[06:32] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, hi
[06:32] <Burgundavia> salut
[07:57] <froud> African Greetings
[07:57] <Burgundavia> hello
[07:58] <froud> did you sleep well
[07:58] <Burgundavia> I did
[07:58] <Burgundavia> my sleeping schedule is messed though
[07:58] <froud> I can imagine
[07:59] <Burgundavia> I am going to go to bed in a few hours, so that I can wake up at a normal time tomorrow
[07:59] <froud> I added an instal guide to the generic last night
[07:59] <Burgundavia> say that\
[07:59] <froud> It's open for contributions
[07:59] <froud> should cover both gubuntu and kubuntu
[08:00] <jsgotangco> i noticed that
[08:00] <jsgotangco> good call
[08:00] <Burgundavia> elmo is on vacation for a week, so I will contact him after that to get my new key added
[08:00] <froud> example of doc profiling if anyone is interested
[08:00] <froud> Burgundavia: you can patch in the interim
[08:02] <jsgotangco> sure
[08:02] <froud> I aksed this question on kubuntu devel yesterday, got no answers, perhaps somebody here knows.
[08:02] <froud> [20:01]  <froud> what is standard install footprint of Kubuntu after first boot, in MB
[08:02] <froud> [20:02]  <froud> what is standard install footprint after first boot without kde (servermode), in MB
[08:02] <froud> [20:02]  <froud> under qemu kubuntu install footprint with kde is 1024 MB. Is this the expected size of the footprint on fixed media?
[08:03] <froud> Hmm people seem to want to become celebrities
[08:03] <froud> everyone wants to blog
[08:03] <jsgotangco> well
[08:03] <jsgotangco> ive been blogging eversince
[08:04] <jsgotangco> but blogging for ubuntu isnt a goal
[08:04] <froud> and how does it help
[08:04] <jsgotangco> honest
[08:04] <jsgotangco> no idea
[08:04] <jsgotangco> who reads the blogs anyway
[08:04] <jsgotangco> except people you know
[08:04] <froud> I dunno, perhaps if you are Larry Elison
[08:04] <froud> or Bill gates
[08:05] <jsgotangco> maybe we're overreacting
[08:05] <jsgotangco> i dunno
[08:05] <froud> to make a blog successful you need to be of a specific profile that is intersting to people
[08:05] <jsgotangco> we only have simple problems imo
[08:05] <froud> yeah
[08:06] <froud> seems like everyone has replied with +1 but they dont think it will have much impact
[08:07] <jsgotangco> i wanted to refute that because at least we have emprical data whatever the outcome
[08:07] <froud> I think the impact will be improved by advertising and knocking on people
[08:08] <froud> if we put up a survey and tell no one it is not good
[08:08] <froud> we must try to get it into the linux user groups
[08:08] <froud> and our channels
[08:09] <froud> you will be surprised what happens
[08:09] <froud> you remember the document I wrote on installing Kubuntu from GNOME
[08:09] <jsgotangco> yeah
[08:09] <froud> I put it on my web site. No link from any other pages
[08:10] <froud> in one month 8GB of trafic to it
[08:10] <jsgotangco> wow
[08:10] <froud> and all I did was post to our list and drop the link into 3 irc channels
[08:11] <jsgotangco> i still think having the survey and results will help only because we have solid data that we can present
[08:11] <jsgotangco> instead of having gut feeling decisions
[08:11] <froud> in april that page got 182 hits
[08:12] <froud> in march 270
[08:13] <froud> yes
[08:14] <froud> based on a the stats from a simple install page, I think that we will get more hits than we know
[08:14] <froud> If we get 400 hits it is a sample
[08:15] <jsgotangco> froud, just go ahead with the survey, post a link in the list and the forums and it will just explode
[08:15] <froud> well nobody has said no, they just feel it wont work
[08:15] <froud> so I will go ahead
[08:15] <jsgotangco> hmm right pardon my understanding of english
[08:15] <froud> hope Mark or Mako responds
[08:16] <froud> it would be good to get support at that level
[08:16] <froud> I know mako will put it on ubuntu traffic
[08:17] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[08:17] <jsgotangco> i disagree on becoming a member only to be heard
[08:17] <jsgotangco> doh
[08:17] <froud> yeah I have a member page, but I am not really looking to become a celeb
[08:18] <froud> what was intersting to me is how people picked up on the blog idea and changed subject
[08:19] <froud> I have four responses about blogs and memberships and only three about the topic
[08:20] <froud> one thing has been concerning me for awhile
[08:20] <jsgotangco> enlighten me
[08:21] <froud> it seems that people are not trully concerntrated on the documents and finding solutions
[08:21] <froud> we have a small group of people who are active both in committing and idea formulating
[08:22] <jsgotangco> good observation we look good in the lists though imo
[08:22] <froud> well yes, but I wonder how to get others more active
[08:22] <jsgotangco> froud, how about doing a gantt chart at least so we have targets and milestones, etc per document
[08:22] <jsgotangco> and posting it on the wiki at least
[08:23] <jsgotangco> like now, we're starting from nothing
[08:23] <froud> yes that is an option, but it is hard to gantt without schedules
[08:23] <jsgotangco> right that's what we need to know then right
[08:23] <froud> my five phase model is kinda a rough milestone
[08:24] <froud> jsgotangco: my real problem is that I am doing lots of pulling here
[08:24] <froud> I would like to see more proactive people
[08:25] <froud> people getting ideas
[08:25] <jsgotangco> froud, i wish i can help more with this stuff but i am way over my head with regards to technical xml stuff i am catching up honestly
[08:25] <froud> airing them in the group
[08:25] <froud> and pushing them forward
[08:25] <froud> jsgotangco: I understand that
[08:26] <froud> my remarks are just general observations and feelings
[08:26] <froud> they may be just my own and may be wrong
[08:26] <froud> but speaking about it openly sometimes helps to confirm whether it is just me or a real problem
[08:27] <jsgotangco> i think you're doing good i've joined here from zero and now know some stuff but not at the level of others
[08:27] <froud> my problem is with the people who do know something
[08:27] <froud> not only the xml
[08:27] <jsgotangco> well ok that's a valid point
[08:28] <froud> So far I have yet to see a person pickup a book and run with it
[08:28] <froud> I would like to wake up one morn and find the user guide half complete
[08:28] <froud> the admin guide looking good
[08:29] <froud> the faq guide ported to hoary
[08:29] <froud> I want to see a list of patches in th elist for aplication and that people have applied them, not just me
[08:29] <jsgotangco> who leads this team anyway
[08:29] <jsgotangco> ?
[08:29] <froud> nobody leads
[08:29] <froud> we are all equally empowered
[08:30] <froud> perhaps that is part of the problem
[08:30] <jsgotangco> perhaps that is why chaps like me are still not moving
[08:30] <froud> the other problem I have is with our meeting yesterday
[08:31] <froud> people sound enthusiastic
[08:31] <froud> there is lots of talk
[08:31] <froud> no action
[08:31] <jsgotangco> we're good at that
[08:31] <froud> there is also a disregard for the overhead in suggestions
[08:32] <froud> people resort to manual solutions instead of thinking out the box
[08:32] <froud> its natural
[08:32] <froud> but I dont think wise
[08:32] <jsgotangco> froud, just OT,  can <para> contain just text and stuff at the moment
[08:32] <froud> our integration with the devels is not a monitor them thing
[08:33] <froud> Model : (phrase|ulink|emphasis|keycap|guibutton|interface|quote|guimenuitem|guimenu|xref|application)*
[08:33] <froud> These elements and text
[08:34] <froud> I think if we use a monitor them approach with the devels that we remain an island
[08:35] <froud> we need to be an integral part of development
[08:35] <froud> docs should be seen as part of the product
[08:35] <froud> at present this is not the mind set and we have to change that perception
[08:36] <froud> its not easy, so we need touch points that are inline with their development process
[08:36] <froud> well I guess I am now using the channel as my blog
[08:37] <froud> I am concerned that the systems we put in place are hinging on single individuals
[08:37] <jsgotangco> froud, would it be ok to copy stuff from gubuntu to kubuntu so i have an idea how the structure works
[08:38] <froud> sure
[08:38] <jsgotangco> comparing the tags seem to work for me for now
[08:38] <froud> I dont think the systems we put in place should work this way, not in this environment
[08:39] <froud> they should be open and accessible to anyone who cares
[08:39] <froud> in my experience, people come and go from open projects
[08:39] <jsgotangco> you mean the commit access thing and all?
