[01:44] <jsgotangco> morning
[01:44] <mdke> good night :)
[01:45] <jsgotangco> acckk
[01:45] <jsgotangco> froud's email was long icckkk
[01:45] <jsgotangco> but explained clearly
[01:45] <mdke> yeah
[01:46] <jsgotangco> but golly, my edits still didnt show images i guess he's going to change global.ent
[01:50] <jsgotangco> ok ill see you guys later im the one cooking breakfast today
[01:50] <jsgotangco> bbl
[08:35] <froud> African Greetings
[08:36] <Burgundavia> salut
[08:37] <Burgundavia> everybody loves 4am meetings
[08:39] <jeffsch> hey froud
[08:39] <jeffsch> there is a booboo in the i18n solution :(
[08:40] <jeffsch> I did some research today to find out why jsgotangco's excellent updates were not working.
[08:40] <jeffsch> <!ENTITY % language "&EnglishAmerican;"> is not entirely correct.
[08:40] <jeffsch> The '%' makes 'language' a parameter entity.
[08:41] <jeffsch> Parameter entities can only be used in a DTD.
[08:41] <jeffsch> In the document itself you must use general entities such as '&language;'
[08:42] <jeffsch> Therefore, this is how it should be:
[08:42] <jeffsch> <!ENTITY language "&EnglishAmerican;">
[08:42] <jeffsch> <imagedata fileref="../../images/&language;/IconUbuntu.png" format="PNG"/>
[08:43] <jeffsch> I tried it in yelp with 'C' and 'it' languages. It works like that.
[08:44] <jeffsch> I committed a couple of changes. Can you verify that what I did is correct? Then we can update the rest.
[08:44] <froud> jeffsch: hi, just hold lemme test
[08:49] <froud> yes you a re right
[08:49] <froud> it is my fault
[08:49] <froud> I did say use a param ent
[08:49] <jeffsch> bah. just a typo.
[08:49] <froud> no I said use a param ent
[08:50] <froud> I must send an update to that message I sent
[08:53] <jeffsch> froud: on a different topic: in yelp for quickguide, etc, xref's show up as block elements
[08:53] <jeffsch> they are larger fonts, on their own lines, etc
[08:54] <jeffsch> but on yelp with update manager they are correctly used as inline elements, with clickable links
[08:54] <froud> Yes, I noted this as a bug after release
[08:55] <froud> we fixed it at our meeting and then it was forgotten to include it in the releave by the devs
[08:55] <froud> geeze I hate being dependant on yelp
[08:56] <jeffsch> it's what's there
[08:56] <jeffsch> do we have the power to change?
[08:56] <froud> Sure
[08:56] <froud> For now I would like just to use a plain web browser
[08:56] <froud> and research into a new help viewer
[08:57] <jeffsch> must build consensus first though. will take some time.
[08:58] <froud> Sure
[08:58] <froud> did you read the message from JanC
[08:58] <froud> I think a blend of wxWidget's/wxPython's help system + a 'system-wide'
[08:58] <froud> indexing system like Beagle + maybe yelp could become a better
[08:58] <froud> documentation environment...
[08:59] <jeffsch> yes, but I didn't look into it... was busy with entities...
[08:59] <froud> Burgundavia: yeah 4 am is harsh
[08:59] <Burgundavia> I will just stay up
[08:59] <Burgundavia> I am the only person out my way anyway
[08:59] <froud> I will update them in the other docs
[08:59] <froud> What time is it for South Africa
[09:00] <jeffsch> Burgundavia: vancouver's not that far :)
[09:00] <Burgundavia> ok
[09:00] <Burgundavia> I forgot about you
[09:00] <froud> The time is UTC and I only know GMT
[09:00] <jeffsch> utc = gmt,no?
[09:00] <Burgundavia> ahh UTC==GMT?
[09:01] <froud> is it?
[09:01] <froud> so she means 10 pm GMT?
[09:01] <jeffsch> 4am here is 1pm there
[09:01] <froud> on Sunday
[09:01] <Burgundavia> according to WP it doews
[09:02] <jeffsch> 1pm in za
[09:03] <froud> so then UTC is not GMT
[09:03] <froud> confused
[09:03] <froud> I hate the time zones
[09:04] <froud> just use internet time 
[09:04] <froud> used it for 4 years
[09:04] <froud> the same time everywhere
[09:05] <froud> is there an ez web site work this tuff out
[09:05] <Burgundavia> UTC is GMT
[09:05] <jeffsch> UTC is GMT. 1200 UTC = 1200 GMT = 1pm za
[09:05] <jeffsch> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/personal.html
[09:07] <froud> Oh cause we are =2 or something
[09:09] <froud> Burgundavia: 
[09:09] <froud> Sunday, April 17, 2005 at 10:00:00	Sun Noon
[09:09] <froud> Sunday, April 17, 2005 at 11:00:00	Sun 1:00 PM
[09:09] <froud> so 10 is noon
[09:09] <Burgundavia> ok
[09:09] <froud> Hmm thanks for that web site
[09:10] <froud> geeze internet time is so much easier
[09:10] <froud> jeffsch: all updates are now done
[09:10] <froud> jeffsch: thanks for checking that
[09:10] <jeffsch> np
[09:10] <froud> ok I have a question for you guys
[09:11] <froud> and anyone else who is listening
[09:11] <froud> so far we are just going by the seat of our pants when it comes to deining documents
[09:11] <froud> defining
[09:12] <froud> I think it will be a worthwhile excercise for us to ask the users what they want
[09:12] <froud> wiki is perfect for this
[09:13] <froud> I want to get Content Specifications, User Analysis and that stuff
[09:13] <froud> Lets actualy learn who the audience is and what tasks they want to know about
[09:14] <froud> how long using linux and what problems did they have
[09:14] <froud> put a poll up and ask for answers and provide place to give commnet
[09:14] <froud> thoughts?
[09:15] <Burgundavia> sounds good
[09:15] <jeffsch> let's just cut to the chase and design for users new to linux, but not new to computers.
[09:15] <jeffsch> aren't they the target market?
[09:15] <froud> not really
[09:16] <froud> you see we also have admins
[09:16] <froud> and people who have used linux
[09:16] <jeffsch> people new to administering linux? or people new to administering ubuntu?
[09:17] <froud> My normal, formal approach, to writing is 4 steps:
[09:17] <froud> 1. Create goals and objectives for the publication
[09:17] <froud> 2. Analyze the product, audience, and environment
[09:17] <froud> 3. Analyze the tasks the audience wants to perform
[09:18] <froud> 4. Organize the publications and prepare rational
[09:19] <froud> This gives me:
[09:19] <jeffsch> that's pretty much what I learned in school. make a document plan - it has user-task analysis, TOC, etc
[09:19] <froud> a. Purpose of the guide
[09:19] <froud> b. Product Desription
[09:19] <froud> c. Audience profile
[09:20] <froud> d task analysis
[09:20] <froud> from this I can outline to the exact user requirements
[09:20] <mpt> sounds good
[09:20] <froud> jeffsch: yes, obviously it is more complex
[09:20] <froud> mpt: hi, please to meet you
[09:20] <mpt> likewise
[09:20] <froud> mpt: thanks for your feedabck
[09:21] <mpt> arg
[09:21] <froud> I think by putting it open for contributions form the users we can get a better handle on what we should do
[09:21] <mpt> I meant to reply to Mary's message but it got lost in Thunderbird
[09:21] <froud> we have not done this
[09:22] <froud> Maybe people at Canonical can help us short circuit this if they have market and user analysis already done
[09:22] <froud> mpt?
[09:22] <mpt> I doubt that
[09:22] <mpt> but that's not really my area
[09:23] <mpt> You'd be better asking jdub about that, I think
[09:23] <froud> Then I think this excercise will have huge benefit outside the docteam
[09:23] <mpt> other than being the dominant Linux-based OS
[09:23] <froud> mpt: nah I just ask Mark
[09:23] <mpt> that would work too
[09:23] <mpt> though it might be slower :-)
[09:24] <froud> no he is responsive
[09:24] <froud> if it seems important to him
[09:24] <froud> another idea
[09:25] <froud> I am really tired of Yelp
[09:25] <froud> I mean it
[09:25] <mpt> so fork it
[09:25] <froud> Oh yeah and develop it?
[09:25] <froud> no, short circuit me = lazy
[09:25] <Burgundavia> yelp is also gtk
[09:25] <froud> me = focus on docs
[09:25] <mpt> Well, which would be quicker? Adding search to yelp, or writing a new help viewer?
[09:26] <froud> using any browser XHTML/HTML + CSS and jscript
[09:26] <froud> htdig search
[09:26] <jeffsch> is that the only thing wrong with yelp? lack of search?
[09:26] <froud> jeffsch: no
[09:27] <froud> poor custom abilities without editing the source
[09:27] <froud> proprietry tags like ghelp
[09:27] <mpt> custom abilities like what?
