |
| Burgundavia | mpt, I have a father like that | 02:17 |
| Burgundavia | he spent an entire afternoon changing all the settings on an old machine | 02:18 |
| abelli | marthin luther king once said "ppl, dont conform, evolute, change" | 02:18 |
| Burgundavia | when all I had done was change the screen resolution to one size larger | 02:18 |
| mpt | evolute? | 02:18 |
| mpt | criminy | 02:18 |
| abelli | its an itanglish for evolve ... sorry | 02:18 |
| mpt | heh, English is a silly language | 02:19 |
| abelli | nature is quantistic ... IT too. | 02:19 |
| abelli | so we must proceed by steps. | 02:19 |
| === mpt evolutes quantistically? | ||
| abelli | now win98, tomorrow morning ubuntu hoary 5.04 | 02:20 |
| mpt | right, really sleep time | 02:20 |
| mpt | honey | 02:20 |
| abelli | sweet dreams | 02:20 |
| mpt | mark should have called it Ubuntu Honey | 02:20 |
| === abelli [~john@bf658f6fef111d1a.node.tor] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| === claude [~claude@99.236.203.62.cust.bluewin.ch] has left #ubuntu-doc [] | ||
| === froud-away is now known as froud | ||
| === jsgotangco [DaWorm@ipdial-246-202.info.com.ph] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| jsgotangco | froud u there? | 03:42 |
| froud | yes | 03:42 |
| jsgotangco | i am looking at our wiki pages at the moment (all of 'em) | 03:42 |
| jsgotangco | what happened to the old members? | 03:42 |
| Burgundavia | some of them disappeared | 03:43 |
| froud | people come and go | 03:43 |
| froud | some talked lots and did nothing | 03:43 |
| froud | some said nothing and did nothing | 03:44 |
| jsgotangco | lol | 03:44 |
| froud | some made promises and did noting | 03:44 |
| jsgotangco | that bad huh | 03:44 |
| froud | yes | 03:44 |
| === jsgotangco never really looked at Warty documentation | ||
| froud | some just came did on ethng to get their name in the authors list and were never seen again | 03:45 |
| === froud really things we should tighten the author listing policy | ||
| jsgotangco | to be honest about this i really dont find any logical system here | 03:45 |
| froud | true | 03:46 |
| jsgotangco | (just looking at the wiki entries) | 03:46 |
| Burgundavia | froud, unfortunately, we can't due to license requirements | 03:46 |
| Burgundavia | if they edited it, we must list them | 03:46 |
| jsgotangco | the dual license thing? | 03:46 |
| Burgundavia | but we can list them as historical thanks | 03:46 |
| Burgundavia | both licenses require it | 03:47 |
| froud | sure | 03:47 |
| Burgundavia | though it is debatable if minor edits count for copyright and thus for attribution | 03:47 |
| froud | my thinking exactly | 03:47 |
| froud | anyone seen a free open source survey poll app around? | 03:48 |
| jsgotangco | im not so good at writing this kind of stuff, i was more trained into writing ISO compliant docs so I really dont know if i can finish up one thing that conforms as a help page | 03:49 |
| Burgundavia | froud, web-based? | 03:49 |
| froud | Burgundavia: ideally | 03:49 |
| Burgundavia | getting the new suse 9.3 live-dvd | 03:49 |
| Burgundavia | froud, can't be taht hard to do | 03:49 |
| Burgundavia | just forms and an email sending | 03:50 |
| abelli | froud: idealism? | 03:50 |
| froud | can be | 03:51 |
| froud | wonder about this | 03:51 |
| froud | http://prestopoll.sourceforge.net/ | 03:51 |
| jsgotangco | hmm | 03:53 |
| abelli | froud: it's not python . | 03:53 |
| abelli | you're an heretic ... you're under trial by the Inquisizione | 03:54 |
| Burgundavia | icky | 03:54 |
| froud | whaaaaah hhhaaaah ah ha ha ha ah sob sob | 03:54 |
| Burgundavia | php and php5 | 03:54 |
| Burgundavia | http://software.xkopex.com/gnome/gnome3.html | 03:54 |
| Burgundavia | I imagine this will go around the blogs for awhile | 03:54 |
| froud | he he | 03:55 |
| jsgotangco | tiled folders | 03:55 |
| jsgotangco | icckk | 03:55 |
| Burgundavia | http://www.student.livjm.ac.uk/cmsphend/gnome/scoop.html | 03:56 |