[08:39] <froud> in general
[08:39] <froud> our systems must take this into consideration
[08:40] <froud> lets say I leave
[08:40] <froud> can people carry on
[08:40] <jsgotangco> i truly doubt that
[08:41] <froud> hey school run brb
[08:41] <jsgotangco> ok
[08:41] <jsgotangco> i got questions later
[08:48] <froud> ok back
[08:51] <Burgundavia> unfortunately, the current system has no backup if a documentor drops out
[08:51] <Burgundavia> Ie, if I disappear
[08:52] <Burgundavia> as an aside
[08:52] <Burgundavia> I just say gnome-art just hit breezy
[08:53] <Burgundavia> this allows people to browse art.gnome.art and download/install themes without going to the web
[09:01] <froud> yes, and what is the people monitoring email lists drop out, the impact can be huge
[09:01] <Kinnison> Good morning
[09:01] <Burgundavia> salut Kinnison 
[09:01] <Kinnison> hihi burgerboi
[09:06] <jsgotangco> froud, how do i commit an image
[09:06] <Burgundavia> put it in the dir
[09:06] <Burgundavia> svn add image.png
[09:07] <jsgotangco> svn commit -m nomsg kubuntu-final.png --non-interactive 
[09:07] <jsgotangco> svn: Commit failed (details follow):
[09:07] <jsgotangco> svn: '/home/jsg/DocProjects/ubuntu-docs/kde/images/C/kubuntu-final.png' is not under version control
[09:07] <jsgotangco> error (1)
[09:07] <Burgundavia> 'svn add kbuntu-final.png'
[09:07] <Burgundavia> then commit up
[09:08] <jsgotangco> ok thats it tnx
[09:17] <jsgotangco> yelp sure does render stuff strangely
[09:17] <Burgundavia> indeed
[09:20] <Burgundavia> that is a wierd error
[09:21] <Burgundavia> sometimes, I can simply run my mouse over an mp3 file and it will start playing
[09:21] <Kinnison> Nautilus is previewing the audio file
[09:22] <Kinnison> system | prefs | file manglement | preview
[09:23] <Burgundavia> what??
[09:23] <Burgundavia> ok then
[09:23] <Burgundavia> Kinnison, hmm, not sure if I like that one
[09:23] <Kinnison> s'been there for *ages*
[09:24] <Burgundavia> it only happens sometimes
[09:24] <Kinnison> turn it off if you don't like it
[09:24] <Burgundavia> I just did
[09:24] <Kinnison> It starts after a few seconds
[09:24] <Kinnison> So what you're thinking of as intermittent behaviour is probably just inconsistency in your wait periods
[09:24] <Burgundavia> cool feature, but not enough visual feeback
[09:26] <Kinnison> yeah
[09:26] <Kinnison> What I don't like is that it doesn't seem to work for oggs
[09:26] <Burgundavia> there is a bug in b.g about that
[09:27] <Burgundavia> that is why I guess I never saw it
[09:27] <Burgundavia> I rip to ogg
[09:28] <Burgundavia> listening to www.thepartyparty.com
[09:29] <Burgundavia> ff needs a new bookmark ui and idea
[09:33] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, are you familiar with <imagedata>
[09:37] <Burgundavia> not really
[09:37] <Burgundavia> what do you want o know?
[09:38] <jsgotangco> is it possible to have an alt property for an image in xml
[09:38] <Burgundavia> like text if the image doesn
[09:38] <Burgundavia> load?
[09:40] <jsgotangco> or how to tag certain words to be boldface in yelp
[09:41] <jsgotangco> yes something like that
[09:42] <jsgotangco> it would be easier to use <title> but the front page displays an image
[09:43] <jsgotangco> since the current title is an image, it becomes part of the navigation box below as well
[09:43] <Burgundavia> no idea
[10:51] <jsgotangco> hmm maybe a draft would work wonders for me
[10:51] <froud-work> jsgotangco: you can have alt text but in our case the figure should show, otherwise I would say the thing is broken.
[10:52] <jsgotangco> the image was ok i just want it to have a real title instead of the image being the <title>
[10:52] <jsgotangco> im basing it on yelp anyway so its probably futile

[10:53] <froud-work>             <title>...</title>
[10:53] <froud-work>             <screenshot>
[10:53] <froud-work>                 <mediaobject>
[10:53] <froud-work>                     <imageobject>
[10:53] <froud-work>                         <imagedata fileref="../../images/&language;/inst0.png" format="PNG"/>
[10:53] <froud-work>                     </imageobject>
[10:53] <froud-work>                 </mediaobject>
[10:53] <froud-work>             </screenshot>
[10:53] <froud-work>         </figure>
[10:54] <jsgotangco> oh ok so there's a mother node <figure>
[10:55] <froud-work> we call it parent
[10:55] <froud-work> ;-0
[10:55] <jsgotangco> whats the difference between <inlinemediaobject> and just <mediaobject>
[10:56] <froud-work> figure Model : (blockinfo?,(title,titleabbrev?),(literallayout|programlisting|programlistingco|screen|screenco|screenshot|synopsis|cmdsynopsis|funcsynopsis|classsynopsis|fieldsynopsis|constructorsynopsis|destructorsynopsis|methodsynopsis|address|blockquote|graphic|graphicco|mediaobject|mediaobjectco|informalequation|informalexample|informalfigure|informaltable|indexterm|beginpage|link|olink|ulink)+)
[10:56] <froud-work> inlinemediaobject
[10:56] <froud-work> end of mediaobject.attlist
[10:56] <froud-work> end of mediaobject.module
[10:56] <froud-work> doc:An inline media object (video, audio, image, and so on).
[10:56] <froud-work> InlineMediaObject contains a set of alternative graphical objects. In DocBook V3.1, three types of external graphical objects are defined: VideoObjects,AudioObjects, and ImageObjects. Additional textual descriptions may be provided with TextObjects.
[10:56] <froud-work> Category: Graphics
[10:57] <froud-work> Inline to the para
[10:57] <jsgotangco> hmm where do you get that?
[10:57] <froud-work> from the DTD
[10:58] <jsgotangco> ok im only using kate so im a bit limited but im catching up
[10:58] <froud-work> mediaobject causes a break in the line
[10:58] <froud-work> kate is good
[11:00] <jsgotangco> ok i will just make drafts first before getting into dtd details
[11:00] <jsgotangco> i will be more productive with that
[11:00] <froud-work> this may be of help
[11:00] <froud-work> http://www.sagehill.net/livedtd/docbookxml42/index.html
[11:00] <froud-work> you can download it and install it
[11:02] <jsgotangco> sounds good ill do that
[11:26] <jsgotangco> bbl
[12:38] <jsgotangco> hi abelli
[12:40] <abelli> jsgotangco: ciao
[12:40] <abelli> jsgotangco: how is life treating you
[12:40] <abelli> ?
[12:41] <jsgotangco> bad
[12:41] <jsgotangco> but life is still good
[12:41] <jsgotangco> we have our ups and downs
[12:41] <jsgotangco> im at down at the moment
[12:43] <abelli> huh right, im sorry for this.
[12:44] <jsgotangco> its ok
[12:44] <jsgotangco> i have been busy doing kubuntu stuff at the moment
[12:45] <abelli> ohhh i see kde, here's the problem.
[12:47] <jsgotangco> ?
[12:48] <jsgotangco> problem?
[12:50] <abelli> jsgotangco: huh have you got queries disabled?
[12:51] <abelli> jsgotangco: sorry ... it was a stupid joke , :)
[12:53] <jsgotangco> i don't get it is this some western joke?
[12:54] <abelli> yes sorry.
[12:54] <abelli> some particular joke, made by a senseless italian brain.
[12:56] <Kinnison> ciao andrea. come va?
[12:59] <abelli> Kinnison: ciao bene grazie, e tu?
[01:00] <Kinnison> bene, bene
[01:08] <jsgotangco> ok see you guys later
[04:35] <jsgotangco> froud-work, busy?
[04:35] <froud-work> for you I have a minute
[04:35] <jsgotangco> wow
[04:35] <froud-work> waz up
[04:35] <jsgotangco> is it ok if i mess up your KDE quick guide
[04:36] <froud-work> Sure go for it I have nothing in that doc
[04:36] <froud-work> hack away
[04:36] <froud-work> give it your best shot
[04:36] <jsgotangco> i've made some changes to it just some drafts and stuff i thought it would be much better to do stuff in Kubuntu for now since Gubuntu is so cloudy at the moment
[04:37] <jsgotangco> well ok i just renamed it to Kubuntu Kwick Guide for one
[04:37] <Burgundavia> ick
[04:37] <Burgundavia> sorry
[04:37] <froud-work> no that is cool
[04:37] <froud-work> let your ideas flow
[04:38] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, its just drafts Kubuntu has nothing at the moment besides im learning this at the same time so bear with me
[04:38] <jsgotangco> if it renders with yelp its fine with me for now
[04:38] <froud-work> take into consideration the chats we have had recently about quick tour or quick guide
[04:38] <froud-work> power to you dude
[04:39] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, sorry, blanket response to k-labelled stuff
[04:39] <froud-work> kubuntu kwick kuide (KKK)
[04:39] <jsgotangco> im not messing up with gnome stuff till after UDU
[04:40] <froud-work> jsgotangco: go for it nobody else is you are totally empowered to do what you think. At this stage everything should be in flux, even the gubuntu stuff
[04:40] <froud-work> so is the case after every release
[04:40] <froud-work> it is only near release that we need to settle down
[04:41] <froud-work> take into consideration the talks we have had
[04:41] <froud-work> Burgundavia pointed us to some nice examples
[04:41] <froud-work> consider them also
[04:41] <jsgotangco> im just doing a tree at the moment and experimented on yelp
[04:43] <Burgundavia> somebody with more i18n experience answer the guy on the list?
[04:44] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[04:44] <jsgotangco> carlos said before all i18n should be rosetta
[04:44] <jsgotangco> right?