[09:27] <mpt> Like <a href="some-magic">Open the Keyboard applet for me</a>
[09:27] <mpt> ?
[09:28] <froud> use an dubuntu custom layer to style the resulting output not only that of yelp
[09:28] <froud> invalid processing instructions like <?yelp:chunk-depth 3?>
[09:29] <froud> lack of support for docbook 4.3 >
[09:29] <froud> lack of support for SVG
[09:29] <froud> thi slist is long
[09:29] <froud> oh an dit is slow on mpt 's lappy
[09:29] <mpt> heh
[09:30] <mpt> and ...
[09:30] <froud> chaps I think like this
[09:30] <froud> you all know how the quick guide looks
[09:30] <mpt> ... 19 seconds!
[09:30] <froud> imagine if you have associated tasks on the right side of the screencapt
[09:31] <froud> a list that is dynamically built by jscript and formatted using css
[09:32] <froud> Ability to do popups
[09:32] <froud> ability to create comments inline to the help system
[09:32] <froud> ability to share comments and send them
[09:32] <mpt> I'm trying to think of use cases for dynamically built lists and popups
[09:32] <froud> mpt: easy
[09:33] <mpt> Apple Help uses HTML nowadays, but the result is that every non-Apple help file looks different, and that's bad
[09:33] <froud> This is x app. It is use to do Y.
[09:33] <mpt> e.g. different font sizes for no reason
[09:33] <froud> alongside all the tasks assocaited with the app
[09:33] <froud> our stylesheets control that
[09:34] <froud> Apple should use Docbook
[09:34] <mpt> wait, wait
[09:34] <mpt> So Apple should switch from HTML to Docbook, and Ubuntu should switch from Docbook to HTML?
[09:34] <mpt> :-)
[09:34] <froud> mpt: no
[09:34] <froud> we use docbook as a semantic format for storage
[09:34] <froud> it is presnetation layer neutral
[09:35] <froud> we transform from xml to html
[09:35] <froud> or pdf or ps or rtf or what ever
[09:35] <froud> yelp does this under the covers
[09:35] <froud> that is one reason why it takes so long to load
[09:36] <mpt> Why does it do any transformations at all?
[09:36] <froud> yelp takes raw xml and transfroms it to html for viewing
[09:37] <froud> xml is not a presentation format
[09:37] <mpt> XML+CSS is presentable
[09:37] <mpt> ah, but it's not linkable
[09:37] <froud> it seperates the concrns of content and presentation
[09:37] <froud> not so easy
[09:37] <mpt> XML+XSL even more so
[09:38] <froud> mpt: let me explain
[09:38] <froud> The Docbook XSLs are powerful
[09:38] <froud> we can transform to XHTML, HTML, PDF, HTML help, JAVAHelp, etc
[09:39] <froud> it has support for gen texts in i18n
[09:39] <froud> the work is done
[09:39] <mpt> ok
[09:39] <froud> we put Docbook XML and XSL into an xslt processor
[09:39] <froud> that gives us a presentation format
[09:40] <froud> the format depends on the XSL used
[09:40] <froud> now we dont hack the docbook package sources
[09:40] <froud> we create a custom layer
[09:40] <froud> this allows us to change the standard formating provided by the docbook packages
[09:41] <froud> when the docbook packages are upgraded we inherit all the updaes
[09:41] <froud> and all we do is maintain our custom later
[09:41] <mpt> So can you get rid of those previous and next links at the bottom of each page, for example?
[09:41] <froud> yes
[09:41] <mpt> hooray
[09:41] <froud> but not in yelp
[09:42] <mpt> then what?
[09:42] <froud> because we would have to hack the yelp xsl and compile it again
[09:42] <froud> so I say screw yelp
[09:42] <froud> it is to inlexible and give overhead
[09:42] <froud> go to any browser 
[09:42] <froud> we have ful control
[09:43] <Burgundavia> browser isn't much faster to load though
[09:43] <mpt> ok, but you're still going to need to make a help viewer, froud
[09:43] <froud> in our custom layer
[09:43] <froud> no
[09:43] <froud> for now we do HTML Help
[09:43] <froud> and CSS it and manipulate with jscript
[09:43] <froud> this gives us a toc and pages
[09:44] <froud> we have full control of the toc
[09:44] <froud> a search facility is also easy
[09:44] <mpt> actual Web browser chrome, complete with bookmarks bars and "Send Link..." and cookie prefs and its own help menu that's mostly about browsing, just would not work as a help UI
[09:45] <froud> mpt: atually most people spend there time on the web looking for help
[09:45] <froud> thier
[09:46] <mpt> I thought most people spent their time on the web bidding on auctions and looking at porn
[09:46] <Burgundavia> mpt, that is most office workers
[09:46] <froud> amongst other things
[09:46] <froud> mpt: I am not saying using a full web browser is the ideal answer
[09:47] <froud> I amsaying that it is workable immediately
[09:47] <froud> with a level of control to us
[09:47] <froud> oneday, maybe somebody will build a good help viewer
[09:47] <froud> but frankly I think the days of help viewers are numbered in single digits
[09:48] <mpt> I'm still waiting for a good one
[09:48] <mpt> but even Windows ME's one was better than a Web browser
[09:49] <froud> mpt: by going this route we have another advantage
[09:49] <froud> the help system can be loaded from a web server or local disk
[09:49] <mpt> That involves fun security considerations
[09:50] <froud> like
[09:50] <mpt> like, the various security vulnerabilities in the Windows help viewer that, over the years, have allowed attackers to run arbitrary programs
[09:50] <froud> I dont se the point
[09:50] <mpt> because it uses the IE HTML rendering engine
[09:51] <mpt> and can view remote stuff
[09:51] <froud> and we will use any browsers rendering engine
[09:51] <froud> I still dont see why this is a problem
[09:51] <mpt> ok, so
[09:52] <mpt> how do you get the search field into the UI?
[09:52] <froud> loading a page from a web site is something mils of user do every day
[09:52] <froud> Ah ha, XForms
[09:52] <froud> and andthing like cgi
[09:52] <froud> even python
[09:52] <froud> there are numbers of tools for that
[09:53] <froud> Goodness we can even integrate google
[09:53] <froud> or lucerne
[09:53] <froud> the power is endless
[09:54] <froud> for admins help can be installe don the server only
[09:54] <froud> for home users on thier local
[09:55] <mpt> So, no help topic on "Troubleshooting server connections" then? :-)
[09:55] <froud> topics need to be analyzed
[09:55] <froud> and can be personalized
[09:56] <mpt> Do any other OSes personalize the topics in their help system?
[09:56] <jsgotangco> froud: i screwed up?
[09:56] <mpt> That sounds like running before walking to me
[09:56] <froud> jsgotangco: no I did
[09:56] <froud> mpt: vision dude
[09:56] <jsgotangco> it should have been & then
[09:56] <froud> just caus ethey dont have does not mean it is not wanted
[09:57] <froud> jsgotangco: yes, my mistake , sorry
[09:57] <froud> thanks to jeffsch for spotting it
[09:57] <jeffsch> froud: you forgot <!ENTITY language "&EnglishAmerican;">
[09:57] <froud> mpt: you complain about it but fail to look beyond for a better solution
[09:58] <jeffsch> I am changing them now
[09:58] <froud> jeffsch: why does that need changing?
[09:58] <froud> jeffsch: you mean in the i18n docs
[09:58] <mpt> froud: I'm not complaining, I'm wondering why you don't just take the first step first
[09:58] <jeffsch> froud: yes
[09:58] <froud> what is that first step, where does it lead
[09:58] <mpt> froud: which is to start with the things most people will be wanting to know, most of the time
[09:58] <froud> jeffsch: yes, thanks
[09:59] <mpt> froud: then if you get really smart later, you can personalize it
[09:59] <froud> lets seperate things here
[09:59] <froud> the help system app and the content it displays
[10:00] <froud> for content I am proposing we do an analysis that includes user inpt
[10:01] <froud> for the help system I am prposing moving away from yelp so that we can excert control
[10:01] <jsgotangco> i'd go for the migrant's guide (like playing stuff, office work, etc.)
[10:01] <mpt> froud, unless you're going to collect that user input by sneaking up behind people using Ubuntu and watching them, I think you'd be better just to guess
[10:01] <froud> mpt: yelp uses scrollkeeper to decide what goes in the first page
[10:01] <mpt> what's scrollkeeper?
[10:01] <froud> mpt: I dont think so
[10:02] <mpt> froud: Because any other way you collect it -- surveys, wiki pages, mailing lists, whatever -- acts as an enormous barrier to entry. The kind of people who most need help are the kind of people who will never edit a wiki or post on a mailing list.
[10:02] <mpt> And in surveys in general, people will lie so as not to sound dumb.
[10:03] <froud> mpt: as I said, this is why one has to understand the doc systems. I hear your grievances, I agree with most, but to get a solution I must think outside the box
[10:03] <jsgotangco> are you saying we make our guide like a dummies book?