| Burgundavia | how about this? | 03:56 |
| Burgundavia | http://software.xkopex.com/nautilus/ | 03:56 |
| Burgundavia | or that | 03:56 |
| Burgundavia | he has some good ideas | 03:58 |
| jsgotangco | i like that drop off zone | 03:59 |
| Burgundavia | the scoop idea? | 03:59 |
| Burgundavia | I like that as well | 03:59 |
| Burgundavia | a sort of meta-side panel | 03:59 |
| jsgotangco | yes scoop does look it might work | 04:00 |
| jsgotangco | but it'll eat real estate space for some low rez users | 04:00 |
| Burgundavia | by the time that is more than vapourware, the average desktop will be 1280x1024 | 04:01 |
| jsgotangco | thats true although ive tried hoary/kubuntu on a new PC with a prescott mobo and shared intel extreme video and it can only do 640x480 as default | 04:02 |
| Burgundavia | horrible | 04:03 |
| Burgundavia | my lcd is native at 1280 | 04:03 |
| jsgotangco | i dont think his nautilus idea will be so hot, it looks intimidating to some | 04:03 |
| Burgundavia | I can't stand anything smaller | 04:03 |
| Burgundavia | like a lot of UI ideas, they are total absolute crack | 04:04 |
| jsgotangco | why is it they are making a big deal on the bitkeeper issue | 04:12 |
| jsgotangco | jeez | 04:12 |
| Burgundavia | the bitkeeper is big | 04:12 |
| Burgundavia | <rant>linus was stupid to use it in the 1st place, and he was stupid to try and support mcvoy over tridge</rant> | 04:13 |
| jsgotangco | he was being practical (i believe) | 04:14 |
| jsgotangco | no make that productive | 04:14 |
| Burgundavia | the issue, is that no FLOSS app got the same amout of development | 04:14 |
| Burgundavia | at least with OSS there would be something to show for it | 04:14 |
| Burgundavia | now he is even worse than before | 04:15 |
| Burgundavia | worse shape | 04:15 |
| jsgotangco | true | 04:15 |
| Burgundavia | I think this whole lesson has been very good for the FLOSS community | 04:15 |
| Burgundavia | it truly shows why never to depend on an non-free piece of software | 04:15 |
| jsgotangco | 'Minority Report' interface created for US military | 04:19 |
| jsgotangco | tee hee | 04:19 |
| jsgotangco | later sleep time | 04:39 |
| jsgotangco | nite | 04:39 |
| Burgundavia | I wrote an mpt style doc for suse 9.3. Now I jsut need a webblog to put it on | 06:47 |
| froud | copy cat | 07:19 |
| Burgundavia | somebodies got to do it | 07:19 |
| Burgundavia | already critiqued linspire 5.0 live | 07:20 |
| froud | So you are becoming a critique these days | 07:20 |
| Burgundavia | hey! | 07:20 |
| froud | somebody has to do it | 07:21 |
| froud | may as well be you | 07:21 |
| Burgundavia | are you saying I do it well and don't produce much else? | 07:21 |
| froud | :-) if the hat fits .. | 07:22 |
| froud | teasing you, you plonker | 07:22 |
| froud | you know I love you | 07:22 |
| Burgundavia | i know | 07:22 |
| froud | ok you have a svn wc | 07:23 |
| Burgundavia | I currently have no commit access | 07:23 |
| === jeffsch is back (gone 08:22:14) | ||
| jeffsch | https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LearningUbuntuOutline | 07:24 |
| froud | by you have a wc | 07:24 |
| froud | hi jeff | 07:24 |
| jeffsch | morning | 07:24 |
| Burgundavia | wc? | 07:24 |
| froud | working copy | 07:24 |
| froud | if you do svn up and see the stuff in teamstuff/ | 07:25 |
| Burgundavia | ok | 07:25 |
| froud | jeffsch: you too mate | 07:25 |
| froud | mdke: ping | 07:25 |
| froud | daven: ping | 07:26 |
| froud | guys svn up and checkout the stuff in teamstuff/ | 07:26 |
| froud | based on my templates I have prepared some of the stuff we discussed earlier today | 07:27 |
| Burgundavia | arghh, no commit access. I am going to commit myself!!! | 07:28 |
| froud | patches dude, patches | 07:28 |
| jeffsch | i like the content spec and info plan | 07:28 |
| froud | there is an order to the docs | 07:29 |
| froud | 1. audience | 07:29 |