[04:48] <jsgotangco> ok ill answer this
[04:51] <froud-work> jsgotangco: they can do it if our pots have not already come in from the packaging yet. I dunno if Rosetta has done that, mdke should check.
[04:52] <froud-work> If Rosetta has the packages it will find the pots
[04:52] <froud-work> then they should use Rosetta
[04:52] <jsgotangco> i was about to say that
[04:52] <froud-work> I dunno if Rosetta is doing what it should the way we discussed it, so if not the they should use svn
[04:53] <froud-work> we dont want to stop them because rosetta is stuffed
[04:53] <jsgotangco> right
[04:53] <froud-work> jsgotangco: cool thanks dude
[04:54] <mdke> wassup?
[04:54] <froud-work> mdke: are th epots from our package in rosetta yet?
[04:55] <froud-work> as we understand that is what will happen
[04:55] <froud-work> or does happen
[04:55] <froud-work> loco team wants to do pt
[04:55] <mdke> froud-work, the situation has not changed to my knowledge
[04:55] <mdke> there are still two copies of aboutubuntu and two of release notes
[04:55] <mdke> i'll double check
[04:55] <froud-work> and does not know to use svn or rosetta
[04:55] <jsgotangco> i told them if its available in rosetta, do it in rosetta, if not we'll commit their po
[04:56] <mdke> i will answer if possible
[04:56] <mdke> just checking email now
[04:56] <froud-work> speak to jsgotangco he is answering
[04:56] <mdke> froud-work, nicely handled with that deka guy
[04:56] <froud-work> huh?
[04:56] <mdke> Re: how to install programs and pluggins in one place
[04:57] <froud-work> ah ok
[04:58] <froud-work> jsgotangco: no top posting dude
[04:58] <mdke> ok yeah i know that portugese guy
[04:58] <mdke> the quickguide isn't in rosetta iirc
[04:58] <jsgotangco> froud-work, ok thanks for reminding
[04:58] <froud-work> so th esystem of rosetta getting form our packages is broke
[04:58] <froud-work> not good
[04:59] <froud-work> I tought it was meant to be fire and forget
[04:59] <mdke> froud-work, don't think there is a system man
[04:59] <mdke> check out this email from carlos on the rosetta list
[05:00] <mdke> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/rosetta-users/2005-April/000423.html
[05:00] <mdke> the last part is relevant to docteam
[05:01] <jsgotangco> jeezz
[05:01] <froud-work> mdke: unless we resolve issues like this we will have enormous overheads and get no work done
[05:01] <mdke> i'm gonna have a chat with him now
[05:01] <froud-work> thanks
[05:01] <mdke> this is a major issue
[05:01] <jsgotangco> whats the use of translation if they dont do it in rosetta
[05:01] <jsgotangco> its supposed to reduce overhead
[05:02] <froud-work> people think in terms of i10n and not i18n 
[05:02] <mdke> ?
[05:02] <froud-work> localization and translation
[05:02] <froud-work> $1 = interface
[05:02] <froud-work> $2 = documents
[05:03] <jsgotangco> im not following you
[05:03] <mdke> i don't get it
[05:03] <mdke> i18n stands for internationalization
[05:03] <mdke> what is i10n?
[05:03] <jsgotangco> localization
[05:03] <froud-work> when they designed rosetta they had localization in mind
[05:03] <froud-work> not translation
[05:03] <mdke> hmm
[05:03] <froud-work> there is a big diff
[05:03] <jsgotangco> explain further please
[05:04] <mdke> carlos mdke: Can we delay it a bit, I want  to answer all mails I have about that (and other user support ones)
[05:04] <mdke> mdke carlos, yes of course, lemme know when?
[05:04] <mdke> carlos mdke: sure
[05:04] <jsgotangco> because the english for me seems the same
[05:04] <froud-work> localization is releted to the interface
[05:04] <jsgotangco> ahh
[05:04] <jsgotangco> interface=gnome/kde
[05:04] <froud-work> menus etc
[05:04] <froud-work> guilabels
[05:04] <froud-work> etc
[05:04] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[05:04] <mdke> jsgotangco, did you say you had replied to joao?
[05:04] <froud-work> thatis i10n
[05:04] <jsgotangco> yes now i get it
[05:05] <mdke> froud-work, rosetta is designed for translation in that case ;)
[05:05] <jsgotangco> thats why i was doing abiword and its all menu stuff
[05:05] <mdke> jsgotangco, it should have all the parts, error messages etc
[05:05] <jsgotangco> yeah
[05:05] <jsgotangco> i get it now
[05:05] <froud-work> but docs are free prose and presnet challenges
[05:06] <jsgotangco> so that means i18n is not rosetta's goal
[05:06] <mdke> well as far as aboutubuntu and releasenotes are concerned, they are in rosetta, albeit with 2 copies
[05:06] <mdke> and all is translatable
[05:06] <froud-work> yes, not without problems
[05:06] <jsgotangco> but majority in rosetta are apps and that explains it so
[05:06] <froud-work> i18n was an after thought
[05:06] <jsgotangco> that's why in hoary, you localize apps
[05:07] <froud-work> always is
[05:07] <jsgotangco> ok i learned something new again
[05:07] <froud-work> people often get confused between localization and translation
[05:07] <mdke> froud-work, so are you suggesting we don't use rosetta for translation of our docs?
[05:07] <froud-work> the call then the same thing
[05:07] <mdke> it is an option
[05:07] <froud-work> mdke: no we want to
[05:07] <mdke> froud-work, obviously it would be desirable
[05:08] <froud-work> just wish they would make it work
[05:08] <jsgotangco> it would be much easier for us if our docs are in rosetta as well
[05:08] <froud-work> I must work now
[05:08] <jsgotangco> ok
[05:08] <jsgotangco> froud-work, thanks again
[05:08] <mdke> we just need to forward them the pot file afaik
[05:08] <jsgotangco> i will be sleeping soon
[05:08] <froud-work> np
[05:09] <mdke> i'll ping you guys if carlos calls
[05:09] <jsgotangco> ok im going to sleep see you guys later
[05:09] <mdke> k
[05:09] <mdke> jsgotangco, did you answer joao?
[05:09] <mdke> if not i'll do it
[05:09] <jsgotangco> mdke, i did but before reading carlos' email
[05:09] <jsgotangco> i told him if its available in rosetta, do it in rosetta, if not, we'll commit
[05:10] <mdke> jsgotangco, i didn't get the mail
[05:10] <jsgotangco> its sent to ubuntu-doc as well
[05:10] <mdke> hmm
[05:10] <mdke> ok it will be here soon then
[05:11] <jsgotangco> yep its alrady on archive
[05:11] <jsgotangco> ok see you
[05:16] <mdke> froud-work, this will make you smile: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/PaulBoddie/
[05:17] <mdke> "vanilla ubuntu" ;p
[05:18] <froud-work> you see, people need to make the diff, I still like gubuntu
[05:18] <mdke> vanilla ubuntu is the best i've heard lol
[05:19] <froud-work> vubuntu
[05:19] <mdke> vavavoombuntu
[05:19] <froud-work> pronounced voo boontoo
[05:23] <mdke> carlos has written another msg to our list
[05:28] <froud-work> uh now carlos says that the quick guide will be in today
[05:28] <froud-work> and joas is gonna take form trunk
[05:30] <mdke> don't worry
[05:30] <mdke> we'll talk to them both
[05:31] <mdke> in any case po files can be uploaded to rosetta
[05:32] <mdke> i've replied just now to joao
[06:14] <carlos> hi
[06:14] <carlos> mdke: tell me
[06:15] <mdke> hi carlos 
[06:15] <mdke> maybe froud-work will join us too
[06:15] <mdke> carlos, we wanted to try and clear up the confusion of documentation in rosetta
[06:15] <mdke> first of all: are things imported into rosetta automatically?
[06:15] <mdke> such as our documents
[06:16] <carlos> anything that enters into Ubuntu's archive is imported automatically
[06:16] <carlos> (if it has a .po/.pot file)
[06:16] <carlos> but the documentation should be handled in a different way
[06:17] <mdke> carlos, what do you mean by "should"
[06:17] <carlos> because you want to publish .pot files *before* they enter into Ubuntu, right?
[06:17] <mdke> carlos, maybe you can help us figure out what we want
[06:17] <carlos> mdke: "should" is that it's not done atm but we are going to prepare a way to do it
[06:17] <mdke> carlos, the system currently is confused: we write docs and can make pot files from them
[06:18] <carlos> then, you need to put those .pot files into Rosetta
[06:18] <mdke> carlos, i am not sure whether these pot files go into the ubuntu Archive or not
[06:18] <carlos> mdke: if they exists in the .deb's source packages
[06:18] <mdke> carlos, yes we need to ask enrico about that
[06:18] <carlos> they enter into the ubuntu archive
[06:18] <carlos> I think ubuntu-doc ones does
[06:18] <mdke> carlos, currently, there are TWO copies of two of the ubuntu docteam documents
[06:18] <mdke> and NONE of the quickguide
[06:19] <mdke> carlos, can you remedy the duplicate situation?
[06:19] <carlos> mdke: yeah, the quickguide was my fault
[06:19] <carlos> hmm, can you give me the URLs?
[06:19] <mdke> yeah hang on
[06:19] <carlos> we don't have an easy way to change that atm, still working on it, but I can try to do something...
