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jsgotangcogood morning!03:12
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jsgotangcohi EricNeon 03:17
EricNeonmorning jsgotangco03:17
jeffschhello jsgotangco 03:25
jsgotangcowhoa the chat log was steaming...03:33
jeffschyea, it's pretty big03:34
jeffschI see you had a question about alt text03:34
jeffschuse textobject element for that03:35
jsgotangcohmm ok ill check that on the dtd 03:35
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jsgotangcook i get it now i use mediaobject instead03:39
jeffschmediaobject instead of what?03:41
jeffschyou can use textobject in both  mediaobject and inlinemediaobject03:44
jsgotangcohmmm ok ill just experiment then03:45
jeffschmediaobject is formatted as a displayed block, inlinemediaobject is formatted inline03:47
jeffschyou put textobject at same level as imageobject within mediaobject 03:49
jeffschbut you must put textobject after imageobject03:49
jeffschif the system can't find the image, it puts the text instead03:50
jsgotangco<textobject> is inside <inlinemediaobject> then03:50
jeffschyes. I will show you example from quickguide...03:51
jeffsch            <screenshot>03:51
jeffsch                <mediaobject>03:51
jeffsch                    <imageobject>03:51
jeffsch                        <imagedata fileref="../../images/&language;/desktop.png" format="PNG"/>03:51
jeffsch                    </imageobject>03:51
jeffsch                    <textobject>03:51
jeffsch                        <phrase>Ubuntu Hoary Desktop</phrase>03:51
jeffsch                    </textobject>03:51
jeffsch                </mediaobject>03:51
jeffsch            </screenshot>03:51
jsgotangco<imagedata fileref="../../images/&language;/kubuntu-final.png" format="PNG"/>03:52
jsgotangco<phrase>Welcome to Kubuntu Linux</phrase>03:52
jeffschif you really want kubuntu-final.png to be inline, then yes03:54
jsgotangcook ill try some variations03:55
jeffschyea. you never know how yelp will handle it.03:56
jsgotangcoyeah i noticed that when I use inlinemediaobject, it uses the same image in the navigation bar below03:58
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Lizgreetings all04:44
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jsgotangcohi Liz04:53
Lizhiya jsgotangco 04:54
Lizbrb. reboot05:21
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jsgotangcowhat do you guys think of Kubuntu Kwick Kompendium (aka guide) sound06:46
jsgotangcohi froud08:13
froudI see you got started with kwick guide08:13
jsgotangcoive done loads now08:14
jsgotangcoive yet to commit08:14
jsgotangcoi dont think its a quick guide anymore08:14
froudI was just about to say08:14
froudno matter put it in08:14
froudlets see it08:15
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jsgotangcobecause ive been doing the tree and i think i can merge some docs08:15
froudyou never know we may reuse parts08:15
jsgotangcothat's why its now the Kubuntu Kwick Kompendium08:15
jsgotangcoi can probably merge kuserguide to this guide08:16
jsgotangcothe kuserguide can be lifted from existing kde docs08:16
jsgotangcobut the first part of the manual can be the quick guide08:17
jsgotangcothat has 3 audiences08:17
jsgotangco1. newbies08:17
jsgotangco2. switchers08:17
jsgotangco3. veterans08:17
jsgotangcofrom the 3 sections i can expand the tree to guides, etc.08:17
froudinformation is norally categorized under the following stages:08:18
froud1. preparation08:18
froud2. installation08:18
froud3. operation08:18
froud4. service08:18
froud5. troubleshooting08:19
froudtry not to merge the two08:19
jsgotangcoyes i noticed that in the manuals i've checked last night08:20
froudwhat ever you do remember the focus of the doc spec08:21
froudit is easy to stray from it08:21
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froudjsgotangco: I must go to meetings08:27
jsgotangcoone thing08:27
froudboy that was a heavy net split08:27
jsgotangcofroud, if i do that scheme that would be a very big manual08:27
froudeach is a seperate manual08:28
jsgotangcoyou sure of this?08:28
jsgotangcoit can be done in one08:28
froudstick to the focus of quick guide08:28
froudyes it can be in one08:28
froudbut it would best be a set08:28
froudsee set element in dtd08:29
jsgotangcook i got it08:29
froudc u later08:29
