/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2005/04/29/#ubuntu-doc.txt

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jsgotangcoBurgundavia, hi06:32
Burgundaviasalut06:32
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froudAfrican Greetings07:57
Burgundaviahello07:57
frouddid you sleep well07:58
BurgundaviaI did07:58
Burgundaviamy sleeping schedule is messed though07:58
froudI can imagine07:58
BurgundaviaI am going to go to bed in a few hours, so that I can wake up at a normal time tomorrow07:59
froudI added an instal guide to the generic last night07:59
Burgundaviasay that\07:59
froudIt's open for contributions07:59
froudshould cover both gubuntu and kubuntu07:59
jsgotangcoi noticed that08:00
jsgotangcogood call08:00
Burgundaviaelmo is on vacation for a week, so I will contact him after that to get my new key added08:00
froudexample of doc profiling if anyone is interested08:00
froudBurgundavia: you can patch in the interim08:00
jsgotangcosure08:02
froudI aksed this question on kubuntu devel yesterday, got no answers, perhaps somebody here knows.08:02
froud[20:01]  <froud> what is standard install footprint of Kubuntu after first boot, in MB08:02
froud[20:02]  <froud> what is standard install footprint after first boot without kde (servermode), in MB08:02
froud[20:02]  <froud> under qemu kubuntu install footprint with kde is 1024 MB. Is this the expected size of the footprint on fixed media?08:02
froudHmm people seem to want to become celebrities08:03
froudeveryone wants to blog08:03
jsgotangcowell08:03
jsgotangcoive been blogging eversince08:03
jsgotangcobut blogging for ubuntu isnt a goal08:04
froudand how does it help08:04
jsgotangcohonest08:04
jsgotangcono idea08:04
jsgotangcowho reads the blogs anyway08:04
jsgotangcoexcept people you know08:04
froudI dunno, perhaps if you are Larry Elison08:04
froudor Bill gates08:04
jsgotangcomaybe we're overreacting08:05
jsgotangcoi dunno08:05
froudto make a blog successful you need to be of a specific profile that is intersting to people08:05
jsgotangcowe only have simple problems imo08:05
froudyeah08:05
froudseems like everyone has replied with +1 but they dont think it will have much impact08:06
jsgotangcoi wanted to refute that because at least we have emprical data whatever the outcome08:07
froudI think the impact will be improved by advertising and knocking on people08:07
froudif we put up a survey and tell no one it is not good08:08
froudwe must try to get it into the linux user groups08:08
froudand our channels08:08
froudyou will be surprised what happens08:09
froudyou remember the document I wrote on installing Kubuntu from GNOME08:09
jsgotangcoyeah08:09
froudI put it on my web site. No link from any other pages08:09
froudin one month 8GB of trafic to it08:10
jsgotangcowow08:10
froudand all I did was post to our list and drop the link into 3 irc channels08:10
jsgotangcoi still think having the survey and results will help only because we have solid data that we can present08:11
jsgotangcoinstead of having gut feeling decisions08:11
froudin april that page got 182 hits08:11
froudin march 27008:12
froudyes08:13
froudbased on a the stats from a simple install page, I think that we will get more hits than we know08:14
froudIf we get 400 hits it is a sample08:14
jsgotangcofroud, just go ahead with the survey, post a link in the list and the forums and it will just explode08:15
froudwell nobody has said no, they just feel it wont work08:15
froudso I will go ahead08:15
jsgotangcohmm right pardon my understanding of english08:15
froudhope Mark or Mako responds08:15
froudit would be good to get support at that level08:16
froudI know mako will put it on ubuntu traffic08:16
jsgotangcohmmm08:17
jsgotangcoi disagree on becoming a member only to be heard08:17
jsgotangcodoh08:17
froudyeah I have a member page, but I am not really looking to become a celeb08:17
froudwhat was intersting to me is how people picked up on the blog idea and changed subject08:18
froudI have four responses about blogs and memberships and only three about the topic08:19
froudone thing has been concerning me for awhile08:20
jsgotangcoenlighten me08:20
froudit seems that people are not trully concerntrated on the documents and finding solutions08:21
froudwe have a small group of people who are active both in committing and idea formulating08:21
jsgotangcogood observation we look good in the lists though imo08:22
froudwell yes, but I wonder how to get others more active08:22
jsgotangcofroud, how about doing a gantt chart at least so we have targets and milestones, etc per document08:22
jsgotangcoand posting it on the wiki at least08:22
jsgotangcolike now, we're starting from nothing08:23
froudyes that is an option, but it is hard to gantt without schedules08:23
jsgotangcoright that's what we need to know then right08:23
froudmy five phase model is kinda a rough milestone08:23
froudjsgotangco: my real problem is that I am doing lots of pulling here08:24
froudI would like to see more proactive people08:24
froudpeople getting ideas08:25
jsgotangcofroud, i wish i can help more with this stuff but i am way over my head with regards to technical xml stuff i am catching up honestly08:25
froudairing them in the group08:25
froudand pushing them forward08:25
froudjsgotangco: I understand that08:25
froudmy remarks are just general observations and feelings08:26
froudthey may be just my own and may be wrong08:26
froudbut speaking about it openly sometimes helps to confirm whether it is just me or a real problem08:26
jsgotangcoi think you're doing good i've joined here from zero and now know some stuff but not at the level of others08:27
froudmy problem is with the people who do know something08:27
froudnot only the xml08:27
jsgotangcowell ok that's a valid point08:27
froudSo far I have yet to see a person pickup a book and run with it08:28
froudI would like to wake up one morn and find the user guide half complete08:28
froudthe admin guide looking good08:28
froudthe faq guide ported to hoary08:29
froudI want to see a list of patches in th elist for aplication and that people have applied them, not just me08:29
jsgotangcowho leads this team anyway08:29
jsgotangco?08:29
froudnobody leads08:29
froudwe are all equally empowered08:29
froudperhaps that is part of the problem08:30
jsgotangcoperhaps that is why chaps like me are still not moving08:30
froudthe other problem I have is with our meeting yesterday08:30
froudpeople sound enthusiastic08:31
froudthere is lots of talk08:31
froudno action08:31
jsgotangcowe're good at that08:31
froudthere is also a disregard for the overhead in suggestions08:31
froudpeople resort to manual solutions instead of thinking out the box08:32
froudits natural08:32
froudbut I dont think wise08:32
jsgotangcofroud, just OT,  can <para> contain just text and stuff at the moment08:32
froudour integration with the devels is not a monitor them thing08:32
froudModel : (phrase|ulink|emphasis|keycap|guibutton|interface|quote|guimenuitem|guimenu|xref|application)*08:33
froudThese elements and text08:33
froudI think if we use a monitor them approach with the devels that we remain an island08:34
froudwe need to be an integral part of development08:35
frouddocs should be seen as part of the product08:35
froudat present this is not the mind set and we have to change that perception08:35
froudits not easy, so we need touch points that are inline with their development process08:36
froudwell I guess I am now using the channel as my blog08:36
froudI am concerned that the systems we put in place are hinging on single individuals08:37
jsgotangcofroud, would it be ok to copy stuff from gubuntu to kubuntu so i have an idea how the structure works08:37
froudsure08:38
jsgotangcocomparing the tags seem to work for me for now08:38
froudI dont think the systems we put in place should work this way, not in this environment08:38
froudthey should be open and accessible to anyone who cares08:39
froudin my experience, people come and go from open projects08:39
jsgotangcoyou mean the commit access thing and all?08:39