[06:20] <mdke> we need to figure out why it happened
[06:20] <mdke> ok they are:
[06:20] <mdke> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/distros/ubuntu/hoary/+sources/ubuntu-docs/+pots/review-hoary-ubuntu-docs-1
[06:20] <mdke> then 1/2/3/4
[06:21] <mdke> this is probably due to a problem in the source package you think?
[06:22] <carlos> so -1 and -3 are the same
[06:22] <carlos> and -2 and -4 are also the same
[06:22] <mdke> i can't remember
[06:22] <mdke> either that or 1=2, 3-4
[06:23] <carlos> mdke: no, 1 and 3 have 127 messages and 2 and 4 have only 24
[06:23] <mdke> ok that's it
[06:24] <mdke> we only have one pot file in our repository, i don't know how it happened
[06:24] <mdke> any ideas?
[06:25] <carlos> the source package of ubuntu-docs have lots of .pot files
[06:25] <carlos> aboutubuntu/about-ubuntu.pot
[06:25] <carlos> quickguide/quick-guide.pot
[06:26] <mdke> so far so good
[06:26] <carlos> releasenotes/release-notes.pot
[06:26] <mdke> any more?
[06:26] <carlos> and then some extra .pot files inside common/
[06:26] <carlos> but we don't have support for more than one .pot file inside the same directory
[06:26] <mdke> carlos, but the thing is, only one per document, whereas in rosetta there are two
[06:26] <carlos> and that's why they are not also imported
[06:27] <mdke> carlos, oh thats not a big deal we can figure that out
[06:27] <mdke> carlos, i will make a mental note though
[06:27] <carlos> yeah, not sure why it's that way, let me check something...
[06:27] <mdke> carlos, thanks
[06:28] <mdke> once we have figured this out we can get onto other stuff
[06:29] <carlos> ok
[06:29] <carlos> mdke: is there anyway you name the .po files as ca.po instead of about-ubuntu-ca.po ?
[06:30] <carlos> as they are inside a directory, you should know the "about-ubuntu" part
[06:30] <carlos> and that way, Rosetta is able to import those .po files automatically
[06:31] <mdke> carlos, i'm most concerned about getting the original .pot files in, as probably for the next release we will not have partly done translations in our tree
[06:31] <mdke> carlos, what we want to work on is to figure out whether rosetta will be capable of working for our documentation
[06:33] <carlos> mdke: if you give us your requirements and they are not too difficult to achieve, I don't think there should be any problem. If it's difficult because it breaks the current workflow too much, we need to study it before to know if it's possible or not
[06:33] <mdke> carlos, ok, all i want to do is to find out why there are duplicates so that we can fix it
[06:34] <mdke> carlos, it may be that rosetta does not need work done to achieve our requirements, we just need to coordinate and communicate so that we know it works
[06:36] <carlos> mdke: ok, I know where is the problem
[06:36] <mdke> cool
[06:36] <carlos> mdke: it's because the package I got from you to do the initial upload
[06:36] <carlos> mdke: it's using different paths
[06:36] <carlos> than the ubuntu package
[06:37] <mdke> right so we can fix this
[06:37] <carlos> mdke: yes, but you don't need to care about it
[06:37] <mdke> how come?
[06:37] <carlos> I will kill the old one and that's all
[06:37] <mdke> great
[06:37] <mdke> merci
[06:37] <mdke> right what was my second issue
[06:38] <carlos> I need to check now why the quickguide was not uploaded automatically...
[06:38] <mdke> carlos, side issue: how come the quick-guide.pot is not uploaded?
[06:38] <mdke> LOL
[06:38] <carlos> :-)
[06:44] <carlos> mdke: sorry, I cannot explain you where is the problem...
[06:44] <carlos> because I don't understand what's failing
[06:45] <mdke> carlos, ok we can work on it later
[06:45] <mdke> carlos, next question?
[06:45] <carlos> I need to look into the problem with more time. Seems a bug in our import code, but I don't understand why...
[06:45] <mdke> carlos, i'll file?
[06:45] <carlos> mdke: sure
[06:45] <mdke> ok you, cool
[06:46] <carlos> hmm, if you could file it, is better..
[06:46] <carlos> :-)
[06:46] <mdke> cool will do
[06:46] <mdke> carlos, next question: is there any way to give them better names? does this depend on the pot file structure?
[06:46] <mdke> review-hoary-ubuntu-docs is bizarre
[06:47] <carlos> mdke: yes, there is a way to change that, no you cannot change it directly.
[06:48] <mdke> so it doesn't depend on the hoary upload?
[06:48] <carlos> It's my fault it's still that way, need to review (as the name says) to give it better names
[06:48] <mdke> Ohhhhhh
[06:48] <carlos> mdke: it's only related with the first upload
[06:48] <carlos> we try to guess a good name
[06:48] <mdke> hoary-ubuntu-docs would be an improvement ;)
[06:48] <mdke> right next question
[06:48] <carlos> but sometimes it's not possible (like ubuntu-doc's .pot files) and we need to review it by hand
[06:49] <Burgundavia_> carlos, that url is horrible
[06:49] <carlos> Burgundavia_: the URL will change also
[06:49] <Burgundavia_> carlos, good, is much too long
[06:49] <carlos> as soon as we use the right name
[06:50] <mdke> obviously from now on we will be working on documentation for breezy and the existing documentation will change a lot: in order to change this in rosetta, we should (a) upload pot file manually, (b) upload to hoary/breezy, (c) figure out a way for rosetta to get it from our repository (d) some other option????
[06:51] <mdke> carlos, tell me if the question isn't clear
[06:51] <carlos> mdke: yes, it's completely clear
[06:52] <carlos> mdke: we are going to work on a proposal next week 
[06:52] <carlos> mdke: will give you some input before implementing anything. Until that moment, you should give me the .pot files you want to upload into Rosetta and I will be your "interface"
[06:53] <mdke> carlos, that's fine
[06:53] <mdke> carlos, will they be overwritten by the older ones in the hoary archive?
[06:54] <carlos> no, as you can see, the URL you are using has "hoary" in it
[06:54] <carlos> so the development one will be in other URL
[06:54] <mdke> right
[06:54] <mdke> and what will happen to the hoary one?
[06:54] <mdke> if translations are made
[06:55] <mdke> do they get uploaded back into hoary source and upgraded?
[06:56] <carlos> mdke: if you fix the problem with the .po names, the available translations will appear as soon as you do a new upload into Hoary
[06:56] <carlos> about the .pot files, until you have a way to upload them, you should send me them also
[06:56] <froud> some of the problems can be averted on our side
[06:56] <mdke> carlos, I mean, what will happen to translations which happen on Rosetta
[06:57] <mdke> do they go back to the hoary archive?
[06:57] <froud> seems there is a constant problem with &quot;
[06:57] <carlos> mdke: for applications, yes. For documentation, is your choice
[06:57] <froud> we must use <quote></quote>
[06:57] <mdke> carlos, right we will need to talk to enrico about that
[06:57] <carlos> mdke: the language packs are not able to handle documentation
[06:58] <mdke> carlos, so we will need to get the .po files manually from rosetta and upload them?
[06:58] <carlos> mdke: yes
[06:58] <mdke> right that seems clear
[06:58] <mdke> good
[06:58] <carlos> froud: could you give me more details, please?
[06:58] <mdke> froud, can we address questions of compatibility separately
[06:59] <carlos> froud: if possible with links to Rosetta to see it
[06:59] <carlos> mdke: ok, for the rename
[06:59] <carlos> mdke: ubuntu-docs/aboutubuntu, ubuntu-docs/quickguide and ubuntu-docs/releasenotes
[07:00] <carlos> those will be the URLs
[07:00] <mdke> carlos, lovely
[07:00] <carlos> what do you want for the descriptions?
[07:00] <mdke> What is the current description?
[07:01] <froud> carlos: I dont see rosetta, jus the src on our side. I notices that when we use entity references we have problems
[07:01] <froud> for example I have an &entity; here
[07:01] <mdke> froud, entities come up in rosetta, and as long as the translators maintain them in the translation, then this is fine
[07:01] <carlos> also, you will have one ubuntu-docs/deprecated-do-not-use until we can remove it, ok?
[07:01] <mdke> carlos, great
[07:02] <mdke> carlos, for description just "releasenotes for ubuntu hoary" or whatever
[07:02] <carlos> mdke: the current description is review-hoary-ubuntu-docs-3 for ubuntu-docs in Hoary Hedgehog
[07:02] <mdke> ok then aboutubuntu for ubuntu-docs in Hoary Hedgehog seems reasonably compatible with the descriptions of the other packages in the tree
[07:03] <carlos> froud: could you at least give me the msgid? (I suppose the German translation is a good place too look for the problem)
[07:03] <carlos> mdke: you don't need to follow the standard
[07:03] <froud> we had it in German cause of charcters
[07:04] <mdke> carlos, i'm not too bothered
[07:04] <carlos> mdke: as long as the description let the user know that it's for Hoary and that it's documentation is ok
[07:04] <mdke> carlos, fine
[07:04] <froud> also had problems in tl
[07:04] <froud> not sure that this was due to rosetta though
[07:04] <mdke> yes we did have character problems
[07:05] <carlos> as those sound more related with the .po export
[07:05] <froud> it mainly occures in our xrefs etc
[07:05] <carlos> could you file a bug report with all of them?
