[02:25] <_troy> Hi
[05:00] <_troy> Was interested in helping out with the Ubuntu Doc Team.  I will send an email to the list, thanks
[05:10] <Burgundavia> salut
[05:18] <_troy> Greetings
[05:24] <Burgundavia> did you send a message to the list?
[08:44] <jsgotangco> greetings
[08:48] <Burgundavia> salut
[09:21] <jsgotangco> arrgghh
[09:21] <jsgotangco> bbl
[09:51] <froud> African Greetings
[09:52] <Burgundavia> salut
[09:53] <froud> Have you slept?
[09:53] <Burgundavia> since we last talked, yes?
[09:53] <froud> oh good
[10:03] <froud> He he we're finally fighting the war on bandwidth caps in South Africa
[10:03] <froud> http://www.itweb.co.za/sections/feedback/feedcopy.asp?CommentID=4260
[11:09] <froud> morn mpt 
[11:13] <jsgotangco> hello
[11:13] <mpt> hi froud
[11:13] <froud> jsgotangco: morn
[11:13] <jsgotangco> mpt, froud hello
[11:15] <jsgotangco> froud, the teamstuff in svn, this what we're going to base our next work?
[11:16] <froud> yes, it is aimed at collecting some knowledge from users so we can make informed decisions
[11:19] <froud> jsgotangco: if you have questions and thoughts please do share them
[11:26] <jsgotangco> im looking at the stuff at the moment
[11:48] <jsgotangco> ok im just going to church ill be back in 2 hours for the meeting
[11:48] <jsgotangco> bbl
[11:48] <froud> say hello to god for me. God bless
[11:49] <jsgotangco> haha
[11:53] <Burgundavia> ah crap, meeting. Forgot about that
[11:53] <Burgundavia> means I have to stay up
[11:53] <froud> why do you think I asked if you had slept :-)
[11:54] <Burgundavia> can sleep afterwords
[12:09] <Burgundavia> salut mpt 
[12:10] <mpt> bonsoir
[12:11] <mdke> yoyoyo
[12:12] <mpt> Anyone here know Icelandic?
[12:12] <Burgundavia> no, but if you humm a few bars I can fake it
[12:13] <mdke> nope
[12:13] <mdke> how come?
[12:13] <mpt> Burgundavia: Ok, here goes
[12:13] <mpt> "Nicholas Bourbaki er dulnefni hps strfringa, sem flestir eru franskir ..."
[12:14] <mdke> tried google?
[12:14] <mdke> oh it doesn't do icelandic
[12:14] <Burgundavia> no online will do icelandic
[12:14] <mdke> rubbish
[12:14] <mdke> i guess there's no demand :/
[12:16] <mpt> yeah
[12:16] <mdke> there must be some
[12:17] <mdke> aha!
[12:17] <mdke> Nicholas Bourbaki is dulnefni hps mathematician , whom flestir are franskir
[12:17] <mdke> ;)
[12:18] <mpt> oh well done
[12:18] <mdke> thanks
[12:18] <mdke> maybe its some kind of icelandic dialect
[12:19] <Burgundavia> nha, more likely a crappy tranlator
[12:19] <mdke> hmm
[12:19] <mdke> lemme try putting it in my tardis
[12:19] <mpt> It's from an Icelandic Wikipedia article, so I would hope it's standard Icelandic
[12:20] <Burgundavia> Kinnison, did you get my mail?
[12:20] <Burgundavia> mpt, does this guy have an english interwiki?
[12:21] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: yes, cheeky git
[12:21] <Burgundavia> Kinnison, I had fun writing that
[12:22] <Kinnison> any of the other people on help@ might take offence
[12:26] <mpt> Burgundavia: ah, I found the English article, but it's under a different spelling
[12:27] <mpt> So it's not inter-ed
[12:27] <mpt> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Bourbaki
[12:28] <mpt> http://is.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Bourbaki
[12:31] <Burgundavia> they point at each other, so I assume they are the same article subject
[12:34] <mdke> are we doing the meeting here or in the other chan
[12:35] <mpt> There's another channel?