froudin general08:39
froudour systems must take this into consideration08:39
froudlets say I leave08:40
froudcan people carry on08:40
jsgotangcoi truly doubt that08:40
froudhey school run brb08:41
jsgotangcook08:41
jsgotangcoi got questions later08:41
froudok back08:48
Burgundaviaunfortunately, the current system has no backup if a documentor drops out08:51
BurgundaviaIe, if I disappear08:51
Burgundaviaas an aside08:52
BurgundaviaI just say gnome-art just hit breezy08:52
Burgundaviathis allows people to browse art.gnome.art and download/install themes without going to the web08:53
froudyes, and what is the people monitoring email lists drop out, the impact can be huge09:01
KinnisonGood morning09:01
Burgundaviasalut Kinnison 09:01
Kinnisonhihi burgerboi09:01
jsgotangcofroud, how do i commit an image09:06
Burgundaviaput it in the dir09:06
Burgundaviasvn add image.png09:06
jsgotangcosvn commit -m nomsg kubuntu-final.png --non-interactive 09:07
jsgotangcosvn: Commit failed (details follow):09:07
jsgotangcosvn: '/home/jsg/DocProjects/ubuntu-docs/kde/images/C/kubuntu-final.png' is not under version control09:07
jsgotangcoerror (1)09:07
Burgundavia'svn add kbuntu-final.png'09:07
Burgundaviathen commit up09:07
jsgotangcook thats it tnx09:08
jsgotangcoyelp sure does render stuff strangely09:17
Burgundaviaindeed09:17
Burgundaviathat is a wierd error09:20
Burgundaviasometimes, I can simply run my mouse over an mp3 file and it will start playing09:21
KinnisonNautilus is previewing the audio file09:21
Kinnisonsystem | prefs | file manglement | preview09:22
Burgundaviawhat??09:23
Burgundaviaok then09:23
BurgundaviaKinnison, hmm, not sure if I like that one09:23
Kinnisons'been there for *ages*09:23
Burgundaviait only happens sometimes09:24
Kinnisonturn it off if you don't like it09:24
BurgundaviaI just did09:24
KinnisonIt starts after a few seconds09:24
KinnisonSo what you're thinking of as intermittent behaviour is probably just inconsistency in your wait periods09:24
Burgundaviacool feature, but not enough visual feeback09:24
Kinnisonyeah09:26
KinnisonWhat I don't like is that it doesn't seem to work for oggs09:26
Burgundaviathere is a bug in b.g about that09:26
Burgundaviathat is why I guess I never saw it09:27
BurgundaviaI rip to ogg09:27
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Burgundavialistening to www.thepartyparty.com09:28
Burgundaviaff needs a new bookmark ui and idea09:29
jsgotangcoBurgundavia, are you familiar with <imagedata>09:33
Burgundavianot really09:37
Burgundaviawhat do you want o know?09:37
jsgotangcois it possible to have an alt property for an image in xml09:38
Burgundavialike text if the image doesn09:38
Burgundaviaload?09:38
jsgotangcoor how to tag certain words to be boldface in yelp09:40
jsgotangcoyes something like that09:41
jsgotangcoit would be easier to use <title> but the front page displays an image09:42
jsgotangcosince the current title is an image, it becomes part of the navigation box below as well09:43
Burgundaviano idea09:43
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jsgotangcohmm maybe a draft would work wonders for me10:51
froud-workjsgotangco: you can have alt text but in our case the figure should show, otherwise I would say the thing is broken.10:51
jsgotangcothe image was ok i just want it to have a real title instead of the image being the <title>10:52
jsgotangcoim basing it on yelp anyway so its probably futile10:52
froud-work<figure>10:53
froud-work            <title>...</title>10:53
froud-work            <screenshot>10:53
froud-work                <mediaobject>10:53
froud-work                    <imageobject>10:53
froud-work                        <imagedata fileref="../../images/&language;/inst0.png" format="PNG"/>10:53
froud-work                    </imageobject>10:53
froud-work                </mediaobject>10:53
froud-work            </screenshot>10:53
froud-work        </figure>10:53
jsgotangcooh ok so there's a mother node <figure>10:54
froud-workwe call it parent10:55
froud-work;-010:55
jsgotangcowhats the difference between <inlinemediaobject> and just <mediaobject>10:55
froud-workfigure Model : (blockinfo?,(title,titleabbrev?),(literallayout|programlisting|programlistingco|screen|screenco|screenshot|synopsis|cmdsynopsis|funcsynopsis|classsynopsis|fieldsynopsis|constructorsynopsis|destructorsynopsis|methodsynopsis|address|blockquote|graphic|graphicco|mediaobject|mediaobjectco|informalequation|informalexample|informalfigure|informaltable|indexterm|beginpage|link|olink|ulink)+)10:56
froud-workinlinemediaobject10:56
froud-workend of mediaobject.attlist10:56
froud-workend of mediaobject.module10:56
froud-workdoc:An inline media object (video, audio, image, and so on).10:56
froud-workInlineMediaObject contains a set of alternative graphical objects. In DocBook V3.1, three types of external graphical objects are defined: VideoObjects,AudioObjects, and ImageObjects. Additional textual descriptions may be provided with TextObjects.10:56
froud-workCategory: Graphics10:56
froud-workInline to the para10:57
jsgotangcohmm where do you get that?10:57
froud-workfrom the DTD10:57
jsgotangcook im only using kate so im a bit limited but im catching up10:58
froud-workmediaobject causes a break in the line10:58
froud-workkate is good10:58
jsgotangcook i will just make drafts first before getting into dtd details11:00
jsgotangcoi will be more productive with that11:00
froud-workthis may be of help11:00
froud-workhttp://www.sagehill.net/livedtd/docbookxml42/index.html11:00
froud-workyou can download it and install it11:00
jsgotangcosounds good ill do that11:02
jsgotangcobbl11:26
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jsgotangcohi abelli12:38
abellijsgotangco: ciao12:40
abellijsgotangco: how is life treating you12:40
abelli?12:40
jsgotangcobad12:41
jsgotangcobut life is still good12:41
jsgotangcowe have our ups and downs12:41
jsgotangcoim at down at the moment12:41
abellihuh right, im sorry for this.12:43
jsgotangcoits ok12:44
jsgotangcoi have been busy doing kubuntu stuff at the moment12:44
abelliohhh i see kde, here's the problem.12:45
jsgotangco?12:47
jsgotangcoproblem?12:48
abellijsgotangco: huh have you got queries disabled?12:50
abellijsgotangco: sorry ... it was a stupid joke , :)12:51
jsgotangcoi don't get it is this some western joke?12:53
abelliyes sorry.12:54
abellisome particular joke, made by a senseless italian brain.12:54
Kinnisonciao andrea. come va?12:56
abelliKinnison: ciao bene grazie, e tu?12:59
Kinnisonbene, bene01:00
jsgotangcook see you guys later01:08
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jsgotangcofroud-work, busy?04:35
froud-workfor you I have a minute04:35
jsgotangcowow04:35
froud-workwaz up04:35
jsgotangcois it ok if i mess up your KDE quick guide04:35
froud-workSure go for it I have nothing in that doc04:36
froud-workhack away04:36
froud-workgive it your best shot04:36
jsgotangcoi've made some changes to it just some drafts and stuff i thought it would be much better to do stuff in Kubuntu for now since Gubuntu is so cloudy at the moment04:36
jsgotangcowell ok i just renamed it to Kubuntu Kwick Guide for one04:37
Burgundaviaick04:37
Burgundaviasorry04:37
froud-workno that is cool04:37
froud-worklet your ideas flow04:37
jsgotangcoBurgundavia, its just drafts Kubuntu has nothing at the moment besides im learning this at the same time so bear with me04:38
jsgotangcoif it renders with yelp its fine with me for now04:38
froud-worktake into consideration the chats we have had recently about quick tour or quick guide04:38
froud-workpower to you dude04:38
Burgundaviajsgotangco, sorry, blanket response to k-labelled stuff04:39
froud-workkubuntu kwick kuide (KKK)04:39
jsgotangcoim not messing up with gnome stuff till after UDU04:39
froud-workjsgotangco: go for it nobody else is you are totally empowered to do what you think. At this stage everything should be in flux, even the gubuntu stuff04:40
froud-workso is the case after every release04:40
froud-workit is only near release that we need to settle down04:40