[10:03] <mpt> So, my suggestion is: guess. :-)
[10:03] <froud> I want and educated guess
[10:04] <mpt> ok, I'll re-reply to Mary's message now
[10:04] <froud> mpt: Uhmm, now you leave
[10:04] <mpt> eh?
[10:04] <froud> mpt: you going
[10:04] <mpt> It's 8pm, the cafe closes in an hour or less
[10:05] <mpt> I'll hang around here while I can, though
[10:05] <froud> I c you are in an Internet Cafe
[10:05] <mpt> Yes, no DSL at home yet
[10:05] <mpt> and Ubuntu doesn't understand the laptop's modem
[10:05] <froud> Oh OK
[10:05] <froud> yes heard that from a number of users
[10:06] <froud> well team, what do you guys think of this conversation and the ideas we have bashed
[10:06] <jsgotangco> ive tuned in late
[10:06] <jsgotangco> i still want a dummy guide
[10:06] <froud> js read the logs
[10:06] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, dummy guide ala the faqguide is coming
[10:07] <froud> dummy guides are good but not like by all
[10:07] <Burgundavia> dummy guides sell like hotcakes
[10:07] <froud> I dontthink we can say what we want. We should ask the users to gleen what they want, then decide
[10:07] <jsgotangco> i would think more of the migrating users
[10:07] <Burgundavia> they must have something going for them
[10:07] <jeffsch> i still like "let's just cut to the chase and design for users new to linux, but not new to computers."
[10:08] <jsgotangco> jeffsch right on target
[10:08] <froud> Burgundavia: yes they do cause they address a need in one audience
[10:08] <jsgotangco> people who install ubuntu know how to play around with their computers
[10:08] <Burgundavia> froud, a very large audience, if the sales are to be believed
[10:08] <froud> but for my user profile I want O'Reilly or SAMS
[10:08] <Burgundavia> froud, so do I, but I don't need docs written for me
[10:08] <Burgundavia> I can search the internet for that
[10:08] <froud> The major market segment is huge
[10:09] <froud> Burgundavia: no we use man pages
[10:09] <froud> :-)
[10:09] <Burgundavia> ugh, man pages
[10:09] <Burgundavia> what a waste of time mostly
[10:09] <jsgotangco> ickk
[10:09] <froud> Oh no dude love man pages
[10:09] <froud> ssh in to remote and you have help
[10:10] <jeffsch> i use them all the time. i always forget command line stuff.
[10:10] <froud> I am speaking about no GUI here
[10:10] <froud> I dont go to yelp for help on commnad stuff
[10:10] <jsgotangco> true
[10:10] <froud> I just man foo
[10:10] <jsgotangco> dont we all
[10:10] <Burgundavia> I like GUIs and the power they give
[10:10] <Burgundavia> in fact, I like GUIs so much that I hate ugly ones
[10:11] <mpt> I wish more man pages had a couple of good examples at the beginning
[10:11] <froud> Burgundavia: agree 1000%
[10:11] <Burgundavia> ala xmms and mplayer and other gtk1 crap
[10:11] <mpt> then I wouldn't need to read the rest of them :-)
[10:11] <Burgundavia> mpt, absolutely. Show me, in examples, the 4 most commons ways that program is used
[10:11] <froud> mpt: man pages assume a level of proficeincy that is above our user
[10:12] <mpt> naturally
[10:13] <froud> Burgundavia: if we use the HTML/CSS/JSCRIPT route I am proposing we can break from the top down vertical approach common in current help systems
[10:13] <Burgundavia> froud, top down?
[10:13] <froud> yes see a gnome manual
[10:14] <froud> each topic is vertical
[10:14] <froud> it would be nice to have side bars and tool tips
[10:14] <froud> Some links dont have to be clicked
[10:15] <froud> Just hold your mouse pointer over it
[10:15] <jsgotangco> thats not possible with yelp but with a browser based system
[10:15] <froud> and you see the text
[10:15] <mpt> froud, the thing about help is
[10:15] <froud> jsgotangco: that is what I am saying
[10:15] <mpt> and help developers on every OS get this wrong
[10:15] <mpt> the thing about help is that it needs to be *alongside* what I'm doing
[10:15] <mpt> so it needs to be, maybe, 200px wide.
[10:15] <froud> mpt: no problem
[10:15] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[10:15] <mpt> otherwise I keep having to flip between the help and the program I'm trying to use
[10:15] <mpt> forward and back, forward and back
[10:15] <froud> most programming envs have browser controls
[10:16] <mpt> and it's too much bother
[10:16] <jsgotangco> alongside, is that similiar to a help system in MS Office
[10:16] <Burgundavia> and every time I flip I have to reorient myself
[10:16] <mpt> Yes, Works and Office both solve that problem, in slightly different ways
[10:16] <jeffsch> mpt: acrobat 7 does that. 200 px wide on right hand side of screen
[10:16] <Burgundavia> so we need support for dynamic shrinking
[10:16] <froud> using the method I am proposing devs can embed a browser control at any position in the workspace
[10:16] <mpt> A pity that the actual OS help system doesn't :-)
[10:16] <froud> jeffsch: yes and we can use that
[10:17] <Burgundavia> jeffsch, adobe reader 7is evil
[10:17] <jeffsch> i not talking about reader.
[10:17] <froud> Burgundavia: dynamic shinking is can be done
[10:17] <froud> but images
[10:17] <jsgotangco> ok if its 200 px wide, it shouldn't be as high as the actual application
[10:17] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, why not?
[10:17] <jeffsch> acrobat 7 for creating and manipulating pdf. reviewing docs.
[10:18] <Burgundavia> jeffsch, the actual thing, not the reader, ok
[10:18] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia you eat up real estate space on the application
[10:18] <froud> dudes the technology is not important
[10:18] <Burgundavia> jeffsch, I really wish they would rebrand the reader to avoid this kind of confusion
[10:18] <froud> the concept is
[10:18] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, but the app has just shrunk 200, so that top corner is going to be wasted
[10:18] <jsgotangco> froud maybe something similar to Opera's small screen rendering
[10:19] <froud> jsgotangco: yes there is another idea
[10:19] <jeffsch> Burgundavia: they more interested in the money than the clarity, i suspect.
[10:19] <froud> mypointis that via html route we can do this stuff easily
[10:19] <Burgundavia> jeffsch, yes
[10:19] <Burgundavia> jeffsch, reader 7 has a semi-spyware in it
[10:20] <mpt> oh man
[10:20] <mpt> this is depressing
[10:20] <jsgotangco> what?
[10:20] <froud> Ok, I see you guys are not into discussing solutions I am off t go be productive
[10:20] <jsgotangco> no
[10:21] <jsgotangco> im all for discussion
[10:21] <jsgotangco> i believe an html based system is easier and can be changed system wide at the least possible time
[10:21] <froud> jsgotangco: yes, but we need the group here
[10:21] <froud> trying to keep on topic in IRC is a nighmare
[10:22] <froud> I am focused on concepts that will work
[10:22] <froud> ideas from the group are important
[10:22] <froud> not what technology to use
[10:23] <froud> or that x app is evil
[10:23] <froud> hello daven
[10:23] <jsgotangco> ok resizing the text is quite easy but we'll have a problem in the images/screenshots
[10:23] <daven> hiya
[10:23] <jsgotangco> but Opera dynamically resizes stuff with SSR
[10:23] <froud> jsgotangco: perhaps we can just generate links to images
[10:23] <mpt> jsgotangco: If I already have a program open, screenshots are not terribly interesting.
[10:23] <jsgotangco> maybe somethine like that
[10:23] <froud> jsgotangco: yes that is Opera
[10:23] <froud> we need any bowser
[10:24] <mpt> jsgotangco: If you have pictures at all, just make them pictures of what button to click.
[10:24] <Burgundavia> then we don't need the full power of ff
[10:24] <froud> we cannot mandate what user agent our docs will run under
[10:24] <jsgotangco> zoom into the actual stuff?
[10:24] <Burgundavia> we need mozembed
[10:24] <froud> Burgundavia: exaplain
[10:24] <Burgundavia> if we are only talked at a minimum 600 tall by 200 wide, then the ui of ff is too much
[10:24] <froud> ff?
