=== Kinnison [~dsilvers@haddenham.pepperfish.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Kinnison [~dsilvers@haddenham.pepperfish.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Kinnison [~dsilvers@haddenham.pepperfish.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:12] good morning! === EricNeon [~ericneon@222.65.66.10] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:17] hi EricNeon [03:17] morning jsgotangco [03:25] hello jsgotangco [03:33] whoa the chat log was steaming... [03:34] yea, it's pretty big [03:34] I see you had a question about alt text [03:34] yeah [03:35] use textobject element for that [03:35] hmm ok ill check that on the dtd [03:36] http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/textobject.html === sladen [paul@starsky.19inch.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:39] ok i get it now i use mediaobject instead [03:41] mediaobject instead of what? [03:42] inlinemediaobject [03:44] you can use textobject in both mediaobject and inlinemediaobject [03:45] hmmm ok ill just experiment then [03:47] mediaobject is formatted as a displayed block, inlinemediaobject is formatted inline [03:49] you put textobject at same level as imageobject within mediaobject [03:49] but you must put textobject after imageobject [03:50] if the system can't find the image, it puts the text instead [03:50] is inside then [03:51] yes. I will show you example from quickguide... [03:51] [03:51] [03:51] [03:51] [03:51] [03:51] [03:51] Ubuntu Hoary Desktop [03:51] [03:51] [03:51] [03:51] ahhh [03:52] [03:52] [03:52] [03:52] [03:52] [03:52] Welcome to Kubuntu Linux [03:52] [03:52] [03:54] if you really want kubuntu-final.png to be inline, then yes [03:55] ok ill try some variations [03:56] yea. you never know how yelp will handle it. [03:58] yeah i noticed that when I use inlinemediaobject, it uses the same image in the navigation bar below === Liz [~Liz@fixed-203-87-27-63.nsw.chariot.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:44] greetings all === jalrnc [~joao@ip68-0-220-224.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jalrnc [~joao@ip68-0-220-224.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #ubuntu-doc [] [04:53] hi Liz [04:54] hiya jsgotangco [05:21] brb. reboot === Liz [~Liz@fixed-203-87-27-63.nsw.chariot.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:46] what do you guys think of Kubuntu Kwick Kompendium (aka guide) sound [08:13] hi froud [08:13] morning [08:13] I see you got started with kwick guide [08:14] ive done loads now [08:14] ive yet to commit [08:14] i dont think its a quick guide anymore [08:14] I was just about to say [08:14] no matter put it in [08:15] lets see it === EricNeon [~ericneon@203.148.3.94] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:15] because ive been doing the tree and i think i can merge some docs [08:15] you never know we may reuse parts [08:15] that's why its now the Kubuntu Kwick Kompendium [08:15] haha [08:15] expalins [08:16] explain [08:16] i can probably merge kuserguide to this guide [08:16] the kuserguide can be lifted from existing kde docs [08:17] but the first part of the manual can be the quick guide [08:17] that has 3 audiences [08:17] 1. newbies [08:17] 2. switchers [08:17] 3. veterans [08:17] from the 3 sections i can expand the tree to guides, etc. [08:18] information is norally categorized under the following stages: [08:18] 1. preparation [08:18] 2. installation [08:18] 3. operation [08:18] 4. service [08:19] 5. troubleshooting [08:19] try not to merge the two [08:20] yes i noticed that in the manuals i've checked last night [08:21] what ever you do remember the focus of the doc spec [08:21] ok [08:21] it is easy to stray from it === netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> tolkien.freenode.net === EricNeon [~ericneon@203.148.3.94] has joined #ubuntu-doc === boglot [~logbot@gw.workaround.org] has joined #ubuntu-doc === asw [~asw@node-423a728a.bos.onnet.us.uu.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Skywind [~Skywind@218.94.37.185] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Kinnison [~dsilvers@haddenham.pepperfish.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === sladen [paul@starsky.19inch.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mvirkkil [~mvirkkil@vipunen.hut.fi] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mdke [~matt@mdke.user] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud [~froud@ndn-165-147-115.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === boglot [~logbot@gw.workaround.org] has joined #ubuntu-doc === asw [~asw@node-423a728a.bos.onnet.us.uu.