[07:05] <froud> yes I think it is the escaping \
[07:05] <mdke> carlos, we'll try and get together a more definitive problem
[07:05] <carlos> with the msgid that is causing the problem
[07:05] <froud> sometime too many \\\
[07:05] <carlos> so we can debug it easily
[07:06] <carlos> froud: yeah, it's possible, there is already an open bug about escaping problems
[07:06] <froud> but is it rosetta or msgmerge
[07:06] <froud> or po2xml
[07:06] <carlos> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/malone/bugs/119
[07:07] <froud> ok rosetta
[07:07] <froud> well at least we know why, tought it was me :-)
[07:08] <froud> mdke: do you have the process clear in mind now?
[07:08] <mdke> carlos, with breezy in mind, i had one more question
[07:08] <mdke> carlos, it is not possible to get language translations done in Rosetta to be exported automatically either to breezy archives, or better, to our svn repository?
[07:09] <carlos> Not in the near future
[07:09] <carlos> but add it to the wish list
[07:09] <carlos> mdke: what we have is a way to get all .po files inside a tarball
[07:09] <mdke> carlos, you think in the 6 months before breezy it is doable
[07:10] <carlos> but we are improving it so it's faster. At the moment it takes a lot of time to do the export.
[07:10] <carlos> mdke: it depends on many factors
[07:11] <carlos> mdke: integrated with SVN... I don't think so
[07:11] <carlos> if you are able to get something like the language packs that Martin is doing at the moment but with documentation...
[07:11] <carlos> then it's doable, yes
[07:11] <mdke> carlos, we would have to get some developers on it
[07:11] <mdke> carlos, i think that would have to be put to sabdfl
[07:12] <mdke> but as it is, I am happy to get the files manually and commit them
[07:12] <carlos> and perhaps if you move to arch/bazaar, is also doable, but not sure. Our plan is to move back translations into bazaar, but we don't have a date for it
[07:13] <carlos> mdke: as I said, add it to the wish list so we don't forget it when we discuss Rosetta future next week.
[07:13] <mdke> carlos, so Rosetta is going to be abandoned before it is perfected in favour of bazaar?
[07:13] <carlos> no way :-)
[07:13] <mdke> ok phew
[07:13] <carlos> I'm talking about adding a way to export translations from Rosetta into bazaar automatically
[07:14] <froud> bazaar need sa gui
[07:14] <froud> for adoption in this team
[07:14] <mdke> carlos, anyway I feel a bit clearer about the process now, and I hope that we will iron out those duplicate/naming problems
[07:15] <carlos> mdke: today should be fixed
[07:15] <carlos> will ping you when it's done
[07:15] <mdke> carlos, we can test run the quickguide in rosetta and see how it goes
[07:16] <mdke> carlos, there is a portugese team just waiting to be let loose on it
[07:16] <mdke> i'll also try and stir up the italians
[07:16] <mdke> carlos, thanks for all your help
[07:17] <carlos> no problem
[07:17] <carlos> and please, file bugs as soon as you detect them
[07:17] <mdke> right
[07:17] <carlos> so we can also fix them :-)
[07:17] <mdke> i will follow up what we've discussed
[07:17] <mdke> carlos, i've posted it to the rosetta list about 3 time
[07:17] <mdke> s
[07:17] <mdke> :p
[07:17] <carlos> thought it was only a problem with the names
[07:18] <mdke> but in future i will use malone for stuff like that
[07:18] <carlos> thank you
[07:19] <mdke> hmm
[07:19] <carlos> mdke: will you rename the .po files then?
[07:20] <mdke> carlos, you mean the ones in common/?
[07:20] <carlos> mdke: no, the .po files
[07:20] <carlos> from DOCUMENT-es.po to es.po
[07:20] <carlos> so Rosetta can import them automatically
[07:20] <mdke> carlos, the difficulty is that we have already tagged that release
[07:20] <carlos> and people can see that those translations already exists 
[07:20] <mdke> our tree is working for breezy now
[07:20] <carlos> mdke: you are not getting new updates?
[07:21] <mdke> carlos, I have no idea about the possibility of uploading to hoary from now on
[07:21] <carlos> there is a pt_BR translation from this weekend for about ubuntu
[07:21] <carlos> mdke: it's ok to upload translation updates
[07:21] <carlos> I think the documentation is inside that case
[07:22] <mdke> froud, is it possible for us to commit new translations to the tagged tree, for uploading to hoary as an update
[07:22] <mdke> ?
[07:22] <froud> renaming could have large impact on us
[07:22] <froud> especially in commons
[07:22] <mdke> froud, its just the .pot/.po files that need to be renamed
[07:23] <mdke> froud, it could be included in the xml->po and po->xml stage?
[07:23] <froud> to lang.po
[07:23] <froud> but what about pot?
[07:23] <mdke> what is the distinction?
[07:23] <carlos> froud: the .pot file is ok as it's atm
[07:23] <mdke> ah right
[07:24] <carlos> froud: in fact, is better if you don't rename the .pot file to often or Rosetta will get confused
[07:24] <mdke> carlos, our current tree does not have the po files in the same directories, we have restructured the tree
[07:24] <mdke> carlos, do you want to take a look at it?
[07:24] <froud> we have automated our en.xml > pot > po > nn.xml process
[07:24] <carlos> mdke: oh, then Rosetta will not be able to import the .po files ...
[07:24] <froud> would have to change scripts
[07:25] <carlos> but it's not a big problem, we need to add support for that configuration, so don't worry
[07:25] <mdke> carlos, that is not a problem because it is only the .pot file that needs to go into rosetta 
[07:25] <carlos> mdke: not really
[07:25] <mdke> individual translations can be uploaded separately
[07:25] <carlos> if you don't want people waste their time
[07:25] <carlos> mdke: you need to upload .po files into Rosetta 
[07:25] <froud> I'm a bit lost
[07:26] <froud> I thought they are already there
[07:26] <mdke> carlos, ok we need to make a distinction between hoary and breezy here
[07:26] <carlos> mdke: ooh, I see your point. Ok
[07:26] <froud> we need to get them
[07:26] <mdke> breezy = ALL translations to be done in rosetta, none outside, if possible
[07:26] <froud> but to upload changes we need the same file sname conv
[07:26] <froud> otherwise we get duplicates
[07:26] <froud> right?
[07:26] <mdke> froud, what do you mean?
[07:27] <froud> trying to understand
[07:27] <froud> hold a sec
[07:27] <froud> as I see
[07:27] <froud> we give pot
[07:27] <froud> locos make pos
[07:27] <froud> in filename nn.po
[07:27] <froud> we get this
[07:27] <froud> we need to keep this convention
[07:28] <froud> so when we have changes the same filename exists in rosetta
[07:28] <froud> right?
[07:28] <carlos> mdke: well, if you import a .po file that has been downloaded from Rosetta, the statistics part of Rosetta also changes
[07:28] <froud> import to where
[07:28] <carlos> mdke: so people can know how many translations landed into Ubuntu already
[07:28] <carlos> mdke: (instead of purple you get green bars)
[07:29] <mdke> right...
[07:29] <froud> carlos you want po files in nn.po naming convention?
[07:29] <carlos> froud: yes, please
[07:29] <froud> fine
[07:29] <froud> done
[07:29] <mdke> listen hold your horses here everyone
[07:29] <mdke> froud, that only helps if they are uploaded to the hoary repos
[07:29] <carlos> froud: it's the only way we have to map the .po files to the right language
[07:29] <froud> ok
[07:29] <froud> clear
[07:30] <mdke> and to upload we need to rename and upload our OLD tagged tree, correct?
[07:30] <froud> I will update our script
[07:30] <carlos> mdke: right, and that's done as soon as you upload a package into the archive
[07:30] <carlos> mdke: not really, I will take care of it
[07:30] <mdke> froud, are you clear that we are talking about the OLD trunk
[07:30] <froud> I cant do much in old trunk
[07:30] <carlos> mdke: as soon as next releases are done with the new name...
[07:30] <froud> freeze is frozen
[07:30] <froud> the change must happen in rosetta
[07:30] <mdke> ok we need to be very clear here
[07:31] <carlos> mdke: I'm talking about both, hoary and hoary+1
[07:31] <mdke> for breezy this problem doesn't arise because we won't be uploading po files
[07:31] <mdke> they will be created and made in rosetta
[07:31] <froud> carlos you will have to rename all current po files (hoary ones)
[07:31] <froud> I will rename in breezy trunk
[07:32] <froud> that way if we import the file name is the same
[07:32] <froud> will that work
[07:32] <carlos> froud: ok
[07:32] <froud> mdke: we cant do much about hoary here
[07:33] <mdke> froud, right, that is what I asked you
[07:33] <froud> what we need is to make sure breezy trunk conforms
[07:33] <mdke> froud, much of mine and carlos's conversation has involved hoary: in fact rosetta does not yet have breezy in it
[07:33] <froud> At end of our dev there will alread be a file for nn.po in rosetta
[07:34] <froud> mdke: I cannot do anything about hoary it is gone
[07:34] <froud> trunk is now breezy
[07:34] <mdke> *sighs*
[07:34] <mdke> i understand that
[07:34] <froud> so we need to move fwd
[07:34] <froud> providing that carlos has the same filenames as we do then it will merge
[07:34] <froud> ahead in time
[07:35] <froud> carlos: is that correct
[07:35] <froud> eg
[07:35] <carlos> mdke: but as soon as breezy is added to launchpad, the translations will be imported automatically, so better fix it as soon as possible :-)
[07:35] <mdke> yes of course
[07:35] <mdke> carlos, but we haven't uploaded to breezy yet don't worry
[07:35] <froud> you have hoary ver of es.po that you renamed
[07:35] <froud> I rename breezy version to es.po
[07:36] <froud> in rosetta the hoary and breezy po files merge
[07:36] <froud> carlos: do I understand it
[07:36] <carlos> froud: yeah, as I said, don't care about Hoary, I will fix that
[07:36] <froud> OK that makes life easier
[07:36] <mdke> carlos, if it appears (as froud says) that the docteam is unwilling to do any more uploads to hoary, then it will be a good idea to remove the docteam things from rosetta
[07:36] <carlos> unless you release updates to the Hoary documentation, in which case, you should use the new names, please.