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jsgotangcohi Kinnison!09:11
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jsgotangcofroud_, u back?09:54
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jsgotangcogyaahhh i need a haircut see you guys later10:15
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mdkehi hypatia 01:06
mdkeTreenaks is called Martijn van de Streek.01:06
mdkei'll put it on the page01:07
mdkehypatia, thanks very much for your thoughts on the list01:17
mdkei'll try and incorporate some of people's ideas into the testing wiki pages in the next few days01:18
hypatiaI will also try and do some sketchpad work.01:26
hypatiawe'll need to bite the bullet eventually though and start editing the real thing.01:27
mdkewell if we develop the new testing Frontpage sufficiently, then it can simply be replaced01:28
mdkehypatia, you know, actually given what people have said on the list about differentiating between User documentation and making separate wikis for Developer and other stuff, I'm actually fairly attracted to the idea of http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/SimpleFrontPage01:39
hypatiaI like that one.01:52
hypatiaBut I'd replace Documentation with Getting started or something.01:52
hypatia"Help us write and translate documentation for Ubuntu." should really be a Community thing.01:53
mdkeyes i agree01:54
mdkei haven't touched that page yet01:55
mdkebut its a start01:55
hypatiaIt does seem to be good start.02:01
hypatiaThen we get the fun of the next level :)02:01
mdkehave you seen the state of http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UserDocumentation ;p02:02
hypatiaWe need a Wiki Love Day.02:03
mdkeor Week02:03
mdkebut the problem is we never know whether the thing is going to be moved or not02:03
hypatiacan't you just move it back? yay for revert wars... ;)02:04
hypatiawho does the moving?02:04
mdkehypatia, i mean moved to a different wiki02:05
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mdkehypatia, i mean moved to a different wiki02:09
mdke(just in case you missed that)02:09
hypatiaOh right.02:13
hypatiaYeah, I heard about that.02:13
hypatiaBut I thought you meant pages moved.02:14
mdkeno that shouldn't be a problem02:14
hypatiaWell, that really ought to be added to the list of stuff we'd like the devel/admin team to consult with us about :)02:14
mdkeyes good point02:14
mdkei bet that is going to be high on the UDU list02:14
hypatialast I heard they were kind of panicing about the amount of work involved in a clean migration, especially of rest content.02:16
mdkemy view is that its wasted effort02:17
hypatiaI don't like either Moin or zwiki, I like MediaWiki.02:20
hypatiaAnd since that's not going to happen (PHP) I think I'll just relax and let other people worry about the choice.02:20
=== mdke nods
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jsgotangcohey hey do i hear wiki love in the air02:24
mdkehey guys, i have something I want to share02:24
mdkeon the italian channel we are dealing with 2 or 3 people a day who have problems caused by adding the marillat repositories specified by ubuntuguide.org02:25
jsgotangcowe hatesesss our wiki even moooree02:25
mdkei like it02:25
jsgotangcoi like wiki but not ours02:25
mdkei like working with what we have ;)02:25
mdkewhat do you guys think about this ubuntuguide.org business02:25
mdkeseems to me that its causing trouble02:25
hypatiaI don't know much about it.02:26
hypatiaIt's third party isn't it?02:26
jsgotangcohe doesn't even communicate as froud as said before02:26
jsgotangcoif you've seen svn there's even a docbook version02:26
mdkehypatia, yes02:26
hypatiaI should have a look at it.02:28
hypatiaAre there useful ideas there for mining?02:28
mdkeits a very comprehensive guide, but dangerous IMO02:28
jsgotangcoit is02:29
hypatiathe website doesn't seem to be responding.02:29
hypatiaI better get to bed.02:29
hypatiagoodnight guys, hoping to participate in some wiki love soon.02:30
jsgotangcomdke, its a good guide at the beginning but the latter parts are just flaky and dangerous02:30
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mdkejsgotangco, does he accept corrections?02:30
jsgotangcoi tried before but he didnt respond to my emails02:31
mdkewell he is mucking up a lot of people's systems ;)02:31
mdkei might write02:31
