but the front page displays an image [09:43] <jsgotangco> since the current title is an image, it becomes part of the navigation box below as well [09:43] <Burgundavia> no idea === _froud_ [~froud@ndn-165-147-115.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Skywind [~Skywind@218.94.37.185] has joined #ubuntu-doc === sivang [~sivang@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:51] <jsgotangco> hmm maybe a draft would work wonders for me [10:51] <froud-work> jsgotangco: you can have alt text but in our case the figure should show, otherwise I would say the thing is broken. [10:52] <jsgotangco> the image was ok i just want it to have a real title instead of the image being the <title> [10:52] <jsgotangco> im basing it on yelp anyway so its probably futile [10:53] <froud-work> <figure> [10:53] <froud-work> <title>...

=== boglot [~logbot@gw.workaround.org] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Kinnison [~dsilvers@haddenham.pepperfish.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === asw [~asw@node-423a728a.bos.onnet.us.uu.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === trickie [~chatzilla@CPE-61-9-137-188.vic.bigpond.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Kinnison [~dsilvers@haddenham.pepperfish.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === boglot [~logbot@gw.workaround.org] has joined #ubuntu-doc === asw [~asw@node-423a728a.bos.onnet.us.uu.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Kinnison [~dsilvers@haddenham.pepperfish.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [~corey@24.68.134.11] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:32] Burgundavia, hi [06:32] salut === Cturtle [~Cturtle__@194.178.121.114] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:57] African Greetings [07:57] hello [07:58] did you sleep well [07:58] I did [07:58] my sleeping schedule is messed though [07:58] I can imagine [07:59] I am going to go to bed in a few hours, so that I can wake up at a normal time tomorrow [07:59] I added an instal guide to the generic last night [07:59] say that\ [07:59] It's open for contributions [07:59] should cover both gubuntu and kubuntu [08:00] i noticed that [08:00] good call [08:00] elmo is on vacation for a week, so I will contact him after that to get my new key added [08:00] example of doc profiling if anyone is interested [08:00] Burgundavia: you can patch in the interim [08:02] sure [08:02] I aksed this question on kubuntu devel yesterday, got no answers, perhaps somebody here knows. [08:02] [20:01] what is standard install footprint of Kubuntu after first boot, in MB [08:02] [20:02] what is standard install footprint after first boot without kde (servermode), in MB [08:02] [20:02] under qemu kubuntu install footprint with kde is 1024 MB. Is this the expected size of the footprint on fixed media? [08:03] Hmm people seem to want to become celebrities [08:03] everyone wants to blog [08:03] well [08:03] ive been blogging eversince [08:04] but blogging for ubuntu isnt a goal [08:04] and how does it help [08:04] honest [08:04] no idea [08:04] who reads the blogs anyway [08:04] except people you know [08:04] I dunno, perhaps if you are Larry Elison [08:04] or Bill gates [08:05] maybe we're overreacting [08:05] i dunno [08:05] to make a blog successful you need to be of a specific profile that is intersting to people [08:05] we only have simple problems imo [08:05] yeah [08:06] seems like everyone has replied with +1 but they dont think it will have much impact [08:07] i wanted to refute that because at least we have emprical data whatever the outcome [08:07] I think the impact will be improved by advertising and knocking on people [08:08] if we put up a survey and tell no one it is not good [08:08] we must try to get it into the linux user groups [08:08] and our channels [08:09] you will be surprised what happens [08:09] you remember the document I wrote on installing Kubuntu from GNOME [08:09] yeah [08:09] I put it on my web site. No link from any other pages [08:10] in one month 8GB of trafic to it [08:10] wow [08:10] and all I did was post to our list and drop the link into 3 irc channels [08:11] i still think having the survey and results will help only because we have solid data that we can present [08:11] instead of