[10:25] <froud> firefox
[10:25] <Burgundavia> mozembed is the gecko rendering engine
[10:25] <froud> ok
[10:25] <froud> why is that a problem
[10:25] <Burgundavia> can be really easily done with python
[10:25] <froud> how
[10:26] <Burgundavia> because the ff ui is already going to eat up 25% of that space, and isn't designed to be run at 200px wide
[10:26] <jeffsch> keep in mind 200px is just a number tossed out there
[10:26] <jeffsch> it could be more
[10:27] <Burgundavia> 200px is already a quarter of someones 800X600 screen
[10:27] <froud> OK OK, lets clear something first
[10:27] <froud> at present most apps dont support what we are saying here
[10:27] <froud> what is importnat is that our format enables them too
[10:27] <Burgundavia> and yelp already uses gecko
[10:27] <mpt> I never said they had to resize themselves automatically
[10:27] <Burgundavia> I am talking a seperate window
[10:27] <mpt> I just want to be *able* to have them side by side
[10:27] <Burgundavia> not part of the app
[10:28] <mpt> the windows, side by side
[10:28] <froud> mpt: can be in windows or in embeded expand/collapse control
[10:29] <jeffsch> yes, the windows, side by side
[10:29] <froud> so long as the window or control reads html/XHML, CSS and supports jscript were fine
[10:29] <froud> I thnk that devs will decide on how they will impliment it
[10:29] <jeffsch> design the help system, then determine the technology to use
[10:29] <froud> what we need to endure is that they can read and render in a standard way
[10:29] <froud> jeffsch: yes
[10:30] <froud> but keep in mind
[10:30] <froud> we must make it flexible and easy for apps and the devs to use
[10:30] <froud> the simplest solution IMHO is the X/HTML route
[10:31] <froud> our prime focus is not the application layer and we have little control over it
[10:31] <froud> what we do have control over is the structure and meat of our content and the format in which we make it accessible
[10:32] <froud> we can however suggest various methods for viewing and make input for usability recomendations
[10:33] <froud> OK lets see if we have the skill set needed
[10:33] <froud> I take it we all are comfortable with docbook
[10:33] <froud> and the method we use to transform
[10:33] <froud> who codes html here
[10:34] <froud> who knows css
[10:34] <froud> who knows jscript
[10:34] <froud> who understands and can impliment an idexing and search facility
[10:34] <jsgotangco> i know html and css
[10:35] <jsgotangco> ive done some xml but not docbook but im learning
[10:35] <froud> cool any other skills
[10:35] <froud> any python boys here
[10:35] <jeffsch> I know html, css, jscript, but am far from expert.
[10:35] <froud> jeffsch: great
[10:35] <jeffsch> I fooled around with python last year. will take some time to get back into it.
[10:35] <froud> but you can muddle through
[10:36] <froud> enough to finally get waht you want?
[10:36] <jeffsch> oh yea. It takes a long time though... lots of poring over python docs
[10:37] <froud> ok :-)
[10:37] <froud> so with the current speakers we do have the skill set for what we want to do
[10:37] <froud> I will focus on the XML and XSLT
[10:38] <jeffsch> and the doc content? who will focus on that?
[10:38] <froud> :-) all of us
[10:39] <froud> but I would like to do the needs analysis before hacking the content this time
[10:39] <froud> chaps when I joined this project it was only really enrico and I who were serious
[10:39] <froud> 2 people
[10:40] <froud> we had people on the list and people in the channel, but they did not do much
[10:40] <froud> since then we have quadrupled in size
[10:40] <froud> this is both good and bad
[10:40] <froud> good we can do more cover more ground
[10:40] <froud> bad, we need more organization
[10:41] <froud> roles and responsabilities now comes tomind
[10:41] <froud> but I am afraid to say it
[10:41] <froud> I know that I am commit here
[10:41] <froud> I cant speak for everyone
[10:41] <froud> some of us may come and go
[10:41] <froud> that's open source
[10:42] <froud> so I hope people will find what it is they want to do
[10:42] <froud> and go for it
[10:42] <jsg> sorry about that
[10:42] <froud> everyon eon eof us is toatll empoered to do what ever we wish
[10:42] <jeffsch> so each doc needs its own plan, its own design, a skeleton. Then people can come and go. just fill in the skeleton
[10:42] <jsg> let me check the log first
[10:43] <froud> jeffsch: yes that is the idea
[10:43] <froud> hence I want specs etc
[10:43] <jeffsch> and a style guide
[10:43] <froud> jeffsch: that is a big task
[10:44] <froud> we need to take styleguides from upstream
[10:44] <froud> they are guides not rules
[10:44] <jsg> who took html and css i can do that
[10:44] <froud> jsg: more hands makes light work
[10:44] <jeffsch> big task, but needed with lots of contributors.http://developer.gnome.org/documents/style-guide/ 
[10:45] <froud> jeffsch: the specs etc are also good for new people joining mid stream
[10:45] <jsg> souds good to me
[10:45] <froud> it defines for them points where we are and wer ethey can fit
[10:45] <froud> it saves us having the problem I had with Burgundavia 
[10:46] <Burgundavia> what issue? There was no issue
[10:46] <jsg> i've messed with ruby not python :(
[10:46] <froud> we are now at the beginning of a release cycle, if we spend 10% of our time planning it will save us much headache
[10:47] <froud> we cannot plan if we
[10:47] <froud> a. dontknow what users need
[10:47] <froud> b. have no spec to follow
[10:47] <froud> c. have no objectives to bind our focus
[10:48] <jsg> b can be tough
[10:48] <froud> I know that mpt thinks the analysis will be no good, does anyone else agree on this point
[10:49] <Burgundavia> mpt analysis is useful as long it is: short, sweet and too the poing
[10:49] <Burgundavia> the point, even
[10:49] <mpt> It's quite easy to do analysis, it's just very time-consuming
[10:49] <mpt> First, put some duct tape over your mouth
[10:49] <mpt> second, watch someone use Ubuntu
[10:49] <mpt> Repeat those two steps, as many times as you can
[10:49] <Burgundavia> having watched people use windows, it is painful
[10:49] <froud> mpt: we dont have a way to watch enough users
[10:49] <mpt> froud: exactly
[10:50] <jeffsch> i don't think we can get good info from users, and we will end up just designing for people new to linux but not new to computers
[10:50] <mpt> froud: And any other way of doing it will be grossly inaccurate
[10:50] <Burgundavia> yes we, mandatory spyng apps!!
[10:50] <froud> so we know the problem now we need a solution
[10:50] <jeffsch> after 4 months
[10:50] <mpt> http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20010805.html
[10:50] <froud> mpt: I dont think perfect is immediate
[10:50] <froud> mpt: but something is better tan nothing
[10:50] <mpt> http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:Gu3DlVK73xcJ:www.useit.com/alertbox/20010805.html+don%27t+listen+to+users&hl=en&lr=&client=firefox&strip=1
[10:51] <jsg> why not consult our forums? we usually get common questions and stuff
[10:52] <froud> I can listen to users I cant watch what they do, that is 50%
[10:52] <froud> better than 0%
[10:52] <Burgundavia> the forums have some pretty common questions that we could boil down in about a day to a couple of common things
[10:52] <froud> mpt: that is not finding a solution, we need to be creative on this
[10:52] <daven> a lot of the stuff is already in the wiki, as far as i can see
[10:53] <daven> a lot of the common questions
[10:53] <froud> daven: yes
[10:53] <mpt> froud: I already suggested a solution: guess. I'm writing up my guess on the wiki now.
[10:53] <Burgundavia> the most common problem is that of not finding the info they need, and not having a common place to send people
[10:53] <daven> but users aren't finding it - either they're not looking or it's not accessible enough
[10:54] <froud> not exactly for our purpose here but see this matix
[10:54] <froud> http://linuxvm.org/penguinvm/presentations/LinuxUserProfile.html
[10:54] <Burgundavia> http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:eqx-zkGesZ4J:www.nngroup.com/events/tutorials/camp.html+&hl=en&client=firefox
[10:54] <Burgundavia> hmm, big surprise, 3 women out of 4 instructors
[10:55] <froud> are people behind a study or not?
[10:55] <froud> do you want 0% or 50%
[10:56] <mdke> without having read the whole discussion...
[10:56] <mdke> i support consulting users, but I think also we should use common sense to figure out what is required
[10:56] <froud> mdke: hello dude
[10:56] <mdke> yo
[10:56] <jeffsch> i feel a study will take a long time and not accomplish much
[10:56] <mpt> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LocalHelpOutline
[10:56] <mpt> There you go
[10:56] <jeffsch> it will take a month just to agree on how to conduct the study
[10:57] <froud> I have templates and plans that I use for my projects
[10:57] <mdke> yes i tend to agree with jeffsch that the time put in might not weigh up with the benefits gained, but I think it is important to take users needs into account :/
[10:57] <mpt> Ok, I have to get out of here
[10:58] <froud> mpt file that under he Doceam
[10:58] <froud> Docteam
[10:58] <froud> mpt thanks
[10:58] <mpt> ok, tomorrow if I have time
[10:58] <froud> sure
[10:58] <froud> come to the meeting
[10:59] <froud> jeffsch: it takes abot 10% of project time
[11:00] <mdke> ok i'm out, see you guys tomorrow
[11:00] <froud> Ok dudes think on what we has said here. It has been productive. I now have a meeting and must leave you for awhile. Thoughts and feeling to th elist
[11:00] <froud> if you feel I am to pushing on this, say so
[11:00] <jgotangco> ok sounds good im going to the barber
[11:01] <jeffsch> i should go too. bed time.
[11:15] <Burgundavia> 95% of users questions could be solved by googling
[11:16] <daven> burgundavia: i'm not that amazing at troubleshooting - reasonably new to linux.  i'm just sat there searching the wiki and google, and replying...