jsgotangcoi was one of them before02:31
mdkemaybe he listens but doesn't respond02:31
jsgotangcoi hope so02:31
jsgotangcoi was talking to an active forum poster from malaysia and he said the same thing he doesnt respond02:32
abelliohhh everybody ciao .. thank you for the warm welcome02:33
jsgotangcogive us some docteam love02:34
mdkehi abelli 02:34
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abelliwho are you talking about?02:35
jsgotangcomdke, i hope he responds to your email02:39
mdkejsgotangco, i'll write later02:39
mdkeneed to do lots of things today02:39
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mdkejsgotangco, did you see the talk we had with carlos about rosetta?02:39
jsgotangcook i gotta finish my laundry i haven't got anything done yet for my trip02:39
mdkeshit is UDU coming up?02:39
abellimdke: sorry ... 02:39
mdkei need to do that letter to mdz too02:39
jsgotangcoon monday02:39
abellijsgotangco: sorry ..02:40
mdkeabelli, de che02:40
jsgotangcomdke, yeah with carlos, i wouldn't rely on rosetta for now, maybe after breezy but not now02:40
abellimdke: i was saying that ubuntuguide.org contains some debian-policies' breakage about runlevels02:40
mdkejsgotangco, well we're going to try02:40
jsgotangcothat chat log was huge02:40
mdkeabelli, really? that is important02:40
jsgotangcoi spent like reading it half an hour02:40
mdkeabelli, its all over the wiki as well02:40
mdkejsgotangco, we're going to try and get some translations into Hoary as well as Breezy02:41
abellimdke: wiki?02:41
mdkeabelli, in fact I only learnt the proper way to do it recently from Fabio02:41
jsgotangcogood luck im sure carlos can do wonders02:41
abellihuh right .. yes .. the wiki is also broken if talking about runlevels02:42
mdkeabelli, yes02:42
mdkethere was a classic one here: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/StopGnomeFromRestarting02:42
abellimdke: your advice it's not really compliant either actually :)02:43
jsgotangcowe cant stop people from posting stuff in the wiki but i wish we had something like that in mediawiki where we can tag entries as "contestable" or "questionable"02:44
mdkeabelli, feel free to correct02:44
abellimdke: just say .. use ubm :)02:44
mdkeabelli, we need to get that in universe02:45
mdkei have to go now, i've got a class02:45
mdkesee you later02:45
abellihopefully well get it in main as gnome system monitor :)02:46
abelliKinnison: halo02:46
mdkeabelli, well that will be some way away: it needs to go in upstream for that02:46
jsgotangcook im out as well02:46
jsgotangcoabelli, ciao02:46
mdkebye all02:46
abellijsgotangco: im not leaving02:46
abellimdke: lo so.02:46
jsgotangcook im leaving then02:47
Kinnisonabelli: In response to your question from yesterday; have you considered the stuff on www.linitx.com ?02:57
abelliKinnison: let me see02:57
abelliKinnison: no i didnt know this place .. aint this a little expensive?02:59
abellisomething like minitx.com02:59
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jalrncmdke: hi matt05:55
mdkehi jalrnc 05:58
mdkei just walked in now05:58
jalrncrosetta looks good now, thanks06:04
mdkejalrnc, i hope it will work and that we can get it in hoary06:04
jalrncmdke: even if we can't, it's still good to get some work going for breezy06:05
mdkejalrnc, yes indeed06:06
jalrncI'm not a Rosetta expert, but if I wanted to do revisions/corrections to already translated docs, how can I get to them using Rosetta? It seems after a doc is 100% done all I can do is download the PO file...06:07
mdkejalrnc, you need to be a member of the relevant translation group06:07
jalrncoh I see06:07
mdkejalrnc, there doesn't seem to be a portugese one, you could form it06:08
mdkethere is a brazillian one tho ;)06:08
mdke Ubuntu Portuguese Brazilian Translators (ubuntu-l10n-pt-br)06:08
jalrncsure, I can form one based on our current translation group in the loco team06:08
mdkejalrnc, yeah i recommend you do that06:08
mdkejalrnc, just ask in #launchpad or send carlos an email06:08
jalrnchow can I do it?06:08
mdkeit is possible to create the team yourself, but I believe that they prefer you to ask them06:10
jalrncI'll ask them :)06:10
jalrncmdke: can you send me Carlos' email address?06:26
mdkejalrnc, rosetta-users@lists.ubuntu.com ;)06:26
jalrncthanks :)06:26