having gut feeling decisions [08:11] in april that page got 182 hits [08:12] in march 270 [08:13] yes [08:14] based on a the stats from a simple install page, I think that we will get more hits than we know [08:14] If we get 400 hits it is a sample [08:15] froud, just go ahead with the survey, post a link in the list and the forums and it will just explode [08:15] well nobody has said no, they just feel it wont work [08:15] so I will go ahead [08:15] hmm right pardon my understanding of english [08:15] hope Mark or Mako responds [08:16] it would be good to get support at that level [08:16] I know mako will put it on ubuntu traffic [08:17] hmmm [08:17] i disagree on becoming a member only to be heard [08:17] doh [08:17] yeah I have a member page, but I am not really looking to become a celeb [08:18] what was intersting to me is how people picked up on the blog idea and changed subject [08:19] I have four responses about blogs and memberships and only three about the topic [08:20] one thing has been concerning me for awhile [08:20] enlighten me [08:21] it seems that people are not trully concerntrated on the documents and finding solutions [08:21] we have a small group of people who are active both in committing and idea formulating [08:22] good observation we look good in the lists though imo [08:22] well yes, but I wonder how to get others more active [08:22] froud, how about doing a gantt chart at least so we have targets and milestones, etc per document [08:22] and posting it on the wiki at least [08:23] like now, we're starting from nothing [08:23] yes that is an option, but it is hard to gantt without schedules [08:23] right that's what we need to know then right [08:23] my five phase model is kinda a rough milestone [08:24] jsgotangco: my real problem is that I am doing lots of pulling here [08:24] I would like to see more proactive people [08:25] people getting ideas [08:25] froud, i wish i can help more with this stuff but i am way over my head with regards to technical xml stuff i am catching up honestly [08:25] airing them in the group [08:25] and pushing them forward [08:25] jsgotangco: I understand that [08:26] my remarks are just general observations and feelings [08:26] they may be just my own and may be wrong [08:26] but speaking about it openly sometimes helps to confirm whether it is just me or a real problem [08:27] i think you're doing good i've joined here from zero and now know some stuff but not at the level of others [08:27] my problem is with the people who do know something [08:27] not only the xml [08:27] well ok that's a valid point [08:28] So far I have yet to see a person pickup a book and run with it [08:28] I would like to wake up one morn and find the user guide half complete [08:28] the admin guide looking good [08:29] the faq guide ported to hoary [08:29] I want to see a list of patches in th elist for aplication and that people have applied them, not just me [08:29] who leads this team anyway [08:29] ? [08:29] nobody leads [08:29] we are all equally empowered [08:30] perhaps that is part of the problem [08:30] perhaps that is why chaps like me are still not moving [08:30] the other problem I have is with our meeting yesterday [08:31] people sound enthusiastic [08:31] there is lots of talk [08:31] no action [08:31] we're good at that [08:31] there is also a disregard for the overhead in suggestions [08:32] people resort to manual solutions instead of thinking out the box [08:32] its natural [08:32] but I dont think wise [08:32] froud, just OT, can contain just text and stuff at the moment [08:32] our integration with the devels is not a monitor them thing [08:33] Model : (phrase|ulink|emphasis|keycap|guibutton|interface|quote|guimenuitem|guimenu|xref|application)* [08:33] These elements and text [08:34] I think if we use a monitor them approach with the devels that we remain an island [08:35] we need to be an integral part of development [08:35] docs should be seen as part of the product [08:35] at present this is not the mind set and we have to change that perception [08:36] its not easy, so we need touch points that are inline with their development process [08:36] well I guess I am now using the channel as my blog [08:37] I am concerned that the systems we put in place are hinging on single