[07:36] <froud> mdke: we need to focus on getting trunk in shape
[07:36] <mdke> froud, that will not be difficult
[07:37] <carlos> mdke: I doubt we are not going to accept documentation updates
[07:37] <froud> carlos: we have no update to hoary
[07:37] <carlos> but I'm not the right person to ask
[07:37] <mdke> froud, it would be a translation only update
[07:37] <froud> mdke: no
[07:37] <carlos> froud: yeah, I'm talking about translations updates
[07:37] <mdke> froud, the other translations in rosetta will be uploaded into hoary via the language packs
[07:37] <mdke> froud, no what?
[07:37] <carlos> froud: really? it's just like a language pack update
[07:38] <carlos> the language packs will be updated once per month
[07:38] <froud> so we will be patching tags/
[07:38] <carlos> So Hoary gets security + critical bugs + translations updates
[07:38] <mdke> froud, i wanted to explore the possibility
[07:39] <mdke> froud, otherwise we should remove the docteam stuff from rosetta/hoary
[07:39] <froud> ooooh we are getting into trouble
[07:39] <mdke> because people will be doing translations that will not get into the distribution
[07:39] <mdke> froud, why?
[07:40] <froud> mdke: ok but we must make sure that we apply our patches to the tag and not trunk
[07:40] <mdke> froud, yes, in fact I would be in favour of removing all translations from trunk when they are imported into rosetta
[07:40] <froud> and now we will have to rename trunk and tag
[07:40] <mdke> froud, we can explore the possibility with enrico and mdz (we have to make sure they are willing to accept the upload first)
[07:40] <froud> how to you propose getting the xml
[07:41] <mdke> froud, yes this is a good point
[07:41] <froud> at some point a po must hit our repos
[07:41] <mdke> froud, oh sorry i wasn't clear
[07:41] <froud> on our side we have the process
[07:42] <mdke> froud, after the existing translations are imported into rosetta, the proposition is that all translation is done in rosetta, then, shortly before release, the po files are taken from rosetta, made into xml, and released
[07:42] <froud> internally that is
[07:42] <mdke> getting the po files from rosetta would be done manually, and I am happy to do it
[07:42] <mdke> and commit to our repo
[07:42] <mdke> am i being clear?
[07:42] <froud> mdke: can we automate
[07:42] <mdke> no
[07:42] <froud> email the po
[07:43] <froud> to the list
[07:43] <mdke> good idea
[07:43] <mdke> carlos?
[07:43] <froud> first committer does svn commit
[07:43] <froud> get po files as they are complete
[07:43] <froud> not one big job
[07:43] <froud> we still need to make the nn.xml
[07:44] <froud> so es.po must become manual-es.xml
[07:44] <froud> we need to test
[07:44] <froud> and we nee to check the screen capts
[07:44] <mdke> yes
[07:44] <froud> sorry I like stuff in dribs and drabs
[07:44] <carlos> mdke: ?
[07:45] <froud> that way work level is more or less constant
[07:45] <froud> with big batches everyting goes mad
[07:45] <froud> then quite again
[07:45] <mdke> carlos, we are talking about the process of getting completed po's from rosetta (for hoary+1): you remember you said it was difficult to automate, froud wonders if it is possible to automate emails sent to the doclist with completed po files
[07:46] <carlos> mdke: not atm, not sure in the near future
[07:46] <mdke> ok we can think about it
[07:46] <mdke> froud, otherwise I will keep an eye on it
[07:47] <carlos> mdke: but it has not too much mistery, we will have a URL to get all .po files for that POTemplate
[07:47] <froud> mdke: yes, but add files as they complete
[07:47] <mdke> froud, i said I would add that to the rosetta wishlist
[07:47] <carlos> so it should be easy
[07:47] <mdke> froud, yes fine
[07:47] <mdke> carlos, yes of course, so it is easy to do manually
[07:47] <froud> carlos: why not script it and wget new po files
[07:48] <froud> sorry I am a lazy bugger
[07:48] <mdke> this will not be our biggest issue
[07:48] <froud> the more auto the better
[07:49] <froud> mdke: you know I am gonna have problems renaming in tags/
[07:49] <froud> the make system will break
[07:49] <carlos> 'About page for Ubuntu Hoary', 'Quick Guide for Ubuntu Hoary' and 'Release Notes for Ubuntu Hoary' -> Those are the descriptions/titles people will see after the rename, is it ok?
[07:49] <carlos> froud: you are free to do the script :-)
[07:50] <froud> titles are good
[07:50] <mdke> carlos, cool thanks
[07:50] <mdke> froud, ok we can talk about the tag issue now, but carlos doesn't have to stay right?
[07:50] <froud> sure
[07:51] <mdke> great
[07:51] <mdke> carlos, :) thanks a million for your patience
[07:51] <carlos> no problem
[07:52] <froud> mdke: renaming of files in trunk is gonna break many things
[07:52] <froud> the debs build system for one
[07:52] <mdke> froud, hmm
[07:52] <froud> enrico has many rules and directories
[07:52] <mdke> froud, which shall we talk about first?
[07:52] <froud> which ever
[07:53] <mdke> i have a good solution for trunk
[07:53] <froud> let here
[07:53] <froud> hear
[07:53] <mdke> oh no i need to think it through
[07:54] <mdke> i'm gonna think out loud
[07:54] <froud> ok
[07:54] <mdke> essentially, it is not necessary for breezy that po files get uploaded automatically from the breezy archive. It is only the pot files that need to be uploaded directly to rosetta
[07:54] <froud> y
[07:54] <mdke> we will be getting the po files from rosetta and committing them
[07:54] <froud> y
[07:54] <mdke> what I did last release was to rename de.po to aboutubuntu-de.po
[07:54] <mdke> etc
[07:54] <froud> y
[07:54] <mdke> before committing
[07:55] <mdke> the only thing that needs to be done is for the existing translations in trunk to be uploaded to rosetta, once. This can /should be done manually
[07:55] <froud> I will change script to create name-de.xml from de.po
[07:55] <mdke> froud, brilliant
[07:55] <froud> yes
[07:56] <mdke> that is all needs to be done afaics
[07:56] <froud> yes trunk is easy
[07:56] <mdke> ok good
[07:56] <mdke> shall we move to hoary now?
[07:56] <froud> y
[07:56] <mdke> again what is proposed is the manual committing of po files from rosetta
[07:57] <froud> y
[07:57] <mdke> convertion to xml, upload to hoary archive
[07:57] <froud> y
[07:57] <mdke> ok your turn
[07:57] <mdke> what are the difficulties we might encounter
[07:57] <froud> if we commit es.po we will now have name-es.po and es.po
[07:58] <froud> to keep integrity we need to keep naming conv
[07:58] <mdke> what is wrong with committing name-es.po
[07:58] <froud> so before commit we mv nn.po to name-nn.po
[07:58] <froud> then we update the current make
[07:59] <froud> hoary one
[07:59] <froud> if we do this we will be ok
[07:59] <froud> then enrico must update debs
[07:59] <mdke> we need to get enrico involved
[07:59] <mdke> yuh
[07:59] <froud> yep
[07:59] <mdke> what are his movements atm?
[07:59] <froud> somewhere on planet earth
[07:59] <froud> this is why I lik eto automate stuff :-)
[08:00] <froud> long story of experience
[08:00] <mdke> yeah i understand
[08:00] <froud> no single person is a point of failure
[08:00] <froud> provided that directory paths dont change and filename conv is kept we r ok
[08:00] <froud> but make file needs update and so does deb
[08:01] <froud> anyway we look at it
[08:01] <mdke> well at the moment we have no updated po files to worry about
[08:01] <froud> becuase at present they do not know about these new locos
[08:01] <mdke> oh right
[08:01] <froud> correct, but if say we get a pt quickguide then we have aproblem
[08:02] <mdke> yeah
[08:02] <froud> at present we only have fr
[08:02] <mdke> ok
[08:02] <froud> and just today a loco wanted to make pt
[08:02] <mdke> carlos is putting the quickguide in rosetta today so maybe we will get more
[08:02] <froud> provided that the loco stuff is not forever and in buckets we can manage
[08:02] <mdke> froud, so you think that maybe we can deal
[08:03] <froud> we can deal
[08:03] <froud> as we have discussed here
[08:03] <mdke> i will try and write up a report of this discussion
[08:03] <froud> but we must be sure not to commit hoary to trunk
[08:03] <mdke> absolutey
[08:03] <mdke> l
[08:03] <froud> one mor ething
[08:04] <mdke> shoot
[08:04] <froud> when we have new po in tag
[08:04] <carlos> Quick Guide has 534 messages, right?