[11:16] <Burgundavia> indeed
[11:17] <Burgundavia> I can see why certain channels get reps though
[11:17] <daven> i don't think people always understand that there isn't anyone on there who knows about *everything*
[11:17] <Burgundavia> generally, you will find somebody who knows something
[11:17] <Burgundavia> and the 90/10 rules helps you
[11:27] <daven> what, 90% of questions on 10% of topics, or something?
[11:28] <daven> yes - it does seem a pretty good bet
[11:28] <daven> i'm waiting for a quiet moment for my question ;)
[11:28] <Burgundavia> what is yours?
[11:29] <Burgundavia> goog^H^H^HI might be able to help you
[11:29] <daven> lol
[11:29] <daven> i'll ask in the main room - might as well give others the benefit...
[11:54] <abelli> halo
[11:56] <Burgundavia> salut
[12:44] <mpt> Ah, the joys of Win98
[12:44] <jsgotangco> wow
[12:45] <Burgundavia> mpt, when have you had to suffer that?
[12:45] <jsgotangco> one reason i keep my windows here is because i play a couple of games
[12:45] <mpt> Burgundavia: right now :-)
[12:46] <Burgundavia> mpt, why, in gods are name, are you doing that?
[12:46] <mpt> Burgundavia: Because I can't dial up on my laptop
[12:46] <Burgundavia> mpt, oh fun
[12:48] <jsgotangco> mpt same here
[12:48] <Burgundavia> the joys of living in a big city in one of the most connected countries on the planet
[12:49] <Burgundavia> last time I saw dialup was about 1 year ago, when I wasn;t in a big city
[12:49] <daven> when i went on holiday i had to use GPRS - i'm still waiting for the bill :-s
[12:50] <jsgotangco> dsl is still expensive in my place but its metered so i still use pre-paid dial up sometimes
[12:50] <daven> hmm... how do they meter the dsl?
[12:51] <jsgotangco> you pay per MB excess of the allocation they give you
[12:51] <jsgotangco> its crap imo
[12:51] <daven> right - what's the allocation?
[12:52] <daven> i'm thinking about moving to a pay as you go broadband.
[12:53] <jsg> gyaahh
[12:53] <daven> for half the price 512Kbps unlimited, I could have 1Mbps with 1GB included.  the price would increase up to 6GB, at which point the cost would cap at the same as my current 512Kbps
[12:56] <mpt> Sunday 1200 UTC
[12:56] <mpt> hmm, what's that
[12:56] <mpt> That's midnight on Monday morning, woohoo
[12:56] <jsg> hehe
[12:56] <Burgundavia> 4am here
[12:56] <abelli> where can i find little and explicative description of boot up services?
[12:57] <abelli> i need them for something like an Ubuntu Boot Manager
[12:57] <jsg> 1200 UTC is a nice 8PM in my side
[12:57] <Burgundavia> abelli, Ubuntu boot manager?
[12:57] <abelli> (not mine, a friend of mine did it, and i think he did a nice thing) ...
[12:57] <Burgundavia> abelli, doesn't gnome already have something like this?
[12:57] <abelli> Burgundavia: maybe for sessions
[12:58] <abelli> not services ... afaik.
[12:58] <Burgundavia> abelli, ah, there is a grub editor, that is what I was thinking about
[12:58] <abelli> ahh oik
[12:58] <abelli> Burgundavia: any idea?
[12:58] <Burgundavia> abelli, hmm, scripts in rc.d?
[12:59] <abelli> yes, i need something that explain what the services that those script bring up&&down are.
[12:59] <Burgundavia> abelli, should be pretty easy. Which do you have a question about?
[01:00] <abelli> everyone, isnt there something already done?
[01:00] <abelli> well i think i can write them myself, but i was looking for something already done ...
[01:02] <capsula> Burgundavia: any idea?
[01:02] <jsg> ok its time to play WOW...brb
[01:03] <Burgundavia> abelli, not really
[01:03] <abelli> Burgundavia: thank you anyway.
[01:03] <abelli> Kinnison: can you tail -15 and help me?
[01:03] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, what does you name mean?
[01:03] <jsgotangco> my nick?
[01:04] <jsgotangco> that is my name
[01:04] <Burgundavia> ok
[01:04] <jsgotangco> gotangco is my surname which is my chinese name
[01:04] <Burgundavia> ah
[01:05] <jsgotangco> i used to have other nicks but since i went to freenode ive just used my name
[01:05] <Burgundavia> hmm
[01:06] <abelli> jsgotangco: yes
[01:06] <jsgotangco> oohh google video upload program
[01:07] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, if it is CC then you can upload to WP as well
[01:07] <abelli> jsgotangco: where do you live?
[01:07] <jsgotangco> abelli i live in Manila, Philippines
[01:08] <jsgotangco> but i was born in Taiwan
[01:08] <abelli> taiwan? the home of electronics ahh
[01:09] <jsgotangco> yes sir..home of good and bad electronics heh
[01:09] <abelli> electronics in general :)
[01:09] <abelli> is mainly a sw problem :)
[01:09] <mpt> oh, man
[01:09] <jsgotangco> true
[01:09] <jsgotangco> but you know
[01:09] <abelli> mpt: what?
[01:09] <mpt> the memories, the memories
[01:09] <jsgotangco> i can buy stuff in taiwan like a cisco router clone
[01:10] <jsgotangco> same thing, different price
[01:10] <daven> just about to edit the RootSudo page to note that users are asked for THEIR password, not the root one they don't have.  any objections?
[01:10] <daven> is it ok just to go ahead and modify pages like that?  it feels awkward because someone else might be maintaining them!
[01:11] <abelli> jsgotangco: i love you
[01:11] <jsgotangco> daven if thepage is quite old feel free to edit it
[01:11] <jsgotangco> abelli doh save it for someone else
[01:11] <daven> edited 5 days ago
[01:11] <abelli> daven: no you should do it, i think.
[01:11] <daven> i've seen the question a few times on the channel - of course, putting it in the wiki might not help that ;)
[01:11] <abelli> jsgotangco: can we have a little exchange?
[01:11] <abelli> you come in italy i come in taiwan
[01:12] <abelli> daven: it's worth trying.
[01:12] <daven> abelli: hehe - you not interested in coming to the uk? ;)
[01:12] <jsgotangco> abelli i'd love to go to italy my aunt lives in rome she's a nun
[01:12] <abelli> itll be also nice noting that sudo something & does bring sudo in background .. so it won't be executed if the password hasnt been inserted in the last 5 mins.
[01:13] <abelli> daven: huh ... ive been there for every summer of my life since 3 yrs ago.
[01:13] <daven> abelli: fair enough :)  i must admit i've not been to italy yet
[01:13] <abelli> jsgotangco: come when you want ... but im a bit North
[01:13] <abelli> daven: england where?
[01:13] <daven> southampton
[01:13] <abelli> if it's near Staines ... ahhh
[01:14] <daven> lol - not a million miles from staines
[01:14] <jsgotangco> the 1st and last time i went to Italy I was 7 years old and went to the vatican
[01:14] <abelli> ahh ok, ok i just wanna kiss Ali G
[01:14] <daven> abelli: aye - dat is wicked, no?
[01:14] <abelli> mpt: mm where and when?
[01:15] <abelli> daven: i iz complitely mad for alig and da west side massive.
[01:15] <daven> also, i'm going to remove the "If you wish to do blah..." and replace with "To do blah..."
[01:15] <daven> just checking that i won't get anyone annoyed
[01:15] <mpt> abelli: For a "If you're new to Ubuntu 5.10" section of the help
[01:16] <jsgotangco> daven fair enough we can see changes in the wiki anyway *the immediate ones though*
[01:16] <mpt> abelli: "If you've been using Ubuntu 5.04", "If you've been using Ubuntu 4.10", "If you've been using Microsoft Windows", "If you've been using Mac OS X"
[01:17] <abelli> about microsoft "if you have been wrong till now"
[01:17] <abelli> mmm sorry ... pappa time .. read you later
[01:17] <abelli> ciao buona vita.
[01:17] <mpt> Avoiding the word "using" would be a bonus
[01:17] <daven> does "Page Type" default to what it was before?
[01:17] <jsgotangco> ciao
[01:18] <jsgotangco> just make sure its Moin
[01:18] <daven> yes, it is.
[01:18] <daven> you could say "Migrating from Ubuntu 5.04"?
[01:18] <daven> migrating is a more complicated word, though
[01:19] <jsgotangco> whats the complete sentence btw
[01:19] <mpt> Those are the complete headings
[01:19] <mpt> These are links to be clicked on
[01:20] <daven> i think i would go for migrating
[01:20] <daven> if that's the kind of thing you mean
[01:20] <mpt> in the topic "If you're new to Ubuntu 5.10"
[01:20] <mpt> Yes, but for Aunt Tillie, migrating is what birds do
[01:20] <daven> hmmm. maybe not so good then.