| froud | 2. environment | 07:29 |
| froud | 3. ino plan | 07:29 |
| froud | info | 07:29 |
| froud | 4. spec | 07:29 |
| froud | each doc gets a spec | 07:30 |
| froud | info plan covers all | 07:30 |
| froud | data from 1, 2 used to produce 3, 4 | 07:30 |
| Burgundavia | cool | 07:31 |
| froud | sometimes 3 can be done first | 07:31 |
| froud | and reval after 1, 2 | 07:31 |
| froud | So now I need input. | 07:32 |
| Burgundavia | hmm | 07:32 |
| Burgundavia | ok | 07:32 |
| froud | silence will be considered as consent | 07:32 |
| Burgundavia | I will sick it on my parents, ex, and brother | 07:32 |
| Burgundavia | I like the idea | 07:32 |
| froud | good | 07:33 |
| Burgundavia | I think the questions need tweaking | 07:33 |
| jeffsch | in our case, how to get enough responses to audience and enviro surveys to make the data valid? | 07:33 |
| froud | you will find that I dont just talk I actually do | 07:33 |
| Burgundavia | advertise on the ubuntu website | 07:33 |
| froud | email, web forms, or poll | 07:33 |
| froud | jeffsch: you know any good poll apps | 07:34 |
| jeffsch | hmmm... i used to. I had to build a survey app a while ago and did some research into it | 07:34 |
| Burgundavia | http://www.unt.edu/benchmarks/archives/2004/december04/rss.htm | 07:37 |
| Burgundavia | google gives you wonders | 07:37 |
| Burgundavia | qsurvery | 07:38 |
| Burgundavia | even links into zope | 07:38 |
| jeffsch | http://gathering.itm.mh.se/modsurvey/overview.php | 07:38 |
| froud | and where to get a server running zope | 07:38 |
| Burgundavia | froud, we already have one | 07:38 |
| froud | we do | 07:38 |
| Burgundavia | www.ubuntu.com | 07:39 |
| froud | Hmmm, yeah you are right | 07:39 |
| Burgundavia | there is no reason that this couldn't be left up permanently | 07:39 |
| Burgundavia | and just announce it after each release | 07:40 |
| froud | sure | 07:40 |
| froud | now where can I find an interface on that server do do this | 07:40 |
| Burgundavia | need to talk a dev into uploading it | 07:41 |
| froud | Hmmm yeah | 07:43 |
| froud | file format? | 07:46 |
| Burgundavia | for? | 07:46 |
| froud | QSurvey | 07:46 |
| froud | I dont have any multiple shoice questions | 07:47 |
| froud | only text box responses | 07:47 |
| froud | and no forks and pipes | 07:47 |
| Burgundavia | it has textbox | 07:47 |
| froud | yeah but does somebody have to sit there an create each question. Is there a single file format | 07:48 |
| froud | a dtd, xsd | 07:48 |
| jeffsch | Survey v3.0.0 DTD | 07:48 |
| froud | link | 07:48 |
| jeffsch | http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=Survey+v3.0.0+DTD&btnG=Google+Search&meta= | 07:49 |
| jeffsch | that's all i got for now... | 07:49 |
| froud | does it work undr zope? | 07:49 |
| froud | this seems like apache mod | 07:50 |
| froud | Hmmm. | 07:50 |
| froud | that is cool | 07:50 |
| froud | both the zope path and the mod path can work | 07:50 |
| froud | I wonder which is faster? | 07:50 |
| jeffsch | http://vtsurvey.sourceforge.net/ | 07:52 |
| jeffsch | also understand Servey DTD, but is java | 07:52 |
| froud | Survey XML is an XML DTD where is the java | 07:53 |
| froud | oooh java i c nice | 07:54 |
| froud | yummy | 07:54 |
| froud | Oh I can live with this | 07:55 |
| froud | <SURVEY TITLE="TEXT"> | 07:55 |
| froud | <TEXT NAME="te1" CAPTION="Plain text" /> | 07:55 |
| froud | <TEXT NAME="te2" MAXLEN="2" CAPTION="Numerical text" MUSTANSWER="yes" NUMERICAL="yes" MAXVAL="99" MINVAL="0" ILLEGALVAL="-2" /> | 07:55 |
| froud | </SURVEY> | 07:55 |
| froud | we can hack it in XML against the DTD is SVN | 07:56 |
| froud | wehn we are ready then we can bother people | 07:56 |
| froud | easy syntax http://gathering.itm.mh.se/mod_survey/docs/mod_survey_syntax_reference.pdf | 07:57 |
| === froud wget http://gathering.itm.mh.se/modsurvey/download/release/modsurvey-3.2.2.tar.gz | ||
| jeffsch | ok see you guys later. I must go. | 08:14 |