[08:04] <mdke> carlos, something like that
[08:04] <froud> we must then merge that update to trunk
[08:04] <mdke> froud, hmmmmmmm
[08:04] <froud> it is easy if we have no po
[08:04] <carlos> the rename and the import was done in our development server, I hope it will be also done in the public server in one hour or so
[08:05] <froud> but if there is a po we now have to resolve conflicts
[08:05] <mdke> froud, can't it just be replaced?
[08:05] <mdke> with the newer one
[08:05] <carlos> after that, I will do the .po import
[08:05] <mdke> carlos, gracias
[08:05] <carlos> mdke: de nada
[08:05] <carlos> :-P
[08:05] <mdke> carlos, what po's are you importing?
[08:05] <carlos> mdke: will import the ones that are in hoary's archive
[08:05] <froud> carlos we have no po file to import
[08:06] <carlos> ubuntu-docs_1.0-2
[08:06] <froud> they should be in rostetta already
[08:06] <froud> no?
[08:06] <mdke> froud, no they are not because of the naming issue
[08:06] <froud> Ah ok
[08:06] <carlos> froud: no, I need to fix the name so they land into rosetta
[08:06] <carlos> :-)
[08:06] <mdke> carlos, that is very cool thanks
[08:06] <froud> ooh this is now mesy
[08:07] <froud> mdke: carlos is changing names but we are not in tag
[08:07] <froud> oh no it is ok
[08:07] <mdke> froud, carlos will be changing names just to import to rosetta
[08:07] <carlos> froud: the rename will only affect Rosetta, don't worry
[08:07] <froud> yes
[08:07] <mdke> i feel totally drained ;)
[08:08] <carlos> :-P
[08:08] <froud> has that problem
[08:08] <froud> mdke: new po files must be merged to trunk
[08:08] <froud> mdke: new po files in tags must be merged to trunk
[08:08] <froud> mdke: no problem when new
[08:09] <froud> mdke: problem when update
[08:09] <mdke> hang on a tic
[08:09] <mdke> i am being slow maybe:
[08:09] <froud> mdke: conflicts will occur
[08:09] <froud> ok
[08:09] <mdke> 1. what is the reason they need to be merged to trunk
[08:09] <mdke> 2. if they do, can't the updates ones just overwrite the old ones
[08:09] <froud> mdke: why have it only in tag
[08:10] <froud> mdke: providing the one in trunk is has no breezy info
[08:10] <mdke> froud, because for breezy, translation will be done in rosetta (hopefully)
[08:10] <froud> what when you have overlap
[08:10] <mdke> hmmm
[08:10] <froud> people could keep making translations of qg for 12 months
[08:11] <mdke> yeah i take your point
[08:11] <froud> there are enough langs
[08:11] <mdke> we have a problem
[08:11] <froud> not really
[08:11] <froud> just overhead
[08:11] <mdke> when rosetta opens to breezy, the po files will not get uploaded automatically unless they have that naming pattern we've talked about
[08:11] <froud> thatis fine
[08:11] <mdke> yeah?
[08:12] <froud> ok lets take it slow
[08:12] <mdke> ok
[08:12] <froud> 1. in tag we get a new po
[08:12] <mdke> yes
[08:12] <froud> 2. in tag we make new xml
[08:12] <mdke> y
[08:12] <froud> 3. in tag we update make and build
[08:12] <mdke> y
[08:13] <froud> 4. we check in trunk if po exists
[08:13] <mdke> k
[08:13] <froud> 5. if exists merge to trunk
[08:13] <froud> opps
[08:13] <froud> 5. in not exists, we merge to trunk
[08:13] <froud> 6. if exists we diff
[08:13] <mdke> can't it be overwritten rather than diffed?
[08:14] <froud> check the diff resolve conflicts
[08:14] <froud> no
[08:14] <froud> if po in trunk is breezy
[08:14] <froud> then
[08:14] <froud> it may contain updates for breezy
[08:15] <mdke> but the po's in trunk will be hoary, because they will be those left over, won't they?
[08:15] <froud> if delta is same msgid as in trunk we have a conflict
[08:15] <mdke> although the english versions will have changed
[08:15] <froud> eng changes, so does pot
[08:15] <froud> pot changes uploads to rose
[08:15] <froud> po comes back to trunk
[08:15] <froud> interim po comes for hoary
[08:16] <froud> same file different version
[08:16] <mdke> hang on
[08:16] <froud> must merge carefiully
[08:16] <mdke> i don't get this stage: froud pot changes uploads to rose
[08:16] <froud> ok sect 1, 2, 3
[08:16] <mdke> oh you mean breezy rosetta
[08:16] <mdke> yeah sorry
[08:17] <froud> ok consider it again
[08:17] <froud> sect1, 2, 3 in trunk changes
[08:17] <froud> sect 4,5, 6 dis not
[08:17] <froud> say each sect is 1 msgid
[08:18] <froud> now somebody takes hoary creates new po
[08:18] <froud> but we alsready have po for breezy back from rosetta
[08:18] <mdke> hang on i'm not following you
[08:18] <froud> now 456 is good
[08:18] <mdke> you need to use a bit fuller language
[08:18] <froud> but 123 is problem
[08:19] <froud> ok
[08:19] <mdke> what does "froud now somebody takes hoary creates new po" mean
[08:19] <froud> this is hard I try again
[08:20] <froud> 2 paragraphs
[08:20] <froud> for breezy we update 1
[08:20] <mdke> y
[08:20] <froud> the second remains unchanged as it was for hoary
[08:20] <mdke> ?
[08:20] <froud> we sent a pot file for breezy
[08:20] <mdke> oh sorry yes
[08:20] <froud> and got back a es.po
[08:21] <mdke> from rosetta?
[08:21] <froud> para 1 is new
[08:21] <mdke> right
[08:21] <froud> yes
[08:21] <froud> para 2 is same as hoary
[08:21] <froud> so in hoary and  breezypo files the diffence is para 1
[08:21] <mdke> y
[08:22] <mdke> yes
[08:22] <froud> ok now comes a typo
[08:22] <froud> in para 2
[08:22] <froud> in hoary
[08:22] <froud> the same typo is in breezy
[08:23] <mdke> yes
[08:23] <froud> we want to fix breezy
[08:23] <mdke> yes
[08:23] <froud> we merge changes from hoary to breezy
[08:23] <froud> what is the difference
[08:23] <froud> para 1 + typo
[08:23] <mdke> yes
[08:24] <froud> so what will happen is we will end up with hoary para 1 being merged to breezy para 1
[08:24] <froud> and now we have a conflict
[08:24] <froud> he strings are not the same
[08:24] <froud> the change in para 2 will apply without problem
[08:24] <froud> it is para 1 that is now the problem
[08:25] <mdke> the typo correction is done in the xml file right?
[08:25] <froud> should be in the po file
[08:25] <mdke> what po file?
[08:25] <froud> the type was found in hoary
[08:25] <froud> it was changed in haory
[08:25] <mdke> i thought we have frozen hoary
[08:25] <froud> say the loco mispelled a word
[08:26] <mdke> oh you mean in the translation
[08:26] <mdke> hmmm
[08:26] <froud> as of now it is not
[08:26] <froud> since we are acepting po files
[08:26] <mdke> froud, well english is frozen i mean
[08:26] <froud> yes
[08:26] <mdke> right I'm beginning to follow you
[08:26] <froud> good now you ask
[08:27] <froud> why do we want a new po file from hoary in breezy
[08:27] <froud> if we did not have a po file in hoary chances are we dont have one for breezy
[08:27] <mdke> yeah
[08:27] <froud> we would like it for breezy
[08:28] <froud> but our eng doc changed 10%
[08:28] <mdke> yeah
[08:28] <froud> do we expect locos to translate the 90% again
[08:28] <froud> no
[08:28] <mdke> no
[08:29] <mdke> so it needs to be uploaded to rosetta
[08:29] <froud> we want the pot process to change the 10% in the pot file
[08:29] <mdke> s/uploaded/merged and uploaded
[08:29] <froud> that way when we upload the pot to the rose
[08:30] <froud> the locos see that the difference between the new pot an dthe old po is 10%
[08:30] <froud> they loco the 10%
[08:30] <mdke> yeah ok
[08:30] <froud> and we get new po
[08:30] <mdke> froud, you have the patience of a saint
[08:30] <froud> we make diff between old po and new po
[08:30] <mdke> thanks
[08:30] <froud> we apply diff only
[08:31] <mdke> isn't it possible to diff before uploading to rosetta?