individuals [08:37] froud, would it be ok to copy stuff from gubuntu to kubuntu so i have an idea how the structure works [08:38] sure [08:38] comparing the tags seem to work for me for now [08:38] I dont think the systems we put in place should work this way, not in this environment [08:39] they should be open and accessible to anyone who cares [08:39] in my experience, people come and go from open projects [08:39] you mean the commit access thing and all? [08:39] in general [08:39] our systems must take this into consideration [08:40] lets say I leave [08:40] can people carry on [08:40] i truly doubt that [08:41] hey school run brb [08:41] ok [08:41] i got questions later [08:48] ok back [08:51] unfortunately, the current system has no backup if a documentor drops out [08:51] Ie, if I disappear [08:52] as an aside [08:52] I just say gnome-art just hit breezy [08:53] this allows people to browse art.gnome.art and download/install themes without going to the web [09:01] yes, and what is the people monitoring email lists drop out, the impact can be huge [09:01] Good morning [09:01] salut Kinnison [09:01] hihi burgerboi [09:06] froud, how do i commit an image [09:06] put it in the dir [09:06] svn add image.png [09:07] svn commit -m nomsg kubuntu-final.png --non-interactive [09:07] svn: Commit failed (details follow): [09:07] svn: '/home/jsg/DocProjects/ubuntu-docs/kde/images/C/kubuntu-final.png' is not under version control [09:07] error (1) [09:07] 'svn add kbuntu-final.png' [09:07] then commit up [09:08] ok thats it tnx [09:17] yelp sure does render stuff strangely [09:17] indeed [09:20] that is a wierd error [09:21] sometimes, I can simply run my mouse over an mp3 file and it will start playing [09:21] Nautilus is previewing the audio file [09:22] system | prefs | file manglement | preview [09:23] what?? [09:23] ok then [09:23] Kinnison, hmm, not sure if I like that one [09:23] s'been there for *ages* [09:24] it only happens sometimes [09:24] turn it off if you don't like it [09:24] I just did [09:24] It starts after a few seconds [09:24] So what you're thinking of as intermittent behaviour is probably just inconsistency in your wait periods [09:24] cool feature, but not enough visual feeback [09:26] yeah [09:26] What I don't like is that it doesn't seem to work for oggs [09:26] there is a bug in b.g about that [09:27] that is why I guess I never saw it [09:27] I rip to ogg === Kinnison nods [09:28] listening to www.thepartyparty.com [09:29] ff needs a new bookmark ui and idea [09:33] Burgundavia, are you familiar with [09:37] not really [09:37] what do you want o know? [09:38] is it possible to have an alt property for an image in xml [09:38] like text if the image doesn [09:38] load? [09:40] or how to tag certain words to be boldface in yelp [09:41] yes something like that [09:42] it would be easier to use but the front page displays an image [09:43] <jsgotangco> since the current title is an image, it becomes part of the navigation box below as well [09:43] <Burgundavia> no idea === _froud_ [~froud@ndn-165-147-115.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Skywind [~Skywind@218.94.37.185] has joined #ubuntu-doc === sivang [~sivang@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:51] <jsgotangco> hmm maybe a draft would work wonders for me [10:51] <froud-work> jsgotangco: you can have alt text but in our case the figure should show, otherwise I would say the thing is broken. [10:52] <jsgotangco> the image was ok i just want it to have a real title instead of the image being the <title> [10:52] <jsgotangco> im basing it on yelp anyway so its probably futile [10:53] <froud-work> <figure> [10:53] <froud-work> <title>... [10:53] [10:53] [10:53] [10:53] [10:53] [10:53] [10:53] [10:53] [10:54] oh ok so there's a mother node