[12:35] <mdke> ubuntu-meeting
[12:35] <mpt> ooo
[12:36] <mdke> ciao enrico 
[12:37] <enrico> ciao!
[12:37] <Burgundavia> salut enrico 
[12:45] <mpt> That was short and sweet
[12:45] <mdke> :)
[12:59] <froud> dudes time
[01:01] <froud> Burgundavia: where that time zone web site you sent me
[01:01] <froud> forgot to bookmark
[01:01] <mdke> lol
[01:01] <Burgundavia> www.time.gov
[01:01] <Burgundavia> click on utc button
[01:01] <Burgundavia> it is 11 utc
[01:01] <Burgundavia> I forgot about dst
[01:02] <Burgundavia> i am no -9
[01:02] <Burgundavia> now
[01:03] <froud> Burgundavia: no the other one
[01:03] <mdke> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/ ?
[01:04] <mpt> froud, just btw, I'm sure that somewhere in the world there are Mathews with only one T, but I have never, ever, met one
[01:04] <mdke> heh
[01:04] <mdke> only the sucky ones
[01:04] <froud> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?month=4&day=17&year=2005&p1=0&p2=111&p3=-1&p4=-1
[01:05] <froud> so the meeting is at Sunday, April 17, 2005 at 12:00:00	Sun 2:00 PM
[01:05] <mdke> yes
[01:06] <froud> aaaaah not good
[01:06] <froud> gotta go to lunch with family at around that time
[01:07] <mdke> bugger
[01:08] <froud> well in th einterim you guys can read my mesage to the list. should take about an hour
[01:08] <froud> mpt: did I spell your name wrong. I do appologize
[01:19] <mpt> froud: I read your message
[01:19] <mpt> froud: and after reading the last bit, I think you should read http://www.userland.com/whatIsStopEnergy
[01:20] <mpt> Personally, I don't think an analysis based on voluntary writeups is going to be useful, for the reasons I gave yesterday
[01:20] <mpt> but if you want to do it, please, go ahead and do it :-)
[01:26] <froud> mpt: but you don't give a better solution either
[01:28] <mpt> froud: Personally I think guessing would produce better results
[01:28] <mpt> And that's not a knock against anyone
[01:29] <mpt> But the only better solution, creeping up behind people and watching them, is expensive, and there's no way around that.
[01:30] <mpt> I worked in cybercafes for four years, which was a cheap way of avoiding setting up my own usability lab
[01:31] <froud> mpt: please voice your feelings in the list and suggest alternatives
[01:31] <mpt> froud, I've already told you, more than once, I don't have alternatives, other than guessing.
[01:31] <froud> mpt: I realize that my solution is not perfect and I expect it to be. What I am looking for is alternative solutions
[01:33] <froud> mpt: then say so on list and leave it at that. Please I am a positive energy person. I do things to keep moving and fully expect  that people with something valuable to say will improve on my ideas.
[01:34] <froud> mpt: if your effort in this is only to slam everything everyone says then I dont think it will be very helpful. I do believe that your input can be valuable if you approach it will suggestions taking into consideration our environment 
[01:34] <mpt> froud: That's why I'm not going to complain on-list, because you said if anyone did that you'd stop, and I don't want you to stop
[01:34] <froud> mpt: we work within the limitations we have
[01:35] <froud> mpt: NO I DID NOT
[01:35] <froud> I said if I get only one response
[01:35] <froud> negative I will take it as a no
[01:35] <froud> please read in context
[01:36] <mpt> hmm, maybe I misread
[01:38] <mpt> 'If I get back one negative response, I will be "stop."'
[01:39] <mpt> ahhh, I get it now
[01:39] <froud> Please note that I will take silence to equal consent and will make my 
[01:39] <froud> decisions to move ahead or not based on the input and support within our 
[01:39] <froud> team. So if I get back one positive response, I will be "go." If I get back 
[01:39] <froud> one negative response, I will be "stop."