froud-worktake into consideration the talks we have had04:41
froud-workBurgundavia pointed us to some nice examples04:41
froud-workconsider them also04:41
jsgotangcoim just doing a tree at the moment and experimented on yelp04:41
Burgundaviasomebody with more i18n experience answer the guy on the list?04:43
jsgotangcohmmm04:44
jsgotangcocarlos said before all i18n should be rosetta04:44
jsgotangcoright?04:44
jsgotangcook ill answer this04:48
froud-workjsgotangco: they can do it if our pots have not already come in from the packaging yet. I dunno if Rosetta has done that, mdke should check.04:51
froud-workIf Rosetta has the packages it will find the pots04:52
froud-workthen they should use Rosetta04:52
jsgotangcoi was about to say that04:52
froud-workI dunno if Rosetta is doing what it should the way we discussed it, so if not the they should use svn04:52
froud-workwe dont want to stop them because rosetta is stuffed04:53
jsgotangcoright04:53
froud-workjsgotangco: cool thanks dude04:53
mdkewassup?04:54
froud-workmdke: are th epots from our package in rosetta yet?04:54
froud-workas we understand that is what will happen04:55
froud-workor does happen04:55
froud-workloco team wants to do pt04:55
mdkefroud-work, the situation has not changed to my knowledge04:55
mdkethere are still two copies of aboutubuntu and two of release notes04:55
mdkei'll double check04:55
froud-workand does not know to use svn or rosetta04:55
jsgotangcoi told them if its available in rosetta, do it in rosetta, if not we'll commit their po04:55
mdkei will answer if possible04:56
mdkejust checking email now04:56
froud-workspeak to jsgotangco he is answering04:56
mdkefroud-work, nicely handled with that deka guy04:56
froud-workhuh?04:56
mdkeRe: how to install programs and pluggins in one place04:56
froud-workah ok04:57
froud-workjsgotangco: no top posting dude04:58
mdkeok yeah i know that portugese guy04:58
mdkethe quickguide isn't in rosetta iirc04:58
jsgotangcofroud-work, ok thanks for reminding04:58
froud-workso th esystem of rosetta getting form our packages is broke04:58
froud-worknot good04:58
froud-workI tought it was meant to be fire and forget04:59
mdkefroud-work, don't think there is a system man04:59
mdkecheck out this email from carlos on the rosetta list04:59
mdkehttp://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/rosetta-users/2005-April/000423.html05:00
mdkethe last part is relevant to docteam05:00
jsgotangcojeezz05:01
froud-workmdke: unless we resolve issues like this we will have enormous overheads and get no work done05:01
mdkei'm gonna have a chat with him now05:01
froud-workthanks05:01
mdkethis is a major issue05:01
jsgotangcowhats the use of translation if they dont do it in rosetta05:01
jsgotangcoits supposed to reduce overhead05:01
froud-workpeople think in terms of i10n and not i18n 05:02
mdke?05:02
froud-worklocalization and translation05:02
froud-work$1 = interface05:02
froud-work$2 = documents05:02
jsgotangcoim not following you05:03
mdkei don't get it05:03
mdkei18n stands for internationalization05:03
mdkewhat is i10n?05:03
jsgotangcolocalization05:03
froud-workwhen they designed rosetta they had localization in mind05:03
froud-worknot translation05:03
mdkehmm05:03
froud-workthere is a big diff05:03
jsgotangcoexplain further please05:03
mdkecarlos mdke: Can we delay it a bit, I want  to answer all mails I have about that (and other user support ones)05:04
mdkemdke carlos, yes of course, lemme know when?05:04
mdkecarlos mdke: sure05:04
jsgotangcobecause the english for me seems the same05:04
froud-worklocalization is releted to the interface05:04
jsgotangcoahh05:04
jsgotangcointerface=gnome/kde05:04
froud-workmenus etc05:04
froud-workguilabels05:04
froud-worketc05:04
jsgotangcohmmm05:04
mdkejsgotangco, did you say you had replied to joao?05:04
froud-workthatis i10n05:04
jsgotangcoyes now i get it05:04
mdkefroud-work, rosetta is designed for translation in that case ;)05:05
jsgotangcothats why i was doing abiword and its all menu stuff05:05
mdkejsgotangco, it should have all the parts, error messages etc05:05
jsgotangcoyeah05:05
jsgotangcoi get it now05:05
froud-workbut docs are free prose and presnet challenges05:05
jsgotangcoso that means i18n is not rosetta's goal05:06
mdkewell as far as aboutubuntu and releasenotes are concerned, they are in rosetta, albeit with 2 copies05:06
mdkeand all is translatable05:06
froud-workyes, not without problems05:06
jsgotangcobut majority in rosetta are apps and that explains it so05:06
froud-worki18n was an after thought05:06
jsgotangcothat's why in hoary, you localize apps05:06
froud-workalways is05:07
jsgotangcook i learned something new again05:07
froud-workpeople often get confused between localization and translation05:07
mdkefroud-work, so are you suggesting we don't use rosetta for translation of our docs?05:07
froud-workthe call then the same thing05:07
mdkeit is an option05:07
froud-workmdke: no we want to05:07
mdkefroud-work, obviously it would be desirable05:07
froud-workjust wish they would make it work05:08
jsgotangcoit would be much easier for us if our docs are in rosetta as well05:08
froud-workI must work now05:08
jsgotangcook05:08
jsgotangcofroud-work, thanks again05:08
mdkewe just need to forward them the pot file afaik05:08
jsgotangcoi will be sleeping soon05:08
froud-worknp05:08
mdkei'll ping you guys if carlos calls05:09
jsgotangcook im going to sleep see you guys later05:09
mdkek05:09
mdkejsgotangco, did you answer joao?05:09
mdkeif not i'll do it05:09
jsgotangcomdke, i did but before reading carlos' email05:09
jsgotangcoi told him if its available in rosetta, do it in rosetta, if not, we'll commit05:09
mdkejsgotangco, i didn't get the mail05:10
jsgotangcoits sent to ubuntu-doc as well05:10
mdkehmm05:10
mdkeok it will be here soon then05:10
jsgotangcoyep its alrady on archive05:11
jsgotangcook see you05:11
mdkefroud-work, this will make you smile: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/PaulBoddie/05:16
mdke"vanilla ubuntu" ;p05:17
froud-workyou see, people need to make the diff, I still like gubuntu05:18
mdkevanilla ubuntu is the best i've heard lol05:18
froud-workvubuntu05:19
mdkevavavoombuntu05:19
froud-workpronounced voo boontoo05:19
mdkecarlos has written another msg to our list05:23
froud-workuh now carlos says that the quick guide will be in today05:28
froud-workand joas is gonna take form trunk05:28
mdkedon't worry05:30
mdkewe'll talk to them both05:30
mdkein any case po files can be uploaded to rosetta05:31
mdkei've replied just now to joao05:32
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=== carlos [~carlos@69.Red-80-33-181.pooles.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc
carloshi06:14
carlosmdke: tell me06:14
mdkehi carlos 06:15
mdkemaybe froud-work will join us too06:15
mdkecarlos, we wanted to try and clear up the confusion of documentation in rosetta06:15
mdkefirst of all: are things imported into rosetta automatically?06:15
mdkesuch as our documents06:15
carlosanything that enters into Ubuntu's archive is imported automatically06:16
carlos(if it has a .po/.pot file)06:16
carlosbut the documentation should be handled in a different way06:16
mdkecarlos, what do you mean by "should"06:17
carlosbecause you want to publish .pot files *before* they enter into Ubuntu, right?06:17
mdkecarlos, maybe you can help us figure out what we want06:17
carlosmdke: "should" is that it's not done atm but we are going to prepare a way to do it06:17
mdkecarlos, the system currently is confused: we write docs and can make pot files from them06:17
carlosthen, you need to put those .pot files into Rosetta06:18
mdkecarlos, i am not sure whether these pot files go into the ubuntu Archive or not06:18
carlosmdke: if they exists in the .deb's source packages06:18
mdkecarlos, yes we need to ask enrico about that06:18
carlosthey enter into the ubuntu archive06:18
carlosI think ubuntu-doc ones does06:18
mdkecarlos, currently, there are TWO copies of two of the ubuntu docteam documents06:18
mdkeand NONE of the quickguide06:18