[08:31] <froud> ok so you understand the problem
[08:31] <mdke> so that in rosetta it shows as 90% complete
[08:31] <froud> no the xml2pot does that
[08:31] <mdke> they translate the remaining 10%, then we get it and commit
[08:31] <froud> when we xml2pot it only updates what has changed
[08:31] <froud> not the whole pot file
[08:32] <mdke> there is no problem updating the master pot file in rosetta, that will get updated when we upload to breezy archives
[08:32] <froud> xml2pot does does our merge for us
[08:32] <froud> we send the whole pot to the rose
[08:33] <froud> but rosetta sees that it is 10% new
[08:33] <froud> 90% done
[08:33] <froud> why
[08:33] <froud> because of the old po files
[08:33] <mdke> yes
[08:33] <froud> the diff between the new po and existing po files in the rose is 10%
[08:33] <mdke> yes
[08:34] <mdke> erm
[08:34] <mdke> hang on
[08:34] <froud> now we get back new po
[08:34] <mdke> ok yes
[08:34] <froud> 10% diff to what we have in svn
[08:34] <froud> we dont just copy over if 
[08:34] <mdke> why not?
[08:34] <froud> we apply the diff
[08:34] <froud> when you do svn commit
[08:34] <froud> it compares the head with WC
[08:35] <froud> and sends the diff
[08:35] <mdke> oh
[08:35] <froud> not the whole file
[08:35] <mdke> so if I was downloading new po files from rosetta, i would just replace them, then do svn commit, and it would be fine?
[08:36] <froud> yes, provding there are no changes in the wc po file
[08:36] <froud> which ther should not be
[08:36] <froud> since we only accept po from rose
[08:36] <froud> but when you commit you are applying the diff only
[08:37] <mdke> let me just get this clear
[08:37] <mdke> i would get the new po from rose, do a cp to the relevant place in my working copy of svn, then commit, and that would be fine?
[08:37] <froud> carry on I must put my kids to bed
[08:37] <mdke> ok
[08:38] <froud> yes, providing you have no changes from hoary that are in the delta
[08:38] <froud> otherwise a fix in hoary brough to breezy will be overwitten
[08:38] <froud> that is why I suggest you diff first
[08:39] <mdke> hmm
[08:39] <froud> then if no conflict do cp
[08:39] <mdke> it would simplify things greatly if po files were only added to hoary/tag once
[08:39] <froud> if conflict first resolve
[08:39] <mdke> wouldn't it?
[08:39] <froud> :-)
[08:39] <froud> brb
[08:43] <mdke> i'm serious: i suggest we only add po files to hoary/tag once. Not allowing for correction
[08:44] <mdke> it is something of an achievement to get them in at all
[08:44] <froud> mdke: I forgot something
[08:44] <froud> lets say you update a typo in hoary po
[08:45] <froud> and you have a breezy po
[08:45] <froud> you merge the fix to breezy
[08:45] <froud> you are happy cause breezy is fixed
[08:45] <froud> now somebody fixes breezy po in th erose
[08:45] <froud> rose
[08:46] <froud> you get new copy
[08:46] <froud> can you just do cp
[08:46] <mdke> yeah this is too much
[08:46] <froud> no
[08:46] <froud> so you must upload fixed svn breezy po to th epose
[08:46] <mdke> i seriously think that we should just add po files to hoary once, and merge them to breezy once, and upload those to rosetta
[08:46] <mdke> and not allow further correction in hoary
[08:47] <froud> it will not avoid you the problem
[08:47] <mdke> why?
[08:47] <froud> ok I add new hoary po
[08:47] <froud> we already have a new brezy po
[08:47] <mdke> why?
[08:48] <mdke> where from?
[08:48] <froud> what if two locos
[08:48] <froud> one takes hoary pot and on one takes breezy pot
[08:48] <froud> both translate
[08:48] <froud> we are happy for the hoary po
[08:48] <froud> we are happy for the breezy po
[08:48] <mdke> froud, they can't take breezy po's
[08:49] <froud> for how long?
[08:49] <froud> when they do does that mean we acept no new po files for hoary
[08:49] <mdke> froud, the suggestion is for all breezy translation to be done in rosetta right?
[08:49] <froud> yes
[08:49] <froud> but hoary is ongoing
[08:50] <mdke> froud, so if we only accept hoary translations once, and don't permit corrections, the merge and upload to rosetta only needs to be done once right?
[08:50] <mdke> rather than all the time
[08:50] <froud> yes
[08:50] <froud> in theory
[08:50] <froud> but are you gonna tell a guy he cant patch his hoary thing
[08:51] <froud> he did the work
[08:51] <froud> it is his
[08:51] <froud> he is entitled to path it
[08:51] <mdke> froud, after we upload a translation to hoary, i think we can close any correction and say "please work on the version for breezy"
[08:52] <froud> yes itis better
[08:52] <mdke> uhoh
[08:52] <froud> :-) coffee
[08:52] <froud> but you understand the problem
[08:52] <froud> that is the main thing
[08:52] <mdke> yeah i hope i do
[08:53] <froud> that you are aware of the problems that now result
[08:53] <froud> being aware is half the problem solved
[08:53] <mdke> given these problems, what do you think
[08:53] <froud> leave it
[08:53] <mdke> i'm tempted to say leave it too
[08:53] <froud> let it run 
[08:53] <mdke> let what run?
[08:53] <froud> take new and patches
[08:54] <froud> the more hoary improves
[08:54] <froud> the more we can improve breezy
[08:54] <mdke> froud, so despite the problems we've discussed, you are willing to try to allow translations to hoary?
[08:54] <froud> yes, because of the compound effect
[08:54] <mdke> is it worth it?
[08:54] <mdke> hmm
[08:55] <froud> ok slow
[08:55] <froud> guy runs hoary
[08:55] <froud> oh look a typo
[08:55] <froud> fixes it
[08:55] <froud> gives it to us or to rose
[08:55] <froud> we get it in tags
[08:55] <froud> nice fix, oh we have it in breezy too
[08:56] <froud> lets fix breezy
[08:56] <mdke> i think its gonna get messy if we start fixing every typo in tags
[08:56] <froud> all hapy
[08:56] <froud> but we must make sure to send po file back to rose
[08:56] <mdke> better to encourage people to work on rosetta/breezy 
[08:56] <froud> so now our source is inline with us
[08:56] <froud> mdke: we are upstream for rose
[08:57] <mdke> what do you mean by that
[08:57] <froud> if we get fixes to pot or po we puch it down stream
[08:57] <froud> then the role reverses
[08:57] <froud> we are downstream to rose
[08:57] <froud> they push us changes
[08:58] <froud> we must always ensure that we push changes before rose 
[08:58] <froud> that way when we get back the po we get it back with our fix
[08:58] <froud> otherwise we are wasting our time merging fixes from hoary to breezy
[08:59] <froud> cause the new rose files will not hav ethe fix
[08:59] <froud> coffee
[08:59] <mdke> lol
[09:01] <mdke> i'm afk for a while
[09:04] <froud> mdke: do you work in a softwar ehouse
[09:04] <froud> or have you ever
[09:04] <froud> Think of it this way then
[09:05] <froud> when customer by large software it is expensive
[09:05] <froud> they may upgrade every release or every other release or every thrid release
[09:05] <froud> in some cases the upgrade once in several years
[09:06] <froud> deoending on the support contract the customer has with the software vendor, the vendor must continue to support the version they have
[09:07] <froud> so lets say the customer runs version 3 and finds a bug
[09:07] <froud> but the vendors current shipping product is version 6
[09:08] <froud> do they not fix the customers problem when they are under contract
[09:08] <froud> they must
[09:08] <froud> and they do
[09:09] <froud> but when they do they also check v 4, 5, 6 to see if that bug was fixed in those versions
[09:09] <froud> if not they fix the bug in all versions 3 >
[09:10] <froud> the compound effect is worth the overhead
[09:12] <froud> while working on grumpy we can concievably accept fixes to hoary
[09:42] <mdke> froud, ok fair enough
[09:42] <mdke> froud, i'm certainly willing to help where I can
[09:42] <froud> you have been a great help with this already :-)
[09:42] <froud> thanks
[09:42] <mdke> np
[09:42] <mdke> thank you for your patience
[09:42] <froud> no worries
[09:55] <carlos> mdke, froud: ubuntu-docs names fixed
[09:55] <carlos> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/distros/ubuntu/hoary/+sources/ubuntu-docs/+translations
[09:55] <froud> thnks carlos 
[09:55] <mdke> carlos, gracias amigo
[09:56] <carlos> mdke, froud: In about 10 minutes, the quickguide should be uploaded (perhaps it will take more time, not sure, it depends on the load of the server)
[09:56] <carlos> so don't pay attention to the current content, it will be fixed as soon as the import is finished.
[09:57] <mdke> ok
[09:57] <mdke> you're writing over one of the releasenotes with the quickguide yes?
[09:58] <mdke> froud, there is already a brazilian aboutubuntu that we can use when testing whether we are going to be successful in tags
[09:58] <carlos> mdke: yes
[09:58] <froud> mdke: lets do it no fear
[09:58] <froud> trust svn
[09:58] <froud> hack the code
[09:59] <mdke> :)
[10:14] <carlos> mdke: the quickguide is in place now
[10:14] <carlos> and you have two strings already translated into german :-P
[10:16] <froud> dam that rose grows fast
[10:17] <carlos> froud: it's from the release notes, I reused that potemplate and seems like you are sharing two strings in those .pot files
[10:17] <carlos> :-P