[01:39] <mpt> it's positive - negative, rather than negative > 0
[01:39] <mpt> ok, sorry
[01:40] <jsgotangco> hola
[01:40] <froud> mpt: as I said it is easy to sit on the side and slam people. Not so easy to resolve problems
[01:41] <jsgotangco> figthing again?
[01:41] <froud> RFC: What is Stop Energy?
[01:41] <froud> Posted by Dave Winer, 4/25/02 at 10:11:08 AM.
[01:41] <mdke> jsgotangco, yes
[01:41] <froud> mpt: your posted link
[01:42] <froud> He nmakes a goo dpoint
[01:42] <jsgotangco> go to #war
[01:42] <froud> I've been suckered into debates with Stop Energy proponents too many times, these days I don't propose open protocols or formats unless there is a clear advantage to being open; because I want to move and I'm tired of pointless debates.
[01:42] <froud> Hence I have put stop go into my message
[01:42] <froud> I too what to move in positive direction. Not go in square circles
[01:43] <froud> mpt: my approach to community development is to give proposals that may be solutions to problems providing the community supports them
[01:44] <froud> mpt: I dont spend my time typing message just for the fun of it all the time
[01:45] <mpt> froud: I did what you asked yesterday -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LocalHelp is now a child of https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamProjects
[01:46] <froud> mpt: thanks for that it is valuable inout
[01:46] <froud> input
[01:48] <jsgotangco> crud
[01:49] <froud> chaps I have a png to show you. It is based on a system I developed for one of my customers
[01:49] <froud> http://www.inwords.co.za/helpsys.png
[01:50] <froud> It pertains to a help system under a browser
[01:50] <Burgundavia> hmm
[01:51] <Burgundavia> seems like every other help browser out there, which can be a good and bad thing
[01:51] <Burgundavia> I like the inclusion of search though
[01:51] <jsgotangco> sounds good
[01:51] <froud> Burgundavia: it goes on the basis that users are accustome dto the win help system
[01:52] <Burgundavia> froud, that is based on win, no?
[01:52] <Burgundavia> yes
[01:52] <mdke> where's the dog?
[01:52] <froud> we tried not to make it too different so as to promote easy of use
[01:52] <mdke> help systems must have a dog or at the very least a paperclip
[01:52] <froud> Burgundavia: its html
[01:52] <mdke> heh
[01:52] <froud> but the user requirements were from windows users
[01:52] <jsgotangco> hmmm this is heavy on html and javascript no?
[01:53] <mpt> Looks fairly similar to http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/
[01:53] <Burgundavia> Ideally , i would like to see something like beagle
[01:53] <froud> Well for HTML not reall
[01:53] <froud> y
[01:53] <froud> a few java scripts
[01:53] <froud> and css
[01:53] <Burgundavia> where the main page would be common howtos
[01:53] <jsgotangco> it looks like msdn/technet
[01:53] <Burgundavia> with a big search button
[01:54] <froud> as I said it is based on a windows user profile, but I believe it demonstrates what can be done
[01:54] <jsgotangco> thats a good idea, a lot of people are familiar with that interface
[01:54] <trickie> froud, what does the custom notes do?
[01:55] <froud> trickie: users can add notes inline to the pages
[01:55] <trickie> froud, is that where a user can track of their own additions
[01:55] <trickie> froud, that is nice
[01:55] <froud> trickie: custom notes is a listing of them
[01:55] <froud> yes
[01:55] <froud> they can also send notes in xml format to the customer
[01:55] <trickie> I was thinking about doing something similar for sorta like an Ubuntu Dictionary
[01:56] <froud> in this case an ERP vendor
[01:56] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[01:56] <trickie> and people could make their own and even submit them
[01:56] <jsgotangco> i knew it
[01:56] <jsgotangco> that's why its so familiar
[01:56] <jsgotangco> it looks like the help of oracle ebsse
[01:56] <froud> jsgotangco: maybe I am not saying
[01:57] <froud> trickie: in the system admins sometimes put help central
[01:57] <trickie> froud, that looks really nice
[01:57] <froud> trickie: so notes are also shared to other users
[01:57] <trickie> froud, yeah... so the doc can grow organically
[01:57] <froud> yes and feeback on docs in inline
[01:58] <trickie> more of what we need i reckon as a opposed to a system of showing seperate 'user manuals'
[01:58] <froud> we have visability into what users note to themselves
[01:58] <mpt> It's 1200 UTC
[01:58] <trickie> yes... #ubuntu-meeting?