[10:55] we call it parent [10:55] ;-0 [10:55] whats the difference between and just [10:56] figure Model : (blockinfo?,(title,titleabbrev?),(literallayout|programlisting|programlistingco|screen|screenco|screenshot|synopsis|cmdsynopsis|funcsynopsis|classsynopsis|fieldsynopsis|constructorsynopsis|destructorsynopsis|methodsynopsis|address|blockquote|graphic|graphicco|mediaobject|mediaobjectco|informalequation|informalexample|informalfigure|informaltable|indexterm|beginpage|link|olink|ulink)+) [10:56] inlinemediaobject [10:56] end of mediaobject.attlist [10:56] end of mediaobject.module [10:56] doc:An inline media object (video, audio, image, and so on). [10:56] InlineMediaObject contains a set of alternative graphical objects. In DocBook V3.1, three types of external graphical objects are defined: VideoObjects,AudioObjects, and ImageObjects. Additional textual descriptions may be provided with TextObjects. [10:56] Category: Graphics [10:57] Inline to the para [10:57] hmm where do you get that? [10:57] from the DTD [10:58] ok im only using kate so im a bit limited but im catching up [10:58] mediaobject causes a break in the line [10:58] kate is good [11:00] ok i will just make drafts first before getting into dtd details [11:00] i will be more productive with that [11:00] this may be of help [11:00] http://www.sagehill.net/livedtd/docbookxml42/index.html [11:00] you can download it and install it [11:02] sounds good ill do that [11:26] bbl === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === abelli [~john@11153ad646f66fd8.node.tor] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:38] hi abelli [12:40] jsgotangco: ciao [12:40] jsgotangco: how is life treating you [12:40] ? [12:41] bad [12:41] but life is still good [12:41] we have our ups and downs [12:41] im at down at the moment [12:43] huh right, im sorry for this. [12:44] its ok [12:44] i have been busy doing kubuntu stuff at the moment [12:45] ohhh i see kde, here's the problem. [12:47] ? [12:48] problem? [12:50] jsgotangco: huh have you got queries disabled? [12:51] jsgotangco: sorry ... it was a stupid joke , :) [12:53] i don't get it is this some western joke? [12:54] yes sorry. [12:54] some particular joke, made by a senseless italian brain. [12:56] ciao andrea. come va? [12:59] Kinnison: ciao bene grazie, e tu? [01:00] bene, bene [01:08] ok see you guys later === abelli_ [~john@27827b641cc59735.node.tor] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jjesse [~jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [DaWorm@157-nas1.dial-pool.digitelone.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:35] froud-work, busy? [04:35] for you I have a minute [04:35] wow [04:35] waz up [04:35] is it ok if i mess up your KDE quick guide [04:36] Sure go for it I have nothing in that doc [04:36] hack away [04:36] give it your best shot [04:36] i've made some changes to it just some drafts and stuff i thought it would be much better to do stuff in Kubuntu for now since Gubuntu is so cloudy at the moment [04:37] well ok i just renamed it to Kubuntu Kwick Guide for one [04:37] ick [04:37] sorry [04:37] no that is cool [04:37] let your ideas flow [04:38] Burgundavia, its just drafts Kubuntu has nothing at the moment besides im learning this at the same time so bear with me [04:38] if it renders with yelp its fine with me for now [04:38] take into consideration the chats we have had recently about quick tour or quick guide [04:38] power to you dude [04:39] jsgotangco, sorry, blanket response to k-labelled stuff [04:39] kubuntu kwick kuide (KKK) [04:39] im not messing up with gnome stuff till after UDU [04:40] jsgotangco: go for it nobody else is you are totally empowered to do what you think. At this stage everything should be in flux, even the gubuntu stuff [04:40] so is the case after every release [04:40] it is only near release that we need to settle down [04:41] take into consideration the talks we have had [04:41] Burgundavia pointed us to some nice examples [04:41] consider them also [04:41] im just doing a tree at the moment and experimented on yelp [04:43] somebody with more i18n experience answer the guy on the list? [04:44] hmmm [04:44] carlos said before all i18n should be rosetta [04:44] right? [04:48] ok ill answer this [04:51] jsgotangco: they can do it if our pots have not already come in from the packaging yet. I dunno if Rosetta has done that, mdke should check. [04:52] If Rosetta has the packages it will find the pots [04:52] then they should use Rosetta [04:52] i was about to say that [04:52] I dunno if Rosetta is doing what it should the way we discussed it, so if not the they should use svn [04:53] we dont want to stop them because rosetta is stuffed [04:53] right [04:53] jsgotangco: cool thanks dude [04:54] wassup? [04:54] mdke: are th epots from