| === jeffsch [~jeffsch@fatwire-201-47.uniserve.ca] has left #ubuntu-doc ["sleepy] | ||
| froud | nice mod survey docs are docbook | 08:16 |
| froud | pity the programmers guide is empty an dthe sysadmin | 08:17 |
| Burgundavia | when where the latest updates of these various things? | 08:17 |
| Burgundavia | qsurvey, it looks like 2 years | 08:18 |
| froud | 3.2.2 (released 2005-01-19). | 08:18 |
| Burgundavia | for mod? | 08:18 |
| froud | mod survey | 08:18 |
| froud | yes | 08:18 |
| froud | apache module | 08:18 |
| Burgundavia | seems more stable and reliable | 08:18 |
| froud | driven from xml file | 08:18 |
| froud | also easy for us to develop on | 08:19 |
| froud | easy deploy | 08:19 |
| froud | just need apache | 08:19 |
| froud | USE="apache2" ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="~x86" emerge mod_survey | 08:19 |
| froud | found a web based editor for it too | 08:37 |
| froud | http://ilse.eveca.de/screenShots.html | 08:37 |
| === abelli [~john@29aa747b20edfc19.node.tor] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| froud | Burgundavia: my surveys are normally completed by me. I ahve modified the ones in svn but I wonder if users will actually take the time to type a para on a question | 08:42 |
| froud | I think we should try use as many mulitiple choice options as possible | 08:42 |
| froud | 'ello abelli | 08:45 |
| abelli | froud: glad to see youre here. | 08:46 |
| froud | Burgundavia: mod survey has a nice dtd | 08:56 |
| Burgundavia | always makes life easy if it fits in with existing sutf | 08:57 |
| froud | yeah I am installing on my local and will test it. It is not all documented, so perhaps I can contribute back in that way | 08:58 |
| froud | Burgundavia: on the subject of polls, which OS are you? | 08:59 |
| froud | http://bbspot.com/News/2003/01/os_quiz.php | 08:59 |
| Burgundavia | depends on state and mood | 08:59 |
| Burgundavia | let me tell you know | 08:59 |
| Burgundavia | now | 08:59 |
| Burgundavia | os/2 warp | 09:02 |
| === matt_ [~matt@81-178-68-48.dsl.pipex.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| froud | Burgundavia: you running Apache 2 on SuSE 9.2 | 09:53 |
| Burgundavia | I have never run suse | 09:58 |
| froud | OK | 09:58 |
| Burgundavia | and only played with apache | 09:58 |
| froud | I just wiped out my mod_status | 09:58 |
| froud | lemme see if I can retrieve it form the rpm | 09:59 |
| froud | ah suse you got alove it | 10:02 |
| === froud [~froud@ndn-165-155-230.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| daven | apparently I'm Amiga OS... | 10:28 |
| Burgundavia | froud, what are you? | 10:29 |
| froud | Debs | 10:29 |
| daven | froud: gah! you rigged your answers ;) | 10:29 |
| daven | froud: how come i ended up as amiga os! | 10:29 |
| daven | i haven't downloaded the information as yet. i'm currently a long way from even understand where to get svn from. i'll have to look into it another day, because i'm off to bed now. however, the "4-step plan" sounds like it would make for clearly defined docs | 10:31 |
| froud | perhaps tomorrow I will help you with svn | 10:32 |
| daven | actually, i expect the answers to most of my questions will be in the "getting started with the documentation" guide :) | 10:32 |
| froud | yep | 10:32 |
| froud | and Sep by Step Guides | 10:33 |
| daven | yup :) i really do need to have a good read. i'm just being careful not to commit myself to this before i know i can, if you see what i mean. i don't like to say i'm going to help with something and then not do it. | 10:33 |
| daven | right. ttfn. | 10:33 |
| froud | sure | 10:34 |
| froud | I am of to bed too. Burgundavia the mod_survey is great. | 10:35 |
| froud | c ya | 10:35 |
| Burgundavia | cool | 10:36 |
| Burgundavia | have to play myself | 10:36 |
| === froud is now known as froud-away | ||
| mdke | what's going down | 10:53 |
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