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Skywind [~Skywind@218.94.37.185] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Kinnison [~dsilvers@haddenham.pepperfish.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === sladen [paul@starsky.19inch.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === EricNeon [~ericneon@203.148.3.94] has joined #ubuntu-doc === #ubuntu-doc [freenode-info] please register your nickname...don't forget to auto-identify! http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup [08:27] jsgotangco: I must go to meetings [08:27] ok [08:27] one thing [08:27] boy that was a heavy net split [08:27] y [08:27] froud, if i do that scheme that would be a very big manual [08:28] each is a seperate manual [08:28] hmm [08:28] you sure of this? [08:28] it can be done in one [08:28] stick to the focus of quick guide [08:28] yes it can be in one [08:28] but it would best be a set [08:29] see set element in dtd [08:29] ok i got it [08:29] c u later === maskie [~maskie@196-30-109-120.uudial.uunet.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:05] Morning [09:11] hi Kinnison! === froud_ [~froud@ndn-165-147-115.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:54] froud_, u back? === Liz [~Liz@fixed-203-87-27-63.nsw.chariot.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:15] gyaahhh i need a haircut see you guys later === Liz [~Liz@fixed-203-87-27-63.nsw.chariot.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [~corey@24.68.134.11] has joined #ubuntu-doc === hypatia [~mary@adsl-66-203.swiftdsl.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:06] hi hypatia [01:06] Treenaks is called Martijn van de Streek. [01:07] i'll put it on the page [01:13] thanks [01:17] hypatia, thanks very much for your thoughts on the list [01:18] i'll try and incorporate some of people's ideas into the testing wiki pages in the next few days [01:26] I will also try and do some sketchpad work. [01:26] :) [01:27] we'll need to bite the bullet eventually though and start editing the real thing. [01:28] well if we develop the new testing Frontpage sufficiently, then it can simply be replaced [01:39] hypatia, you know, actually given what people have said on the list about differentiating between User documentation and making separate wikis for Developer and other stuff, I'm actually fairly attracted to the idea of http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/SimpleFrontPage [01:52] I like that one. [01:52] But I'd replace Documentation with Getting started or something. [01:53] "Help us write and translate documentation for Ubuntu." should really be a Community thing. [01:54] yes i agree [01:55] i haven't touched that page yet [01:55] but its a start [02:01] It does seem to be good start. [02:01] Then we get the fun of the next level :) [02:02] yeah [02:02] have you seen the state of http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UserDocumentation ;p [02:03] Wow. [02:03] We need a Wiki Love Day. [02:03] or Week [02:03] but the problem is we never know whether the thing is going to be moved or not [02:04] can't you just move it back? yay for revert wars... ;) [02:04] who does the moving? [02:05] hypatia, i mean moved to a different wiki === hypatia [~mary@adsl-66-203.swiftdsl.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:09] hypatia, i mean moved to a different wiki [02:09] (just in case you missed that) [02:13] Oh right. [02:13] Yeah, I heard about that. [02:14] But I thought you meant pages moved. [02:14] no that shouldn't be a problem [02:14] Well, that really ought to be added to the list of stuff we'd like the devel/admin team to consult with us about :) [02:14] yes good point [02:14] i bet that is going to be high on the UDU list [02:16] last I heard they were kind of panicing about the amount of work involved in a clean migration, especially of rest content. [02:17] my view is that its wasted effort [02:20] I don't like either Moin or zwiki, I like MediaWiki. [02:20] And since that's not going to happen (PHP) I think I'll just relax and let other people worry about the choice. === mdke nods === jsgotangco [DaWorm@105-nas1.dial-pool.digitelone.