[01:58] <jsgotangco> would it be possible to "push" new stuff in this interface
[01:58] <froud> oh yes it is
[01:58] <froud> jsgotangco: yes it is
[01:58] <froud> and it is user profiled
[01:59] <froud> the syste admins see other topics
[01:59] <jsgotangco> cookies?
[01:59] <froud> yes
[01:59] <froud> ok meeting
[02:05] <froud> So its a daemon
[02:05] <Burgundavia> Burgundavia hey, take a look at this idea:
[02:05] <Burgundavia> Burgundavia http://img107.echo.cx/my.php?image=help2ui6ja.png
[02:05] <Burgundavia> froud Burgundavia: nice suggestion
[02:05] <Burgundavia> Burgundavia by default, it woudl show common things
[02:05] <Burgundavia> Burgundavia and when they searched, it would reorder itself
[02:05] <Burgundavia> Burgundavia very simple ui
[02:05] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco would beagle be part of breezy
[02:05] <Burgundavia> Burgundavia jsgotangco, that is the plan
[02:05] <Burgundavia> Burgundavia but this would be a standalone app
[02:06] <Burgundavia> Burgundavia I just used beagle as a look example
[02:06] <Burgundavia> froud Gnome only
[02:06] <Burgundavia> froud is the backend desktop neutral
[02:06] <Burgundavia> Burgundavia someone could right a qt frontend
[02:06] <Burgundavia> Burgundavia it is daemon and frontend
[02:06] <Burgundavia> * froud thinks we should take this back to channel until mary arrives
[02:06] <Burgundavia> Burgundavia we might as well talk here
[02:06] <Burgundavia> froud not sure everyone else not docteam is interested
[02:06] <Burgundavia> froud and it would be better to capture it under our weblog etc
[02:06] <Burgundavia> Burgundavia true
[02:06] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco ok
[02:06] <Burgundavia> Burgundavia am going to flood #ubuntu-doc with this talk
[02:06] <Burgundavia> there, now the log has it
[02:06] <Burgundavia> sorry ;)
[02:06] <froud> thaks
[02:06] <froud> so it is a daemon
[02:06] <Burgundavia> beagle isn't really our answer
[02:07] <froud> does it open the help content or only search it
[02:07] <jsgotangco> well true
[02:07] <Burgundavia> just a ui like it
[02:07] <trickie> we could still use a similar indexer
[02:07] <trickie> with python bindings
[02:07] <mdke> ok lets go
[02:07] <jsgotangco> instead of grouped boxes maybe consider doing it as a flowchart perhaps sort of a tutorial stage
[02:07] <hypatia> meeting on?
[02:07] <jsgotangco> sure
[02:07] <hypatia> sorry I'm late -- just drove 5 hours :(\
[02:07] <froud> Burgundavia: nice for our index page
[02:08] <froud> hypatia: no worries
[02:08] <froud> hypatia: you leading the meet
[02:09] <jsgotangco> i forgot
[02:09] <jsgotangco> froud god said hi
[02:09] <jsgotangco> *grin*
[02:09] <hypatia> head over to #ubuntu-meeting folks!
[02:09] <froud> Oh cool god remembers me
[02:22] <Burgundavia> daven, join us in #ubuntu-meeting
[03:25] <jsgotangco> ok that wasnt so bad
[03:26] <jsgotangco> im going to finish my laundry...tata for now
[03:26] <daven> ttfn