[01:20] <mpt> It's got exactly the right meaning, it's just at the wrong level
[01:20] <daven> yes
[01:20] <daven> i don't see the problem with saying "If you've been using", really
[01:21] <jsgotangco> me either
[01:21] <daven> it's better to be consistent
[01:21] <jsgotangco> its as simple as you can get imo
[01:21] <mpt> yeah
[01:21] <daven> or "Moving from"
[01:21] <mpt> heh!
[01:21] <mpt> I'd just tried "Moving from"
[01:21] <mpt> to see how it looked
[01:21] <daven> :)
[01:21] <mpt> Great minds think alike
[01:21] <daven> it's funny how long these things take - i can spend ages thinking about what words to use in a guide ;)
[01:22] <jsgotangco> daven its much worse when doing i18n
[01:22] <daven> yes, some of the guides i write get sent for translation :-s
[01:22] <Burgundavia> that is why using simpler words is better
[01:22] <Burgundavia> easy to understand and translate
[01:22] <Burgundavia> migrate vs move, etc.
[01:22] <mpt> "If you've been using" has the advantage over "Moving from" that it still works even if you're *still* using the other OS
[01:23] <daven> yes
[01:23] <daven> moving still isn't quite right
[01:23] <Burgundavia> "f you have come from"
[01:23] <daven> i come from england
[01:23] <daven> which section would i read? 
[01:23] <daven> ;)
[01:23] <Burgundavia> used to <-- don't much like that
[01:25] <mpt> mmmm
[01:25] <mpt> Some people think e-mail isn't on the Internet
[01:25] <mpt> and neither is IM
[01:25] <jsgotangco> whats wrong about that
[01:25] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[01:26] <daven> it's tricky, picking the right level.
[01:26] <Burgundavia> some people think that the internet is that blue icon
[01:26] <jsgotangco> FF?
[01:26] <daven> how long does the sudo password persist for?
[01:26] <Burgundavia> daven, 15minutes by default
[01:26] <mpt> jsgotangco: No, the one without any orange in it :-)
[01:26] <Burgundavia> daven, before its asks again
[01:27] <daven> burgundavia: i'm not sure whether it's worth mentioning
[01:27] <Burgundavia> just for the record, gwget is a nice app
[01:27] <Burgundavia> daven, it is, in case they wonder why it didn't ask again
[01:27] <daven> burgundavia: i'll try and work it in
[01:27] <daven> burgundavia: but i didn't understand the bit about "bring sudo", and i couldn't find much in google, so i'll leave that stuff out ;)
[01:27] <Burgundavia> http://gnome.org/projects/gwget/download.html <-- can someone else try and download fireget.xpi
[01:28] <jsgotangco> mpt would it be more effective if we become more specific, ie, accessing net, using email, using im, etc.
[01:28] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I would agree with that
[01:29] <daven> burgundavia: funny characters
[01:29] <daven> burgundavia: i guess it's not sending the headers properly or something
[01:29] <Burgundavia> daven, is borked then
[01:29] <Burgundavia> daven, dammit, I wants it
[01:29] <daven> hehe
[01:29] <daven> "You will be prompted for the current user's password.  By default, you can use sudo for 15 minutes before you're prompted for the password again."
[01:30] <daven> any suggestions before i make my first change
[01:30] <mpt> jsgotangco: All except the first are subcategories of "Accessing the Internet" -- I've put them in one category so as to make room for "Changing the desktop picture and other settings" and "Getting more help" on the help front page
[01:30] <Burgundavia>  By default, you can use sudo stores your password for 15 minutes. After that time, you will be prompted for the password again.
[01:30] <Burgundavia> daven, ^
[01:30] <daven> good plan
[01:31] <Burgundavia> change the password to your password
[01:31] <daven> :)
[01:32] <Burgundavia> always put the doc as mentioning the user
[01:32] <daven> "
[01:32] <daven> You will be prompted for the current user's password.  By default, sudo stores your password for 15 minutes before prompting you (for your password?) again."
[01:32] <daven> i'm inclined to go for less words i think
[01:32] <Burgundavia> You will be prompted for your password
[01:32] <Burgundavia> better
[01:33] <daven> sounds good
[01:33] <daven> You will be prompted for the current user's password.  By default, sudo stores your password for 15 minutes before you will be prompted for your password again.
[01:33] <Burgundavia> You will be prompted for your password, which will be stored for 15 minutes. After that time, you will need to enter your password again.
[01:33] <daven> hehe
[01:33] <mpt> Ok, does anyone here actually have permissions to hack the Ubuntu help front page?
[01:33] <Burgundavia> mpt, it is in svn
[01:33] <mpt> (the one that appears in Yelp, I mean)
[01:33] <abelli> what about "if you come from..."
[01:33] <daven> burgundavia: i'll go with your version :)
[01:33] <Burgundavia> mpt, anybody with commit access can
[01:33] <mpt> Burgundavia: I'm not sure that really answers my question
[01:34] <mpt> Burgundavia: do you?
[01:34] <Burgundavia> mpt, What that means is that I could, until I lost my secret key
[01:34] <mpt> aha
[01:34] <mpt> as in, your GPG key?
[01:34] <mpt> yyyyyyeah, I should back up my key too
[01:34] <Burgundavia> luckily, I hadn't had it signed by anyone yet
[01:34] <jsgotangco> i can commit but....
[01:35] <Burgundavia> be bold jsgotangco 
[01:35] <mpt> well, I was just thinking
[01:35] <mpt> A simple and silly improvement
[01:35] <mpt> would be to change that big heading that says "Help Topics" to "Ubuntu Help"
[01:36] <jsgotangco> well i think that's a standard GNOME help thing but can be changed
[01:36] <Burgundavia> works for me
[01:37] <daven> write - i'm off to the shops.  thanks for the help - i really don't want to tread on anyone's toes! :)
[01:38] <abelli> daven: big ups
[01:38] <abelli> daven: aiiiiiiii
[01:38] <daven> abelli: is you da fox? ;) [over and out] 
[01:38] <abelli> jsgotangco: ok, so will u buy me an ultrasparcII 600 mhz for me ? :)
[01:39] <jsgotangco> what can a sparc 600mhz do for you i have no idea how those work anyway
[01:39] <abelli> daven: me and me julie is going to make you fil mazzively bad.
[01:39] <abelli> jsgotangco: i mean in taiwan :)
[01:39] <jsgotangco> well i am going to dinner first bbl
[01:39] <jsgotangco> abelli when i go there in august
[01:40] <abelli> jsgotangco: buon appetito :)
[01:47] <mpt> Does Ubuntu have any fax software installed by default?
[01:48] <Burgundavia> sane seems to be able to be a front end to one
[01:48] <Burgundavia> so no
[01:48] <Burgundavia> though ask on the devel list
[01:48] <Burgundavia> and if not, file a bug about it
[01:49] <mpt> ISTR a thread on ubuntu-devel about it recently
[01:49] <mpt> Like, maybe a week ago
[01:49] <Burgundavia> gwget needs a resume button
[01:52] <mpt> Silly English putting its verbs before its objects
[01:52] <mpt> So much harder to scan links that way
[01:53] <Burgundavia> check out efax
[01:53] <Burgundavia> most especially the help func
[02:01] <mpt> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LocalHelpOutline updated
[02:03] <Burgundavia> mpt, advanced topics? that is a weasel word
[02:04] <mpt> I know
[02:05] <Burgundavia> what is going to be behind it/
[02:05] <mpt> see the bottom of the page
[02:05] <Burgundavia> hmm, how about server setup
[02:06] <Burgundavia> those who know about man pages can find them themselves
[02:06] <Burgundavia> or info
[02:06] <Burgundavia> gnutella needs a better search
[02:07] <mpt> They may be able to find them themselves, but that doesn't necessarily mean they don't prefer reading them in a proportional anti-aliased font :-)
[02:07] <mpt> arg, it's late and I'm using too many negatives
[02:07] <Burgundavia> I read man in a terminal
[02:07] <Burgundavia> as I suspect do most
[02:07] <Burgundavia> and users should never ever see a man page
[02:08] <Burgundavia> I was about to help someone in #debian
[02:08] <mpt> msdn.microsoft.com uses Verdana
[02:08] <Burgundavia> and then I though f**k it
[02:08] <Burgundavia> Burgundavia is there a quick and easy guide to adding .desktop files to debian packages?
[02:08] <Burgundavia> aardvark bah. smelly ubuntu users.
[02:08] <Burgundavia> nice response, eh?