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:24] hey hey do i hear wiki love in the air [02:24] hey guys, i have something I want to share [02:25] on the italian channel we are dealing with 2 or 3 people a day who have problems caused by adding the marillat repositories specified by ubuntuguide.org [02:25] we hatesesss our wiki even moooree [02:25] i like it [02:25] i like wiki but not ours [02:25] i like working with what we have ;) [02:25] what do you guys think about this ubuntuguide.org business [02:25] seems to me that its causing trouble [02:26] I don't know much about it. [02:26] It's third party isn't it? [02:26] he doesn't even communicate as froud as said before [02:26] if you've seen svn there's even a docbook version [02:26] hypatia, yes [02:28] I should have a look at it. [02:28] Are there useful ideas there for mining? [02:28] its a very comprehensive guide, but dangerous IMO [02:29] it is [02:29] the website doesn't seem to be responding. [02:29] I better get to bed. [02:30] goodnight guys, hoping to participate in some wiki love soon. [02:30] mdke, its a good guide at the beginning but the latter parts are just flaky and dangerous === abelli [~john@97599caccf3aa574.node.tor] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:30] jsgotangco, does he accept corrections? [02:31] i tried before but he didnt respond to my emails [02:31] charming [02:31] well he is mucking up a lot of people's systems ;) [02:31] i might write [02:31] i was one of them before [02:31] maybe he listens but doesn't respond [02:31] i hope so [02:32] i was talking to an active forum poster from malaysia and he said the same thing he doesnt respond [02:33] ohhh everybody ciao .. thank you for the warm welcome [02:34] give us some docteam love [02:34] hi abelli [02:35] smack&&slurp === mdke recoils [02:35] who are you talking about? [02:36] ubuntuguide.org [02:39] mdke, i hope he responds to your email [02:39] jsgotangco, i'll write later [02:39] need to do lots of things today === abelli [~john@eb771308cfe11b6d.node.tor] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:39] jsgotangco, did you see the talk we had with carlos about rosetta? [02:39] ok i gotta finish my laundry i haven't got anything done yet for my trip [02:39] shit is UDU coming up? [02:39] yeah [02:39] mdke: sorry ... [02:39] i need to do that letter to mdz too [02:39] on monday [02:40] jsgotangco: sorry .. [02:40] abelli, de che [02:40] mdke, yeah with carlos, i wouldn't rely on rosetta for now, maybe after breezy but not now [02:40] mdke: i was saying that ubuntuguide.org contains some debian-policies' breakage about runlevels [02:40] jsgotangco, well we're going to try [02:40] that chat log was huge [02:40] abelli, really? that is important [02:40] i spent like reading it half an hour [02:40] abelli, its all over the wiki as well [02:41] jsgotangco, we're going to try and get some translations into Hoary as well as Breezy [02:41] mdke: wiki? [02:41] abelli, in fact I only learnt the proper way to do it recently from Fabio [02:41] good luck im sure carlos can do wonders [02:42] huh right .. yes .. the wiki is also broken if talking about runlevels [02:42] abelli, yes [02:42] there was a classic one here: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/StopGnomeFromRestarting [02:43] mdke: your advice it's not really compliant either actually :) [02:44] we cant stop people from posting stuff in the wiki but i wish we had something like that in mediawiki where we can tag entries as "contestable" or "questionable" [02:44] abelli, feel free to correct [02:44] mdke: just say .. use ubm :) [02:45] abelli, we need to get that in universe [02:45] i have to go now, i've got a class [02:45] :/ [02:45] ciao [02:45] see you later [02:45] ciao [02:46] hopefully well get it in main as gnome system monitor :) [02:46] Kinnison: halo [02:46] abelli, well that will be some way away: it needs to go in upstream for that [02:46] ok im out as well [02:46] abelli, ciao [02:46] bye all [02:46] jsgotangco: im not leaving [02:46] mdke: lo so. [02:47] ahh [02:47] ok im leaving then [02:47] ciao [02:48] ciao [02:57] abelli: In response to your question from yesterday; have you considered the stuff on www.linitx.com ? [02:57] Kinnison: let me see [02:59] Kinnison: no i didnt know this place .. aint this a little expensive? [02:59] something like minitx.com === jjesse [~jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === abelli [~john@6ff56ae4f42973de.node.tor] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jalrnc [~joao@ip68-0-220-224.