mdkecarlos, can you remedy the duplicate situation?06:19
carlosmdke: yeah, the quickguide was my fault06:19
carloshmm, can you give me the URLs?06:19
mdkeyeah hang on06:19
carloswe don't have an easy way to change that atm, still working on it, but I can try to do something...06:19
mdkewe need to figure out why it happened06:20
mdkeok they are:06:20
mdkehttps://launchpad.ubuntu.com/distros/ubuntu/hoary/+sources/ubuntu-docs/+pots/review-hoary-ubuntu-docs-106:20
mdkethen 1/2/3/406:20
mdkethis is probably due to a problem in the source package you think?06:21
=== carlos checks
carlosso -1 and -3 are the same06:22
carlosand -2 and -4 are also the same06:22
mdkei can't remember06:22
mdkeeither that or 1=2, 3-406:22
carlosmdke: no, 1 and 3 have 127 messages and 2 and 4 have only 2406:23
mdkeok that's it06:23
mdkewe only have one pot file in our repository, i don't know how it happened06:24
mdkeany ideas?06:24
carlosthe source package of ubuntu-docs have lots of .pot files06:25
carlosaboutubuntu/about-ubuntu.pot06:25
carlosquickguide/quick-guide.pot06:25
mdkeso far so good06:26
carlosreleasenotes/release-notes.pot06:26
mdkeany more?06:26
carlosand then some extra .pot files inside common/06:26
carlosbut we don't have support for more than one .pot file inside the same directory06:26
mdkecarlos, but the thing is, only one per document, whereas in rosetta there are two06:26
carlosand that's why they are not also imported06:26
mdkecarlos, oh thats not a big deal we can figure that out06:27
mdkecarlos, i will make a mental note though06:27
carlosyeah, not sure why it's that way, let me check something...06:27
mdkecarlos, thanks06:27
mdkeonce we have figured this out we can get onto other stuff06:28
carlosok06:29
carlosmdke: is there anyway you name the .po files as ca.po instead of about-ubuntu-ca.po ?06:29
carlosas they are inside a directory, you should know the "about-ubuntu" part06:30
carlosand that way, Rosetta is able to import those .po files automatically06:30
mdkecarlos, i'm most concerned about getting the original .pot files in, as probably for the next release we will not have partly done translations in our tree06:31
mdkecarlos, what we want to work on is to figure out whether rosetta will be capable of working for our documentation06:31
carlosmdke: if you give us your requirements and they are not too difficult to achieve, I don't think there should be any problem. If it's difficult because it breaks the current workflow too much, we need to study it before to know if it's possible or not06:33
mdkecarlos, ok, all i want to do is to find out why there are duplicates so that we can fix it06:33
mdkecarlos, it may be that rosetta does not need work done to achieve our requirements, we just need to coordinate and communicate so that we know it works06:34
carlosmdke: ok, I know where is the problem06:36
mdkecool06:36
carlosmdke: it's because the package I got from you to do the initial upload06:36
carlosmdke: it's using different paths06:36
carlosthan the ubuntu package06:36
mdkeright so we can fix this06:37
carlosmdke: yes, but you don't need to care about it06:37
mdkehow come?06:37
carlosI will kill the old one and that's all06:37
mdkegreat06:37
mdkemerci06:37
mdkeright what was my second issue06:37
carlosI need to check now why the quickguide was not uploaded automatically...06:38
mdkecarlos, side issue: how come the quick-guide.pot is not uploaded?06:38
mdkeLOL06:38
carlos:-)06:38
carlosmdke: sorry, I cannot explain you where is the problem...06:44
carlosbecause I don't understand what's failing06:44
mdkecarlos, ok we can work on it later06:45
mdkecarlos, next question?06:45
carlosI need to look into the problem with more time. Seems a bug in our import code, but I don't understand why...06:45
=== carlos opens a bug
mdkecarlos, i'll file?06:45
carlosmdke: sure06:45
mdkeok you, cool06:45
carloshmm, if you could file it, is better..06:46
carlos:-)06:46
mdkecool will do06:46
mdkecarlos, next question: is there any way to give them better names? does this depend on the pot file structure?06:46
mdkereview-hoary-ubuntu-docs is bizarre06:46
carlosmdke: yes, there is a way to change that, no you cannot change it directly.06:47
mdkeso it doesn't depend on the hoary upload?06:48
carlosIt's my fault it's still that way, need to review (as the name says) to give it better names06:48
mdkeOhhhhhh06:48
carlosmdke: it's only related with the first upload06:48
carloswe try to guess a good name06:48
mdkehoary-ubuntu-docs would be an improvement ;)06:48
mdkeright next question06:48
carlosbut sometimes it's not possible (like ubuntu-doc's .pot files) and we need to review it by hand06:48
Burgundavia_carlos, that url is horrible06:49
carlosBurgundavia_: the URL will change also06:49
Burgundavia_carlos, good, is much too long06:49
carlosas soon as we use the right name06:49
mdkeobviously from now on we will be working on documentation for breezy and the existing documentation will change a lot: in order to change this in rosetta, we should (a) upload pot file manually, (b) upload to hoary/breezy, (c) figure out a way for rosetta to get it from our repository (d) some other option????06:50
mdkecarlos, tell me if the question isn't clear06:51
carlosmdke: yes, it's completely clear06:51
carlosmdke: we are going to work on a proposal next week 06:52
carlosmdke: will give you some input before implementing anything. Until that moment, you should give me the .pot files you want to upload into Rosetta and I will be your "interface"06:52
mdkecarlos, that's fine06:53
mdkecarlos, will they be overwritten by the older ones in the hoary archive?06:53
carlosno, as you can see, the URL you are using has "hoary" in it06:54
carlosso the development one will be in other URL06:54
mdkeright06:54
mdkeand what will happen to the hoary one?06:54
mdkeif translations are made06:54
mdkedo they get uploaded back into hoary source and upgraded?06:55
=== froud reads log
carlosmdke: if you fix the problem with the .po names, the available translations will appear as soon as you do a new upload into Hoary06:56
carlosabout the .pot files, until you have a way to upload them, you should send me them also06:56
froudsome of the problems can be averted on our side06:56
mdkecarlos, I mean, what will happen to translations which happen on Rosetta06:56
mdkedo they go back to the hoary archive?06:57
froudseems there is a constant problem with &quot;06:57
carlosmdke: for applications, yes. For documentation, is your choice06:57
froudwe must use <quote></quote>06:57
mdkecarlos, right we will need to talk to enrico about that06:57
carlosmdke: the language packs are not able to handle documentation06:57
mdkecarlos, so we will need to get the .po files manually from rosetta and upload them?06:58
carlosmdke: yes06:58
mdkeright that seems clear06:58
mdkegood06:58
carlosfroud: could you give me more details, please?06:58
mdkefroud, can we address questions of compatibility separately06:58
carlosfroud: if possible with links to Rosetta to see it06:59
carlosmdke: ok, for the rename06:59
carlosmdke: ubuntu-docs/aboutubuntu, ubuntu-docs/quickguide and ubuntu-docs/releasenotes06:59
carlosthose will be the URLs07:00
mdkecarlos, lovely07:00
carloswhat do you want for the descriptions?07:00
mdkeWhat is the current description?07:00
froudcarlos: I dont see rosetta, jus the src on our side. I notices that when we use entity references we have problems07:01
froudfor example I have an &entity; here07:01
mdkefroud, entities come up in rosetta, and as long as the translators maintain them in the translation, then this is fine07:01
carlosalso, you will have one ubuntu-docs/deprecated-do-not-use until we can remove it, ok?07:01
mdkecarlos, great07:01
mdkecarlos, for description just "releasenotes for ubuntu hoary" or whatever07:02
carlosmdke: the current description is review-hoary-ubuntu-docs-3 for ubuntu-docs in Hoary Hedgehog07:02
mdkeok then aboutubuntu for ubuntu-docs in Hoary Hedgehog seems reasonably compatible with the descriptions of the other packages in the tree07:02