mdkejalrnc, but he uses irc, so you can ask him in there if you prefer06:26
jalrnche looks idle, but I'll try06:26
mdkejalrnc, note: that email address is a public list06:26
mdkejalrnc, just say his name, and he'll get back to you06:27
jalrncyep, I noticed :)06:27
jalrncmdke: done, we have a team now06:53
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froudhey enrico08:49
enricofroud: hey!08:49
froudwelcome back dude08:49
froudlot sof happenings08:50
froudmuch confusion08:51
enricooh, no08:53
=== enrico doesn't like confusion
froudwell it is good08:53
froudlots of stuff going on and people are doing things08:54
froudsolving problems co-ordinating, giving ideas08:54
froudits great08:54
froudhealthy debates08:54
enricothis is nice!08:54
froudbut no decisions as yet08:54
froudso much stuff is still in the air08:55
mdkeyo enrico 08:55
froudenrico: one ting you need to know08:55
froudwe will be accepting new translations to the hoary tag08:55
froudand patches08:55
froudthis may mean you will hav eto udate debs in tag08:56
enricoshouldn't it be a hoary branch instead of a tag?08:56
enricofroud: sure: just tell me if I have to do a new build+upload08:56
mdkeah thanks man08:56
froudyeah, we have, with mdke, mostly solved integration to rosetta issues08:57
enricoSo Rosetta does documents now as well?08:57
froudmdke: I am in the process of renaming the po files08:57
froudenrico: yes08:57
mdkeenrico, they are in there, we need to see if it will be successful08:57
froudenrico: a bit rough, but workable08:57
froudenrico: from our part I think at least two of us understand the full issues08:58
froudmdke and i08:58
enricoI guess that being in there will make the rough spots visible and fixable08:58
froudsome of the current problems are already bugs for them08:59
enricoI'm incredibly happy to see that everything goes on without me!09:00
froudyes we get through, with difficulty09:00
froudsome of the team understand now why we are on about putting in place as many automated processes as possible09:01
enricowe should find a moment and put down some "lessons learned"09:01
froudsuch as09:01
mdkeenrico, we missed you tho09:01
enricoWell, I have two of them:09:01
enrico1) Let new people start with something easy, even if trivial and boring.  That allows to concentrate on getting used to the others without being distracted too much by the task09:02
froudmdke: we need to update http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepl18n09:02
mdkefroud, i will do it, i have writing an email to the list on my ToDo list09:02
mdkefroud, gimme a couple of days k?09:03
enrico2) Give constant feedback: noone should ever ask themselves: "am I really doing something useful?"09:03
froudI agree strongly with p 209:03
enricoand of course, as people get to know the rest of the team, allow them to move to things they like better, and trust them09:03
enricoas trust will have built in the meantime09:04
enricoI found these two "rules" to apply in almost every volunteer place09:05
enricoMy girlfriend would like me to write a paper about it :)09:05
enricoHowever, a case study on our "preparing hoary" experience, would have some great stuff inside09:05
froudenrico: when is elmo upgrading to svn 1.1?09:06
enricofroud: I don't know.  I thought he had done it already?09:06
froudhe did not post anything09:06
froudand svn did not go down09:06
froudenrico: btw we now have language specific under control in svn09:08
froudthe new entity language works well09:08
enricofroud: did you deploy the recursive makefiles, then?09:09
froudnot yet, I need your help there, I am a bit lost09:10
froudI also need to update i18n.sh now because of file naming convention change for po files09:10
froudenrico: I need to find som etime to study it more09:11
froudand I need to ask you questions09:11
froudnot tonight though09:12
froudjust got back from lectures09:12
enricofroud: feel free to ask09:12
froudmdke: new po file naming convention is now in svn09:13
froudenrico: do you think we can go without yelp for breezy?09:13
enricofroud: I think that's a question for mdz09:14
froudenrico: here is an idea I have for our help system based on a web browser09:14
enricofroud: oh, yes, I remember your plans09:15
enricohowever, I'd be careful with it09:15
enricoI think Ubuntu has an interest in not diverging too much with upstreams09:15