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:55] mdke: hi matt [05:58] hi jalrnc [05:58] i just walked in now [05:59] sup [06:04] hi [06:04] rosetta looks good now, thanks [06:04] cool [06:04] jalrnc, i hope it will work and that we can get it in hoary [06:05] mdke: even if we can't, it's still good to get some work going for breezy [06:06] jalrnc, yes indeed [06:07] I'm not a Rosetta expert, but if I wanted to do revisions/corrections to already translated docs, how can I get to them using Rosetta? It seems after a doc is 100% done all I can do is download the PO file... [06:07] jalrnc, you need to be a member of the relevant translation group [06:07] oh I see [06:08] jalrnc, there doesn't seem to be a portugese one, you could form it [06:08] there is a brazillian one tho ;) [06:08] Ubuntu Portuguese Brazilian Translators (ubuntu-l10n-pt-br) [06:08] sure, I can form one based on our current translation group in the loco team [06:08] jalrnc, yeah i recommend you do that [06:08] jalrnc, just ask in #launchpad or send carlos an email [06:08] how can I do it? [06:09] sure [06:10] it is possible to create the team yourself, but I believe that they prefer you to ask them [06:10] I'll ask them :) [06:26] mdke: can you send me Carlos' email address? [06:26] jalrnc, rosetta-users@lists.ubuntu.com ;) [06:26] thanks :) [06:26] jalrnc, but he uses irc, so you can ask him in there if you prefer [06:26] he looks idle, but I'll try [06:26] jalrnc, note: that email address is a public list [06:27] jalrnc, just say his name, and he'll get back to you [06:27] yep, I noticed :) [06:53] mdke: done, we have a team now [06:53] good === enrico [~enrico@enrico.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-doc === maskie [~maskie@196-30-108-224.uudial.uunet.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:49] hey enrico [08:49] froud: hey! [08:49] welcome back dude [08:50] lot sof happenings [08:51] much confusion [08:53] oh, no === enrico doesn't like confusion [08:53] well it is good [08:54] lots of stuff going on and people are doing things [08:54] solving problems co-ordinating, giving ideas [08:54] its great [08:54] healthy debates [08:54] this is nice! [08:54] but no decisions as yet [08:55] so much stuff is still in the air [08:55] yo enrico [08:55] enrico: one ting you need to know [08:55] we will be accepting new translations to the hoary tag [08:55] and patches [08:56] this may mean you will hav eto udate debs in tag [08:56] shouldn't it be a hoary branch instead of a tag? [08:56] froud: sure: just tell me if I have to do a new build+upload [08:56] ah thanks man [08:57] yeah, we have, with mdke, mostly solved integration to rosetta issues [08:57] So Rosetta does documents now as well? [08:57] mdke: I am in the process of renaming the po files [08:57] enrico: yes [08:57] AWESOME! [08:57] enrico, they are in there, we need to see if it will be successful [08:57] enrico: a bit rough, but workable [08:58] enrico: from our part I think at least two of us understand the full issues [08:58] mdke and i [08:58] I guess that being in there will make the rough spots visible and fixable [08:58] yes [08:59] some of the current problems are already bugs for them [09:00] I'm incredibly happy to see that everything goes on without me! [09:00] yes we get through, with difficulty [09:01] some of the team understand now why we are on about putting in place as many automated processes as possible [09:01] we should find a moment and put down some "lessons learned" [09:01] such as [09:01] enrico, we missed you tho [09:01] Well, I have two of them: [09:02] 1) Let new people start with something easy, even if trivial and boring. That allows to concentrate on getting used to the others without being distracted too much by the task [09:02] mdke: we need to update http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepl18n [09:02] froud, i will do it, i have writing an email to the list on my ToDo list [09:03] froud, gimme a couple of days k? [09:03] 2) Give constant feedback: noone should ever ask themselves: "am I really doing something useful?" [09:03] I agree strongly with p 2 [09:03] and of course, as people get to know the rest of the team, allow them to move to things they like better, and trust them [09:04] as trust will have built in the meantime [09:04] yep [09:05] I found these two "rules" to apply in almost every volunteer place [09:05] My girlfriend would like me to write a paper about it :) [09:05] However, a case study on our "preparing hoary" experience, would have some great stuff inside [09:06] enrico: when is elmo upgrading to svn 1.1? [09:06] froud: I don't know. I thought he had done it already? [09:06] he did not post anything [09:06] and svn did not go down [09:08] enrico: btw we now have language specific under control in svn [09:08] the new entity language works well [09:09] froud: did you deploy the recursive makefiles, then? [09:10] not yet, I need your help there, I am a bit lost [09:10] I also need to update i18n.sh now because of file naming convention change for po files [09:11] enrico: I need to find som etime to study it more [09:11] and I need to ask you questions [09:12] not