carlosfroud: could you at least give me the msgid? (I suppose the German translation is a good place too look for the problem)07:03
carlosmdke: you don't need to follow the standard07:03
froudwe had it in German cause of charcters07:03
mdkecarlos, i'm not too bothered07:04
carlosmdke: as long as the description let the user know that it's for Hoary and that it's documentation is ok07:04
mdkecarlos, fine07:04
froudalso had problems in tl07:04
froudnot sure that this was due to rosetta though07:04
mdkeyes we did have character problems07:04
carlosas those sound more related with the .po export07:05
froudit mainly occures in our xrefs etc07:05
carloscould you file a bug report with all of them?07:05
froudyes I think it is the escaping \07:05
mdkecarlos, we'll try and get together a more definitive problem07:05
carloswith the msgid that is causing the problem07:05
froudsometime too many \\\07:05
carlosso we can debug it easily07:05
carlosfroud: yeah, it's possible, there is already an open bug about escaping problems07:06
froudbut is it rosetta or msgmerge07:06
froudor po2xml07:06
carloshttps://launchpad.ubuntu.com/malone/bugs/11907:06
froudok rosetta07:07
froudwell at least we know why, tought it was me :-)07:07
froudmdke: do you have the process clear in mind now?07:08
mdkecarlos, with breezy in mind, i had one more question07:08
mdkecarlos, it is not possible to get language translations done in Rosetta to be exported automatically either to breezy archives, or better, to our svn repository?07:08
carlosNot in the near future07:09
carlosbut add it to the wish list07:09
carlosmdke: what we have is a way to get all .po files inside a tarball07:09
mdkecarlos, you think in the 6 months before breezy it is doable07:09
carlosbut we are improving it so it's faster. At the moment it takes a lot of time to do the export.07:10
carlosmdke: it depends on many factors07:10
carlosmdke: integrated with SVN... I don't think so07:11
carlosif you are able to get something like the language packs that Martin is doing at the moment but with documentation...07:11
carlosthen it's doable, yes07:11
mdkecarlos, we would have to get some developers on it07:11
mdkecarlos, i think that would have to be put to sabdfl07:11
mdkebut as it is, I am happy to get the files manually and commit them07:12
carlosand perhaps if you move to arch/bazaar, is also doable, but not sure. Our plan is to move back translations into bazaar, but we don't have a date for it07:12
carlosmdke: as I said, add it to the wish list so we don't forget it when we discuss Rosetta future next week.07:13
mdkecarlos, so Rosetta is going to be abandoned before it is perfected in favour of bazaar?07:13
carlosno way :-)07:13
mdkeok phew07:13
carlosI'm talking about adding a way to export translations from Rosetta into bazaar automatically07:13
froudbazaar need sa gui07:14
froudfor adoption in this team07:14
mdkecarlos, anyway I feel a bit clearer about the process now, and I hope that we will iron out those duplicate/naming problems07:14
carlosmdke: today should be fixed07:15
carloswill ping you when it's done07:15
mdkecarlos, we can test run the quickguide in rosetta and see how it goes07:15
mdkecarlos, there is a portugese team just waiting to be let loose on it07:16
mdkei'll also try and stir up the italians07:16
mdkecarlos, thanks for all your help07:16
carlosno problem07:17
carlosand please, file bugs as soon as you detect them07:17
mdkeright07:17
carlosso we can also fix them :-)07:17
mdkei will follow up what we've discussed07:17
=== carlos didn't know about the duplicate problem until today
mdkecarlos, i've posted it to the rosetta list about 3 time07:17
mdkes07:17
mdke:p07:17
carlosthought it was only a problem with the names07:17
mdkebut in future i will use malone for stuff like that07:18
carlosthank you07:18
mdkehmm07:19
=== mdke wonders about the chances of getting another docteam upload to hoary
carlosmdke: will you rename the .po files then?07:19
mdkecarlos, you mean the ones in common/?07:20
carlosmdke: no, the .po files07:20
carlosfrom DOCUMENT-es.po to es.po07:20
carlosso Rosetta can import them automatically07:20
mdkecarlos, the difficulty is that we have already tagged that release07:20
carlosand people can see that those translations already exists 07:20
mdkeour tree is working for breezy now07:20
carlosmdke: you are not getting new updates?07:20
mdkecarlos, I have no idea about the possibility of uploading to hoary from now on07:21
carlosthere is a pt_BR translation from this weekend for about ubuntu07:21
carlosmdke: it's ok to upload translation updates07:21
carlosI think the documentation is inside that case07:21
mdkefroud, is it possible for us to commit new translations to the tagged tree, for uploading to hoary as an update07:22
mdke?07:22
froudrenaming could have large impact on us07:22
froudespecially in commons07:22
mdkefroud, its just the .pot/.po files that need to be renamed07:22
mdkefroud, it could be included in the xml->po and po->xml stage?07:23
froudto lang.po07:23
froudbut what about pot?07:23
mdkewhat is the distinction?07:23
carlosfroud: the .pot file is ok as it's atm07:23
mdkeah right07:23
carlosfroud: in fact, is better if you don't rename the .pot file to often or Rosetta will get confused07:24
mdkecarlos, our current tree does not have the po files in the same directories, we have restructured the tree07:24
mdkecarlos, do you want to take a look at it?07:24
froudwe have automated our en.xml > pot > po > nn.xml process07:24
carlosmdke: oh, then Rosetta will not be able to import the .po files ...07:24
froudwould have to change scripts07:24
carlosbut it's not a big problem, we need to add support for that configuration, so don't worry07:25
mdkecarlos, that is not a problem because it is only the .pot file that needs to go into rosetta 07:25
carlosmdke: not really07:25
mdkeindividual translations can be uploaded separately07:25
carlosif you don't want people waste their time07:25
carlosmdke: you need to upload .po files into Rosetta 07:25
froudI'm a bit lost07:25
froudI thought they are already there07:26
mdkecarlos, ok we need to make a distinction between hoary and breezy here07:26
carlosmdke: ooh, I see your point. Ok07:26
froudwe need to get them07:26
mdkebreezy = ALL translations to be done in rosetta, none outside, if possible07:26
froudbut to upload changes we need the same file sname conv07:26
froudotherwise we get duplicates07:26
froudright?07:26
mdkefroud, what do you mean?07:26
froudtrying to understand07:27
froudhold a sec07:27
froudas I see07:27
froudwe give pot07:27
froudlocos make pos07:27
froudin filename nn.po07:27
froudwe get this07:27
froudwe need to keep this convention07:27
froudso when we have changes the same filename exists in rosetta07:28
froudright?07:28
carlosmdke: well, if you import a .po file that has been downloaded from Rosetta, the statistics part of Rosetta also changes07:28
=== mdke 's head swims
froudimport to where07:28
carlosmdke: so people can know how many translations landed into Ubuntu already07:28
carlosmdke: (instead of purple you get green bars)07:28
mdkeright...07:29
froudcarlos you want po files in nn.po naming convention?07:29
carlosfroud: yes, please07:29
froudfine07:29
frouddone07:29
mdkelisten hold your horses here everyone07:29
mdkefroud, that only helps if they are uploaded to the hoary repos07:29
carlosfroud: it's the only way we have to map the .po files to the right language07:29
froudok07:29
froudclear07:29
mdkeand to upload we need to rename and upload our OLD tagged tree, correct?07:30
froudI will update our script07:30
carlosmdke: right, and that's done as soon as you upload a package into the archive07:30
carlosmdke: not really, I will take care of it07:30
mdkefroud, are you clear that we are talking about the OLD trunk07:30
froudI cant do much in old trunk07:30
carlosmdke: as soon as next releases are done with the new name...07:30
froudfreeze is frozen07:30
froudthe change must happen in rosetta07:30
mdkeok we need to be very clear here07:30
carlosmdke: I'm talking about both, hoary and hoary+107:31