[02:08] <Burgundavia> and then
[02:08] <mpt> heh
[02:08] <Burgundavia> _rene_ Burgundavia: man cp? ;)
[02:09] <Burgundavia> _rene_ Burgundavia: get the sources, add it, rebuild
[02:09] <Burgundavia> and
[02:09] <mpt> haha
[02:09] <Burgundavia> jethro Burgundavia: I asked mh, not you, but you can read the package maintainer guide
[02:09] <Burgundavia> hmm
[02:09] <Burgundavia> ahh
[02:09] <Burgundavia> this is a change that should be so easy
[02:09] <Burgundavia> I know I am missing one little step
[02:09] <Burgundavia> but I get that response
[02:10] <Burgundavia> no wonder people use Ubuntu
[02:10] <Burgundavia> because most of the time, people get there questions answered
[02:10] <Burgundavia> and not derided
[02:10] <mpt> Jealousy will get them nowhere
[02:10] <mpt> Those aren't nearly the only Advanced topics, btw
[02:11] <mpt> there should be a "..." there
[02:11] <Burgundavia> yes
[02:11] <Burgundavia> I agree with the gnome move to get rid of advanced topics
[02:11] <mpt> Gnome has Advanced topics?
[02:11] <mpt> I didn't know
[02:12] <Burgundavia> meaning tabs or options under the label advanced topics
[02:12] <mpt> Oh, for sure
[02:12] <Burgundavia> hmm
[02:12] <Burgundavia> well #debian was a bust
[02:12] <mpt> in a GUI, it's often a copout
[02:12] <Burgundavia> guess I will try #ubuntu-motu next
[02:12] <mpt> I don't think it's a copout here
[02:13] <Burgundavia> nah, i think I will get help at #ubuntu-motu
[02:13] <mpt> It's the "here be admins and geeks" dept.
[02:13] <mpt> anyway, Gaim for Windows has nearly finished downloading and it's my bedtime
[02:13] <Burgundavia> alright, cya
[02:13] <abelli> mpt: for windows?
[02:13] <mpt> night
[02:13] <abelli> hmmmmm
[02:13] <mpt> Yes, abelli
[02:14] <abelli> do you have that virus?
 Ah, the joys of Win98
[02:14] <mpt> What virus?
[02:14] <abelli> im really sorry for you my friend.
[02:14] <mpt> Virus writers don't support Win98 any more
[02:14] <abelli> ms windows 98
[02:14] <mpt> It's tragic
[02:14] <Burgundavia> lol
[02:15] <abelli> no no the virus' name is MS Windows 98
[02:15] <mpt> We miss out on all the excitement
[02:15] <abelli> and it think its one of the few viruses that you must pay for
[02:15] <mpt> So, abelli, my parents are in a very curious situation where they pay for their virus but they get their antivirus definitions for free
[02:16] <abelli> mpt: why your parents have that virus?
[02:16] <abelli> i lately heard of something called ubuntu ...
[02:16] <abelli> dunno really what it is .. but .
[02:16] <abelli> i think its a nice thing.
[02:16] <mpt> abelli
[02:16] <mpt> dude
[02:16] <abelli> Burgundavia: heard anything ?
[02:16] <Burgundavia> abelli, regarding?
[02:17] <mpt> My mother complains if I so much as move an icon from one side of the screen to the other
[02:17] <abelli> that new thing called ubuntu.
[02:17] <Burgundavia> mpt, I have a father like that
[02:18] <Burgundavia> he spent an entire afternoon changing all the settings on an old machine
[02:18] <abelli> marthin luther king once said "ppl, dont conform, evolute, change"
[02:18] <Burgundavia> when all I had done was change the screen resolution to one size larger
[02:18] <mpt> evolute?
[02:18] <mpt> criminy
[02:18] <abelli> its an itanglish for evolve ... sorry
[02:19] <mpt> heh, English is a silly language
[02:19] <abelli> nature is quantistic ... IT too.
[02:19] <abelli> so we must proceed by steps.
[02:20] <abelli> now win98, tomorrow morning ubuntu hoary 5.04
[02:20] <mpt> right, really sleep time
[02:20] <mpt> honey
[02:20] <abelli> sweet dreams
[02:20] <mpt> mark should have called it Ubuntu Honey
[03:42] <jsgotangco> froud u there?
[03:42] <froud> yes
[03:42] <jsgotangco> i am looking at our wiki pages at the moment (all of 'em)
[03:42] <jsgotangco> what happened to the old members?
[03:43] <Burgundavia> some of them disappeared
[03:43] <froud> people come and go
[03:43] <froud> some talked lots and did nothing
[03:44] <froud> some said nothing and did nothing
[03:44] <jsgotangco> lol
[03:44] <froud> some made promises and did noting
[03:44] <jsgotangco> that bad huh
[03:44] <froud> yes
[03:45] <froud> some just came did on ethng to get their name in the authors list and were never seen again
[03:45] <jsgotangco> to be honest about this i really dont find any logical system here
[03:46] <froud> true
[03:46] <jsgotangco> (just looking at the wiki entries)
[03:46] <Burgundavia> froud, unfortunately, we can't due to license requirements
[03:46] <Burgundavia> if they edited it, we must list them
[03:46] <jsgotangco> the dual license thing?
[03:46] <Burgundavia> but we can list them as historical thanks
[03:47] <Burgundavia> both licenses require it
[03:47] <froud> sure
[03:47] <Burgundavia> though it is debatable if minor edits count for copyright and thus for attribution
[03:47] <froud> my thinking exactly
[03:48] <froud> anyone seen a free open source survey poll app around?
[03:49] <jsgotangco> im not so good at writing this kind of stuff, i was more trained into writing ISO compliant docs so I really dont know if i can finish up one thing that conforms as a help page
[03:49] <Burgundavia> froud, web-based?
[03:49] <froud> Burgundavia: ideally
[03:49] <Burgundavia> getting the new suse 9.3 live-dvd
[03:49] <Burgundavia> froud, can't be taht hard to do
[03:50] <Burgundavia> just forms and an email sending
[03:50] <abelli> froud: idealism?
[03:51] <froud> can be
[03:51] <froud> wonder about this
[03:51] <froud> http://prestopoll.sourceforge.net/
[03:53] <jsgotangco> hmm
[03:53] <abelli> froud: it's not python .
[03:54] <abelli> you're an heretic ... you're under trial by the Inquisizione
[03:54] <Burgundavia> icky
[03:54] <froud> whaaaaah hhhaaaah ah ha ha ha ah sob sob
[03:54] <Burgundavia> php and php5
[03:54] <Burgundavia> http://software.xkopex.com/gnome/gnome3.html
[03:54] <Burgundavia> I imagine this will go around the blogs for awhile
[03:55] <froud> he he
[03:55] <jsgotangco> tiled folders
[03:55] <jsgotangco> icckk
[03:56] <Burgundavia> http://www.student.livjm.ac.uk/cmsphend/gnome/scoop.html
[03:56] <Burgundavia> how about this?
[03:56] <Burgundavia> http://software.xkopex.com/nautilus/
[03:56] <Burgundavia> or that
[03:58] <Burgundavia> he has some good ideas
[03:59] <jsgotangco> i like that drop off zone
[03:59] <Burgundavia> the scoop idea?
[03:59] <Burgundavia> I like that as well
[03:59] <Burgundavia> a sort of meta-side panel
[04:00] <jsgotangco> yes scoop does look it might work
[04:00] <jsgotangco> but it'll eat real estate space for some low rez users
[04:01] <Burgundavia> by the time that is more than vapourware, the average desktop will be 1280x1024
[04:02] <jsgotangco> thats true although ive tried hoary/kubuntu on a new PC with a prescott mobo and shared intel extreme video and it can only do 640x480 as default
[04:03] <Burgundavia> horrible
[04:03] <Burgundavia> my lcd is native at 1280
[04:03] <jsgotangco> i dont think his nautilus idea will be so hot, it looks intimidating to some
[04:03] <Burgundavia> I can't stand anything smaller
[04:04] <Burgundavia> like a lot of UI ideas, they are total absolute crack
[04:12] <jsgotangco> why is it they are making a big deal on the bitkeeper issue
[04:12] <jsgotangco> jeez
[04:12] <Burgundavia> the bitkeeper is big
linus was stupid to use it in the 1st place, and he was stupid to try and support mcvoy over tridge</rant>
[04:14] <jsgotangco> he was being practical (i believe)
[04:14] <jsgotangco> no make that productive
[04:14] <Burgundavia> the issue, is that no FLOSS app got the same amout of development
[04:14] <Burgundavia> at least with OSS there would be something to show for it
[04:15] <Burgundavia> now he is even worse than before
[04:15] <Burgundavia> worse shape
[04:15] <jsgotangco> true
[04:15] <Burgundavia> I think this whole lesson has been very good for the FLOSS community
[04:15] <Burgundavia> it truly shows why never to depend on an non-free piece of software
[04:19] <jsgotangco> 'Minority Report' interface created for US military
[04:19] <jsgotangco> tee hee
[04:39] <jsgotangco> later sleep time
[04:39] <jsgotangco> nite
[06:47] <Burgundavia> I wrote an mpt style doc for suse 9.3. Now I jsut need a webblog to put it on
[07:19] <froud> copy cat
[07:19] <Burgundavia> somebodies got to do it
[07:20] <Burgundavia> already critiqued linspire 5.0 live
[07:20] <froud> So you are becoming a critique these days
[07:20] <Burgundavia> hey!