enricoone more divergence == one more thing to maintain09:15
enricoand also09:15
enricoone more divergence == one upstream author looking at Ubuntu puzzled09:16
enrico(although I'm not sure about this last one)09:16
froudI understand, but it seems every corner I turn that yelp is holding back so many great things we can do09:16
froudand users are complaining09:16
enricofroud: understood.  Have you tried discussing your proposal with Sean?09:16
enricoAnd anyway, I think that making a list of things held back and user complaints to attach to your proposal can definitely help09:17
froudwhich Sean (GNOME09:17
enricofroud: sorry: Shaun09:17
froudyeah, but he does not see it as being done anytime soon09:17
froudlack of coders09:17
froudwe have had some very intersting critique from users on help systems09:18
froudI dont think they fall in Shaun's objectives09:19
enricoHow about doing a HoaryHelpSucks wiki page and dumping criticisms and ideas there?09:19
froudremember I am not saying we wont install gnome help and yelp, only that Ubuntu docs wil not be in yelp09:19
froudwe have it in th elist09:19
froudand some pages on access and structure09:20
froudIn the last few days quite a few people have been commenting on list09:20
froudwhich is good09:20
froudI did not realize we had so many subscribers09:20
froudsuddenly they are coming out of the wood work09:21
enricofroud: have you got enough simple jobs ready to give out? :)09:21
froudnot really, I have some, but not enough because there is indecision09:21
froudabout who the audience is, what the structures should be09:22
froudshould or shouldn't have a faq like we do now09:22
froudtechnically, if we wing it, we have lots to do09:22
froudthe question is should we wing it, or discuss and plan first09:23
enricofroud: what do you mean with "wing" ?09:23
froudgo by the "seat-of-the-pants"09:23
froudguess and pray09:23
froudthere is some work happening09:24
enricowell, at the very beginning we all tried to put down some organization for the docteam09:24
enricoit didn't lead to much, except talking and talking09:24
froudjs is hacking the kubuntu kwick guide09:24
enricoit went better when we got one goal (namely, the QuickGuide)09:24
froudbut this tme I think we have committers09:24
enricothen the work kind of self-organized09:24
froudyes, but we got slated on the quick guide09:25
enricoyes, the group is larger09:25
froudI am hacking the kubuntu/gubuntu insallation guide09:25
froudcorey is meant to be doing the faq guide, but he has lost his commit ability as he lost his keys09:26
froudsome people have been doing admin stuff09:26
enricooh, that's unfortunate09:26
froudmdke and js have helped with gettinglanguage support right09:27
froudso stuff is happening09:27
froudbut no real serious writing09:27
froudat present you may have seen lots of list discussion09:28
froudI think user guide should be a go, I , or anyone else need to take hornbecks great out line from wiki and get people started on it09:29
froudI think I can get thi soutline in svn before weekend09:30
enricoI guess you could do an outlike in docbook, with the status="outline" attributes, then write some firestarted chapters, then help people getting the first patches coming09:31
froudOk, wil see what I can do09:32
jjessewow w/ work being so crazy i feel so lost as to what the current state of documentation is09:33
froudjjesse: hi, yeah kinda hectic with me to09:33
froudjjesse: just got a big contract do09:34
froudhey I am now dead tired an dam off to cuddle in bobo land09:34
jjessewe are deploying 100 phones, new Cisco VoIP system this week09:34
froudh he he I will be installing an Asterisk PBX next month with SIP soft phones09:35
jjessei've heard really good things about Asterisk, haven't had a chance to look at it09:36
=== enrico uses a SIP soft phone to call his girlfriend in the Nederlands
enricoveery convenient: saves my day! :)09:36
jjessewhere is the Nederlands ??? :)09:36
froudjjesse: very cool, bit in the cd and it does it all for you09:36
enricojjesse: Netherlands?09:36
enricojjesse: .nl :)09:36
froudyou just need to undertand how to configure PBX systems09:36
froudwell dudes, I is off, c ya09:37
jjessefourd i've done very little pbx stuff, mostly routers/switches and now founds :)09:37
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