mdkefor breezy this problem doesn't arise because we won't be uploading po files07:31
mdkethey will be created and made in rosetta07:31
froudcarlos you will have to rename all current po files (hoary ones)07:31
froudI will rename in breezy trunk07:31
froudthat way if we import the file name is the same07:32
froudwill that work07:32
carlosfroud: ok07:32
froudmdke: we cant do much about hoary here07:32
mdkefroud, right, that is what I asked you07:33
froudwhat we need is to make sure breezy trunk conforms07:33
mdkefroud, much of mine and carlos's conversation has involved hoary: in fact rosetta does not yet have breezy in it07:33
froudAt end of our dev there will alread be a file for nn.po in rosetta07:33
froudmdke: I cannot do anything about hoary it is gone07:34
froudtrunk is now breezy07:34
mdke*sighs*07:34
mdkei understand that07:34
froudso we need to move fwd07:34
froudproviding that carlos has the same filenames as we do then it will merge07:34
froudahead in time07:34
froudcarlos: is that correct07:35
froudeg07:35
carlosmdke: but as soon as breezy is added to launchpad, the translations will be imported automatically, so better fix it as soon as possible :-)07:35
mdkeyes of course07:35
mdkecarlos, but we haven't uploaded to breezy yet don't worry07:35
froudyou have hoary ver of es.po that you renamed07:35
froudI rename breezy version to es.po07:35
froudin rosetta the hoary and breezy po files merge07:36
froudcarlos: do I understand it07:36
carlosfroud: yeah, as I said, don't care about Hoary, I will fix that07:36
froudOK that makes life easier07:36
mdkecarlos, if it appears (as froud says) that the docteam is unwilling to do any more uploads to hoary, then it will be a good idea to remove the docteam things from rosetta07:36
carlosunless you release updates to the Hoary documentation, in which case, you should use the new names, please.07:36
froudmdke: we need to focus on getting trunk in shape07:36
mdkefroud, that will not be difficult07:36
carlosmdke: I doubt we are not going to accept documentation updates07:37
froudcarlos: we have no update to hoary07:37
carlosbut I'm not the right person to ask07:37
mdkefroud, it would be a translation only update07:37
froudmdke: no07:37
carlosfroud: yeah, I'm talking about translations updates07:37
mdkefroud, the other translations in rosetta will be uploaded into hoary via the language packs07:37
mdkefroud, no what?07:37
carlosfroud: really? it's just like a language pack update07:37
carlosthe language packs will be updated once per month07:38
froudso we will be patching tags/07:38
carlosSo Hoary gets security + critical bugs + translations updates07:38
mdkefroud, i wanted to explore the possibility07:38
mdkefroud, otherwise we should remove the docteam stuff from rosetta/hoary07:39
froudooooh we are getting into trouble07:39
mdkebecause people will be doing translations that will not get into the distribution07:39
mdkefroud, why?07:39
froudmdke: ok but we must make sure that we apply our patches to the tag and not trunk07:40
mdkefroud, yes, in fact I would be in favour of removing all translations from trunk when they are imported into rosetta07:40
froudand now we will have to rename trunk and tag07:40
mdkefroud, we can explore the possibility with enrico and mdz (we have to make sure they are willing to accept the upload first)07:40
froudhow to you propose getting the xml07:40
mdkefroud, yes this is a good point07:41
froudat some point a po must hit our repos07:41
mdkefroud, oh sorry i wasn't clear07:41
froudon our side we have the process07:41
mdkefroud, after the existing translations are imported into rosetta, the proposition is that all translation is done in rosetta, then, shortly before release, the po files are taken from rosetta, made into xml, and released07:42
froudinternally that is07:42
mdkegetting the po files from rosetta would be done manually, and I am happy to do it07:42
mdkeand commit to our repo07:42
mdkeam i being clear?07:42
froudmdke: can we automate07:42
mdkeno07:42
froudemail the po07:42
froudto the list07:43
mdkegood idea07:43
mdkecarlos?07:43
froudfirst committer does svn commit07:43
froudget po files as they are complete07:43
froudnot one big job07:43
froudwe still need to make the nn.xml07:43
froudso es.po must become manual-es.xml07:44
froudwe need to test07:44
froudand we nee to check the screen capts07:44
mdkeyes07:44
froudsorry I like stuff in dribs and drabs07:44
carlosmdke: ?07:44
froudthat way work level is more or less constant07:45
froudwith big batches everyting goes mad07:45
froudthen quite again07:45
mdkecarlos, we are talking about the process of getting completed po's from rosetta (for hoary+1): you remember you said it was difficult to automate, froud wonders if it is possible to automate emails sent to the doclist with completed po files07:45
carlosmdke: not atm, not sure in the near future07:46
mdkeok we can think about it07:46
mdkefroud, otherwise I will keep an eye on it07:46
carlosmdke: but it has not too much mistery, we will have a URL to get all .po files for that POTemplate07:47
froudmdke: yes, but add files as they complete07:47
mdkefroud, i said I would add that to the rosetta wishlist07:47
carlosso it should be easy07:47
mdkefroud, yes fine07:47
mdkecarlos, yes of course, so it is easy to do manually07:47
froudcarlos: why not script it and wget new po files07:47
froudsorry I am a lazy bugger07:48
mdkethis will not be our biggest issue07:48
froudthe more auto the better07:48
froudmdke: you know I am gonna have problems renaming in tags/07:49
froudthe make system will break07:49
carlos'About page for Ubuntu Hoary', 'Quick Guide for Ubuntu Hoary' and 'Release Notes for Ubuntu Hoary' -> Those are the descriptions/titles people will see after the rename, is it ok?07:49
carlosfroud: you are free to do the script :-)07:49
froudtitles are good07:50
mdkecarlos, cool thanks07:50
mdkefroud, ok we can talk about the tag issue now, but carlos doesn't have to stay right?07:50
froudsure07:50
mdkegreat07:51
mdkecarlos, :) thanks a million for your patience07:51
carlosno problem07:51
froudmdke: renaming of files in trunk is gonna break many things07:52
froudthe debs build system for one07:52
mdkefroud, hmm07:52
froudenrico has many rules and directories07:52
mdkefroud, which shall we talk about first?07:52
froudwhich ever07:52
mdkei have a good solution for trunk07:53
froudlet here07:53
froudhear07:53
mdkeoh no i need to think it through07:53
mdkei'm gonna think out loud07:54
froudok07:54
mdkeessentially, it is not necessary for breezy that po files get uploaded automatically from the breezy archive. It is only the pot files that need to be uploaded directly to rosetta07:54
froudy07:54
mdkewe will be getting the po files from rosetta and committing them07:54
froudy07:54
mdkewhat I did last release was to rename de.po to aboutubuntu-de.po07:54
mdkeetc07:54
froudy07:54
mdkebefore committing07:54
mdkethe only thing that needs to be done is for the existing translations in trunk to be uploaded to rosetta, once. This can /should be done manually07:55
froudI will change script to create name-de.xml from de.po07:55
mdkefroud, brilliant07:55
froudyes07:55
mdkethat is all needs to be done afaics07:56
froudyes trunk is easy07:56
mdkeok good07:56
mdkeshall we move to hoary now?07:56
froudy07:56
mdkeagain what is proposed is the manual committing of po files from rosetta07:56
froudy07:57
mdkeconvertion to xml, upload to hoary archive07:57
froudy07:57
mdkeok your turn07:57
mdkewhat are the difficulties we might encounter07:57
froudif we commit es.po we will now have name-es.po and es.po07:57
froudto keep integrity we need to keep naming conv07:58
mdkewhat is wrong with committing name-es.po07:58
froudso before commit we mv nn.po to name-nn.po07:58
froudthen we update the current make07:58
froudhoary one07:59
froudif we do this we will be ok07:59
froudthen enrico must update debs07:59
mdkewe need to get enrico involved07:59
mdkeyuh07:59
froudyep07:59
mdkewhat are his movements atm?07:59
froudsomewhere on planet earth07:59
froudthis is why I lik eto automate stuff :-)07:59