tonight though [09:12] just got back from lectures [09:12] froud: feel free to ask [09:13] mdke: new po file naming convention is now in svn [09:13] cool [09:13] enrico: do you think we can go without yelp for breezy? [09:14] froud: I think that's a question for mdz [09:14] enrico: here is an idea I have for our help system based on a web browser [09:14] http://www.inwords.co.za/helpsys.png [09:15] froud: oh, yes, I remember your plans [09:15] however, I'd be careful with it [09:15] explain [09:15] I think Ubuntu has an interest in not diverging too much with upstreams [09:15] one more divergence == one more thing to maintain [09:15] and also [09:16] one more divergence == one upstream author looking at Ubuntu puzzled [09:16] (although I'm not sure about this last one) [09:16] I understand, but it seems every corner I turn that yelp is holding back so many great things we can do [09:16] and users are complaining [09:16] froud: understood. Have you tried discussing your proposal with Sean? [09:17] And anyway, I think that making a list of things held back and user complaints to attach to your proposal can definitely help [09:17] which Sean (GNOME [09:17] froud: sorry: Shaun [09:17] yeah, but he does not see it as being done anytime soon [09:17] lack of coders [09:18] we have had some very intersting critique from users on help systems [09:19] I dont think they fall in Shaun's objectives [09:19] How about doing a HoaryHelpSucks wiki page and dumping criticisms and ideas there? [09:19] remember I am not saying we wont install gnome help and yelp, only that Ubuntu docs wil not be in yelp [09:19] right [09:19] we have it in th elist [09:20] and some pages on access and structure [09:20] In the last few days quite a few people have been commenting on list [09:20] which is good [09:20] I did not realize we had so many subscribers [09:20] :-) [09:21] suddenly they are coming out of the wood work [09:21] froud: have you got enough simple jobs ready to give out? :) [09:21] not really, I have some, but not enough because there is indecision [09:22] about who the audience is, what the structures should be [09:22] should or shouldn't have a faq like we do now [09:22] etc [09:22] technically, if we wing it, we have lots to do [09:23] the question is should we wing it, or discuss and plan first [09:23] froud: what do you mean with "wing" ? [09:23] "seat-of-the-pants" [09:23] go by the "seat-of-the-pants" [09:23] guess and pray [09:24] there is some work happening [09:24] well, at the very beginning we all tried to put down some organization for the docteam [09:24] it didn't lead to much, except talking and talking [09:24] js is hacking the kubuntu kwick guide [09:24] yes [09:24] it went better when we got one goal (namely, the QuickGuide) [09:24] but this tme I think we have committers [09:24] then the work kind of self-organized [09:25] yes, but we got slated on the quick guide [09:25] yes, the group is larger [09:25] I am hacking the kubuntu/gubuntu insallation guide [09:26] corey is meant to be doing the faq guide, but he has lost his commit ability as he lost his keys [09:26] some people have been doing admin stuff [09:26] oh, that's unfortunate [09:27] mdke and js have helped with gettinglanguage support right [09:27] so stuff is happening [09:27] but no real serious writing [09:28] at present you may have seen lots of list discussion [09:29] I think user guide should be a go, I , or anyone else need to take hornbecks great out line from wiki and get people started on it [09:30] I think I can get thi soutline in svn before weekend [09:31] I guess you could do an outlike in docbook, with the status="outline" attributes, then write some firestarted chapters, then help people getting the first patches coming [09:32] Ok, wil see what I can do [09:33] wow w/ work being so crazy i feel so lost as to what the current state of documentation is [09:33] jjesse: hi, yeah kinda hectic with me to [09:34] jjesse: just got a big contract do [09:34] hey I am now dead tired an dam off to cuddle in bobo land [09:34] we are deploying 100 phones, new Cisco VoIP system this week [09:35] h he he I will be installing an Asterisk PBX next month with SIP soft phones [09:36] i've heard really good things about Asterisk, haven't had a chance to look at it === enrico uses a SIP soft phone to call his girlfriend in the Nederlands [09:36] veery convenient: saves my day! :) [09:36] where is the Nederlands ??? :) [09:36] jjesse: very cool, bit in the cd and it does it all for you [09:36] jjesse: Netherlands? [09:36] jjesse: .nl :) [09:36] you just need to undertand how to configure PBX systems [09:37]