[07:21] <froud> somebody has to do it
[07:21] <froud> may as well be you
[07:21] <Burgundavia> are you saying I do it well and don't produce much else?
[07:22] <froud> :-) if the hat fits ..
[07:22] <froud> teasing you, you plonker
[07:22] <froud> you know I love you
[07:22] <Burgundavia> i know
[07:23] <froud> ok you have a svn wc
[07:23] <Burgundavia> I currently have no commit access
[07:24] <jeffsch> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LearningUbuntuOutline
[07:24] <froud> by you have a wc
[07:24] <froud> hi jeff
[07:24] <jeffsch> morning
[07:24] <Burgundavia> wc?
[07:24] <froud> working copy
[07:25] <froud> if you do svn up and see the stuff in teamstuff/
[07:25] <Burgundavia> ok
[07:25] <froud> jeffsch: you too mate
[07:25] <froud> mdke: ping
[07:26] <froud> daven: ping
[07:26] <froud> guys svn up and checkout the stuff in teamstuff/
[07:27] <froud> based on my templates I have prepared some of the stuff we discussed earlier today
[07:28] <Burgundavia> arghh, no commit access. I am going to commit myself!!!
[07:28] <froud> patches dude, patches
[07:28] <jeffsch> i like the content spec and info plan
[07:29] <froud> there is an order to the docs
[07:29] <froud> 1. audience
[07:29] <froud> 2. environment
[07:29] <froud> 3. ino plan
[07:29] <froud> info
[07:29] <froud> 4. spec
[07:30] <froud> each doc gets a spec
[07:30] <froud> info plan covers all 
[07:30] <froud> data from 1, 2 used to produce 3, 4
[07:31] <Burgundavia> cool
[07:31] <froud> sometimes 3 can be done first
[07:31] <froud> and reval after 1, 2
[07:32] <froud> So now I need input.
[07:32] <Burgundavia> hmm
[07:32] <Burgundavia> ok
[07:32] <froud> silence will be considered as consent
[07:32] <Burgundavia> I will sick it on my parents, ex, and brother
[07:32] <Burgundavia> I like the idea
[07:33] <froud> good
[07:33] <Burgundavia> I think the questions need tweaking
[07:33] <jeffsch> in our case, how to get enough responses to audience and enviro surveys to make the data valid?
[07:33] <froud> you will find that I dont just talk I actually do
[07:33] <Burgundavia> advertise on the ubuntu website
[07:33] <froud> email, web forms, or poll
[07:34] <froud> jeffsch: you know any good poll apps
[07:34] <jeffsch> hmmm... i used to. I had to build a survey app a while ago and did some research into it
[07:37] <Burgundavia> http://www.unt.edu/benchmarks/archives/2004/december04/rss.htm
[07:37] <Burgundavia> google gives you wonders
[07:38] <Burgundavia> qsurvery
[07:38] <Burgundavia> even links into zope
[07:38] <jeffsch> http://gathering.itm.mh.se/modsurvey/overview.php
[07:38] <froud> and where to get a server running zope
[07:38] <Burgundavia> froud, we already have one
[07:38] <froud> we do
[07:39] <Burgundavia> www.ubuntu.com
[07:39] <froud> Hmmm, yeah you are right
[07:39] <Burgundavia> there is no reason that this couldn't be left up permanently
[07:40] <Burgundavia> and just announce it after each release
[07:40] <froud> sure
[07:40] <froud> now where can I find an interface on that server do do this
[07:41] <Burgundavia> need to talk a dev into uploading it
[07:43] <froud> Hmmm yeah
[07:46] <froud> file format?
[07:46] <Burgundavia> for?
[07:46] <froud> QSurvey
[07:47] <froud> I dont have any multiple shoice questions
[07:47] <froud> only text box responses
[07:47] <froud> and no forks and pipes
[07:47] <Burgundavia> it has textbox
[07:48] <froud> yeah but does somebody have to sit there an create each question. Is there a single file format
[07:48] <froud> a dtd, xsd
[07:48] <jeffsch> Survey v3.0.0 DTD
[07:48] <froud> link
[07:49] <jeffsch> http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=Survey+v3.0.0+DTD&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
[07:49] <jeffsch> that's all i got for now...
[07:49] <froud> does it work undr zope?
[07:50] <froud> this seems like apache mod
[07:50] <froud> Hmmm.
[07:50] <froud> that is cool
[07:50] <froud> both the zope path and the mod path can work
[07:50] <froud> I wonder which is faster?
[07:52] <jeffsch> http://vtsurvey.sourceforge.net/
[07:52] <jeffsch> also understand Servey DTD, but is java
[07:53] <froud> Survey XML is an XML DTD where is the java
[07:54] <froud> oooh java i c nice
[07:54] <froud> yummy
[07:55] <froud> Oh I can live with this
[07:55] <froud> <SURVEY TITLE="TEXT">
[07:55] <froud>   <TEXT NAME="te1" CAPTION="Plain text" />
[07:55] <froud>   <TEXT NAME="te2" MAXLEN="2" CAPTION="Numerical text" MUSTANSWER="yes" NUMERICAL="yes" MAXVAL="99" MINVAL="0" ILLEGALVAL="-2" />

[07:56] <froud> we can hack it in XML against the DTD is SVN
[07:56] <froud> wehn we are ready then we can bother people
[07:57] <froud> easy syntax http://gathering.itm.mh.se/mod_survey/docs/mod_survey_syntax_reference.pdf
[08:14] <jeffsch> ok see you guys later. I must go.
[08:16] <froud> nice mod survey docs are docbook
[08:17] <froud> pity the programmers guide is empty an dthe sysadmin
[08:17] <Burgundavia> when where the latest updates of these various things?
[08:18] <Burgundavia> qsurvey, it looks like 2 years
[08:18] <froud> 3.2.2 (released 2005-01-19).
[08:18] <Burgundavia> for mod?
[08:18] <froud> mod survey
[08:18] <froud> yes
[08:18] <froud> apache module
[08:18] <Burgundavia> seems more stable and reliable
[08:18] <froud> driven from xml file
[08:19] <froud> also easy for us to develop on
[08:19] <froud> easy deploy
[08:19] <froud> just need apache
[08:19] <froud> USE="apache2" ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="~x86" emerge mod_survey
[08:37] <froud> found a web based editor for it too
[08:37] <froud> http://ilse.eveca.de/screenShots.html
[08:42] <froud> Burgundavia: my surveys are normally completed by me. I ahve modified the ones in svn but I wonder if users will actually take the time to type a para on a question
[08:42] <froud> I think we should try use as many mulitiple choice options as possible
[08:45] <froud> 'ello abelli 
[08:46] <abelli> froud: glad to see youre here.
[08:56] <froud> Burgundavia: mod survey has a nice dtd
[08:57] <Burgundavia> always makes life easy if it fits in with existing sutf
[08:58] <froud> yeah I am installing on my local and will test it. It is not all documented, so perhaps I can contribute back in that way
[08:59] <froud> Burgundavia: on the subject of polls, which OS are you?
[08:59] <froud> http://bbspot.com/News/2003/01/os_quiz.php
[08:59] <Burgundavia> depends on state and mood
[08:59] <Burgundavia> let me tell you know
[08:59] <Burgundavia> now
[09:02] <Burgundavia> os/2 warp
[09:53] <froud> Burgundavia: you running Apache 2 on SuSE 9.2
[09:58] <Burgundavia> I have never run suse
[09:58] <froud> OK
[09:58] <Burgundavia> and only played with apache
[09:58] <froud> I just wiped out my mod_status
[09:59] <froud> lemme see if I can retrieve it form the rpm
[10:02] <froud> ah suse you got alove it
[10:28] <daven> apparently I'm Amiga OS...
[10:29] <Burgundavia> froud, what are you?
[10:29] <froud> Debs
[10:29] <daven> froud: gah! you rigged your answers ;)
[10:29] <daven> froud: how come i ended up as amiga os!
[10:31] <daven> i haven't downloaded the information as yet.  i'm currently a long way from even understand where to get svn from.  i'll have to look into it another day, because i'm off to bed now.  however, the "4-step plan" sounds like it would make for clearly defined docs
[10:32] <froud> perhaps tomorrow I will help you with svn
[10:32] <daven> actually, i expect the answers to most of my questions will be in the "getting started with the documentation" guide :)
[10:32] <froud> yep
[10:33] <froud> and Sep by Step Guides
[10:33] <daven> yup :) i really do need to have a good read.  i'm just being careful not to commit myself to this before i know i can, if you see what i mean.  i don't like to say i'm going to help with something and then not do it.
[10:33] <daven> right.  ttfn.
[10:34] <froud> sure
[10:35] <froud> I am of to bed too. Burgundavia the mod_survey is great.
[10:35] <froud> c ya
[10:36] <Burgundavia> cool
[10:36] <Burgundavia> have to play myself
[10:53] <mdke> what's going down