froudlong story of experience08:00
mdkeyeah i understand08:00
froudno single person is a point of failure08:00
froudprovided that directory paths dont change and filename conv is kept we r ok08:00
froudbut make file needs update and so does deb08:00
froudanyway we look at it08:01
mdkewell at the moment we have no updated po files to worry about08:01
froudbecuase at present they do not know about these new locos08:01
mdkeoh right08:01
froudcorrect, but if say we get a pt quickguide then we have aproblem08:01
mdkeyeah08:02
froudat present we only have fr08:02
mdkeok08:02
froudand just today a loco wanted to make pt08:02
mdkecarlos is putting the quickguide in rosetta today so maybe we will get more08:02
froudprovided that the loco stuff is not forever and in buckets we can manage08:02
mdkefroud, so you think that maybe we can deal08:02
froudwe can deal08:03
froudas we have discussed here08:03
mdkei will try and write up a report of this discussion08:03
froudbut we must be sure not to commit hoary to trunk08:03
mdkeabsolutey08:03
mdkel08:03
froudone mor ething08:03
mdkeshoot08:04
froudwhen we have new po in tag08:04
carlosQuick Guide has 534 messages, right?08:04
mdkecarlos, something like that08:04
froudwe must then merge that update to trunk08:04
mdkefroud, hmmmmmmm08:04
froudit is easy if we have no po08:04
carlosthe rename and the import was done in our development server, I hope it will be also done in the public server in one hour or so08:04
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froudbut if there is a po we now have to resolve conflicts08:05
mdkefroud, can't it just be replaced?08:05
mdkewith the newer one08:05
carlosafter that, I will do the .po import08:05
mdkecarlos, gracias08:05
carlosmdke: de nada08:05
carlos:-P08:05
mdkecarlos, what po's are you importing?08:05
carlosmdke: will import the ones that are in hoary's archive08:05
froudcarlos we have no po file to import08:05
carlosubuntu-docs_1.0-208:06
froudthey should be in rostetta already08:06
froudno?08:06
mdkefroud, no they are not because of the naming issue08:06
froudAh ok08:06
carlosfroud: no, I need to fix the name so they land into rosetta08:06
carlos:-)08:06
mdkecarlos, that is very cool thanks08:06
froudooh this is now mesy08:06
froudmdke: carlos is changing names but we are not in tag08:07
froudoh no it is ok08:07
mdkefroud, carlos will be changing names just to import to rosetta08:07
carlosfroud: the rename will only affect Rosetta, don't worry08:07
froudyes08:07
mdkei feel totally drained ;)08:07
carlos:-P08:08
froudhas that problem08:08
froudmdke: new po files must be merged to trunk08:08
froudmdke: new po files in tags must be merged to trunk08:08
froudmdke: no problem when new08:08
froudmdke: problem when update08:09
mdkehang on a tic08:09
mdkei am being slow maybe:08:09
froudmdke: conflicts will occur08:09
froudok08:09
mdke1. what is the reason they need to be merged to trunk08:09
mdke2. if they do, can't the updates ones just overwrite the old ones08:09
froudmdke: why have it only in tag08:09
froudmdke: providing the one in trunk is has no breezy info08:10
mdkefroud, because for breezy, translation will be done in rosetta (hopefully)08:10
froudwhat when you have overlap08:10
mdkehmmm08:10
froudpeople could keep making translations of qg for 12 months08:10
mdkeyeah i take your point08:11
froudthere are enough langs08:11
mdkewe have a problem08:11
froudnot really08:11
froudjust overhead08:11
mdkewhen rosetta opens to breezy, the po files will not get uploaded automatically unless they have that naming pattern we've talked about08:11
froudthatis fine08:11
mdkeyeah?08:11
froudok lets take it slow08:12
mdkeok08:12
froud1. in tag we get a new po08:12
mdkeyes08:12
froud2. in tag we make new xml08:12
mdkey08:12
froud3. in tag we update make and build08:12
mdkey08:12
froud4. we check in trunk if po exists08:13
mdkek08:13
froud5. if exists merge to trunk08:13
froudopps08:13
froud5. in not exists, we merge to trunk08:13
froud6. if exists we diff08:13
mdkecan't it be overwritten rather than diffed?08:13
froudcheck the diff resolve conflicts08:14
froudno08:14
froudif po in trunk is breezy08:14
froudthen08:14
froudit may contain updates for breezy08:14
mdkebut the po's in trunk will be hoary, because they will be those left over, won't they?08:15
froudif delta is same msgid as in trunk we have a conflict08:15
mdkealthough the english versions will have changed08:15
froudeng changes, so does pot08:15
froudpot changes uploads to rose08:15
froudpo comes back to trunk08:15
froudinterim po comes for hoary08:15
froudsame file different version08:16
mdkehang on08:16
froudmust merge carefiully08:16
mdkei don't get this stage: froud pot changes uploads to rose08:16
froudok sect 1, 2, 308:16
mdkeoh you mean breezy rosetta08:16
mdkeyeah sorry08:16
=== mdke slaps himself
froudok consider it again08:17
froudsect1, 2, 3 in trunk changes08:17
froudsect 4,5, 6 dis not08:17
froudsay each sect is 1 msgid08:17
froudnow somebody takes hoary creates new po08:18
froudbut we alsready have po for breezy back from rosetta08:18
mdkehang on i'm not following you08:18
froudnow 456 is good08:18
mdkeyou need to use a bit fuller language08:18
froudbut 123 is problem08:18
froudok08:19
mdkewhat does "froud now somebody takes hoary creates new po" mean08:19
froudthis is hard I try again08:19
froud2 paragraphs08:20
froudfor breezy we update 108:20
mdkey08:20
froudthe second remains unchanged as it was for hoary08:20
mdke?08:20
froudwe sent a pot file for breezy08:20
mdkeoh sorry yes08:20
froudand got back a es.po08:20
mdkefrom rosetta?08:21
froudpara 1 is new08:21
mdkeright08:21
froudyes08:21
froudpara 2 is same as hoary08:21
froudso in hoary and  breezypo files the diffence is para 108:21
mdkey08:21
mdkeyes08:22
froudok now comes a typo08:22
froudin para 208:22
froudin hoary08:22
froudthe same typo is in breezy08:22
mdkeyes08:23
froudwe want to fix breezy08:23
mdkeyes08:23
froudwe merge changes from hoary to breezy08:23
froudwhat is the difference08:23
froudpara 1 + typo08:23
mdkeyes08:23
froudso what will happen is we will end up with hoary para 1 being merged to breezy para 108:24
froudand now we have a conflict08:24
froudhe strings are not the same08:24
froudthe change in para 2 will apply without problem08:24
froudit is para 1 that is now the problem08:24
mdkethe typo correction is done in the xml file right?08:25
froudshould be in the po file08:25
mdkewhat po file?08:25
froudthe type was found in hoary08:25
froudit was changed in haory08:25
mdkei thought we have frozen hoary08:25
froudsay the loco mispelled a word08:25
mdkeoh you mean in the translation08:26
mdkehmmm08:26
froudas of now it is not08:26
froudsince we are acepting po files08:26
mdkefroud, well english is frozen i mean08:26
froudyes08:26
mdkeright I'm beginning to follow you08:26
froudgood now you ask08:26
froudwhy do we want a new po file from hoary in breezy08:27
froudif we did not have a po file in hoary chances are we dont have one for breezy08:27
mdkeyeah08:27
froudwe would like it for breezy08:27
froudbut our eng doc changed 10%08:28
mdkeyeah08:28
frouddo we expect locos to translate the 90% again08:28
froudno08:28
mdkeno08:28
mdkeso it needs to be uploaded to rosetta08:29
froudwe want the pot process to change the 10% in the pot file08:29
mdkes/uploaded/merged and uploaded08:29
froudthat way when we upload the pot to the rose08:29
froudthe locos see that the difference between the new pot an dthe old po is 10%08:30
froudthey loco the 10%08:30
mdkeyeah ok08:30
froudand we get new po08:30
mdkefroud, you have the patience of a saint08:30
froudwe make diff between old po and new po08:30
mdkethanks08:30
froudwe apply diff only08:30
mdkeisn't it possible to diff before uploading to rosetta?08:31
froudok so you understand the problem08:31
mdkeso that in rosetta it shows as 90% complete08:31
froudno the xml2pot does that08:31
mdkethey translate the remaining 10%, then we get it and commit08:31
froudwhen we xml2pot it only updates what has changed08:31
froudnot the whole pot file08:31