our package in rosetta yet? [04:55] as we understand that is what will happen [04:55] or does happen [04:55] loco team wants to do pt [04:55] froud-work, the situation has not changed to my knowledge [04:55] there are still two copies of aboutubuntu and two of release notes [04:55] i'll double check [04:55] and does not know to use svn or rosetta [04:55] i told them if its available in rosetta, do it in rosetta, if not we'll commit their po [04:56] i will answer if possible [04:56] just checking email now [04:56] speak to jsgotangco he is answering [04:56] froud-work, nicely handled with that deka guy [04:56] huh? [04:56] Re: how to install programs and pluggins in one place [04:57] ah ok [04:58] jsgotangco: no top posting dude [04:58] ok yeah i know that portugese guy [04:58] the quickguide isn't in rosetta iirc [04:58] froud-work, ok thanks for reminding [04:58] so th esystem of rosetta getting form our packages is broke [04:58] not good [04:59] I tought it was meant to be fire and forget [04:59] froud-work, don't think there is a system man [04:59] check out this email from carlos on the rosetta list [05:00] http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/rosetta-users/2005-April/000423.html [05:00] the last part is relevant to docteam [05:01] jeezz [05:01] mdke: unless we resolve issues like this we will have enormous overheads and get no work done [05:01] i'm gonna have a chat with him now [05:01] thanks [05:01] this is a major issue [05:01] whats the use of translation if they dont do it in rosetta [05:01] its supposed to reduce overhead [05:02] people think in terms of i10n and not i18n [05:02] ? [05:02] localization and translation [05:02] $1 = interface [05:02] $2 = documents [05:03] im not following you [05:03] i don't get it [05:03] i18n stands for internationalization [05:03] what is i10n? [05:03] localization [05:03] when they designed rosetta they had localization in mind [05:03] not translation [05:03] hmm [05:03] there is a big diff [05:03] explain further please [05:04] carlos mdke: Can we delay it a bit, I want to answer all mails I have about that (and other user support ones) [05:04] mdke carlos, yes of course, lemme know when? [05:04] carlos mdke: sure [05:04] because the english for me seems the same [05:04] localization is releted to the interface [05:04] ahh [05:04] interface=gnome/kde [05:04] menus etc [05:04] guilabels [05:04] etc [05:04] hmmm [05:04] jsgotangco, did you say you had replied to joao? [05:04] thatis i10n [05:04] yes now i get it [05:05] froud-work, rosetta is designed for translation in that case ;) [05:05] thats why i was doing abiword and its all menu stuff [05:05] jsgotangco, it should have all the parts, error messages etc [05:05] yeah [05:05] i get it now [05:05] but docs are free prose and presnet challenges [05:06] so that means i18n is not rosetta's goal [05:06] well as far as aboutubuntu and releasenotes are concerned, they are in rosetta, albeit with 2 copies [05:06] and all is translatable [05:06] yes, not without problems [05:06] but majority in rosetta are apps and that explains it so [05:06] i18n was an after thought [05:06] that's why in hoary, you localize apps [05:07] always is [05:07] ok i learned something new again [05:07] people often get confused between localization and translation [05:07] froud-work, so are you suggesting we don't use rosetta for translation of our docs? [05:07] the call then the same thing [05:07] it is an option [05:07] mdke: no we want to [05:07] froud-work, obviously it would be desirable [05:08] just wish they would make it work [05:08] it would be much easier for us if our docs are in rosetta as well [05:08] I must work now [05:08] ok [05:08] froud-work, thanks again [05:08] we just need to forward them the pot file afaik [05:08] i will be sleeping soon [05:08] np [05:09] i'll ping you guys if carlos calls [05:09] ok im going to sleep see you guys later [05:09] k [05:09] jsgotangco, did you answer joao? [05:09] if not i'll do it [05:09] mdke, i did but before reading carlos' email [05:09] i told him if its available in rosetta, do it in rosetta, if not, we'll commit [05:10] jsgotangco, i didn't get the mail [05:10] its sent to ubuntu-doc as well [05:10] hmm [05:10] ok it will be here soon then [05:11] yep its alrady on archive [05:11]