mdkethere is no problem updating the master pot file in rosetta, that will get updated when we upload to breezy archives08:32
froudxml2pot does does our merge for us08:32
froudwe send the whole pot to the rose08:32
froudbut rosetta sees that it is 10% new08:33
froud90% done08:33
froudwhy08:33
froudbecause of the old po files08:33
mdkeyes08:33
froudthe diff between the new po and existing po files in the rose is 10%08:33
mdkeyes08:33
mdkeerm08:34
mdkehang on08:34
froudnow we get back new po08:34
mdkeok yes08:34
froud10% diff to what we have in svn08:34
froudwe dont just copy over if 08:34
mdkewhy not?08:34
froudwe apply the diff08:34
froudwhen you do svn commit08:34
froudit compares the head with WC08:34
froudand sends the diff08:35
mdkeoh08:35
froudnot the whole file08:35
mdkeso if I was downloading new po files from rosetta, i would just replace them, then do svn commit, and it would be fine?08:35
froudyes, provding there are no changes in the wc po file08:36
froudwhich ther should not be08:36
froudsince we only accept po from rose08:36
froudbut when you commit you are applying the diff only08:36
mdkelet me just get this clear08:37
mdkei would get the new po from rose, do a cp to the relevant place in my working copy of svn, then commit, and that would be fine?08:37
froudcarry on I must put my kids to bed08:37
mdkeok08:37
froudyes, providing you have no changes from hoary that are in the delta08:38
froudotherwise a fix in hoary brough to breezy will be overwitten08:38
froudthat is why I suggest you diff first08:38
mdkehmm08:39
froudthen if no conflict do cp08:39
mdkeit would simplify things greatly if po files were only added to hoary/tag once08:39
froudif conflict first resolve08:39
mdkewouldn't it?08:39
froud:-)08:39
froudbrb08:39
mdkei'm serious: i suggest we only add po files to hoary/tag once. Not allowing for correction08:43
mdkeit is something of an achievement to get them in at all08:44
froudmdke: I forgot something08:44
froudlets say you update a typo in hoary po08:44
froudand you have a breezy po08:45
froudyou merge the fix to breezy08:45
froudyou are happy cause breezy is fixed08:45
froudnow somebody fixes breezy po in th erose08:45
froudrose08:45
froudyou get new copy08:46
froudcan you just do cp08:46
mdkeyeah this is too much08:46
froudno08:46
froudso you must upload fixed svn breezy po to th epose08:46
mdkei seriously think that we should just add po files to hoary once, and merge them to breezy once, and upload those to rosetta08:46
mdkeand not allow further correction in hoary08:46
froudit will not avoid you the problem08:47
mdkewhy?08:47
froudok I add new hoary po08:47
froudwe already have a new brezy po08:47
mdkewhy?08:47
mdkewhere from?08:48
froudwhat if two locos08:48
froudone takes hoary pot and on one takes breezy pot08:48
froudboth translate08:48
froudwe are happy for the hoary po08:48
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froudwe are happy for the breezy po08:48
mdkefroud, they can't take breezy po's08:48
froudfor how long?08:49
froudwhen they do does that mean we acept no new po files for hoary08:49
mdkefroud, the suggestion is for all breezy translation to be done in rosetta right?08:49
froudyes08:49
froudbut hoary is ongoing08:49
mdkefroud, so if we only accept hoary translations once, and don't permit corrections, the merge and upload to rosetta only needs to be done once right?08:50
mdkerather than all the time08:50
froudyes08:50
froudin theory08:50
froudbut are you gonna tell a guy he cant patch his hoary thing08:50
froudhe did the work08:51
froudit is his08:51
froudhe is entitled to path it08:51
mdkefroud, after we upload a translation to hoary, i think we can close any correction and say "please work on the version for breezy"08:51
froudyes itis better08:52
mdkeuhoh08:52
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froud:-) coffee08:52
froudbut you understand the problem08:52
froudthat is the main thing08:52
mdkeyeah i hope i do08:52
froudthat you are aware of the problems that now result08:53
froudbeing aware is half the problem solved08:53
mdkegiven these problems, what do you think08:53
froudleave it08:53
mdkei'm tempted to say leave it too08:53
froudlet it run 08:53
mdkelet what run?08:53
froudtake new and patches08:53
froudthe more hoary improves08:54
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froudthe more we can improve breezy08:54
mdkefroud, so despite the problems we've discussed, you are willing to try to allow translations to hoary?08:54
froudyes, because of the compound effect08:54
mdkeis it worth it?08:54
mdkehmm08:54
froudok slow08:55
froudguy runs hoary08:55
froudoh look a typo08:55
froudfixes it08:55
froudgives it to us or to rose08:55
froudwe get it in tags08:55
froudnice fix, oh we have it in breezy too08:55
froudlets fix breezy08:56
mdkei think its gonna get messy if we start fixing every typo in tags08:56
froudall hapy08:56
froudbut we must make sure to send po file back to rose08:56
mdkebetter to encourage people to work on rosetta/breezy 08:56
froudso now our source is inline with us08:56
froudmdke: we are upstream for rose08:56
mdkewhat do you mean by that08:57
froudif we get fixes to pot or po we puch it down stream08:57
froudthen the role reverses08:57
froudwe are downstream to rose08:57
froudthey push us changes08:57
froudwe must always ensure that we push changes before rose 08:58
froudthat way when we get back the po we get it back with our fix08:58
froudotherwise we are wasting our time merging fixes from hoary to breezy08:58
froudcause the new rose files will not hav ethe fix08:59
froudcoffee08:59
mdkelol08:59
mdkei'm afk for a while09:01
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froudmdke: do you work in a softwar ehouse09:04
froudor have you ever09:04
froudThink of it this way then09:04
froudwhen customer by large software it is expensive09:05
froudthey may upgrade every release or every other release or every thrid release09:05
froudin some cases the upgrade once in several years09:05
frouddeoending on the support contract the customer has with the software vendor, the vendor must continue to support the version they have09:06
froudso lets say the customer runs version 3 and finds a bug09:07
froudbut the vendors current shipping product is version 609:07
frouddo they not fix the customers problem when they are under contract09:08
froudthey must09:08
froudand they do09:08
froudbut when they do they also check v 4, 5, 6 to see if that bug was fixed in those versions09:09
froudif not they fix the bug in all versions 3 >09:09
froudthe compound effect is worth the overhead09:10
froudwhile working on grumpy we can concievably accept fixes to hoary09:12
mdkefroud, ok fair enough09:42
mdkefroud, i'm certainly willing to help where I can09:42
froudyou have been a great help with this already :-)09:42
froudthanks09:42
mdkenp09:42
mdkethank you for your patience09:42
froudno worries09:42
carlosmdke, froud: ubuntu-docs names fixed09:55
carloshttps://launchpad.ubuntu.com/distros/ubuntu/hoary/+sources/ubuntu-docs/+translations09:55
froudthnks carlos 09:55
mdkecarlos, gracias amigo09:55
carlosmdke, froud: In about 10 minutes, the quickguide should be uploaded (perhaps it will take more time, not sure, it depends on the load of the server)09:56
carlosso don't pay attention to the current content, it will be fixed as soon as the import is finished.09:56
mdkeok09:57
mdkeyou're writing over one of the releasenotes with the quickguide yes?09:57
mdkefroud, there is already a brazilian aboutubuntu that we can use when testing whether we are going to be successful in tags09:58
carlosmdke: yes09:58
froudmdke: lets do it no fear09:58
froudtrust svn09:58
froudhack the code09:58
mdke:)09:59
carlosmdke: the quickguide is in place now10:14
carlosand you have two strings already translated into german :-P10:14
frouddam that rose grows fast10:16
carlosfroud: it's from the release notes, I reused that potemplate and seems like you are sharing two strings in those .pot files10:17
carlos:-P10:17
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